Leading at NASA with Passion & Precision: Dr. Cindi Pietroski

*SPECIAL FEATURE* with Dr. Cindi Pietroski, Division Chief, NASA Wallops Flight Facility (WFF) Safety & Mission Assurance (S&MA)

Tune in to this Special Edition with Dr. Cindi Pietroski, a seasoned Systems Engineer and leader with over a decade of experience in the military and aerospace sectors. As Division Chief at NASA’s Safety & Mission Assurance Office, Dr. Pietroski leads mission-critical safety operations, overseeing over 60 personnel in the planning and execution of all aspects of safety, including operational, flight, ground, and institutional safety for a variety of missions across the NASA WFF portfolio. She shares valuable insights on leadership, engineering excellence, motherhood, civic duties, and the future of space exploration!

Tune in for an inspiring conversation about her personal and professional journey.
And don't miss these key takeaways:
●      What it means to "conquer your mountain"
●      The importance of work-life balance
●      Challenges of being a young female leader in male-dominated fields
●      How to build confidence by trusting your expertise
●      Letting passion shine through in your work

Connect with Dr. Cindi Pietroski on LinkedIn 


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Team Leadership Radio, your resource for inspiration and
partner and transformation. We are here to train, equipp empower,
and mobilize you into your purpose. Are you ready to
take charge of your life and your career than settle
in the world of weights? Let's unlook the leader in you.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to one hour of Power. I'm your host, Doctor
Cecilia Martin. This is sponsored by Team Leadership Radio and
I have with me for this one hour a powerhouse
of a woman. Today. Joining me is doctor Cindy Petrolski,
Division Chief for NASA Wallops like Facility Safety and Mission Assurance.

(00:41):
Doctor Cindy Petrowski's career reflects a trajectory of increasing responsibility
and leadership within the Department of Defense and NASA. Growing
up as the daughter of a Navy family, she experienced
diverse environments across the United States, ultimately returning to East Shore,
where her family had strong Navy ties. Doctor Petrowski began

(01:05):
her professional journey at Lockheed Martin's Surface Combat System Center
as a data center librarian while pursuing her Bachelor of
Science from Software University and applied mathematics with a minor
and physics. Upon graduation, In two thousand and three, she
transitioned to a systems engineer role at Lakey. Continuing her

(01:28):
academic pursuits, Doctor Petrolski earned a master's degree in engineering
management from Old Dominion University and transferred to civil service
as the Egypts Ballistic Missile Defense Systems Engineer. She then
completed her PhD in Organizational leadership from the University of

(01:49):
Maryland Eastern Shore in twenty twelve. The following year, after
a six month rotation with the Program Executive Office IWS
one point zero, focusing on cruisers and destroyers in service
and new construction combat systems, Doctor Petrowski was appointed Egypts
and Ballistic Missile Defense Program Manager for the Lockheed's Surface

(02:13):
Combat System Center. In this role, she served as the
technical authority for all fielded and developmental baselines for the
US Navy's Egypts and Ballistic Missile Defense Fleet. This also
included a rotation as the Technical Director. Later, she was
selected as the Land based Test Site Manager and System

(02:34):
Engineer Department Heads, where she oversaw in service efforts across
five land based test sites, providing leadership to government and
contractor engineering teams. In twenty nineteen, Dr Petrowski joined NASA
Wallops Flight Facility as a Technology Manager for the Balloon
Program Office. She was responsible for the planning, development, and

(02:59):
integration of the Super Pressure Balloon instrumentation and other technology projects,
and subsequently advanced the Flight Safety Branch head and ultimately
excel to her current position as the Vision Chief. In
this role, she leads a team of over sixty personnel
overseeing all safety aspects, including operational, flight, ground, and institutional

(03:23):
safety for NASA WSF missions. Doctor Petrowski's contributions has been
recognized with numerous awards, including the Navy Meritorious Civilian Service Award,
the Navy's Unit and Civilian Service Commendation, the Robert H.
Goddard Leadership Award, and the Program Executive Office IWS Excellence Award.

(03:46):
She holds certifications and Defense Acquisition Workforce Improvement ACT Engineering
Level two, Program Management Level three, Lean SI Sigma Green Belt,
and Product Development Lead. Now, I don't don't know how
she finds the time, but Doctor Sandy Petrowski is actively
engaged in STEM outreach within her community and volunteers with

(04:09):
the Mount Vernon Volunteer Fire Department and the Somerset The
Somerset County Swift Water Rescue Team and the National Multiple
Scrosive Society. She resides in Princess Anne, Maryland, with her
husband David and their children, Joanna and Maverick. Oh my gosh, welcome,

(04:30):
doctor Petrowski.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
Oh my goodness, you are so well accomplished. Did you
play with dolls growing up or were you playing market ship? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (04:42):
Well, I hope that I heard a father who was
very much into helping me understand, you know, and be
inquisitive for how the world works. So not just playing
with dolls, but also anytime I saw something him going, well, well,
how do you think that works? Are here, let me
show you how this works, and kind of getting you
to play with things to ask those questions, even from
early on. So yeah, always trying to figure out and

(05:06):
solve how something does what it does.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Well. Is your dad in the area in the field
of science and what about mom?

Speaker 3 (05:14):
So they were both in the Navy, that was how
they actually met, and he was a radar technician at
the time. My mom soon got out of the service
when she found out that she was having me, and
that was something that at that time that they could do,
so she stayed and helped raise me while my dad
stayed in So he was a radar technician, so very
much in the field of science, very much in the
understanding of radars and how they work and all the

(05:36):
components that go into making these radars work, how to
do long range detection with our radars, everything that needed
to go into the development of the radars are that
support our fleet and the maintenance of those. So very
much in kind of that science field. He has now
retired from working. But yeah, he had a very long career,
not only in service serving in the US Navy, but

(05:58):
also then on the contryarctor's side supporting the Navy. From
that perspective, wow, that's incredible.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
I mean when I was I was you know, my
brain was cracking just reading reading your bio and I
really quick though, I want to can you explain to
us but the difference between like what is the ballistic
missile defense and the balloon program all you know, it's
not like one of those big balloons that the US
was shooting down from China, right.

Speaker 3 (06:25):
It actually is very similar to that. So, yes, ballistic
missile defense and the balloon program officer actually two very
very very separate things. So the ballistic missile defense is
something that way back you'll probably recall if it's actually
something that came up during the Reagan era. We knew
that this was an emerging threat from our adversaries, and
so we needed to be able to know how to
have defense against those types of threats, so specifically ballistic

(06:48):
missile threats. So there was efforts put underway to help
start building our defenses against those, and so as part
of that, the US maybe Fleet had to develop capabilities
to be able to support those. So as it was
emerging into the development to get deployed out there to
the fleet, that was where we were getting pulled in
as a land based test site to be able to
test those capabilities and make sure that they were certified

(07:10):
and ready to support our sailors that were out in
harm's way. So it was kind of on that forefront
of when those programs were kind of being built and
being tested out and then being deployed out to the fleet. Actually,
fun fact, I was the lead engineer for one of
the first East Coast BMD test events that we conducted
out of Wallops Island there, so I got to see

(07:31):
when of the first ever East Coast test shot and
then participate in a few more after that. But to
transition to the balloons that is very very different. So
the ballooning program is geared towards science. So yes, they
are very similar to the Chinese ones that we've heard
about in the news that were coming over. The differences
is the ones that we do or geared towards science,

(07:53):
So there's different levels of them. There's what's called a
zero pressure balloon and then what's called a super pressure balloon,
and it really goes back to the science that they're
looking to capture. And what happens is these balloons get
on them very very very very very very very to
the outer portions of the atmosphere, so that there's basically
no atmosphere for these instruments, so that they can then

(08:15):
do their measurements, whether they're looking at stars or looking
at space, or if they're looking back towards the Earth,
to capture certain measurements. And what that allows is kind
of the in between of having a satellite instrument and
having an instrument that's on something like a sounding rocket,
so it can go up there and it can stay

(08:35):
in that very very very thin layer of atmosphere for
hours per days weeks. We just supported one of our
longest missions out of Antarctica last winter and it was
up for well over thirty days, and they can get
their instrument back afterwards, which is also a big difference
because if you think about when we're sending a satellite

(08:57):
up that's trying to capture some of these these data
points in space, once that satellite's up there in orbit,
it's in orbit. You're not getting that instrument back. If
you need to tweak it or update it, you know
it's up there. Similarly, if you're doing a sounding rocket,
they go up and come back down, you know, relatively quickly.
You may have about a ten minute window that you
can capture science, whereas the balloon can go up and

(09:18):
it can take and hold that instrument up there. And
it's important because that's a lot of the early technology
development that we need to do for these later, bigger projects.
So when you think of things like the James Web
telescope and Hubble and those big telescoping instruments that are
being put up, and even the satellites, some of the
satellites that were being put up, it's an opportunity for
these scientists to test them on a smaller platform but

(09:41):
in similar environments before they're being deployed into the real thing.
So very very very interesting capability and way of testing
those things out.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
You just gave us a five minute master class why
it is necessary to national secure the engineers and mathematicians
and all of that. I mean, that's incredible. And every
since I've known you, you have always been very passionate
about your fast You don't find in many people. Did

(10:14):
you have a dream that you would lie to the
top of your field or was it something that happened
naturally or was it an intentional climb? You know, some
people are very intentional about reaching a certain point by
a certain age, and you're relatively young, so.

Speaker 3 (10:29):
It was a little bit intentional. I wouldn't say that
when I went in and was going for my bachelor's degree,
I ever imagined that I would be, you know, at
the position or the level that I'm at now. But
it was kind of one of those you know when
they say, like, what's your five year plan, you know,
tend your plane? It was kind of like, what was
that goal that I saw for myself coming out of
some of it? So, you know, when even when I

(10:50):
started as a data librarian, you know, working for the
Lockey Martin contractor, I knew one day I wanted to
be in the engineering field, so I kind of knew
like that's where I wanted to go. I also knew
that I wanted to do it working for the federal
government as a civil servant, so I kind of knew
that was where I wanted to go. I wanted to
be an engineer working for the government, you know, helping

(11:13):
move forward, you know, our missions and our priorities. So
it was kind of like that was my goal. So
when I hit that goal, it was like, okay, well
now I'm here. Now what what do I want next
for myself? So then it was kind of like, okay,
well I'm an engineer. Well, I really like to understand,
you know, kind of program management and able to help
direct some of these programs and fear and influence programs

(11:34):
in the directions that you know are best for them.
So it's kind of like that was my next goal.
And then it was like, you know, it kind of
just at each step it was kind of like, okay, well,
well where do I go next? And even in the
position that I'm currently in, as you know, the chief
it was, I started as the flight safety branch head
and you know, kind of said, okay, well, where do
I want to go next? Where do I ultimately want

(11:56):
to be? Is this where I want to stop at?
Because I mean there's also that point of is this
as far as I want to go? Have I reached
the top of my mountain? You know, not everyone's mountain,
but my mountain? Yeah, And so that's also a question
that I've had to ask myself a couple of times, like,
am I okay? If this is like if my career
was done tomorrow, am I okay? Or is there more

(12:17):
that I want to achieve? And it was even similar
with my with my education. I got my bachelor's and
I was good with my bachelors. I even graduated, Like
I didn't do the four year. I get three and
a half. I was three and a half and I
was done early. And I told myself, you know, everyone
of course when they're leaving high school, I'll get my
bachelor's and then I'm done. I don't want to do
any more school ever ever ever again. Well, then after

(12:38):
I finished my bachelor's. You know, it's funny, I blame
my dad for most of this too, because after I
finished my bachelor's, he goes, well, why don't you get
your masters? And I was like, I don't know. So
of course, then I started looking around and going, okay, well,
if I wanted to get a master's, what programs are
around here that I could that would be available for
me to get my masters in? And of course then
I found the one that I get my degree in

(13:00):
engineering management, and I said, well, this looks interesting. I
think I can do this. And then I had to,
you know, prove to myself that I could do it.
Similarly soon as I finished, you know, my masters, of course,
you know, told my dad I'm done. I finished my master's.
He's like, well, why don't you get your PhD? And
I was like, So then I happened to look around
and go, okay, what's available, you know in this realm

(13:21):
for PhDs? You know, is it anything that I would
even be interested in? And of course then I found
the PhD program and organizational leadership and at the time
we had to focus on had a sub focus on
governmental agencies. And I said, well, Dad, gone it this
is this is right up my avenue, and you know,
I think I can do this, and so I challenged
myself to do that, and it's it's kind of been

(13:43):
the same way even with my career. It's just kind
of like, okay, well I've conquered this is this? Am
I okay? Or do I feel like I have the
next challenge that I want to tackle? And so that
kind of be like my driving force.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Now I think you have a lot more to go
because you're being modest. You on fire. You completed a
traditional in your PAHD program in four years. Yeah, yes,
that is not normal.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
Yes, And that was that was my challenge to myself too.
And when we sat through orientation and everyone asked the question,
because of course everyone's first question is well, how quickly
can I be done? And you know, they're like, well,
I mean, technically, if you need all the requirements, you
could be done in three years. But you know, people
on average take about southern you know, it just depends

(14:33):
on what's going on. So I was like, all right,
three years. It's like when you set the GPS on
your car and it tells you you're going to be
there at eleven fifty and you're like, oh no, we're
gonna be there by eleven forty five.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
So you've said, oh, there's an urban legend about someone right,
three years, okay, let me Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:51):
So I was like, all right, gold set, I know
what's the target. And you know, so that You've got
a little frustrated with myself because I hit your three
and I was like, I'm not ready to I am
nowhere close to being ready to defend or graduate or anything.
So it took me. It took me four years, and
you know, I got a little frustrated with myself. But
it's just me being frustrated to myself. There was nobody

(15:12):
else being frustrated, you know. With me. It was like
somebody was saying, how dare you take four years?

Speaker 2 (15:17):
Right? Exactly? Yeah. I think I kind of felt the
same way. I did finish in five, but let me
see twelve me two. Yeah, I finished in five, and
I even was frustrated with myself too because I thought, man,
I I could have been finished last year.

Speaker 3 (15:32):
But you know, I think it's the.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
Passion of a leader. When you know that you are
a born leader, You're so ambitious and you really want
to excel in everything that you do, whether you are
sweeping the floor as a custodian absolutely literal rocket scientist
like yourself. And just like I said, just hearing your
passion in the area a stem is unheard of. And

(15:57):
it goes back to this saying that now I see
it as actually true that if you do what you love,
you'll never work another day. It's like it's almost like
you know, you sound the passion comes through and that
you would virtually do it for free. But we're not
talking about that anything free ever. It's just a metaphor, folks. Okay,

(16:18):
get that paycheck. Now. You are, like I said, relatively
young to hold the title of chief because you are
an overachiever. How do you go to the respect of
managing such a large team, and I imagine there's different
age ranges on your team. What makes you an outstanding
leader with them?

Speaker 3 (16:36):
So a case that I think is having the compassion,
you know, recognizing that we're all human, we all have
lives outside of work, and we all try as most
as we can to kind of separate that, but at
some point, there's a little bit, you know, if overlip
between our personal lives and and work and having that

(16:58):
compassion and being able to do relatable with people just
because I'm the chief doesn't mean I'm not approachable, I'm
not talkable. I mean is they all say I put
my pants on one leg at a time like everybody else,
And I have struggles. You guys have struggles. Like, let's
work these struggles together. Let's figure out what we need
to do to get to this finish line. And that's

(17:18):
you know, for anything big or small, and we're gonna
have challenges, and it's how do we tackle those challenges
and make it through to the other side. And it's
being able to be accountable and take ownership and sometimes say, yeah,
I didn't make the right decision on that, and I apologize, Like,
let's figure out how we don't make that mistake again,

(17:40):
and let's figure out what we can learn from this
and move forward. But you know, and really asking people,
what do you need from me to help you be
the best you? What do you need from me in
order to do your job the best that you can?
What are the boundaries and the blockers that are in
your way that I can help move to allow you

(18:01):
to do your job the best that you can. So
that's a big piece of it to me, is just
making sure that people have all the tools that they
need to be able to succeed. And I don't mean
tools just as in resources and everything, but tools in
their own personal toolboxes. Tools like making sure that people
have been offered the great development opportunities to best tackle

(18:25):
the situations that they're going to face. So that's important too.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
I mean, that's what transformational leaders do. And it sounds
like the need to have that work life balance or
that personal balance is so prevalent today in terms of leadership.
A lot of times they are unapproachable and seem unrelatable,
or they are just pushing out resources, a list or

(18:52):
a checklist of this is what you can do. You know,
if a doesn't work, try be But to be able
to develop that personal relationship with your staff is golden.
And I want to shoot a little bit too, because
I want to talk about how you handle your own
work life balance with all of your accomplishments, because you
did all of this married and and then you had

(19:13):
kids and was still on the move. And you said
earlier how your mom basically came out of the navy,
and I don't know that may have been a great
sacrifice for her to come out of the navy once
she was pregnant with you because you know now and
you know I was in a militarian in my days.
We had to sign over custody. They were like you
having a baby, Okay, well you come right, but sign

(19:37):
over tustody and come on back to you know, to
your job. So how do you manage your work life balance?

Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah, so that actually a piece of that, I will say,
actually helped shape a little bit of my career trajectory too,
because I did recognize that not only did I want
to diversify my resume to kind of, you know, find
some of those areas that I hadn't had a chance
to tackle and work in yet, but also I need

(20:06):
to find some work life balance because at the time
I had one small child and was getting ready to
have my second child, and recognize I've wanted to make
sure that I was there and able to do things
with them and have those memories with them, and so
it's important to me to make sure to have that division,
but at the same time also make sure that my

(20:28):
family kind of understands and respect sometimes when I say, hey,
I've got to support something for work, that they know
it's not all the time. They know that they're my priority,
and I will explain to them, Hey, I've got a
meeting that I need to cover. I need an hour
to take care of this, or hey, give me two minutes.
I just had a message pup in I need to
respond to somebody real quick about something that's going on.
So they have a chance to see, yes, sometimes mommy

(20:51):
needs to take care of something, but yeah, Mommy's still
going to come and go have fun with us.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
Now again, I don't know how you do it because
you have to a firefighter and part of the water
rescue team. Now that was to one outside looking in,
one would say, Okay, the balance is on her free time.
She's still chasing or doing something. How does that passion
aligne with your family or with your with your your profession,

(21:20):
I mean firefighter and water rescue team. That's just amazing.
So the bell rings in the middle of the night
and you're you're up and at them.

Speaker 3 (21:28):
So I have taken a little bit of a step
back from doing a lot of guys, especially since I
had kids, because my husband is also a firefighter and
water rescue technician. Actually I claim that he's the reason
that I joined. He was there before me and I said, hey,
what's this about? How her, can this be again? One
of those like goals that I set for myself was, Hey,
I think I can do this. Let's see if I
can do this.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
The middle of your life of pushing you overboard, yes,
so pushing you through the glass ceiling, I should say.
It's almost like you know how someone puts their hand
together and they tell you put your foot on so
you can get over the hut they have catapulted to
throw the feeling.

Speaker 3 (22:08):
So I joined the fire company and I was much
more active with calls before having kids. But obviously we
you know, both can't roll out of the house at
the same time with small kids when the calls job,
so I had taken even a while back. It's about
two thousand and six. It's going to be twenty years
next year. I took on some administrative support for the
fire department as well, so I've been their treasure since
two thousand and six. So yes, that takes some time

(22:30):
as well, making sure all the books are kept up,
all the bills are paid, you know, anytime we need
to go out and request grants to support stuff. Because
again we're all volunteer and all voluncher organizations, so there's
not like a group in the back that's helping you
raise money when we need a new engine, or we
need a new tanker, or we need new gear or
a lot of my role of late has been helping

(22:51):
more on that side of submitting for grants, making sure
that we're getting funding that we need, helping cour date
fund raisers for different things. So in the fund part
is now that my kids are you know, they're nine
and five, now that they can come and help with
these things. And so it's also teaching them that pay
it forward of always you know, helping someone else and

(23:12):
helping the community. And so they get to come out
to our fundraisers and they help me. My daughter helps
me at the cashier station and taking money and she's
working on her math skills and learning how to count
change back to people and you know, learning how to
interface with customers and provide that customer service. So it's
a great opportunity for them to see, you know, how

(23:33):
to give back to their community and help out in
some of these organizations.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
Absolutely training your kids and the way they should go
and bringing up that next generation and all those are
excellent and necessary skills. I mean, and you know, I
hope the families that are listening, remember that take your
kids with you on the fundraisers and get them involved
in the community as early as possible, and teach them

(23:59):
how to give back to society. I just loved it.
And you know, we talked about, you know, how the
men in your life sort of pushed you through that
you would be there without hammer like uh huh, like
the or maybe I want to know, are there any
challenges that you faith in your field as a woman,
because typically it is dominated by men.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
Absolutely. Yeah, So there's definitely been some challenges, not just
as a woman, but also from an age perspective of
being young. I mean, you know, when I was coming
up on the meevy side in my field, I was,
you know, not just a female in a pretty male
dominated world, but I was also young and rising quickly

(24:41):
through my career. And you get people who you find
those people who want to challenge you, well what do
you know? Well, how do you know that? And the
one good thing I will say, you know, there's lots
of challenges, but the one good thing is I never
have to wait in line for the bathroom during meetings
and conferences. It's starting to change a little bit. Is
there to get some more women in the field. But I

(25:01):
just used to always chuckle as there's a lot of
them in's room, and I'm like, see you later, boys.
But yeah, I mean, and it really is. I had
to learn a while back not to take it personal,
you know, because I would take it personal. Well, I
don't understand why they don't trust me, or they are questioning,
you know, my knowledge in this topic, or I had

(25:22):
to kind of learn not to take it personal, like
that's a challenge within that person that they don't agree
with whatever it is that I'm a female, or that
I'm young, or you know, how do I have the
experience to deal with these things. So I try not
to take it personal. But I also remind myself and
this was something that I was told as I was

(25:44):
prepping to go into my dissertation. Defense is you're the
expert on this topic. Like if you know it, be
confident in it. And that's the same thing like when
I go into a room to talk, and especially on
a technical topic, like I remind myself you know this,
you know this inside and out stand behind what you know.

(26:06):
You know, lay out the facts like put that out there,
and that helps also build that respect and rapport with
people because they feel that confidence from you that you know,
you're confident in what you're saying and what you're standing
behind and what these facts are and what this decision
is that you're making, you know, and being able to
explain that, and that it provides that relatability a little bit,

(26:26):
but also just kind of builds that they're confidence in
you that you know what you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
I love that standing strong and confidence in what you
know and be that not being intimidated by others because
I feel personally feel we're all here for a purpose
and there can be no other Cindy Petrotski, you know
what I mean. It has to be help. And I
hope that people remember that if we're all here to
serve purpose, we're not just here taking up space just breathing.

(26:57):
And if you are, I mean, come on one, do
what you love. Do what you love and is as
you can see, passion shines through. I want to know
do you have a particular idol or a mentor in
your field, especially with it being so male dominated. Do
they assign or a scribe mentors to you or do
you have people that you idolize on your own I.

Speaker 3 (27:18):
Kind of had some unofficial mentors through my journeys, and
couple have been male, which they can help for a
good bit, especially just kind of outlining like career paths
and how to you know, move your career forward. But
I've also had strategic women that have come into my life.
And you said it, you know the things, there's no coincidences,

(27:38):
And I feel like the women that have come into
my life have strategically come into my life to help
mentor me through certain phases of my career unofficially, you know,
mentor me through, and they were such great resources for
me to go how did you handle this? And especially
when they went through a time that was even more
male dominated than a time that I've gone through, It's like,

(27:59):
how did you handle this? How did you deal with
people who said this? Like how do I kind of
break through that? And Yeah, I can look back and
I think I've had strategic female influences at different times
it throughout my life and my career that it's like, yeah,
that person was brought through my path for a reason.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
What do you think it'll take to get more women
involved in and find your industry?

Speaker 3 (28:23):
I mean, I think it really takes the involvement in
an early age. And that's why I'm a huge proponent
for STEM early even down to the elementary schools and
the middle schools, because that's where they get a chance.
You know, there's sparks are flying and you can see
it in their eyes when they do something and it's like, oh,

(28:45):
that's why that does that, Like you can see that,
and then they want to do it more. They want
to play with it more, they want to figure out
more on how it does it. I will say my
my AHA moment was in between my eighth grade and
ninth grade year, you know, getting ready to go into
high school. We had learned about a program that University
of Maryland College Park hosted called Physics is Fun and

(29:06):
Fun with a pH and I said something to my
dad about being able to attend it, and so he
inquired with him and fortunately we found out that it
was like there wasn't lodging involved as meant for a local. Well,
the dean of the department had heard that I was inquiring,
you know, and that, but you know, I wasn't going
to have a lodging because I was going to be
from the Eastern Shore. And the secretary actually offered up

(29:30):
a guest bedroom for me to stay in for the
two weeks of the summer course. And it was The
course itself was awesome, but what was just as awesome
was because I was there hanging out on cupus while
the secretary you know, was working during the day. One
of the head professors up there in the physics department
would go come with me and I got like these

(29:52):
one on one like personal lessons of all these like
we got. We went to the basement where all like
the experiments were and I got to do all these
fun cool experiments and learn about the physics at the
same time. I mean, I shot a pencil through a
piece of plywood and yeah, with like a compressor, and
the pencil came out whole came or it staged within
the plywood, but it came out the other side full
with a point on it. And it's like, you know,

(30:13):
learning the physics of Okay, well, if how can you
have enough pressure to send an object through another object
and it doesn't destroy it? You know, we learned about wavelength.
I got to see liquid nitrogen and play with that.
It was like that that summer was my aha of
I want to do this stuff like this stuff is cool,
which I guess is why it's called physics is fun.
But yeah, that summer experience was like my aha, I

(30:37):
know I'm going into a science field moment.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
Wow, it sounds like fun. And you what you're talking
about is that hand people, hands on human engagement in
real time. And I think that's what concerns me about
the rise of AI, is that some of these topics
or industries as we know it vastly changing. I mean
even the traditional STEM as we know it is changing

(31:02):
in what ways?

Speaker 3 (31:03):
For you?

Speaker 2 (31:04):
Does the laws of AI help or hinder the future
of STEM as we know it?

Speaker 3 (31:08):
I think it's just going to change how we know it.
AI is another tool, just like every other tool that
we have. And again, AI is only as good as
we make it. But AI is going to be another tool.
It's just like when we moved into the realm of
having computers at work, everyone said computers are going to
replace our jobs. No, we need computers. Noves so a lot,
you know, but we got away from a lot of

(31:30):
paper processing because we were able to now process things digitally.
We've made things more efficient because we can route documents
for signature across the country, you know, digitally versus having
to transfer a paper from office to office to sign it.
AI is just going to be another one of those tools,
and we're going to learn how to use it in
the field to help make our fields more efficient and

(31:54):
I don't want to say faster, but part of it
is trying to figure out how we can gain efficiency
with it as well. And I don't I don't think
it's going to replace us, but it may just change
the way that we approach problems and look at problems
and use it, like I said, as another tool for
how we come up with solutions to things.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
Yeah, I hear you. No, No, I actually I actually
agree with you, and I think it I think it's
only as good as the human makes it. And yes
and the like. You can throw stuff and chat GBT,
but it's only going to spit out the right information
if you ask the right questions.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
So yes, And it's also I mean, it's also based
off of all of the data that it's it's looking
at employee from so chat GPT for instances, you know,
looking at a broader library of data, you know, some
of these smaller ais. You know, it's based off of
that data that you're feeding into it for how it's

(32:55):
formulating what that answer looks like. And it could be
wrong too, because again it's based off off of what
you're feeding into it. And we've started looking a little
bit into AI stuff, so I've had a chance to
see a little bit of what it does and kind
of understand like how it's building out some of its answers,
and it really is. It's it's a tool. You know,
it's going to be based off of data and data

(33:16):
out and what its sources are that it can look
at for that. But I think just as just like
we moved in the world of computer science from facing
to four TRAN two C plus plus the Python, you know,
AI is going to be another one of those huge
fronts in the stemfront. So as we've gotten more and
more looking for programmers and cybersecurity and IT security type

(33:38):
folks in these science fields, AI is going to be
that next one that so many people are looking for.
How can we build out this AI tool to support
the programs that we need. Not going to say that
it's going to go, you know, to DoD but if
it's ever looked at as being a tool for duty,
how can we build out this AI tool to support
you know, the dood functions and operations and help on that,

(34:00):
and it's going to be up to those people to
build it out. There's engineers that are going to help
build that AI product. So just like again the computer
software engineering and understanding how to code in those languages,
I see that as kind of being the next front
in the STEM field, in the IT field for development.
You know.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
I was at a meeting some years ago. It was
a private meeting, and they were discussing blockchain, sort of
like when it was in its early stages. And they
also was showing us how the eighteen wheeler process or
the eighteen wheelers would be taken over or could be
remotely given without a driver. And I thought, man, it

(34:41):
seems dangerous, you know, but okay, you go up, you know.
And I was open to, you know, the ideas of it,
and I was really just there as a guest and
more there for the blockchain piece of it, at the
nuances of the blockchain and how it works overseas. But now,
of course today we do have some states that have
politic the yes, yeah, and so there are no drivers,

(35:03):
so that is you know, I think that's what people
get afraid of and I'm wondering. You know you need both,
you know, I think you know you need you need both.
But anyway, so do you ever think that, for example,
would a Navy fleet be operated strictly my AI, remotely
by itself or something like that? Do you see that?

Speaker 3 (35:26):
I mean that's a good question. I mean I think
anything is possible. I mean, would we have thought ten
years ago, twenty years ago that we would have UAVs
on the battle build, that we would have you know,
these unmanned vehicles and not just the quad copters that
you can buy off the shelves, but these you know,
larger unmanned vehicles helping our war fighters out on the battle.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
Ground saves lives.

Speaker 3 (35:50):
Yeah, yeah, we'd probably say, heck, no, how can you
do something without having a pilot or how you know,
how are you going to do this without having you know,
that person out there doing it. But we've really got
to that point of how can we make things unmanned
that can still do the mission and provide that safety
for our people as well? So yeah, I would say

(36:11):
I wouldn't be surprised if you know, one day AI
is not involved in helping out on that battlefield.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yeah, and in the lines that it saves when it's
used properly, and you still need people to develop the
software and the instruments and all of that. So I
think people have to really embrace technology, whatever industry in
your hand, because is happening. Like you said, I remember

(36:40):
when the email came out and I thought, oh my god,
I can send a message.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
Yes, yes, And while I'm young, I can say that
I still remember doing a taper time card when I
first started.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
That was the craziest thing to me. So technology in
itself is good. It is the people who use it,
whether they want to use it for good or bad.
That's a care to another leadership topic because people have
anything to band well.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
And it's also an interesting and interesting dynamic talking with
that because of course, you know, we want to push
this edge on technology and we want to move fast
and develop this technology. But at the same time, we
also want to make sure that we're doing it correctly
and we're doing it safely, and we're doing it and
what makes sense. And so you know, there's that regulation
piece and like that policy piece that you know, we're
kind of looking for people to develop and it's kind

(37:31):
of that chicken in a how fast can we push it?
But how can we also make sure that we're kind
of regulating to make sure people aren't doing grogue or
bad things with it? And you know, we see that
with a lot of the things that we do. I mean,
like you've mentioned the self driving cars. You know, we're
seeing regulations now that are coming out for like how
that can be implemented and what they have to be
able to do and what safety factors they have to
demonstrate with it. And I can see you know, I

(37:53):
know it's been a big topic as of late with AI,
like who's going to regulate what the rules are for AI?
But I can I can definitely see coming down in
the future, you know, guidance and policy for like if
you're going to develop these or considerations, you know, got
to make sure that there's no harm to people the
usual things with it. So it'll be interesting if you
have the policy and the regulations kind of pace with

(38:15):
the development of AIS.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah, and speaking of which, you recently did a presentation
or on I think it was institutional and Operational safety.
I didn't try to get the PowerPoint and it wasn't
any because you know, you guys have things safe. The
question is is there room for innovation with the need
to maintain code and colde quality and stability or is

(38:39):
it sort of a black and white issue there's no
room for innovation in maintaining operational safety and stability.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
There is some room. The biggest thing that we have
to consider is ultimately the safety of the people who
are doing it. So are there ways that we can
do things differently or with different tools that still maintain
the safety of personnel, because that is the biggest thing,
you know, we want everyone to go home at the
end of the day. We want everyone to be safe
doing what we do, and what we do in our

(39:09):
field we know is extremely hazardous. The hazards that we
work around every day for any type of launch or range,
whether it be something from as small as a UAB
to something as large as rocket that you know we're
sending to orbit. Ultimately, we want to make sure that
that safety is provided for all of the personnel and
that everyone goes home at the end of the day.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Have you ever experienced well, maybe that's not a good question,
and I ask about loss of life, but and I
was only thinking about that, not just in the frame
of your job. But because you have been a volunteer firefighter, yeah,
under the rescue team. How do you deal with those
because I mean you sound happy and you've always been,

(39:50):
you know, happy and you know, just a sort of,
like you said, relatable, cheery personality. How do you deal
with the tensions of whether it's your volunteer work or
your job. Me, we go to therapy? Should everybody go
to therapy?

Speaker 3 (40:03):
I mean the answer is yes, I have.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
I'm an opponent for everybody in America needs a therapist.

Speaker 3 (40:11):
Yes, because it really you have to figure out what
is the best way for you to process it. And
I mean so I have fortunately, very fortunately not had
to go through an incident where we have had a
loss of life through a job related incident. We've had
other mishabs, close calls, things like that, again because we
work in a bary hazardous environment, but we have not

(40:33):
had fortunately a loss of life and hope to continue that. However,
being with the fire Service, it is unfortunately something that
we see and I don't want to say more often,
you know than not, because a lot of calls are
being able to help people, but there is loss of
life that is in it and those stick with you
and you reflect on I mean sometimes you reflect on

(40:54):
that random times I drive past a place where I
know person that we responded to pasta and I think
about it when I drive past that place. But it's
also figuring out what you need to be able to
process through that stuff. And if it's talking to someone,
if it's talking to a colleague, a coworker, a family member,
if it's talking to a therapist, therapy does wonders, highly

(41:15):
advocate for it and it's not something you have to
do all the time. You know, some people are able
to recognize when they need to take that step to
go see a therapist to work through something, and then
when they don't, but they can do wonders. I mean,
I've gone several times when I know hit a point
where I'm like, I need to be able to talk
to someone about this, I need help processing through this.

(41:36):
And again, I know I keep referencing tools in the toolbox,
but that's what they are. They're another tool, you know,
when you hit that point that you go, I can't
do this by myself. I need someone to help me
through this. You know, they're that tool to help you
through it, big or small and so yeah, being able
to find and you don't always want to unload on
you know, your family member or your spouse or you know.

(41:58):
So sometimes they're that nice independence you know what, but
you find tho that is at works best for you.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
Thank you for that, because people need to be encouraged
and know that. I mean, every good leader that I
know and that I know personally are those that I
have study, they have therapists. I mean, everybody needs somebody
to talk to. And so it's just a worthy investment
in self care and self help. So I highly recommend that.

Speaker 3 (42:26):
It also goes back to how can you show up
and be the best for others if you're not at
your best? And it's taking you said it, the self care.
It's making sure that you're at your best so that
you know when you step foot in that room, you're
at your best for whoever it is. If it's your family,
if it's your coworkers, if it's whoever it is, you

(42:46):
know that you're at your best.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
Right and working out with someone who's actually paid and
skilled to do it, you know, Like yes, I mean
just invest in and people invest in all kinds of stuff,
whether they know it or not. Things that they love
or they how or whatever. It is such a worthy
investment and it has helped me tremendously through life and
leadership and life and family just life. Yeah, yeah, Now

(43:12):
I have a good question for you. I'm just curious.
You know that Texas has I think the best set
of firefighters in Texas called the hot Shots.

Speaker 3 (43:23):
Oh yeah, have you worked with them? I have not.
I have not. Ironically, so, our swift Water Team is
actually a deployable asset for the state of Maryland for
their emergency services, and we were actually on standby to
come deployed to Houston a few years back when the
hurricanes came through and they were so underwater. We ended

(43:43):
up getting canceled at the last minute, but we were
on a hot deployment at one point to come down
and support Texas.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
You have to let me know if you ever get
a call, because I have to give you some good
barbecue and yes, we'll come feed you while you can
do the rest. And you know, you you know where
Texas proud. And people just think I'd just be bragging,
but no, seriously, they really are known around the world
as being some of the best firefighters. In that group,

(44:10):
is I think it's called the Texas Kingan hot Shots
or something like that. But anyway, so let me know
if you ever be in town. I have one question
for you. Given your whole career and where you are
now and again your amazing feats so far, what do
you want your legacy to be or what is your
dream job? Some people who are teachers, they say, oh,

(44:31):
one day I want to be the secretary of education.
You know. Someone else may say, oh, who loves politics
and economics, they may say, oh, I want to be
president one day. Because I have a feeling you have
a big one, and if you don't, I don't believe you.
What do you want your legacy to be?

Speaker 3 (44:48):
That's interesting too. My kind of your term goal I
stayed your curb, five yearsh ten yearsh goal is you know,
because I feel like kind of each step is I
want to be able to need an influence, you know,
the successful direction of you know, the different groups and
the different orgs, and you know, ultimately I would love

(45:08):
to be able to lead NASA at wallups or even
on a little bit larger scale, to be successful in
all of the science that we're working and all of
the operations that we're doing to support the science and
the development of those technologies to help further. It's like
I would that's kind of on my you know, like

(45:28):
vision board of ultimate you know, kind of goals is
to be able to lead that organism, to lead the organization.
But I think legacy is also important, you know, not
just from where do I think my peak of my
mountain is, but also what people think of you when
you when you're not there, And so I really want

(45:49):
my legacy to be She cared, she listened, She was
there to help and lead us. And that's not just
for work but in life in general. For people to
kind of look back, what is it that they're gonna say,
you know, at the end, she cared, she listened, she
was there, she showed up, she helped. She you know,
wanted what was best for me. And you know, no

(46:11):
matter who that person is.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
Wow, I love that. I promise this is the last
one that's about it. Did you ever want to be
an astronaut? And if so, why didn't you because surely
you accomplished it.

Speaker 3 (46:28):
Yeah, I don't. Look, I'm going to tell you I
don't think I would have survived as an astronaut if
you ever watched Sandra Bullock's movie Gravity. I think I
spent half the movie theater or half the movie in
a panic attack, holding my bross because I just felt
like I couldn't breathe, and I was in space and
couldn't breathe. So I don't know that I would make
it very well. I'll keep my feet on the ground

(46:50):
and just helped make sure they have the tools they
need to be able to.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
Do make it back and form okay, yeah, and keep
this country safe. Yes, Oh my goodness, that's fair enough. Well.
Thank you so much, doctor Cindy Petrovsky for joining us today, and.

Speaker 3 (47:06):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (47:07):
I have no doubt that your legacy will be She cared,
she listened, she helped, and she led us.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
Thank you again, Thank you so much, and.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
Thank everyone for listening, and as always, thank you for
being a team player.

Speaker 1 (47:26):
Thank you for listening to Team Leadership Radio. Subscribe and
never miss an episode. We'd love to hear from you.
Give us a call at one eight four four A
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Speaker 2 (47:39):
Four t e e M.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
Or visit the website for additional resources at www dot
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as always, thank you for being a team player.