Pour yourself a glass of Eagle Rare and join us for a fascinating dive into the invisible technology that's changing the whiskey world forever.
Counterfeit whiskey has plagued collectors and enthusiasts for years – empty bottles refilled with cheap spirits, fake seals carefully applied, and unsuspecting buyers paying thousands for fraudulent products. Now, Buffalo Trace, Johnnie Walker, and other premium distillers are fighting back with tiny but powerful NFC chips embedded in their most valuable bottles.
We explore exactly how these authentication systems work, from the wires that run through bottle seals to detect opening, to the specialized apps that instantly verify legitimacy. Nathan demonstrates how his Buffalo Trace Antique Collection bottle connects to their proprietary app, confirming both authenticity and sealed status with a simple smartphone tap. While this technology adds just pennies to production costs, it provides invaluable peace of mind to collectors investing in bottles worth hundreds or thousands of dollars.
But the implications stretch far beyond your whiskey cabinet. From NFC-embedded fingernails to high-end sneaker authentication, this technology is transforming how we verify everything valuable in our lives. Our discussion ventures into thought-provoking territory as we debate whether implantable NFC chips might someday replace keys, IDs, and credit cards – and whether convenience will ultimately trump privacy concerns. Nathan even reveals how he's used specialized equipment to clone NFC signals, raising important security questions about our increasingly digital identities.
Whether you're a whiskey enthusiast concerned about authenticity or simply curious about how technology is reshaping our physical world, this episode offers a perfect blend of practical knowledge and forward-thinking conversation. Subscribe now and join us for our next exploration of where whiskey meets innovation. Neat whiskey, smart tech, no chaser.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nathan Mumm (00:00):
Welcome to Neat Tech presented to you by Nathan
Mumm and Mark Gregoire.
Marc Gregoire (00:05):
starting now, Welcome to Neat Tech, where
whiskey meets innovation.
Pour yourself a glass and tunein to our newest radio segment,
where we discuss whiskey anddive into cutting-edge
technology topics.
Each episode we'll explore theintersection of technology and
our whiskey.
Each pour has a story.
Every bite of tech connects theway we experience the world.
(00:25):
Sit back, sip neat and join usfor a bold conversation about
whiskey and the technologyshaping our future.
Neat whiskey, smart tech, nochaser.
Now we're here with myself,mark and our buddy, nathan, and
behind the board is odia's Yep.
And today's pour is always thesmooth Eagle.
(00:46):
Rare, okay, 10 year Kentuckystraight bourbon with just the
right depth to match our techtopic.
Nathan Mumm (00:51):
Hmm, NFC chips.
Okay, near field communicationchips, correct.
Marc Gregoire (00:56):
We'll dive into how these tiny embedded tags are
showing up in whiskey bottles,from Buffalo trace to Johnny
Walker, as a way to verifyauthenticity and engage
customers.
And it does not stop at the bar.
Nfc is making its way acrossthe consumer market, even into
something as unexpected asfingernails.
Nathan Mumm (01:15):
That's right.
Which, nathan?
Marc Gregoire (01:15):
knows about.
That was a Nathan nugget on afew episodes ago, in a splendid
fashion with function andsurprising new ways.
Let's raise a glass and tapinto the tech.
Okay.
So first of all, nathan,explain to our audience what NFC
chips are.
You told us what the acronymwas, but tell us what they
actually are.
Nathan Mumm (01:33):
So the idea of this is it's a mini processor or
mini computer that storesinformation, All right.
So NFC chips have the abilityto have records that then go on
out and have information on whatyou would need to do for an ID,
what you would need to do foran identification process, and
(01:55):
it gives you the whole ideaabout the near field.
It gives you about 8 to 10 feetof connectivity.
Once you move outside of thatarea you can get yourself a
little bit in trouble because itmay not pick up.
But the whole idea of this isoriginally used for security
doors scanning in.
You had like a little prox cardthat you would have and you
would come up and you'd put itand say this is the idea of the
(02:16):
person, this is the personlogging in Still used for that
today, but that was kind of.
The idea is that it would giveidentity to somebody and
information and as it hasevolved there's more and more
information it can store.
Marc Gregoire (02:29):
Right.
And then one of the new usageor later usages now, as we
talked about in the intro, isdistillers like Buffalo Trace
and Johnny Walker embedding NFtags in their bottles to help
with anti-canner fitting.
Okay, Now.
Nathan Mumm (02:45):
So I did not know that until we were doing a
little prep work for this we'regoing to talk about how it works
and does it actually help?
Marc Gregoire (02:52):
So we have our Eagle Rare here, which does not
have a chip in it because it'sjust your standard off-the-shelf
store, the higher BTAC, whichis the Buffalo Trace Antique
Collection, which is theonce-a-year release.
There's an Eagle Rare 17-yearOkay, that has the NFC chip.
I don't have one of those, butI do have a George T Stagg.
Nathan Mumm (03:12):
It has an NFC chip in there.
Marc Gregoire (03:13):
That's part of the BTAC collection and that
does so.
Buffalo Trace actually hastheir own app.
So you take your phone and youtalked about they have to be
near, so I actually had to takeoff my back cover off of it uh,
because you had probably some,uh, rfid inhibitors for your
credit cards probably.
Nathan Mumm (03:30):
Okay, that makes sense.
It wasn't seen it out.
Marc Gregoire (03:32):
So I'm running the buffalo trace app and all
you do is you come over it scansit in oh, and then we give you
even a photo well, they haven't.
They haven't done this featurethey're.
They want to put a photo, butthe main thing that you look on
the BTAC is it says this productis authenticated by the company
and has never been opened.
Okay, so now you supposedlyknow that it's never been opened
(03:54):
and it's not a counterfeitbottle?
Okay, and then it gives you alittle bit about what George T
Stagg is.
A little commercial.
It's a little commercial, allright, and so a lot of the
bottles have those commercials.
Johnny Walker has it in thereand it has a lot of information.
It's on the Johnny Walker Blue,I believe.
Nathan Mumm (04:11):
Totally awesome tech, but if I'm at a bar and
I'm ordering a drink that's howI normally order my drinks how
am I going to know if?
Do I take my NFC chip up there,or is this really just for
bartenders?
This isn't for consumers.
Who's going to use this?
Marc Gregoire (04:26):
Well, this is like.
So, when I bought this bottle,first thing I did is I scanned
it before I paid my money to seeif it was authenticated, Okay,
and to make sure it had not beenopened, Okay.
In a way, it's a lot for it,because a lot of people go back
and used to take these bottles.
Buy them off eBay empty bottles, fill them with cheap whiskey,
re-cork them, re-put a littleseal on the top which is really
(04:48):
easy to do and sell them.
So a lot of the auction housesfor whiskey, a lot of it has
been faked Really.
Nathan Mumm (04:58):
So you get kind of a lower end version of the deal
and you put it in there and thenyou sell it for okay, okay, I
can see that making sense, butif you, had old school whiskey
that's worth a lot of money,like a Pappy's or something like
that from a long time agothey're not going to have the
NFC chip in there, so this isfor the newer stuff.
Marc Gregoire (05:15):
This is the newer stuff coming out.
Nathan Mumm (05:16):
What are you saying , Odie?
Ody (05:18):
Wait so just to confirm, you can't fake this, or?
Marc Gregoire (05:22):
it's harder to fake.
Nathan Mumm (05:23):
It's going to be tough.
It's going to be tough becausethere's going to be a chip in
here.
Marc Gregoire (05:26):
Yeah, so let me do this.
So the chip is at the top, onthe bottom, and there's actually
little wires that go downthrough the seal.
Okay, so when you, when youopen the tab around it's going
to break that it breaks thosewires which tells the chip that
it's been open.
Nathan Mumm (05:46):
So it's probably just a very simple code of, like
dev, whatever equals one, andthen once you have it, then
you're going to have your codethat says equals zero and then
all of a sudden, now it knowsthat it was open.
It's been open, oh, okay, okaynow.
Ody (05:56):
Thank you for breaking that down into geek speak would you
like the geek speak breakingdown there?
Okay, I mean I didn't know howto how that would register.
Nathan Mumm (06:05):
but now I Now you know it's a zero and a one.
I'm sure it's actually thatsimple because it doesn't have
to be any more complicated thanthat.
Marc Gregoire (06:12):
And then it also has like secret serial numbers
in there that check backs to thedatabase on the website.
So even if you put a fake NFCand you try and program it.
You can only program it for aparticular serial number and
they already know if open or notopen Really.
Nathan Mumm (06:28):
So they have a live server database that is going
to then open, and now it'll sayit's open.
So now it's equals zero andnever, ever again can it ever be
there, correct?
Marc Gregoire (06:35):
Huh, yeah, I did not know that they did that for
whiskey yeah, there's a YouTubechannel called Whiskey Tribe and
they have a great.
If you go, look at them up,they have a great episode that
talks about this and he actuallytook a knife, slid it open and
took the cover off, and theywere able to still register it
as not being open as long as youcut it just around that wire
(06:57):
yeah, you can take it off.
I figured yeah so it's notbulletproof, but they said you
know the amount of energy ittakes to get it just right yeah
and then you have to put it backon and reseal it, so you can't
take another seal and just stickit on.
And they have always have aspecial label on top you have to
use the same msc chip, then youwould have to steal that.
(07:19):
That cut yeah and that's verydifficult to do so, always check
your deal, okay, plus the nfcchip.
So with those combinations itdeters most people just like the
club on a car an expert thiefcan get around that in two
seconds, they just cut thesteering wheel deter 90 95 of
your people out there okay, allright, okay, wow, okay, well,
let me okay.
Nathan Mumm (07:40):
Well, we can talk more about nfcs.
All right, let me ask you arewe going to actually open it and
see if it works?
We are not okay.
Okay, uh, I was.
I was waiting for going toactually open it and see if it
works.
We are not Okay.
Okay, I was waiting for you toactually open it.
No, you want to sell it back toyour?
That one is not.
Marc Gregoire (07:53):
I just actually got that yesterday.
Nathan Mumm (07:55):
Is that from a friend?
Marc Gregoire (07:56):
That's a 2024 bag .
It was a friend up inBellingham, okay, and he won it
in a raffle and he gave it to mefor the price that he paid.
So I got it for MSRP, which isunheard of for this type of
whiskey, that's good, so we'llsave it.
We might open a George C Staggon a celebration for Tech Time.
I don't have a problem withthat at all, because whiskey is
(08:16):
meant to be shared with lovedones.
Nathan Mumm (08:18):
Okay, oh, that sounds very nice, if you do do
that, mark.
Ody (08:23):
Be sure to screen record your phone.
Marc Gregoire (08:25):
I love that idea.
Odie, You're welcome.
Odie will be on top of that.
The next question that we wantto talk about.
Nathan Mumm (08:30):
Did you like that other whiskey that you tasted
today, or no?
Ody (08:33):
No.
Nathan Mumm (08:34):
Okay.
Ody (08:34):
I think it was because that I had coffee before, because
when I like breezed in.
Nathan Mumm (08:39):
No, it had the coffee taste in the actual
whiskey.
Ody (08:42):
I don't know, it just was super peppery.
To me it was yeah same here,all right.
Marc Gregoire (08:46):
The next question that we have is do you think
this tech adds value for theaverage whiskey drinker, or is
it more for collectors orenthusiasts?
Now that you guys know,Absolutely.
Nathan Mumm (08:56):
I already kind of said this Because I'm at the bar
, I don't really care.
I order the drink and I want itfrom the certain bottle.
I'm probably, as a consumer,not going to make any difference
if it's NFC or not, but for acollector, absolutely Right.
This is like your PSA ratingsfor collectible cards.
This is like yourauthentication certificate for
(09:16):
memorabilia that you get with asignature from some star.
So this would be the way to saythat this is an official came
from us.
No bootleggers did anything inbetween.
So, yeah, I think this wouldprobably think this is not
expensive.
So an NFC chip, to put this inhere, the technology on the back
end was probably some dev timesand a lot of work to get it
done, but the actual chipsthemselves, I mean, these are
(09:37):
like pennies on the dollar toget these chips.
So if you have thempre-programmed, this is like two
cents that you're adding to thecost of this bottle.
Marc Gregoire (09:43):
Yep, I'm in full agreement with you.
I think regular consumersgenerally don't find or purchase
these bottles.
You don't find these on theshelf very often anyways, so
this is more for collectors andenthusiasts.
Nathan Mumm (09:53):
Now do they have these at standard areas like a
Wines and More, if I went to oneof those, which is not like
high-end, but they do have somehigh-end stuff.
They usually do these through araffle, okay.
Marc Gregoire (10:04):
And they would have the chips on them so you
can check it.
But those are pretty.
Those type of distributionchannels are usually very
reliable and they don't usuallyhave fake whiskey.
Okay, it's when you have theseauctions and other stuff that
you do.
It's liquor stores, odd liquorstores that you're not sure of,
mom and pops, as long as theybuy bottles from people and
resell.
Okay, now, outside of whiskey,let's move on from whiskey
(10:25):
outside of whiskey.
What are some of the moreinteresting and surprising uses?
Msc, m, m, nfc, nfc in consumerproducts well, I mean, so
people have these.
Nathan Mumm (10:34):
Some people have these in clothing, right?
Uh, you use them a lot in, um,if you go to a theme park, if
you go to a theme to a themepark and you're going to be
scanning in and doing stuff.
Ody (10:45):
I didn't think about the clothing aspect.
Now the whole store just makessense to me.
Marc Gregoire (10:50):
There's one particular clothing item that
uses them quite frequently orhas been increasing in frequency
.
Nathan Mumm (10:55):
It's shoes.
Marc Gregoire (10:57):
Shoes, that makes sense, shoes especially
high-end sneakers.
Nathan Mumm (10:59):
Yeah, that makes sense, because if you're buying
a nike pair for 400 bucks andyou're going to keep it for a
while, then you're going toprobably want to make sure that
that's legit, not the samefactory in china that put it
together and they have theknockoff I know this isn't your
guys's realm, but have you guysever gone to unique low?
Ody (11:14):
I have not so the store doesn't have any sensors on
anything, okay, and when you goand you buy, it's like a
self-checkout, yeah, um, andthen you just scan it and then
you just walk right out and mysister and I couldn't figure out
what it was that it just knows,because when people walk out
with an item accidentally, thestore beeps, okay.
So that's pretty.
Nathan Mumm (11:35):
I never thought about an nfc chip yeah, instead
of the big, huge, remember thosebig white tags they used to
have for clothing.
Now you can put that in muchsmaller.
Marc Gregoire (11:45):
Okay, Now Nathan, from a security perspective, is
there privacy or data concernswhen NFC enabled personal items
like fingernails or clothing?
Nathan Mumm (11:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
I have a device that I got on aKickstarter.
We actually talked about it onthe store.
If I'm anywhere within the NFC,I can actually duplicate the
NFC itself for however long Iwant to have it.
So if I'm within 10 feet fromyou and you have an NFC chip
that is there, I can actuallyread it, I can actually clone it
(12:15):
, I can actually copy it andthen I can just walk up to
whatever that security chipworks and immediately have that
taken care of.
Marc Gregoire (12:21):
I would love to use that after the show on this
bottle, oh, okay.
Nathan Mumm (12:26):
That would be very interesting Something not the
app reading it.
Marc Gregoire (12:29):
What does your device actually show?
Nathan Mumm (12:33):
Oh, the next thing is I have to find it In my junk
and stuff.
But yes, I have a specialdevice that I have done that
with and I've cloned almostevery nfc chip that that I've
had.
It's been able to clone it sothat's really.
Marc Gregoire (12:49):
The more of the danger is the cloning aspect.
It's really something actuallyreading really, because, like
people in the fingernails, asyou talked about on the tech
time show, they're using it todistribute information.
So they want people to read it,yes, but they don't want people
to actually necessarily clonetheir chip.
Nathan Mumm (13:04):
Yeah, so that's why , in the future, what we're
going to do with these NFC chipsis we'll start putting chips on
people's hands or on people'sbodies, so all of a sudden, then
, when someone dies in thesci-fi film, they cut off the
guy's hand so that they have theNFC chip on it and they can
take it.
Marc Gregoire (13:22):
They cut off the guy's hand so that they have the
NFC chip on it and they cantake it.
Wow, that's a perfect segue tomy next question for you.
Could NFCs in wearables oreveryday accessories replace
things like ID badges, keys orbusiness cards?
Ody (13:32):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean that is the future Is the
question can they or will?
Nathan Mumm (13:36):
they, they're already doing it Can they and
will they?
Yes, absolutely will.
They're already doing that now.
Ody (13:41):
What I don't think they will.
Nathan Mumm (13:43):
Yeah, they will.
Ody (13:43):
But will it become a mainstream thing?
Nathan Mumm (13:45):
No, absolutely.
Why wouldn't you put a chip onyour body that has all the
information you need to do?
And then, if you go to theclothing store that you were
just talking about and you walkout, now you don't have to get
anything out, you just walk out,right but from an extremist
standpoint people would fightagainst that.
Why is that?
Ody (14:04):
Because they're weird, okay , and they are against
innovation.
Do you know what?
Nathan Mumm (14:08):
do you understand what I'm talking about?
Are you starting to go likereligious on us now?
Yeah, well, okay, not me, Iknow.
Ody (14:13):
But thinking about because, like everything that has come
out technology wise, it's alwaysbeen some sort of pushback from
the religious right.
Yeah Well, credit cards.
Nathan Mumm (14:22):
you know they had information with magnetic strips
and that was going to kill you,and and everybody said no.
And now all those religiouspeople and all the people are
now having credit cards.
So what?
Ody (14:32):
it is.
It's just adoption over time.
Yeah, absolutely I don't know,I feel like a wearable tech
would be on your body or in yourbody.
Nathan Mumm (14:39):
Oh, I think both, I think in your body.
Ody (14:41):
Absolutely On your body, like a wearable bracelet that
you, just you know.
Marc Gregoire (14:45):
Or under your skin and your hand Under your
skin.
See, I can't see that, oh,that'll happen, absolutely will
happen?
Nathan Mumm (14:51):
Well, we know it's happened already.
I already know people that havedone that Absolutely.
But mainstream, oh yeah.
Ody (15:03):
Why wouldn?
100 years from now?
I don't see that happening.
Oh yeah, absolutely In, likethe next 10 years, but you need
better security.
Marc Gregoire (15:06):
Maybe not the next 10 years.
No, you don't.
They're not going to care aboutthat.
You don't want somebody likeyou going around and cloning
them and then creatingduplicates, so they'll probably
have passive and active.
Nathan Mumm (15:12):
So most of the NFCs are passive devices, so there's
not actual electricity that'srunning the device.
Device but they're going tocome out with is ones that have
algorithms that change every 10seconds, just as you do with
your standard authentication app, where it goes through and it
changes numbers once you starthaving the battery life and the
ability to have an active nsccheat.
Now you're going to havescrambled letters that change
(15:34):
and you're going to have to havestuff that and that will be
more secure.
So it'll just continue toadvance as technology.
Ody (15:40):
I'm thinking of like It'll just continue to advance as
technology goes.
See, I'm thinking of likeimagine 20, let's say random
number 20 years from now,everybody's got this stuff in
their skin.
There's no privacy anymore,like at all.
Nathan Mumm (15:51):
Is there any privacy now?
Every single time you search onthe internet, they know what
they got.
Ody (15:55):
Well, not me.
But if I were just some randomperson out on the street and I
were to die and I don't have mywallet on me, I don't have an ID
, I've never been fingerprinted.
Yeah, I'm pretty okay for ayear or two.
Nathan Mumm (16:07):
No, unless somebody , Did you ever go in and get
your Washington state driver'slicense picture taken care of?
Ody (16:13):
Yeah.
Nathan Mumm (16:14):
Did you put your fingerprints on when you did
that?
Ody (16:16):
I don't remember, probably yeah, okay.
So See, I'm just thinking oflike SVU standpoint, when they
would find like a Okay, let mejust tell you, svu is a
completely different subject.
Nathan Mumm (16:25):
That's all fake.
On technology.
You cannot take a picture of acar and zoom in and then have
the license plate come clean,and then you're just like, wow,
that's what we got.
Ody (16:34):
Look at our technology.
That's not what I'm talkingabout.
I'm talking about like ahomeless person that winds up
dead and that winds up dead.
Nathan Mumm (16:40):
They'll have tracking of that Really,
absolutely, yeah.
Let's say, if you're a homelessperson and you need help with
government assistance for foodor stuff like that, then all of
a sudden you're going to need tohave something so they can
identify you as you travel, andthe only way you're going to do
it is not through ID.
But here you go.
Yeah, absolutely.
Ody (16:56):
Okay, I see that now?
Nathan Mumm (16:58):
I think that that will.
I think you'll have somereligious people that choose not
to get it for a certain amountof time, and then I think they
will cave it at a certain timeit wouldn't just be religious,
also people that Extremists.
Marc Gregoire (17:08):
Extremists Well, not just extremists either A lot
of people that don't like biggovernment or don't like people
sharing their data or expressingit, but you got to remember.
Nathan Mumm (17:19):
technology advances and as technology advances and
generations advance, 100 yearsfrom now it's going to be quite
a bit different than what we arenow.
Marc Gregoire (17:28):
All right, well, as we wrap up here, Nathan,
anything else for NFC as wefinish our whiskey.
Nathan Mumm (17:33):
No, I have at least like 10 or 15 NFC devices that
I carry most of the time.
I have ones to get in my job,at work.
I get ones to get in my home.
We have NFC tags to get into myhouse, so I mean, that is how
you can get in and out of myhouse, I'll have to borrow that
tool and clone that.
Well, I've actually cloned thembefore and then bought a
(17:55):
third-party device that was muchcheaper than the actual chip,
so that I could have a thirdparty device and do it.
Marc Gregoire (18:00):
That makes you feel secure in your home,
doesn't it?
Nathan Mumm (18:02):
No, but I got to get something that half blink
cameras, and so I guess if youjust kind of come up there,
there you go, all right.
Marc Gregoire (18:08):
What do you think of the whiskey?
Nathan Mumm (18:10):
I think we've had this before.
Absolutely Thumbs up.
This is great whiskey.
Marc Gregoire (18:16):
It is.
It's a nice, standard, greatintroduction into anybody that
wants to get into whiskey.
This is a great one to kind of.
This was my introductionwhiskey.
That's what you're talkingabout.
Yeah, I was at Buffalo TraceDistillery with a business tour
and tasted some of the whiskeyand then I tasted this one and I
was like, wow, that wasterrific Is that how you became
(18:37):
a lover of whiskey, yeah, thatkind of opened it up.
Nathan Mumm (18:40):
Wow.
So that's like a generationalbeginning origin story of Mark.
Marc Gregoire (18:44):
That's where I got into whiskey a little bit
earlier, when we moved todifferent Portland and we did
Burnside Bourbon Okay, and thatkind of got me into things Does
your multiverse Mark also likeit too.
He does.
Okay, every version of Mark inthe multiverse.
Okay, there you go, perfect.
Well, everybody, thank you forjoining us today.
We appreciate you watching orlistening as we drink a little
whiskey and talk a little tech.
(19:05):
Neat whiskey, smart tech nochaser.
Thank you again.
See you guys later.
Nathan Mumm (19:10):
That was Neat Tech.
Now how about watching some ofour bloopers.
See you next time.
Marc Gregoire (19:16):
Pour yourself a glass and tune into our nudist.
I'm going to start over.
Nathan Mumm (19:20):
Nudist I like our nudists.
Marc Gregoire (19:22):
Take off that shirt, buddy.
Nathan Mumm (19:24):
There you go.
Marc Gregoire (19:26):
I did the same thing last time.
That's what took me half thetime as I messed up the intro.
Nathan Mumm (19:29):
I think you did the nudist.
I think the nudist is gettingyou.
Welcome to Neat Tech presented to you by Nathan
Mumm and Mark Gregoire.
Marc Gregoire (00:05):
starting now, Welcome to Neat Tech, where
whiskey meets innovation.
Pour yourself a glass and tunein to our newest radio segment,
where we discuss whiskey anddive into cutting-edge
technology topics.
Each episode we'll explore theintersection of technology and
our whiskey.
Each pour has a story.
Every bite of tech connects theway we experience the world.
(00:25):
Sit back, sip neat and join usfor a bold conversation about
whiskey and the technologyshaping our future.
Neat whiskey, smart tech, nochaser.
Now we're here with myself,mark and our buddy, nathan, and
behind the board is odia's Yep.
And today's pour is always thesmooth Eagle.
(00:46):
Rare, okay, 10 year Kentuckystraight bourbon with just the
right depth to match our techtopic.
Nathan Mumm (00:51):
Hmm, NFC chips.
Okay, near field communicationchips, correct.
Marc Gregoire (00:56):
We'll dive into how these tiny embedded tags are
showing up in whiskey bottles,from Buffalo trace to Johnny
Walker, as a way to verifyauthenticity and engage
customers.
And it does not stop at the bar.
Nfc is making its way acrossthe consumer market, even into
something as unexpected asfingernails.
Nathan Mumm (01:15):
That's right.
Which, nathan?
Marc Gregoire (01:15):
knows about.
That was a Nathan nugget on afew episodes ago, in a splendid
fashion with function andsurprising new ways.
Let's raise a glass and tapinto the tech.
Okay.
So first of all, nathan,explain to our audience what NFC
chips are.
You told us what the acronymwas, but tell us what they
actually are.
Nathan Mumm (01:33):
So the idea of this is it's a mini processor or
mini computer that storesinformation, All right.
So NFC chips have the abilityto have records that then go on
out and have information on whatyou would need to do for an ID,
what you would need to do foran identification process, and
(01:55):
it gives you the whole ideaabout the near field.
It gives you about 8 to 10 feetof connectivity.
Once you move outside of thatarea you can get yourself a
little bit in trouble because itmay not pick up.
But the whole idea of this isoriginally used for security
doors scanning in.
You had like a little prox cardthat you would have and you
would come up and you'd put itand say this is the idea of the
(02:16):
person, this is the personlogging in Still used for that
today, but that was kind of.
The idea is that it would giveidentity to somebody and
information and as it hasevolved there's more and more
information it can store.
Marc Gregoire (02:29):
Right.
And then one of the new usageor later usages now, as we
talked about in the intro, isdistillers like Buffalo Trace
and Johnny Walker embedding NFtags in their bottles to help
with anti-canner fitting.
Okay, Now.
Nathan Mumm (02:45):
So I did not know that until we were doing a
little prep work for this we'regoing to talk about how it works
and does it actually help?
Marc Gregoire (02:52):
So we have our Eagle Rare here, which does not
have a chip in it because it'sjust your standard off-the-shelf
store, the higher BTAC, whichis the Buffalo Trace Antique
Collection, which is theonce-a-year release.
There's an Eagle Rare 17-yearOkay, that has the NFC chip.
I don't have one of those, butI do have a George T Stagg.
Nathan Mumm (03:12):
It has an NFC chip in there.
Marc Gregoire (03:13):
That's part of the BTAC collection and that
does so.
Buffalo Trace actually hastheir own app.
So you take your phone and youtalked about they have to be
near, so I actually had to takeoff my back cover off of it uh,
because you had probably some,uh, rfid inhibitors for your
credit cards probably.
Nathan Mumm (03:30):
Okay, that makes sense.
It wasn't seen it out.
Marc Gregoire (03:32):
So I'm running the buffalo trace app and all
you do is you come over it scansit in oh, and then we give you
even a photo well, they haven't.
They haven't done this featurethey're.
They want to put a photo, butthe main thing that you look on
the BTAC is it says this productis authenticated by the company
and has never been opened.
Okay, so now you supposedlyknow that it's never been opened
(03:54):
and it's not a counterfeitbottle?
Okay, and then it gives you alittle bit about what George T
Stagg is.
A little commercial.
It's a little commercial, allright, and so a lot of the
bottles have those commercials.
Johnny Walker has it in thereand it has a lot of information.
It's on the Johnny Walker Blue,I believe.
Nathan Mumm (04:11):
Totally awesome tech, but if I'm at a bar and
I'm ordering a drink that's howI normally order my drinks how
am I going to know if?
Do I take my NFC chip up there,or is this really just for
bartenders?
This isn't for consumers.
Who's going to use this?
Marc Gregoire (04:26):
Well, this is like.
So, when I bought this bottle,first thing I did is I scanned
it before I paid my money to seeif it was authenticated, Okay,
and to make sure it had not beenopened, Okay.
In a way, it's a lot for it,because a lot of people go back
and used to take these bottles.
Buy them off eBay empty bottles, fill them with cheap whiskey,
re-cork them, re-put a littleseal on the top which is really
(04:48):
easy to do and sell them.
So a lot of the auction housesfor whiskey, a lot of it has
been faked Really.
Nathan Mumm (04:58):
So you get kind of a lower end version of the deal
and you put it in there and thenyou sell it for okay, okay, I
can see that making sense, butif you, had old school whiskey
that's worth a lot of money,like a Pappy's or something like
that from a long time agothey're not going to have the
NFC chip in there, so this isfor the newer stuff.
Marc Gregoire (05:15):
This is the newer stuff coming out.
Nathan Mumm (05:16):
What are you saying , Odie?
Ody (05:18):
Wait so just to confirm, you can't fake this, or?
Marc Gregoire (05:22):
it's harder to fake.
Nathan Mumm (05:23):
It's going to be tough.
It's going to be tough becausethere's going to be a chip in
here.
Marc Gregoire (05:26):
Yeah, so let me do this.
So the chip is at the top, onthe bottom, and there's actually
little wires that go downthrough the seal.
Okay, so when you, when youopen the tab around it's going
to break that it breaks thosewires which tells the chip that
it's been open.
Nathan Mumm (05:46):
So it's probably just a very simple code of, like
dev, whatever equals one, andthen once you have it, then
you're going to have your codethat says equals zero and then
all of a sudden, now it knowsthat it was open.
It's been open, oh, okay, okaynow.
Ody (05:56):
Thank you for breaking that down into geek speak would you
like the geek speak breakingdown there?
Okay, I mean I didn't know howto how that would register.
Nathan Mumm (06:05):
but now I Now you know it's a zero and a one.
I'm sure it's actually thatsimple because it doesn't have
to be any more complicated thanthat.
Marc Gregoire (06:12):
And then it also has like secret serial numbers
in there that check backs to thedatabase on the website.
So even if you put a fake NFCand you try and program it.
You can only program it for aparticular serial number and
they already know if open or notopen Really.
Nathan Mumm (06:28):
So they have a live server database that is going
to then open, and now it'll sayit's open.
So now it's equals zero andnever, ever again can it ever be
there, correct?
Marc Gregoire (06:35):
Huh, yeah, I did not know that they did that for
whiskey yeah, there's a YouTubechannel called Whiskey Tribe and
they have a great.
If you go, look at them up,they have a great episode that
talks about this and he actuallytook a knife, slid it open and
took the cover off, and theywere able to still register it
as not being open as long as youcut it just around that wire
(06:57):
yeah, you can take it off.
I figured yeah so it's notbulletproof, but they said you
know the amount of energy ittakes to get it just right yeah
and then you have to put it backon and reseal it, so you can't
take another seal and just stickit on.
And they have always have aspecial label on top you have to
use the same msc chip, then youwould have to steal that.
(07:19):
That cut yeah and that's verydifficult to do so, always check
your deal, okay, plus the nfcchip.
So with those combinations itdeters most people just like the
club on a car an expert thiefcan get around that in two
seconds, they just cut thesteering wheel deter 90 95 of
your people out there okay, allright, okay, wow, okay, well,
let me okay.
Nathan Mumm (07:40):
Well, we can talk more about nfcs.
All right, let me ask you arewe going to actually open it and
see if it works?
We are not okay.
Okay, uh, I was.
I was waiting for going toactually open it and see if it
works.
We are not Okay.
Okay, I was waiting for you toactually open it.
No, you want to sell it back toyour?
That one is not.
Marc Gregoire (07:53):
I just actually got that yesterday.
Nathan Mumm (07:55):
Is that from a friend?
Marc Gregoire (07:56):
That's a 2024 bag .
It was a friend up inBellingham, okay, and he won it
in a raffle and he gave it to mefor the price that he paid.
So I got it for MSRP, which isunheard of for this type of
whiskey, that's good, so we'llsave it.
We might open a George C Staggon a celebration for Tech Time.
I don't have a problem withthat at all, because whiskey is
(08:16):
meant to be shared with lovedones.
Nathan Mumm (08:18):
Okay, oh, that sounds very nice, if you do do
that, mark.
Ody (08:23):
Be sure to screen record your phone.
Marc Gregoire (08:25):
I love that idea.
Odie, You're welcome.
Odie will be on top of that.
The next question that we wantto talk about.
Nathan Mumm (08:30):
Did you like that other whiskey that you tasted
today, or no?
Ody (08:33):
No.
Nathan Mumm (08:34):
Okay.
Ody (08:34):
I think it was because that I had coffee before, because
when I like breezed in.
Nathan Mumm (08:39):
No, it had the coffee taste in the actual
whiskey.
Ody (08:42):
I don't know, it just was super peppery.
To me it was yeah same here,all right.
Marc Gregoire (08:46):
The next question that we have is do you think
this tech adds value for theaverage whiskey drinker, or is
it more for collectors orenthusiasts?
Now that you guys know,Absolutely.
Nathan Mumm (08:56):
I already kind of said this Because I'm at the bar
, I don't really care.
I order the drink and I want itfrom the certain bottle.
I'm probably, as a consumer,not going to make any difference
if it's NFC or not, but for acollector, absolutely Right.
This is like your PSA ratingsfor collectible cards.
This is like yourauthentication certificate for
(09:16):
memorabilia that you get with asignature from some star.
So this would be the way to saythat this is an official came
from us.
No bootleggers did anything inbetween.
So, yeah, I think this wouldprobably think this is not
expensive.
So an NFC chip, to put this inhere, the technology on the back
end was probably some dev timesand a lot of work to get it
done, but the actual chipsthemselves, I mean, these are
(09:37):
like pennies on the dollar toget these chips.
So if you have thempre-programmed, this is like two
cents that you're adding to thecost of this bottle.
Marc Gregoire (09:43):
Yep, I'm in full agreement with you.
I think regular consumersgenerally don't find or purchase
these bottles.
You don't find these on theshelf very often anyways, so
this is more for collectors andenthusiasts.
Nathan Mumm (09:53):
Now do they have these at standard areas like a
Wines and More, if I went to oneof those, which is not like
high-end, but they do have somehigh-end stuff.
They usually do these through araffle, okay.
Marc Gregoire (10:04):
And they would have the chips on them so you
can check it.
But those are pretty.
Those type of distributionchannels are usually very
reliable and they don't usuallyhave fake whiskey.
Okay, it's when you have theseauctions and other stuff that
you do.
It's liquor stores, odd liquorstores that you're not sure of,
mom and pops, as long as theybuy bottles from people and
resell.
Okay, now, outside of whiskey,let's move on from whiskey
(10:25):
outside of whiskey.
What are some of the moreinteresting and surprising uses?
Msc, m, m, nfc, nfc in consumerproducts well, I mean, so
people have these.
Nathan Mumm (10:34):
Some people have these in clothing, right?
Uh, you use them a lot in, um,if you go to a theme park, if
you go to a theme to a themepark and you're going to be
scanning in and doing stuff.
Ody (10:45):
I didn't think about the clothing aspect.
Now the whole store just makessense to me.
Marc Gregoire (10:50):
There's one particular clothing item that
uses them quite frequently orhas been increasing in frequency
.
Nathan Mumm (10:55):
It's shoes.
Marc Gregoire (10:57):
Shoes, that makes sense, shoes especially
high-end sneakers.
Nathan Mumm (10:59):
Yeah, that makes sense, because if you're buying
a nike pair for 400 bucks andyou're going to keep it for a
while, then you're going toprobably want to make sure that
that's legit, not the samefactory in china that put it
together and they have theknockoff I know this isn't your
guys's realm, but have you guysever gone to unique low?
Ody (11:14):
I have not so the store doesn't have any sensors on
anything, okay, and when you goand you buy, it's like a
self-checkout, yeah, um, andthen you just scan it and then
you just walk right out and mysister and I couldn't figure out
what it was that it just knows,because when people walk out
with an item accidentally, thestore beeps, okay.
So that's pretty.
Nathan Mumm (11:35):
I never thought about an nfc chip yeah, instead
of the big, huge, remember thosebig white tags they used to
have for clothing.
Now you can put that in muchsmaller.
Marc Gregoire (11:45):
Okay, Now Nathan, from a security perspective, is
there privacy or data concernswhen NFC enabled personal items
like fingernails or clothing?
Nathan Mumm (11:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
I have a device that I got on aKickstarter.
We actually talked about it onthe store.
If I'm anywhere within the NFC,I can actually duplicate the
NFC itself for however long Iwant to have it.
So if I'm within 10 feet fromyou and you have an NFC chip
that is there, I can actuallyread it, I can actually clone it
(12:15):
, I can actually copy it andthen I can just walk up to
whatever that security chipworks and immediately have that
taken care of.
Marc Gregoire (12:21):
I would love to use that after the show on this
bottle, oh, okay.
Nathan Mumm (12:26):
That would be very interesting Something not the
app reading it.
Marc Gregoire (12:29):
What does your device actually show?
Nathan Mumm (12:33):
Oh, the next thing is I have to find it In my junk
and stuff.
But yes, I have a specialdevice that I have done that
with and I've cloned almostevery nfc chip that that I've
had.
It's been able to clone it sothat's really.
Marc Gregoire (12:49):
The more of the danger is the cloning aspect.
It's really something actuallyreading really, because, like
people in the fingernails, asyou talked about on the tech
time show, they're using it todistribute information.
So they want people to read it,yes, but they don't want people
to actually necessarily clonetheir chip.
Nathan Mumm (13:04):
Yeah, so that's why , in the future, what we're
going to do with these NFC chipsis we'll start putting chips on
people's hands or on people'sbodies, so all of a sudden, then
, when someone dies in thesci-fi film, they cut off the
guy's hand so that they have theNFC chip on it and they can
take it.
Marc Gregoire (13:22):
They cut off the guy's hand so that they have the
NFC chip on it and they cantake it.
Wow, that's a perfect segue tomy next question for you.
Could NFCs in wearables oreveryday accessories replace
things like ID badges, keys orbusiness cards?
Ody (13:32):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean that is the future Is the
question can they or will?
Nathan Mumm (13:36):
they, they're already doing it Can they and
will they?
Yes, absolutely will.
They're already doing that now.
Ody (13:41):
What I don't think they will.
Nathan Mumm (13:43):
Yeah, they will.
Ody (13:43):
But will it become a mainstream thing?
Nathan Mumm (13:45):
No, absolutely.
Why wouldn't you put a chip onyour body that has all the
information you need to do?
And then, if you go to theclothing store that you were
just talking about and you walkout, now you don't have to get
anything out, you just walk out,right but from an extremist
standpoint people would fightagainst that.
Why is that?
Ody (14:04):
Because they're weird, okay , and they are against
innovation.
Do you know what?
Nathan Mumm (14:08):
do you understand what I'm talking about?
Are you starting to go likereligious on us now?
Yeah, well, okay, not me, Iknow.
Ody (14:13):
But thinking about because, like everything that has come
out technology wise, it's alwaysbeen some sort of pushback from
the religious right.
Yeah Well, credit cards.
Nathan Mumm (14:22):
you know they had information with magnetic strips
and that was going to kill you,and and everybody said no.
And now all those religiouspeople and all the people are
now having credit cards.
So what?
Ody (14:32):
it is.
It's just adoption over time.
Yeah, absolutely I don't know,I feel like a wearable tech
would be on your body or in yourbody.
Nathan Mumm (14:39):
Oh, I think both, I think in your body.
Ody (14:41):
Absolutely On your body, like a wearable bracelet that
you, just you know.
Marc Gregoire (14:45):
Or under your skin and your hand Under your
skin.
See, I can't see that, oh,that'll happen, absolutely will
happen?
Nathan Mumm (14:51):
Well, we know it's happened already.
I already know people that havedone that Absolutely.
But mainstream, oh yeah.
Ody (15:03):
Why wouldn?
100 years from now?
I don't see that happening.
Oh yeah, absolutely In, likethe next 10 years, but you need
better security.
Marc Gregoire (15:06):
Maybe not the next 10 years.
No, you don't.
They're not going to care aboutthat.
You don't want somebody likeyou going around and cloning
them and then creatingduplicates, so they'll probably
have passive and active.
Nathan Mumm (15:12):
So most of the NFCs are passive devices, so there's
not actual electricity that'srunning the device.
Device but they're going tocome out with is ones that have
algorithms that change every 10seconds, just as you do with
your standard authentication app, where it goes through and it
changes numbers once you starthaving the battery life and the
ability to have an active nsccheat.
Now you're going to havescrambled letters that change
(15:34):
and you're going to have to havestuff that and that will be
more secure.
So it'll just continue toadvance as technology.
Ody (15:40):
I'm thinking of like It'll just continue to advance as
technology goes.
See, I'm thinking of likeimagine 20, let's say random
number 20 years from now,everybody's got this stuff in
their skin.
There's no privacy anymore,like at all.
Nathan Mumm (15:51):
Is there any privacy now?
Every single time you search onthe internet, they know what
they got.
Ody (15:55):
Well, not me.
But if I were just some randomperson out on the street and I
were to die and I don't have mywallet on me, I don't have an ID
, I've never been fingerprinted.
Yeah, I'm pretty okay for ayear or two.
Nathan Mumm (16:07):
No, unless somebody , Did you ever go in and get
your Washington state driver'slicense picture taken care of?
Ody (16:13):
Yeah.
Nathan Mumm (16:14):
Did you put your fingerprints on when you did
that?
Ody (16:16):
I don't remember, probably yeah, okay.
So See, I'm just thinking oflike SVU standpoint, when they
would find like a Okay, let mejust tell you, svu is a
completely different subject.
Nathan Mumm (16:25):
That's all fake.
On technology.
You cannot take a picture of acar and zoom in and then have
the license plate come clean,and then you're just like, wow,
that's what we got.
Ody (16:34):
Look at our technology.
That's not what I'm talkingabout.
I'm talking about like ahomeless person that winds up
dead and that winds up dead.
Nathan Mumm (16:40):
They'll have tracking of that Really,
absolutely, yeah.
Let's say, if you're a homelessperson and you need help with
government assistance for foodor stuff like that, then all of
a sudden you're going to need tohave something so they can
identify you as you travel, andthe only way you're going to do
it is not through ID.
But here you go.
Yeah, absolutely.
Ody (16:56):
Okay, I see that now?
Nathan Mumm (16:58):
I think that that will.
I think you'll have somereligious people that choose not
to get it for a certain amountof time, and then I think they
will cave it at a certain timeit wouldn't just be religious,
also people that Extremists.
Marc Gregoire (17:08):
Extremists Well, not just extremists either A lot
of people that don't like biggovernment or don't like people
sharing their data or expressingit, but you got to remember.
Nathan Mumm (17:19):
technology advances and as technology advances and
generations advance, 100 yearsfrom now it's going to be quite
a bit different than what we arenow.
Marc Gregoire (17:28):
All right, well, as we wrap up here, Nathan,
anything else for NFC as wefinish our whiskey.
Nathan Mumm (17:33):
No, I have at least like 10 or 15 NFC devices that
I carry most of the time.
I have ones to get in my job,at work.
I get ones to get in my home.
We have NFC tags to get into myhouse, so I mean, that is how
you can get in and out of myhouse, I'll have to borrow that
tool and clone that.
Well, I've actually cloned thembefore and then bought a
(17:55):
third-party device that was muchcheaper than the actual chip,
so that I could have a thirdparty device and do it.
Marc Gregoire (18:00):
That makes you feel secure in your home,
doesn't it?
Nathan Mumm (18:02):
No, but I got to get something that half blink
cameras, and so I guess if youjust kind of come up there,
there you go, all right.
Marc Gregoire (18:08):
What do you think of the whiskey?
Nathan Mumm (18:10):
I think we've had this before.
Absolutely Thumbs up.
This is great whiskey.
Marc Gregoire (18:16):
It is.
It's a nice, standard, greatintroduction into anybody that
wants to get into whiskey.
This is a great one to kind of.
This was my introductionwhiskey.
That's what you're talkingabout.
Yeah, I was at Buffalo TraceDistillery with a business tour
and tasted some of the whiskeyand then I tasted this one and I
was like, wow, that wasterrific Is that how you became
(18:37):
a lover of whiskey, yeah, thatkind of opened it up.
Nathan Mumm (18:40):
Wow.
So that's like a generationalbeginning origin story of Mark.
Marc Gregoire (18:44):
That's where I got into whiskey a little bit
earlier, when we moved todifferent Portland and we did
Burnside Bourbon Okay, and thatkind of got me into things Does
your multiverse Mark also likeit too.
He does.
Okay, every version of Mark inthe multiverse.
Okay, there you go, perfect.
Well, everybody, thank you forjoining us today.
We appreciate you watching orlistening as we drink a little
whiskey and talk a little tech.
(19:05):
Neat whiskey, smart tech nochaser.
Thank you again.
See you guys later.
Nathan Mumm (19:10):
That was Neat Tech.
Now how about watching some ofour bloopers.
See you next time.
Marc Gregoire (19:16):
Pour yourself a glass and tune into our nudist.
I'm going to start over.
Nathan Mumm (19:20):
Nudist I like our nudists.
Marc Gregoire (19:22):
Take off that shirt, buddy.
Nathan Mumm (19:24):
There you go.
Marc Gregoire (19:26):
I did the same thing last time.
That's what took me half thetime as I messed up the intro.
Nathan Mumm (19:29):
I think you did the nudist.
I think the nudist is gettingyou.
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