October 29, 2024 • 29 mins
Ever wondered how positivity and innovation can reshape the cybersecurity landscape? Join us as we sit down with the distinguished cybersecurity thought leader Dominic Vogel, who shares his dynamic approach to balancing security with business priorities. Discover the transformative power of positivity, as Dominic reveals his unique LinkedIn strategy and "kindness project," aimed at infusing empathy into the digital security realm. We'll also hear about his passion for rock and roll, including an unforgettable Paul McCartney concert experience that showcases his love for timeless music.
Navigating the intense demands of the cybersecurity industry requires more than just technical skills. In our conversation, we explore the intersection of wellness and leadership, and how self-care rituals like daily walks and family time can stave off burnout. Listen as we discuss the vital role of leaders in providing mental support and setting clear organizational priorities. Dominic’s insights into authentic and vulnerable leadership offer a roadmap for fostering healthier workplace environments, driving both personal and professional growth in an often high-pressure field.
Breaking into the cybersecurity job market is no easy feat, but personal branding and human skills can set you apart. We share strategies for building strong professional networks and making lasting connections with potential employers beyond the conventional application process. For those who lean introverted, we provide encouragement and tips for stepping out of your comfort zone, underscoring that authenticity is just as crucial as technical prowess in the ever-evolving cybersecurity landscape. Tune in for a conversation rich with guidance and innovation, as Dominic Vogel and our team illuminate paths to success in this competitive arena.
Please visit our website https://www.techexecwellness.com to stay up to date and subscribe to our newsletter!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, it's great to be back to another episode of
the Tech Exec Wellness Podcast,and I couldn't be more delighted
than to have one of the bestpeople I know in cybersecurity
today.
So joining us is Dominic Vogel.
He's a well-respectedcybersecurity thought leader,
appearing on media news outletsacross the world.
As a veteran cybersecurityexpert and thought leader,
(00:22):
dominic holds a proven trackrecord across a multitude of
industries, which includefinancial services, logistics,
transportation, healthcare,government telecommunications
and, of course, criticalinfrastructure, which is
important these days.
Dominic is a firm believer indelivering sustainable security
that supports and protectsbusiness goals.
Having worked within large andglobally diverse organizations,
(00:44):
he has extensive securityexperience that has been forged
over the past two decades as aninformation security
professional.
Dominic is a two-time founderwho has focused on providing
unbiased, actionablecybersecurity strategic guidance
and advice to startups andsmall businesses across North
America.
(01:04):
Strategic guidance and adviceto startups and small businesses
across North America.
Dominic is the president atVogel Coaching and Leadership
Services, a Vancouver-basedleadership advisory company
specializing in cybersecurity,and hosts the Cybersecurity
Matters podcast, a highlyregarded podcast that explores
the intersection betweencybersecurity and business.
He is also and I'm not sayingthis, but he's saying this he is
(01:27):
also a self-proposed positivetroll and I've been the
recipient of a lot of those.
You know really cool things.
We'll talk about that later inthe podcast.
And he's a professional hypeman and believes in the power of
uplifting others through hishigh energy coaching practice.
Dominic, welcome to the show.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I'm really well, Melissa.
Thank you so, so, so much forhaving me on the show.
I just appreciate you so muchas a friend.
I'm looking forward to an epicconvo.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Awesome.
Well, before we get started andstart talking about wellness
and burnout and all those greatthings that go along with cyber,
can you tell us about yourfavorite music genre, what are
you listening to in the car andany memorable concert
experiences you can share withour listeners?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Well, I'm a bit of an old soul.
I don't listen to anything past1985, much to the chagrin of my
kids, and especially my14-year-old daughter, who
considers that ancient history.
I'm a big rock and roll guy.
I love anything that's on theoldie stations.
My favorite concert experiencewas when I went with my brother
(02:30):
to when Paul McCartney camethrough Vancouver.
I'm going to say it wasprobably 2013, maybe 2014.
One of the last times he wasdoing a true global tour and it
was just really, really awesometo be part of the electricity
running through that buildingand seeing someone at his age at
the time performing the waythat he did, for as long as he
(02:51):
did, was just freaking amazing.
One of the highlights that I'mgrateful to have experienced in
my life.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
My late mother loved Paul McCartney and Wings with
his wife Linda, and I remembershe saw them back in the 80s, I
think, or something that wasplayed around my house a lot and
I really like the Beatles oldmusic, but especially Paul's
solo work.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, you can't go wrong.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Before we get into talking about all good things,
wellness.
I've been the recipient of alot of positive feedback from
you on LinkedIn and I see you dothat with others.
Why did you decide to kind ofput out that good energy out
there, which I love, but whatkind of propels you to do that?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
You know what propelled me to do?
It was just trying to bedifferent.
You know, and when I became anentrepreneur and I'm entering my
10th year as an entrepreneuryou know I'd come from corporate
where I just conditioned myselfto just think all I was capable
of doing was, you know,security work.
Right, I just saw myself as acybersecurity person.
When I became an entrepreneur,I was like how do I learn sales,
(03:55):
how do I learn marketing?
How do I, you know, learnbuilding relationships?
You know, how do I learnsupporting people?
You know, and I started goingon LinkedIn and you know, I
started going on linkedin and,you know, sending dms to people
and trying to drum up business.
That got me nowhere, absolutelynowhere.
I thought, hmm, there needs tobe a better way.
And I also at the time was like, you know what?
There's a lot of negativityhere, even for a professional
(04:17):
platform like linkedin.
You know, people who weretaking a chance and posting
content were, you know, know,getting negative comments or
rude comments or what have you.
And I thought, hmm, what if Ido this differently?
Rather than trying to getbusiness, why don't I just try
to support people, why don't Ijust try to support people who
are trying to do good in thisworld.
(04:38):
Why don't I just try to be asource of kindness and
inspiration?
And maybe if I do that, they'llcreate the right energy for
success?
And at the time I sort ofcoined it my kindness project,
which is a working title for abook I've been probably working
on for the past four years.
To me it's about my, it wasjust, it was sparking, trying to
be different, you know, andsomething I've done consistently
(05:00):
for the past seven years now,and it's something which
recently I was named in the topfive security influencers in
Canada and I was really proud ofthat.
I was really proud of thatbecause, paradoxically, I don't
talk about security.
I rarely talk about security inmy posts or in my content, but
(05:20):
what I believe I brought to theindustry, and why I believe I'm
an influencer in this space, isthat I've humanized the field.
I've shown that people in thisfield they're not just techies,
they're not just security peoplewho like talking about security
.
There are security people withfeelings, there are security
people who are driven bykindness and empathy.
There are more than just ourprofession.
(05:40):
More than anything, I thinkI've shown that the field is
filled with great humans, ourprofession, you know, and I've
really more than anything, Ithink I've shown that the field
is filled with great humans,right, and trying to break down
the stereotypes of what thecybersecurity profession is like
and what the professionals inthat field is like, that's
what's motivated me to do it.
Right, it was just to bedifferent and just be a bright
light in someone's day, and thefriendships I formed, melissa,
like this one, I formed justamazing, amazing lifelong
(06:04):
friendships that I know, whenit's all said and done, when I'm
done with my career, I'll stillhave these amazing friends,
right?
People that I'll be able tovisit across the world, people
that I'll be able to haveamazing lifelong friendships
with.
And that's, to me, what hasbeen the driving force.
It's by leading with kindness,it's by leading with friendship
and the comments I get when Icatch up with people and I say,
(06:24):
dom, I look forward to yourcomments every day, because I
know, at least once a day, I'llbe smiling or laughing, and it's
stuff like that.
That's why I do what I do,melissa.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
You know I love that and I commend you for that.
You were one of my supporterslast year when I was stepping
out on a ledge and posting andwhatnot and the engagement
algorithms, et cetera.
Through your compassion andyour guidance I've kind of found
my voice as well and I wouldagree with you a hundred percent
that technology executives,cybersecurity people a lot of
them like yourself, like me,others have compassion and we're
(06:56):
just really cool people.
The day-to-day work.
I mean we're really allinteresting people.
I appreciate your friendshipand keep doing what you're doing
.
I love that.
You're putting out positiveenergy and it's a ripple effect.
I think it's going to continueto ripple across the world and
we'll see nice people and not somuch mean people.
That would be great.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
That's the goal, melissa.
I think one of the greatestcomments I get from people is
when they say if you had beenposting about security, I
wouldn't have connected with youand we wouldn't have become
friends.
And I think that's why it's soimportant for us to remember,
and one of the hardest thingsfor me to crack out of my brain
was that I am more than what Ido Burning out in corporate.
(07:39):
While it was difficult at thetime, it put me on this
beautiful journey where I wasable to become more in tune with
a higher version of myself, ahigher purpose, and more in tune
with the energy vibrations thatwere more true to my soul, and
it really brought me to a pointwhere I recognized that who I am
is what's important.
What I do is largely irrelevant, but it's who I am.
(07:59):
That is what I need to leadwith each and every day, and
that has been, like I said, oneof the greatest gifts.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I love that you said that, because I read something
the other day about how peopletheir identity is defined by
where they work or what they do,and I'm guilty of that.
When I worked at Apple, I wasApple.
I wasn't even posting onLinkedIn or anything I found my
identity.
I know that kind of soundscrazy, but I see other people
that mention that a lot.
I know that kind of soundscrazy, but I see other people
(08:25):
that mention that a lot thatthey see people identifying as
what they do and where they workversus who they are.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
And that's why I say in corporate, I saw myself just
as a security professional.
When I burned out in corporateand started becoming an
entrepreneur, I thought, oh, Ican't do sales, I can't do
marketing, I don't know how todo business development, I don't
know how to build arelationship.
It led me to just assumingthose things were true and it
led me to picking a businesspartner that, in the long run,
(08:51):
ended up not being the rightbusiness partner for my energy.
But the funny thing is that bypicking the wrong business
partner, it brought me to a spotwhere I learned how to do sales
.
I learned how to buildmeaningful relationships.
I learned how to do sales.
I learned how to buildmeaningful relationships.
I learned how to do marketing.
I learned how to do brandingand I got really good at it.
I was like, wow, I actuallyenjoy this more than I enjoy
(09:12):
security work.
But one of the things that Inow do is that every year I do
what I refer to as an assumptionaudit Anything that I assume
about myself to be true.
I actively challenge it everyyear because I was holding
myself back.
Like I said, when I leftcorporate, all I was trained to
(09:33):
do or felt I could do wassecurity work Now for the
longest time, with myprofessional speaking as well.
I would only talk aboutsecurity.
A few years ago a friend ofmine said, dom, you should be
talking about how to be aninspiring leader, how to grow an
amazing, high-performing team.
He said your content is so muchmore than security.
You can talk more about that.
(09:54):
You don't have to just talkabout security.
I was like son of a gun.
I just assumed that's all I wasactually allowed to talk about.
So now when I go out, one of myfavorite talks I like to give
to technical audiences is how tounleash your inner leader.
It's something that in the techspace, very few of us actually
have taken the time tounderstand.
What it means to be a leader inthe tech space.
(10:14):
And why I focus on coaching, youknow, because I really believe
that the technical field whetherit's IT or cybersecurity we
overemphasize the technicalcerts, the security cert service
, right?
You look at any training planfor a company, an IT team,
security team.
There's nothing in there abouthow do we become better
communicators, right?
How can I be a moreinspirational leader, right?
How can I do better?
(10:35):
How can we create moreempathetic communication with
the team here?
Right?
None of that right.
And when I bring forward thatto CIOs and CTOs, they're like,
wow, no one's ever mentionedthat before.
And I'm a big believer that thenext big maturity hop in our
field isn't going to comethrough technology.
It's going to come throughthose that start investing in
their people, and not, like Isaid, not in terms of security
(10:57):
awareness, not in terms of theirsecurity certifications or tech
certifications, but actuallymaking their people people,
allowing them to explorethemselves, allowing them to
explore hidden dimensions aboutthemselves, allowing them to be
more in tune with a higherpurpose, right and higher
versions of themselves.
That's the next level.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Right on.
I'm loving that, okay, so let'spivot for a second.
What are you doing to take careof yourself?
What is your approach towellness, and is there anything
that you are consistent withthat you've adopted that kind of
routine for you.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, you know what?
For me, it's become a matter oftrying to really make sure that
I prioritize myself.
I've always been a giver.
I put more so on others, andafter I became a dad I have two
kids I realized I was more oftenthan not I was going to bed
with a very, very empty cup.
(11:47):
And so past few yearsespecially because the pandemic
was great in that it allowed meto start bringing forward a
routine, because I was able towork from home all the time, and
I now work from home prettymuch all the time as well so
when I drop off my son at school, rain or shine, I go on an hour
walk, which is great.
It sets my mood, gives meenergy for the day.
(12:07):
I take the time where then Ihave a later breakfast, where
it's something that I'm notworking on a full stomach, and
when it's time for me to take amidday break, it's ready for me
to take a midday break, it'sready for me to have a great
lunch.
I get to spend some time with mywife, and it's little things,
it's nothing huge.
One of the things I try really,really hard and I do fail on
(12:28):
this, but I try really, reallyhard is that when my kids are
home from school, that I don'tdo any work, that I try to be
done by the um, when I pick themup and I'm able to spend time
with them driving to theiractivities, but go outside play,
what have you right?
That is healing time for me.
That's time where I get tofocus on what it is that truly
(12:49):
matters the most to me in mylife.
Um, do I get to do it all thetime?
No, do I get to spend timeequally with my son, my daughter
, my wife all the time?
No, it's the.
It's like I said, thatconcerted effort of just not
being focused on work all thetime, like I was in corporate
it's.
It's does wonders for the, forthe, for the mind, body and soul
(13:10):
.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
That's awesome.
One of the things that we see alot in our industry is
cybersecurity staff shortages.
People are juggling two tothree different tasks at their
job and we're seeing a lot ofburnout.
I was one of those a year ago.
What do you think needs to bedone to address well-being,
(13:30):
whether it be in cyber orelsewhere in corporate?
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah, well, I'll say there's a bunch of different
things.
I think that can go into that,but you're absolutely right.
Brown is right for the industry.
I've experienced it twice in mycorporate days.
So a couple of things.
One is back to the leadershippiece and why I'm a big believer
in coaching.
We need to equip our technicalleaders with the ability to do
(13:56):
what I call mental triage, to beable to identify when people
are burning out, to be able toidentify when people need a safe
psychological space to justtalk and vent.
A lot of my coaching clientsjokingly refer to my service as
cheap therapy where.
I just provide a safepsychological space for people
on the technical team to justvent, to just say what they need
(14:17):
to say, and it feels so muchbetter because there's not
rallying it around in theirheads, they're not venting to
their colleagues, which bringsother negative energy, they're
not bringing it home and beingnegative at home it's about
really, the first step is howcan we better mental triage this
, because it's there so we needto be able to identify it and
triage it and provide that levelof support.
(14:39):
Back to my earlier point theleaders in our space are not
equipped.
They've not been trained to beleaders.
They've not been trained toprovide that, create a safe
psychological space for peopleto feel their feelings.
That, to me, is a key thingthat we need to do better on in
this industry.
But also, I'll say, to the leftof the stress boom, what can be
(15:01):
done to prevent the stress fromactually manifesting.
And for me, what I think itstill comes down to is better
alignment around what needs tobe done in terms of just
prioritization.
I cannot tell you how manysecurity teams I coach and I
support where they are justdealing with conflicting
requirements from their bosses,from maybe the board, or from
(15:21):
executives, and it feels likethey're constantly stuck in
cement or quicksand which isquickly turning into cement, and
they're just unable to doanything.
So, to me, what really needs tobe done is we need to again, I
draw this back to leadership.
A lot of security leaders arenot equipped to really bring
(15:43):
this forward at an executivelevel in terms of, hey, we need
to do better, right, we need tohave clearer priorities, and
we're going to have clearerpriorities because we're going
to start communicating moreclearly, right.
The board may think one thing,the executives think another,
and the executives are confusedby what the security team is
saying, because the CISO orsecurity director is not
equipped to talk in a way thatis meaningful or in alignment
(16:04):
with what the business or theorganization needs or is
expecting.
So I'm a big believer here that, in terms of burnout, in terms
of the perceived talent shortage, really a root cause in all of
this is that we need to createbetter leaders in this space.
That, to me, is the keysolution.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
I love that and tell me if you agree with this.
But I think even people likemyself that have really taken
the time to sit down andreevaluate, do that inventory,
like you mentioned earlier.
I think if you're not willingto do that, I don't think you're
going to be successful.
What do you think?
Do you agree that it startswith that leader?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I think there's thattrickle-down effect where the
leader needs to start doing thatand they need to be authentic
in sharing that with their team.
They need to be vulnerable withtheir team in being able to say
, hey, you know what, I've donesome stuff myself and here's
where I can do better, here'sareas where I assumed I was
doing this but it turns out Iwasn't.
They need to be more empathetic.
We're still struggling withempathy in the broader tech
(17:03):
space and cybersecurity space interms of being more empathetic
to one another.
Sometimes we're so quick tolabel and judge someone as, oh,
they're a bad performer or no,that person's a jerk.
We don't seek to understand whysomeone is acting the way that
they're acting.
Again, that stems from a lackof leadership or lack of people
who have been developed as trueleaders.
And the last thing, too, iskindness.
(17:24):
We desperately need morekindness in our industry.
We are not kind to ourselves inthis industry and we're
certainly not kind to each other.
There is still a lack ofkindness in this field.
Presentation around how do youunleash that hidden leader those
are my four pillars that Ibuild around.
It's around authenticity, it'saround vulnerability, it's
around empathy and it's aroundkindness, right, those are my
four main pillars.
(17:44):
You're able to start developingthose and honing those skills,
you become a better leader.
And that has a trickle-downeffect because your, if your
people start seeing that, theywill start being able to develop
that.
If you give them the time andthe energy and the coaching
whether if you do it yourself,bring in a coach like myself, or
you're going to start seeingstuff like burnout.
You're going to start seeingthat disappearing.
(18:06):
You're going to see higherperformance.
You're going to see happierteams and when people are more
dialed in, with the right energy, you're going to see, like I
said, massive, massiveperformance hops, massive
maturity hops.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
I love that and that's one of the things I say
to the startups I work with andsome of the enterprise customers
I have is your people, you'vegot to take care of your people.
It's the right thing to do.
But also, if we want to talkabout output, we want to talk
about cost operationallyoptimizing it, especially in
this downturn economy.
(18:36):
If you take care of your people, not only are you going to get
production and revenue growth,but you're also going to reduce
cost of healthcare, of peopleleaving, people, going out on
leave and if they can take amoment to look at the bigger
picture, dominic, like you'retalking about, you would see a
lot of rewards versus weshouldn't be doing this.
(18:57):
We need to take a holisticapproach, kind of like what
you're saying.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yes, a hundred percent.
And that's when we look at theway that leadership is still
structured in this field.
I still have conversations withCIOs who look at investing in
your people as basically voodoomagic.
They're like why would I investin that when I can buy another
tool?
And it's like that's theproblem, right?
We think that we can keepbuying tools to get ourselves
(19:21):
out of these holes.
Technology has evolved a lotover the 20 years I've been
doing this, but you know whathasn't evolved?
One iota is our ability to lead.
It's the same shitty, sameterrible leaders that were here
20 years ago and we have notprogressed to the same degree
that our technology hasprogressed.
If there are ability to leadand inspire and create amazing
(19:42):
teams, if that evolved at thesame rate as technology, we
would be having a very differentconversation, melissa, very,
very different conversation.
That's what we need to do.
We need to really get people tostop thinking about that.
It's not about buying moretechnology.
More technology isn't theproblem.
Technology alone isn't theproblem, so buying more of it
isn't going to be the solution.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, what needs to happen is a disruption.
I don't want to say revolution,that's a little harsh but I
think disruption meaning youknow, I've been here and think
different for years, but really,truly, at this point, we need
to disrupt what has been thestatus quo for years and shake
it up a bit.
What guidance would you givefor people looking to get into
cyber, because we know the good,the bad, the ugly.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yeah, yeah, you know what I do for people who are
trying to enter the field.
I'm blessed to have theopportunity to speak to a lot of
college students, universitystudents, people who are just
eager to get into the field, andthey always ask me, like, what
should we do to get into thefield?
What certification do I need?
What technology do I need to do?
I would say you need to justfocus on investing in yourself
(20:45):
as a person, learning how to bea better leader, learning how to
build meaningful relationships,learn how to be a more
empathetic communicator, learnhow to hold an audience talking
about something which is maybevery complex and maybe, on a
good day, very boring, and makeit come alive for someone that
isn't in our field.
And it's like people are justblown away.
They're like, wow, we've beenin schooling for four years
(21:08):
doing this and no one's actuallyever said that we should think
about how we can be betterpeople.
So it's being tech, tech, tech,tech, tech and they get blown
away by it.
I'm a big believer in thisbecause, doing what I do, I
build out a lot of securityteams for my clients right,
building them from the ground upand even for like the smallest
of organizations.
When they open a job openingfor a junior security analyst
(21:34):
role, they get inundated withhundreds and hundreds of
applications and guess what?
They all read the same.
It's like they all use the sametemplate, they all use the same
AI engine, they're all usingthe word that would relish the
opportunity to work for yourorganization, and it just no one
stands out.
Right, so, right, so, and why?
It's because they're andthey're all this, these massive
technical certifications.
We have this, this, this, this,this, and that that's why we
(21:54):
need, I need people tounderstand that.
It's not that you.
You need the tech to get, maybe, you to the table, but guess
what, once you get to the table,everyone else has the same dang
tech certification, securitycertification.
What's going to set you apartis your ability just to pop as a
person, right To be thisamazingly authentic, vulnerable,
empathetic and kind person.
That energy will shine through,right, and you see it, when
(22:17):
people with resumes, even just asplash of color to their
resumes, they're like, wow, thatstood out.
That person's getting aninterview, all right.
So daring to be different,daring to, like I said, look at
this profession than more thanjust technology.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
That's really awesome .
When you were talking, I wasthinking about incident response
.
A lot of people I don't know ifyou see this with the college
students but they thinkcybersecurity is one thing.
When it's so multifaceted it'salmost like medicine, right,
different specialties.
And when I think of somethinglike incident response, you've
got to have the empathy, thecompassion and the control to
(22:50):
walk a customer through one ofthe most craziest things that's
going to happen to them a databreach and the CISO's taking
heat from the board.
It's finger pointing.
And when we talk about thehuman element, it's critical.
In cyber, it's critical thatyou have to have people's skills
.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Absolutely, and because cybersecurity has become
such a hot spot for people toapply.
You know, the market is socrowded.
You know, and I hear Melissafrom so many people who reach
out to me or on LinkedIn orpeople I have conversations with
, and they're like, yeah, I'vebeen looking for work for eight
months, nine months, and I say,well, tell me, what are you
doing?
Like, how are you doing?
How are you applying?
Oh, I just set my computer andapply for five hours applying to
(23:29):
jobs.
Do you do anything else?
I'm like no, and I say you knowwhat?
It breaks my heart to say this,but you're wasting your time.
When I hear people who say, yeah, I can't get work, I recognize
that there's people who are in ahard spot and are unable to get
work, but I still find far toomany people who are not applying
.
They're playing harder but notsmarter.
As well.
(23:50):
As bring it back to the humanform, the human centric side
here and where I really believe,I see it locally.
I see it with people that Icoach who are on the job hunt,
that you can't just apply to ajob online and let it go into
the, into the hr ether, becausemost people, like I.
Their resumes all look the sameand I've done it just to show
(24:12):
how difficult it is.
Once you've sent my resume intothe places and I don't hear from
places that I'm more thanqualified for you need to go
beyond just applying online.
So I always tell people that'swhy you need to develop your
brand.
You need to develop yournetwork, both virtually on
platforms like LinkedIn and inperson in your community.
You need to develop yournetwork both virtually on
platforms like LinkedIn and inperson right In your community.
Right, find where your hiringmanagers are going, right,
whether it's ISAC, isc, squared,other tech association, tech
(24:35):
meetings.
Go and develop therelationships, go and develop
the place there, because thetalent managers are having a
tough time looking through allthose resumes.
So make it easy on them right.
Find them, developrelationships with them, develop
friendships with them, wow themwith what you're doing, and
then you're going to now what Isay short circuit the process
right.
The hiring process is verybroken, very, very broken.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
So you need to take it into your own hands and do
more than just firing it intothe online black hole.
Okay, what would you say tothose people?
And not like us, because we'revery extroverted?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
but you've got a lot of introverted people in cyber.
They're going to be more apt tostay at home, stay behind the
keyboard, extremely introvertedperson.
For most of my life I had onefriend or two.
The other one was my brother.
For most of my life, up untilmy mid-20s, even when I was in
corporate, I was still very shy.
I was good at what I did, but Idid not form relationships very
well.
It wasn't until I became anentrepreneur, like I said,
(25:43):
started to actively challengemyself, that I found what I
refer to as these hiddendimensions about myself.
15-year-old me, 13-year-old meheck, even 20-year-old me would
not believe the version of methat is currently in existence.
So I really believe that it ispossible for most people.
You just need to try andchallenge those assumptions.
Is it easy?
No, is it a switch?
(26:03):
No, but I know it soundssomewhat cliche, but growth
comes from discomfort.
You know, and I'm so gratefulthat I did burn out, because if
I didn't burn out, if I stayedin corporate, the version that I
am now today likely may nothave evolved and I'm I really
like who I am today.
So I'm really grateful that Idid burn out because it happened
(26:24):
for a reason.
So I tell people now that youknow what.
Maybe you're out of work for areason.
Maybe this is an opportunityfor you to find another version
of yourself, a version that youdidn't even know possible.
How amazing would that be tofind that person.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
That's truly incredible and I can relate to
everything you said, because Iwas that person and I love the
person I am today.
The person I am today is sofrigging, compassionate and cool
.
I mean, I thought I was coolbefore but I really think, like
you said, I think you're cool.
Melissa.
All right, I love it.
No, that's why we're friends.
But no, you're spot on.
(26:57):
And I had been going throughthe grind doing the same thing
every day, I wouldn't have timefor my family I know you
mentioned that with yourchildren, but I've really taken
inventory myself of what'simportant to me, so that really
resonates.
That's so great, Dominic.
Okay, I've got one lastquestion for you where I'm just
trying to spread as muchkindness and inspiration and
(27:31):
smiles as I can on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Platforms like LinkedIn allow me to magnify and
amplify that.
I try to live my daily lifehere in Vancouver, where I live.
I'm grateful for platforms likeLinkedIn that allow me to
amplify that.
And my goal.
I set monthly goals for myself.
I set a monthly quota and myquota at the end of every month
is how many meaningfulfriendships did I strengthen
this month and how manymeaningful friendships did I
(27:55):
start this month as a result ofmy time on LinkedIn or as a
result of just trying to spreadkindness?
That's how I measure my success.
Because I know everything elsewill stem and flow naturally
from that.
I prioritize that.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
What an outstanding conversation with the one and
only Dominic Vogel.
Thank you so much for stoppingby today.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Thank you, melissa.
That was a blast.
Let's do it again, all right?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Listeners, you're going to love this one.
Don't forget to subscribe toour podcast on various platforms
, such as Apple Podcasts, wherewe're ranked more than we are on
Spotify and our heart I heartradio, and check out our website
at wwwtechexecwellnesscom.
Thanks for tuning in and takecare.
Hello, it's great to be back to another episode of
the Tech Exec Wellness Podcast,and I couldn't be more delighted
than to have one of the bestpeople I know in cybersecurity
today.
So joining us is Dominic Vogel.
He's a well-respectedcybersecurity thought leader,
appearing on media news outletsacross the world.
As a veteran cybersecurityexpert and thought leader,
(00:22):
dominic holds a proven trackrecord across a multitude of
industries, which includefinancial services, logistics,
transportation, healthcare,government telecommunications
and, of course, criticalinfrastructure, which is
important these days.
Dominic is a firm believer indelivering sustainable security
that supports and protectsbusiness goals.
Having worked within large andglobally diverse organizations,
(00:44):
he has extensive securityexperience that has been forged
over the past two decades as aninformation security
professional.
Dominic is a two-time founderwho has focused on providing
unbiased, actionablecybersecurity strategic guidance
and advice to startups andsmall businesses across North
America.
(01:04):
Strategic guidance and adviceto startups and small businesses
across North America.
Dominic is the president atVogel Coaching and Leadership
Services, a Vancouver-basedleadership advisory company
specializing in cybersecurity,and hosts the Cybersecurity
Matters podcast, a highlyregarded podcast that explores
the intersection betweencybersecurity and business.
He is also and I'm not sayingthis, but he's saying this he is
(01:27):
also a self-proposed positivetroll and I've been the
recipient of a lot of those.
You know really cool things.
We'll talk about that later inthe podcast.
And he's a professional hypeman and believes in the power of
uplifting others through hishigh energy coaching practice.
Dominic, welcome to the show.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I'm really well, Melissa.
Thank you so, so, so much forhaving me on the show.
I just appreciate you so muchas a friend.
I'm looking forward to an epicconvo.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Awesome.
Well, before we get started andstart talking about wellness
and burnout and all those greatthings that go along with cyber,
can you tell us about yourfavorite music genre, what are
you listening to in the car andany memorable concert
experiences you can share withour listeners?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Well, I'm a bit of an old soul.
I don't listen to anything past1985, much to the chagrin of my
kids, and especially my14-year-old daughter, who
considers that ancient history.
I'm a big rock and roll guy.
I love anything that's on theoldie stations.
My favorite concert experiencewas when I went with my brother
(02:30):
to when Paul McCartney camethrough Vancouver.
I'm going to say it wasprobably 2013, maybe 2014.
One of the last times he wasdoing a true global tour and it
was just really, really awesometo be part of the electricity
running through that buildingand seeing someone at his age at
the time performing the waythat he did, for as long as he
(02:51):
did, was just freaking amazing.
One of the highlights that I'mgrateful to have experienced in
my life.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
My late mother loved Paul McCartney and Wings with
his wife Linda, and I remembershe saw them back in the 80s, I
think, or something that wasplayed around my house a lot and
I really like the Beatles oldmusic, but especially Paul's
solo work.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, you can't go wrong.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Before we get into talking about all good things,
wellness.
I've been the recipient of alot of positive feedback from
you on LinkedIn and I see you dothat with others.
Why did you decide to kind ofput out that good energy out
there, which I love, but whatkind of propels you to do that?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
You know what propelled me to do?
It was just trying to bedifferent.
You know, and when I became anentrepreneur and I'm entering my
10th year as an entrepreneuryou know I'd come from corporate
where I just conditioned myselfto just think all I was capable
of doing was, you know,security work.
Right, I just saw myself as acybersecurity person.
When I became an entrepreneur,I was like how do I learn sales,
(03:55):
how do I learn marketing?
How do I, you know, learnbuilding relationships?
You know, how do I learnsupporting people?
You know, and I started goingon LinkedIn and you know, I
started going on linkedin and,you know, sending dms to people
and trying to drum up business.
That got me nowhere, absolutelynowhere.
I thought, hmm, there needs tobe a better way.
And I also at the time was like, you know what?
There's a lot of negativityhere, even for a professional
(04:17):
platform like linkedin.
You know, people who weretaking a chance and posting
content were, you know, know,getting negative comments or
rude comments or what have you.
And I thought, hmm, what if Ido this differently?
Rather than trying to getbusiness, why don't I just try
to support people, why don't Ijust try to support people who
are trying to do good in thisworld.
(04:38):
Why don't I just try to be asource of kindness and
inspiration?
And maybe if I do that, they'llcreate the right energy for
success?
And at the time I sort ofcoined it my kindness project,
which is a working title for abook I've been probably working
on for the past four years.
To me it's about my, it wasjust, it was sparking, trying to
be different, you know, andsomething I've done consistently
(05:00):
for the past seven years now,and it's something which
recently I was named in the topfive security influencers in
Canada and I was really proud ofthat.
I was really proud of thatbecause, paradoxically, I don't
talk about security.
I rarely talk about security inmy posts or in my content, but
(05:20):
what I believe I brought to theindustry, and why I believe I'm
an influencer in this space, isthat I've humanized the field.
I've shown that people in thisfield they're not just techies,
they're not just security peoplewho like talking about security
.
There are security people withfeelings, there are security
people who are driven bykindness and empathy.
There are more than just ourprofession.
(05:40):
More than anything, I thinkI've shown that the field is
filled with great humans, ourprofession, you know, and I've
really more than anything, Ithink I've shown that the field
is filled with great humans,right, and trying to break down
the stereotypes of what thecybersecurity profession is like
and what the professionals inthat field is like, that's
what's motivated me to do it.
Right, it was just to bedifferent and just be a bright
light in someone's day, and thefriendships I formed, melissa,
like this one, I formed justamazing, amazing lifelong
(06:04):
friendships that I know, whenit's all said and done, when I'm
done with my career, I'll stillhave these amazing friends,
right?
People that I'll be able tovisit across the world, people
that I'll be able to haveamazing lifelong friendships
with.
And that's, to me, what hasbeen the driving force.
It's by leading with kindness,it's by leading with friendship
and the comments I get when Icatch up with people and I say,
(06:24):
dom, I look forward to yourcomments every day, because I
know, at least once a day, I'llbe smiling or laughing, and it's
stuff like that.
That's why I do what I do,melissa.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
You know I love that and I commend you for that.
You were one of my supporterslast year when I was stepping
out on a ledge and posting andwhatnot and the engagement
algorithms, et cetera.
Through your compassion andyour guidance I've kind of found
my voice as well and I wouldagree with you a hundred percent
that technology executives,cybersecurity people a lot of
them like yourself, like me,others have compassion and we're
(06:56):
just really cool people.
The day-to-day work.
I mean we're really allinteresting people.
I appreciate your friendshipand keep doing what you're doing
.
I love that.
You're putting out positiveenergy and it's a ripple effect.
I think it's going to continueto ripple across the world and
we'll see nice people and not somuch mean people.
That would be great.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
That's the goal, melissa.
I think one of the greatestcomments I get from people is
when they say if you had beenposting about security, I
wouldn't have connected with youand we wouldn't have become
friends.
And I think that's why it's soimportant for us to remember,
and one of the hardest thingsfor me to crack out of my brain
was that I am more than what Ido Burning out in corporate.
(07:39):
While it was difficult at thetime, it put me on this
beautiful journey where I wasable to become more in tune with
a higher version of myself, ahigher purpose, and more in tune
with the energy vibrations thatwere more true to my soul, and
it really brought me to a pointwhere I recognized that who I am
is what's important.
What I do is largely irrelevant, but it's who I am.
(07:59):
That is what I need to leadwith each and every day, and
that has been, like I said, oneof the greatest gifts.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I love that you said that, because I read something
the other day about how peopletheir identity is defined by
where they work or what they do,and I'm guilty of that.
When I worked at Apple, I wasApple.
I wasn't even posting onLinkedIn or anything I found my
identity.
I know that kind of soundscrazy, but I see other people
that mention that a lot.
I know that kind of soundscrazy, but I see other people
(08:25):
that mention that a lot thatthey see people identifying as
what they do and where they workversus who they are.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
And that's why I say in corporate, I saw myself just
as a security professional.
When I burned out in corporateand started becoming an
entrepreneur, I thought, oh, Ican't do sales, I can't do
marketing, I don't know how todo business development, I don't
know how to build arelationship.
It led me to just assumingthose things were true and it
led me to picking a businesspartner that, in the long run,
(08:51):
ended up not being the rightbusiness partner for my energy.
But the funny thing is that bypicking the wrong business
partner, it brought me to a spotwhere I learned how to do sales
.
I learned how to buildmeaningful relationships.
I learned how to do sales.
I learned how to buildmeaningful relationships.
I learned how to do marketing.
I learned how to do brandingand I got really good at it.
I was like, wow, I actuallyenjoy this more than I enjoy
(09:12):
security work.
But one of the things that Inow do is that every year I do
what I refer to as an assumptionaudit Anything that I assume
about myself to be true.
I actively challenge it everyyear because I was holding
myself back.
Like I said, when I leftcorporate, all I was trained to
(09:33):
do or felt I could do wassecurity work Now for the
longest time, with myprofessional speaking as well.
I would only talk aboutsecurity.
A few years ago a friend ofmine said, dom, you should be
talking about how to be aninspiring leader, how to grow an
amazing, high-performing team.
He said your content is so muchmore than security.
You can talk more about that.
(09:54):
You don't have to just talkabout security.
I was like son of a gun.
I just assumed that's all I wasactually allowed to talk about.
So now when I go out, one of myfavorite talks I like to give
to technical audiences is how tounleash your inner leader.
It's something that in the techspace, very few of us actually
have taken the time tounderstand.
What it means to be a leader inthe tech space.
(10:14):
And why I focus on coaching, youknow, because I really believe
that the technical field whetherit's IT or cybersecurity we
overemphasize the technicalcerts, the security cert service
, right?
You look at any training planfor a company, an IT team,
security team.
There's nothing in there abouthow do we become better
communicators, right?
How can I be a moreinspirational leader, right?
How can I do better?
(10:35):
How can we create moreempathetic communication with
the team here?
Right?
None of that right.
And when I bring forward thatto CIOs and CTOs, they're like,
wow, no one's ever mentionedthat before.
And I'm a big believer that thenext big maturity hop in our
field isn't going to comethrough technology.
It's going to come throughthose that start investing in
their people, and not, like Isaid, not in terms of security
(10:57):
awareness, not in terms of theirsecurity certifications or tech
certifications, but actuallymaking their people people,
allowing them to explorethemselves, allowing them to
explore hidden dimensions aboutthemselves, allowing them to be
more in tune with a higherpurpose, right and higher
versions of themselves.
That's the next level.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Right on.
I'm loving that, okay, so let'spivot for a second.
What are you doing to take careof yourself?
What is your approach towellness, and is there anything
that you are consistent withthat you've adopted that kind of
routine for you.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, you know what?
For me, it's become a matter oftrying to really make sure that
I prioritize myself.
I've always been a giver.
I put more so on others, andafter I became a dad I have two
kids I realized I was more oftenthan not I was going to bed
with a very, very empty cup.
(11:47):
And so past few yearsespecially because the pandemic
was great in that it allowed meto start bringing forward a
routine, because I was able towork from home all the time, and
I now work from home prettymuch all the time as well so
when I drop off my son at school, rain or shine, I go on an hour
walk, which is great.
It sets my mood, gives meenergy for the day.
(12:07):
I take the time where then Ihave a later breakfast, where
it's something that I'm notworking on a full stomach, and
when it's time for me to take amidday break, it's ready for me
to take a midday break, it'sready for me to have a great
lunch.
I get to spend some time with mywife, and it's little things,
it's nothing huge.
One of the things I try really,really hard and I do fail on
(12:28):
this, but I try really, reallyhard is that when my kids are
home from school, that I don'tdo any work, that I try to be
done by the um, when I pick themup and I'm able to spend time
with them driving to theiractivities, but go outside play,
what have you right?
That is healing time for me.
That's time where I get tofocus on what it is that truly
(12:49):
matters the most to me in mylife.
Um, do I get to do it all thetime?
No, do I get to spend timeequally with my son, my daughter
, my wife all the time?
No, it's the.
It's like I said, thatconcerted effort of just not
being focused on work all thetime, like I was in corporate
it's.
It's does wonders for the, forthe, for the mind, body and soul
(13:10):
.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
That's awesome.
One of the things that we see alot in our industry is
cybersecurity staff shortages.
People are juggling two tothree different tasks at their
job and we're seeing a lot ofburnout.
I was one of those a year ago.
What do you think needs to bedone to address well-being,
(13:30):
whether it be in cyber orelsewhere in corporate?
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah, well, I'll say there's a bunch of different
things.
I think that can go into that,but you're absolutely right.
Brown is right for the industry.
I've experienced it twice in mycorporate days.
So a couple of things.
One is back to the leadershippiece and why I'm a big believer
in coaching.
We need to equip our technicalleaders with the ability to do
(13:56):
what I call mental triage, to beable to identify when people
are burning out, to be able toidentify when people need a safe
psychological space to justtalk and vent.
A lot of my coaching clientsjokingly refer to my service as
cheap therapy where.
I just provide a safepsychological space for people
on the technical team to justvent, to just say what they need
(14:17):
to say, and it feels so muchbetter because there's not
rallying it around in theirheads, they're not venting to
their colleagues, which bringsother negative energy, they're
not bringing it home and beingnegative at home it's about
really, the first step is howcan we better mental triage this
, because it's there so we needto be able to identify it and
triage it and provide that levelof support.
(14:39):
Back to my earlier point theleaders in our space are not
equipped.
They've not been trained to beleaders.
They've not been trained toprovide that, create a safe
psychological space for peopleto feel their feelings.
That, to me, is a key thingthat we need to do better on in
this industry.
But also, I'll say, to the leftof the stress boom, what can be
(15:01):
done to prevent the stress fromactually manifesting.
And for me, what I think itstill comes down to is better
alignment around what needs tobe done in terms of just
prioritization.
I cannot tell you how manysecurity teams I coach and I
support where they are justdealing with conflicting
requirements from their bosses,from maybe the board, or from
(15:21):
executives, and it feels likethey're constantly stuck in
cement or quicksand which isquickly turning into cement, and
they're just unable to doanything.
So, to me, what really needs tobe done is we need to again, I
draw this back to leadership.
A lot of security leaders arenot equipped to really bring
(15:43):
this forward at an executivelevel in terms of, hey, we need
to do better, right, we need tohave clearer priorities, and
we're going to have clearerpriorities because we're going
to start communicating moreclearly, right.
The board may think one thing,the executives think another,
and the executives are confusedby what the security team is
saying, because the CISO orsecurity director is not
equipped to talk in a way thatis meaningful or in alignment
(16:04):
with what the business or theorganization needs or is
expecting.
So I'm a big believer here that, in terms of burnout, in terms
of the perceived talent shortage, really a root cause in all of
this is that we need to createbetter leaders in this space.
That, to me, is the keysolution.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
I love that and tell me if you agree with this.
But I think even people likemyself that have really taken
the time to sit down andreevaluate, do that inventory,
like you mentioned earlier.
I think if you're not willingto do that, I don't think you're
going to be successful.
What do you think?
Do you agree that it startswith that leader?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I think there's thattrickle-down effect where the
leader needs to start doing thatand they need to be authentic
in sharing that with their team.
They need to be vulnerable withtheir team in being able to say
, hey, you know what, I've donesome stuff myself and here's
where I can do better, here'sareas where I assumed I was
doing this but it turns out Iwasn't.
They need to be more empathetic.
We're still struggling withempathy in the broader tech
(17:03):
space and cybersecurity space interms of being more empathetic
to one another.
Sometimes we're so quick tolabel and judge someone as, oh,
they're a bad performer or no,that person's a jerk.
We don't seek to understand whysomeone is acting the way that
they're acting.
Again, that stems from a lackof leadership or lack of people
who have been developed as trueleaders.
And the last thing, too, iskindness.
(17:24):
We desperately need morekindness in our industry.
We are not kind to ourselves inthis industry and we're
certainly not kind to each other.
There is still a lack ofkindness in this field.
Presentation around how do youunleash that hidden leader those
are my four pillars that Ibuild around.
It's around authenticity, it'saround vulnerability, it's
around empathy and it's aroundkindness, right, those are my
four main pillars.
(17:44):
You're able to start developingthose and honing those skills,
you become a better leader.
And that has a trickle-downeffect because your, if your
people start seeing that, theywill start being able to develop
that.
If you give them the time andthe energy and the coaching
whether if you do it yourself,bring in a coach like myself, or
you're going to start seeingstuff like burnout.
You're going to start seeingthat disappearing.
(18:06):
You're going to see higherperformance.
You're going to see happierteams and when people are more
dialed in, with the right energy, you're going to see, like I
said, massive, massiveperformance hops, massive
maturity hops.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
I love that and that's one of the things I say
to the startups I work with andsome of the enterprise customers
I have is your people, you'vegot to take care of your people.
It's the right thing to do.
But also, if we want to talkabout output, we want to talk
about cost operationallyoptimizing it, especially in
this downturn economy.
(18:36):
If you take care of your people, not only are you going to get
production and revenue growth,but you're also going to reduce
cost of healthcare, of peopleleaving, people, going out on
leave and if they can take amoment to look at the bigger
picture, dominic, like you'retalking about, you would see a
lot of rewards versus weshouldn't be doing this.
(18:57):
We need to take a holisticapproach, kind of like what
you're saying.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yes, a hundred percent.
And that's when we look at theway that leadership is still
structured in this field.
I still have conversations withCIOs who look at investing in
your people as basically voodoomagic.
They're like why would I investin that when I can buy another
tool?
And it's like that's theproblem, right?
We think that we can keepbuying tools to get ourselves
(19:21):
out of these holes.
Technology has evolved a lotover the 20 years I've been
doing this, but you know whathasn't evolved?
One iota is our ability to lead.
It's the same shitty, sameterrible leaders that were here
20 years ago and we have notprogressed to the same degree
that our technology hasprogressed.
If there are ability to leadand inspire and create amazing
(19:42):
teams, if that evolved at thesame rate as technology, we
would be having a very differentconversation, melissa, very,
very different conversation.
That's what we need to do.
We need to really get people tostop thinking about that.
It's not about buying moretechnology.
More technology isn't theproblem.
Technology alone isn't theproblem, so buying more of it
isn't going to be the solution.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, what needs to happen is a disruption.
I don't want to say revolution,that's a little harsh but I
think disruption meaning youknow, I've been here and think
different for years, but really,truly, at this point, we need
to disrupt what has been thestatus quo for years and shake
it up a bit.
What guidance would you givefor people looking to get into
cyber, because we know the good,the bad, the ugly.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yeah, yeah, you know what I do for people who are
trying to enter the field.
I'm blessed to have theopportunity to speak to a lot of
college students, universitystudents, people who are just
eager to get into the field, andthey always ask me, like, what
should we do to get into thefield?
What certification do I need?
What technology do I need to do?
I would say you need to justfocus on investing in yourself
(20:45):
as a person, learning how to bea better leader, learning how to
build meaningful relationships,learn how to be a more
empathetic communicator, learnhow to hold an audience talking
about something which is maybevery complex and maybe, on a
good day, very boring, and makeit come alive for someone that
isn't in our field.
And it's like people are justblown away.
They're like, wow, we've beenin schooling for four years
(21:08):
doing this and no one's actuallyever said that we should think
about how we can be betterpeople.
So it's being tech, tech, tech,tech, tech and they get blown
away by it.
I'm a big believer in thisbecause, doing what I do, I
build out a lot of securityteams for my clients right,
building them from the ground upand even for like the smallest
of organizations.
When they open a job openingfor a junior security analyst
(21:34):
role, they get inundated withhundreds and hundreds of
applications and guess what?
They all read the same.
It's like they all use the sametemplate, they all use the same
AI engine, they're all usingthe word that would relish the
opportunity to work for yourorganization, and it just no one
stands out.
Right, so, right, so, and why?
It's because they're andthey're all this, these massive
technical certifications.
We have this, this, this, this,this, and that that's why we
(21:54):
need, I need people tounderstand that.
It's not that you.
You need the tech to get, maybe, you to the table, but guess
what, once you get to the table,everyone else has the same dang
tech certification, securitycertification.
What's going to set you apartis your ability just to pop as a
person, right To be thisamazingly authentic, vulnerable,
empathetic and kind person.
That energy will shine through,right, and you see it, when
(22:17):
people with resumes, even just asplash of color to their
resumes, they're like, wow, thatstood out.
That person's getting aninterview, all right.
So daring to be different,daring to, like I said, look at
this profession than more thanjust technology.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
That's really awesome .
When you were talking, I wasthinking about incident response
.
A lot of people I don't know ifyou see this with the college
students but they thinkcybersecurity is one thing.
When it's so multifaceted it'salmost like medicine, right,
different specialties.
And when I think of somethinglike incident response, you've
got to have the empathy, thecompassion and the control to
(22:50):
walk a customer through one ofthe most craziest things that's
going to happen to them a databreach and the CISO's taking
heat from the board.
It's finger pointing.
And when we talk about thehuman element, it's critical.
In cyber, it's critical thatyou have to have people's skills
.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Absolutely, and because cybersecurity has become
such a hot spot for people toapply.
You know, the market is socrowded.
You know, and I hear Melissafrom so many people who reach
out to me or on LinkedIn orpeople I have conversations with
, and they're like, yeah, I'vebeen looking for work for eight
months, nine months, and I say,well, tell me, what are you
doing?
Like, how are you doing?
How are you applying?
Oh, I just set my computer andapply for five hours applying to
(23:29):
jobs.
Do you do anything else?
I'm like no, and I say you knowwhat?
It breaks my heart to say this,but you're wasting your time.
When I hear people who say, yeah, I can't get work, I recognize
that there's people who are in ahard spot and are unable to get
work, but I still find far toomany people who are not applying
.
They're playing harder but notsmarter.
As well.
(23:50):
As bring it back to the humanform, the human centric side
here and where I really believe,I see it locally.
I see it with people that Icoach who are on the job hunt,
that you can't just apply to ajob online and let it go into
the, into the hr ether, becausemost people, like I.
Their resumes all look the sameand I've done it just to show
(24:12):
how difficult it is.
Once you've sent my resume intothe places and I don't hear from
places that I'm more thanqualified for you need to go
beyond just applying online.
So I always tell people that'swhy you need to develop your
brand.
You need to develop yournetwork, both virtually on
platforms like LinkedIn and inperson in your community.
You need to develop yournetwork both virtually on
platforms like LinkedIn and inperson right In your community.
Right, find where your hiringmanagers are going, right,
whether it's ISAC, isc, squared,other tech association, tech
(24:35):
meetings.
Go and develop therelationships, go and develop
the place there, because thetalent managers are having a
tough time looking through allthose resumes.
So make it easy on them right.
Find them, developrelationships with them, develop
friendships with them, wow themwith what you're doing, and
then you're going to now what Isay short circuit the process
right.
The hiring process is verybroken, very, very broken.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
So you need to take it into your own hands and do
more than just firing it intothe online black hole.
Okay, what would you say tothose people?
And not like us, because we'revery extroverted?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
but you've got a lot of introverted people in cyber.
They're going to be more apt tostay at home, stay behind the
keyboard, extremely introvertedperson.
For most of my life I had onefriend or two.
The other one was my brother.
For most of my life, up untilmy mid-20s, even when I was in
corporate, I was still very shy.
I was good at what I did, but Idid not form relationships very
well.
It wasn't until I became anentrepreneur, like I said,
(25:43):
started to actively challengemyself, that I found what I
refer to as these hiddendimensions about myself.
15-year-old me, 13-year-old meheck, even 20-year-old me would
not believe the version of methat is currently in existence.
So I really believe that it ispossible for most people.
You just need to try andchallenge those assumptions.
Is it easy?
No, is it a switch?
(26:03):
No, but I know it soundssomewhat cliche, but growth
comes from discomfort.
You know, and I'm so gratefulthat I did burn out, because if
I didn't burn out, if I stayedin corporate, the version that I
am now today likely may nothave evolved and I'm I really
like who I am today.
So I'm really grateful that Idid burn out because it happened
(26:24):
for a reason.
So I tell people now that youknow what.
Maybe you're out of work for areason.
Maybe this is an opportunityfor you to find another version
of yourself, a version that youdidn't even know possible.
How amazing would that be tofind that person.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
That's truly incredible and I can relate to
everything you said, because Iwas that person and I love the
person I am today.
The person I am today is sofrigging, compassionate and cool
.
I mean, I thought I was coolbefore but I really think, like
you said, I think you're cool.
Melissa.
All right, I love it.
No, that's why we're friends.
But no, you're spot on.
(26:57):
And I had been going throughthe grind doing the same thing
every day, I wouldn't have timefor my family I know you
mentioned that with yourchildren, but I've really taken
inventory myself of what'simportant to me, so that really
resonates.
That's so great, Dominic.
Okay, I've got one lastquestion for you where I'm just
trying to spread as muchkindness and inspiration and
(27:31):
smiles as I can on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Platforms like LinkedIn allow me to magnify and
amplify that.
I try to live my daily lifehere in Vancouver, where I live.
I'm grateful for platforms likeLinkedIn that allow me to
amplify that.
And my goal.
I set monthly goals for myself.
I set a monthly quota and myquota at the end of every month
is how many meaningfulfriendships did I strengthen
this month and how manymeaningful friendships did I
(27:55):
start this month as a result ofmy time on LinkedIn or as a
result of just trying to spreadkindness?
That's how I measure my success.
Because I know everything elsewill stem and flow naturally
from that.
I prioritize that.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
What an outstanding conversation with the one and
only Dominic Vogel.
Thank you so much for stoppingby today.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Thank you, melissa.
That was a blast.
Let's do it again, all right?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Listeners, you're going to love this one.
Don't forget to subscribe toour podcast on various platforms
, such as Apple Podcasts, wherewe're ranked more than we are on
Spotify and our heart I heartradio, and check out our website
at wwwtechexecwellnesscom.
Thanks for tuning in and takecare.
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