December 31, 2024 • 15 mins
The history of the LGBTQ movement has been lived — loudly and proudly — in the public spotlight, in the face of relentless opposition. Thousands marched on the U.S. Capitol to demand lesbian and gay rights in 1979. Forty-two million tuned in to hear Ellen DeGeneres declare, “I’m Gay” on her TV sitcom in 1997.
But millions more have made queer history in their own quiet, personal ways: living openly, supporting LGBTQ causes, and tying the knot in front of family and friends. For many, the process of coming out, finding friendship and love, and building community began in spaces hidden in place sight — in dive bars, leather bars, dance clubs, and taverns.
For a deeper dive into our collective past, journalist David Hunt talks with Art Smith, whose online archive, Gaybarchives, documents the storied history of the gay bar scene.
Journey back to the 1970s and 1980s and experience the specialized and often exclusive nature of gay bars post-Stonewall. Art Smith reveals how his project seeks to preserve the legacy of these influential venues, capturing the essence of a time when bars like the Hippopotamus in Baltimore were lifelines for many. As Daniel Jaffe recounts his eye-opening first night in Boston's gay scene, listeners will appreciate how these spaces once served as cultural classrooms, bridging generational gaps and fostering community connections. Join us in celebrating these establishments' transformative role in personal and collective journeys of self-discovery.
Links:
GayBarchives website
GayBarchives Facebook group
David Hunt is an Emmy-winning journalist and documentary producer who has reported on America's culture wars since the 1970s. Explore his blog, Tell Me, David.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Hunt (00:00):
Welcome to Tell Me, David, Queer Stories, Past and
Present.
This story originally aired onThis Way Out, the international
LGBTQ radio magazine.
You probably remember the firstgay bar you ever visited,
(00:26):
especially if you came out inthe days before dating apps like
Grindr, Scruff and Her.
Perhaps it was the OdysseyDisco in West Hollywood in the
late 1970s, or the Eagle, aleather bar in San Francisco's
South of Market neighborhood inthe 1980s, or my Sister's Room,
a lesbian bar in Midtown Atlantain the 1990s.
(00:47):
Whatever the era, gay bars havebeen central to the queer
experience for generations, assites of both protests and
parties.
In the United States, themodern gay liberation movement
traces its origins in the 1960sto demonstrations at several
clubs, notably the Stonewall Innin New York's Greenwich Village
.
South London's Royal VauxhallTavern attracted a gay clientele
(01:12):
as early as the 1940s, when ithosted drag shows that were
popular with soldiers returningfrom World War II.
In the late 80s, the tavernlived up to its royal moniker
when rocker Freddie Mercurysmuggled Princess Diana into the
club disguised as a man.
I'm David Hunt.
(01:43):
Every gay bar, it seems, fromgritty dives to glitzy hotspots,
has its stories to tell.
One man has made it his missionto collect them and share them
online.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Gay Barc hives Show, where
we explore gay history one barat a time.
(02:04):
I'm your host, Art Smith, andour guest today is author Daniel
M Jaffe, who will be telling usabout his favorite bars from
Boston's colorful gay past.
I'll play an excerpt from ArtSmith's interview with Daniel
Jaffe in a bit, but first alittle background.
Smith's gay history project,Gay Barchives, is exactly what
(02:28):
it sounds like an online archivethat preserves the memory of
scores of gay bars.
Gay plus bar plus archivesequals Gay Barchives.
The project, which Smithlaunched during the COVID
pandemic, has a number of movingparts.
There's the YouTube channel,where Smith posts hour-long
interviews with people likeJaffe, including bar owners, bar
(02:51):
patrons, bar employees and eventhe occasional academic
researcher, All related to gaybars.
The Gayb a rchives Facebookpage has 10,000 followers and
counting, who share theirpersonal stories and connect or
reconnect in some cases withother gay bar veterans, and the
Gayb ar chives.
com website includes ane-commerce shop that sells
(03:14):
T-shirts and other merchemblazoned with the logos of
popular gay bars of the past andpresent.
I sat down with Smith and askedhim about the enduring role of
the gay bar scene in the LGBTQplus experience.
Art Smith (03:28):
You know, I've kind of compared them to community
centers, churches, meeting hallsall rolled up into one, because
so much of our history iswrapped around the bar scene and
it's not just about drinking,it's about socializing.
I remember back, as you weresaying, in the late 70s, into
(03:49):
the 80s, I would go out seven oreight nights a week.
It didn't matter if it was aschool night or not.
After you went to dinner with afriend, you would go to the bar
just to see somebody that waslike you and have a common
experience.
Whether or not you were goingto drink, it was.
You know, it's the place thatwe organized all of our
(04:09):
nonprofit organizations thatfight for us, the, you know
whether it's GLAAD or HRC orEquality all of these groups
kind of have their roots in thegay bar scene, kind of have
their roots in the gay bar scene.
Of course, all of the uprisingsStonewall, black Knight, black
(04:31):
Cat they all happened in bars.
So the bars are really kind ofthe foundation of our community
back then.
David Hunt (04:33):
There are still plenty of gay bars around an
estimated 800 in the UnitedStates alone but that number was
about twice as high in theearly 1980s, the good old days
before the internet, dating appsand the AIDS epidemic.
For those too young to rememberthe decadent decade after
Stonewall, I asked Smith to takeus back in time.
(04:53):
Turns out it wasn't all thatinclusive.
Art Smith (04:58):
They were very specialized.
Let's say back in the 70s whatI was seeing back then, a lot of
the bars had a very specificconcept, a very specific flavor
and those bars would enforce therules so that they could
maintain that identity.
So there were bars that wouldonly allow white men with
(05:22):
leather harnesses or leatherpants or whatever.
Women were not allowed in, guysin polo shirts were not allowed
in.
Guys wearing cologne were notallowed in.
It was a very specific market.
They were targeting A lot ofthe Eagle bars.
(05:58):
They did not allow women, theydid not allow drag queens, they
did not allow eff leather bar ora disco.
They had specific identitiesand you did not see as much
crossover, even with lesbians inthe bars that were for men.
It was very segmented.
I didn't even think about ituntil I got into this project.
David Hunt (06:21):
Now let's listen to an excerpt of author Daniel
Jaffe's Barch ives interview inwhich he remembers the first gay
bar he frequented, Sporters inBoston in the late 1970s.
The first time he went with afriend, the second time well,
that's where the story getsinteresting.
Daniel Jaffe (06:37):
I was still very nervous about it.
I'd never been to a gay bar onmy own.
So a few weeks went by and Ithink it was a Friday night.
I decided I'm going to go andno matter what happens, it just
happens I'm going to experiencegay life.
So gradually the bar filled upand then at some point probably
around 10, the bartender bringsme another beer, which I hadn't
(07:02):
ordered because I still hadn'tfinished my first one after
about two hours and he saidsomebody down at the end of the
bar sent you this beer.
And I thought, oh my gosh, it'slike being in one of those
romantic movies, those rom-comthings.
And so I looked at the end ofthe bar and there was a guy a
bit older than me and maybe 10years older, and he raised his
beer bottle to me.
(07:23):
I raised to him the one thathad been sent to me and I knew
from the movies, when someonedoes that, you're supposed to go
over.
So I went over to him andthanked him.
We started chatting and thenthe next thing it just shows how
naive I was.
So while I'm chatting with him,a friend of his comes over and
sticks his tongue in my ear.
So I didn't know what to do soI just ignored it.
(07:45):
So this guy kept his tongue inmy ear while I'm talking to his
friend.
It was very strange.
And then a couple of otherfriends of theirs came in and
they decided they were all goingback to an apartment.
Did I want to join them Now?
I had never gone home withanyone from a bar before, but I
(08:08):
had said to myself, you know,anything goes tonight.
So I said, okay, I'll go withyou, not having a clue as to
what I might be getting myselfinto.
So we walked a few blocks, theybought beer, we go up to his
apartment, we go in and thereare these two giant Irish
setters that he's house-sittingfor who are jumping around.
Okay, fine, well, we sit around.
(08:30):
For some reason they put I LoveLucy reruns on TV.
I mean, I was just lookingaround this little living room
and they're passing a joint andof course, good Jewish boy that
I was, I had never smoked, so Ijust sort of held the joint and
didn't smoke it and then passedit and they all noticed and
commented on it.
So I'm getting increasinglyembarrassed.
(08:51):
Okay, they're drinking anddrinking.
And finally the two friendsthey had brought aboard and they
leave the guy who's the Tom guywhose apartment it is.
He passes out in the bedroom.
So now it's me and the guy whoordered me the beer on his sofa
and then he passes out.
Now by this time it's already2.30 in the morning and by then
(09:12):
the T in Boston, the subway hasstopped running and I was still
new to the city and didn't havea sense of how else to get home.
So I figured, well, I'll justwait on the sofa until 5.30 in
the morning when the tea runsagain.
And then the two Irish settersjumped up the sofa and wanted to
cuddle on my lap.
So I slept with the two dogs,and the way I think of it is my
(09:37):
first experience at a gay bar isI slept with two hairy beasts
and it went just fine.
And actually in the morningwhen I left, I was thrilled
because I thought I can do this,I can handle this.
I can handle going home withfour men.
It's no big deal.
David Hunt (10:06):
You're listening to this Way Out the international
LGBTQ radio magazine.
I'm David Hunt, continuing myconversation with Art Smith, who
spearheads the Gayb ar chivesProject.
Back in the 1970s, when I cameout, bars were a place where
(10:29):
older gays would sometimes takeyounger gays under their wing in
terms of telling them about gayhistory, gay culture, that sort
of thing.
Have any of your guests talkedabout that?
Art Smith (10:37):
Yeah, and it's very much true.
Especially, you know, as wewere talking about, the bars
were kind of segmented in thestyle that they were.
So the waters that were morelocal watering holes,
neighborhood bars, holes in thewall, things of that nature that
you could actually sit down andhave a conversation.
Those bars very much had thatfeeling.
(10:57):
I've had people tell me whetherit was talking about an
experience at Julius in New Yorkor talking about you know
something from Atlanta or LAthat very often that happened,
that they met people and satthere and had conversations with
them and learned about, youknow, not only the other person
but also about gay stuff,because we did not have ready
(11:25):
information at our fingertips.
So if you are new to an area ornew to the, you know being out,
you needed other people toguide you because you were not
going to find out.
There were not rainbow flagsflapping in front of the
businesses, they were mostlykind of underground and
incognito.
David Hunt (11:40):
Of the 150 interviews you've conducted so
far, can you think of a guestwhose experience really stands
out?
Art Smith (11:46):
You probably didn't stumble across it, it was an
interview from several years agoa guy named Ted Binkley who I
knew personally from Atlanta.
He was a partner in bothIllusions, which was Atlanta's
drag showcase, and also in CrazyRays, and then later, after he
(12:06):
left Atlanta, opened a barcalled Zippers in I believe it
was Montgomery, Alabama.
But when I interviewed him, oneof the questions I always used
to ask people is what was thefirst gay bar you went to and
what was that experience likefor you?
You went to and what was thatexperience like for you?
And he responded that it was alittle bar in downtown Nashville
(12:28):
, Tennessee, and he was not oldenough to go in yet.
But back at that, in those daysthey were kind of underground
bars anyway and if you lookedresponsible and gay you weren't
going to cause trouble, they letyou in anyway.
Well, it turns out thatexperience for him was in 1952.
So it was 72 years ago andthere are not a lot of people
(12:54):
out there that you can find thatcan talk about going to a gay
bar 72 years ago.
David Hunt (13:00):
As I wrapped up my conversation with Art Smith, it
seemed only fair to ask himabout his first gay bar
experience.
It happened when he visited afriend, a former boyfriend,
actually in 1978.
Art Smith (13:13):
So we went out to dinner.
I went down to see him atschool in Baltimore and we went
out to dinner and after dinnerhe said hey, I heard there's a
cool bar across the street.
Let's go over there and checkit out.
And so he did and ordered adrink and I'm standing there,
maybe a foot or two above thedance floor it's a little
elevated platform and I'msipping on my drink and looking
(13:36):
at the dance floor and after acouple of minutes I looked at
Mark and I said everybody on thedance floor is male.
And he said yeah, I know.
And I said what's up with that?
He said well, my roommate, jim,told me about this place and
it's a gay bar.
And I was in shock because thatwas the first time I'd been in a
gay bar.
It was called the Hippopotamus,one of the most iconic bars
(14:00):
from Baltimore.
It, I think, lasted until 2015.
So it was there for quite along time.
It's now a CVS, if you want togo visit it.
And it just changed myperspective completely because
all of a sudden, I now knew thatthere was a gay community.
It wasn't just a couple ofrandom people me and Mark and a
(14:20):
few others somewhere, but therewere actually hundreds and
thousands of us all over theplace and it kind of opened the
door to a new lifestyle.
David Hunt (14:36):
I'd like to thank my guest, Art Smith, who curates
the Gayba rchives Project atGaybarchives.
com, and to anyone who remembersmy first gay bar, Monroe's in
Hawthorne, California.
The beat goes on.
For This Way Out.
I'm David Hunt.
Welcome to Tell Me, David, Queer Stories, Past and
Present.
This story originally aired onThis Way Out, the international
LGBTQ radio magazine.
You probably remember the firstgay bar you ever visited,
(00:26):
especially if you came out inthe days before dating apps like
Grindr, Scruff and Her.
Perhaps it was the OdysseyDisco in West Hollywood in the
late 1970s, or the Eagle, aleather bar in San Francisco's
South of Market neighborhood inthe 1980s, or my Sister's Room,
a lesbian bar in Midtown Atlantain the 1990s.
(00:47):
Whatever the era, gay bars havebeen central to the queer
experience for generations, assites of both protests and
parties.
In the United States, themodern gay liberation movement
traces its origins in the 1960sto demonstrations at several
clubs, notably the Stonewall Innin New York's Greenwich Village
.
South London's Royal VauxhallTavern attracted a gay clientele
(01:12):
as early as the 1940s, when ithosted drag shows that were
popular with soldiers returningfrom World War II.
In the late 80s, the tavernlived up to its royal moniker
when rocker Freddie Mercurysmuggled Princess Diana into the
club disguised as a man.
I'm David Hunt.
(01:43):
Every gay bar, it seems, fromgritty dives to glitzy hotspots,
has its stories to tell.
One man has made it his missionto collect them and share them
online.
Welcome to another episode ofthe Gay Barc hives Show, where
we explore gay history one barat a time.
(02:04):
I'm your host, Art Smith, andour guest today is author Daniel
M Jaffe, who will be telling usabout his favorite bars from
Boston's colorful gay past.
I'll play an excerpt from ArtSmith's interview with Daniel
Jaffe in a bit, but first alittle background.
Smith's gay history project,Gay Barchives, is exactly what
(02:28):
it sounds like an online archivethat preserves the memory of
scores of gay bars.
Gay plus bar plus archivesequals Gay Barchives.
The project, which Smithlaunched during the COVID
pandemic, has a number of movingparts.
There's the YouTube channel,where Smith posts hour-long
interviews with people likeJaffe, including bar owners, bar
(02:51):
patrons, bar employees and eventhe occasional academic
researcher, All related to gaybars.
The Gayb a rchives Facebookpage has 10,000 followers and
counting, who share theirpersonal stories and connect or
reconnect in some cases withother gay bar veterans, and the
Gayb ar chives.
com website includes ane-commerce shop that sells
(03:14):
T-shirts and other merchemblazoned with the logos of
popular gay bars of the past andpresent.
I sat down with Smith and askedhim about the enduring role of
the gay bar scene in the LGBTQplus experience.
Art Smith (03:28):
You know, I've kind of compared them to community
centers, churches, meeting hallsall rolled up into one, because
so much of our history iswrapped around the bar scene and
it's not just about drinking,it's about socializing.
I remember back, as you weresaying, in the late 70s, into
(03:49):
the 80s, I would go out seven oreight nights a week.
It didn't matter if it was aschool night or not.
After you went to dinner with afriend, you would go to the bar
just to see somebody that waslike you and have a common
experience.
Whether or not you were goingto drink, it was.
You know, it's the place thatwe organized all of our
(04:09):
nonprofit organizations thatfight for us, the, you know
whether it's GLAAD or HRC orEquality all of these groups
kind of have their roots in thegay bar scene, kind of have
their roots in the gay bar scene.
Of course, all of the uprisingsStonewall, black Knight, black
(04:31):
Cat they all happened in bars.
So the bars are really kind ofthe foundation of our community
back then.
David Hunt (04:33):
There are still plenty of gay bars around an
estimated 800 in the UnitedStates alone but that number was
about twice as high in theearly 1980s, the good old days
before the internet, dating appsand the AIDS epidemic.
For those too young to rememberthe decadent decade after
Stonewall, I asked Smith to takeus back in time.
(04:53):
Turns out it wasn't all thatinclusive.
Art Smith (04:58):
They were very specialized.
Let's say back in the 70s whatI was seeing back then, a lot of
the bars had a very specificconcept, a very specific flavor
and those bars would enforce therules so that they could
maintain that identity.
So there were bars that wouldonly allow white men with
(05:22):
leather harnesses or leatherpants or whatever.
Women were not allowed in, guysin polo shirts were not allowed
in.
Guys wearing cologne were notallowed in.
It was a very specific market.
They were targeting A lot ofthe Eagle bars.
(05:58):
They did not allow women, theydid not allow drag queens, they
did not allow eff leather bar ora disco.
They had specific identitiesand you did not see as much
crossover, even with lesbians inthe bars that were for men.
It was very segmented.
I didn't even think about ituntil I got into this project.
David Hunt (06:21):
Now let's listen to an excerpt of author Daniel
Jaffe's Barch ives interview inwhich he remembers the first gay
bar he frequented, Sporters inBoston in the late 1970s.
The first time he went with afriend, the second time well,
that's where the story getsinteresting.
Daniel Jaffe (06:37):
I was still very nervous about it.
I'd never been to a gay bar onmy own.
So a few weeks went by and Ithink it was a Friday night.
I decided I'm going to go andno matter what happens, it just
happens I'm going to experiencegay life.
So gradually the bar filled upand then at some point probably
around 10, the bartender bringsme another beer, which I hadn't
(07:02):
ordered because I still hadn'tfinished my first one after
about two hours and he saidsomebody down at the end of the
bar sent you this beer.
And I thought, oh my gosh, it'slike being in one of those
romantic movies, those rom-comthings.
And so I looked at the end ofthe bar and there was a guy a
bit older than me and maybe 10years older, and he raised his
beer bottle to me.
(07:23):
I raised to him the one thathad been sent to me and I knew
from the movies, when someonedoes that, you're supposed to go
over.
So I went over to him andthanked him.
We started chatting and thenthe next thing it just shows how
naive I was.
So while I'm chatting with him,a friend of his comes over and
sticks his tongue in my ear.
So I didn't know what to do soI just ignored it.
(07:45):
So this guy kept his tongue inmy ear while I'm talking to his
friend.
It was very strange.
And then a couple of otherfriends of theirs came in and
they decided they were all goingback to an apartment.
Did I want to join them Now?
I had never gone home withanyone from a bar before, but I
(08:08):
had said to myself, you know,anything goes tonight.
So I said, okay, I'll go withyou, not having a clue as to
what I might be getting myselfinto.
So we walked a few blocks, theybought beer, we go up to his
apartment, we go in and thereare these two giant Irish
setters that he's house-sittingfor who are jumping around.
Okay, fine, well, we sit around.
(08:30):
For some reason they put I LoveLucy reruns on TV.
I mean, I was just lookingaround this little living room
and they're passing a joint andof course, good Jewish boy that
I was, I had never smoked, so Ijust sort of held the joint and
didn't smoke it and then passedit and they all noticed and
commented on it.
So I'm getting increasinglyembarrassed.
(08:51):
Okay, they're drinking anddrinking.
And finally the two friendsthey had brought aboard and they
leave the guy who's the Tom guywhose apartment it is.
He passes out in the bedroom.
So now it's me and the guy whoordered me the beer on his sofa
and then he passes out.
Now by this time it's already2.30 in the morning and by then
(09:12):
the T in Boston, the subway hasstopped running and I was still
new to the city and didn't havea sense of how else to get home.
So I figured, well, I'll justwait on the sofa until 5.30 in
the morning when the tea runsagain.
And then the two Irish settersjumped up the sofa and wanted to
cuddle on my lap.
So I slept with the two dogs,and the way I think of it is my
(09:37):
first experience at a gay bar isI slept with two hairy beasts
and it went just fine.
And actually in the morningwhen I left, I was thrilled
because I thought I can do this,I can handle this.
I can handle going home withfour men.
It's no big deal.
David Hunt (10:06):
You're listening to this Way Out the international
LGBTQ radio magazine.
I'm David Hunt, continuing myconversation with Art Smith, who
spearheads the Gayb ar chivesProject.
Back in the 1970s, when I cameout, bars were a place where
(10:29):
older gays would sometimes takeyounger gays under their wing in
terms of telling them about gayhistory, gay culture, that sort
of thing.
Have any of your guests talkedabout that?
Art Smith (10:37):
Yeah, and it's very much true.
Especially, you know, as wewere talking about, the bars
were kind of segmented in thestyle that they were.
So the waters that were morelocal watering holes,
neighborhood bars, holes in thewall, things of that nature that
you could actually sit down andhave a conversation.
Those bars very much had thatfeeling.
(10:57):
I've had people tell me whetherit was talking about an
experience at Julius in New Yorkor talking about you know
something from Atlanta or LAthat very often that happened,
that they met people and satthere and had conversations with
them and learned about, youknow, not only the other person
but also about gay stuff,because we did not have ready
(11:25):
information at our fingertips.
So if you are new to an area ornew to the, you know being out,
you needed other people toguide you because you were not
going to find out.
There were not rainbow flagsflapping in front of the
businesses, they were mostlykind of underground and
incognito.
David Hunt (11:40):
Of the 150 interviews you've conducted so
far, can you think of a guestwhose experience really stands
out?
Art Smith (11:46):
You probably didn't stumble across it, it was an
interview from several years agoa guy named Ted Binkley who I
knew personally from Atlanta.
He was a partner in bothIllusions, which was Atlanta's
drag showcase, and also in CrazyRays, and then later, after he
(12:06):
left Atlanta, opened a barcalled Zippers in I believe it
was Montgomery, Alabama.
But when I interviewed him, oneof the questions I always used
to ask people is what was thefirst gay bar you went to and
what was that experience likefor you?
You went to and what was thatexperience like for you?
And he responded that it was alittle bar in downtown Nashville
(12:28):
, Tennessee, and he was not oldenough to go in yet.
But back at that, in those daysthey were kind of underground
bars anyway and if you lookedresponsible and gay you weren't
going to cause trouble, they letyou in anyway.
Well, it turns out thatexperience for him was in 1952.
So it was 72 years ago andthere are not a lot of people
(12:54):
out there that you can find thatcan talk about going to a gay
bar 72 years ago.
David Hunt (13:00):
As I wrapped up my conversation with Art Smith, it
seemed only fair to ask himabout his first gay bar
experience.
It happened when he visited afriend, a former boyfriend,
actually in 1978.
Art Smith (13:13):
So we went out to dinner.
I went down to see him atschool in Baltimore and we went
out to dinner and after dinnerhe said hey, I heard there's a
cool bar across the street.
Let's go over there and checkit out.
And so he did and ordered adrink and I'm standing there,
maybe a foot or two above thedance floor it's a little
elevated platform and I'msipping on my drink and looking
(13:36):
at the dance floor and after acouple of minutes I looked at
Mark and I said everybody on thedance floor is male.
And he said yeah, I know.
And I said what's up with that?
He said well, my roommate, jim,told me about this place and
it's a gay bar.
And I was in shock because thatwas the first time I'd been in a
gay bar.
It was called the Hippopotamus,one of the most iconic bars
(14:00):
from Baltimore.
It, I think, lasted until 2015.
So it was there for quite along time.
It's now a CVS, if you want togo visit it.
And it just changed myperspective completely because
all of a sudden, I now knew thatthere was a gay community.
It wasn't just a couple ofrandom people me and Mark and a
(14:20):
few others somewhere, but therewere actually hundreds and
thousands of us all over theplace and it kind of opened the
door to a new lifestyle.
David Hunt (14:36):
I'd like to thank my guest, Art Smith, who curates
the Gayba rchives Project atGaybarchives.
com, and to anyone who remembersmy first gay bar, Monroe's in
Hawthorne, California.
The beat goes on.
For This Way Out.
I'm David Hunt.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.