August 6, 2024 • 24 mins
In this episode, we talk to Hannah Tackett about her passion project on preventing burnout, specifically in the tech industry. Hannah shares her personal experience with burnout and discusses the importance of creating boundaries and finding a balance in a constantly connected world. We explore the societal pressures that contribute to burnout, the need for intentional downtime, and how to redefine productivity and success in our careers and personal lives.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Tectastic, where we navigate theintersection of technology and business,
uncovering innovations that redefine our world.
Hannah, I wanna say thank you for coming on.
It's fantastic.
It is lovely to have you here.
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here.
So you're you have a passion project aroundhelping people avoid burnout and, specifically,
(00:24):
burnout from tech.
And it's something that I personally veryconscious of because I'm constantly surrounded
by it, and I've made some pretty severe lifechoices to help me not burn out because I felt
it coming.
But this is a passion project to yours.
You have advice for people on this.
You made changes in your own life about it.
Tell me about, like, finding your passion hereand what you're doing about it.
(00:46):
Absolutely.
So this all started, with me burning out,surprise.
So, yeah, so back in, I think it was 2017, Ihit a wall.
I was working full time in tech, and I had, youknow, young children under the age of three.
And, I just I couldn't get out of bed.
I couldn't get out of bed for a month, and Ididn't know why go to the doctors, go to the
(01:06):
test done, and everything came back.
And they're like, you're fine, except for that,you know, you're not getting up.
So I was just completely fried.
And it frightened me because I had worked hardto get into this career.
I didn't wanna lose my job because, like,wasn't showing up for it.
I cared.
I just didn't care because I was pride.
I didn't wanna not be able to show up as themoment I wanted to be for my kids because I
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have no energy.
I didn't wanna lose my marriage because was extoo exhausted to give anything.
So I felt like I had really important things onthe line that I had to shift my approach to
life, and I made ending burnout, my number onepriority, and it took a while, but I did turn
it around without quitting my job, withoutburning down my career.
And in the process I learned that, you know,I've met so many other women who have lost
(01:50):
their careers, their health, their marriages,who've missed years of their children's lives
because they were so fried that they felt likethey had have to give.
So they just walked away in one way or another.
And so I feel like it's kind of I feel calledor, like, motivated to help others understand
that you can end burnout You don't have todredge your job.
You don't have to hate getting up in themorning.
(02:10):
You don't have to go through life, feeling likeyour soul is being sucked out of your body.
It can be stopped.
It can be turned around.
You don't even have to quit your job.
So that is that's why I'm why I'm here and whyI'm excited to share.
There's a related topic here that my wife and Italk about it a little bit.
I'm just open my eyes to it, at least.
I'm very, very focused on the businesses fullyabsorbed in that which puts a lot of emotional
(02:32):
mental burden on her for all the things thataren't work, like, figuring out grocery for the
week or, you know, just the the basic thingsthat you have to do in life.
Also, she tends to be more of a planner than Iam just naturally, but she cares more about the
details, whereas I'm tend to be more about,we'll figure it out.
I I would say that I I hate assigning anythingto gender specific, like, norms, but there does
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seem to be more women have had to take on thatrole in relationships.
They're the caretakers that nurtures in mostrelationships.
And whether that's, societal or what, is truethat that happens a lot.
And that cannot help with burnout.
I mean, it's just one more thing gotta carryand worry about.
Mhmm.
You are absolutely correct.
(03:16):
And I I think that's just why women arereporting Vernette in higher numbers.
And I think it's exactly that.
It's that second shift.
It's that 3rd shift.
It's, I think it's gotten better.
Obviously, you know, everything, every decade,things shifting a little bit shifting a little
bit, but I think statistically most women doend up with the role of household manager and
care provider.
(03:36):
Whether that's a children of or of theirparents or, you know, maintaining those family
ties, they end up in that role, whether they'regood at it or not, It just kinda defaults to
that.
Not always, not always, but many times it does.
And, yeah, so that does contribute to the neveroff.
You feel like you never get time for yourself.
You never get time to invest in your ownhealth.
(03:57):
And I think that in combination with, you know,I work with a lot of people who are in tech,
the never ending aspect of the job, like, youknow, if you're working with people across, you
know, in, in India or in Europe, that day neverends, right?
It's, you're always on.
You've got meetings that AM, you've gotmeetings at 9 pm.
Like, how do you create a life with that?
And I think that that's a really poignantconversation to have.
(04:19):
It's at this point in our lives where, I think,tech use is increasing.
And I think AI is gonna have a big impact onhow it just kind of permeates every aspect of
our lives.
We're not there yet.
Early days.
But, yeah, so I think having conversationsaround how to intentionally design your life in
a way that fills you as a human being as acomplete human being, not just a head on a body
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who's working and working and working andgetting through all the checklists every single
day, but gives you you know, that white spaceand margin and pre brings that back into your
life.
We've talked about, before we startedrecording, similar changes we've both made, are
slight differences, but very similar, right,we're both in technology and roles.
We both have been surrounded by it for a while.
(05:01):
I tend to think of my cell phone or anythingthat somebody can reach me, at a digital leash.
It's the thing that holds me back to whoever'spulling on the leash.
And when you're running a business and you'vegot employees, all of them have that leash.
And, if you got customers, they all have reach.
And so I've very intentionally made my lifesuch that the moment I decide I'm not working,
(05:26):
there is no way to get ahold of me.
I am unavailable, and it is the only thing thatstops that problem from being 20 fourseven
because I've literally had teams in India callme at 2 in the morning, and it was critical.
And there's no way I could say no.
Mhmm.
Yes.
I've had the Christmas Eve calls, you know,like, the the never ending aspect of working in
(05:47):
tech.
But, and what you've done is exactly what needsto happen, whether you're the boss or the
employee or wherever wherever your role havinga clear definition of on and off and having
that be respected is critical.
So, yes, I know, you know, in my ownnegotiations, I said, you know, from these
hours to this hours is sacred time I'm spendingtime with my family.
(06:08):
I'm flexible pretty much around the clock,otherwise.
But with periods where I when I take a break, Itake a break.
I leave my phone in the car when I go for ahike, you know, I'm not taking it with me.
And I'm I did intentionally, like you said, Imoved to an area where there's a lot of wifi
gaps.
So if I wanna step away, it's actually prettyeasy.
I just need to go for a hike, and it's hard toreach me.
(06:29):
And that was done with intention.
Had been living in a city and working in a waywhere I was just always on.
And I felt like I always had to be on.
I felt like people affected it.
I felt like that was the norm.
And in the culture, the company that I was atthe time, it was, like, it was an always on
culture.
It was a, constant visibility, sort of asituation, and, you know, different cultures
and different companies, either honor or don'thonor that work life boundaries.
(06:54):
You know, because you're setting a line, right,you're putting up a wall.
You're like, I'm on or I'm off.
And, I think as leaders, because I know a lotof, or your listeners are in leadership or even
starting your own company, you get to definethat.
You don't have to be at the whim of you know,being a in a reactive space, you're in a
position of creation.
You're in a position where you can define thatand defend that and create that space and stand
(07:17):
for your employees.
And I think that is amazing.
I've seen it done successfully, and it makes abig difference in the culture and in the
productivity.
I've often said, like, when I was at largercompanies, when create that always on culture.
I said, this is a failure of leadership.
It is.
Right.
You do not do your best work when you'reexhausted or burned out.
You do your best when you're, you're relaxedand you've had time to consider and, you know,
(07:40):
you've got, clarity purpose.
And if we're not giving you a clarity purpose,and we're not giving you the space and the
resources to do your job.
Well, that's our fault.
So when we call you in on a Saturday, I failed.
Right.
Putting that on my, my leadership teams andputting that on myself really changed how we
approached it.
It was like, aren't we this bad at our jobsthat we need to call the team?
(08:02):
And that completely changes the dynamic.
Yes.
When I took on a management role, one of thethings that I was sure to do with my directs
was, you know, ask them on a scale of, youknow, 1 to 10.
One being your board falling asleep at yourdesk, 10 being your completely overwhelmed.
Your heads have got to explode.
Where are you?
And it was like a weekly check-in.
Where are you?
Where are you?
And when the team starts to rise up andeveryone's at an 8, 9, and it's not going down,
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then it's like, okay, if something needs toshift, we need either more resources, or we
need more time.
The one that I think most people failed tothink about, because most of those
conversations tend to be about more ofsomething, more time or more resources.
But the question I will always ask when I likehere is more is what can we do less of?
Yes.
Right.
Are there meetings that we don't need?
Are there tasks that we're doing that are notuseful.
(08:47):
And we have ways of evaluating that, of course.
You don't just say, I don't feel like doing it.
Okay.
Great.
What's the value it's providing?
If it's not greater than the effort being putin, we're not doing it.
Yes.
I love elimination.
It's one of my favorite things.
And it's the first thing I do whenever a taskcomes in.
Is does this have to be done?
Yeah.
Is this important?
Does this have to be done by us?
(09:09):
You know?
Like, can I get rid of this before I say yes?
Yeah.
Well, and one of the things that's alwaysbugged me about product leaders, and I am a
product leader myself as a founder you all justare is that it always is a game of edition.
I need to add more features.
I need to add more complexity to it.
And I'm like, for me, elegance is in thesimplicity of it.
(09:32):
Can I do the job better by taking somethingaway that isn't helping you do the job?
My least favorite tools are the ones I've usedfor the longest.
Like, I'm very, at the very, very beginning ofcomputer graphics, there was the commodore 64
had a wallet pad, which was drawing templateyou could use on it.
And all it was was you had some colors a littlebrush, and then you can use it just like a
(09:56):
paint palette almost.
And the closer the tools stay to thatsimplicity, they better they are to use.
You can add functionality without addingcomplexity.
But if you've used Photoshop for the last 30years, it went from a very easy to tool to one
you practically need a PhD in the tool to use.
And that's a mistake that in technology, wealways wanna add more and in our lives, that's
(10:21):
true too.
It's not so much my generation, but I, I donotice it a lot more with, you know, people
that are younger than me during the workforce.
And I recognize that that's because the cost ofliving has increased the ability to to buy a
house is decreased and wages haven't picked up.
There's almost this need just to maintain thestatus quo to have that additional source of
(10:44):
income, but not having that poetic time whereyour brain can dream and imagine and solve
problems on its own means that you're not asproductive as you would be if you just took
that time and he did nothing.
Go for a walk.
Turn the brain up.
There's a researcher at the University ofBritish Columbia in Canada, but He's
(11:05):
incorporated, like, Eastern philosophy,especially like ancient Chinese philosophy on
the idea of kind of I'm trying to remember thethe way that we talked about it, like, practice
makes perfect.
And if you don't do well, just keep tryingharder.
That's kind of the western ideal that comesfrom philosophy.
Easter philosophy is the opposite.
You wanna get to the state where you don't haveto try hard anymore.
(11:28):
Like, I don't make beautiful music by tryingreally hard to play.
I'm not a great tennis player because I'mtrying really hard to win.
I'm a great tennis player because it comesnaturally now because I practice it to the
point where I'm just in the zone, left flowstate.
You can't be in the flow state if you'reconstantly busy.
True.
That is such a point that you're making, theintentionality around doing less, both as a
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product designer or a leader or in your ownlife to prevent burnout is about think having a
really clear idea of what you're saying yes to.
So I think that's actually like the first stepup ending burnout is pursuing your yes.
You know, in a company, you know, as a leader,you have to get really clear on what are you
gonna be good at as a company, who are yougonna serve, get crystal clear, really tight,
(12:11):
In our personal lives to prevent burnout to endburnout, we have to get really clear about,
well, what matters to me?
What are my priorities?
Am I living in alignment with those priorities?
Am I pursuing my career in a way that is inalignment with what matters to me, am I on the
right projects?
And once you have a clear yes, crystal clear,tightly focused.
Then everything else becomes it becomes so mucheasier to say no to the things that are cool,
(12:35):
aren't gonna move you towards that, yes.
Yeah.
You know, because we all have shiny objectsyndrome.
We're humans, right?
It's it's it's in product leadership as youmentioned, but it's also in our lives.
So you
don't have to say yes to everything, but it getreally clear on what you are saying yes to.
And another thing that you mentioned that Ilove is that white space of life that used to
exist because I, you know, I grew up before thephone, before the interwebs, and there used to
(12:56):
be white space.
There used to be margin in our day.
And now there kind of isn't because we alwayshave access distractions, you know, if you're
in between meetings, if you're going to thebathroom, if you're in bed right before going
to sleep, What are you doing?
Most people are scrolling.
And I think we all are in tech.
I think we all have an understanding of whatscrolling does to the brain, but it is a and it
(13:20):
does cause or increase the likelihood ofanxiety and depression because of that pattern
of the dopamine releasing.
And so as far as just earn out in generalincreasing, I think that that's part of it, is
that we've lost the margin in our lives.
We've lost that white space.
Not only are we filling it with something thatcauses stress and anxiety, but we've lost that
white space where we used to be able tocomplete the stress cycle.
(13:43):
If you have time in between meetings, what areyou doing?
You're processing.
Going through the process of letting it go, ofletting it all sink in.
If you have enough time to go for a walk duringyour lunch break and say you're scrolling, but
if you go for a walk, that movement helps tocomplete this rest cycle so that you're not
carrying it with you, month after month, ormonth, year after year, and that results in, in
(14:03):
some cases, the expression of that is burnout,And then at night, of course, setting the lack
of sleep quality is huge.
And, staring at our phones is the big culpritbehind that.
So one of the things that you just said had meat the, I'm a Paul in Athens.
Like, I'm, I've been writing code since it'spretty young.
I've also been a painter and a sculptor since Iwas young and music and all the fun stuff.
(14:25):
But that's because I was introduced to allthose things and then get in time to explore
and play with them and get good enough that Iwas comfortable with it, but not a master at
any of them.
I my friends say that I say I'm the jack of alltrades master of none.
They're like, no.
You're the master of And I'm like, okay.
What after, like, I'm not, though.
You pick any one of those faces and not themaster.
(14:46):
I'm good.
Not great.
And I like being good, but not great.
I like because for me, what's interesting isthe exploration of how things can connect and
how I can create new things by grabbing a bitof this and a bit of this.
And there's a conference in Portland, Oregonevery year called Drop Code.
And it tends to be people that are both artistsand coders, like technologists.
(15:08):
And what they all have in common is thisconcept of poetic time where, you know, nobody
has a brilliant revelation while working hardat the computer.
They solved the hard problem when they're outon a walk, they're in the shower, or as our
product leader on my company said, He's got amagic lawnmower.
When he's sitting on it and he's doing hislawn, that's when all the insights happen.
(15:30):
Like, that's right.
It's when you're in that moment of not thinkingabout it that the clarity comes in because your
brain's not working hard to solve for it.
3 forming associations are occurring for poetrythat's written.
I love that.
I've watched it with my niece and my nephew.
I love them to death, but they're now in theirtwenties.
And they were raised with constantly having tobe doing something.
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They went from soccer practice to boy scoutsto, like, whatever it was the band and the next
thing, they they didn't have any free time.
And in school, early, they got rid of recess.
The one time in the day that that the stress asitting at a desk and being patient as a child
full of energy and and not really knowing howdoes it still.
But one time, you get to release all thatstress and potentially have that white space
(16:18):
brain time was removed.
Mhmm.
Like, how are we doing this to ourselves?
Why are we allowing this to happen?
Because what we're doing is we're gonna createan entire society, people are full of anxiety
and incapable of accomplishing anything because
-But they're busy and they feel like they are.
Yeah.
Busy, the whole busy culture nonsense.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And I've seen that raising my own children, itis hard to be a working mom and not have your
(16:42):
kids constantly in a camp or in a thing.
Right?
You know, I do create space for boredom, andthey come and they complain.
I'm bored.
Like, my job's not to entertain you.
Don't play.
I bought you toys.
Should I take them away?
Are you gonna play with them or not?
Maybe I'm harsh.
But anyways, I do think that boredom isvaluable, and one of my guess, my priorities in
my own life.
And I set this as the priority after my burnoutbecause I do tend to be an ambitious person who
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is going up the next thing, and it has achecklist every single day.
Like, I'm very organized and driven.
But what I missed from, you know, if you thinkback to my childhood is I had time to wander.
I had time to wander through books, throughideas, through nature, I had steak to wander,
and then I had space to create.
So it was drawing, writing, and all these waysof expressing what had percolated and happened
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enmeshed in that time of wandering.
And so now wandering is high on my prioritylist as something that is a value in my life
that I am protecting and pursuing is time towander, space to wander.
That's fantastic.
The other thing that I noticed is, like theanxiety created by fear of failure.
Yes.
My opinion on that is you never learn if youdon't fail.
(17:52):
You, you can never succeed if you haven'tlearned and you can't learn if you haven't
failed.
I, I put a lot on social media because you seeeverybody else telling the glory moment, not
all the work that went to get there.
They're sharing our happiest, most exciting.
Like, a view of that is probably not even true.
That's what everybody's doing.
And so nobody feels like their own lives areliving up to that unless they have that wind
(18:17):
too.
And if they don't get it instantly, they feellike failure because I see everybody else
showing their wins.
And, I think that that's a huge detractor frompeople actually trying things and learning,
failing.
All of it.
And you need that playtime, that bike spacewhen you're able to explore that of any chance
that that.
And kind of going along with that with thebusyness and the hustle culture, as I've seen,
(18:39):
you know, the woman I work with, they areafraid.
I mean, they're showing up because they'reafraid.
They feel like they have to prove themselves.
They're constantly proving themselves.
They are on all the time on I'm because theyfeel like they need to be seen.
They are overcommitting themselves because theyfeel like they need to prove themselves.
They feel being busy is equal to being worthy.
And breaking that association and reframingthat is, you know, a big chore.
(19:03):
Like, it's a lot of work.
But it is so powerful when we realize thatwe're worthy because we are, and busyness is
not a badge of honor, and it's actually notmaking you more productive.
It's not good for your career, like focuses,deep work is.
Building strong relationships is.
But busyness for the sake of busyness beingseen for the sake of being seen is almost it's
coming out of a place of fear.
(19:25):
There's one more aspect I keep thinking about,and that's because the business I'm in is, I
think of modernization technology modernizationto the treadmill.
You can't get off of it because technology isevolving faster than our ability to implement
technology.
Right?
So every day that you modernize, you'veactually created debt debt because it's not
modern anymore.
(19:45):
And so everybody's on that cycle, and thatcycles accelerating, largely due to things like
AI.
Mhmm.
But it's always been fairly rapid.
I've been doing this for over 30 years now, Andduring that time, there's never been a moment
where you could feel like you were an expertbecause the incident you were an expert is
something that something wasn't worth doinganymore.
Yes.
Yes.
And I think that has a huge impact on peoplethat are in the technology space is that
(20:09):
there's no such thing as deep expertiseanymore.
You can't get comfortable with the status full,you have to constantly be learning and
adapting.
And the problem, though, is we are experts.
We are trusted to be deep experts.
How do you resolve that in your career and inyour personal life when it is evolved too fast
(20:29):
to keep up with.
You're expected to be the expert.
You can't because there's not enough time todevelop that expertise.
Most people spend more time.
They just throw everything they've got alltheir time into becoming something impossible
to become and burn out extraordinarily rapidlybecause of it.
I hear you.
I hear you.
It's something that I was thinking about back,I made a career shift from development into UX.
(20:52):
And part of my thinking was development is,like, you're on that never an intranial of
something new.
Whereas UX, you go deep into psychology.
It's about being an expert on humans and theirrelationship with tech.
You still have to stay modern.
You still have to stay current, but it's Ifound it more sustainable.
But as far as, like, what do you do, right, ifyou're supposed to be the expert at all times?
And I think the the answer is community that wecan't always pretend like we are to debentures
(21:18):
and everything, and I think that that's okay.
I think it's okay to say, I know this personover here, and I'm gonna leverage their
expertise.
I know this person over here, and I'm gonnaleverage their expertise.
We can do this together.
And then there's also, like, a almost like aseasonality, I feel like, to learning where you
lean in and you're just heads down, you'recranking, you're learning something new, and
then you lean out and let it process.
(21:40):
If you're always leaning in and the motivationis fear, like we talked about earlier, because
you're afraid of falling behind, because you'reafraid of someone looking down on you because
you're afraid of not being good enough, you'regonna burn out.
You're gonna you're gonna push yourself toofar, and the fear and then drag you down.
So I think being intentional is leaning in andintentional is leaning out and allowing, I
guess, like, the flow of technology growth justjust ride the waves.
(22:04):
You know, don't don't expect that you're goingto be ahead of the wave.
You will not be ahead of the wave.
Sometimes you're gonna fall off the wave, andthat's gonna be okay.
Let me okay.
Just get back up.
Everyone around you is doing the same thing.
Another way to approach it, and this is what Ithink our job as technologist is.
We tend to think of ourselves as The wizard ofOz, the man behind a curtain, when the Oz was
trying to, like, there's magic happening, andhe didn't want anybody to see how it was done.
(22:28):
And my view has always been that's not our job.
Our job is to help them make it be done.
Whether we show them how or not does notmatter, but that myth that magic exclusive to
us as magicians is just terrible for our, ourown well-being.
Show them how to learn because that's what wehave to do.
Even if it is just saying.
(22:48):
You know what?
I don't know the answer to that, but I'm gonnago find out, you know, would you like to come
along with me on that journey?
Right.
I think that's the most powerful thing to saybecause we're all learning right now.
We're all growing.
AIs happening faster than any of us can keep upwith.
Like, it's gonna be more and more like that.
Where it's a constant.
Well, it's all figured out.
I had it.
That was wonderful.
(23:08):
Thank you so much.
This was a great topic.
Thank you for having me.
This was fun.
And that's a wrap for this episode ofTectastic.
Wanna thank you personally for joining us andwe'll see you next time.
Until then, keep exploring and stay curious.
Thank you for listening.
If you are new here and enjoyed the content,please subscribe.
(23:30):
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And if you are a regular listener, thanks somuch for your continued support.
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Welcome to Tectastic, where we navigate theintersection of technology and business,
uncovering innovations that redefine our world.
Hannah, I wanna say thank you for coming on.
It's fantastic.
It is lovely to have you here.
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here.
So you're you have a passion project aroundhelping people avoid burnout and, specifically,
(00:24):
burnout from tech.
And it's something that I personally veryconscious of because I'm constantly surrounded
by it, and I've made some pretty severe lifechoices to help me not burn out because I felt
it coming.
But this is a passion project to yours.
You have advice for people on this.
You made changes in your own life about it.
Tell me about, like, finding your passion hereand what you're doing about it.
(00:46):
Absolutely.
So this all started, with me burning out,surprise.
So, yeah, so back in, I think it was 2017, Ihit a wall.
I was working full time in tech, and I had, youknow, young children under the age of three.
And, I just I couldn't get out of bed.
I couldn't get out of bed for a month, and Ididn't know why go to the doctors, go to the
(01:06):
test done, and everything came back.
And they're like, you're fine, except for that,you know, you're not getting up.
So I was just completely fried.
And it frightened me because I had worked hardto get into this career.
I didn't wanna lose my job because, like,wasn't showing up for it.
I cared.
I just didn't care because I was pride.
I didn't wanna not be able to show up as themoment I wanted to be for my kids because I
(01:26):
have no energy.
I didn't wanna lose my marriage because was extoo exhausted to give anything.
So I felt like I had really important things onthe line that I had to shift my approach to
life, and I made ending burnout, my number onepriority, and it took a while, but I did turn
it around without quitting my job, withoutburning down my career.
And in the process I learned that, you know,I've met so many other women who have lost
(01:50):
their careers, their health, their marriages,who've missed years of their children's lives
because they were so fried that they felt likethey had have to give.
So they just walked away in one way or another.
And so I feel like it's kind of I feel calledor, like, motivated to help others understand
that you can end burnout You don't have todredge your job.
You don't have to hate getting up in themorning.
(02:10):
You don't have to go through life, feeling likeyour soul is being sucked out of your body.
It can be stopped.
It can be turned around.
You don't even have to quit your job.
So that is that's why I'm why I'm here and whyI'm excited to share.
There's a related topic here that my wife and Italk about it a little bit.
I'm just open my eyes to it, at least.
I'm very, very focused on the businesses fullyabsorbed in that which puts a lot of emotional
(02:32):
mental burden on her for all the things thataren't work, like, figuring out grocery for the
week or, you know, just the the basic thingsthat you have to do in life.
Also, she tends to be more of a planner than Iam just naturally, but she cares more about the
details, whereas I'm tend to be more about,we'll figure it out.
I I would say that I I hate assigning anythingto gender specific, like, norms, but there does
(02:55):
seem to be more women have had to take on thatrole in relationships.
They're the caretakers that nurtures in mostrelationships.
And whether that's, societal or what, is truethat that happens a lot.
And that cannot help with burnout.
I mean, it's just one more thing gotta carryand worry about.
Mhmm.
You are absolutely correct.
(03:16):
And I I think that's just why women arereporting Vernette in higher numbers.
And I think it's exactly that.
It's that second shift.
It's that 3rd shift.
It's, I think it's gotten better.
Obviously, you know, everything, every decade,things shifting a little bit shifting a little
bit, but I think statistically most women doend up with the role of household manager and
care provider.
(03:36):
Whether that's a children of or of theirparents or, you know, maintaining those family
ties, they end up in that role, whether they'regood at it or not, It just kinda defaults to
that.
Not always, not always, but many times it does.
And, yeah, so that does contribute to the neveroff.
You feel like you never get time for yourself.
You never get time to invest in your ownhealth.
(03:57):
And I think that in combination with, you know,I work with a lot of people who are in tech,
the never ending aspect of the job, like, youknow, if you're working with people across, you
know, in, in India or in Europe, that day neverends, right?
It's, you're always on.
You've got meetings that AM, you've gotmeetings at 9 pm.
Like, how do you create a life with that?
And I think that that's a really poignantconversation to have.
(04:19):
It's at this point in our lives where, I think,tech use is increasing.
And I think AI is gonna have a big impact onhow it just kind of permeates every aspect of
our lives.
We're not there yet.
Early days.
But, yeah, so I think having conversationsaround how to intentionally design your life in
a way that fills you as a human being as acomplete human being, not just a head on a body
(04:39):
who's working and working and working andgetting through all the checklists every single
day, but gives you you know, that white spaceand margin and pre brings that back into your
life.
We've talked about, before we startedrecording, similar changes we've both made, are
slight differences, but very similar, right,we're both in technology and roles.
We both have been surrounded by it for a while.
(05:01):
I tend to think of my cell phone or anythingthat somebody can reach me, at a digital leash.
It's the thing that holds me back to whoever'spulling on the leash.
And when you're running a business and you'vegot employees, all of them have that leash.
And, if you got customers, they all have reach.
And so I've very intentionally made my lifesuch that the moment I decide I'm not working,
(05:26):
there is no way to get ahold of me.
I am unavailable, and it is the only thing thatstops that problem from being 20 fourseven
because I've literally had teams in India callme at 2 in the morning, and it was critical.
And there's no way I could say no.
Mhmm.
Yes.
I've had the Christmas Eve calls, you know,like, the the never ending aspect of working in
(05:47):
tech.
But, and what you've done is exactly what needsto happen, whether you're the boss or the
employee or wherever wherever your role havinga clear definition of on and off and having
that be respected is critical.
So, yes, I know, you know, in my ownnegotiations, I said, you know, from these
hours to this hours is sacred time I'm spendingtime with my family.
(06:08):
I'm flexible pretty much around the clock,otherwise.
But with periods where I when I take a break, Itake a break.
I leave my phone in the car when I go for ahike, you know, I'm not taking it with me.
And I'm I did intentionally, like you said, Imoved to an area where there's a lot of wifi
gaps.
So if I wanna step away, it's actually prettyeasy.
I just need to go for a hike, and it's hard toreach me.
(06:29):
And that was done with intention.
Had been living in a city and working in a waywhere I was just always on.
And I felt like I always had to be on.
I felt like people affected it.
I felt like that was the norm.
And in the culture, the company that I was atthe time, it was, like, it was an always on
culture.
It was a, constant visibility, sort of asituation, and, you know, different cultures
and different companies, either honor or don'thonor that work life boundaries.
(06:54):
You know, because you're setting a line, right,you're putting up a wall.
You're like, I'm on or I'm off.
And, I think as leaders, because I know a lotof, or your listeners are in leadership or even
starting your own company, you get to definethat.
You don't have to be at the whim of you know,being a in a reactive space, you're in a
position of creation.
You're in a position where you can define thatand defend that and create that space and stand
(07:17):
for your employees.
And I think that is amazing.
I've seen it done successfully, and it makes abig difference in the culture and in the
productivity.
I've often said, like, when I was at largercompanies, when create that always on culture.
I said, this is a failure of leadership.
It is.
Right.
You do not do your best work when you'reexhausted or burned out.
You do your best when you're, you're relaxedand you've had time to consider and, you know,
(07:40):
you've got, clarity purpose.
And if we're not giving you a clarity purpose,and we're not giving you the space and the
resources to do your job.
Well, that's our fault.
So when we call you in on a Saturday, I failed.
Right.
Putting that on my, my leadership teams andputting that on myself really changed how we
approached it.
It was like, aren't we this bad at our jobsthat we need to call the team?
(08:02):
And that completely changes the dynamic.
Yes.
When I took on a management role, one of thethings that I was sure to do with my directs
was, you know, ask them on a scale of, youknow, 1 to 10.
One being your board falling asleep at yourdesk, 10 being your completely overwhelmed.
Your heads have got to explode.
Where are you?
And it was like a weekly check-in.
Where are you?
Where are you?
And when the team starts to rise up andeveryone's at an 8, 9, and it's not going down,
(08:25):
then it's like, okay, if something needs toshift, we need either more resources, or we
need more time.
The one that I think most people failed tothink about, because most of those
conversations tend to be about more ofsomething, more time or more resources.
But the question I will always ask when I likehere is more is what can we do less of?
Yes.
Right.
Are there meetings that we don't need?
Are there tasks that we're doing that are notuseful.
(08:47):
And we have ways of evaluating that, of course.
You don't just say, I don't feel like doing it.
Okay.
Great.
What's the value it's providing?
If it's not greater than the effort being putin, we're not doing it.
Yes.
I love elimination.
It's one of my favorite things.
And it's the first thing I do whenever a taskcomes in.
Is does this have to be done?
Yeah.
Is this important?
Does this have to be done by us?
(09:09):
You know?
Like, can I get rid of this before I say yes?
Yeah.
Well, and one of the things that's alwaysbugged me about product leaders, and I am a
product leader myself as a founder you all justare is that it always is a game of edition.
I need to add more features.
I need to add more complexity to it.
And I'm like, for me, elegance is in thesimplicity of it.
(09:32):
Can I do the job better by taking somethingaway that isn't helping you do the job?
My least favorite tools are the ones I've usedfor the longest.
Like, I'm very, at the very, very beginning ofcomputer graphics, there was the commodore 64
had a wallet pad, which was drawing templateyou could use on it.
And all it was was you had some colors a littlebrush, and then you can use it just like a
(09:56):
paint palette almost.
And the closer the tools stay to thatsimplicity, they better they are to use.
You can add functionality without addingcomplexity.
But if you've used Photoshop for the last 30years, it went from a very easy to tool to one
you practically need a PhD in the tool to use.
And that's a mistake that in technology, wealways wanna add more and in our lives, that's
(10:21):
true too.
It's not so much my generation, but I, I donotice it a lot more with, you know, people
that are younger than me during the workforce.
And I recognize that that's because the cost ofliving has increased the ability to to buy a
house is decreased and wages haven't picked up.
There's almost this need just to maintain thestatus quo to have that additional source of
(10:44):
income, but not having that poetic time whereyour brain can dream and imagine and solve
problems on its own means that you're not asproductive as you would be if you just took
that time and he did nothing.
Go for a walk.
Turn the brain up.
There's a researcher at the University ofBritish Columbia in Canada, but He's
(11:05):
incorporated, like, Eastern philosophy,especially like ancient Chinese philosophy on
the idea of kind of I'm trying to remember thethe way that we talked about it, like, practice
makes perfect.
And if you don't do well, just keep tryingharder.
That's kind of the western ideal that comesfrom philosophy.
Easter philosophy is the opposite.
You wanna get to the state where you don't haveto try hard anymore.
(11:28):
Like, I don't make beautiful music by tryingreally hard to play.
I'm not a great tennis player because I'mtrying really hard to win.
I'm a great tennis player because it comesnaturally now because I practice it to the
point where I'm just in the zone, left flowstate.
You can't be in the flow state if you'reconstantly busy.
True.
That is such a point that you're making, theintentionality around doing less, both as a
(11:50):
product designer or a leader or in your ownlife to prevent burnout is about think having a
really clear idea of what you're saying yes to.
So I think that's actually like the first stepup ending burnout is pursuing your yes.
You know, in a company, you know, as a leader,you have to get really clear on what are you
gonna be good at as a company, who are yougonna serve, get crystal clear, really tight,
(12:11):
In our personal lives to prevent burnout to endburnout, we have to get really clear about,
well, what matters to me?
What are my priorities?
Am I living in alignment with those priorities?
Am I pursuing my career in a way that is inalignment with what matters to me, am I on the
right projects?
And once you have a clear yes, crystal clear,tightly focused.
Then everything else becomes it becomes so mucheasier to say no to the things that are cool,
(12:35):
aren't gonna move you towards that, yes.
Yeah.
You know, because we all have shiny objectsyndrome.
We're humans, right?
It's it's it's in product leadership as youmentioned, but it's also in our lives.
So you
don't have to say yes to everything, but it getreally clear on what you are saying yes to.
And another thing that you mentioned that Ilove is that white space of life that used to
exist because I, you know, I grew up before thephone, before the interwebs, and there used to
(12:56):
be white space.
There used to be margin in our day.
And now there kind of isn't because we alwayshave access distractions, you know, if you're
in between meetings, if you're going to thebathroom, if you're in bed right before going
to sleep, What are you doing?
Most people are scrolling.
And I think we all are in tech.
I think we all have an understanding of whatscrolling does to the brain, but it is a and it
(13:20):
does cause or increase the likelihood ofanxiety and depression because of that pattern
of the dopamine releasing.
And so as far as just earn out in generalincreasing, I think that that's part of it, is
that we've lost the margin in our lives.
We've lost that white space.
Not only are we filling it with something thatcauses stress and anxiety, but we've lost that
white space where we used to be able tocomplete the stress cycle.
(13:43):
If you have time in between meetings, what areyou doing?
You're processing.
Going through the process of letting it go, ofletting it all sink in.
If you have enough time to go for a walk duringyour lunch break and say you're scrolling, but
if you go for a walk, that movement helps tocomplete this rest cycle so that you're not
carrying it with you, month after month, ormonth, year after year, and that results in, in
(14:03):
some cases, the expression of that is burnout,And then at night, of course, setting the lack
of sleep quality is huge.
And, staring at our phones is the big culpritbehind that.
So one of the things that you just said had meat the, I'm a Paul in Athens.
Like, I'm, I've been writing code since it'spretty young.
I've also been a painter and a sculptor since Iwas young and music and all the fun stuff.
(14:25):
But that's because I was introduced to allthose things and then get in time to explore
and play with them and get good enough that Iwas comfortable with it, but not a master at
any of them.
I my friends say that I say I'm the jack of alltrades master of none.
They're like, no.
You're the master of And I'm like, okay.
What after, like, I'm not, though.
You pick any one of those faces and not themaster.
(14:46):
I'm good.
Not great.
And I like being good, but not great.
I like because for me, what's interesting isthe exploration of how things can connect and
how I can create new things by grabbing a bitof this and a bit of this.
And there's a conference in Portland, Oregonevery year called Drop Code.
And it tends to be people that are both artistsand coders, like technologists.
(15:08):
And what they all have in common is thisconcept of poetic time where, you know, nobody
has a brilliant revelation while working hardat the computer.
They solved the hard problem when they're outon a walk, they're in the shower, or as our
product leader on my company said, He's got amagic lawnmower.
When he's sitting on it and he's doing hislawn, that's when all the insights happen.
(15:30):
Like, that's right.
It's when you're in that moment of not thinkingabout it that the clarity comes in because your
brain's not working hard to solve for it.
3 forming associations are occurring for poetrythat's written.
I love that.
I've watched it with my niece and my nephew.
I love them to death, but they're now in theirtwenties.
And they were raised with constantly having tobe doing something.
(15:54):
They went from soccer practice to boy scoutsto, like, whatever it was the band and the next
thing, they they didn't have any free time.
And in school, early, they got rid of recess.
The one time in the day that that the stress asitting at a desk and being patient as a child
full of energy and and not really knowing howdoes it still.
But one time, you get to release all thatstress and potentially have that white space
(16:18):
brain time was removed.
Mhmm.
Like, how are we doing this to ourselves?
Why are we allowing this to happen?
Because what we're doing is we're gonna createan entire society, people are full of anxiety
and incapable of accomplishing anything because
-But they're busy and they feel like they are.
Yeah.
Busy, the whole busy culture nonsense.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And I've seen that raising my own children, itis hard to be a working mom and not have your
(16:42):
kids constantly in a camp or in a thing.
Right?
You know, I do create space for boredom, andthey come and they complain.
I'm bored.
Like, my job's not to entertain you.
Don't play.
I bought you toys.
Should I take them away?
Are you gonna play with them or not?
Maybe I'm harsh.
But anyways, I do think that boredom isvaluable, and one of my guess, my priorities in
my own life.
And I set this as the priority after my burnoutbecause I do tend to be an ambitious person who
(17:06):
is going up the next thing, and it has achecklist every single day.
Like, I'm very organized and driven.
But what I missed from, you know, if you thinkback to my childhood is I had time to wander.
I had time to wander through books, throughideas, through nature, I had steak to wander,
and then I had space to create.
So it was drawing, writing, and all these waysof expressing what had percolated and happened
(17:30):
enmeshed in that time of wandering.
And so now wandering is high on my prioritylist as something that is a value in my life
that I am protecting and pursuing is time towander, space to wander.
That's fantastic.
The other thing that I noticed is, like theanxiety created by fear of failure.
Yes.
My opinion on that is you never learn if youdon't fail.
(17:52):
You, you can never succeed if you haven'tlearned and you can't learn if you haven't
failed.
I, I put a lot on social media because you seeeverybody else telling the glory moment, not
all the work that went to get there.
They're sharing our happiest, most exciting.
Like, a view of that is probably not even true.
That's what everybody's doing.
And so nobody feels like their own lives areliving up to that unless they have that wind
(18:17):
too.
And if they don't get it instantly, they feellike failure because I see everybody else
showing their wins.
And, I think that that's a huge detractor frompeople actually trying things and learning,
failing.
All of it.
And you need that playtime, that bike spacewhen you're able to explore that of any chance
that that.
And kind of going along with that with thebusyness and the hustle culture, as I've seen,
(18:39):
you know, the woman I work with, they areafraid.
I mean, they're showing up because they'reafraid.
They feel like they have to prove themselves.
They're constantly proving themselves.
They are on all the time on I'm because theyfeel like they need to be seen.
They are overcommitting themselves because theyfeel like they need to prove themselves.
They feel being busy is equal to being worthy.
And breaking that association and reframingthat is, you know, a big chore.
(19:03):
Like, it's a lot of work.
But it is so powerful when we realize thatwe're worthy because we are, and busyness is
not a badge of honor, and it's actually notmaking you more productive.
It's not good for your career, like focuses,deep work is.
Building strong relationships is.
But busyness for the sake of busyness beingseen for the sake of being seen is almost it's
coming out of a place of fear.
(19:25):
There's one more aspect I keep thinking about,and that's because the business I'm in is, I
think of modernization technology modernizationto the treadmill.
You can't get off of it because technology isevolving faster than our ability to implement
technology.
Right?
So every day that you modernize, you'veactually created debt debt because it's not
modern anymore.
(19:45):
And so everybody's on that cycle, and thatcycles accelerating, largely due to things like
AI.
Mhmm.
But it's always been fairly rapid.
I've been doing this for over 30 years now, Andduring that time, there's never been a moment
where you could feel like you were an expertbecause the incident you were an expert is
something that something wasn't worth doinganymore.
Yes.
Yes.
And I think that has a huge impact on peoplethat are in the technology space is that
(20:09):
there's no such thing as deep expertiseanymore.
You can't get comfortable with the status full,you have to constantly be learning and
adapting.
And the problem, though, is we are experts.
We are trusted to be deep experts.
How do you resolve that in your career and inyour personal life when it is evolved too fast
(20:29):
to keep up with.
You're expected to be the expert.
You can't because there's not enough time todevelop that expertise.
Most people spend more time.
They just throw everything they've got alltheir time into becoming something impossible
to become and burn out extraordinarily rapidlybecause of it.
I hear you.
I hear you.
It's something that I was thinking about back,I made a career shift from development into UX.
(20:52):
And part of my thinking was development is,like, you're on that never an intranial of
something new.
Whereas UX, you go deep into psychology.
It's about being an expert on humans and theirrelationship with tech.
You still have to stay modern.
You still have to stay current, but it's Ifound it more sustainable.
But as far as, like, what do you do, right, ifyou're supposed to be the expert at all times?
And I think the the answer is community that wecan't always pretend like we are to debentures
(21:18):
and everything, and I think that that's okay.
I think it's okay to say, I know this personover here, and I'm gonna leverage their
expertise.
I know this person over here, and I'm gonnaleverage their expertise.
We can do this together.
And then there's also, like, a almost like aseasonality, I feel like, to learning where you
lean in and you're just heads down, you'recranking, you're learning something new, and
then you lean out and let it process.
(21:40):
If you're always leaning in and the motivationis fear, like we talked about earlier, because
you're afraid of falling behind, because you'reafraid of someone looking down on you because
you're afraid of not being good enough, you'regonna burn out.
You're gonna you're gonna push yourself toofar, and the fear and then drag you down.
So I think being intentional is leaning in andintentional is leaning out and allowing, I
guess, like, the flow of technology growth justjust ride the waves.
(22:04):
You know, don't don't expect that you're goingto be ahead of the wave.
You will not be ahead of the wave.
Sometimes you're gonna fall off the wave, andthat's gonna be okay.
Let me okay.
Just get back up.
Everyone around you is doing the same thing.
Another way to approach it, and this is what Ithink our job as technologist is.
We tend to think of ourselves as The wizard ofOz, the man behind a curtain, when the Oz was
trying to, like, there's magic happening, andhe didn't want anybody to see how it was done.
(22:28):
And my view has always been that's not our job.
Our job is to help them make it be done.
Whether we show them how or not does notmatter, but that myth that magic exclusive to
us as magicians is just terrible for our, ourown well-being.
Show them how to learn because that's what wehave to do.
Even if it is just saying.
(22:48):
You know what?
I don't know the answer to that, but I'm gonnago find out, you know, would you like to come
along with me on that journey?
Right.
I think that's the most powerful thing to saybecause we're all learning right now.
We're all growing.
AIs happening faster than any of us can keep upwith.
Like, it's gonna be more and more like that.
Where it's a constant.
Well, it's all figured out.
I had it.
That was wonderful.
(23:08):
Thank you so much.
This was a great topic.
Thank you for having me.
This was fun.
And that's a wrap for this episode ofTectastic.
Wanna thank you personally for joining us andwe'll see you next time.
Until then, keep exploring and stay curious.
Thank you for listening.
If you are new here and enjoyed the content,please subscribe.
(23:30):
It really helps us out.
And if you are a regular listener, thanks somuch for your continued support.
O overwhelmed by tech debt.
Discover Vala AI, the solution to techchallenges with the simplicity of a click, No
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(23:52):
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