March 11, 2025 • 24 mins
In episode 126 of the Teaching Tax Flow podcast, hosts John Tripolsky and Chris Picciurro break down the intricacies of Required Minimum Distributions (RMDs), a mandatory withdrawal policy associated with certain retirement accounts. Initially introduced under the Revenue Act of 1978, RMDs dictate that account holders aged 73 and above must withdraw a specified amount from their tax-deferred accounts to ensure that money enters the taxable revenue stream. As tax laws evolve, understanding these distributions is crucial for avoiding penalties and optimizing your tax strategy.
Chris emphasizes the historical context and detailed mechanics behind RMDs, explaining how changes through the Secure Acts of 2019 and 2022 have adjusted the age and conditions for these withdrawals. He stresses the importance of learning and planning for these necessary withdrawals, as failing to do so results in significant penalties. Chris outlines strategic approaches for dealing with RMDs, such as Qualified Charitable Distributions (QCDs) and Roth conversions, which can offer tax advantages or reduce RMD totals. His insights into navigating the financial complexities highlight the importance of proactive tax planning to manage and minimize tax liabilities effectively.
Key Takeaways:
- Understanding RMDs: Required Minimum Distributions are mandatory withdrawals imposed on owners of tax-deferred accounts at a certain age, with penalties for non-compliance.
- Secure Act Changes: The Secure Acts of 2019 and 2022 have adjusted RMD rules, changing the age requirement and enhancing penalty relief.
- Strategic Tax Planning: Engaging in proactive strategies such as Roth conversions and Qualified Charitable Distributions can minimize the tax impact of RMDs.
- The Importance of Planning: Early planning for retirement distributions is essential to control when and how much tax is owed, emphasizing the value of professional advice.
- Implications of AI on Enforcement: Technological advancements, such as AI, are expected to increase the IRS's ability to enforce RMD compliance efficiently.
Notable Quotes:
- "The IRS says, you can't just kick the can down the road your entire life here. At some point, someone's got to pay tax on all this tax-deferred growth."
- "Remember, if you do nothing, you're going to be required to take these distributions out at whatever the government's tax rate is whenever you take it out."
- "You do not want to pay taxes twice. Knowledge and planning are crucial to avoid unnecessary payment."
- "We say either you pick your tax or the IRS picks your tax. If you do your planning, you're picking the tax."
- "Work with a tax professional to remedy and try to not pay the penalty."
Resources:
- Teaching Tax Flow Podcast: Gain insights into tax strategies by visiting TTF's YouTube Channel for educational content.
- National Association of Tax Professionals: Engage with tax expertise through resources and community offerings.
- Secure Act Information: Explore documents and updates regarding the Secure Acts of 2019 and 2022 for detailed legislative changes impacting retirement account rules.
Listeners are encouraged to explore the full episode for a comprehensive understanding of RMDs and to continue engaging with Teaching Tax Flow's insightful content to enhance their financial acumen. Stay tuned for future episodes that delve deep into the nuances of tax strategy and financial growth.
Episode Sponsor:
The Mortgage Shop
- (00:02) - Understanding Required Minimum Distributions and Their Implication
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Tripolsky (00:02):
Hey, everybody, and welcome back to the Teaching
Tax Flow podcast today, episode126. We are looking at RMDs.
That's right. Another acronymfrom the Teaching Tax Flow
world. But But before we diveinto this one, let's take a
brief moment as always and thankour episode sponsor.
Disclaimer (00:21):
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(00:43):
sent you.
John Tripolsky (00:47):
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Teaching Tax
Full podcast. Today, as youheard in the intro and hopefully
you read in the show notes,we're looking at RMDs. So it's
not EFTs, nothing with all theseother acronyms that we always
bring out, RMDs. So what exactlydoes that mean?
We're gonna get into it. ChrisPacquero, welcome back, sir. How
are we doing today?
Chris Picciurro (01:06):
I'm doing great. How are you doing today?
John Tripolsky (01:08):
I'm doing good, man. I feel good that we are
going to decipher another,acronym here for these Yeah.
Because it's almost like when weget caught up with them, and I
think I know all of them, it'slike, oh, here comes another
one. They just, like, fly in,you know, out of the sky and and
kinda land on my shoulder. Sothis is a good one.
So let's let's look at theserequired minimum distributions,
(01:30):
and really, obviously, what theyare, but who they apply to and,
you know, just a full onunderstanding discussion around
this.
Chris Picciurro (01:36):
Yes. Our required minimum distributions
are, per not, you know, we thinkabout them in general, and we're
gonna jump into this, ispertaining to people in their
seventies. However, they couldpertain to people at any age
depending on if they're abeneficiary of a retirement
account or something like that.So, first, we're gonna talk
about the kind of the history ofrequired minimum distributions,
(01:58):
and then we're gonna look at thewhat the current rules are for
for 2020, 04/2025, deadlines,you know, the and, and then, you
know, John, this teaching taxflow. We're gonna take a couple
minutes to provide, people thatare tangling with RMDs with some
tax planning opportunities, andthen just some just some, you
(02:21):
know, just some thoughts movingforward.
But, let's let's before we jumpinto RMDs or remember, required
and minimum distributions. Whatan RMD is is it is it's a
requirement for someone that hasmoney in a pretax account. So
let's call let's say an IRA,individual retirement account,
(02:42):
that you are required to takethat money out of the account at
some point. Now let's thinkabout this. When the money was
put into the IRA, 99% of thetime, maybe 99.9% of the time,
it is you get a tax deductionfor it or it goes into your
account pretax.
So, like, a four zero one kplan, you're putting that money
in pretax. You're not paying afederal income tax on the money
(03:05):
that you put into the retirementaccount. So ultimately, you get
a you either get a deduction forit or it's going in pretax. So
there's a big benefit on thefront end of these retirement
accounts. The money then growstax deferred, there's a
difference between tax deferredand tax free, but as it grows,
it grows tax deferred, and thenat some point when you take the
money out of the account, it'staxable at that time.
(03:29):
So let's say you put a hundreddollars into an IRA, John, the
hundred dollars grew to be worth$400. As that growth occurs,
you're not paying tax on it. Youcould even sell mutual funds,
bonds, stocks, real estate,whatever within that IRA and not
pay any tax on it because it'sin the IRA. Now that hundred
(03:50):
dollars grew tax deferred to$400. You go take that $400 out,
you're gonna pay tax on that$400 of whatever your tax rate
is the year you take it out.
So the IRS I mean, that's a hugebenefit to get a tax deduction
and then that tax deferredtreatment. So the IRS says,
remember one of our three lawsof teaching tax flow, Your tax
(04:12):
agencies are your involuntarybusiness partners. So the IRS
says, look. You can't just kickthe can down the road your
entire life here. At some point,someone's gotta pay tax on all
this tax deferred growth, allthis money that's sitting in
these retirement accounts thatno one's paid tax on, and
someone got a tax benefit.
So this is a good one.
John Tripolsky (04:33):
Way to say it too because it's it's almost
like they're coming up saying,alright. Alright, buddy. You've
you've reaped the benefits forso long, but time to take that
cash and put it back out intothe ecosphere. Like, quit quit
ordering that money. At somepoint.
Chris Picciurro (04:47):
Go through our tax system again because right
now it's on the sidelines of thetax system. So this start I
mean, the the original requiredminimum distributions were,
introduced back, John, beforeyou were even born. And I was I
was probably in diapers. And youknow what? I probably had a I
probably had a sweet head ofhair at the time, the revenue
act of 1978.
(05:08):
Alright? And, you know, and thatthat was when required minimum
distributions were, were werestarted. We had a big tax reform
act in 1986. John, you like tomake jokes about my age. I was
not practicing, tax in 1986.
I was 11 years old, and I wasrunning a little, baseball card,
(05:28):
outfit out of my out of mybasement.
Disclaimer (05:31):
A little a
John Tripolsky (05:32):
little operation. Right? Were you
paying tax on the income fromthe the baseball card? It was a
hobby. Sir?
Disclaimer (05:37):
Okay.
Chris Picciurro (05:38):
It was a hobby. Okay? So in 02/2019, the Secure
Act raised the required minimumdistribution age to 70 from 70
to 72. And in 2022, secure twopoint o act. Oh, yeah.
Guess what? We have a lot ofcontent on the teaching tax
flow, YouTube channel about thisstuff. Raise the RMDH to 73, and
(06:02):
then eventually 75. What doesthat mean? It's at that age, if
you own an IRA, that you have tobegin taking money out of the
account.
And there are significantpenalties if you fail to make a
required minimum distribution.We're gonna touch on that also
because the IRS got a littlefriendlier, a lot a little
(06:24):
gentler on those penalties. ButI I mean, real story, John, I
had someone in the teaching taxlaw community, a financial
advisor, reach out to me andsay, I've got a little
situation. And we talked to a ataxpayer. They are mature age.
Their spouse passed away, andthey were required to make these
(06:45):
minimum distributions, and theyhave not made these minimum
distributions for nine years. Sothat's a sticky, sticky
situation. Oh, yeah. So yeah. Soall the way
John Tripolsky (06:57):
coming in and saying, you know what? We
require you to take these. Ifyou don't, you're gonna pay us
some way or another by way offines, and rightfully so, I
guess. Right?
Chris Picciurro (07:05):
So in general, anyone 73 or older are required
to make take distributions fromtheir tax deferred accounts. Tax
deferred four zero one k's,IRAs, four zero three b,
etcetera. With a secured twopoint o act, we no longer have
to take RMDs out of Roths. Thatmakes sense. Right?
And that's why we talk about thepower of tax free income and
growth and why a Roth IRA couldbe extremely valuable because
(07:29):
that can continue to growwithout having to take the money
out tax free. So your re RMD ageultimately is based on your year
of birth, but think about onceyou get to your mid seventies,
you're gonna be required tostart taking money out of those
retirement accounts.
John Tripolsky (07:47):
Makes sense. Makes sense.
Disclaimer (07:48):
And it's good to kinda have that gauge. Right?
You just can't throw it in thereand say, oh, well, you know,
I'll take it when I need itkinda kinda deal. You don't,
don't exactly have the
John Tripolsky (07:56):
full on luxury in this case.
Chris Picciurro (07:58):
Roy, I mean, obviously, that's that that's a
good point. You can always takeout more than your required
minimum distributions, and youcan take distributions out of
your retirement accounts beforeyou hit your seventies. You
know, it's gonna be taxable, butthe thing is this is what a lot
of people say, I don'tnecessarily need this money. I
want it to continue to grow taxdeferred. So I want that I want
(08:22):
that to grow.
John Tripolsky (08:23):
And, Chris, I'd be very curious too just with,
you know, individuals, unlessthey're told about this. I can
see this being one of thosethings that, you know, people
just don't know, really. I mean,you would you would never think,
like, oh, they're gonna make metake it out of this, because
I've been, you know, adding toit over the years. So I'm glad
we're covering this too. And andto be honest, I forgot at what
(08:44):
point it was probably you thattold me about this.
I didn't even know it was athing. So it's so I'm kinda
speaking from the heart here
Chris Picciurro (08:51):
a little bit. What will
John Tripolsky (08:51):
happen? It's good we're covering these.
Chris Picciurro (08:53):
What will happen is once you start getting
to that point in your life,whoever the fiduciary is
typically for your IRA or yourfour zero one k or four three is
gonna be reaching out andnotifying you or your financial
adviser. Hey. You've got arequired minimum distribution to
be taken. Okay? There so you'regonna get notified.
However, what happens is thereare many times where you have
(09:15):
spouses where one kinda runs thefinances, one doesn't deal with
the finances, and the one thatruns the finances passed away,
and the other one has no ideaabout these RMDs. Or could be a
situation where you inherited aretirement account and you
weren't you didn't know that youwere even the beneficiary, that
you were required to makeminimum distributions. So this
is where, you know, you made agood point. You've you've got to
(09:38):
make sure that you'resurrounding yourself with your
board of directors, and andworking with financial advisors
or or someone to help younavigate through this. Now a
question always comes up.
Well, how in the heck do wefigure out what my required
minimum distribution is? So it'sa there there's a two pronged I
(09:58):
look at it as a two prongedcalculation. You first look at
what your account balances areon December 31 of the previous
year. So we are, you know, let'ssay it's spring of twenty twenty
five. Our RMD for 2025 is gonnabe based on your your account
balances December thirty firstof twenty twenty four in those
retirement accounts.
And then you look at that andyou divide it by a factor in the
(10:20):
IRS uniform life expectancytables. So ultimately, if you're
90 years old, your RMD is gonnabe a lot higher than if you're
76 years old with the sameaccount balance. So that's now
one thing that one practitionertip you need to know is that,
John, let's say you have threeIRAs. Right? And all of them
have a hundred thousand dollarsin them, and your RMD is $20.
(10:45):
You only have to satisfy thatRMD from any any of these these
IRAs. You only have to take out$20. You don't have to take out
money out of each one, if thatmakes sense. Because you might
John Tripolsky (10:58):
have to go with IRS So it's not a cumulative
it's a cumulative number, not aone out of each account to
Correct.
Get up to that sum.
Chris Picciurro (11:06):
And then people say, well, how next IRS gonna
figure this out? Right? Well,they do. And especially with AI
and and technology, I thinkenforcement's gonna be higher
and higher. Why?
Well, they have the IRS has yourdate of birth. They, also know
how much money is in yourretirement accounts. There's a
there's a form I think it's afifty four ninety eight that's a
annual reporting, from eachretirement account to the IRS
(11:31):
saying this was the balance inthe previous year. So there are
ways IRS and I again, I thinkwith AI and and computer
learning, they're gonna startenforcing this because the next
thing we're gonna talk about arethe penalties. So the penalty
for missing your requiredminimum distribution, and this
is just a federal penalty,right, was 50% of the RMD.
(11:53):
So in my case, $20,000 let's sayyour RMD was $20, John. You're
first of all, you have to takethe $20 out and pay tax on it.
Second of all, you have to pay50% of the $20 as a penalty.
John Tripolsky (12:03):
Oh, that's brutal.
Chris Picciurro (12:04):
Not a good look. That's So there No. The
the security point and all act,my wife said, well, you know,
the IRS got kinder and gentler.They did relax that penalty from
50% to 25%. And, actually, ifyou correct your boo boo
quickly, it's called acorrection something called a
correction window, you can getthat penalty down to 10%.
(12:25):
So and and if you're listeningto this and you're a little bit
confused, take a deep breath. Iwanna tell you that, you know,
most people that listen to thispodcast know I am very humbled
and honored to be one of theNational Association of Tax
Professionals instructors forwhat we call tax season updates.
So I've had the the honor of ofbeing able to teach, three to
400 tax professionals in the inthe fall and winter, peer to
(12:48):
peer. Now the secret is I willlearn way more from them than
they learn from me. That beingsaid, we had a significant
amount of content this year, andthere's a sixteen hour course
that these these folks takeabout secure two point o,
required minimum distributions,and this penalty relief.
So so this is something thateven tax practitioners like
myself are continuously learningabout. And and I I think the
(13:10):
takeaway would be here. Am Irequired to do an RMD? There are
reasons there are and we'regonna talk about some tax
planning strategies. There arereasons that you might wanna
start converting, and this iswhy we talk about Roth
conversions when you're in thatlower marginal tax rate here,
money out of your traditionalIRA into the Roth because you
already can see the RMD you youknow, you you know your RMDs
(13:32):
will be less.
Because Mhmm. Think about itlike this. We say we say either
you pick your tax or the IRSpicks your tax. If you do your
planning, you're picking thetax. But if you do no planning
and you just don't do anythingand now you have these RMDs, the
IRS picks your tax.
And I've seen cases where theseRMDs are significant amount of
money. And so fact that one, ittriggers your Social Security to
(13:55):
be taxed at 85%. Two, it couldbe so much that it it increases
your taxable income so that yourMedicare premiums are higher
than than others. There's like aa surtax on these Medicare
premiums. So again, even ifyou're in their forties
listening to this, drivingaround, going for a walk, a jog,
it's something to startconsidering of, maybe I should
(14:18):
start putting more money in myRoths to avoid the RMD down the
road.
John Tripolsky (14:22):
Right. Great great advice there. And it all
comes all comes down toknowledge and planning. Right?
If you only have one of those,it's really no good.
Right?
Chris Picciurro (14:32):
Exactly. You've gotta take an action. That's
where the, you know, teachingtax law community and defeating
taxes private Facebook groupcome into play. We we filled a
lot of questions about this.Let's let's leave some let's
leave everyone with a couple ofminutes of strategies.
Right? What can we do to managethese RMDs? Again, I wanna make
I feel like I have a brokenrecord, John. You've been with
(14:53):
me a lot where where people comeup to us. You know, people see
us in the airport.
No. People don't know the heckwe are in the airport. But when
we're at a conference orspeaking somewhere, yes. Hey.
You know, I oh, you know, theythis, that, and other thing.
You know, I was thinking aboutdoing this, but I don't wanna
pay the tax on it. It'll all goto taxes. No. Your entire RMD is
not gonna go to taxes. Right?
(15:13):
It's whatever your marginal taxrate is. However, what we're
trying to do is legally andethically reduce the tax you pay
in your lifetime. So what couldwe do, you know, if you are
subject to either avoid RMDs,kinda drive or it's like going
driving through Atlanta, John.You know you know there's that
bypass so you can kinda goaround the city? Do you wanna
(15:35):
drive around downtown?
Does it mean to avoid the RMDs?Or if you don't need the money,
what should you do? So one ofthe things when we actually have
a podcast episode on the QCDs,qualified charitable
distributions. So if you are inthat situation where you're
required to take money out ofyour IRAs and you really don't,
quote, unquote, need that moneyand you donate money to a
(15:56):
charity or a church anyway, youcan take up to a hundred
thousand dollars of yourrequired minimum distribution
and send it directly to thecharity and pay no tax on that
money, and you still get tofulfill your your charitable
desires. That's called aqualified charitable
distribution up to $100,000 peryear.
It's a very powerful strategybecause what we're seeing is
(16:17):
we're seeing people being forcedto take let let's look at our
example. That $20,000 out oftheir retirement account, and
then we're looking at their taxreturns saying, you know, you're
donating $15,000 a year to yourchurch. Have you considered just
taking the $20 and sending itright to the church to actually
reduce your tax, and then get$5,000 more money. So that's one
option. The second option mightbe, as I already mentioned a
(16:39):
little bit, start looking atRoth conversions right now for,
the future.
Even in you know, you can do aRoth conversion at any age.
You'll be 30 years old and do aRoth conversion. You're gonna
pay the tax on that conversionin the current year. You're not
gonna pay the 10% penalty, butthen you never have an RMD. Real
story, John.
I'm working on a tax planningcase right now in our private
(17:02):
practice, and we're gonna beworking with this person. They
converted $6,000,000 worth ofIRA money to a Roth. They
accumulated their entire lifeand said, I'm gonna bite the
bullet. I'm gonna convert all ofthis this year, and I'm never
gonna pay tax again. Because nowthe, you know, they their
income's not gonna meet thethreshold over the the standard
(17:23):
deduction.
Their Social Security won't betaxed for the rest of their
life. Now do I recommend someonedo that? Not without the careful
planning. So what we're gonna dois we're gonna pair that with
some tax strategies to offsetsome of that $6,000,000 or find
some tax credits available. So,again, that's where the tax
planning comes in.
It's almost like, you know, ifyou're going into surgery, make
(17:45):
sure you have some anesthesia.Right? We have that available
now in 2025. So if you're gonnamake a big move like that, make
sure that you're doing some taxplanning and strategy to couple
that with a big move. If you'reworking, you're still working,
and, you can still you can delayyour RMDs, you know, from a four
zero one k plan, as long asyou're not a 5% owner of the
(18:09):
company.
So that's another strategy fordelaying it. And then like I
said, managing your tax bracket.John, I'm gonna I'm gonna put
you on the spot.
John Tripolsky (18:17):
Oh, boy. Here we go. Yes.
Chris Picciurro (18:19):
What's the most important number when it comes
tax planning and strategy?What's the number one KPI?
John Tripolsky (18:24):
The number one. We're gonna say your marginal
tax rate.
Chris Picciurro (18:27):
Nailed it. So
John Tripolsky (18:28):
Not your tax bracket.
Chris Picciurro (18:30):
Tax rate. Pardon?
John Tripolsky (18:31):
Not your tax bracket.
Chris Picciurro (18:33):
Correct. So manage that marginal tax rate.
And in in if there's a year thatyou have a huge deduction, maybe
pair that with some income. It'sall about managing it. Because
remember, if you do nothing,you're gonna be required to take
these distributions out atwhatever the government's tax
rate is whenever you take itout, which we don't know.
(18:54):
It'd be like, John, you go intoa restaurant saying, hey. I'm
gonna have a meal. I'm not I'mgonna walk out the door now fat,
dumb, and happy. Right? And notthat you're dumb or fat, but
you're happy.
You know? That's just one of mydad's phrases, fat, dumb, and
happy. I go to I get a I walkout and and the restaurant says,
don't worry about paying, but infifteen years, we're gonna send
(19:16):
you a bill for whatever thevalue of that hamburger was. And
that's what people do all thetime. So it's just something to
think about.
So future RMDs. Right? With,like, a about life expectancies
getting longer, do we think RMDage will increase? I think with,
you know, with Secure two pointo act, the RMD age is gonna
(19:37):
increase to 75 starting in 2023.That could change with, change
with legislation.
Right? We don't know what'sgonna happen. There are also,
you know, as we wrap this up,one thing something to consider,
and I think this might be a goodpodcast topic in the future. I'm
talking about RMDs fromperspective of it's my IRA. If
you have beneficiaries of theIRA, there are special
(20:00):
considerations.
So there are so specialconsiderations for inherited
IRAs, there's something youknow, if you're a non spouse
beneficiary versus spousalbeneficiary depending on your
age, you know, there's there'sthere's this concept of a
designated beneficiary and a nondesignated beneficiary. So the
point is if you are abeneficiary of an IRA or
retirement account, you stillcould be subject to RMDs that
(20:23):
are different than the seventythree year old rule. Definitely
talk to us, and I think we mightput something together,
John Tripolsky (20:31):
for that as well. Awesome. Well, it's always
good when one good topic comesfrom another one. Right. And
then, so,
is is you alluded to this aswell too, and, you know, we
talked on it. It's it's allabout kind of harnessing the
knowledge on it. Right? Soanybody who's listened to this,
if this is your first timelistening, if this is your
hundred and twenty fifth timelistening to it, doesn't matter.
(20:54):
Check out YouTube as Chrismentioned there too.
Just our channel. We have somuch content on there and it's
easily digestible is the bestway to put it. Short little
snippets, some of it's a littlelonger form. You're in control
of what you listen to, what youwatch, and and really what you
learn. So it's not like you'regonna have to log on and watch a
two and a half hour video andand hope you can find what
(21:14):
you're interested in.
It's cataloged beautifully. Socheck that out. We're happy
happy happy, and I say that toobecause Chris referred to me as
being happier earlier. So here Iam, you know, doing the happy
dance. We have some of the bestcontent that we can think of and
some of the best guests that wecould find to talk on certain
topics on our radar.
So over the next couple ofmonths, we'll be releasing more
(21:35):
and more and more of this stuff.As we always say, it's kind of
the, the TTF snowball as youwill. And by the way, Chris, I
feel much more say much morecomfortable saying that now
being that I'm in Michigan andthe snow is melted. I can refer
to snowballs as a good thing.
Chris Picciurro (21:49):
The other thing is, John, and and just I feel
like I'd be remiss if you missedyour RMD. We actually have some
we have some content on that.Take a deep breath. Get with a
tax professional as soon aspossible. Make sure you take the
missed RMD as soon as possible,and then work with a tax
professional to remedy it andtry to try to find a way to to
to not pay the 50% penalty.
(22:10):
Maybe, you know, there there's aspecial form called the fifty
three twenty nine that getsfiled, but, again, don't not
take it. Get again, take talk toa tax professional. This I mean,
we get we get referrals all thetime in the teaching tax law
community from financialadvisors that that stump that
run across new clients thatdidn't know they had to take an
RMD. So you're not the only one.Let's get it remedied.
(22:34):
And and, again, I think that,you know, that might be, yeah,
that might be a podcast topic inthe future, as far as as
John Tripolsky (22:41):
And I and I see it as a trend. Right? So it's
it's almost very similar to acouple episodes that we've done
on IRS notices. The worst thingyou can do is nothing. So don't
sit around if you haven't takenthat and say, like, oh, you
know, I'll get to it.
I already missed the deadline.All you're doing is kind of
compounding the, the gut punchwhen it comes time to to pay the
(23:01):
piper. Right?
Chris Picciurro (23:04):
Absolutely. Awesome. You don't wanna have to
be too far behind the piper.
John Tripolsky (23:09):
Yep. Oh, yeah. Nobody nobody likes a piper that
much. But, anyways, well, wewill see everybody back here
again next week on the TeachingTax Flow podcast. Same day of
the week.
Different time, roughly,completely different topic. By
the way, I love tweaking this alittle a little bit every week.
I don't even remember where itstarted. I don't know. Came up
with this little and now outro,whatever it is.
(23:30):
But as the case, it alwaysremains true. We'll see
everybody back here on thepodcast. Have a great week.
Disclaimer (23:40):
The content provided is for educational purposes
only. We encourage you to seekpersonalized investment advice
from your financialprofessional. For all tax and
legal advice, please consultyour CPA or attorney. Investment
advisory services are offeredthrough Cabin Advisors, a
registered investment adviser.Securities are offered through
Cabin Securities, a registeredbroker dealer.
The content of this podcast does not constitute an
offer of securities. Offeringscan only be made through an
offering memorandum, and youshould carefully examine the
Hey, everybody, and welcome back to the Teaching
Tax Flow podcast today, episode126. We are looking at RMDs.
That's right. Another acronymfrom the Teaching Tax Flow
world. But But before we diveinto this one, let's take a
brief moment as always and thankour episode sponsor.
Disclaimer (00:21):
This podcast is sponsored by the mortgage shop.
Are you looking to qualify foran investment credit loan
without jumping through hoops?That's easy. They have loans
with LTV up to 89.99%. Exploringtheir products and discovering
how they can work for you issimple.
Just visit mortgage.shop or call(865) 325-2566 and tell them TTF
(00:43):
sent you.
John Tripolsky (00:47):
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Teaching Tax
Full podcast. Today, as youheard in the intro and hopefully
you read in the show notes,we're looking at RMDs. So it's
not EFTs, nothing with all theseother acronyms that we always
bring out, RMDs. So what exactlydoes that mean?
We're gonna get into it. ChrisPacquero, welcome back, sir. How
are we doing today?
Chris Picciurro (01:06):
I'm doing great. How are you doing today?
John Tripolsky (01:08):
I'm doing good, man. I feel good that we are
going to decipher another,acronym here for these Yeah.
Because it's almost like when weget caught up with them, and I
think I know all of them, it'slike, oh, here comes another
one. They just, like, fly in,you know, out of the sky and and
kinda land on my shoulder. Sothis is a good one.
So let's let's look at theserequired minimum distributions,
(01:30):
and really, obviously, what theyare, but who they apply to and,
you know, just a full onunderstanding discussion around
this.
Chris Picciurro (01:36):
Yes. Our required minimum distributions
are, per not, you know, we thinkabout them in general, and we're
gonna jump into this, ispertaining to people in their
seventies. However, they couldpertain to people at any age
depending on if they're abeneficiary of a retirement
account or something like that.So, first, we're gonna talk
about the kind of the history ofrequired minimum distributions,
(01:58):
and then we're gonna look at thewhat the current rules are for
for 2020, 04/2025, deadlines,you know, the and, and then, you
know, John, this teaching taxflow. We're gonna take a couple
minutes to provide, people thatare tangling with RMDs with some
tax planning opportunities, andthen just some just some, you
(02:21):
know, just some thoughts movingforward.
But, let's let's before we jumpinto RMDs or remember, required
and minimum distributions. Whatan RMD is is it is it's a
requirement for someone that hasmoney in a pretax account. So
let's call let's say an IRA,individual retirement account,
(02:42):
that you are required to takethat money out of the account at
some point. Now let's thinkabout this. When the money was
put into the IRA, 99% of thetime, maybe 99.9% of the time,
it is you get a tax deductionfor it or it goes into your
account pretax.
So, like, a four zero one kplan, you're putting that money
in pretax. You're not paying afederal income tax on the money
(03:05):
that you put into the retirementaccount. So ultimately, you get
a you either get a deduction forit or it's going in pretax. So
there's a big benefit on thefront end of these retirement
accounts. The money then growstax deferred, there's a
difference between tax deferredand tax free, but as it grows,
it grows tax deferred, and thenat some point when you take the
money out of the account, it'staxable at that time.
(03:29):
So let's say you put a hundreddollars into an IRA, John, the
hundred dollars grew to be worth$400. As that growth occurs,
you're not paying tax on it. Youcould even sell mutual funds,
bonds, stocks, real estate,whatever within that IRA and not
pay any tax on it because it'sin the IRA. Now that hundred
(03:50):
dollars grew tax deferred to$400. You go take that $400 out,
you're gonna pay tax on that$400 of whatever your tax rate
is the year you take it out.
So the IRS I mean, that's a hugebenefit to get a tax deduction
and then that tax deferredtreatment. So the IRS says,
remember one of our three lawsof teaching tax flow, Your tax
(04:12):
agencies are your involuntarybusiness partners. So the IRS
says, look. You can't just kickthe can down the road your
entire life here. At some point,someone's gotta pay tax on all
this tax deferred growth, allthis money that's sitting in
these retirement accounts thatno one's paid tax on, and
someone got a tax benefit.
So this is a good one.
John Tripolsky (04:33):
Way to say it too because it's it's almost
like they're coming up saying,alright. Alright, buddy. You've
you've reaped the benefits forso long, but time to take that
cash and put it back out intothe ecosphere. Like, quit quit
ordering that money. At somepoint.
Chris Picciurro (04:47):
Go through our tax system again because right
now it's on the sidelines of thetax system. So this start I
mean, the the original requiredminimum distributions were,
introduced back, John, beforeyou were even born. And I was I
was probably in diapers. And youknow what? I probably had a I
probably had a sweet head ofhair at the time, the revenue
act of 1978.
(05:08):
Alright? And, you know, and thatthat was when required minimum
distributions were, were werestarted. We had a big tax reform
act in 1986. John, you like tomake jokes about my age. I was
not practicing, tax in 1986.
I was 11 years old, and I wasrunning a little, baseball card,
(05:28):
outfit out of my out of mybasement.
Disclaimer (05:31):
A little a
John Tripolsky (05:32):
little operation. Right? Were you
paying tax on the income fromthe the baseball card? It was a
hobby. Sir?
Disclaimer (05:37):
Okay.
Chris Picciurro (05:38):
It was a hobby. Okay? So in 02/2019, the Secure
Act raised the required minimumdistribution age to 70 from 70
to 72. And in 2022, secure twopoint o act. Oh, yeah.
Guess what? We have a lot ofcontent on the teaching tax
flow, YouTube channel about thisstuff. Raise the RMDH to 73, and
(06:02):
then eventually 75. What doesthat mean? It's at that age, if
you own an IRA, that you have tobegin taking money out of the
account.
And there are significantpenalties if you fail to make a
required minimum distribution.We're gonna touch on that also
because the IRS got a littlefriendlier, a lot a little
(06:24):
gentler on those penalties. ButI I mean, real story, John, I
had someone in the teaching taxlaw community, a financial
advisor, reach out to me andsay, I've got a little
situation. And we talked to a ataxpayer. They are mature age.
Their spouse passed away, andthey were required to make these
(06:45):
minimum distributions, and theyhave not made these minimum
distributions for nine years. Sothat's a sticky, sticky
situation. Oh, yeah. So yeah. Soall the way
John Tripolsky (06:57):
coming in and saying, you know what? We
require you to take these. Ifyou don't, you're gonna pay us
some way or another by way offines, and rightfully so, I
guess. Right?
Chris Picciurro (07:05):
So in general, anyone 73 or older are required
to make take distributions fromtheir tax deferred accounts. Tax
deferred four zero one k's,IRAs, four zero three b,
etcetera. With a secured twopoint o act, we no longer have
to take RMDs out of Roths. Thatmakes sense. Right?
And that's why we talk about thepower of tax free income and
growth and why a Roth IRA couldbe extremely valuable because
(07:29):
that can continue to growwithout having to take the money
out tax free. So your re RMD ageultimately is based on your year
of birth, but think about onceyou get to your mid seventies,
you're gonna be required tostart taking money out of those
retirement accounts.
John Tripolsky (07:47):
Makes sense. Makes sense.
Disclaimer (07:48):
And it's good to kinda have that gauge. Right?
You just can't throw it in thereand say, oh, well, you know,
I'll take it when I need itkinda kinda deal. You don't,
don't exactly have the
John Tripolsky (07:56):
full on luxury in this case.
Chris Picciurro (07:58):
Roy, I mean, obviously, that's that that's a
good point. You can always takeout more than your required
minimum distributions, and youcan take distributions out of
your retirement accounts beforeyou hit your seventies. You
know, it's gonna be taxable, butthe thing is this is what a lot
of people say, I don'tnecessarily need this money. I
want it to continue to grow taxdeferred. So I want that I want
(08:22):
that to grow.
John Tripolsky (08:23):
And, Chris, I'd be very curious too just with,
you know, individuals, unlessthey're told about this. I can
see this being one of thosethings that, you know, people
just don't know, really. I mean,you would you would never think,
like, oh, they're gonna make metake it out of this, because
I've been, you know, adding toit over the years. So I'm glad
we're covering this too. And andto be honest, I forgot at what
(08:44):
point it was probably you thattold me about this.
I didn't even know it was athing. So it's so I'm kinda
speaking from the heart here
Chris Picciurro (08:51):
a little bit. What will
John Tripolsky (08:51):
happen? It's good we're covering these.
Chris Picciurro (08:53):
What will happen is once you start getting
to that point in your life,whoever the fiduciary is
typically for your IRA or yourfour zero one k or four three is
gonna be reaching out andnotifying you or your financial
adviser. Hey. You've got arequired minimum distribution to
be taken. Okay? There so you'regonna get notified.
However, what happens is thereare many times where you have
(09:15):
spouses where one kinda runs thefinances, one doesn't deal with
the finances, and the one thatruns the finances passed away,
and the other one has no ideaabout these RMDs. Or could be a
situation where you inherited aretirement account and you
weren't you didn't know that youwere even the beneficiary, that
you were required to makeminimum distributions. So this
is where, you know, you made agood point. You've you've got to
(09:38):
make sure that you'resurrounding yourself with your
board of directors, and andworking with financial advisors
or or someone to help younavigate through this. Now a
question always comes up.
Well, how in the heck do wefigure out what my required
minimum distribution is? So it'sa there there's a two pronged I
(09:58):
look at it as a two prongedcalculation. You first look at
what your account balances areon December 31 of the previous
year. So we are, you know, let'ssay it's spring of twenty twenty
five. Our RMD for 2025 is gonnabe based on your your account
balances December thirty firstof twenty twenty four in those
retirement accounts.
And then you look at that andyou divide it by a factor in the
(10:20):
IRS uniform life expectancytables. So ultimately, if you're
90 years old, your RMD is gonnabe a lot higher than if you're
76 years old with the sameaccount balance. So that's now
one thing that one practitionertip you need to know is that,
John, let's say you have threeIRAs. Right? And all of them
have a hundred thousand dollarsin them, and your RMD is $20.
(10:45):
You only have to satisfy thatRMD from any any of these these
IRAs. You only have to take out$20. You don't have to take out
money out of each one, if thatmakes sense. Because you might
John Tripolsky (10:58):
have to go with IRS So it's not a cumulative
it's a cumulative number, not aone out of each account to
Correct.
Get up to that sum.
Chris Picciurro (11:06):
And then people say, well, how next IRS gonna
figure this out? Right? Well,they do. And especially with AI
and and technology, I thinkenforcement's gonna be higher
and higher. Why?
Well, they have the IRS has yourdate of birth. They, also know
how much money is in yourretirement accounts. There's a
there's a form I think it's afifty four ninety eight that's a
annual reporting, from eachretirement account to the IRS
(11:31):
saying this was the balance inthe previous year. So there are
ways IRS and I again, I thinkwith AI and and computer
learning, they're gonna startenforcing this because the next
thing we're gonna talk about arethe penalties. So the penalty
for missing your requiredminimum distribution, and this
is just a federal penalty,right, was 50% of the RMD.
(11:53):
So in my case, $20,000 let's sayyour RMD was $20, John. You're
first of all, you have to takethe $20 out and pay tax on it.
Second of all, you have to pay50% of the $20 as a penalty.
John Tripolsky (12:03):
Oh, that's brutal.
Chris Picciurro (12:04):
Not a good look. That's So there No. The
the security point and all act,my wife said, well, you know,
the IRS got kinder and gentler.They did relax that penalty from
50% to 25%. And, actually, ifyou correct your boo boo
quickly, it's called acorrection something called a
correction window, you can getthat penalty down to 10%.
(12:25):
So and and if you're listeningto this and you're a little bit
confused, take a deep breath. Iwanna tell you that, you know,
most people that listen to thispodcast know I am very humbled
and honored to be one of theNational Association of Tax
Professionals instructors forwhat we call tax season updates.
So I've had the the honor of ofbeing able to teach, three to
400 tax professionals in the inthe fall and winter, peer to
(12:48):
peer. Now the secret is I willlearn way more from them than
they learn from me. That beingsaid, we had a significant
amount of content this year, andthere's a sixteen hour course
that these these folks takeabout secure two point o,
required minimum distributions,and this penalty relief.
So so this is something thateven tax practitioners like
myself are continuously learningabout. And and I I think the
(13:10):
takeaway would be here. Am Irequired to do an RMD? There are
reasons there are and we'regonna talk about some tax
planning strategies. There arereasons that you might wanna
start converting, and this iswhy we talk about Roth
conversions when you're in thatlower marginal tax rate here,
money out of your traditionalIRA into the Roth because you
already can see the RMD you youknow, you you know your RMDs
(13:32):
will be less.
Because Mhmm. Think about itlike this. We say we say either
you pick your tax or the IRSpicks your tax. If you do your
planning, you're picking thetax. But if you do no planning
and you just don't do anythingand now you have these RMDs, the
IRS picks your tax.
And I've seen cases where theseRMDs are significant amount of
money. And so fact that one, ittriggers your Social Security to
(13:55):
be taxed at 85%. Two, it couldbe so much that it it increases
your taxable income so that yourMedicare premiums are higher
than than others. There's like aa surtax on these Medicare
premiums. So again, even ifyou're in their forties
listening to this, drivingaround, going for a walk, a jog,
it's something to startconsidering of, maybe I should
(14:18):
start putting more money in myRoths to avoid the RMD down the
road.
John Tripolsky (14:22):
Right. Great great advice there. And it all
comes all comes down toknowledge and planning. Right?
If you only have one of those,it's really no good.
Right?
Chris Picciurro (14:32):
Exactly. You've gotta take an action. That's
where the, you know, teachingtax law community and defeating
taxes private Facebook groupcome into play. We we filled a
lot of questions about this.Let's let's leave some let's
leave everyone with a couple ofminutes of strategies.
Right? What can we do to managethese RMDs? Again, I wanna make
I feel like I have a brokenrecord, John. You've been with
(14:53):
me a lot where where people comeup to us. You know, people see
us in the airport.
No. People don't know the heckwe are in the airport. But when
we're at a conference orspeaking somewhere, yes. Hey.
You know, I oh, you know, theythis, that, and other thing.
You know, I was thinking aboutdoing this, but I don't wanna
pay the tax on it. It'll all goto taxes. No. Your entire RMD is
not gonna go to taxes. Right?
(15:13):
It's whatever your marginal taxrate is. However, what we're
trying to do is legally andethically reduce the tax you pay
in your lifetime. So what couldwe do, you know, if you are
subject to either avoid RMDs,kinda drive or it's like going
driving through Atlanta, John.You know you know there's that
bypass so you can kinda goaround the city? Do you wanna
(15:35):
drive around downtown?
Does it mean to avoid the RMDs?Or if you don't need the money,
what should you do? So one ofthe things when we actually have
a podcast episode on the QCDs,qualified charitable
distributions. So if you are inthat situation where you're
required to take money out ofyour IRAs and you really don't,
quote, unquote, need that moneyand you donate money to a
(15:56):
charity or a church anyway, youcan take up to a hundred
thousand dollars of yourrequired minimum distribution
and send it directly to thecharity and pay no tax on that
money, and you still get tofulfill your your charitable
desires. That's called aqualified charitable
distribution up to $100,000 peryear.
It's a very powerful strategybecause what we're seeing is
(16:17):
we're seeing people being forcedto take let let's look at our
example. That $20,000 out oftheir retirement account, and
then we're looking at their taxreturns saying, you know, you're
donating $15,000 a year to yourchurch. Have you considered just
taking the $20 and sending itright to the church to actually
reduce your tax, and then get$5,000 more money. So that's one
option. The second option mightbe, as I already mentioned a
(16:39):
little bit, start looking atRoth conversions right now for,
the future.
Even in you know, you can do aRoth conversion at any age.
You'll be 30 years old and do aRoth conversion. You're gonna
pay the tax on that conversionin the current year. You're not
gonna pay the 10% penalty, butthen you never have an RMD. Real
story, John.
I'm working on a tax planningcase right now in our private
(17:02):
practice, and we're gonna beworking with this person. They
converted $6,000,000 worth ofIRA money to a Roth. They
accumulated their entire lifeand said, I'm gonna bite the
bullet. I'm gonna convert all ofthis this year, and I'm never
gonna pay tax again. Because nowthe, you know, they their
income's not gonna meet thethreshold over the the standard
(17:23):
deduction.
Their Social Security won't betaxed for the rest of their
life. Now do I recommend someonedo that? Not without the careful
planning. So what we're gonna dois we're gonna pair that with
some tax strategies to offsetsome of that $6,000,000 or find
some tax credits available. So,again, that's where the tax
planning comes in.
It's almost like, you know, ifyou're going into surgery, make
(17:45):
sure you have some anesthesia.Right? We have that available
now in 2025. So if you're gonnamake a big move like that, make
sure that you're doing some taxplanning and strategy to couple
that with a big move. If you'reworking, you're still working,
and, you can still you can delayyour RMDs, you know, from a four
zero one k plan, as long asyou're not a 5% owner of the
(18:09):
company.
So that's another strategy fordelaying it. And then like I
said, managing your tax bracket.John, I'm gonna I'm gonna put
you on the spot.
John Tripolsky (18:17):
Oh, boy. Here we go. Yes.
Chris Picciurro (18:19):
What's the most important number when it comes
tax planning and strategy?What's the number one KPI?
John Tripolsky (18:24):
The number one. We're gonna say your marginal
tax rate.
Chris Picciurro (18:27):
Nailed it. So
John Tripolsky (18:28):
Not your tax bracket.
Chris Picciurro (18:30):
Tax rate. Pardon?
John Tripolsky (18:31):
Not your tax bracket.
Chris Picciurro (18:33):
Correct. So manage that marginal tax rate.
And in in if there's a year thatyou have a huge deduction, maybe
pair that with some income. It'sall about managing it. Because
remember, if you do nothing,you're gonna be required to take
these distributions out atwhatever the government's tax
rate is whenever you take itout, which we don't know.
(18:54):
It'd be like, John, you go intoa restaurant saying, hey. I'm
gonna have a meal. I'm not I'mgonna walk out the door now fat,
dumb, and happy. Right? And notthat you're dumb or fat, but
you're happy.
You know? That's just one of mydad's phrases, fat, dumb, and
happy. I go to I get a I walkout and and the restaurant says,
don't worry about paying, but infifteen years, we're gonna send
(19:16):
you a bill for whatever thevalue of that hamburger was. And
that's what people do all thetime. So it's just something to
think about.
So future RMDs. Right? With,like, a about life expectancies
getting longer, do we think RMDage will increase? I think with,
you know, with Secure two pointo act, the RMD age is gonna
(19:37):
increase to 75 starting in 2023.That could change with, change
with legislation.
Right? We don't know what'sgonna happen. There are also,
you know, as we wrap this up,one thing something to consider,
and I think this might be a goodpodcast topic in the future. I'm
talking about RMDs fromperspective of it's my IRA. If
you have beneficiaries of theIRA, there are special
(20:00):
considerations.
So there are so specialconsiderations for inherited
IRAs, there's something youknow, if you're a non spouse
beneficiary versus spousalbeneficiary depending on your
age, you know, there's there'sthere's this concept of a
designated beneficiary and a nondesignated beneficiary. So the
point is if you are abeneficiary of an IRA or
retirement account, you stillcould be subject to RMDs that
(20:23):
are different than the seventythree year old rule. Definitely
talk to us, and I think we mightput something together,
John Tripolsky (20:31):
for that as well. Awesome. Well, it's always
good when one good topic comesfrom another one. Right. And
then, so,
is is you alluded to this aswell too, and, you know, we
talked on it. It's it's allabout kind of harnessing the
knowledge on it. Right? Soanybody who's listened to this,
if this is your first timelistening, if this is your
hundred and twenty fifth timelistening to it, doesn't matter.
(20:54):
Check out YouTube as Chrismentioned there too.
Just our channel. We have somuch content on there and it's
easily digestible is the bestway to put it. Short little
snippets, some of it's a littlelonger form. You're in control
of what you listen to, what youwatch, and and really what you
learn. So it's not like you'regonna have to log on and watch a
two and a half hour video andand hope you can find what
(21:14):
you're interested in.
It's cataloged beautifully. Socheck that out. We're happy
happy happy, and I say that toobecause Chris referred to me as
being happier earlier. So here Iam, you know, doing the happy
dance. We have some of the bestcontent that we can think of and
some of the best guests that wecould find to talk on certain
topics on our radar.
So over the next couple ofmonths, we'll be releasing more
(21:35):
and more and more of this stuff.As we always say, it's kind of
the, the TTF snowball as youwill. And by the way, Chris, I
feel much more say much morecomfortable saying that now
being that I'm in Michigan andthe snow is melted. I can refer
to snowballs as a good thing.
Chris Picciurro (21:49):
The other thing is, John, and and just I feel
like I'd be remiss if you missedyour RMD. We actually have some
we have some content on that.Take a deep breath. Get with a
tax professional as soon aspossible. Make sure you take the
missed RMD as soon as possible,and then work with a tax
professional to remedy it andtry to try to find a way to to
to not pay the 50% penalty.
(22:10):
Maybe, you know, there there's aspecial form called the fifty
three twenty nine that getsfiled, but, again, don't not
take it. Get again, take talk toa tax professional. This I mean,
we get we get referrals all thetime in the teaching tax law
community from financialadvisors that that stump that
run across new clients thatdidn't know they had to take an
RMD. So you're not the only one.Let's get it remedied.
(22:34):
And and, again, I think that,you know, that might be, yeah,
that might be a podcast topic inthe future, as far as as
John Tripolsky (22:41):
And I and I see it as a trend. Right? So it's
it's almost very similar to acouple episodes that we've done
on IRS notices. The worst thingyou can do is nothing. So don't
sit around if you haven't takenthat and say, like, oh, you
know, I'll get to it.
I already missed the deadline.All you're doing is kind of
compounding the, the gut punchwhen it comes time to to pay the
(23:01):
piper. Right?
Chris Picciurro (23:04):
Absolutely. Awesome. You don't wanna have to
be too far behind the piper.
John Tripolsky (23:09):
Yep. Oh, yeah. Nobody nobody likes a piper that
much. But, anyways, well, wewill see everybody back here
again next week on the TeachingTax Flow podcast. Same day of
the week.
Different time, roughly,completely different topic. By
the way, I love tweaking this alittle a little bit every week.
I don't even remember where itstarted. I don't know. Came up
with this little and now outro,whatever it is.
(23:30):
But as the case, it alwaysremains true. We'll see
everybody back here on thepodcast. Have a great week.
Disclaimer (23:40):
The content provided is for educational purposes
only. We encourage you to seekpersonalized investment advice
from your financialprofessional. For all tax and
legal advice, please consultyour CPA or attorney. Investment
advisory services are offeredthrough Cabin Advisors, a
registered investment adviser.Securities are offered through
Cabin Securities, a registeredbroker dealer.
The content of this podcast does not constitute an
offer of securities. Offeringscan only be made through an
offering memorandum, and youshould carefully examine the
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