July 27, 2023 • 57 mins
Join epic nerds Elliott and Sarah as they discuss the latest digital health technologies and the human factors critical to deployment and adoption with a verifiable Health Tech Top Gun, Dr. Norma Padrón. Dr. Padrón is the CEO and Founder of EmpiricaLab and has more advanced degrees than Donald Trump has indictments. Plus, Elliott and Sarah celebrate a mystery milestone and attempt to stymie one another in their brand new segment, Techpocalypse Now. Is this real or fake news? Tune in to find out.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Tech It To The Limit, the humorous and surprisingly informative podcast that
(00:22):
makes digital innovation and healthcare as entertaining as it is relevant.
I'm Sarah Harper.
And I'm Elliot Wilson.
And we're here to pull back the curtain on the world of digital transformation in healthcare.
Don't worry, you don't need a medical degree to join in on the fun.
Just a sense of humor and a penchant for all things health tech.
So buckle up, folks.
It's time to Tech It To The Limit.
(00:46):
Hey Elliot.
Hey Sarah.
Welcome back to Tech It To The Limit.
So excited to be here.
It's my favorite place to be.
It's like Sesame Street for adults who are having midlife crises.
As evidenced by the hat that I'm wearing right now.
(01:08):
It is very pom-pom-y.
So why are you wearing that hat?
Sarah, happy birthday to you.
And happy birthday to you, good friend.
Oh, thank you so much.
For our listeners, Elliot and I both turned a multiple of 13 this past month.
That's what you're going with?
(01:29):
That's what I'm going with.
I'm just like impressed with my math.
Factorally, we are still below 40.
We are.
Which is important only because society says it is.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think we both come from groups that do not put a lot of stock in turning 40, right?
You've got the whole women thing.
I've got the whole gay man thing.
(01:50):
Nobody really wants to see us turn 40, especially not ourselves.
I've been getting a lot of ads for face creams recently.
So you can just keep that thought to yourself.
Better than the ED stuff that I keep getting.
Oh dear.
Oh dear.
Hey, this is a PG-13 podcast.
Oh, right.
Yes.
So you need to check it.
For our listeners, we are both wearing conically shaped hats.
(02:15):
Mine keeps sliding off because of my headset.
But it was made by my beloved eight-year-old to honor my not quite midlife crisis.
And mine was made in the last eight seconds and certainly is indicative of my midlife
crisis.
You have some mad crafting skills for a last minute crafter, I must say.
(02:39):
It's amazing what having a six-year-old girl in your house will do to your supply of pom-poms,
like cleaners and construction paper.
Yeah.
She's either going to find that very inspiring in the morning or be like, dad, why did you
use my pom-poms?
You didn't ask permission first.
She knows what her inventory is and she will give me grief for it.
(02:59):
Oh, that's funny.
Speaking of my daughter though, we talked last time about whether or not my girls were
going to like this podcast.
And I have an update for you.
So we recently went down to Assateague Island in Maryland to camp and on the way down there,
I suggested to my husband that we should listen to the podcast, see what he thought of it.
(03:22):
And great news, he really likes it.
All right.
I really like your husband.
I do too.
He's a keeper.
The jury is in though for the kiddos and decidedly do not like it.
I know.
I said, girls, what do you think of the podcast?
And my daughter who is not one to mince words, I didn't like it.
(03:47):
It was boring.
Well, to be fair, your daughter is not our target market.
She is definitely not.
I know she will be in the C-suite one day, but she's not there yet.
Well, I'm just saying.
So this may not be a hit with Generation Alpha, but I think that elder millennial vibe that
we're going for is spot on.
Elder millennials love it.
(04:10):
So hats off to you for turning for us.
Oh, hats off to you.
Can we actually take this off of my little tiny rubber bands snaps and then my child
cries.
All right.
In all seriousness, Elliot, in all seriousness though, tell me what's on your mind this week.
Let's get back to the topic of Tech into the Limit, which is digital transformation in
healthcare.
(04:30):
What is on your mind when you think about what's happening in our industry as of late?
The thing that pops into my mind, and I know this is not a podcast for legal issues and
this is not a podcast for political views and things like that, but I do want to bring
up a point that I've noticed with the recent Supreme Court decision around affirmative
action.
(04:51):
And it really got me thinking about what that decision and decisions like it that are further
exacerbating disparities that we are seeing with the social determinants of health.
Think about the Dobbs decision and its impact on reproductive rights and how that disproportionately
will impact historically marginalized groups and how this particular recent decision on
(05:14):
affirmative action is going to negatively affect the trend toward culturally competent
care in this country and further impede innovation acceleration within the healthcare industry
and frankly all industries.
And when I was doing some kind of thinking about this, I found a couple of articles I
thought really spoke to this.
One was in Scientific American, there was a great quote here that said, success is not
(05:37):
a finite resource, society does better generation after generation.
I think that is a key point when you're thinking about affirmative action is the generational
build up of capability both in academia and in wealth, et cetera.
When we extend educational opportunities to people who historically haven't gotten them,
white students benefit educationally from diversity, black people live longer when they
(05:59):
have black doctors in study after study, more diversity makes for better work, more innovation
happens, more people make money to support the economy and accomplishments are more meaningful
when we lift others up instead of pulling the ladder up.
And I think that is what we're seeing, that ladder is just being pulled up by an increasingly
conservative court.
I thought this quote from Omar Ateeq, who's a president of American College of Physicians
(06:21):
was rather prescient in Becker's, considering race as one of the many determining factors
used when considering an individual's admission to an education program can be an important
way to combat the harm that systemic racism and discrimination has in the United States.
And I feel like we're taking steps backward instead of toward restorative justice.
(06:42):
And then one other article that I thought was actually really interesting from 2020
was from the Proceedings of National Academy of Sciences in the USA.
This article was titled, the Diversity Innovation Paradox in Science.
And I thought this was incredible.
We talked about raising glasses to P values and these did a really good job of doing a
(07:02):
study comparing what happens when you have more diversity in academia and in business.
And what they found was that more novelty is introduced the more diverse the population
is, population that is creating that novelty.
So it is more innovative, the group is more innovative when the group is more diverse.
(07:25):
However, oftentimes with high statistical correlation, marginalized groups, i.e. not
white men, often have those novelties discounted so they are not adopted at the same rate.
So even when you have diverse groups, you still have work to do.
And here we are having taken a step back from innovation.
(07:48):
Now it's not great that that article happens to show up in a magazine called Penis.
I think it's called PNAS.
I don't know how you pronounce it, but I thought that was interesting.
Let's ask Chat Cheapie T, shall we?
You pronounce that.
So you get where I'm coming from.
This decision will lead to less innovation in all industries and specifically will impact
(08:14):
marginalized groups in healthcare.
Let's connect the dots because I think you are making this very relevant for our listeners.
But with the recent decision to essentially do away with affirmative action, it's going
to have an impact on the makeup of future classes that matriculate into higher educational
institutions and have opportunities to achieve advanced degrees in medicine, for instance,
(08:39):
but in business as well.
And that is going to affect what the makeup of the industry looks like five to 10 years
from now.
And that is going to essentially homogenize, again, certain boardrooms and certain recruitment
efforts in our industry and impact our ability to see the world from a diversity of perspectives
(09:01):
and introduce that novelty into our teams.
Absolutely.
And so I think that that is so relevant.
And I'm really glad that you brought up this heavy topic because I think it's been on everybody's
minds.
And I think this is just another forum to process, OK, like, what's the impact?
How is this relevant?
How does this impact me?
I don't have a child applying for college, but I work in an industry that's fast evolving.
(09:25):
And I want to know how this is going to impact my work and my team's work going forward.
And so I appreciate your bringing up an air quotes heavy topic in a light space.
What's been on my mind recently is a really exciting new segment that we have to introduce
to our listeners called Techpocalypse Now.
Techpocalypse Now?
(09:46):
Tell us what that's about.
We're going to take turns reading to one another futuristic product names and descriptions.
And the other co-host has to guess which products are real and which products are fake news.
Yeah, I'm so excited for this.
I came up with some doozies and I think you're really going to like them.
(10:08):
Yeah, the doing the homework for this segment was was just as fun as the delivery is going
to be.
Why don't we take a quick break and when we come back, we'll start it off with Techpocalypse
Now.
Dun, dun, dun.
Dun, dun, dun.
We crack ourselves up.
(10:32):
Welcome back to Tech it to the limit.
And it's time for Techpocalypse Now.
I love the smell of AI in the morning.
So Elliot, do you want to fool me first or shall I fool you first?
Whichever is clever.
I did create five and unknown number of them are real.
(10:55):
I'm not going to tell you how many.
Two truths and a lie, but we don't know how many truths.
I am feeling the need to budge into the front of the creative line here.
So I'm going to go first.
Let's take turns.
So I will read you two and then you can tell me which one you think is the real product
and which one is the fake product and then we'll swap and you got it.
(11:16):
So I love it.
I love it.
OK.
Say hello to the Ember Wave 2, the extraordinary personal cooling and heating device that will
turn you into the handiest superhero in town.
Picture this with a mere flick of your wrist.
You can summon your desired body temperature like a god, making you the master of your
(11:36):
own thermal destiny.
Whether you're battling, right?
Especially in this season, whether you're battling the blistering heat of summer or
locked in a frigid frosty fight, Ember Wave 2 swoops in to save the day, become the envy
of every social gathering as you casually summon a refreshing Arctic breeze to cool
(11:57):
you down or unleash a tropical blast that will leave everyone around you questioning
their sanity.
This futuristic gizmo isn't just a temperature controller, it's a cosmic masterpiece.
Get ready to embrace your inner Captain Cool or Captain Hot with Ember Wave 2 because being
a hero has never been so easy.
(12:17):
Ember Wave 2.
OK, so that's product one.
I will say that feels very chat GPT like dialogue.
Yeah.
So, Elliot, you know that I'm a chat GPT prompting whiz.
So this is going to be extra, extra challenging for you.
OK, ready for product two?
And listeners, you can play along, you know, like just like do your thing where you're
(12:40):
like, oh, I wonder if that's real or fake.
OK, looking to shed a few extra pounds without breaking a sweat?
Introducing the Nano Slim Weight Loss Patch.
This revolutionary patch harnesses the power of nanotechnology to make weight loss a breeze.
Simply apply the patch to your skin and tiny nanobots get to work, stimulating your metabolism
(13:00):
and curving your appetite.
As these microscopic marvels go to town on your excess fluff, you'll marvel at the slimming
effects.
Plus, the patch comes in funky designs like Slim Cheetah and Mountain Man Plad.
So you can flaunt your fashionable weight loss journey while still divulging your guilty
pleasures because nanobots, duh.
(13:21):
Do you think nanobots is really what Ozempic really is?
And it's not just because of the hash tag of all right.
What do you think?
What's real and what's fake news?
So if I'm understanding correctly, Nano Slim is literally releasing nanobots into your
body to hack away at fat cells.
(13:43):
Is that correct?
You pretty much have like you're giving consent to a bunch of tiny microscopic ninjas going
in there and just blasting away.
As much as I want that to be real and I want that on my body at all times.
I have my own heating clothing and I know that air conditioning clothing exists as well.
(14:08):
So the ability to like dial your mattress kind of setting on it to whatever you want,
I feel is not that far fetched.
I'm going with Ember Waves of Grain is the real product.
Can I get it?
Give some applause for Elliot.
You got it right.
Very good.
Very good.
It's some inspiration from a project that I'm working on currently targeting perimenopausal
(14:33):
women and those are two top concerns for that consumer segment, right?
Which is like hot flashes and weight gain.
And so there's a lot of activity in the digital health tech startup space when it comes to
meeting women's health needs.
Well, Femtech and AgeTech are two extremely important niches that need a lot of focus,
(14:56):
especially Femtech.
And I just love that Femtech.
I mean, it's so jargony.
It just makes me want to puke a little bit in my mouth.
A lot of the startups in Femtech are so focused on breastfeeding and there's so many different
apps and different startups out there all focused on that and be like, hello, women
(15:19):
need other things than that.
Older women care about things beyond just skin appearance, right?
That's why I love Gracie and Frankie on Netflix.
Okay, hit me with the test.
I am so excited.
I got my desert ready, Alec.
All right.
Test number one, Medisense 360, the revolutionary AR companion for doctors.
(15:45):
Keeping an eye out to protect your license.
Medisense 360 is the cutting edge digital health solution designed exclusively for doctors.
Combining advanced computer vision and audio technologies, this app transforms augmented
reality headsets and glasses into an intelligent real-time risk assessment tool.
With Medisense 360, physicians can navigate their clinical environment with confidence
(16:09):
as the app analyzes everything they see and hear, identifying potential malpractice risks
instantly.
It constantly monitors the physician's surroundings, analyzing patient interactions, medical procedures,
and environmental factors to detect any possible risks.
The app delivers practical advice, cautionary prompts, and best practice recommendations
ensuring doctors are equipped with the information they need to mitigate risks effectively.
(16:32):
Embrace the future of healthcare with Medisense 360 and redefine excellence in medical practice.
That sounds like the walking on water of technologies.
So I'm just going to put a pin in that.
I've got my pin in.
Hit me with the next product.
All right.
The next product is Urine DX, urine control.
Introducing Urine DX, empowering smart urinary health.
(16:57):
Urine DX is a revolutionary digital health product designed to provide comprehensive
insights into urinary health.
By integrating a cutting edge sensor system into your toilet, Urine DX transforms the
ordinary into an extraordinary tool for monitoring and managing various urinary conditions.
With advanced data analysis and personalized recommendation, it aims to tackle key challenges
related to obstruction, UTIs, chronic disease, kidney disease, and bladder cancer.
(17:20):
Sensor technology accurately captures and analyzes urine samples, gathering essential
data related to urine composition, flow rates, and other crucial urinary indicators.
Urine DX establishes a streamless connection between patients and their healthcare providers
or clinical teams.
It securely transmits relevant data, ensuring timely updates and collaborative care management.
Urine DX represents a significant leap forward.
(17:42):
Embrace the power of Urine DX and take control of your urinary wellbeing like never before,
or else you're in trouble.
Oh, God.
Yes.
My guess is that Urine DX is the real product.
Again, because one, what's the word, your tell in poker is computer vision.
(18:03):
You're like so jazzed about computer vision right now.
I love computer vision.
It's true.
Yeah.
I'm like, oh, you just showed me.
You did like your tell, right?
I did.
We were playing a game of Texas Hold'em.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And also like just like with FemTech, right?
Men's health is a huge segment in the market that's emerging.
(18:24):
And I happen to be aware of the technology related to excrement analysis.
So why not urine?
No, absolutely.
And there's some really amazing products out there.
I mean, this is one of them.
Aside from the point, men are traditionally really bad at taking care of their own health.
(18:48):
And when they have, especially something that is so private, well, I mean, but they're better
than men at doing it.
I mean, we manage the health care for the household, for the whole family.
Right.
But we typically deprioritize our own needs over those of the family.
100%.
And men could, I mean, we're speaking to straight families here, right?
But men, I don't need to see a doctor.
(19:09):
Right.
Well, they could take a little bit more ownership of at least their own health to take some
of that burden off.
Right.
And when you make it fun, I mean, that's literally their tagline.
I didn't make that up.
You're in control.
Making it fun is like a game of pong in the toilet.
So when somebody comes up with that, I would like to invest.
Okay.
So what did we win, Elliot?
(19:31):
We both got it right.
Tell us what we won.
What is our getaway vacation?
Two hours of free babysitting?
That would be great.
But I think that, so if we both won, we didn't come up with something if we had a tie.
It's a tie.
It's like football, right?
Like I'm talking about football.
Yeah.
I'm talking about football.
I'm talking about football.
I'm talking about football.
I'm talking about football.
I'm talking about football.
I'm talking about football.
I'm talking about football.
I'm talking about football in the European sense, right?
Yes.
Yes.
Like ties are acceptable.
(19:52):
Yeah.
You know, let's channel the inner Ted Lasso and just be cool with that.
Oh my God, Sarah, that was so much fun.
It was really fun.
I felt like I was on a game show.
But I didn't leave with a pile of cash or a new car.
No, just you're a millennial.
You got a participation trophy.
It's not a trophy.
It's a ribbon.
That's great.
That was so much fun doing Tech Pop Clips now.
(20:17):
If you listeners have an idea for a crazy futuristic app that you think should be out
there, please let us know.
Comment on LinkedIn, comment on Twitter, maybe on threads, but comment and let us know what
you come up with.
We'd love to hear them.
So coming up after the break, we have a very special guest.
(20:38):
Sarah, who's going to be joining us?
Dr. Norma Padrone, CEO and founder of Empirica Labs and highly decorated digital healthcare
group.
Really excited about that conversation.
So stick around.
We'll be right back.
(21:00):
Introducing the Emotionally Intelligent Scalpel, the surgical tool that's about to revolutionize
and harmonize an operating room near you.
This futuristic marvel isn't your average scalpel.
It's a blade with as much intuition and empathy as your therapist.
Designed to detect the stress levels of surgeons, this cutting edge instrument adjusts its vibration
(21:22):
intensity according to the nerves of the end user.
The more your hand shakes, the more precise the scalpel becomes, ensuring exact incisions
and fewer dramatic moments.
Say goodbye to those hard pounding edge of your seat surgical scenes after pulling an
all-nighter because your trainee was on holiday, because thanks to the Emotionally Intelligent
Scalpel, it's easy to keep calm and slice on.
(21:45):
Whether it's your first procedure or your thousand, this extraordinary instrument offers
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So have that extra latte, grub in, and let the Emotionally Intelligent Scalpel bring
harmony to your operating room, one incision at a time.
(22:06):
To score a discount on your very own Emotionally Intelligent Scalpel, visit EmpathicOR.com
and enter the promo code TECHLIMIT.
Malpractice insurance sold separately.
(22:26):
Well welcome back to Tech into the Limit and get ready to meet a fierce and fabulous first
gen Latina entrepreneur helping to catapult the healthcare industry into the digital age.
Dr. Norma Padron is the CEO and founder of Empirica Lab, a company that specializes in
peer-to-peer training within healthcare organizations to help them accelerate digital transformation.
(22:49):
Fun fact, Dr. Padron has more advanced degrees than Donald Trump has indictments, current
and pending, including a doctorate in health policy and management from Yale, a master's
in health economics from Duke, and a master's in public health from the Universitat Pompeu
Fabra in Barcelona, Spain.
She is a virtual guru when it comes to digital transformation, having conquered the distant
(23:10):
realms of STEM education and led squadrons through disparate galaxies of health academia,
nonprofits, and the dreaded private sector.
On the daily, Dr. Padron wields dual superpowers of entrepreneurship and data analytics to
revolutionize digital health products, churn out value-based care models, and slay quality
measurement.
(23:31):
Brace yourselves because she is about to give healthcare a much needed digital makeover.
Welcome Norma.
May I call you Norma?
Yes, you can.
Hi Elliot.
Hi Sarah.
Nice to see you.
Great to have you.
So Norma, when we bring our guests on, we like to offer them the opportunity if they
want, but we'd like to offer you the opportunity to share your favorite dad joke.
(23:55):
We love a little pun humor, things that are punny.
What do you have for us?
I think you guys are going to have to take away this one.
I love laughing, not really good at making jokes myself.
So Sarah, what do you got?
Okay, so this one is my kid's favorite joke.
I'm a mother.
I'm two little ones, and they literally tell it to each other on the way to school without
(24:16):
fail every morning.
Why did the banana go to the hospital?
Oh no, it's lying.
Because it wasn't peeling well.
Okay, well there you go.
My kids are going to be so happy because their joke is now on a really super famous podcast.
That's great.
(24:37):
That's such a good joke.
Well, let's get right into it.
Norma, thank you again for joining us.
And given your incredible global background, what inspired you to pursue a career in health
entrepreneurship and what is your purpose that drives you forward?
I like to ask people, how do you want to change the world?
So I really appreciate you saying this.
So thank you so much.
(24:58):
I think I'm very proud of all the accomplishments and education and things that I worked on.
It's always really easy to look back and think of it as very linear.
I don't know that I started thinking that I would end up in entrepreneurship and I don't
know that I started thinking that I would end up working just sort of in the different
roles that I've had.
I was very interested initially in just why was health and healthcare separate things,
(25:26):
so complex.
And I was very interested in human behavior.
I was very interested in why we interact in healthcare.
We say we want to be healthy.
We're not very healthy.
You know, oftentimes we make bad decisions.
I was very interested in just sort of that.
And so what drives me right now, I think, is that over the last 12 years that I've
(25:46):
been working in healthcare, I became really, really interested in adoption, adapting and
adopting to technology.
I thought that the missing link had been always focusing on human behavior.
So I kind of came full circle to where I started, which is we ended up spending the first decade
between 2000 and 2010 investing in a lot of technologies to digitize electronic health
(26:11):
records and processes in healthcare.
We have 99% adoption in healthcare and electronic health records.
And then we spent 2010, 2020 fascinated by these technologies and data and computational
power that now we can do so many things.
And then the missing link continues to be just adoption, right?
(26:31):
And so the human in the loop sort of has gotten lost and that's reflected in how technologies
get experienced within healthcare organizations.
And I've been fortunate enough to, as an economist, just have my office inside hospitals.
So I think that sort of changed my thinking about both my training, but also deep in my
understanding on human behavior and how humans behave inside this organization.
(26:55):
The stakes are really high.
Technology has to be very precise, but also incorporate how actually we work under stress.
And so I'm very interested in the human factor.
So workforce development, workforce training became as a product of all these years, sort
(27:15):
of my main purpose now.
Noamad, thank you so much for talking about where your office wants, because I think that's
a critical component to getting adoption, right?
Because those that are designing and deploying digital health tools need to get their boots
on the ground and get out there and understand the end user experience.
So I think that's a critical piece to successful adoption of digital transformation technologies.
(27:40):
So I'm really glad that you mentioned that you had that experience of your office being
sort of co-located with your end users.
I'm going to kind of pivot to another question and ask you what excites you about this space
right now, because as we all know, there's a lot of activity in the digital health product
space.
It seems like almost too much to be able to really pay attention to.
(28:01):
There's just a lot of noise.
There's a lot of activity.
So could you just share some examples in your experience of emerging products in the digital
health space that you find particularly exciting or promising?
Yeah, I guess in the space that you generally think of like categories, so there's the category
of digitally enabled, right?
So care that is just in-person care, but gets enabled via technology or digitally delivered.
(28:27):
So therapeutics, digital therapeutics, and then there's care enablement.
And obviously, my company, my day-to-day is in the care enablement space.
So these are the tools and technologies that help augment humans on the ground to deliver
care in better ways.
So it does include integration of data.
(28:47):
So I'm very interested and very excited about how, for example, health information exchanges
have done a lot of work in the space in population health that is actually very meaningful, tracking
patient populations, making sure that patients are followed in better ways.
So that's very exciting for me.
But I think in the digital therapeutics space, the sensors are getting ever more exciting.
(29:09):
I think that they pass through the fires a whole decade of trying to validate and standardize
and normalize how we think of that information.
And so I think they're ripe for success.
There are companies in the musculoskeletal space that I'm really, really interested
on.
They're using AI.
It is bring your own device, but the algorithms are sort of really able to see how individuals
(29:34):
perform their physical therapy.
And I think that's really, really exciting.
That's about being just at home and just following up your pre surgery, post surgery, rehab,
and then being tracked, monitored.
So I'm really excited about that.
So sorry, go on.
No, I was going to ask a question about that because I love that space.
Are you referring to, as one of those examples, some computer vision applications for PT at
(29:57):
home?
I've seen a number of different products out there that have been layering that on to ensure
proper movement, automatic measuring of the angle of the movement to see how they're progressing.
So are you seeing all that kind of stuff that you have to go back to the PT regularly for
that costs people money that may not be necessary?
Absolutely.
(30:17):
And what's so interesting about this is sort of like you have the convergence of three
factors.
So on one hand, you get much faster, better computation.
So now we're able to ingest the data, train the algorithms, be so much better in our vision
algorithms.
We also have that in some sensor devices.
So temperature is a very, very interesting vital sign right now for preventing pressure
(30:38):
ulcers, which all prevent amputations.
So if you had this, so computation got really, really good.
We were really, really able to train the algorithms.
And so we came to a point where it doesn't matter what device you're using, the algorithms
are really, really good.
And I'm very interested in that.
It used to be the case that depending on the sensor you had or the device you had, or you
(30:59):
had to purchase this device and so it was a little bit messy to manage all that technology.
But now computation got so good, the algorithms got really good.
Then you were able to democratize the sensors.
Yes.
And I think that that's when you're thinking about population health.
And so you're thinking about an individual that might be in an underserved community
and you're saying like, how are we going to be preventing amputations and certain like
(31:21):
you map it out.
And so in some geographies and have some published research on this, in some geographies, like
you just have like higher rates of amputations.
And that feels really, really unfair.
And so then on top of that to ask, no, but you have to have the latest iPhone or whatever,
the latest iPad feels really unfair.
And so I'm really excited about technologies where just computation got so, so good that
(31:42):
it doesn't matter what device you're using, just sort of we can reach you wherever you
are.
So there's some stuff going on in musculoskeletal that I'm very excited.
There's some stuff in sensors, particularly using temperature as a vital sign that I'm
really excited.
Diabetes is obviously a huge problem in the US.
Amputation is the most expensive one.
Yeah.
And amputation is sort of this point where like quality of life absolutely changes, right?
(32:07):
So opportunities work, change a lot.
And so now you have like maths and, you know, a ton of things, like a variety of products
that I'm not going to go into the names, but what I'm excited about is that now we can
monitor the changes that like really, really like precise changes in temperature that can
actually preempt that pressure ulcer and ultimately prevent that amputation.
(32:29):
And so I'm excited about technologies that are highly specialized in the, I guess, chronic
disease management and prevention, but that use this sort of now bring your own device
thing, but they're so good on the computation and the algorithm design that can prevent
it.
I'm going to ask a devil's advocate question.
So when we talk about bring your own device, I think, and we talk about sensor technology,
(32:51):
that sounds expensive to me.
You know, how, if I'm in an underserved population, how am I going to afford that?
Like, do you have knowledge of the price point of the products that you're talking about?
And is there enough competition where price is starting to turn downward?
There's a lot that is changing really, really rapidly.
And so I will say like, so you can think of, for example, audio as well.
(33:12):
So there are technologies around audio that can help, again, just tailor the algorithm
to understand changes on breathing, for example.
A lot of these technologies came around COVID and this were about just sort of like really
understanding respiratory health using audio data.
There's a lot of audio data to train models.
So a lot of like health insurance companies, customer service, you know, companies, they
(33:36):
ask you if they can record that conversation and that can be helpful in sort of this.
And obviously with proper consent to train this algorithm.
So audio, temperature, and then of course, the sort of remote monitoring or visual sort
of data is sort of really, really interesting to me.
Keeping us moving along, you're wonderful to speak to and so brilliant.
(33:56):
I could go on for hours, I'm sure.
What are some of the strategies that healthcare organizations can adopt to effectively integrate
those products into their existing programs?
So you mentioned about human factors being your focus and being such a critical component.
I'm thinking about governance.
I'm thinking about policy and procedure, et cetera.
(34:18):
You know, what are those things that healthcare organizations should be thinking about implementing
or guardrails, et cetera, that they should have in their system when they're doing that
integration?
So one thing to acknowledge is probably that actually there's a lot going on right in healthcare,
healthcare delivery.
And I think that we just sort of always sort of the default is to say everything sucks,
nothing is working.
(34:39):
We should all change everything to hell with electronic health records.
Wait, are you talking about politics?
No, I'm not.
I'm just like, there's a lot, so healthcare organizations, so you have to understand like
every time you visit the emergency room, you are in touch with some of the highest qualified
individuals with some of the most expensive equipment that there exists.
(35:01):
And in some communities actually, so it's not only that hospitals are just sort of like
the hub of technology, but they have the hold like just in that in their radius within the
hospital, the highest qualified individuals in those communities, like the more degrees,
the more trained, et cetera, and highest cost equipment and things like that.
And so there's a lot that is going right in healthcare in the US.
(35:24):
From there, there's a lot that is not right that is going on.
And a lot of what is not going on right tends to be about a lot of collaboration or data
sharing.
And a lot of it is what happens like what happens outside the walls of the hospital.
And I think that that's where digital health technologies could so complement the health
(35:45):
part of healthcare.
Care would be your nurse taking care of you, your doctor, you get the care that happens
inside the hospital.
That doesn't always result in health outcomes, right?
So we see it in life expectancy.
We see in sort of like how outside of hospitals, like the newborns that are low birth weight,
for example, don't survive as much, et cetera.
(36:06):
So there's a lot of challenges that happen outside.
And that's where I think digitally enabled and digital delivery of care happens to be
very exciting.
It's easier to do it in places where it's very tractable and we know what should happen.
And so I just want to acknowledge that in a lot of care delivery, there's just a lot
of uncertainty.
So when you come through, let's say the emergency department, they don't necessarily know what
(36:30):
is it that you're going to need, right?
So they go through a series of protocols to assess that.
But if we already know what you need.
So we already know that you've just been diagnosed while you were inpatient, you came in for
a heart attack.
But while you were inpatient, we learned that you also have diabetes, right?
And so there's a series of things that should happen after you leave.
(36:50):
And I think that that's where digital health technology gets very exciting.
I think that's a huge opportunity for places of care to connect the dots.
Oftentimes they don't.
And so I think that those are the technologies where it's easier or at least more clear to
do that.
If after discharge, for example, there's the first 30, 60, 90 days after discharge from
(37:12):
stroke are fundamentally going to determine how the rest of your life is going to look
like.
Right.
And so there's so much that we could be doing.
It doesn't need to happen inpatient.
And actually, there's a lot of technologies that could help us ensure that your quality
of life is much better.
And it happens outside.
And I think that there's a lot of health systems really trying to figure it out.
(37:35):
Interestingly, I found that children's hospitals are like, like hogs of technology adoption.
And I was asking a doctor friend of mine recently, like, why is that?
Like, why are so technology forward?
And he said, you have working age parents, fully digital, fully invested in utilization
(37:56):
of these technologies.
And that was beautiful.
And I think it's very clear that that's why we have children's hospitals be so advanced.
But yeah, I mean, I would say I would just sort of like to in that question that you
made earlier, I just acknowledge that there's a lot that is happening that is right.
And then it sort of breaks down and like what happens after you leave.
(38:17):
I love your optimism.
You don't.
Yeah.
Right.
And you made the point.
It is cool to dump on health care.
Right?
Yeah.
Maybe it's not cool.
Maybe it's just like default.
Right.
That's our default.
We're like, let's all complain about it.
Kind of like, you know, the election season.
But it's realistic optimism.
(38:38):
Right.
And I think that that's an important perspective to keep in mind.
I like that you pointed out transitional care management as a real key point of success
in digital health care, where we continue to expand the walls of health care and broaden
the definition of what is transitional versus what is ongoing versus what is inpatient care,
(39:01):
virtual inpatient care, even digital health products are going to play such a big role
in that.
And I think that's a really great point to call out.
I would also like to just emphasize your call out about pediatric patients and their families
as early adopters of digital health technologies.
I've definitely observed that in my work, my day job outside of this podcast.
(39:23):
And I think there's a lot of opportunity sort of as a pediatric or a testing ground for
that population that frequently is an afterthought when we're designing health systems and interventions
or education, what have you.
So a lot of opportunity in that space.
So people want to go after it, in my opinion.
I know we're just past time here.
(39:45):
I really wanted to make sure we got to this question because of your background in entrepreneurship.
Norma, as an entrepreneur, you know that failure is a gift because it affords us the opportunity
to turn mistakes into insights.
Can you give us some recent examples where, in your opinion, health tech has failed to
drive value for providers and nurses and patients?
(40:07):
And what can entrepreneurs and health systems learn from these failures?
That's such a good question.
I recognize that it's very well suited, but I'm an incredibly competitive person.
So I would not say that failure is a gift.
But yeah, so let's assume for this question that it is a gift.
Sure.
She's arguing the premise of the question, Santa.
(40:29):
I like her.
So I don't think that necessarily it's a failure.
I think that there was this assumption, but listen, it was very collective, right?
I think that we were coming from a fee-for-service world.
We're still in it, by the way.
And it was sort of like we had this wake-up call and we said, this is wrong.
(40:51):
We should be paying for health, not only the services.
And why don't we do that?
And then we spent a decade talking about value-based care as if it was a whole panacea and it was
just amazing.
And just because we were marginally going to pay a little bit differently, magical things
would happen.
(41:11):
And I think that a lot of early stage companies fell into that trap.
And so started, I mean, I've heard them many times and I'm sure you both as well say things
like we'll go at risk, right?
We have skin in the game, right?
And not really understanding what the baseline of that population is, not really understanding
(41:34):
what the appropriate clinical pathway looks like or should look like, not really understanding
what the standard of care is.
And not the standard of care as in the realistic one, excuse me, the book one, but like what
is actually happening on the ground.
People couple together resources and things.
And so I think the failure was to force fit technology that was almost unrealistically
(42:02):
aiming for behaviors that were just not happening on the ground.
So you'd hear, I mean, I think that's true and I don't mean to bash like behavioral health
companies, but I think that's true for a lot of sort of behavioral health companies that
came in and said, you know, there's lack of access.
And so then I'm just going to coordinate a lot of physicians, a lot of mental health
providers on this app and or I'm going to get this algorithm or this chat button and
(42:28):
surely this will be better.
And so if you don't understand what should be happening, what the standard of care should
be and then what the standard of care is, you think you might think that this is going
to be improvement.
And I think that there was a lot of like optimism that wasn't really grounded on subject matter,
sort of like expertise, but also knowing the realities on the population health on the
(42:50):
ground.
I think that maybe another failure and it's not a failure for like either the the entrepreneur
side or certainly is one that I'm also at risk of committing is that health care is
very geographic.
And so you might have actually a geography that is working really, really well because
(43:10):
your technology is mapping out IRL in ways that make sense.
And then you go to another region or another state and your technology does not map out.
And it was this sort of like pretentiousness that we could solve it with technology, not
knowing that on the back end, there was going to be a care navigator picking up the phone.
(43:34):
There was going to be a data analyst knowing the triggers for that data.
There's going to be a nurse practitioner like actually making the call to see the patient
was OK.
And so that technology is not mapping out IRL in appropriate ways.
You might be fooled that it worked in New York or California.
And you know what?
It just doesn't work out in Mississippi.
(43:55):
And so I think that there was a lot of, I guess, just optimism that wasn't grounded
on the geographies.
Wow, I mean, it's profoundly simple, but yet we need to be reminded of that.
You know?
OK, two things.
IRL, I know what she means, Elliot.
Thanks to you, I just love this friendship, you know, introducing me to all these wonderful
(44:18):
acronyms and industry jargon.
But also, I think what you're saying, Norma, like I'm just going to just plain language
it because I think you said it in such a beautiful way.
Like, it's worth repeating that we need to understand our customers' needs.
And the only way to do that is to get out of our design rooms and get into their spaces,
(44:39):
whether they're clinicians or patients or communities.
And the companies that are really going to make a difference in designing solutions that
solve real problems are those that have the resources and the gumption to get out there
and see firsthand and really truly understand the problem at its root before designing a
solution for it, right?
(45:00):
Right, right.
Otherwise, you end up building applications, as you mentioned, Norma, that were designed
for a VBC world.
And then you went out and tried to sell it to an FFS world.
And that just doesn't work.
Hey, let's get some more acronyms in that sentence.
I know all the TLAs.
Wonderful.
Well, this has been really fun, Norma, to just connect with you in a different space,
(45:25):
you know, outside of your day job, which is running Empirica Lab.
Check it out, listeners.
If you want to learn more, they have a wonderful website.
And Norma, I'm sure we'd be happy to connect with you offline if you'd like to learn more.
Norma, where can people find you online?
Well, you know, LinkedIn nowadays, the cool kids move to LinkedIn.
I'm sure there's more social media networks going off, but...
(45:47):
I thought she just called us cool kids.
She totally did.
She totally did.
That's where we hang out.
Absolutely.
And LinkedIn, I think, is a good spot, and of course, our website at EmpiricaLab.com.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, both of you.
A pleasure to talk to you.
And scene.
All right.
(46:07):
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The thoughtful way to chart.
Well, welcome back listeners from our break.
(47:56):
We are so excited to have you back and we're really grateful for our amazing sponsors,
like the Emotionally Intelligent Scalpel.
Want to take this opportunity to thank our guest today, Dr. Norma Pedrone of empirical
lab.
Super engaging, brilliant, and fun person to connect with on this pod.
Like we do on every episode, Elliot and I enjoy nuggets, both the chicken and the learning
(48:21):
kind.
So we're going to share our favorite nugget with one another at the end of this pod.
What do we take away from the conversation essentially with Norma?
So I will pass the baton to you, Elliot, to talk about what your favorite nugget were
from our engagement with our guest today.
Absolutely, and just for the record, I find that Burger King is superior than McDonald's
(48:45):
in terms of nuggets.
But the things that I want to actually talk about from-
Hey, we don't plug products unless they are fake health tech products on this show.
I'll go back and bleep it out.
I think there was a couple of really cool things that we talked about in that conversation.
She has really got such a wealth of experience and knowledge in all of these spaces.
(49:06):
So you could probably rewind to any part of it and find something that was really meaningful.
Some things that stood out to me, I love the way that she broke the digital healthcare
industry down into sort of three different kinds of buckets of technologies.
Digital tools for care delivery, tools for therapeutics, specifically calling out sensors
(49:27):
and musculoskeletal use cases for computer vision.
You know how much I love computer vision.
And then care enablement tools, which is her area of focus, which really are more around
those kinds of things that make care easier when the clinicians and folks are providing
your care.
It's not necessarily the delivery care, it's what tools can they use to make their care
(49:49):
easier.
And that could be something like a generative AI that we use to so much joy here on the
pod.
So I think those three were really great ways to kind of bring it down to something easily
tangible.
I also thought her point around the growth of computational power, along with the sophistication
of the algorithms being developed over the last few years, have really led to a democratization
(50:10):
of sensor capability in the field, which does a lot to alleviate the challenges that we
see related to solve issues with the social determinants of health.
We don't need to have the most expensive products out there because we have such great computational
power, because we have such great sophisticated algorithms that the sensors themselves become
(50:34):
less of an issue, less expensive, et cetera.
And then finally, I really liked the conversation we had around optimism.
We talked about it a little bit.
I do believe that it is kind of like on fleek to dump on health care these days.
Okay, learn me.
What is on fleek?
(50:54):
Okay.
Yeah.
So on fleek is no longer on fleek.
That's how elder millennial I am.
It's passe.
It is passe.
It's super passe.
But it means on point, right?
It means on trend.
Okay.
It is trendy.
It is hip, whatever it may be, to kind of dump on health care.
And she rejects that notion.
She really has this great viewpoint on it, and it's a realistic optimism.
(51:20):
And I think that where she sees the most optimism is around using digital health tools for,
like, advancing transitional care, longitudinal care outside of the walls of health care,
which is already doing lots of great stuff inside the health care.
Now, how do we expand that outward?
Now, personally, I'm a pessimist because that way I'm either right or pleasantly surprised.
(51:42):
And both of those are acceptable outcomes to me.
I look at that same market, that same industry, and I worry, given our capitalist society
and the winner-take-all kind of attitude around capital, there's going to be so much competition
in that space.
Who's going to win?
We're going to suffer through a lot of consolidation and bad stuff that is going to get put into
(52:04):
the marketplace.
I worry about the speed with which we actually will be able to use digital tools to solve
these crises before they become too much.
So that's just my pessimism.
But I know that you're an optimist as well.
So I'm kind of curious as to what you thought about her optimism.
You know, I thought I was really refreshing.
And I definitely know next time I get chicken nuggets, I'm going to order you like a big
(52:26):
order.
You have a lot of nuggets this year.
I love how into it, into this conversation you were today, Elliot.
So awesome.
Thank you for sharing all of your insights with our listeners.
I am an optimist, as you say, and I really appreciated Norma's perspective on picking
a look at what is going well in the industry, what are existing resources and capabilities
(52:49):
from a human standpoint and a technology standpoint that we can really leverage.
And then the digital piece complements that, right?
It adds in a lot of capabilities outside of the facility, for instance, that she discussed.
So I really appreciated her just giving credit where it's due to an industry that has a lot
going for it, a lot of compassion and a lot of really mission driven servant leaders in
(53:14):
health care.
The other thing that I took away from it was that, you know, she started her dialogue with
this, which is that adoption and adaptation to new technologies continues to be a primary
barrier to acceleration of digital transformation in the industry.
And I couldn't agree more.
I think that my takeaway, it just reinforces my philosophy and how I approach my work is
(53:39):
we need boots on the ground.
We need to get into the end user experience as much as possible and we need not only clinician
involvement in the design, but we need patience, right?
We didn't talk much about that with Norma today, but I definitely know she would agree
if she's still around the call.
And so I think bringing in both of those perspectives, not just in the design sessions, but getting
(54:01):
out into the communities.
If she talked about how digital technologies don't always transfer from one geolocation
to the other, right?
Getting your boots on the ground doesn't just mean bringing the right stakeholders to the
table.
It means actually leaving your desk, getting off a virtual call and getting out there in
the field and seeing how healthcare is delivered before you start designing, when you're designing,
(54:24):
after you're designing, when you're trying to drive adoption.
All critical at those stages.
So those are my nuggets.
Maybe like also an extra large order.
That was pretty hefty.
That was a pretty hefty set of nuggets there.
I like that.
I do like chicken.
This is not a vegan podcast.
I just want to say thank you to our listeners.
Please check us out on social media on LinkedIn, where the cool kids are, as Norma says, Twitter,
(54:50):
Instagram, or even on Facebook if you still use it.
Not on thread yet, but likely will be shortly.
So please check us out on social.
And speaking of social, be sure to check out our upcoming healthcare haikus that we're
going to be starting to drop everywhere.
These are large language model enabled haikus.
And we would love for you to join us in that discussion with sharing your own LLM inspired
(55:15):
haikus in the comments.
Let us know what you think of ours.
And you know what?
We tend to use chat GPT here, but if you use BARD, if you use something else, by all means,
we don't discriminate.
We bring them all.
We want all those AI voices of our machine overlords to be represented.
AI equity.
Well, this has been a great conversation, great pod.
(55:41):
Thank you, Elliot.
Listeners, thank you for joining us.
Thank you, Dr. Padrone, for being our guest today.
And remember listeners, if you enjoyed what you heard today, it really helps us to optimize
our algorithms on your favorite podcast vendor.
And you would leave us a five star review.
And let's let's harken back to our preschool days.
(56:02):
And just remember the buddy system.
Okay, share.
If you like this pod, share it with one friend and help them cross the street safely in their
digital transformation journey.
Everything I learned about podcasting I learned in kindergarten.
I love it.
Oh yeah.
It sounds like a golden book.
Well, I can't wait to connect with you next time, Elliot, and deliver some awesome health
(56:24):
tech humor to our listeners.
Thanks again.
Thank you and happy birthday.
Happy birthday.
Tech to the Limit is produced by Sarah Harper and Elliot Wilson in consultation with ChatGPT
because they are masochists and also don't have any sponsors.
(56:46):
Yet music was composed by the world famous court minstrel, Evan O'Donovan.
To consume more hilarious and informative content by digital transformation and healthcare,
visit us online at TechItToTheLimit.Fun.
And don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and across the event horizon.
See you next time on TechItToTheLimit.
Welcome to Tech It To The Limit, the humorous and surprisingly informative podcast that
(00:22):
makes digital innovation and healthcare as entertaining as it is relevant.
I'm Sarah Harper.
And I'm Elliot Wilson.
And we're here to pull back the curtain on the world of digital transformation in healthcare.
Don't worry, you don't need a medical degree to join in on the fun.
Just a sense of humor and a penchant for all things health tech.
So buckle up, folks.
It's time to Tech It To The Limit.
(00:46):
Hey Elliot.
Hey Sarah.
Welcome back to Tech It To The Limit.
So excited to be here.
It's my favorite place to be.
It's like Sesame Street for adults who are having midlife crises.
As evidenced by the hat that I'm wearing right now.
(01:08):
It is very pom-pom-y.
So why are you wearing that hat?
Sarah, happy birthday to you.
And happy birthday to you, good friend.
Oh, thank you so much.
For our listeners, Elliot and I both turned a multiple of 13 this past month.
That's what you're going with?
(01:29):
That's what I'm going with.
I'm just like impressed with my math.
Factorally, we are still below 40.
We are.
Which is important only because society says it is.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think we both come from groups that do not put a lot of stock in turning 40, right?
You've got the whole women thing.
I've got the whole gay man thing.
(01:50):
Nobody really wants to see us turn 40, especially not ourselves.
I've been getting a lot of ads for face creams recently.
So you can just keep that thought to yourself.
Better than the ED stuff that I keep getting.
Oh dear.
Oh dear.
Hey, this is a PG-13 podcast.
Oh, right.
Yes.
So you need to check it.
For our listeners, we are both wearing conically shaped hats.
(02:15):
Mine keeps sliding off because of my headset.
But it was made by my beloved eight-year-old to honor my not quite midlife crisis.
And mine was made in the last eight seconds and certainly is indicative of my midlife
crisis.
You have some mad crafting skills for a last minute crafter, I must say.
(02:39):
It's amazing what having a six-year-old girl in your house will do to your supply of pom-poms,
like cleaners and construction paper.
Yeah.
She's either going to find that very inspiring in the morning or be like, dad, why did you
use my pom-poms?
You didn't ask permission first.
She knows what her inventory is and she will give me grief for it.
(02:59):
Oh, that's funny.
Speaking of my daughter though, we talked last time about whether or not my girls were
going to like this podcast.
And I have an update for you.
So we recently went down to Assateague Island in Maryland to camp and on the way down there,
I suggested to my husband that we should listen to the podcast, see what he thought of it.
(03:22):
And great news, he really likes it.
All right.
I really like your husband.
I do too.
He's a keeper.
The jury is in though for the kiddos and decidedly do not like it.
I know.
I said, girls, what do you think of the podcast?
And my daughter who is not one to mince words, I didn't like it.
(03:47):
It was boring.
Well, to be fair, your daughter is not our target market.
She is definitely not.
I know she will be in the C-suite one day, but she's not there yet.
Well, I'm just saying.
So this may not be a hit with Generation Alpha, but I think that elder millennial vibe that
we're going for is spot on.
Elder millennials love it.
(04:10):
So hats off to you for turning for us.
Oh, hats off to you.
Can we actually take this off of my little tiny rubber bands snaps and then my child
cries.
All right.
In all seriousness, Elliot, in all seriousness though, tell me what's on your mind this week.
Let's get back to the topic of Tech into the Limit, which is digital transformation in
healthcare.
(04:30):
What is on your mind when you think about what's happening in our industry as of late?
The thing that pops into my mind, and I know this is not a podcast for legal issues and
this is not a podcast for political views and things like that, but I do want to bring
up a point that I've noticed with the recent Supreme Court decision around affirmative
action.
(04:51):
And it really got me thinking about what that decision and decisions like it that are further
exacerbating disparities that we are seeing with the social determinants of health.
Think about the Dobbs decision and its impact on reproductive rights and how that disproportionately
will impact historically marginalized groups and how this particular recent decision on
(05:14):
affirmative action is going to negatively affect the trend toward culturally competent
care in this country and further impede innovation acceleration within the healthcare industry
and frankly all industries.
And when I was doing some kind of thinking about this, I found a couple of articles I
thought really spoke to this.
One was in Scientific American, there was a great quote here that said, success is not
(05:37):
a finite resource, society does better generation after generation.
I think that is a key point when you're thinking about affirmative action is the generational
build up of capability both in academia and in wealth, et cetera.
When we extend educational opportunities to people who historically haven't gotten them,
white students benefit educationally from diversity, black people live longer when they
(05:59):
have black doctors in study after study, more diversity makes for better work, more innovation
happens, more people make money to support the economy and accomplishments are more meaningful
when we lift others up instead of pulling the ladder up.
And I think that is what we're seeing, that ladder is just being pulled up by an increasingly
conservative court.
I thought this quote from Omar Ateeq, who's a president of American College of Physicians
(06:21):
was rather prescient in Becker's, considering race as one of the many determining factors
used when considering an individual's admission to an education program can be an important
way to combat the harm that systemic racism and discrimination has in the United States.
And I feel like we're taking steps backward instead of toward restorative justice.
(06:42):
And then one other article that I thought was actually really interesting from 2020
was from the Proceedings of National Academy of Sciences in the USA.
This article was titled, the Diversity Innovation Paradox in Science.
And I thought this was incredible.
We talked about raising glasses to P values and these did a really good job of doing a
(07:02):
study comparing what happens when you have more diversity in academia and in business.
And what they found was that more novelty is introduced the more diverse the population
is, population that is creating that novelty.
So it is more innovative, the group is more innovative when the group is more diverse.
(07:25):
However, oftentimes with high statistical correlation, marginalized groups, i.e. not
white men, often have those novelties discounted so they are not adopted at the same rate.
So even when you have diverse groups, you still have work to do.
And here we are having taken a step back from innovation.
(07:48):
Now it's not great that that article happens to show up in a magazine called Penis.
I think it's called PNAS.
I don't know how you pronounce it, but I thought that was interesting.
Let's ask Chat Cheapie T, shall we?
You pronounce that.
So you get where I'm coming from.
This decision will lead to less innovation in all industries and specifically will impact
(08:14):
marginalized groups in healthcare.
Let's connect the dots because I think you are making this very relevant for our listeners.
But with the recent decision to essentially do away with affirmative action, it's going
to have an impact on the makeup of future classes that matriculate into higher educational
institutions and have opportunities to achieve advanced degrees in medicine, for instance,
(08:39):
but in business as well.
And that is going to affect what the makeup of the industry looks like five to 10 years
from now.
And that is going to essentially homogenize, again, certain boardrooms and certain recruitment
efforts in our industry and impact our ability to see the world from a diversity of perspectives
(09:01):
and introduce that novelty into our teams.
Absolutely.
And so I think that that is so relevant.
And I'm really glad that you brought up this heavy topic because I think it's been on everybody's
minds.
And I think this is just another forum to process, OK, like, what's the impact?
How is this relevant?
How does this impact me?
I don't have a child applying for college, but I work in an industry that's fast evolving.
(09:25):
And I want to know how this is going to impact my work and my team's work going forward.
And so I appreciate your bringing up an air quotes heavy topic in a light space.
What's been on my mind recently is a really exciting new segment that we have to introduce
to our listeners called Techpocalypse Now.
Techpocalypse Now?
(09:46):
Tell us what that's about.
We're going to take turns reading to one another futuristic product names and descriptions.
And the other co-host has to guess which products are real and which products are fake news.
Yeah, I'm so excited for this.
I came up with some doozies and I think you're really going to like them.
(10:08):
Yeah, the doing the homework for this segment was was just as fun as the delivery is going
to be.
Why don't we take a quick break and when we come back, we'll start it off with Techpocalypse
Now.
Dun, dun, dun.
Dun, dun, dun.
We crack ourselves up.
(10:32):
Welcome back to Tech it to the limit.
And it's time for Techpocalypse Now.
I love the smell of AI in the morning.
So Elliot, do you want to fool me first or shall I fool you first?
Whichever is clever.
I did create five and unknown number of them are real.
(10:55):
I'm not going to tell you how many.
Two truths and a lie, but we don't know how many truths.
I am feeling the need to budge into the front of the creative line here.
So I'm going to go first.
Let's take turns.
So I will read you two and then you can tell me which one you think is the real product
and which one is the fake product and then we'll swap and you got it.
(11:16):
So I love it.
I love it.
OK.
Say hello to the Ember Wave 2, the extraordinary personal cooling and heating device that will
turn you into the handiest superhero in town.
Picture this with a mere flick of your wrist.
You can summon your desired body temperature like a god, making you the master of your
(11:36):
own thermal destiny.
Whether you're battling, right?
Especially in this season, whether you're battling the blistering heat of summer or
locked in a frigid frosty fight, Ember Wave 2 swoops in to save the day, become the envy
of every social gathering as you casually summon a refreshing Arctic breeze to cool
(11:57):
you down or unleash a tropical blast that will leave everyone around you questioning
their sanity.
This futuristic gizmo isn't just a temperature controller, it's a cosmic masterpiece.
Get ready to embrace your inner Captain Cool or Captain Hot with Ember Wave 2 because being
a hero has never been so easy.
(12:17):
Ember Wave 2.
OK, so that's product one.
I will say that feels very chat GPT like dialogue.
Yeah.
So, Elliot, you know that I'm a chat GPT prompting whiz.
So this is going to be extra, extra challenging for you.
OK, ready for product two?
And listeners, you can play along, you know, like just like do your thing where you're
(12:40):
like, oh, I wonder if that's real or fake.
OK, looking to shed a few extra pounds without breaking a sweat?
Introducing the Nano Slim Weight Loss Patch.
This revolutionary patch harnesses the power of nanotechnology to make weight loss a breeze.
Simply apply the patch to your skin and tiny nanobots get to work, stimulating your metabolism
(13:00):
and curving your appetite.
As these microscopic marvels go to town on your excess fluff, you'll marvel at the slimming
effects.
Plus, the patch comes in funky designs like Slim Cheetah and Mountain Man Plad.
So you can flaunt your fashionable weight loss journey while still divulging your guilty
pleasures because nanobots, duh.
(13:21):
Do you think nanobots is really what Ozempic really is?
And it's not just because of the hash tag of all right.
What do you think?
What's real and what's fake news?
So if I'm understanding correctly, Nano Slim is literally releasing nanobots into your
body to hack away at fat cells.
(13:43):
Is that correct?
You pretty much have like you're giving consent to a bunch of tiny microscopic ninjas going
in there and just blasting away.
As much as I want that to be real and I want that on my body at all times.
I have my own heating clothing and I know that air conditioning clothing exists as well.
(14:08):
So the ability to like dial your mattress kind of setting on it to whatever you want,
I feel is not that far fetched.
I'm going with Ember Waves of Grain is the real product.
Can I get it?
Give some applause for Elliot.
You got it right.
Very good.
Very good.
It's some inspiration from a project that I'm working on currently targeting perimenopausal
(14:33):
women and those are two top concerns for that consumer segment, right?
Which is like hot flashes and weight gain.
And so there's a lot of activity in the digital health tech startup space when it comes to
meeting women's health needs.
Well, Femtech and AgeTech are two extremely important niches that need a lot of focus,
(14:56):
especially Femtech.
And I just love that Femtech.
I mean, it's so jargony.
It just makes me want to puke a little bit in my mouth.
A lot of the startups in Femtech are so focused on breastfeeding and there's so many different
apps and different startups out there all focused on that and be like, hello, women
(15:19):
need other things than that.
Older women care about things beyond just skin appearance, right?
That's why I love Gracie and Frankie on Netflix.
Okay, hit me with the test.
I am so excited.
I got my desert ready, Alec.
All right.
Test number one, Medisense 360, the revolutionary AR companion for doctors.
(15:45):
Keeping an eye out to protect your license.
Medisense 360 is the cutting edge digital health solution designed exclusively for doctors.
Combining advanced computer vision and audio technologies, this app transforms augmented
reality headsets and glasses into an intelligent real-time risk assessment tool.
With Medisense 360, physicians can navigate their clinical environment with confidence
(16:09):
as the app analyzes everything they see and hear, identifying potential malpractice risks
instantly.
It constantly monitors the physician's surroundings, analyzing patient interactions, medical procedures,
and environmental factors to detect any possible risks.
The app delivers practical advice, cautionary prompts, and best practice recommendations
ensuring doctors are equipped with the information they need to mitigate risks effectively.
(16:32):
Embrace the future of healthcare with Medisense 360 and redefine excellence in medical practice.
That sounds like the walking on water of technologies.
So I'm just going to put a pin in that.
I've got my pin in.
Hit me with the next product.
All right.
The next product is Urine DX, urine control.
Introducing Urine DX, empowering smart urinary health.
(16:57):
Urine DX is a revolutionary digital health product designed to provide comprehensive
insights into urinary health.
By integrating a cutting edge sensor system into your toilet, Urine DX transforms the
ordinary into an extraordinary tool for monitoring and managing various urinary conditions.
With advanced data analysis and personalized recommendation, it aims to tackle key challenges
related to obstruction, UTIs, chronic disease, kidney disease, and bladder cancer.
(17:20):
Sensor technology accurately captures and analyzes urine samples, gathering essential
data related to urine composition, flow rates, and other crucial urinary indicators.
Urine DX establishes a streamless connection between patients and their healthcare providers
or clinical teams.
It securely transmits relevant data, ensuring timely updates and collaborative care management.
Urine DX represents a significant leap forward.
(17:42):
Embrace the power of Urine DX and take control of your urinary wellbeing like never before,
or else you're in trouble.
Oh, God.
Yes.
My guess is that Urine DX is the real product.
Again, because one, what's the word, your tell in poker is computer vision.
(18:03):
You're like so jazzed about computer vision right now.
I love computer vision.
It's true.
Yeah.
I'm like, oh, you just showed me.
You did like your tell, right?
I did.
We were playing a game of Texas Hold'em.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And also like just like with FemTech, right?
Men's health is a huge segment in the market that's emerging.
(18:24):
And I happen to be aware of the technology related to excrement analysis.
So why not urine?
No, absolutely.
And there's some really amazing products out there.
I mean, this is one of them.
Aside from the point, men are traditionally really bad at taking care of their own health.
(18:48):
And when they have, especially something that is so private, well, I mean, but they're better
than men at doing it.
I mean, we manage the health care for the household, for the whole family.
Right.
But we typically deprioritize our own needs over those of the family.
100%.
And men could, I mean, we're speaking to straight families here, right?
But men, I don't need to see a doctor.
(19:09):
Right.
Well, they could take a little bit more ownership of at least their own health to take some
of that burden off.
Right.
And when you make it fun, I mean, that's literally their tagline.
I didn't make that up.
You're in control.
Making it fun is like a game of pong in the toilet.
So when somebody comes up with that, I would like to invest.
Okay.
So what did we win, Elliot?
(19:31):
We both got it right.
Tell us what we won.
What is our getaway vacation?
Two hours of free babysitting?
That would be great.
But I think that, so if we both won, we didn't come up with something if we had a tie.
It's a tie.
It's like football, right?
Like I'm talking about football.
Yeah.
I'm talking about football.
I'm talking about football.
I'm talking about football.
I'm talking about football.
I'm talking about football.
I'm talking about football.
I'm talking about football.
I'm talking about football in the European sense, right?
Yes.
Yes.
Like ties are acceptable.
(19:52):
Yeah.
You know, let's channel the inner Ted Lasso and just be cool with that.
Oh my God, Sarah, that was so much fun.
It was really fun.
I felt like I was on a game show.
But I didn't leave with a pile of cash or a new car.
No, just you're a millennial.
You got a participation trophy.
It's not a trophy.
It's a ribbon.
That's great.
That was so much fun doing Tech Pop Clips now.
(20:17):
If you listeners have an idea for a crazy futuristic app that you think should be out
there, please let us know.
Comment on LinkedIn, comment on Twitter, maybe on threads, but comment and let us know what
you come up with.
We'd love to hear them.
So coming up after the break, we have a very special guest.
(20:38):
Sarah, who's going to be joining us?
Dr. Norma Padrone, CEO and founder of Empirica Labs and highly decorated digital healthcare
group.
Really excited about that conversation.
So stick around.
We'll be right back.
(21:00):
Introducing the Emotionally Intelligent Scalpel, the surgical tool that's about to revolutionize
and harmonize an operating room near you.
This futuristic marvel isn't your average scalpel.
It's a blade with as much intuition and empathy as your therapist.
Designed to detect the stress levels of surgeons, this cutting edge instrument adjusts its vibration
(21:22):
intensity according to the nerves of the end user.
The more your hand shakes, the more precise the scalpel becomes, ensuring exact incisions
and fewer dramatic moments.
Say goodbye to those hard pounding edge of your seat surgical scenes after pulling an
all-nighter because your trainee was on holiday, because thanks to the Emotionally Intelligent
Scalpel, it's easy to keep calm and slice on.
(21:45):
Whether it's your first procedure or your thousand, this extraordinary instrument offers
a trusty sidekick, gently guiding your shaky hand through the intricate surgical art.
So have that extra latte, grub in, and let the Emotionally Intelligent Scalpel bring
harmony to your operating room, one incision at a time.
(22:06):
To score a discount on your very own Emotionally Intelligent Scalpel, visit EmpathicOR.com
and enter the promo code TECHLIMIT.
Malpractice insurance sold separately.
(22:26):
Well welcome back to Tech into the Limit and get ready to meet a fierce and fabulous first
gen Latina entrepreneur helping to catapult the healthcare industry into the digital age.
Dr. Norma Padron is the CEO and founder of Empirica Lab, a company that specializes in
peer-to-peer training within healthcare organizations to help them accelerate digital transformation.
(22:49):
Fun fact, Dr. Padron has more advanced degrees than Donald Trump has indictments, current
and pending, including a doctorate in health policy and management from Yale, a master's
in health economics from Duke, and a master's in public health from the Universitat Pompeu
Fabra in Barcelona, Spain.
She is a virtual guru when it comes to digital transformation, having conquered the distant
(23:10):
realms of STEM education and led squadrons through disparate galaxies of health academia,
nonprofits, and the dreaded private sector.
On the daily, Dr. Padron wields dual superpowers of entrepreneurship and data analytics to
revolutionize digital health products, churn out value-based care models, and slay quality
measurement.
(23:31):
Brace yourselves because she is about to give healthcare a much needed digital makeover.
Welcome Norma.
May I call you Norma?
Yes, you can.
Hi Elliot.
Hi Sarah.
Nice to see you.
Great to have you.
So Norma, when we bring our guests on, we like to offer them the opportunity if they
want, but we'd like to offer you the opportunity to share your favorite dad joke.
(23:55):
We love a little pun humor, things that are punny.
What do you have for us?
I think you guys are going to have to take away this one.
I love laughing, not really good at making jokes myself.
So Sarah, what do you got?
Okay, so this one is my kid's favorite joke.
I'm a mother.
I'm two little ones, and they literally tell it to each other on the way to school without
(24:16):
fail every morning.
Why did the banana go to the hospital?
Oh no, it's lying.
Because it wasn't peeling well.
Okay, well there you go.
My kids are going to be so happy because their joke is now on a really super famous podcast.
That's great.
(24:37):
That's such a good joke.
Well, let's get right into it.
Norma, thank you again for joining us.
And given your incredible global background, what inspired you to pursue a career in health
entrepreneurship and what is your purpose that drives you forward?
I like to ask people, how do you want to change the world?
So I really appreciate you saying this.
So thank you so much.
(24:58):
I think I'm very proud of all the accomplishments and education and things that I worked on.
It's always really easy to look back and think of it as very linear.
I don't know that I started thinking that I would end up in entrepreneurship and I don't
know that I started thinking that I would end up working just sort of in the different
roles that I've had.
I was very interested initially in just why was health and healthcare separate things,
(25:26):
so complex.
And I was very interested in human behavior.
I was very interested in why we interact in healthcare.
We say we want to be healthy.
We're not very healthy.
You know, oftentimes we make bad decisions.
I was very interested in just sort of that.
And so what drives me right now, I think, is that over the last 12 years that I've
(25:46):
been working in healthcare, I became really, really interested in adoption, adapting and
adopting to technology.
I thought that the missing link had been always focusing on human behavior.
So I kind of came full circle to where I started, which is we ended up spending the first decade
between 2000 and 2010 investing in a lot of technologies to digitize electronic health
(26:11):
records and processes in healthcare.
We have 99% adoption in healthcare and electronic health records.
And then we spent 2010, 2020 fascinated by these technologies and data and computational
power that now we can do so many things.
And then the missing link continues to be just adoption, right?
(26:31):
And so the human in the loop sort of has gotten lost and that's reflected in how technologies
get experienced within healthcare organizations.
And I've been fortunate enough to, as an economist, just have my office inside hospitals.
So I think that sort of changed my thinking about both my training, but also deep in my
understanding on human behavior and how humans behave inside this organization.
(26:55):
The stakes are really high.
Technology has to be very precise, but also incorporate how actually we work under stress.
And so I'm very interested in the human factor.
So workforce development, workforce training became as a product of all these years, sort
(27:15):
of my main purpose now.
Noamad, thank you so much for talking about where your office wants, because I think that's
a critical component to getting adoption, right?
Because those that are designing and deploying digital health tools need to get their boots
on the ground and get out there and understand the end user experience.
So I think that's a critical piece to successful adoption of digital transformation technologies.
(27:40):
So I'm really glad that you mentioned that you had that experience of your office being
sort of co-located with your end users.
I'm going to kind of pivot to another question and ask you what excites you about this space
right now, because as we all know, there's a lot of activity in the digital health product
space.
It seems like almost too much to be able to really pay attention to.
(28:01):
There's just a lot of noise.
There's a lot of activity.
So could you just share some examples in your experience of emerging products in the digital
health space that you find particularly exciting or promising?
Yeah, I guess in the space that you generally think of like categories, so there's the category
of digitally enabled, right?
So care that is just in-person care, but gets enabled via technology or digitally delivered.
(28:27):
So therapeutics, digital therapeutics, and then there's care enablement.
And obviously, my company, my day-to-day is in the care enablement space.
So these are the tools and technologies that help augment humans on the ground to deliver
care in better ways.
So it does include integration of data.
(28:47):
So I'm very interested and very excited about how, for example, health information exchanges
have done a lot of work in the space in population health that is actually very meaningful, tracking
patient populations, making sure that patients are followed in better ways.
So that's very exciting for me.
But I think in the digital therapeutics space, the sensors are getting ever more exciting.
(29:09):
I think that they pass through the fires a whole decade of trying to validate and standardize
and normalize how we think of that information.
And so I think they're ripe for success.
There are companies in the musculoskeletal space that I'm really, really interested
on.
They're using AI.
It is bring your own device, but the algorithms are sort of really able to see how individuals
(29:34):
perform their physical therapy.
And I think that's really, really exciting.
That's about being just at home and just following up your pre surgery, post surgery, rehab,
and then being tracked, monitored.
So I'm really excited about that.
So sorry, go on.
No, I was going to ask a question about that because I love that space.
Are you referring to, as one of those examples, some computer vision applications for PT at
(29:57):
home?
I've seen a number of different products out there that have been layering that on to ensure
proper movement, automatic measuring of the angle of the movement to see how they're progressing.
So are you seeing all that kind of stuff that you have to go back to the PT regularly for
that costs people money that may not be necessary?
Absolutely.
(30:17):
And what's so interesting about this is sort of like you have the convergence of three
factors.
So on one hand, you get much faster, better computation.
So now we're able to ingest the data, train the algorithms, be so much better in our vision
algorithms.
We also have that in some sensor devices.
So temperature is a very, very interesting vital sign right now for preventing pressure
(30:38):
ulcers, which all prevent amputations.
So if you had this, so computation got really, really good.
We were really, really able to train the algorithms.
And so we came to a point where it doesn't matter what device you're using, the algorithms
are really, really good.
And I'm very interested in that.
It used to be the case that depending on the sensor you had or the device you had, or you
(30:59):
had to purchase this device and so it was a little bit messy to manage all that technology.
But now computation got so good, the algorithms got really good.
Then you were able to democratize the sensors.
Yes.
And I think that that's when you're thinking about population health.
And so you're thinking about an individual that might be in an underserved community
and you're saying like, how are we going to be preventing amputations and certain like
(31:21):
you map it out.
And so in some geographies and have some published research on this, in some geographies, like
you just have like higher rates of amputations.
And that feels really, really unfair.
And so then on top of that to ask, no, but you have to have the latest iPhone or whatever,
the latest iPad feels really unfair.
And so I'm really excited about technologies where just computation got so, so good that
(31:42):
it doesn't matter what device you're using, just sort of we can reach you wherever you
are.
So there's some stuff going on in musculoskeletal that I'm very excited.
There's some stuff in sensors, particularly using temperature as a vital sign that I'm
really excited.
Diabetes is obviously a huge problem in the US.
Amputation is the most expensive one.
Yeah.
And amputation is sort of this point where like quality of life absolutely changes, right?
(32:07):
So opportunities work, change a lot.
And so now you have like maths and, you know, a ton of things, like a variety of products
that I'm not going to go into the names, but what I'm excited about is that now we can
monitor the changes that like really, really like precise changes in temperature that can
actually preempt that pressure ulcer and ultimately prevent that amputation.
(32:29):
And so I'm excited about technologies that are highly specialized in the, I guess, chronic
disease management and prevention, but that use this sort of now bring your own device
thing, but they're so good on the computation and the algorithm design that can prevent
it.
I'm going to ask a devil's advocate question.
So when we talk about bring your own device, I think, and we talk about sensor technology,
(32:51):
that sounds expensive to me.
You know, how, if I'm in an underserved population, how am I going to afford that?
Like, do you have knowledge of the price point of the products that you're talking about?
And is there enough competition where price is starting to turn downward?
There's a lot that is changing really, really rapidly.
And so I will say like, so you can think of, for example, audio as well.
(33:12):
So there are technologies around audio that can help, again, just tailor the algorithm
to understand changes on breathing, for example.
A lot of these technologies came around COVID and this were about just sort of like really
understanding respiratory health using audio data.
There's a lot of audio data to train models.
So a lot of like health insurance companies, customer service, you know, companies, they
(33:36):
ask you if they can record that conversation and that can be helpful in sort of this.
And obviously with proper consent to train this algorithm.
So audio, temperature, and then of course, the sort of remote monitoring or visual sort
of data is sort of really, really interesting to me.
Keeping us moving along, you're wonderful to speak to and so brilliant.
(33:56):
I could go on for hours, I'm sure.
What are some of the strategies that healthcare organizations can adopt to effectively integrate
those products into their existing programs?
So you mentioned about human factors being your focus and being such a critical component.
I'm thinking about governance.
I'm thinking about policy and procedure, et cetera.
(34:18):
You know, what are those things that healthcare organizations should be thinking about implementing
or guardrails, et cetera, that they should have in their system when they're doing that
integration?
So one thing to acknowledge is probably that actually there's a lot going on right in healthcare,
healthcare delivery.
And I think that we just sort of always sort of the default is to say everything sucks,
nothing is working.
(34:39):
We should all change everything to hell with electronic health records.
Wait, are you talking about politics?
No, I'm not.
I'm just like, there's a lot, so healthcare organizations, so you have to understand like
every time you visit the emergency room, you are in touch with some of the highest qualified
individuals with some of the most expensive equipment that there exists.
(35:01):
And in some communities actually, so it's not only that hospitals are just sort of like
the hub of technology, but they have the hold like just in that in their radius within the
hospital, the highest qualified individuals in those communities, like the more degrees,
the more trained, et cetera, and highest cost equipment and things like that.
And so there's a lot that is going right in healthcare in the US.
(35:24):
From there, there's a lot that is not right that is going on.
And a lot of what is not going on right tends to be about a lot of collaboration or data
sharing.
And a lot of it is what happens like what happens outside the walls of the hospital.
And I think that that's where digital health technologies could so complement the health
(35:45):
part of healthcare.
Care would be your nurse taking care of you, your doctor, you get the care that happens
inside the hospital.
That doesn't always result in health outcomes, right?
So we see it in life expectancy.
We see in sort of like how outside of hospitals, like the newborns that are low birth weight,
for example, don't survive as much, et cetera.
(36:06):
So there's a lot of challenges that happen outside.
And that's where I think digitally enabled and digital delivery of care happens to be
very exciting.
It's easier to do it in places where it's very tractable and we know what should happen.
And so I just want to acknowledge that in a lot of care delivery, there's just a lot
of uncertainty.
So when you come through, let's say the emergency department, they don't necessarily know what
(36:30):
is it that you're going to need, right?
So they go through a series of protocols to assess that.
But if we already know what you need.
So we already know that you've just been diagnosed while you were inpatient, you came in for
a heart attack.
But while you were inpatient, we learned that you also have diabetes, right?
And so there's a series of things that should happen after you leave.
(36:50):
And I think that that's where digital health technology gets very exciting.
I think that's a huge opportunity for places of care to connect the dots.
Oftentimes they don't.
And so I think that those are the technologies where it's easier or at least more clear to
do that.
If after discharge, for example, there's the first 30, 60, 90 days after discharge from
(37:12):
stroke are fundamentally going to determine how the rest of your life is going to look
like.
Right.
And so there's so much that we could be doing.
It doesn't need to happen inpatient.
And actually, there's a lot of technologies that could help us ensure that your quality
of life is much better.
And it happens outside.
And I think that there's a lot of health systems really trying to figure it out.
(37:35):
Interestingly, I found that children's hospitals are like, like hogs of technology adoption.
And I was asking a doctor friend of mine recently, like, why is that?
Like, why are so technology forward?
And he said, you have working age parents, fully digital, fully invested in utilization
(37:56):
of these technologies.
And that was beautiful.
And I think it's very clear that that's why we have children's hospitals be so advanced.
But yeah, I mean, I would say I would just sort of like to in that question that you
made earlier, I just acknowledge that there's a lot that is happening that is right.
And then it sort of breaks down and like what happens after you leave.
(38:17):
I love your optimism.
You don't.
Yeah.
Right.
And you made the point.
It is cool to dump on health care.
Right?
Yeah.
Maybe it's not cool.
Maybe it's just like default.
Right.
That's our default.
We're like, let's all complain about it.
Kind of like, you know, the election season.
But it's realistic optimism.
(38:38):
Right.
And I think that that's an important perspective to keep in mind.
I like that you pointed out transitional care management as a real key point of success
in digital health care, where we continue to expand the walls of health care and broaden
the definition of what is transitional versus what is ongoing versus what is inpatient care,
(39:01):
virtual inpatient care, even digital health products are going to play such a big role
in that.
And I think that's a really great point to call out.
I would also like to just emphasize your call out about pediatric patients and their families
as early adopters of digital health technologies.
I've definitely observed that in my work, my day job outside of this podcast.
(39:23):
And I think there's a lot of opportunity sort of as a pediatric or a testing ground for
that population that frequently is an afterthought when we're designing health systems and interventions
or education, what have you.
So a lot of opportunity in that space.
So people want to go after it, in my opinion.
I know we're just past time here.
(39:45):
I really wanted to make sure we got to this question because of your background in entrepreneurship.
Norma, as an entrepreneur, you know that failure is a gift because it affords us the opportunity
to turn mistakes into insights.
Can you give us some recent examples where, in your opinion, health tech has failed to
drive value for providers and nurses and patients?
(40:07):
And what can entrepreneurs and health systems learn from these failures?
That's such a good question.
I recognize that it's very well suited, but I'm an incredibly competitive person.
So I would not say that failure is a gift.
But yeah, so let's assume for this question that it is a gift.
Sure.
She's arguing the premise of the question, Santa.
(40:29):
I like her.
So I don't think that necessarily it's a failure.
I think that there was this assumption, but listen, it was very collective, right?
I think that we were coming from a fee-for-service world.
We're still in it, by the way.
And it was sort of like we had this wake-up call and we said, this is wrong.
(40:51):
We should be paying for health, not only the services.
And why don't we do that?
And then we spent a decade talking about value-based care as if it was a whole panacea and it was
just amazing.
And just because we were marginally going to pay a little bit differently, magical things
would happen.
(41:11):
And I think that a lot of early stage companies fell into that trap.
And so started, I mean, I've heard them many times and I'm sure you both as well say things
like we'll go at risk, right?
We have skin in the game, right?
And not really understanding what the baseline of that population is, not really understanding
(41:34):
what the appropriate clinical pathway looks like or should look like, not really understanding
what the standard of care is.
And not the standard of care as in the realistic one, excuse me, the book one, but like what
is actually happening on the ground.
People couple together resources and things.
And so I think the failure was to force fit technology that was almost unrealistically
(42:02):
aiming for behaviors that were just not happening on the ground.
So you'd hear, I mean, I think that's true and I don't mean to bash like behavioral health
companies, but I think that's true for a lot of sort of behavioral health companies that
came in and said, you know, there's lack of access.
And so then I'm just going to coordinate a lot of physicians, a lot of mental health
providers on this app and or I'm going to get this algorithm or this chat button and
(42:28):
surely this will be better.
And so if you don't understand what should be happening, what the standard of care should
be and then what the standard of care is, you think you might think that this is going
to be improvement.
And I think that there was a lot of like optimism that wasn't really grounded on subject matter,
sort of like expertise, but also knowing the realities on the population health on the
(42:50):
ground.
I think that maybe another failure and it's not a failure for like either the the entrepreneur
side or certainly is one that I'm also at risk of committing is that health care is
very geographic.
And so you might have actually a geography that is working really, really well because
(43:10):
your technology is mapping out IRL in ways that make sense.
And then you go to another region or another state and your technology does not map out.
And it was this sort of like pretentiousness that we could solve it with technology, not
knowing that on the back end, there was going to be a care navigator picking up the phone.
(43:34):
There was going to be a data analyst knowing the triggers for that data.
There's going to be a nurse practitioner like actually making the call to see the patient
was OK.
And so that technology is not mapping out IRL in appropriate ways.
You might be fooled that it worked in New York or California.
And you know what?
It just doesn't work out in Mississippi.
(43:55):
And so I think that there was a lot of, I guess, just optimism that wasn't grounded
on the geographies.
Wow, I mean, it's profoundly simple, but yet we need to be reminded of that.
You know?
OK, two things.
IRL, I know what she means, Elliot.
Thanks to you, I just love this friendship, you know, introducing me to all these wonderful
(44:18):
acronyms and industry jargon.
But also, I think what you're saying, Norma, like I'm just going to just plain language
it because I think you said it in such a beautiful way.
Like, it's worth repeating that we need to understand our customers' needs.
And the only way to do that is to get out of our design rooms and get into their spaces,
(44:39):
whether they're clinicians or patients or communities.
And the companies that are really going to make a difference in designing solutions that
solve real problems are those that have the resources and the gumption to get out there
and see firsthand and really truly understand the problem at its root before designing a
solution for it, right?
(45:00):
Right, right.
Otherwise, you end up building applications, as you mentioned, Norma, that were designed
for a VBC world.
And then you went out and tried to sell it to an FFS world.
And that just doesn't work.
Hey, let's get some more acronyms in that sentence.
I know all the TLAs.
Wonderful.
Well, this has been really fun, Norma, to just connect with you in a different space,
(45:25):
you know, outside of your day job, which is running Empirica Lab.
Check it out, listeners.
If you want to learn more, they have a wonderful website.
And Norma, I'm sure we'd be happy to connect with you offline if you'd like to learn more.
Norma, where can people find you online?
Well, you know, LinkedIn nowadays, the cool kids move to LinkedIn.
I'm sure there's more social media networks going off, but...
(45:47):
I thought she just called us cool kids.
She totally did.
She totally did.
That's where we hang out.
Absolutely.
And LinkedIn, I think, is a good spot, and of course, our website at EmpiricaLab.com.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, both of you.
A pleasure to talk to you.
And scene.
All right.
(46:07):
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Well, welcome back listeners from our break.
(47:56):
We are so excited to have you back and we're really grateful for our amazing sponsors,
like the Emotionally Intelligent Scalpel.
Want to take this opportunity to thank our guest today, Dr. Norma Pedrone of empirical
lab.
Super engaging, brilliant, and fun person to connect with on this pod.
Like we do on every episode, Elliot and I enjoy nuggets, both the chicken and the learning
(48:21):
kind.
So we're going to share our favorite nugget with one another at the end of this pod.
What do we take away from the conversation essentially with Norma?
So I will pass the baton to you, Elliot, to talk about what your favorite nugget were
from our engagement with our guest today.
Absolutely, and just for the record, I find that Burger King is superior than McDonald's
(48:45):
in terms of nuggets.
But the things that I want to actually talk about from-
Hey, we don't plug products unless they are fake health tech products on this show.
I'll go back and bleep it out.
I think there was a couple of really cool things that we talked about in that conversation.
She has really got such a wealth of experience and knowledge in all of these spaces.
(49:06):
So you could probably rewind to any part of it and find something that was really meaningful.
Some things that stood out to me, I love the way that she broke the digital healthcare
industry down into sort of three different kinds of buckets of technologies.
Digital tools for care delivery, tools for therapeutics, specifically calling out sensors
(49:27):
and musculoskeletal use cases for computer vision.
You know how much I love computer vision.
And then care enablement tools, which is her area of focus, which really are more around
those kinds of things that make care easier when the clinicians and folks are providing
your care.
It's not necessarily the delivery care, it's what tools can they use to make their care
(49:49):
easier.
And that could be something like a generative AI that we use to so much joy here on the
pod.
So I think those three were really great ways to kind of bring it down to something easily
tangible.
I also thought her point around the growth of computational power, along with the sophistication
of the algorithms being developed over the last few years, have really led to a democratization
(50:10):
of sensor capability in the field, which does a lot to alleviate the challenges that we
see related to solve issues with the social determinants of health.
We don't need to have the most expensive products out there because we have such great computational
power, because we have such great sophisticated algorithms that the sensors themselves become
(50:34):
less of an issue, less expensive, et cetera.
And then finally, I really liked the conversation we had around optimism.
We talked about it a little bit.
I do believe that it is kind of like on fleek to dump on health care these days.
Okay, learn me.
What is on fleek?
(50:54):
Okay.
Yeah.
So on fleek is no longer on fleek.
That's how elder millennial I am.
It's passe.
It is passe.
It's super passe.
But it means on point, right?
It means on trend.
Okay.
It is trendy.
It is hip, whatever it may be, to kind of dump on health care.
And she rejects that notion.
She really has this great viewpoint on it, and it's a realistic optimism.
(51:20):
And I think that where she sees the most optimism is around using digital health tools for,
like, advancing transitional care, longitudinal care outside of the walls of health care,
which is already doing lots of great stuff inside the health care.
Now, how do we expand that outward?
Now, personally, I'm a pessimist because that way I'm either right or pleasantly surprised.
(51:42):
And both of those are acceptable outcomes to me.
I look at that same market, that same industry, and I worry, given our capitalist society
and the winner-take-all kind of attitude around capital, there's going to be so much competition
in that space.
Who's going to win?
We're going to suffer through a lot of consolidation and bad stuff that is going to get put into
(52:04):
the marketplace.
I worry about the speed with which we actually will be able to use digital tools to solve
these crises before they become too much.
So that's just my pessimism.
But I know that you're an optimist as well.
So I'm kind of curious as to what you thought about her optimism.
You know, I thought I was really refreshing.
And I definitely know next time I get chicken nuggets, I'm going to order you like a big
(52:26):
order.
You have a lot of nuggets this year.
I love how into it, into this conversation you were today, Elliot.
So awesome.
Thank you for sharing all of your insights with our listeners.
I am an optimist, as you say, and I really appreciated Norma's perspective on picking
a look at what is going well in the industry, what are existing resources and capabilities
(52:49):
from a human standpoint and a technology standpoint that we can really leverage.
And then the digital piece complements that, right?
It adds in a lot of capabilities outside of the facility, for instance, that she discussed.
So I really appreciated her just giving credit where it's due to an industry that has a lot
going for it, a lot of compassion and a lot of really mission driven servant leaders in
(53:14):
health care.
The other thing that I took away from it was that, you know, she started her dialogue with
this, which is that adoption and adaptation to new technologies continues to be a primary
barrier to acceleration of digital transformation in the industry.
And I couldn't agree more.
I think that my takeaway, it just reinforces my philosophy and how I approach my work is
(53:39):
we need boots on the ground.
We need to get into the end user experience as much as possible and we need not only clinician
involvement in the design, but we need patience, right?
We didn't talk much about that with Norma today, but I definitely know she would agree
if she's still around the call.
And so I think bringing in both of those perspectives, not just in the design sessions, but getting
(54:01):
out into the communities.
If she talked about how digital technologies don't always transfer from one geolocation
to the other, right?
Getting your boots on the ground doesn't just mean bringing the right stakeholders to the
table.
It means actually leaving your desk, getting off a virtual call and getting out there in
the field and seeing how healthcare is delivered before you start designing, when you're designing,
(54:24):
after you're designing, when you're trying to drive adoption.
All critical at those stages.
So those are my nuggets.
Maybe like also an extra large order.
That was pretty hefty.
That was a pretty hefty set of nuggets there.
I like that.
I do like chicken.
This is not a vegan podcast.
I just want to say thank you to our listeners.
Please check us out on social media on LinkedIn, where the cool kids are, as Norma says, Twitter,
(54:50):
Instagram, or even on Facebook if you still use it.
Not on thread yet, but likely will be shortly.
So please check us out on social.
And speaking of social, be sure to check out our upcoming healthcare haikus that we're
going to be starting to drop everywhere.
These are large language model enabled haikus.
And we would love for you to join us in that discussion with sharing your own LLM inspired
(55:15):
haikus in the comments.
Let us know what you think of ours.
And you know what?
We tend to use chat GPT here, but if you use BARD, if you use something else, by all means,
we don't discriminate.
We bring them all.
We want all those AI voices of our machine overlords to be represented.
AI equity.
Well, this has been a great conversation, great pod.
(55:41):
Thank you, Elliot.
Listeners, thank you for joining us.
Thank you, Dr. Padrone, for being our guest today.
And remember listeners, if you enjoyed what you heard today, it really helps us to optimize
our algorithms on your favorite podcast vendor.
And you would leave us a five star review.
And let's let's harken back to our preschool days.
(56:02):
And just remember the buddy system.
Okay, share.
If you like this pod, share it with one friend and help them cross the street safely in their
digital transformation journey.
Everything I learned about podcasting I learned in kindergarten.
I love it.
Oh yeah.
It sounds like a golden book.
Well, I can't wait to connect with you next time, Elliot, and deliver some awesome health
(56:24):
tech humor to our listeners.
Thanks again.
Thank you and happy birthday.
Happy birthday.
Tech to the Limit is produced by Sarah Harper and Elliot Wilson in consultation with ChatGPT
because they are masochists and also don't have any sponsors.
(56:46):
Yet music was composed by the world famous court minstrel, Evan O'Donovan.
To consume more hilarious and informative content by digital transformation and healthcare,
visit us online at TechItToTheLimit.Fun.
And don't forget to follow us on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and across the event horizon.
See you next time on TechItToTheLimit.
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