June 16, 2025 • 40 mins
Episode introduction
Careers don’t always follow a straight line, and for Jessica Lin, the detours have been the most rewarding part. In this episode of The Tech Trajectory, she joins host Kavita Kerwar to share what she’s learned from leading through change, jumping into unfamiliar industries, and building teams that thrive under pressure. From managing cultural shifts to overcoming imposter syndrome, Jessica offers practical advice on how to embrace uncertainty, back yourself in, and grow as a leader. And yes, there’s a game of Jenga, because leadership is as much about balance and bold moves as it is about strategy.
Guest bio
Jessica Lin is Executive Manager of Retail Technology – Digital Core Experiences at Commonwealth Bank. With leadership roles at AWS, Airbus, Qantas and Linktree, Jessica has led diverse technology teams through rapid growth, transformation, and cross-industry transitions.
Episode summary
In this candid and insightful conversation, Jessica reflects on the mindset that’s helped her embrace career pivots with curiosity rather than fear, and how she’s adapted her leadership style across vastly different environments from nimble startups to global enterprises. She shares how she challenges her team to think bigger and take ownership, what she learned from her most difficult role abroad, and how she’s worked through imposter syndrome. Jessica also breaks down the difference between mentorship and sponsorship, and why both matter in shaping a career. Along the way, she offers real stories, practical advice, and one very relatable Jenga metaphor, reminding us that leadership isn’t about having all the answers, but being open to growth.
Key takeaways
1. Embracing change through curiosity
[02:50] Career shifts can be opportunities, not setbacks.
[03:50] Transferable skills like leadership and adaptability build confidence in new environments.
[05:50] Curiosity and asking questions often lead to support, not resistance.
2. Adapting leadership to context and scale
[07:05] Startups need fast decisions and risk-taking; large organisations require structure and alignment.
[08:55] Clear direction and adaptability add value in any setting.
[09:40] Stretch goals and support help teams step up.
[11:00] Innovation happens when challenge is balanced with care.
3. Navigating setbacks and building resilience
[13:10] Not every role is the right fit—honesty protects wellbeing.
[14:40] Cultural awareness is just as important as technical skill.
[16:00] Letting go of pride can unlock deeper growth.
4. Redefining confidence and communication
[18:10] Imposter syndrome often stems from comparison, especially around communication style.
[19:50] Feedback reframed quietness as a leadership strength.
[20:30] Leadership impact doesn’t require being the loudest voice.
5. Growing through others—mentorship and sponsorship
[24:10] Sponsors push for opportunities behind the scenes.
[27:10] Mentors help shape direction and decisions.
[31:30] Come prepared—clear goals make mentorship more valuable.
Resources
Where to find Jessica Lin
LinkedIn: Jessica Lin
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kavita Kerwar (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the tech trajectory podcast,
where we uncover the human sideof leadership and resilience.
I'm Kavita Karvar, and todaywe're talking about navigating
career shifts, stepping into newindustries and leading through
change. Joining me in the studiotoday is Jessica Lin. Jessica
has built an impressive careerleading technology teams in
(00:21):
aviation, cloud computing andnow banking. She's worked at
some of the biggest names, fromAmazon Web Services to Airbus,
Qantas and now theCommonwealthBank of Australia, where she
leads digital experience forretail banking. Welcome Jessica.
Today, we'll be diving into whatit takes to step into unfamiliar
territory, scaling highperformance teams and building a
(00:44):
leadership style that thrives inchange to add an extra
challenge, we've got a Jenga inthe studio here with us, so what
we might do is do a question andthen play with a Jenga, if
that's okay. Okay. Are you goodat
Jessica Lin (00:57):
Jenga? Not necessarily unfamiliar
territory.
Kavita Kerwar (01:01):
Okay, all right.
So now I think the firstquestion I wanted to ask is a
bit of an icebreaker, and thisis about your dog who has the
most interesting name, potato.
So tell me, if potato could haveany job in the world, what do
you think he'd be the best at?
Jessica Lin (01:20):
Oh, he's such a special dog. He's actually very
introverted dog and verynervous, but he's very loving.
So I think if he were to have ajob, probably will be a good
therapist. Oh, because I thinkhe can be very empathetic to
other people and connected withhis own thought feelings inside.
(01:43):
So I think he will be a goodtherapist.
Kavita Kerwar (01:45):
Oh, good listener, then, good listener,
very calm. Oh, that's so lovely.
All right, ready for some Jenga?
Let's do it. Okay? I will gofirst, and then I will let's
Jessica Lin (01:54):
see. Let's see.
Let's see.
Do you have a strategy? Oh,
Kavita Kerwar (01:58):
man, I wish I did. I really wish I did. Okay,
your turn? Do you want to do youwant to go next? I actually
think Jenga is a perfectmetaphor for leadership, like
you could have strategic move,some calculated risks, and in my
case, definitely like trying toavoid total collapse. I
Jessica Lin (02:21):
don't know if you could tell that I wasn't
listening to you when I was Oh,my God,
Kavita Kerwar (02:27):
you have, you have a great folk face. All
right, so I guess when I wasdescribing your career, it
careers are rarely a straightline, and you've traversed
across various industries.
Reflecting back on your career,what was your biggest learning
curve when you moved acrossindustries?
Jessica Lin (02:51):
So actually, I like to think that I don't
necessarily look at it as achallenge moving across
industry. It's actuallysomething that excites me. I
love learning about newbusinesses, learning about what
the problem they're trying tosolve. So I think ultimately
it's the curiosity that'sdriving me to change industry. I
(03:11):
didn't plan for any of thosechanges. Those opportunity came
up, and I was more like, oh,never done that before. Maybe I
should give it a try. Oh. So Isuppose one way, the way I'm
describing here, is that I'm notgoing in seeing it as a
challenge or obstacle. I'mactually embracing it as an
opportunity to learn and becurious. So that kind of helped
(03:34):
me to frame in a positive waygoing in, I suppose,
Kavita Kerwar (03:37):
Oh, that's fantastic. So what would be your
advice to someone who maybe isuncertain. So how do they go
about going from uncertainty towhat you've just described as
embracing change?
Jessica Lin (03:47):
Yeah, so, so I think one, like, I said positive
mindset. Just change your ownframe of mind first of all, so
you go in positively. And then,typically, if I'm going into a,
let's say we start frominterview, right? I'm going to
interview to a company in theindustry where I never worked
with before. What I do is I tryto focus on my transferable
(04:09):
skills, pitching my transferableskills to hiring manager,
because a lot of skills we havearound, say, leadership or
technology or collaboration, allof those skills are transferable
no matter which industry you gointo, so that gives me the
confidence I can still bringvalue no matter which industry I
(04:30):
go to. And I want to make surethat shows through in my
interview when I speak to thehiring manager. And then once I
join, I think, like I said,keeping that curiosity open so I
will often talk to colleaguesand ask them about what do you
do. How do you do this? Why doyou do that? And 99% of the
time, people are very supportiveand helpful, and they love to
(04:51):
talk about what they do. So theyusually welcome questions. They
actually get excited aboutsomebody being curious about
their role. So it helps me tolearn. That way, by learning
from other colleagues. Oneexample is recently, I just
recently joined the bank, andnever been in any banking
industry before, so I had theopportunity to shadow someone
(05:12):
who runs operations behind thescene. How they support
customers from behind the scene?
How do they what form they use,what system they use, and that
was very they were eye openingday for me. So I actually feel
quite excited by thoseexperiences, learning about new
things. And those people whowere teaching me, in a way, were
also very excited about me beingcurious about them.
Kavita Kerwar (05:38):
Oh, yeah, that's fantastic. I really like, love
your advice around transfocusing on transferable skills,
being curious, being open,regardless of the industry, and
also being just curious aboutother processes and how that
might impact your work. Yeah,that's fantastic advice. Thank
you. I guess, looking back onyour career, you've worked, Oh,
do you want to do some Jessica'spointing at the Jenga. All
(06:00):
right, let's do this. Oh mygosh.
Unknown (06:07):
Oh no, dude, Oh.
Are we allowed to
Kavita Kerwar (06:09):
change pieces?
Can we touch pieces? Can welike, Okay, should we make a
pact, a social contract of,okay, maybe, like, one touch is
allowed. Okay, one touch, okay,so I did a one touch, and now if
I do this, oh my gosh, this ishard. Okay, this one looks a bit
loose. Yes. All right, foreveryone who isn't watching, I'm
just talking to the Jenga tilesas you do. All right, now your
(06:31):
turn. Would you like me to posethe question while you're doing
this, or is this going to leadto you not listening?
Unknown (06:40):
It will challenge my multi tasking.
Kavita Kerwar (06:41):
Oh, okay, all right, all right. So let's see.
Let's see how you go. So you'venow worked across you've got
experience in leading teams instartups when you were at link
tree, and then you've alsoworked in global enterprises
like AWS, and then now you workat CBA. What have you found to
be the biggest difference whenyou're leading at different
levels and size oforganizations. Yeah.
Jessica Lin (07:05):
And I think I'll first say again, I changed those
type of organization in mycareer path again, because I
want to explore I want toexplore something new. So in
that, that's also a bit of adeliberate move, in a way. And
then what I've found verydifferent is in the smaller
organizations, it's they're muchmore nimble, so you need to be
(07:28):
able to adapt quickly, followingthe organizational speed there,
and not be afraid to makedecisions when you don't have
complete information. Just be abit more risk taking, I suppose.
But at the same time, what Ifound is that what those
(07:48):
organizations look for me tobring for them is the structure
and the skill that they arelooking to build their business
towards. So going back to what Isaid earlier, that's the
transferable skill I will bringto them. And on the flip side,
when I work in largeorganization, I found that it's
a lot more there's a lot morefocus around bringing people
(08:10):
along and aligning people on thesame mission, on the same
direction. So you tend to spenda little bit more time to align
people before you execute,versus in a small organization
where you tend to be more risktaking you experiment much
quicker. So I found that I hadto adapt it and interesting. On
the flip side, what I found thatI can bring to the bigger
(08:32):
organization is the ability toadapt. Yeah. So what I was
saying there's always somethingyou can bring, no matter where
you go, I believe everybody hassomething to offer. It's about
finding what's unique about youbased on your experience and
your skills, and you can bringthem to different organizations,
different industries, different
Kavita Kerwar (08:52):
companies. Yeah, that's fantastic. I guess I had
a question now about teams,because working at a startup so
different from working at alarge enterprise, so as a
leader, how do you encourage aculture where your team members,
whether it's a startup orwhether it's a large enterprise,
are empowered to then takeownership of the problem, be
bold, sometimes like like yourefer to it, and then Just build
(09:14):
innovation from that.
Jessica Lin (09:18):
I found, I, I think it's a little bit so I like to
target it two ways. I like tochallenge my team so give them
ambitious goals. So for example,I had a team member previously
who is a support engineer, so hewould respond to support calls,
(09:44):
operational issues and thingslike that, and he wants to. And
then he ultimately moved to arole more in a solution,
architect, architect capacity,and became more business and or
customer facing. And so he wentthrough that journey of
transition, and so he can. To meone day that he said he wanted
to support other supportengineers like him to go through
(10:05):
that career transition, and sohe's mentoring a few people in
that way. And the challenge Iput to him to say, Have you,
have you thought about maybedoing in a way that's
repeatable, so that it can berun as say, a curriculum, a
program, so that it can be youcan take more than just one or
two people that you're mentoringthrough the transition in a more
(10:30):
larger way. So you could berunning eight people through the
program at once, and then doanother cohort and a cohort, so
your impact would be a lotbigger than what you think you
can have right now. Oh, that'sreally good. So I think what I
tend to do is I like tochallenge my team to think
bigger and we can we will soundmore together on what the ideas
(10:52):
might be to help them achievethat bigger goal than what it
originally was. So I think it'sa bit of combination of a
challenge and support.
Kavita Kerwar (11:01):
Yeah, definitely.
I think this is fantastic,because what you're doing is
actually giving them an ideathat sparks some some thought to
help them scale their impact.
And I think it's so important asleaders, when you've got that
vision and you can see it tohelp others also carve a path,
without laying it all out forthem, but just prompting a bit
of that spark of an idea. Ithink that's fantastic. All
(11:22):
right. On that note, shall weplay some more Jenga? Oh, my
God, this is, oh, why do I dothis? Oh, you know, I am really
bad at Jenga. This is very goodfor, like, keeping me humble, I
guess. Oh, my God, anythingloose is this loose? Oh,
Jessica Lin (11:37):
Jesus. So I wonder what happens with the audio when
it does collapse. Oh, I think,
Kavita Kerwar (11:43):
okay. This is my one again. I have touched
something I cannot do now. Oh,no, for it is like, Oh, this is
a crumbling tower. This is acrumbling is it gonna crumble?
No, you have to persist. I willhave to persist through. This is
what happens. You know, this wasnot a good experiment. Oh, no.
(12:07):
Oh, audio team's gonna have toremove this audio. Okay. Oh,
I have, for those who are notwatching, what I've done is
basically taken out the topthree floors, and you know what?
It's fine. It's gonna go down.
Okay, yes, and that is how youthat's how you don't do Jenga.
(12:28):
Everyone. All right, moving onto your turn, Jessica, now that
I've taken out three floors andhopefully made it a bit easier,
maybe it's a shorter
Jessica Lin (12:37):
tower, I will say that you took a educated,
calculated risk only threefloors. Yes, you didn't take out
the whole building.
Kavita Kerwar (12:46):
This is like an example or a metaphor for
problem solving under pressure,in leadership, no pressure. So
coming back to like this, thethree floors that have fallen
down, could you tell us about atime when things didn't go as
planned, and what you may havelearned from it,
Jessica Lin (13:07):
yeah, for sure, if I reflect back on my career, I
felt that the I don't want tocall a mistake, I would say the
hardest time I have had isprobably my time in France at
Airbus, because it was a verybig cultural change, moving from
(13:28):
Australia to France and at thesame time for a senior role
while I don't speak thelanguage,
Kavita Kerwar (13:37):
to have a language barrier, new country
and yeah, and
Jessica Lin (13:41):
a big job, big job, yes. So I was quite under
pressure, and but again, I tookthat decision to make that move,
because I was curious about adifferent culture, different
company, and I wanted achallenge. Maybe this time, I
bit off a bit more than I couldchoose. So that was probably the
biggest challenge of my career,because everything kind of just
(14:03):
all was hard, and I was there bymyself. I think if I was there
with family, or if I was in amore, less high pressure role,
if one thing, one factor, wasnot there, maybe it would have
gone better. So ultimately, atthe end, I decided to move back
to Australia after a year. And Ithink my learning there is one
(14:28):
on reflection. I don't think Iprepared well enough before I
went there. I feel like I was soovertaken by the excitement of
the new adventure. I can't Ididn't spend enough time and
effort on looking intounderstanding the culture,
understanding the people and theorganization. I think I could
have done better there, forsure, in terms of preparation,
(14:51):
and then the other learning isthat it's okay to admit that it
didn't work out, and it's okayto change. Change after you
admit to yourself that it's notworking out, rather than
continue persisting on somethingthat's not working out and but
impacting your mental health orimpacting your own career
(15:13):
because of that. So at thatpoint, I did have to I'm a quite
a proud person, and I think alot of people would be and you
self criticize a lot, and atthat time, I had to tell myself,
it's okay to for something tonot work out, and it's okay to
start over. So that was alearning, more of a mental
learning, I suppose, in thatsense.
Kavita Kerwar (15:33):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. That's
That's exactly right. I thinkknowing when to stop and knowing
when something is perhaps not inyour best interest and is not
sustainable, is a very importantskill, like it's often spoken
about, like, leadership is notjust about strategy and
execution, but it's also aboutresilience. What strategies do
you employ today to just managethe stress? Because you do have,
(15:56):
and you have had very highperforming roles and very senior
leadership roles. Whatstrategies do you use?
Jessica Lin (16:07):
How to persist? I I can think of multiple things. I
think, going back to again, whatI said earlier, be excited about
what I'm doing is what makes meresilient, if I'm if I'm have
faith or have commitment to whatI'm doing in the organization, I
(16:29):
will be much more resilient, andI want to push through so
finding something that gives youthat sense of mission, yep, I
say it's the first thing. Not beafraid to ask for help. I think
that's another lesson I'velearned in my journey in France
as well. Because at the end,when I share with my team, am I
(16:51):
my leader that I have to leavebecause it's not working out, a
lot of support actually came outafter that. So I wish at that
time, I would have asked forhelp earlier, and I think that
may have made helped me a bit bea bit more resilient as well.
Kavita Kerwar (17:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you for sharing that. Allright, in the in spirit of
resilience, I'm going to aim todo another Jenga. And who knows,
there might be, like, more morefloors of this tower crumbling
down. Oh my gosh. Okay, forthose who are not following us,
Jessica, this is probably veryentertaining for you, like
Unknown (17:30):
you are taking a bigger risk
Kavita Kerwar (17:31):
this time. Oh, my God, okay. Should I just should
I? Should I leave this one?
Should I just abandon that oneand go for another one? Maybe we
need to do Jenga classes. Ah,yes, come to Jenga strategy.
Jenga strategy for leadership.
Yes, here we go, talking aboutresilience and all of that. One
(17:53):
of the things that comes upoften is imposter syndrome, and
many leaders who are even at thetop of their game experience
that, have you ever had thisexperience, and what tactics do
you use to kind of beat theimposter syndrome?
Jessica Lin (18:11):
I think everybody probably have a different sense
of where they are weak. And forme, the particular area that
makes me have that impostorsyndrome is language. As you
probably can tell, I'm notoriginally from Australia. I'm
not a native English speaker, soI would say English being my
(18:32):
second language is probably whatwould hold me back most of the
time. Would make me have thatimpostor syndrome. Because if I
look around people who arenative English speakers, so
eloquent, articulate, which Idon't feel I am a lot of the
time. So that will be my myAchilles heel, and my boy, the
(18:55):
source of my imposter syndrome.
I think over the years, it doestake time. I think I have to
say, over the year, I did grow abit more confident than I was
when I was earlier in my career.
And I think came to two things.
One is obviously, throughpractice, the more you practice
on something, the more you buildon something you don't feel
confident about, the better youwill be. That's That's quite
(19:17):
obvious. The second thing Iwould say is, actually I have a
funeral moment where somebodygave me a feedback, and that
person actually told me that youdon't speak a lot, and because
I'm naturally a quiet andintroverted person, plus the
language barriers, I don't speaka lot usually, but that person
(19:39):
told me that I don't speak alot, but when you do speak,
everybody listens, and that gaveme the feedback that I should be
more confident about what I wantto express and deliver, and
also, at the same time that,going back to what I say
earlier, capitalize on whatmakes you unique. And what makes
you stand apart from everybodyelse. So my superpower may not
(20:02):
be be being very flamboyant orvery outspoken by my superpower
is being very measured andconsiderate when I do speak and
when that so when I speak, itcarries a lot more weight. So
what I lean on now these days isto be thoughtful for when I
(20:25):
speak, but when I do and not benot be afraid of speaking up.
Kavita Kerwar (20:31):
Oh, that's, that's very good advice. I have
a similar I share this concernwith you, because I moved here
when I was and I grew up inIndia, and I always had this
Achilles heel. I love talking,though, so that's another
problem. But my Achilles heelwas that people don't understand
my accent. And a lot of peoplethat I worked with when, when I
was starting off in my career inAustralia, I thought, oh, people
(20:53):
are not understanding what I'msaying. And I would always joke
that there is a Venn diagrambetween the Australian accent
and the in in the Indian accent,and the intersection is really
very tiny sliver that used to bemy constant joke. And people
like more recently have beenlike, Why do you say this joke?
We understand what you'resaying. I'm like, Okay, fine,
then I can't use that to getaway with it, which was another
(21:15):
thing when I was on this podcastas well, because I feel like
this is much more vulnerable.
Because I'm like, oh, willpeople actually understand what
I'm saying? And maybe more oftenthan not, we hold those
limitations in our minds muchmore than what other people may
think of us like. I've alwaysthought of you as a very
articulate leader, likeextremely articulate and very
concise. Yeah, yeah,
Jessica Lin (21:37):
yeah. So I love what you mentioned about the
Venn diagram, to give it alittle bit humorous spin, make
it softer, because sometimes Iwould also tell people that are
I made a mistake there. It'sbecause the English is my first
language, so I have to beexcused casual, yes, and it
helps ease my discomfort, yes.
Same time I'm also soft in themood with other people. Yeah,
Kavita Kerwar (22:02):
definitely. And it makes because you put
yourself in a vulnerableposition, it makes people show
empathy for you, which goes toyour first point that you were
saying. If you call out for helpor say you're not having the
best time, people are often morewilling to help out than what we
think. Yeah, yeah. That's nowit's your turn for Jenga, let's
see if your leadershipstrategies, oh, now the floors
(22:24):
of Jenga have all shifted. Let'ssee if your leadership strategy
for Jenga like shifts. Allright. Drop a floor. Jessica,
drop it. Take a risk.
Jessica Lin (22:36):
Okay, that's my one try. Oh, yes.
Kavita Kerwar (22:40):
Gosh, this is a bit unfair. I feel like this
Jenga block is cursed. I feellike this workplace. If this was
a workplace, this Jenga is atoxic workplace that does not
want me to participate. Okay, soI guess if you could go, and I
think you've kind of given us afew breadcrumbs and a few
nuggets about this anyways. Butif you could go back in time and
(23:03):
give some advice to your youngerself, you know, who's just
starting off in theirprofessional career, what would
your advice be today?
Jessica Lin (23:11):
What you bring to the table is, is, I don't want
to say enough, but what youbring to the table is very
valuable to the people aroundyou, so don't, don't hold back.
Don't underestimate yourself.
Kavita Kerwar (23:28):
Yeah, that's fantastic. That's fantastic
advice. Yeah. And
Jessica Lin (23:32):
I think often time these days, I am bit more risk
taking than I used to be, andthe time, the way I think about
it is, what's the worst thingthat could happen? What's the
worst thing that could happen?
Maybe somebody doesn't agreewith my idea, and we have to
pause on a particularinitiative. But is that the end
of the world? No, it's not theend of World for my career. No.
(23:53):
So why not just give it a try.
If you don't try, you neverknow. Oh,
Kavita Kerwar (24:00):
that's That's so good. It's like you you miss all
the shots that you don't take,or you miss 100% of the shots
that you don't take. Yeah, it'sreally good. So shifting on to
your early stages of yourcareer, did you ever have
mentors or sponsors who kind ofsupported and supported you in
your
Jessica Lin (24:21):
career? Both I can think of two examples. I
remember when I first moved froman individual contributor role
to a management role, my managerat the time, he would give me
advice not to take the firstopportunity to jump into a lab.
(24:45):
So at the time, there were otherhiring managers approaching him
potential roles for me to totake on. And he would advocate
for me. Sometimes he would saythat role is not, yeah. Are
significant enough, she can do alot better. You have to come
back with a better, bigger rolefor her. Oh, wow. So in a way,
(25:07):
he's kind of making sure that Itake a pathway that's most
beneficial to me, and he'sadvocating for me. So I was
really grateful for that. Sobecause of that, I passed on the
first couple of opportunitiesthat came up and landed one that
did accelerate my career. So Iwas really grateful for that,
(25:28):
and I saw that as a sponsorshipfrom him. And then later on in
my career, I remember anothermentor that I spoke to when I
was trying to make a careerdecision, and in that decision
again, I wasn't sure whether Ishould take up an opportunity or
not, and his advice to me, Istill remember today, is that
(25:51):
you want to evaluate youropportunity, not on its own, not
just on what it is, but you wantto evaluate on what It can lead
you to after. So think longerterm. So if a role looks great
today for what it is, but it'snot necessarily leading to
anything else after, then it'sprobably not the best choice
(26:14):
longer term. So for the samereason, I also declined another
role, because it's quite similarto what I was already doing, and
even though it paid a little bitbetter, it's a different
industry, but everything else isquite similar. So I found that,
based on that advice, I feellike it wasn't really growing
me, so it declined opportunityand took something else later on
(26:38):
instead. Oh
Kavita Kerwar (26:39):
yeah, that's fantastic, because this ties
into the earlier theme you weretalking about. Know your worth,
know what you bring to thetable, and then evaluate every
opportunity. And the advice,don't take the first opportunity
that lands on your lap. That'sgreat. That's great advice. So
now see, you've moved from anindividual contributor role to
manager, overseeing teams, andyou spoke a bit about your
(27:00):
leadership style and how youspark these ideas to help people
scale impact. Was there aninstance that shaped how you
manage teams or manage people?
Jessica Lin (27:11):
Was there a pivotal moment? I'm not sure. I think
it's learning through time, butI do remember quite vividly when
I first took on a managementrole, I I was really nervous
inside, internally, like, Idon't know what I'm doing.
(27:31):
People don't know that. I don'tknow what I'm doing.
Kavita Kerwar (27:34):
So you were afraid of being found out, yes,
and like an imposter, yeah,
Jessica Lin (27:39):
yeah. And because it was taking on a new role and
and what really helped me gotthrough that particular imposter
syndrome at the time is my team,the first team that I led,
somebody actually came to me andtold me I was one. They're the
best manager they've had. So itwas a confident, confidence
(28:02):
boost for me, and that kind ofhelped me to be more confident
in myself, but in terms of how Imature my skill in leading
teams, it it did take time, andespecially in leadership roles,
you don't always see your thefruit of your labor right away.
(28:23):
It's not like you go into youryour ID and build up application
and you can see it up andrunning straight away. It's not
an instant hit sugar hit likethat. Leadership roles, it takes
a lot longer to see the resultsin the people you've grown, or
the business initiative you'rebuilding. So it took time for me
(28:46):
to see my impact on people andon the business, and that helped
me grow my confidence over time.
Kavita Kerwar (28:54):
Oh, and you must have also been really patient,
because you you have to alsokind of like, put the adrenaline
aside and be patient that nowyou've just planted these seeds,
and then you'll see how thingsprogress. Yeah, oh, I wish I had
this patience. But however, Ihave pulled out a Jenga tile,
and now it is back over to you.
For once, it has come outsmoothly, without any
disruption, quietly, achievethat. Yes, thank you. I feel so
(29:16):
validated. Jessica,so you mentioned that your
initial leader turned into yoursponsor. So do you see
mentorship and sponsorship astwo different things,
Jessica Lin (29:42):
yeah, so sort of and sometimes I see myself play
both roles at different times, Ilook at sponsor as someone who
advocate for sponsors, yeah,
Kavita Kerwar (29:58):
for the person.
There's. Potential in Yeah.
Sponsor, yeah, let's go withsponsor,
Jessica Lin (30:03):
yeah. You advocate for them. Yes. You shout on the
rooftop for how good they areand what they can do, and you
recognize and acknowledge theirachievement in a public way. For
me, that's what sponsorship is.
And you give them the challengeto take on. For me, so a
mentorship is for me, more ofsomeone who can be my sounding
(30:25):
board. That person may not bedirectly working with me day to
day, or have direct impact onwhat I do or my outcomes, but
that's a person where I canbounce ideas with I have this
challenge. Should I do X or Y orwhat do you suggest? How I go
(30:46):
about it? That's how I seementorship. And I see myself
play different both roles atdifferent times, like I said,
depending on what the
Kavita Kerwar (30:56):
person needs.
Yeah. So both roles are equallyimportant. I agree. I've heard
this definition used in thepast, that your sponsor should
be the person who's talkingabout you in rooms that you
don't have access to. And Ithink that that's a very
powerful way, especially if youfeel that maybe you need that
additional sphere of influence,like we all do, to have an
advocate for us. Yeah, that'samazing. So do you have any
(31:18):
recommendations on how someonecould go about finding a mentor?
Is there something that you'vetried when you've sought out a
mentor, or when you have amentee who seeks you out?
Jessica Lin (31:32):
Yeah, usually when I personally, when I try to find
a mentor, or when I do find amentor, I tend to go to people
who I respect, who I feel is myrole model, and that's how I
approached a person who gave methe career advice, because I saw
that person being successful andmore experienced, and I look up
(31:54):
to the way that they carrythemselves and do their work. So
I approached them directly tosay, hi, hey, I have this
particular decision I want tomake, it. Can you help me out?
And then we continue on thatrelationship after the initial
question or consultation, if youwill. So that's what I usually i
And when my team ask me, who canthey have the can have mentor?
(32:19):
Who can be the mentors for them,I suggest them to think about
who do they look up to? Oh, dayto day, because you're more
likely to be open to input fromsomebody you do look up to and
respect. And I think the otherimportant part is to put in some
(32:41):
homework in your mentorshiprelationship. It's not, it's not
the good use of time for eitherthe mentor and a mentee, if you
just show up with, I don't knowwhat.
Kavita Kerwar (32:54):
So what would be?
What's your preference, if youhave a mentee, do you want them
to come with a list of thingsthat they're hoping to achieve,
Jessica Lin (33:02):
either hoping to achieve, or some problem that
they're trying to solve, or somequestion they're pondering
themselves internally, that wecan have a brainstorm about,
rather than just quite an opensky conversation. I think part
of that is having the focus sosometimes, oh, I have to say,
(33:23):
most of the time, when peoplecome to me for mentorship, they
usually come with a outcomethereafter or a question they
already have in mind. So usuallyI do see people quite prepared,
and they put in a homework forthat. Yeah,
Kavita Kerwar (33:38):
absolutely. I think if you're asking for
someone's time, then you owe itto the person that you're making
the best use of their time, andyou're getting, as a mentee what
you want out of it as well. I'vehad some mentees in the past who
haven't done this, sounfortunately, we've had a
session, and they've just comein with, like, a whole bunch of
problems, which I understand,and it also, then doesn't help
(34:01):
them, because someone like me,I'm an extrovert, so I'll just
speak off the cuff, and, youknow, reflecting back then, I'll
realize, oh, I would have, itwould have been good if I gave
them these references or theseresources or something like that
to go back and refer to, butbecause I didn't know what we
were talking about, even I wasjust talking about whatever was
front of mind for me at thatpoint in time. So I think it's
(34:21):
very important, and it's greatthat your mentees do that. Do
you have a mentor today? Do you
Jessica Lin (34:28):
I still talk to the same person? Okay, funny enough,
yeah, that'sbeen a relationship that's been
sustaining. Well, that's veryrare. Yeah, that's amazing. Yes,
I don't have a lot of mentors,yes, but I have one too, that's
been quite a long time. Yeah,
Kavita Kerwar (34:47):
cool. I think you also spoke about like being
curious and growing in all theroles that you've been across.
What are your currently what doyou find that helps you grow and
learn in. Your you know, day today, work. Do you listen to
podcasts or any books you'd liketo
Jessica Lin (35:03):
recommend? Yeah, so, I mean,
Kavita Kerwar (35:07):
of course, tech trajectory podcast, yes, we just
had to say it was right. Therethey
Jessica Lin (35:15):
are. Actually, there is a podcast I've been
listening to for years, and it'sstill my go to when I go on road
trips or just put on episode onand listen to it's called how I
built this. How
Kavita Kerwar (35:29):
I built this. I don't know if
Jessica Lin (35:30):
you heard of it. I have Yes, yes. So it's podcast
where entrepreneurs or businessowners who come to tell about
the story of how they builttheir business from the ground
up, and it cuts through allkinds of different industry,
product brands, some of thebrands will be very familiar to
(35:50):
everyone, and includingtechnology brands and or even
physical product brands. So Ifound those stories very
interesting and inspiring,because you hear all kinds of
problems. They have to facedifferent challenges, they have
to solve, and some of them, thebrands that you know about, you
will feel very intimatelyconnected and you curious about
(36:11):
them and and also, myinteresting observation is for
technology brands, the episodes,usually in the scale of, say,
all five, five years, three tofive years each, for that
business to scale, for physicalproduct brands, the story is
usually about a decade slower.
But in a way, you kind of feelgrateful that we're in an
(36:36):
industry that does move fast,but you also have the
appreciation for companies andindustry where they are tied to
physical product, they'reconstrained by the physical
velocity of things. One exampleof that is Dyson as a product.
So their founder story was veryinteresting for me, and that
carried across,
Kavita Kerwar (36:57):
yeah, but what an iconic product. This is not a
plug for Dyson, but what aniconic front. Yeah, they're
fantastic.
Jessica Lin (37:04):
Yeah. So, so I listened to those podcasts as a
way of learning about how to howother people deal with
challenges, and oftentimeschallenges and you never face or
even thought of before. Yeah,
Kavita Kerwar (37:17):
yeah. That's a great yeah. It's a great
recommendation. What about intech? Because most leaders now
like technology, landscape ischanging so fast. Is there any
newsletters, anything you readto keep up with what's
happening?
Jessica Lin (37:33):
I think these days I probably, like everybody else,
trying to learn a little bitmore on AI and Gen AI. So I'm
going through a course on Gen AIcertification right now, and by
going through an online coursemyself, I'm sure most people
probably know there's Coursera,there's other forms, other
(37:55):
online learning forms, that'svery readily accessible and
available now. So I still dothat from time to time. Probably
would have liked to spend a bitmore time on that, but as much
as I can, yeah,
Kavita Kerwar (38:07):
that makes total sense. I think I've heard so
much apprehension from peoplewho've already been in tech, or
have been around and who maybehaven't necessarily worked in AI
and then to learn about it. Andit's been so rapid, it's gone
from just being something thatwas in everyone's peripheral
vision to being like, front andcenter in every conversation,
(38:27):
almost every news article,whether it's about the stock
market or New Video or like,whether it's about like, day to
day use so it's very front ofmind. And I think it's great to
know that even you, as a leadertoday, you were like, you know,
be curious and do learning andbe open to that. I think that
your initial advice stillapplies. That's fantastic. Thank
you. All right, should we dosome Jenga? Oh, I feel like I'm
(38:50):
going to knock this tower downjust for everyone on the call
this. These are some experimentswhich are failed experiments.
What has happened is the wholetower has shifted, so there's
been a pivot in the direction ofthis tower, and now I have to,
like, figure out a strategy. Butyou know, it's okay, we've never
had a tower fall on the pot. Oh,is that right? Yeah, that's
(39:13):
right. Maybe today. Maybe today.
Yeah, you pione, yeah,absolutely. That's what I'm
doing. Oh, my God, maybe Ishould do okay, you know what?
Oh, god, okay. Should I do thisone? Oh, no, okay, that's my
one. You're shifting it back. Imight. I did shift it back.
(39:33):
Maybe I made it stable. Maybe myexperiment is no, oh, oh
Jessica Lin (39:39):
no. Oh, okay. All right, fantastic.
Kavita Kerwar (39:47):
Did that come through on your headphones? This
is a big impact experiment. Allright, I think on that note,
this has been a fantasticconversation. I've. Actually run
through all of the questions Ihad, and you were so succinct in
your article, so concise. And Ican't believe you started this
off by saying that that was athing you were a bit
(40:09):
apprehensive about early on.
Thank you so much for your time,Jessica. I think I've learned so
much about you that I didn'tknow, and I now that I think
back to it. I think I workedwith you for the first time in
your team, and this is probablya decade back, so it was like 10
years ago, and this is, this isa whole different side to you. I
think I learned a lot more ofJessica the person, not just
Jessica the technology leader.
(40:33):
So thank you so much, and it'sbeen fantastic working with you.
I think we've also interactedwith the DiUS teams who worked
in your squad, in your currentrole at Commonwealth Bank, but
thank you so much for your time.
This has been great. If you'veenjoyed today's episode, please
subscribe to the tech trajectorypodcast, and we'll be back for
more conversations with thehumans leading technology. Thank
(40:54):
you. You.
Hello and welcome to the tech trajectory podcast,
where we uncover the human sideof leadership and resilience.
I'm Kavita Karvar, and todaywe're talking about navigating
career shifts, stepping into newindustries and leading through
change. Joining me in the studiotoday is Jessica Lin. Jessica
has built an impressive careerleading technology teams in
(00:21):
aviation, cloud computing andnow banking. She's worked at
some of the biggest names, fromAmazon Web Services to Airbus,
Qantas and now theCommonwealthBank of Australia, where she
leads digital experience forretail banking. Welcome Jessica.
Today, we'll be diving into whatit takes to step into unfamiliar
territory, scaling highperformance teams and building a
(00:44):
leadership style that thrives inchange to add an extra
challenge, we've got a Jenga inthe studio here with us, so what
we might do is do a question andthen play with a Jenga, if
that's okay. Okay. Are you goodat
Jessica Lin (00:57):
Jenga? Not necessarily unfamiliar
territory.
Kavita Kerwar (01:01):
Okay, all right.
So now I think the firstquestion I wanted to ask is a
bit of an icebreaker, and thisis about your dog who has the
most interesting name, potato.
So tell me, if potato could haveany job in the world, what do
you think he'd be the best at?
Jessica Lin (01:20):
Oh, he's such a special dog. He's actually very
introverted dog and verynervous, but he's very loving.
So I think if he were to have ajob, probably will be a good
therapist. Oh, because I thinkhe can be very empathetic to
other people and connected withhis own thought feelings inside.
(01:43):
So I think he will be a goodtherapist.
Kavita Kerwar (01:45):
Oh, good listener, then, good listener,
very calm. Oh, that's so lovely.
All right, ready for some Jenga?
Let's do it. Okay? I will gofirst, and then I will let's
Jessica Lin (01:54):
see. Let's see.
Let's see.
Do you have a strategy? Oh,
Kavita Kerwar (01:58):
man, I wish I did. I really wish I did. Okay,
your turn? Do you want to do youwant to go next? I actually
think Jenga is a perfectmetaphor for leadership, like
you could have strategic move,some calculated risks, and in my
case, definitely like trying toavoid total collapse. I
Jessica Lin (02:21):
don't know if you could tell that I wasn't
listening to you when I was Oh,my God,
Kavita Kerwar (02:27):
you have, you have a great folk face. All
right, so I guess when I wasdescribing your career, it
careers are rarely a straightline, and you've traversed
across various industries.
Reflecting back on your career,what was your biggest learning
curve when you moved acrossindustries?
Jessica Lin (02:51):
So actually, I like to think that I don't
necessarily look at it as achallenge moving across
industry. It's actuallysomething that excites me. I
love learning about newbusinesses, learning about what
the problem they're trying tosolve. So I think ultimately
it's the curiosity that'sdriving me to change industry. I
(03:11):
didn't plan for any of thosechanges. Those opportunity came
up, and I was more like, oh,never done that before. Maybe I
should give it a try. Oh. So Isuppose one way, the way I'm
describing here, is that I'm notgoing in seeing it as a
challenge or obstacle. I'mactually embracing it as an
opportunity to learn and becurious. So that kind of helped
(03:34):
me to frame in a positive waygoing in, I suppose,
Kavita Kerwar (03:37):
Oh, that's fantastic. So what would be your
advice to someone who maybe isuncertain. So how do they go
about going from uncertainty towhat you've just described as
embracing change?
Jessica Lin (03:47):
Yeah, so, so I think one, like, I said positive
mindset. Just change your ownframe of mind first of all, so
you go in positively. And then,typically, if I'm going into a,
let's say we start frominterview, right? I'm going to
interview to a company in theindustry where I never worked
with before. What I do is I tryto focus on my transferable
(04:09):
skills, pitching my transferableskills to hiring manager,
because a lot of skills we havearound, say, leadership or
technology or collaboration, allof those skills are transferable
no matter which industry you gointo, so that gives me the
confidence I can still bringvalue no matter which industry I
(04:30):
go to. And I want to make surethat shows through in my
interview when I speak to thehiring manager. And then once I
join, I think, like I said,keeping that curiosity open so I
will often talk to colleaguesand ask them about what do you
do. How do you do this? Why doyou do that? And 99% of the
time, people are very supportiveand helpful, and they love to
(04:51):
talk about what they do. So theyusually welcome questions. They
actually get excited aboutsomebody being curious about
their role. So it helps me tolearn. That way, by learning
from other colleagues. Oneexample is recently, I just
recently joined the bank, andnever been in any banking
industry before, so I had theopportunity to shadow someone
(05:12):
who runs operations behind thescene. How they support
customers from behind the scene?
How do they what form they use,what system they use, and that
was very they were eye openingday for me. So I actually feel
quite excited by thoseexperiences, learning about new
things. And those people whowere teaching me, in a way, were
also very excited about me beingcurious about them.
Kavita Kerwar (05:38):
Oh, yeah, that's fantastic. I really like, love
your advice around transfocusing on transferable skills,
being curious, being open,regardless of the industry, and
also being just curious aboutother processes and how that
might impact your work. Yeah,that's fantastic advice. Thank
you. I guess, looking back onyour career, you've worked, Oh,
do you want to do some Jessica'spointing at the Jenga. All
(06:00):
right, let's do this. Oh mygosh.
Unknown (06:07):
Oh no, dude, Oh.
Are we allowed to
Kavita Kerwar (06:09):
change pieces?
Can we touch pieces? Can welike, Okay, should we make a
pact, a social contract of,okay, maybe, like, one touch is
allowed. Okay, one touch, okay,so I did a one touch, and now if
I do this, oh my gosh, this ishard. Okay, this one looks a bit
loose. Yes. All right, foreveryone who isn't watching, I'm
just talking to the Jenga tilesas you do. All right, now your
(06:31):
turn. Would you like me to posethe question while you're doing
this, or is this going to leadto you not listening?
Unknown (06:40):
It will challenge my multi tasking.
Kavita Kerwar (06:41):
Oh, okay, all right, all right. So let's see.
Let's see how you go. So you'venow worked across you've got
experience in leading teams instartups when you were at link
tree, and then you've alsoworked in global enterprises
like AWS, and then now you workat CBA. What have you found to
be the biggest difference whenyou're leading at different
levels and size oforganizations. Yeah.
Jessica Lin (07:05):
And I think I'll first say again, I changed those
type of organization in mycareer path again, because I
want to explore I want toexplore something new. So in
that, that's also a bit of adeliberate move, in a way. And
then what I've found verydifferent is in the smaller
organizations, it's they're muchmore nimble, so you need to be
(07:28):
able to adapt quickly, followingthe organizational speed there,
and not be afraid to makedecisions when you don't have
complete information. Just be abit more risk taking, I suppose.
But at the same time, what Ifound is that what those
(07:48):
organizations look for me tobring for them is the structure
and the skill that they arelooking to build their business
towards. So going back to what Isaid earlier, that's the
transferable skill I will bringto them. And on the flip side,
when I work in largeorganization, I found that it's
a lot more there's a lot morefocus around bringing people
(08:10):
along and aligning people on thesame mission, on the same
direction. So you tend to spenda little bit more time to align
people before you execute,versus in a small organization
where you tend to be more risktaking you experiment much
quicker. So I found that I hadto adapt it and interesting. On
the flip side, what I found thatI can bring to the bigger
(08:32):
organization is the ability toadapt. Yeah. So what I was
saying there's always somethingyou can bring, no matter where
you go, I believe everybody hassomething to offer. It's about
finding what's unique about youbased on your experience and
your skills, and you can bringthem to different organizations,
different industries, different
Kavita Kerwar (08:52):
companies. Yeah, that's fantastic. I guess I had
a question now about teams,because working at a startup so
different from working at alarge enterprise, so as a
leader, how do you encourage aculture where your team members,
whether it's a startup orwhether it's a large enterprise,
are empowered to then takeownership of the problem, be
bold, sometimes like like yourefer to it, and then Just build
(09:14):
innovation from that.
Jessica Lin (09:18):
I found, I, I think it's a little bit so I like to
target it two ways. I like tochallenge my team so give them
ambitious goals. So for example,I had a team member previously
who is a support engineer, so hewould respond to support calls,
(09:44):
operational issues and thingslike that, and he wants to. And
then he ultimately moved to arole more in a solution,
architect, architect capacity,and became more business and or
customer facing. And so he wentthrough that journey of
transition, and so he can. To meone day that he said he wanted
to support other supportengineers like him to go through
(10:05):
that career transition, and sohe's mentoring a few people in
that way. And the challenge Iput to him to say, Have you,
have you thought about maybedoing in a way that's
repeatable, so that it can berun as say, a curriculum, a
program, so that it can be youcan take more than just one or
two people that you're mentoringthrough the transition in a more
(10:30):
larger way. So you could berunning eight people through the
program at once, and then doanother cohort and a cohort, so
your impact would be a lotbigger than what you think you
can have right now. Oh, that'sreally good. So I think what I
tend to do is I like tochallenge my team to think
bigger and we can we will soundmore together on what the ideas
(10:52):
might be to help them achievethat bigger goal than what it
originally was. So I think it'sa bit of combination of a
challenge and support.
Kavita Kerwar (11:01):
Yeah, definitely.
I think this is fantastic,because what you're doing is
actually giving them an ideathat sparks some some thought to
help them scale their impact.
And I think it's so important asleaders, when you've got that
vision and you can see it tohelp others also carve a path,
without laying it all out forthem, but just prompting a bit
of that spark of an idea. Ithink that's fantastic. All
(11:22):
right. On that note, shall weplay some more Jenga? Oh, my
God, this is, oh, why do I dothis? Oh, you know, I am really
bad at Jenga. This is very goodfor, like, keeping me humble, I
guess. Oh, my God, anythingloose is this loose? Oh,
Jessica Lin (11:37):
Jesus. So I wonder what happens with the audio when
it does collapse. Oh, I think,
Kavita Kerwar (11:43):
okay. This is my one again. I have touched
something I cannot do now. Oh,no, for it is like, Oh, this is
a crumbling tower. This is acrumbling is it gonna crumble?
No, you have to persist. I willhave to persist through. This is
what happens. You know, this wasnot a good experiment. Oh, no.
(12:07):
Oh, audio team's gonna have toremove this audio. Okay. Oh,
I have, for those who are notwatching, what I've done is
basically taken out the topthree floors, and you know what?
It's fine. It's gonna go down.
Okay, yes, and that is how youthat's how you don't do Jenga.
(12:28):
Everyone. All right, moving onto your turn, Jessica, now that
I've taken out three floors andhopefully made it a bit easier,
maybe it's a shorter
Jessica Lin (12:37):
tower, I will say that you took a educated,
calculated risk only threefloors. Yes, you didn't take out
the whole building.
Kavita Kerwar (12:46):
This is like an example or a metaphor for
problem solving under pressure,in leadership, no pressure. So
coming back to like this, thethree floors that have fallen
down, could you tell us about atime when things didn't go as
planned, and what you may havelearned from it,
Jessica Lin (13:07):
yeah, for sure, if I reflect back on my career, I
felt that the I don't want tocall a mistake, I would say the
hardest time I have had isprobably my time in France at
Airbus, because it was a verybig cultural change, moving from
(13:28):
Australia to France and at thesame time for a senior role
while I don't speak thelanguage,
Kavita Kerwar (13:37):
to have a language barrier, new country
and yeah, and
Jessica Lin (13:41):
a big job, big job, yes. So I was quite under
pressure, and but again, I tookthat decision to make that move,
because I was curious about adifferent culture, different
company, and I wanted achallenge. Maybe this time, I
bit off a bit more than I couldchoose. So that was probably the
biggest challenge of my career,because everything kind of just
(14:03):
all was hard, and I was there bymyself. I think if I was there
with family, or if I was in amore, less high pressure role,
if one thing, one factor, wasnot there, maybe it would have
gone better. So ultimately, atthe end, I decided to move back
to Australia after a year. And Ithink my learning there is one
(14:28):
on reflection. I don't think Iprepared well enough before I
went there. I feel like I was soovertaken by the excitement of
the new adventure. I can't Ididn't spend enough time and
effort on looking intounderstanding the culture,
understanding the people and theorganization. I think I could
have done better there, forsure, in terms of preparation,
(14:51):
and then the other learning isthat it's okay to admit that it
didn't work out, and it's okayto change. Change after you
admit to yourself that it's notworking out, rather than
continue persisting on somethingthat's not working out and but
impacting your mental health orimpacting your own career
(15:13):
because of that. So at thatpoint, I did have to I'm a quite
a proud person, and I think alot of people would be and you
self criticize a lot, and atthat time, I had to tell myself,
it's okay to for something tonot work out, and it's okay to
start over. So that was alearning, more of a mental
learning, I suppose, in thatsense.
Kavita Kerwar (15:33):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. That's
That's exactly right. I thinkknowing when to stop and knowing
when something is perhaps not inyour best interest and is not
sustainable, is a very importantskill, like it's often spoken
about, like, leadership is notjust about strategy and
execution, but it's also aboutresilience. What strategies do
you employ today to just managethe stress? Because you do have,
(15:56):
and you have had very highperforming roles and very senior
leadership roles. Whatstrategies do you use?
Jessica Lin (16:07):
How to persist? I I can think of multiple things. I
think, going back to again, whatI said earlier, be excited about
what I'm doing is what makes meresilient, if I'm if I'm have
faith or have commitment to whatI'm doing in the organization, I
(16:29):
will be much more resilient, andI want to push through so
finding something that gives youthat sense of mission, yep, I
say it's the first thing. Not beafraid to ask for help. I think
that's another lesson I'velearned in my journey in France
as well. Because at the end,when I share with my team, am I
(16:51):
my leader that I have to leavebecause it's not working out, a
lot of support actually came outafter that. So I wish at that
time, I would have asked forhelp earlier, and I think that
may have made helped me a bit bea bit more resilient as well.
Kavita Kerwar (17:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you for sharing that. Allright, in the in spirit of
resilience, I'm going to aim todo another Jenga. And who knows,
there might be, like, more morefloors of this tower crumbling
down. Oh my gosh. Okay, forthose who are not following us,
Jessica, this is probably veryentertaining for you, like
Unknown (17:30):
you are taking a bigger risk
Kavita Kerwar (17:31):
this time. Oh, my God, okay. Should I just should
I? Should I leave this one?
Should I just abandon that oneand go for another one? Maybe we
need to do Jenga classes. Ah,yes, come to Jenga strategy.
Jenga strategy for leadership.
Yes, here we go, talking aboutresilience and all of that. One
(17:53):
of the things that comes upoften is imposter syndrome, and
many leaders who are even at thetop of their game experience
that, have you ever had thisexperience, and what tactics do
you use to kind of beat theimposter syndrome?
Jessica Lin (18:11):
I think everybody probably have a different sense
of where they are weak. And forme, the particular area that
makes me have that impostorsyndrome is language. As you
probably can tell, I'm notoriginally from Australia. I'm
not a native English speaker, soI would say English being my
(18:32):
second language is probably whatwould hold me back most of the
time. Would make me have thatimpostor syndrome. Because if I
look around people who arenative English speakers, so
eloquent, articulate, which Idon't feel I am a lot of the
time. So that will be my myAchilles heel, and my boy, the
(18:55):
source of my imposter syndrome.
I think over the years, it doestake time. I think I have to
say, over the year, I did grow abit more confident than I was
when I was earlier in my career.
And I think came to two things.
One is obviously, throughpractice, the more you practice
on something, the more you buildon something you don't feel
confident about, the better youwill be. That's That's quite
(19:17):
obvious. The second thing Iwould say is, actually I have a
funeral moment where somebodygave me a feedback, and that
person actually told me that youdon't speak a lot, and because
I'm naturally a quiet andintroverted person, plus the
language barriers, I don't speaka lot usually, but that person
(19:39):
told me that I don't speak alot, but when you do speak,
everybody listens, and that gaveme the feedback that I should be
more confident about what I wantto express and deliver, and
also, at the same time that,going back to what I say
earlier, capitalize on whatmakes you unique. And what makes
you stand apart from everybodyelse. So my superpower may not
(20:02):
be be being very flamboyant orvery outspoken by my superpower
is being very measured andconsiderate when I do speak and
when that so when I speak, itcarries a lot more weight. So
what I lean on now these days isto be thoughtful for when I
(20:25):
speak, but when I do and not benot be afraid of speaking up.
Kavita Kerwar (20:31):
Oh, that's, that's very good advice. I have
a similar I share this concernwith you, because I moved here
when I was and I grew up inIndia, and I always had this
Achilles heel. I love talking,though, so that's another
problem. But my Achilles heelwas that people don't understand
my accent. And a lot of peoplethat I worked with when, when I
was starting off in my career inAustralia, I thought, oh, people
(20:53):
are not understanding what I'msaying. And I would always joke
that there is a Venn diagrambetween the Australian accent
and the in in the Indian accent,and the intersection is really
very tiny sliver that used to bemy constant joke. And people
like more recently have beenlike, Why do you say this joke?
We understand what you'resaying. I'm like, Okay, fine,
then I can't use that to getaway with it, which was another
(21:15):
thing when I was on this podcastas well, because I feel like
this is much more vulnerable.
Because I'm like, oh, willpeople actually understand what
I'm saying? And maybe more oftenthan not, we hold those
limitations in our minds muchmore than what other people may
think of us like. I've alwaysthought of you as a very
articulate leader, likeextremely articulate and very
concise. Yeah, yeah,
Jessica Lin (21:37):
yeah. So I love what you mentioned about the
Venn diagram, to give it alittle bit humorous spin, make
it softer, because sometimes Iwould also tell people that are
I made a mistake there. It'sbecause the English is my first
language, so I have to beexcused casual, yes, and it
helps ease my discomfort, yes.
Same time I'm also soft in themood with other people. Yeah,
Kavita Kerwar (22:02):
definitely. And it makes because you put
yourself in a vulnerableposition, it makes people show
empathy for you, which goes toyour first point that you were
saying. If you call out for helpor say you're not having the
best time, people are often morewilling to help out than what we
think. Yeah, yeah. That's nowit's your turn for Jenga, let's
see if your leadershipstrategies, oh, now the floors
(22:24):
of Jenga have all shifted. Let'ssee if your leadership strategy
for Jenga like shifts. Allright. Drop a floor. Jessica,
drop it. Take a risk.
Jessica Lin (22:36):
Okay, that's my one try. Oh, yes.
Kavita Kerwar (22:40):
Gosh, this is a bit unfair. I feel like this
Jenga block is cursed. I feellike this workplace. If this was
a workplace, this Jenga is atoxic workplace that does not
want me to participate. Okay, soI guess if you could go, and I
think you've kind of given us afew breadcrumbs and a few
nuggets about this anyways. Butif you could go back in time and
(23:03):
give some advice to your youngerself, you know, who's just
starting off in theirprofessional career, what would
your advice be today?
Jessica Lin (23:11):
What you bring to the table is, is, I don't want
to say enough, but what youbring to the table is very
valuable to the people aroundyou, so don't, don't hold back.
Don't underestimate yourself.
Kavita Kerwar (23:28):
Yeah, that's fantastic. That's fantastic
advice. Yeah. And
Jessica Lin (23:32):
I think often time these days, I am bit more risk
taking than I used to be, andthe time, the way I think about
it is, what's the worst thingthat could happen? What's the
worst thing that could happen?
Maybe somebody doesn't agreewith my idea, and we have to
pause on a particularinitiative. But is that the end
of the world? No, it's not theend of World for my career. No.
(23:53):
So why not just give it a try.
If you don't try, you neverknow. Oh,
Kavita Kerwar (24:00):
that's That's so good. It's like you you miss all
the shots that you don't take,or you miss 100% of the shots
that you don't take. Yeah, it'sreally good. So shifting on to
your early stages of yourcareer, did you ever have
mentors or sponsors who kind ofsupported and supported you in
your
Jessica Lin (24:21):
career? Both I can think of two examples. I
remember when I first moved froman individual contributor role
to a management role, my managerat the time, he would give me
advice not to take the firstopportunity to jump into a lab.
(24:45):
So at the time, there were otherhiring managers approaching him
potential roles for me to totake on. And he would advocate
for me. Sometimes he would saythat role is not, yeah. Are
significant enough, she can do alot better. You have to come
back with a better, bigger rolefor her. Oh, wow. So in a way,
(25:07):
he's kind of making sure that Itake a pathway that's most
beneficial to me, and he'sadvocating for me. So I was
really grateful for that. Sobecause of that, I passed on the
first couple of opportunitiesthat came up and landed one that
did accelerate my career. So Iwas really grateful for that,
(25:28):
and I saw that as a sponsorshipfrom him. And then later on in
my career, I remember anothermentor that I spoke to when I
was trying to make a careerdecision, and in that decision
again, I wasn't sure whether Ishould take up an opportunity or
not, and his advice to me, Istill remember today, is that
(25:51):
you want to evaluate youropportunity, not on its own, not
just on what it is, but you wantto evaluate on what It can lead
you to after. So think longerterm. So if a role looks great
today for what it is, but it'snot necessarily leading to
anything else after, then it'sprobably not the best choice
(26:14):
longer term. So for the samereason, I also declined another
role, because it's quite similarto what I was already doing, and
even though it paid a little bitbetter, it's a different
industry, but everything else isquite similar. So I found that,
based on that advice, I feellike it wasn't really growing
me, so it declined opportunityand took something else later on
(26:38):
instead. Oh
Kavita Kerwar (26:39):
yeah, that's fantastic, because this ties
into the earlier theme you weretalking about. Know your worth,
know what you bring to thetable, and then evaluate every
opportunity. And the advice,don't take the first opportunity
that lands on your lap. That'sgreat. That's great advice. So
now see, you've moved from anindividual contributor role to
manager, overseeing teams, andyou spoke a bit about your
(27:00):
leadership style and how youspark these ideas to help people
scale impact. Was there aninstance that shaped how you
manage teams or manage people?
Jessica Lin (27:11):
Was there a pivotal moment? I'm not sure. I think
it's learning through time, butI do remember quite vividly when
I first took on a managementrole, I I was really nervous
inside, internally, like, Idon't know what I'm doing.
(27:31):
People don't know that. I don'tknow what I'm doing.
Kavita Kerwar (27:34):
So you were afraid of being found out, yes,
and like an imposter, yeah,
Jessica Lin (27:39):
yeah. And because it was taking on a new role and
and what really helped me gotthrough that particular imposter
syndrome at the time is my team,the first team that I led,
somebody actually came to me andtold me I was one. They're the
best manager they've had. So itwas a confident, confidence
(28:02):
boost for me, and that kind ofhelped me to be more confident
in myself, but in terms of how Imature my skill in leading
teams, it it did take time, andespecially in leadership roles,
you don't always see your thefruit of your labor right away.
(28:23):
It's not like you go into youryour ID and build up application
and you can see it up andrunning straight away. It's not
an instant hit sugar hit likethat. Leadership roles, it takes
a lot longer to see the resultsin the people you've grown, or
the business initiative you'rebuilding. So it took time for me
(28:46):
to see my impact on people andon the business, and that helped
me grow my confidence over time.
Kavita Kerwar (28:54):
Oh, and you must have also been really patient,
because you you have to alsokind of like, put the adrenaline
aside and be patient that nowyou've just planted these seeds,
and then you'll see how thingsprogress. Yeah, oh, I wish I had
this patience. But however, Ihave pulled out a Jenga tile,
and now it is back over to you.
For once, it has come outsmoothly, without any
disruption, quietly, achievethat. Yes, thank you. I feel so
(29:16):
validated. Jessica,so you mentioned that your
initial leader turned into yoursponsor. So do you see
mentorship and sponsorship astwo different things,
Jessica Lin (29:42):
yeah, so sort of and sometimes I see myself play
both roles at different times, Ilook at sponsor as someone who
advocate for sponsors, yeah,
Kavita Kerwar (29:58):
for the person.
There's. Potential in Yeah.
Sponsor, yeah, let's go withsponsor,
Jessica Lin (30:03):
yeah. You advocate for them. Yes. You shout on the
rooftop for how good they areand what they can do, and you
recognize and acknowledge theirachievement in a public way. For
me, that's what sponsorship is.
And you give them the challengeto take on. For me, so a
mentorship is for me, more ofsomeone who can be my sounding
(30:25):
board. That person may not bedirectly working with me day to
day, or have direct impact onwhat I do or my outcomes, but
that's a person where I canbounce ideas with I have this
challenge. Should I do X or Y orwhat do you suggest? How I go
(30:46):
about it? That's how I seementorship. And I see myself
play different both roles atdifferent times, like I said,
depending on what the
Kavita Kerwar (30:56):
person needs.
Yeah. So both roles are equallyimportant. I agree. I've heard
this definition used in thepast, that your sponsor should
be the person who's talkingabout you in rooms that you
don't have access to. And Ithink that that's a very
powerful way, especially if youfeel that maybe you need that
additional sphere of influence,like we all do, to have an
advocate for us. Yeah, that'samazing. So do you have any
(31:18):
recommendations on how someonecould go about finding a mentor?
Is there something that you'vetried when you've sought out a
mentor, or when you have amentee who seeks you out?
Jessica Lin (31:32):
Yeah, usually when I personally, when I try to find
a mentor, or when I do find amentor, I tend to go to people
who I respect, who I feel is myrole model, and that's how I
approached a person who gave methe career advice, because I saw
that person being successful andmore experienced, and I look up
(31:54):
to the way that they carrythemselves and do their work. So
I approached them directly tosay, hi, hey, I have this
particular decision I want tomake, it. Can you help me out?
And then we continue on thatrelationship after the initial
question or consultation, if youwill. So that's what I usually i
And when my team ask me, who canthey have the can have mentor?
(32:19):
Who can be the mentors for them,I suggest them to think about
who do they look up to? Oh, dayto day, because you're more
likely to be open to input fromsomebody you do look up to and
respect. And I think the otherimportant part is to put in some
(32:41):
homework in your mentorshiprelationship. It's not, it's not
the good use of time for eitherthe mentor and a mentee, if you
just show up with, I don't knowwhat.
Kavita Kerwar (32:54):
So what would be?
What's your preference, if youhave a mentee, do you want them
to come with a list of thingsthat they're hoping to achieve,
Jessica Lin (33:02):
either hoping to achieve, or some problem that
they're trying to solve, or somequestion they're pondering
themselves internally, that wecan have a brainstorm about,
rather than just quite an opensky conversation. I think part
of that is having the focus sosometimes, oh, I have to say,
(33:23):
most of the time, when peoplecome to me for mentorship, they
usually come with a outcomethereafter or a question they
already have in mind. So usuallyI do see people quite prepared,
and they put in a homework forthat. Yeah,
Kavita Kerwar (33:38):
absolutely. I think if you're asking for
someone's time, then you owe itto the person that you're making
the best use of their time, andyou're getting, as a mentee what
you want out of it as well. I'vehad some mentees in the past who
haven't done this, sounfortunately, we've had a
session, and they've just comein with, like, a whole bunch of
problems, which I understand,and it also, then doesn't help
(34:01):
them, because someone like me,I'm an extrovert, so I'll just
speak off the cuff, and, youknow, reflecting back then, I'll
realize, oh, I would have, itwould have been good if I gave
them these references or theseresources or something like that
to go back and refer to, butbecause I didn't know what we
were talking about, even I wasjust talking about whatever was
front of mind for me at thatpoint in time. So I think it's
(34:21):
very important, and it's greatthat your mentees do that. Do
you have a mentor today? Do you
Jessica Lin (34:28):
I still talk to the same person? Okay, funny enough,
yeah, that'sbeen a relationship that's been
sustaining. Well, that's veryrare. Yeah, that's amazing. Yes,
I don't have a lot of mentors,yes, but I have one too, that's
been quite a long time. Yeah,
Kavita Kerwar (34:47):
cool. I think you also spoke about like being
curious and growing in all theroles that you've been across.
What are your currently what doyou find that helps you grow and
learn in. Your you know, day today, work. Do you listen to
podcasts or any books you'd liketo
Jessica Lin (35:03):
recommend? Yeah, so, I mean,
Kavita Kerwar (35:07):
of course, tech trajectory podcast, yes, we just
had to say it was right. Therethey
Jessica Lin (35:15):
are. Actually, there is a podcast I've been
listening to for years, and it'sstill my go to when I go on road
trips or just put on episode onand listen to it's called how I
built this. How
Kavita Kerwar (35:29):
I built this. I don't know if
Jessica Lin (35:30):
you heard of it. I have Yes, yes. So it's podcast
where entrepreneurs or businessowners who come to tell about
the story of how they builttheir business from the ground
up, and it cuts through allkinds of different industry,
product brands, some of thebrands will be very familiar to
(35:50):
everyone, and includingtechnology brands and or even
physical product brands. So Ifound those stories very
interesting and inspiring,because you hear all kinds of
problems. They have to facedifferent challenges, they have
to solve, and some of them, thebrands that you know about, you
will feel very intimatelyconnected and you curious about
(36:11):
them and and also, myinteresting observation is for
technology brands, the episodes,usually in the scale of, say,
all five, five years, three tofive years each, for that
business to scale, for physicalproduct brands, the story is
usually about a decade slower.
But in a way, you kind of feelgrateful that we're in an
(36:36):
industry that does move fast,but you also have the
appreciation for companies andindustry where they are tied to
physical product, they'reconstrained by the physical
velocity of things. One exampleof that is Dyson as a product.
So their founder story was veryinteresting for me, and that
carried across,
Kavita Kerwar (36:57):
yeah, but what an iconic product. This is not a
plug for Dyson, but what aniconic front. Yeah, they're
fantastic.
Jessica Lin (37:04):
Yeah. So, so I listened to those podcasts as a
way of learning about how to howother people deal with
challenges, and oftentimeschallenges and you never face or
even thought of before. Yeah,
Kavita Kerwar (37:17):
yeah. That's a great yeah. It's a great
recommendation. What about intech? Because most leaders now
like technology, landscape ischanging so fast. Is there any
newsletters, anything you readto keep up with what's
happening?
Jessica Lin (37:33):
I think these days I probably, like everybody else,
trying to learn a little bitmore on AI and Gen AI. So I'm
going through a course on Gen AIcertification right now, and by
going through an online coursemyself, I'm sure most people
probably know there's Coursera,there's other forms, other
(37:55):
online learning forms, that'svery readily accessible and
available now. So I still dothat from time to time. Probably
would have liked to spend a bitmore time on that, but as much
as I can, yeah,
Kavita Kerwar (38:07):
that makes total sense. I think I've heard so
much apprehension from peoplewho've already been in tech, or
have been around and who maybehaven't necessarily worked in AI
and then to learn about it. Andit's been so rapid, it's gone
from just being something thatwas in everyone's peripheral
vision to being like, front andcenter in every conversation,
(38:27):
almost every news article,whether it's about the stock
market or New Video or like,whether it's about like, day to
day use so it's very front ofmind. And I think it's great to
know that even you, as a leadertoday, you were like, you know,
be curious and do learning andbe open to that. I think that
your initial advice stillapplies. That's fantastic. Thank
you. All right, should we dosome Jenga? Oh, I feel like I'm
(38:50):
going to knock this tower downjust for everyone on the call
this. These are some experimentswhich are failed experiments.
What has happened is the wholetower has shifted, so there's
been a pivot in the direction ofthis tower, and now I have to,
like, figure out a strategy. Butyou know, it's okay, we've never
had a tower fall on the pot. Oh,is that right? Yeah, that's
(39:13):
right. Maybe today. Maybe today.
Yeah, you pione, yeah,absolutely. That's what I'm
doing. Oh, my God, maybe Ishould do okay, you know what?
Oh, god, okay. Should I do thisone? Oh, no, okay, that's my
one. You're shifting it back. Imight. I did shift it back.
(39:33):
Maybe I made it stable. Maybe myexperiment is no, oh, oh
Jessica Lin (39:39):
no. Oh, okay. All right, fantastic.
Kavita Kerwar (39:47):
Did that come through on your headphones? This
is a big impact experiment. Allright, I think on that note,
this has been a fantasticconversation. I've. Actually run
through all of the questions Ihad, and you were so succinct in
your article, so concise. And Ican't believe you started this
off by saying that that was athing you were a bit
(40:09):
apprehensive about early on.
Thank you so much for your time,Jessica. I think I've learned so
much about you that I didn'tknow, and I now that I think
back to it. I think I workedwith you for the first time in
your team, and this is probablya decade back, so it was like 10
years ago, and this is, this isa whole different side to you. I
think I learned a lot more ofJessica the person, not just
Jessica the technology leader.
(40:33):
So thank you so much, and it'sbeen fantastic working with you.
I think we've also interactedwith the DiUS teams who worked
in your squad, in your currentrole at Commonwealth Bank, but
thank you so much for your time.
This has been great. If you'veenjoyed today's episode, please
subscribe to the tech trajectorypodcast, and we'll be back for
more conversations with thehumans leading technology. Thank
(40:54):
you. You.
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