March 11, 2024 • 35 mins
Imagine transforming from a coder behind the screen to a tech visionary leading a startup revolution. That's the story of our guest Adi, the CEO of ScaleUp. He takes us through his enriching journey from software development to innovative entrepreneurship, revealing the pivotal moments that reshaped his career and the startup landscape. We zoom in on Adi's groundbreaking approach to tech services, where he merges business acumen with legal and monetization expertise, crafting a partnership that's more than just outsourcing—it's a blueprint for startup success.
Venture into the realm of strategic product creation as we dissect the concept of a long-lasting MVP, a beacon in today's fast-paced tech world. With Adi's insights, we'll show you why betting on gradual, feedback-driven development trumps the allure of big-budget splurges. From niche music industry game-changers to the seismic shifts in the post-pandemic startup ecosystem, we explore how innovation thrives in the new remote work era. This episode is your guide to understanding the changing tides of startup scaling and the art of crafting products with enduring impact.
As we navigate the future of startups in an AI-augmented era, we find balance in the human element amidst the hybrid work revolution. We ponder the role of AI in software development, tackling the tough questions about its influence on creativity and job security. Whether you're an aspiring software developer eager to stay ahead of the curve, or a founder deciding between bootstrapping and wooing investors, this conversation is packed with rich insights. Adi leaves us with a parting shot of wisdom: mastering core programming languages is the key to longevity in the tech world, so arm yourself with knowledge and dive into the future prepared.
Adi Behlulovic
https://www.linkedin.com/in/adibehlulovic/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Tech Travels hosted by the seasoned
tech enthusiast and industryexpert, steve Woodard.
With over 25 years ofexperience and a track record of
collaborating with thebrightest minds in technology,
steve is your seasoned guidethrough the ever-evolving world
of innovation.
Join us as we embark on aninsightful journey, exploring
(00:27):
the past, present and future oftech under Steve's expert
guidance.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome back, fellow travelers, to another exciting
episode of Tech Travels.
In today's episode, we'reventuring into the world of tech
innovation with a truevisionary who has turned over 50
star-in-app dreams into marketrealities.
His ventures have a marketvaluation of over 100 million
euros and he's even navigatedthe pivotal Series A funding
(00:55):
landscape.
He's a maestro of AI andblockchain and he's leveraging
cutting edge to stay ahead.
Join us as we explore how thisamazing guest has not just
navigated it, but he's alsocrafting the tech terrain.
Welcome to the show, adi Thanks.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Steve, thanks for the great intro.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Absolutely so, to help our listeners know a little
bit about your background, canyou tell us about your journey
and how you found yourself beingCEO of ScaleUp?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yeah, sure, I would be happy to share.
My journey started maybe early2000s when I basically went on
to university and studiedinformation systems and
management.
Soon after graduation I startedworking as an intern in
(01:43):
software development world.
A couple of my first projectsin the first few years as a
software developer were a bitmore on the enterprise side and
it was maybe for maybe two orthree or four years that I
continued working withenterprises and probably that
was the reason why I kind ofmade a shift in the career as
(02:06):
well.
I mean total shift.
I shifted from working as asoftware developer to a more
management role as a projectmanager.
Initially it was a bit thrillingkind of moving to project
management role in a startupecosystem and I started
(02:28):
basically by kind of organizingteams and making sure that the
team organization is up to thechallenge of startups, of
building startup products,because definitely it's
something that needs specialattention when it comes to
organizing these teams forstartups.
(02:48):
And after a few years ofworking as a project manager I
started working as a productmanager where basically I had a
bit more responsibility in termsof actually making decisions on
the product, in terms of thefeatures that you're going to
build, in terms of the metricsthat you're going to track and,
in general, kind of keepingeverything aligned between the
(03:12):
stakeholders and the productitself.
And at that point, basicallythose achievements that you
mentioned are kind of where theycame.
Basically, I led first onestartup through the Series A
where they basically managed toraise about two to three million
euros.
Soon after that I led anotherstartup it was a gaming startup
(03:37):
that basically had an evaluationof 100 million euros at one
point.
All of those roles.
After that I worked as a proxyrole as well as a product
manager for multiple startupsfrom USA and EU countries as
well.
But all of those roles werethrough a proxy role, through
(03:58):
different tech companies, techservice companies and kind of.
It was limiting, in a way, thatthe level of responsibility or
the level of decision makingthat I could do on the product
itself.
And I identified that there isa gap in how all of these tech
service companies work withstartups and I decided to step
(04:22):
up the game and find scale up.
And at that point, basically Ihave found scale up and since
2019, we are leveraging that andfilling that gap in a way that
tech service companies areworking with startups like many
of them majority of them that Iwork for are kind of trying to
(04:42):
replicate the outsourcing modeland apply that to startups, and
it simply doesn't work.
I mean, if you want to scalestartup, if you want to make
startup success from thattechnical aspect, you need to be
a bit more hands on with thestartup and it's not simply
simple as that.
Like outsourcing, it's more ofbeing that extended arm and then
kind of making decisions,making the advice is, making
(05:07):
making sure that every aspect ofproduct is built correctly, etc
.
So it needs a bit more reliable.
It needs a bit more dedication,I would say, from the tech team
, and that is what we dobasically from 2019 onwards.
We're working with startupsfrom Europe and USA, building
startups from the tech side ofthe things, assisting with
(05:28):
monetization strategy, assistingwith business strategy,
assisting with legal stuff, etc.
Like trying to be one stop shopfor startups from all around
the globe.
So pretty much that's where weare at the moment.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
No, yeah, adi, that's amazing.
Your journey from project toproduct management and
identifying a critical gap inthose tech services for startups
is really fascinating.
I wonder what was the precisemoment or instance that
highlighted this gap for you.
Was it a particular trend inoutsourcing that you found that
(06:02):
didn't align with startup needs,or did you notice a broader
need within companies thatsimply just couldn't fulfill
internally?
I'm really interested in whatsparked the creation of scale-up
and what was your approach toproviding a real comprehensive
approach for tech partnershipsfor startups.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Yeah, good question.
I mentioned that outsourcingmodel.
So all of the majority of bigtech companies that you know
that are from kind of known techservice companies.
When I say tech companies, Imean tech service companies.
The majority of them are thebiggest of them are awesome in
(06:43):
that organization segment, inproviding developers for the
startups, for the enterprises.
So when enterprise comes andsay, okay, I need 30 developers
of this exact technology or ofthis exact tech stack, etc.
So they're perfect in aligningand offering that kind of
support.
(07:03):
If someone comes to me inscale-up and says, okay, I need
40 developers of specifictechnology, I would say like no
chance that we can provide that.
So these companies are awesomein that segment.
But they're more kind ofspecialists rather than
generalists and I would say thatin order that you can work
successfully with startups, youneed to be a bit more on that
(07:27):
generalist side where you canassist startups in multiple ways
.
So it's not only like givingthem developers and saying, okay
, this is hourly rate fordevelopers and this is it, so
they are your developers.
Now it's not simple, as that.
Startups needs a bit moreattention.
They need help in organizing,they need help in building the
product roadmap, they need helpin user research and customer
(07:51):
research, etc.
So this is the gap, basically,that I identified by working
with my majority of thesecompanies.
Like big companies I work forand they're kind of perfect in
this model that I said, likehaving being able to provide a
huge number of resources theycall it resources to multiple of
(08:12):
these enterprises and theirproficient.
They're really like that.
That setup is awesome.
But when it comes to startup,it's whole different game and
whole different story.
And I always say to startupslike you don't need to work with
scale up, but when you choosestartup, like when you choose
tech partner, you need to choosecompany not by the number of
employees but by the expertisethat they have, because majority
(08:35):
of big, big players there arenot going to provide the
services that these smallerplayers can.
So that is a pretty interestingpoint.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, absolutely, adi .
I mean you've eliminated theunique need for startups to be
compared you know that need tobe compared to large enterprises
, especially when it comes totech partnership Start.
Sometimes startups oftenoperate within a limited number
of resources and really theyneed partners who offer not just
manpower but really can helptarget that expertise.
(09:06):
So can you walk us through howyou step into a startup's
journey to help them refinetheir ideas and really develop a
market ready type of MVP orminimum viable product?
What kind of, specifically,what type of strategic input and
direction do you provide toensure that they're not just
creating a product but the rightproduct for the right target
(09:30):
market?
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Good question.
Like that is more, like it'smore that performing that due
diligence at start.
It's about like if someonecomes to me and said, okay, I
have 100k for MVP, I would neverbuild the MVP for 100k because
that's that's stupid move forfrom from the tech company to do
(09:55):
.
And whenever someone asks me,like are you stupid?
I mean why don't you take allof the money that they are
offering?
It's, it's, we are in it for along term.
You know so, so, and I thinkthat every tech company should
be in the game for long term.
When I say long term, it says,okay, you have a 100k for a
budget, that's awesome, butlet's put it on drawing board
and let's see what kind offunctionalities are the core for
(10:17):
your product and let's build,build it with the smallest
amount of budget possible, likeit's it's 20, 30 or 40 or 50k,
um, and let's get it out there.
You know so.
So let's build that MVP, thatthat has that unique value
proposition that you need, thatyou, you, you Invision and then
show that to customers on board,new customers, take the
feedback and then use theremaining budget on, on,
(10:40):
upgrading the product to, to tobe accustomed to the needs of
the customers of your productright.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
I mean that's a very compelling approach to MVP
development, focusing on corevalue with an agile response to
to feedback.
Really interesting.
But reflecting on this, couldyou could you highlight or, you
know, just highlight a standoutproject where your methodology
really made a significant impact?
I'm interested Really in a casewhere, once you've launched,
(11:12):
the market response wasoverwhelmingly positive or even
game changer for some users.
Any examples that you can share, I mean that would be really
fascinating.
I mean even just just broadstrokes of what it was and its
success.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Yeah, it's, it's everyone is talking about.
Well, that wall factory, youknow so.
So it's it's it's really hardto to put it out there and and
that everyone says it's it's awow factor.
You know, like, if you, if youtake a look at the history, it's
only fraction, fraction of ofproducts made that that everyone
says it's it's wow, you know so.
So this is like these big tools, like big apps, like instagram,
(11:48):
tick tock, etc.
But Majority reality ismajority of the tools and
majority of the apps that arebeing billed are basically
resolving some, some specificneeds in the niche industries.
And if I tell you now,basically, like, majority of
your audience are going to say,okay, that that's nothing
special, you know.
But but Some of niche audienceare going to say from that
(12:11):
industry are going to say, okay,this is something that, that,
that, that that gets that wowfactor.
You know so.
For example, I know we did a lotof products from music industry
.
Coincidentally, you know, like,when you, when you build a
couple of products for foundersfrom music industry, they get,
they refer us to theircolleagues that are from the
same industry and it goes likethat.
(12:31):
So majority of these productsfrom music industry are kind of
trying to connect users, toconnect musicians all around the
globe.
Um, it's, it's I think it isthe effect of corona and
everything that happened, liketrying to work remotely, etc.
So so they figure that eventhey don't need to to be
in-house, uh, in order to recorda song or something like that.
(12:52):
So majority of these tools arekind of leaning towards
connecting people online so thatMultiple artists from multiple
countries can work online to torecord a song, for example, or
something like that.
So so these are kind of similartools like this that really are
potential big revolution in thefuture for, for for music
industry.
There are others like legal,legal Uh products that we have
(13:16):
built and that that are kind oftrying to to revolutionize the
legal world in a way that thatAll of these effect industries
that are kind of more offline,um, are trying to see that
benefit Online.
They they didn't have it needbefore with simple like building
the web presence, but now, withwith all of this artificial
(13:37):
intelligence and everything, uh,they truly do do see the the
benefit of that and they'retrying to build out tools more
and more that are basicallyleaning towards that artificial
intelligence and start Startingto exploit that in a way to to
enhance their, their business.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, that's interesting because I the the
shift in the startup ecosystempost pandemic Is an indeed a
profound one.
So, reflecting on this change,how have you really kind of
observed startups adapting tothese type of new work models?
Are they still gravitatingtoward physical offices, uh, for
(14:14):
that synergistic type of energy, um or is it more of a tangible
pivot where they're starting toembrace remote, remote setups
for long-term flexibility?
I mean, just In your view, hasthis impacted their pace of
innovation and their ability toscale?
I would think that you know youwould think of, especially
(14:34):
around AI that's playing moreand more and more of a
significant role in their typeof operations.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Yeah, that that's kind of awesome point, because
there's this big battle, if yousee, like that, that there are
people that are promoting likeremote and and they are like
Always saying like I would onlywork for remote companies, and
then on the other side there isa, there are companies that I
think like in office rules, youknow so, so we need to stay in
(15:03):
office in order to improve thequality of the work and
everything.
Uh, personally, I saw that kindof the trend was, as you said,
like in in corona.
It was the remote, obviouslybecause of the situation, global
situation, etc.
Um, and part of why the peoplewere enthusiastic about that is
that that is something new and Iand basically they were forced
(15:26):
to do that.
Nowadays I see the trend goingback into in office and
basically like people are reallyenjoying that socializing on
work and kind of being One meterto meter from another person
and kind of working together onsome specific tasks.
(15:47):
I feel that everything in workshould be a balance, you know.
So I don't like extremes ineither direction.
So I'm not big fan of remotefirst or remote only companies,
and not big fan of companiesthat are saying, okay, in office
is the way to work.
So I think the futuredefinitely lies in hybrid,
hybrid mode.
(16:07):
So basically, either allowingpeople that to love to work
couple of days from home, orgiving them an option to work
from home if they would like.
So I think that hybrid is theway that that is going to be in
the future.
Definitely there is a shift ofpeople that are coming back to
the office and kind of praisingabout that and loving that fact.
(16:28):
I think they're going back tothe office yeah, it's
interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
I mean navigating the shift in the workplace, I mean,
specifically, preferences postpandemic is fascinating.
I mean so with this return tooffice, you know this office
basis and the social aspectsthey bring.
I mean it sounds like thehybrid model is what you're
forcing as the future norm.
So switching gears back to a I.
(16:52):
As we look and we stand in 2024, there is a surge of a I tools
at our disposal and I'm reallycurious about the tangible
impact it has on startups.
So, with your finger on thepulse of product development,
are you observing that theseadvancements are truly
accelerating innovation andthey're giving startups that
(17:13):
cutting edge?
Or is there a sense ofoverwhelm, with startups
grappling with these type oftools and how they really
meaningfully integrate them intotheir product vision and their
overall operations?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yes, it's still that that kind of early period of
adoption.
You know, like in personally,in my industry for start, like
in the software developmentindustry, that that shift is
there, but but it's still earlyand there were there was a fear,
you know from for in the ingeneral, in software development
(17:48):
community, that I is going totake the jobs and that the I is
going to replace the softwaredevelopment, etc.
So it will never happen in myopinion.
But people that are kind of notusing these tools, that are
spawning everywhere, are goingto be deprecated, you know so.
(18:08):
So they would need to bereplaced with developers that
are using these tools, becausewhat will happen, in my opinion,
is also development, is thatProductivity is going to
increase a lot.
So.
So, for example, somethingthat's one one developer was
doing game five years ago infive years ago, one developer is
going to do the same stuff inin in the half day, in half time
(18:30):
, or something like that.
So that that that is that shiftthat is going to be there like
enhance productivity and that isthe core thing I think In terms
of startups.
They are using the tools.
There is kind of like two, twosides of the.
They're like one star thatcouple of times that we're
working, for example, are reallyusing the tools in their work
(18:52):
day and they tend to get lostbecause there is like a lot of
these tools.
You know, like every day, Ithink there is a bunch of new
tool that are spawningeverywhere, so they're getting
lost and productivity isn'tincreased when they are and
people don't have enough moneyto build it from scratch, so
they are what do you use?
(19:13):
Something that is already there, because of that data
sensitivity.
So I would say that there is amixture of everything.
So it will take some time, kindof, to resolve and see which
tool wins, which tool is thebest to use and, and Definitely
start with that are using thetools, are going to be in the
forefront and are going to havea big advantage on the
(19:35):
competition side.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah, I think it's clear that I truly is
revolutionizing productivity insoftware development and even
beyond that.
And essentially, I thinkstartups are at various stages,
are embracing these tools.
Probably some of them arereally using it to enhance their
work and I think others areprobably still very likely
hesitant.
But striking the right balancebetween leveraging a I and
(20:00):
maintaining some personalessence is really, I think,
unique to each startup brand.
I think that's what's the keyright there.
When you're advising startupsand communicating with investors
, how do you navigate thatconversation around using I
wisely without losing the humantouch that is often really the
(20:20):
hallmark of a startups brandidentity?
And in this context, could youalso elaborate on how startups
should way Bootstrapping againstseeking out funding on their
own?
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Yeah, yeah so.
So, in essence, bootstrappingis building product with your
own money or, to be more precise, is building a startup,
building your product withoutgiving activity to anyone.
So, basically, you have yourbootstrapped and you have your
own money that you're investing,while basically raising funds
(20:55):
or are looking for investors,means that there is someone on
board that has equity in yourproduct and they invest their
own money in building yourproduct.
So, basically, that is, like,at the core, the difference.
But, as I always say, likeOften question that I get from
from either from founders orfrom from a couple of investors
(21:19):
that we are working with as well, like they often ask us like
what do you think?
What is the bad, what is better?
You know, like there is twosides of the thing.
One one side of the thing isthat it's better to invest your
own money and keep the equity inyour product, but the bad side
of that is that if product fails, you lost your money, right?
If you get the investment, yougive out the equity.
(21:44):
So the bad side of the thing isthat, basically, someone else
is going to take earnings off ofyour product, right?
The good side of that is, ifproduct fails, you didn't lost
your, you lose your money.
Basically, the investors losttheir money, right.
So there is kind of the goodand bad side in all.
(22:05):
I would say that in order forcompany to scale up no pun
intended In order for company toscale up, it does need some
external investment at one point.
I would say that, as long asyou have that, as you start off,
(22:25):
founders don't have exact ideaof what they want to achieve,
and if the problem that they'reresolving is really problem and
the solution that they have isreally solution for the problems
for their customers, theyshould bootstrap until they find
that solution for the problems.
When they do find that and Imean building like simple MVP or
(22:48):
something like that when theydo that, that might be a good
time for start raising and startconnecting with potential
investors, et cetera.
The reason for that is thatit's a lot easier to get
investor when you can show thatyou have a clear path to product
market fit.
And the second reason is that,since you already have a product
, you already have made someprogress.
(23:09):
It's going to take less equitygiving away less equity for more
money.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
So what are some indicators that signal the need
for scaling up?
You mentioned scalability, andI think this is kind of where,
when startups start to progressto a certain stage, they often
reach a point where they mustexpand their operations.
I think this phase is kind ofreferred to as reaching velocity
.
So when you've observed thesestartups, what are the different
(23:38):
funding changes that they needrequired in scaling up?
What are the critical factorsthat really enable those
startups to achieve truescalability, whether through
secure funding or accessingresources, acquiring talent or
just other key elements thatreally help propel them to the
next level of growth?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yeah, startups are a tricky game At start.
When everyone starts, thefounders are doing everything by
themselves, right?
So all of everything I meanfrom marketing, sales, product
et cetera, everything that isdone by founders to founders or
through the funding team, let'ssay like that, gradually, as
(24:20):
startups is evolving and growing, all of these things should be
taken care by someone else.
Your, basically founders,should start slowly to delegate
things, and this is the criticalaspect.
So, in choosing the rightpeople, persons and right people
to delegate these importanttasks, so it's time to employ
(24:44):
someone to be CMO, for example,chief Marketing Officer.
You need to have someonereliant, that reliable that you
can.
You know that they're going toperform well.
Same goes for other positionslike CFO or CPO, et cetera.
So, basically, you need to havea great team and that is the
(25:06):
core to whom you can delegatethe responsibilities that you
have.
When it comes to the scaling upyour product.
If you have a good, solid team,it's easy to get the
organization inside of the team,it's easy to get that planning,
it's easy to prepare thatinfrastructure for to overcome
(25:30):
everything that comes withscaling Huge number of users,
huge number of invoices, hugenumber of visibility towards
multiple clients, a lot ofcommunication with potential
clients and everything thatneeds to be handled correctly.
But having that right team forthat is the key.
(25:52):
Everyone is kind of obsessedwith the planning and
organization and I say that it'seasy easy to say it like that.
It's really easy to do that ifyou have the right team.
If you don't have the rightteam, every organization and
planning of work is going to betough to do.
And don't be afraid aboutemploying the wrong people, it
(26:14):
will happen inevitably.
It's about having a system thatbasically spots that there are
some bad performances out of theteam that can be replaced, that
must be replaced.
So that is the key.
So to have that kind of systemof responsibility inside of the
team that clearly states okay,this was your responsibility,
(26:34):
this wasn't done correctly, etcetera.
And then basically replacementcomes and everything is pretty
much resolved.
But in order to have that youneed to have a capable majority
of the team and have that systemin place.
And I say, like organization,everything comes naturally with
the right thing.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's definitely a great bit
of wisdom.
So two questions before weround out our segment for the
day.
My first question is just inyour opinion, how do you start
to see AI transforming that joblandscape for software
developers and startup?
I know you mentioned it's notgonna eliminate jobs, but what
do you see as kind of thepivotal, that kind of that
(27:15):
watermark moment where it'sgoing to change kind of how
software developers work in astartup environment?
Speaker 3 (27:24):
No big change comes overnight.
So when Chagy Pity was releasedit was a boom, but nothing
changed overnight.
No one lost their job overnight.
It is going to be gradualprocess.
If you take a look like forsoftware developers, it's they
cannot.
(27:44):
The productivity of softwaredevelopment has increased
already with these AI tools,like internally in scale up.
We are using them, but it's notlike 40 or 50% increase in
productivity.
It's more like 10 to 20%increase by using these tools.
But in a way it's not going tocome overnight.
But the core thing is thatpeople need to understand that
(28:08):
when I say people, it's softwaredevelopers and need to
understand that the job that wehave done for decade is going to
be revolutionized in a way thatit's going to be changed and
it's going to be.
We need to start using thesetools in order to increase the
productivity, increase theefficiency of the code, increase
the speed of writing the code,et cetera.
(28:30):
And, as I say, like if you'renot using it, it's not that in a
year you're going to lose yourjob, but this is going to be a
gradual process.
So more or less in the next fewyears we might see even in job
ads there that there is arequirement that people are
familiar with these AI toolsthat are writing the code and
(28:50):
reproducing the code andtroubleshooting the code and
everything.
So this is gradual process, butI feel that at this point the
cleverest of software developersare going to understand that
this change is coming and thatthey're going to be willing to
try new things and try to see ifthey can increase their own
productivity by using these AItools and staying up to trends.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yes, that's the key right there is being able to
stay up to date.
I know that things move andchange and evolve so rapidly
that the pace of innovationcomes out so quickly.
I think that the difficulty issome software developers are
looking to future proof theircareers in the form of AI.
So kind of given that context,if you were to speak to a group
(29:36):
of software developers, whatadvice would you give them about
how they can still continue tokeep learning and upskilling in
this rapid pace, just becausethings are just coming out so
fast?
How can they hyper focus onjust staying focused on being
software developers with wheneverything's being thrown at
them?
What advice would you givethose young kids?
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Yeah, that advice never changes.
I always advise everyone whenthey're starting their career
like focus on single developmentprogramming language and that
language needs to be somethingthat's like a core long problem
in the language.
I don't want to be too techy,but if someone starts off as a
(30:19):
software developer and theystart using a React as a
JavaScript framework, that'spretty short-sighted.
You know, like if you'reproficient in React, that's cool
for the start and for now, butwhat is going to happen in a few
years?
Is React going to be popular ornot?
So it's going to be an issuefor them to shift from to
another language and everythingand to another framework.
(30:39):
But if you get that coreknowledge, understanding like
starting with some basiclanguage, like core language,
like Java or JavaScript orsomething like that
understanding that concept ofsoftware development, how
everything is code, how code iswritten, what code does, etc.
Understanding one programminglanguage in details really opens
(31:02):
up the perspective and it'sreally easy for developers to
shift to another programminglanguage.
A majority of people that I workwith that are really proficient
in one language.
It's a matter of a few months toswitch to another programming
language and they are writingthe perfect code in that
language as well.
And regarding the AI tools forjunior developers, I would say
(31:23):
don't bother with that when youstart a career, because AI tools
are great assistance to at themoment for a bit more senior
developers or developers thatare able to write their own code
For junior developers, they aregoing to be lost in that level
of code that is being generatedby AI.
It's like something is AI toolswriting the code that they
(31:49):
don't understand.
So you need to understand whatthe tool is writing.
So in order to do that, youneed to be proficient with the
code.
You need to understand the codeand everything.
So I would say, when you'restarting, choose the core
language, learn it in detailsand then it's really easy to
even exploit these AI tools orshift to another programming
language if you would like, etc.
So that is the advice thatstood there for, I think, less
(32:11):
decade or so.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Well, truly fascinating, so, adi.
So, as we wrap up, as we bringthings to a close, I would love
to hear your final thoughts onwhere you see startups
integrating AI into the future.
What's your vision for the nextwave of innovation in this
space?
What are you looking for?
Speaker 3 (32:31):
In terms of innovation.
It's really hard to predict,you know.
So it's like we have a big leapwith LLMS today.
A big question is going to behow to truly innovate with LLMS
in whole set of industries thatwe have today, and it's
something that's really hard todo.
(32:55):
It's hard to predict becauseevery industry is going to have
their own revolution in terms ofthe AI, so it's hard to predict
for each industry.
In general, I think that we hada breakthrough.
Llms are there.
It's more a matter of questionhow to implement that or how to
reuse that technology inspecific industry.
(33:17):
Technology movers like myselfare not going to be able to do
that on their own, so in orderto do that correctly, we are
going to need industry experts,you know.
So if we are building a toolfor the music industry, we are
going to need industry expertsfrom from the music industry.
If you're doing that for alegal industry, you're going to
(33:37):
need expert from legal industry,etc.
So it's more going to be acooperation between tech
companies, as it always was,with industry experts, and I
feel that at this moment, likethe biggest benefit that, in
general, ai is going to bring isa fast, fast prototyping in a
(33:58):
way that you can really spin offa lot of ideas in a shorter
amount of time and see if theywork.
You know so, before that you hadthree or four months basically
of building the MVPs, seeing ifthat will work.
I think that nowadays we areclosing the gap and kind of we
are trying to get something outthere in a few months or month
(34:18):
or two and spinning off multipleideas and seeing if they get
traction.
If they get traction, then wecan build it up and basically
build a proper code and properproduct.
And I feel that is the biggestadvantage that at the moment AI
is going to produce, like givingthat flexibility to founders to
test a lot of ideas in ashorter amount of time, see what
(34:38):
works and then double down onthat idea.
But it's going to be definitelyinteresting to see if what kind
of revolution to a specificindustry AI is going to bring,
and I think that's really reallyhard to predict.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
I wish we had a crystal ball so we can predict
right, so that way we can startbetting on the future.
Atty it's been an absolutepleasure having you on the Tech
Travels podcast.
Your insights and experiencesare really invaluable to our
listeners and I'm sure they'regoing to walk away with some new
perspectives and probably bebuilding some successful startup
(35:14):
and tech ventures on their own.
Thanks for sharing your timeand, when you're wisdom, with us
today.
It's much appreciated, thankyou.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Anytime, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Steve, thank you very much.
Until next time.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Yeah, thanks, bye, bye.
Welcome to Tech Travels hosted by the seasoned
tech enthusiast and industryexpert, steve Woodard.
With over 25 years ofexperience and a track record of
collaborating with thebrightest minds in technology,
steve is your seasoned guidethrough the ever-evolving world
of innovation.
Join us as we embark on aninsightful journey, exploring
(00:27):
the past, present and future oftech under Steve's expert
guidance.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome back, fellow travelers, to another exciting
episode of Tech Travels.
In today's episode, we'reventuring into the world of tech
innovation with a truevisionary who has turned over 50
star-in-app dreams into marketrealities.
His ventures have a marketvaluation of over 100 million
euros and he's even navigatedthe pivotal Series A funding
(00:55):
landscape.
He's a maestro of AI andblockchain and he's leveraging
cutting edge to stay ahead.
Join us as we explore how thisamazing guest has not just
navigated it, but he's alsocrafting the tech terrain.
Welcome to the show, adi Thanks.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Steve, thanks for the great intro.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Absolutely so, to help our listeners know a little
bit about your background, canyou tell us about your journey
and how you found yourself beingCEO of ScaleUp?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yeah, sure, I would be happy to share.
My journey started maybe early2000s when I basically went on
to university and studiedinformation systems and
management.
Soon after graduation I startedworking as an intern in
(01:43):
software development world.
A couple of my first projectsin the first few years as a
software developer were a bitmore on the enterprise side and
it was maybe for maybe two orthree or four years that I
continued working withenterprises and probably that
was the reason why I kind ofmade a shift in the career as
(02:06):
well.
I mean total shift.
I shifted from working as asoftware developer to a more
management role as a projectmanager.
Initially it was a bit thrillingkind of moving to project
management role in a startupecosystem and I started
(02:28):
basically by kind of organizingteams and making sure that the
team organization is up to thechallenge of startups, of
building startup products,because definitely it's
something that needs specialattention when it comes to
organizing these teams forstartups.
(02:48):
And after a few years ofworking as a project manager I
started working as a productmanager where basically I had a
bit more responsibility in termsof actually making decisions on
the product, in terms of thefeatures that you're going to
build, in terms of the metricsthat you're going to track and,
in general, kind of keepingeverything aligned between the
(03:12):
stakeholders and the productitself.
And at that point, basicallythose achievements that you
mentioned are kind of where theycame.
Basically, I led first onestartup through the Series A
where they basically managed toraise about two to three million
euros.
Soon after that I led anotherstartup it was a gaming startup
(03:37):
that basically had an evaluationof 100 million euros at one
point.
All of those roles.
After that I worked as a proxyrole as well as a product
manager for multiple startupsfrom USA and EU countries as
well.
But all of those roles werethrough a proxy role, through
(03:58):
different tech companies, techservice companies and kind of.
It was limiting, in a way, thatthe level of responsibility or
the level of decision makingthat I could do on the product
itself.
And I identified that there isa gap in how all of these tech
service companies work withstartups and I decided to step
(04:22):
up the game and find scale up.
And at that point, basically Ihave found scale up and since
2019, we are leveraging that andfilling that gap in a way that
tech service companies areworking with startups like many
of them majority of them that Iwork for are kind of trying to
(04:42):
replicate the outsourcing modeland apply that to startups, and
it simply doesn't work.
I mean, if you want to scalestartup, if you want to make
startup success from thattechnical aspect, you need to be
a bit more hands on with thestartup and it's not simply
simple as that.
Like outsourcing, it's more ofbeing that extended arm and then
kind of making decisions,making the advice is, making
(05:07):
making sure that every aspect ofproduct is built correctly, etc
.
So it needs a bit more reliable.
It needs a bit more dedication,I would say, from the tech team
, and that is what we dobasically from 2019 onwards.
We're working with startupsfrom Europe and USA, building
startups from the tech side ofthe things, assisting with
(05:28):
monetization strategy, assistingwith business strategy,
assisting with legal stuff, etc.
Like trying to be one stop shopfor startups from all around
the globe.
So pretty much that's where weare at the moment.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
No, yeah, adi, that's amazing.
Your journey from project toproduct management and
identifying a critical gap inthose tech services for startups
is really fascinating.
I wonder what was the precisemoment or instance that
highlighted this gap for you.
Was it a particular trend inoutsourcing that you found that
(06:02):
didn't align with startup needs,or did you notice a broader
need within companies thatsimply just couldn't fulfill
internally?
I'm really interested in whatsparked the creation of scale-up
and what was your approach toproviding a real comprehensive
approach for tech partnershipsfor startups.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Yeah, good question.
I mentioned that outsourcingmodel.
So all of the majority of bigtech companies that you know
that are from kind of known techservice companies.
When I say tech companies, Imean tech service companies.
The majority of them are thebiggest of them are awesome in
(06:43):
that organization segment, inproviding developers for the
startups, for the enterprises.
So when enterprise comes andsay, okay, I need 30 developers
of this exact technology or ofthis exact tech stack, etc.
So they're perfect in aligningand offering that kind of
support.
(07:03):
If someone comes to me inscale-up and says, okay, I need
40 developers of specifictechnology, I would say like no
chance that we can provide that.
So these companies are awesomein that segment.
But they're more kind ofspecialists rather than
generalists and I would say thatin order that you can work
successfully with startups, youneed to be a bit more on that
(07:27):
generalist side where you canassist startups in multiple ways
.
So it's not only like givingthem developers and saying, okay
, this is hourly rate fordevelopers and this is it, so
they are your developers.
Now it's not simple, as that.
Startups needs a bit moreattention.
They need help in organizing,they need help in building the
product roadmap, they need helpin user research and customer
(07:51):
research, etc.
So this is the gap, basically,that I identified by working
with my majority of thesecompanies.
Like big companies I work forand they're kind of perfect in
this model that I said, likehaving being able to provide a
huge number of resources theycall it resources to multiple of
(08:12):
these enterprises and theirproficient.
They're really like that.
That setup is awesome.
But when it comes to startup,it's whole different game and
whole different story.
And I always say to startupslike you don't need to work with
scale up, but when you choosestartup, like when you choose
tech partner, you need to choosecompany not by the number of
employees but by the expertisethat they have, because majority
(08:35):
of big, big players there arenot going to provide the
services that these smallerplayers can.
So that is a pretty interestingpoint.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, absolutely, adi .
I mean you've eliminated theunique need for startups to be
compared you know that need tobe compared to large enterprises
, especially when it comes totech partnership Start.
Sometimes startups oftenoperate within a limited number
of resources and really theyneed partners who offer not just
manpower but really can helptarget that expertise.
(09:06):
So can you walk us through howyou step into a startup's
journey to help them refinetheir ideas and really develop a
market ready type of MVP orminimum viable product?
What kind of, specifically,what type of strategic input and
direction do you provide toensure that they're not just
creating a product but the rightproduct for the right target
(09:30):
market?
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Good question.
Like that is more, like it'smore that performing that due
diligence at start.
It's about like if someonecomes to me and said, okay, I
have 100k for MVP, I would neverbuild the MVP for 100k because
that's that's stupid move forfrom from the tech company to do
(09:55):
.
And whenever someone asks me,like are you stupid?
I mean why don't you take allof the money that they are
offering?
It's, it's, we are in it for along term.
You know so, so, and I thinkthat every tech company should
be in the game for long term.
When I say long term, it says,okay, you have a 100k for a
budget, that's awesome, butlet's put it on drawing board
and let's see what kind offunctionalities are the core for
(10:17):
your product and let's build,build it with the smallest
amount of budget possible, likeit's it's 20, 30 or 40 or 50k,
um, and let's get it out there.
You know so.
So let's build that MVP, thatthat has that unique value
proposition that you need, thatyou, you, you Invision and then
show that to customers on board,new customers, take the
feedback and then use theremaining budget on, on,
(10:40):
upgrading the product to, to tobe accustomed to the needs of
the customers of your productright.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
I mean that's a very compelling approach to MVP
development, focusing on corevalue with an agile response to
to feedback.
Really interesting.
But reflecting on this, couldyou could you highlight or, you
know, just highlight a standoutproject where your methodology
really made a significant impact?
I'm interested Really in a casewhere, once you've launched,
(11:12):
the market response wasoverwhelmingly positive or even
game changer for some users.
Any examples that you can share, I mean that would be really
fascinating.
I mean even just just broadstrokes of what it was and its
success.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Yeah, it's, it's everyone is talking about.
Well, that wall factory, youknow so.
So it's it's it's really hardto to put it out there and and
that everyone says it's it's awow factor.
You know, like, if you, if youtake a look at the history, it's
only fraction, fraction of ofproducts made that that everyone
says it's it's wow, you know so.
So this is like these big tools, like big apps, like instagram,
(11:48):
tick tock, etc.
But Majority reality ismajority of the tools and
majority of the apps that arebeing billed are basically
resolving some, some specificneeds in the niche industries.
And if I tell you now,basically, like, majority of
your audience are going to say,okay, that that's nothing
special, you know.
But but Some of niche audienceare going to say from that
(12:11):
industry are going to say, okay,this is something that, that,
that, that that gets that wowfactor.
You know so.
For example, I know we did a lotof products from music industry
.
Coincidentally, you know, like,when you, when you build a
couple of products for foundersfrom music industry, they get,
they refer us to theircolleagues that are from the
same industry and it goes likethat.
(12:31):
So majority of these productsfrom music industry are kind of
trying to connect users, toconnect musicians all around the
globe.
Um, it's, it's I think it isthe effect of corona and
everything that happened, liketrying to work remotely, etc.
So so they figure that eventhey don't need to to be
in-house, uh, in order to recorda song or something like that.
(12:52):
So majority of these tools arekind of leaning towards
connecting people online so thatMultiple artists from multiple
countries can work online to torecord a song, for example, or
something like that.
So so these are kind of similartools like this that really are
potential big revolution in thefuture for, for for music
industry.
There are others like legal,legal Uh products that we have
(13:16):
built and that that are kind oftrying to to revolutionize the
legal world in a way that thatAll of these effect industries
that are kind of more offline,um, are trying to see that
benefit Online.
They they didn't have it needbefore with simple like building
the web presence, but now, withwith all of this artificial
(13:37):
intelligence and everything, uh,they truly do do see the the
benefit of that and they'retrying to build out tools more
and more that are basicallyleaning towards that artificial
intelligence and start Startingto exploit that in a way to to
enhance their, their business.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, that's interesting because I the the
shift in the startup ecosystempost pandemic Is an indeed a
profound one.
So, reflecting on this change,how have you really kind of
observed startups adapting tothese type of new work models?
Are they still gravitatingtoward physical offices, uh, for
(14:14):
that synergistic type of energy, um or is it more of a tangible
pivot where they're starting toembrace remote, remote setups
for long-term flexibility?
I mean, just In your view, hasthis impacted their pace of
innovation and their ability toscale?
I would think that you know youwould think of, especially
(14:34):
around AI that's playing moreand more and more of a
significant role in their typeof operations.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Yeah, that that's kind of awesome point, because
there's this big battle, if yousee, like that, that there are
people that are promoting likeremote and and they are like
Always saying like I would onlywork for remote companies, and
then on the other side there isa, there are companies that I
think like in office rules, youknow so, so we need to stay in
(15:03):
office in order to improve thequality of the work and
everything.
Uh, personally, I saw that kindof the trend was, as you said,
like in in corona.
It was the remote, obviouslybecause of the situation, global
situation, etc.
Um, and part of why the peoplewere enthusiastic about that is
that that is something new and Iand basically they were forced
(15:26):
to do that.
Nowadays I see the trend goingback into in office and
basically like people are reallyenjoying that socializing on
work and kind of being One meterto meter from another person
and kind of working together onsome specific tasks.
(15:47):
I feel that everything in workshould be a balance, you know.
So I don't like extremes ineither direction.
So I'm not big fan of remotefirst or remote only companies,
and not big fan of companiesthat are saying, okay, in office
is the way to work.
So I think the futuredefinitely lies in hybrid,
hybrid mode.
(16:07):
So basically, either allowingpeople that to love to work
couple of days from home, orgiving them an option to work
from home if they would like.
So I think that hybrid is theway that that is going to be in
the future.
Definitely there is a shift ofpeople that are coming back to
the office and kind of praisingabout that and loving that fact.
(16:28):
I think they're going back tothe office yeah, it's
interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
I mean navigating the shift in the workplace, I mean,
specifically, preferences postpandemic is fascinating.
I mean so with this return tooffice, you know this office
basis and the social aspectsthey bring.
I mean it sounds like thehybrid model is what you're
forcing as the future norm.
So switching gears back to a I.
(16:52):
As we look and we stand in 2024, there is a surge of a I tools
at our disposal and I'm reallycurious about the tangible
impact it has on startups.
So, with your finger on thepulse of product development,
are you observing that theseadvancements are truly
accelerating innovation andthey're giving startups that
(17:13):
cutting edge?
Or is there a sense ofoverwhelm, with startups
grappling with these type oftools and how they really
meaningfully integrate them intotheir product vision and their
overall operations?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yes, it's still that that kind of early period of
adoption.
You know, like in personally,in my industry for start, like
in the software developmentindustry, that that shift is
there, but but it's still earlyand there were there was a fear,
you know from for in the ingeneral, in software development
(17:48):
community, that I is going totake the jobs and that the I is
going to replace the softwaredevelopment, etc.
So it will never happen in myopinion.
But people that are kind of notusing these tools, that are
spawning everywhere, are goingto be deprecated, you know so.
(18:08):
So they would need to bereplaced with developers that
are using these tools, becausewhat will happen, in my opinion,
is also development, is thatProductivity is going to
increase a lot.
So.
So, for example, somethingthat's one one developer was
doing game five years ago infive years ago, one developer is
going to do the same stuff inin in the half day, in half time
(18:30):
, or something like that.
So that that that is that shiftthat is going to be there like
enhance productivity and that isthe core thing I think In terms
of startups.
They are using the tools.
There is kind of like two, twosides of the.
They're like one star thatcouple of times that we're
working, for example, are reallyusing the tools in their work
(18:52):
day and they tend to get lostbecause there is like a lot of
these tools.
You know, like every day, Ithink there is a bunch of new
tool that are spawningeverywhere, so they're getting
lost and productivity isn'tincreased when they are and
people don't have enough moneyto build it from scratch, so
they are what do you use?
(19:13):
Something that is already there, because of that data
sensitivity.
So I would say that there is amixture of everything.
So it will take some time, kindof, to resolve and see which
tool wins, which tool is thebest to use and, and Definitely
start with that are using thetools, are going to be in the
forefront and are going to havea big advantage on the
(19:35):
competition side.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah, I think it's clear that I truly is
revolutionizing productivity insoftware development and even
beyond that.
And essentially, I thinkstartups are at various stages,
are embracing these tools.
Probably some of them arereally using it to enhance their
work and I think others areprobably still very likely
hesitant.
But striking the right balancebetween leveraging a I and
(20:00):
maintaining some personalessence is really, I think,
unique to each startup brand.
I think that's what's the keyright there.
When you're advising startupsand communicating with investors
, how do you navigate thatconversation around using I
wisely without losing the humantouch that is often really the
(20:20):
hallmark of a startups brandidentity?
And in this context, could youalso elaborate on how startups
should way Bootstrapping againstseeking out funding on their
own?
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Yeah, yeah so.
So, in essence, bootstrappingis building product with your
own money or, to be more precise, is building a startup,
building your product withoutgiving activity to anyone.
So, basically, you have yourbootstrapped and you have your
own money that you're investing,while basically raising funds
(20:55):
or are looking for investors,means that there is someone on
board that has equity in yourproduct and they invest their
own money in building yourproduct.
So, basically, that is, like,at the core, the difference.
But, as I always say, likeOften question that I get from
from either from founders orfrom from a couple of investors
(21:19):
that we are working with as well, like they often ask us like
what do you think?
What is the bad, what is better?
You know, like there is twosides of the thing.
One one side of the thing isthat it's better to invest your
own money and keep the equity inyour product, but the bad side
of that is that if product fails, you lost your money, right?
If you get the investment, yougive out the equity.
(21:44):
So the bad side of the thing isthat, basically, someone else
is going to take earnings off ofyour product, right?
The good side of that is, ifproduct fails, you didn't lost
your, you lose your money.
Basically, the investors losttheir money, right.
So there is kind of the goodand bad side in all.
(22:05):
I would say that in order forcompany to scale up no pun
intended In order for company toscale up, it does need some
external investment at one point.
I would say that, as long asyou have that, as you start off,
(22:25):
founders don't have exact ideaof what they want to achieve,
and if the problem that they'reresolving is really problem and
the solution that they have isreally solution for the problems
for their customers, theyshould bootstrap until they find
that solution for the problems.
When they do find that and Imean building like simple MVP or
(22:48):
something like that when theydo that, that might be a good
time for start raising and startconnecting with potential
investors, et cetera.
The reason for that is thatit's a lot easier to get
investor when you can show thatyou have a clear path to product
market fit.
And the second reason is that,since you already have a product
, you already have made someprogress.
(23:09):
It's going to take less equitygiving away less equity for more
money.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
So what are some indicators that signal the need
for scaling up?
You mentioned scalability, andI think this is kind of where,
when startups start to progressto a certain stage, they often
reach a point where they mustexpand their operations.
I think this phase is kind ofreferred to as reaching velocity
.
So when you've observed thesestartups, what are the different
(23:38):
funding changes that they needrequired in scaling up?
What are the critical factorsthat really enable those
startups to achieve truescalability, whether through
secure funding or accessingresources, acquiring talent or
just other key elements thatreally help propel them to the
next level of growth?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yeah, startups are a tricky game At start.
When everyone starts, thefounders are doing everything by
themselves, right?
So all of everything I meanfrom marketing, sales, product
et cetera, everything that isdone by founders to founders or
through the funding team, let'ssay like that, gradually, as
(24:20):
startups is evolving and growing, all of these things should be
taken care by someone else.
Your, basically founders,should start slowly to delegate
things, and this is the criticalaspect.
So, in choosing the rightpeople, persons and right people
to delegate these importanttasks, so it's time to employ
(24:44):
someone to be CMO, for example,chief Marketing Officer.
You need to have someonereliant, that reliable that you
can.
You know that they're going toperform well.
Same goes for other positionslike CFO or CPO, et cetera.
So, basically, you need to havea great team and that is the
(25:06):
core to whom you can delegatethe responsibilities that you
have.
When it comes to the scaling upyour product.
If you have a good, solid team,it's easy to get the
organization inside of the team,it's easy to get that planning,
it's easy to prepare thatinfrastructure for to overcome
(25:30):
everything that comes withscaling Huge number of users,
huge number of invoices, hugenumber of visibility towards
multiple clients, a lot ofcommunication with potential
clients and everything thatneeds to be handled correctly.
But having that right team forthat is the key.
(25:52):
Everyone is kind of obsessedwith the planning and
organization and I say that it'seasy easy to say it like that.
It's really easy to do that ifyou have the right team.
If you don't have the rightteam, every organization and
planning of work is going to betough to do.
And don't be afraid aboutemploying the wrong people, it
(26:14):
will happen inevitably.
It's about having a system thatbasically spots that there are
some bad performances out of theteam that can be replaced, that
must be replaced.
So that is the key.
So to have that kind of systemof responsibility inside of the
team that clearly states okay,this was your responsibility,
(26:34):
this wasn't done correctly, etcetera.
And then basically replacementcomes and everything is pretty
much resolved.
But in order to have that youneed to have a capable majority
of the team and have that systemin place.
And I say, like organization,everything comes naturally with
the right thing.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's definitely a great bit
of wisdom.
So two questions before weround out our segment for the
day.
My first question is just inyour opinion, how do you start
to see AI transforming that joblandscape for software
developers and startup?
I know you mentioned it's notgonna eliminate jobs, but what
do you see as kind of thepivotal, that kind of that
(27:15):
watermark moment where it'sgoing to change kind of how
software developers work in astartup environment?
Speaker 3 (27:24):
No big change comes overnight.
So when Chagy Pity was releasedit was a boom, but nothing
changed overnight.
No one lost their job overnight.
It is going to be gradualprocess.
If you take a look like forsoftware developers, it's they
cannot.
(27:44):
The productivity of softwaredevelopment has increased
already with these AI tools,like internally in scale up.
We are using them, but it's notlike 40 or 50% increase in
productivity.
It's more like 10 to 20%increase by using these tools.
But in a way it's not going tocome overnight.
But the core thing is thatpeople need to understand that
(28:08):
when I say people, it's softwaredevelopers and need to
understand that the job that wehave done for decade is going to
be revolutionized in a way thatit's going to be changed and
it's going to be.
We need to start using thesetools in order to increase the
productivity, increase theefficiency of the code, increase
the speed of writing the code,et cetera.
(28:30):
And, as I say, like if you'renot using it, it's not that in a
year you're going to lose yourjob, but this is going to be a
gradual process.
So more or less in the next fewyears we might see even in job
ads there that there is arequirement that people are
familiar with these AI toolsthat are writing the code and
(28:50):
reproducing the code andtroubleshooting the code and
everything.
So this is gradual process, butI feel that at this point the
cleverest of software developersare going to understand that
this change is coming and thatthey're going to be willing to
try new things and try to see ifthey can increase their own
productivity by using these AItools and staying up to trends.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yes, that's the key right there is being able to
stay up to date.
I know that things move andchange and evolve so rapidly
that the pace of innovationcomes out so quickly.
I think that the difficulty issome software developers are
looking to future proof theircareers in the form of AI.
So kind of given that context,if you were to speak to a group
(29:36):
of software developers, whatadvice would you give them about
how they can still continue tokeep learning and upskilling in
this rapid pace, just becausethings are just coming out so
fast?
How can they hyper focus onjust staying focused on being
software developers with wheneverything's being thrown at
them?
What advice would you givethose young kids?
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Yeah, that advice never changes.
I always advise everyone whenthey're starting their career
like focus on single developmentprogramming language and that
language needs to be somethingthat's like a core long problem
in the language.
I don't want to be too techy,but if someone starts off as a
(30:19):
software developer and theystart using a React as a
JavaScript framework, that'spretty short-sighted.
You know, like if you'reproficient in React, that's cool
for the start and for now, butwhat is going to happen in a few
years?
Is React going to be popular ornot?
So it's going to be an issuefor them to shift from to
another language and everythingand to another framework.
(30:39):
But if you get that coreknowledge, understanding like
starting with some basiclanguage, like core language,
like Java or JavaScript orsomething like that
understanding that concept ofsoftware development, how
everything is code, how code iswritten, what code does, etc.
Understanding one programminglanguage in details really opens
(31:02):
up the perspective and it'sreally easy for developers to
shift to another programminglanguage.
A majority of people that I workwith that are really proficient
in one language.
It's a matter of a few months toswitch to another programming
language and they are writingthe perfect code in that
language as well.
And regarding the AI tools forjunior developers, I would say
(31:23):
don't bother with that when youstart a career, because AI tools
are great assistance to at themoment for a bit more senior
developers or developers thatare able to write their own code
For junior developers, they aregoing to be lost in that level
of code that is being generatedby AI.
It's like something is AI toolswriting the code that they
(31:49):
don't understand.
So you need to understand whatthe tool is writing.
So in order to do that, youneed to be proficient with the
code.
You need to understand the codeand everything.
So I would say, when you'restarting, choose the core
language, learn it in detailsand then it's really easy to
even exploit these AI tools orshift to another programming
language if you would like, etc.
So that is the advice thatstood there for, I think, less
(32:11):
decade or so.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Well, truly fascinating, so, adi.
So, as we wrap up, as we bringthings to a close, I would love
to hear your final thoughts onwhere you see startups
integrating AI into the future.
What's your vision for the nextwave of innovation in this
space?
What are you looking for?
Speaker 3 (32:31):
In terms of innovation.
It's really hard to predict,you know.
So it's like we have a big leapwith LLMS today.
A big question is going to behow to truly innovate with LLMS
in whole set of industries thatwe have today, and it's
something that's really hard todo.
(32:55):
It's hard to predict becauseevery industry is going to have
their own revolution in terms ofthe AI, so it's hard to predict
for each industry.
In general, I think that we hada breakthrough.
Llms are there.
It's more a matter of questionhow to implement that or how to
reuse that technology inspecific industry.
(33:17):
Technology movers like myselfare not going to be able to do
that on their own, so in orderto do that correctly, we are
going to need industry experts,you know.
So if we are building a toolfor the music industry, we are
going to need industry expertsfrom from the music industry.
If you're doing that for alegal industry, you're going to
(33:37):
need expert from legal industry,etc.
So it's more going to be acooperation between tech
companies, as it always was,with industry experts, and I
feel that at this moment, likethe biggest benefit that, in
general, ai is going to bring isa fast, fast prototyping in a
(33:58):
way that you can really spin offa lot of ideas in a shorter
amount of time and see if theywork.
You know so, before that you hadthree or four months basically
of building the MVPs, seeing ifthat will work.
I think that nowadays we areclosing the gap and kind of we
are trying to get something outthere in a few months or month
(34:18):
or two and spinning off multipleideas and seeing if they get
traction.
If they get traction, then wecan build it up and basically
build a proper code and properproduct.
And I feel that is the biggestadvantage that at the moment AI
is going to produce, like givingthat flexibility to founders to
test a lot of ideas in ashorter amount of time, see what
(34:38):
works and then double down onthat idea.
But it's going to be definitelyinteresting to see if what kind
of revolution to a specificindustry AI is going to bring,
and I think that's really reallyhard to predict.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
I wish we had a crystal ball so we can predict
right, so that way we can startbetting on the future.
Atty it's been an absolutepleasure having you on the Tech
Travels podcast.
Your insights and experiencesare really invaluable to our
listeners and I'm sure they'regoing to walk away with some new
perspectives and probably bebuilding some successful startup
(35:14):
and tech ventures on their own.
Thanks for sharing your timeand, when you're wisdom, with us
today.
It's much appreciated, thankyou.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Anytime, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Steve, thank you very much.
Until next time.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Yeah, thanks, bye, bye.
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