November 5, 2024 • 54 mins
Have you ever considered that true abundance might not be about wealth at all? This episode of our podcast invites you to explore abundance as a concept that transcends material possessions, focusing instead on joy, friendships, and virtues. We kick off with a light-hearted story about a simple joke shared with a stranger, illustrating how abundance can manifest in unexpected ways. By contrasting this notion with greed, we uncover how genuine abundance encourages sharing rather than hoarding, with Mr. Beast's philanthropy as a shining example of how excess can be transformed into societal good.
Shifting gears, we tackle the heavier aspects of abundance and responsibility, emphasizing the importance of aligning our actions with our values. The conversation challenges the common perception that moral integrity requires sacrificing material possessions. Instead, we advocate for a balanced approach that respects personal values while maintaining a spirit of generosity. Through thoughtful reflection, we highlight how our choices reflect what we truly prioritize, underscoring the transient nature of material wealth and the power of purposeful giving.
In a playful yet insightful turn, we compare life to the game of chess, where strategic moves can foster not just personal growth but enhance relationships too. Drawing on Piaget's observations and personal anecdotes, we discuss how dominance in games might secure short-term wins but can cost friendships in the long run. True leadership, we argue, is about helping others improve, creating a culture of mutual growth and inclusion. We conclude with reflections on the interplay between material abundance and spiritual scarcity, advocating for virtues like temperance to help us navigate life's complexities while encouraging listeners to take positive, purposeful actions.
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Episode Transcript
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Angelo (00:02):
Hello everyone, welcome to the Telos Initiative.
I'm Angelo Cole.
Chris (00:07):
I'm Chris Vigil
Matt (00:09):
and I'm Matt Maes
Angelo (00:11):
we're going to be talking about abundance and
scarcity.
So, Matt, you originally werethe one to bring up this topic.
It piqued your interest forsome reason.
Why don't you start us off?
Matt (00:32):
Well, it's something that I think we're all, deep down,
are looking for in our lives,and it's gotten so muddled in a
lot of ways, our idea ofabundance, like when we say
someone is looking for abundanceor I want to bring more
abundance into my life.
What do we all think of?
wealth right, which is a part ofit, right, but abundance is
(00:56):
also in our way of living alsoit it can be a joyful way that
we approach life.
It can be.
We can have abundance in manydifferent things.
We can have an abundance of joy, we can have an abundance of
friends.
You know in our friend circle Alot of different things.
(01:16):
I think another word that Icome back to is flourish, right?
Angelo (01:20):
Flourish yeah.
Matt (01:21):
Yeah, flourishing.
When we have like a flourishingexistence, we feel that sense
of flourish within ourselves,and that's really what we're a
lot of.
Where I want to go to in thisdiscussion too, is that flourish
originating inward andexpressing itself outwardly okay
, how would you specificallydefine abundance and how would
(01:44):
you differentiate it fromsomething like having too much?
I would say that abundance iswell, abundance is life giving.
You know and yeah, I'm so gladthat you bring that up Like
there can be too much ofsomething and there's also a lot
(02:07):
of benefit in when you have togo without too, which is, you
know, we'll get to a lot of thatin this conversation as well Is
, you know what to do whenperhaps you don't feel a lot of
external abundance in your life.
But you can also have thatinternal abundance in your
(02:28):
situation.
You can.
You can have, you know, a lotof people have, you know, that
internal, well, positive,life-giving mentality and you
know that sense of joy withinthemselves, and then you can
carry that around you with youknow, everywhere you go.
So here's, you know, here's oneexample.
(02:48):
You can just do this ineveryday situations.
Like many times I'd go to the,go to the grocery store and I
would see someone like, just,you know, look into the
vegetables and be like, excuseme, these are actually my
vegetables.
I mean, maybe you can look atthem and I tell you, nine times
out of ten people just turn andthey'll be delighted.
(03:15):
And a lot of them will just kindof play along Because it's like
wow, someone invited me intothis fun game.
Angelo (03:18):
What a peculiar event.
Matt (03:20):
Yes, exactly, and it's like wow, that was outstanding
and cool event.
Yes, exactly, it's like wow,that was outstanding and cool.
And it's, you know, it createsthis, uh, this bond of joy and
kinship that you can have withpeople that just originated from
within.
You're just, you know, you'rehaving fun.
Basically, you're going aroundand you're, you know you're
having a good time and, um, youknow, I walk away from the
(03:43):
situations like just feeling,you know, feeling very, very
uplifted.
You know, feeling very joyfulin the ways that I go about my
day so in that moment you had anabundance of humor.
Chris (03:58):
Yes, and you were sharing that with someone else.
Yes, exactly, and you can havea variety of non-physical
abundance, like an abundance ofvirtue oh yeah, oh, absolutely.
Matt (04:09):
So that I love that you say that like you can tie in
that abundance with like manydifferent facets.
You know many different thingsand when you can point to that
in someone else, it's like saythey have that potential within
them you know you have this, youknow you have a sense of humor
(04:30):
and you're just going about yourday and then someone like
points a light to that and youknow it's inviting.
Yeah, you know it's uh it'sseductive in a way, positively
seductive in a way you know whatdo you think about?
about abundance being this ideathat it's enough, you have
enough to share with others yeah, well, like in the you know
(04:52):
verse in the bible like my cupfloweth over right that you have
that you have that within youand it's you have so much that
it naturally comes out of it.
It just naturally comes out ofyour being Sure, Right, and so
this also gets into thementality of you know, if we're
(05:13):
talking about wealth, right,there's a mentality there of
that person embodies ideas ofabundance.
You know, we could talk aboutsomebody who's like I'm talking
about people who have thispositive, abundant mindset
versus somebody who's, you know,we have people who are like
(05:34):
greedy and filthy rich and we'retalking about, you know, we're
talking about like too much andall that kind of stuff.
I actually feel that a lot ofthem have a sense of lack that
they are trying to fill, andit's like trying to fill a sieve
that nothing ever sustains itright.
Angelo (05:50):
Yeah, I would almost say greed is the desire to have
more than you need, Whileabundance would be like you
might have more than you need,but it's not necessarily a
negative thing Having anabundance of something could be.
You could be saving it forlater.
If you have an abundance offood, you might say well, this
(06:13):
is in preparation for times ofscarcity.
Matt (06:16):
Yeah, definitely, and it matters so much what you do with
that too.
Like my 11-year-old son, he'sbeen watching a lot of you know.
I'm sure you've heard of mrbeast right yes extremely
popular youtuber.
He does all kinds of differentthings, has these insanely
popular videos and very wealthyguy, right, right.
(06:40):
But he also gives to a lot ofthings.
He'll, you know, he'll likebuild houses in these
impoverished places and like allthese different things and like
he is very, he's like, very,very generous in a lot of
different ways, right, and solook at that, and that's a good
financial lesson my son's hereand I told him, like, look at
(07:02):
how he what he does with hiswealth, look at what like.
Look at how he what he doeswith his wealth, look at what
like.
Look at how he shares it, lookat how he spreads it around,
right, so he can look at thatpoint to that and be like, oh
that's, you know, it's sopowerful having like a a good
example.
Chris (07:16):
He has abundance and an abundance of generosity.
Angelo (07:20):
Yes, I feel like there is a connection between
abundance and charity orgenerosity.
You need to be able to havemore than you need in order to
give to others, and so there's anecessary component of
compassion there, and we're allsystematically doled out a
(07:43):
certain amount would we ever beable to express compassion and
give.
Chris (07:54):
I don't know why you're looking at me like I have the
answer.
Angelo (07:58):
Oh, I'm you.
I thought you had an abundanceof knowledge.
I thought we all thought we did.
Matt (08:03):
Isn't that why we're doing this?
Instead, you just have a bun.
Yes, look at this gorgeous, lookat look at obviously abundance,
and abundantly, yeah, yeah, ittakes care of, and that's.
That's another good example, Imean, you say, as it is an
example too, another facet ofabundance is caretaking, you
know, like taking care ofyourself, or it's so funny that,
(08:25):
like before the episode, I seecleaning.
We've actually been doing somecleaning around our house too,
where, if you have, well, if youcan't take care of the things
that you have, then how can youpossibly expect to take care of
more, right, right?
So I've been coming back tothis the gestures of your hand,
(08:47):
like an open hand, like this, beneither like this, with your
fingers spread apart, nor with aclenched fist and clasping on,
but like this.
This is both giving andreceiving.
Right, you're neither graspingtoo tightly nor are you too
loose that you let things slidethrough your fingers, but it's
(09:08):
that middle ground like that.
Angelo (09:11):
The middle way.
Matt (09:15):
The middle way.
So when you take care of thethings around you, it's going
into responsibility.
It's going into responsibility,it's that integrity, right?
There's a connection betweenwhat you say, that you want,
what you truly care for, andyour actions matching that,
actually doing it Like if youget in a new thing you were.
(09:38):
Well, it's coming back to aconcept that we spoke about, I
believe, on our last episodeabout the values around us,
right?
so again, caretaking for what'saround you and, regardless of if
you actually believe inpantheism or whatever, try and
(10:00):
act as if that were true right.
Act as if things around youright are thou and you care for
them and you have a stewardshipwith them, so that that also
increases your capacity forresponsibility.
So when things come your way,then you know what to do with
(10:21):
them.
Angelo (10:23):
You have the capacity to caretake, perhaps treat life
with a sense of fullness right.
Everything you do, all of youractions, should be full of your
energy, full of life, full ofyour effort, even down to the
level of attention.
What you give your attention tois what you care about, and
(10:47):
even if you don't think about itthat much, you're making a
decision.
Every time you switch whereyour eyes are pointing, every
time you choose to look at onething over another, for whatever
reason, you're giving care tothat thing, reason you're giving
(11:08):
care to that thing.
And so the more you're you, themore you make that salient to
yourself, the more you're awareof your choice and what you care
about, the more full your lifewill be, the more present you
will be.
If you're and let's look at theopposing side of that if you
don't take care in what you'regiving your attention to and
what you're giving your effortto and your energy to, you're
(11:31):
going to be on autopilot, you'regoing to be mindless and, in
the sense of abundance, you'renot fully present in that moment
.
You're not fully there, takingcare of your reality to its
fullest capacity.
Matt (11:51):
That's right.
Very, very well put,beautifully put.
Chris (11:59):
Well, all this kind of reminds me of that beatitude.
Right Blessed are the poor inspirit, for theirs is the
kingdom of heaven.
Angelo (12:09):
I'm pretty sure that's what it is or is it they shall
inherit the earth?
I can't remember.
Chris (12:13):
I cannot remember either.
Does anyone have a Bible onthem?
Well, it's something good rightso blessed are the poor in
spirit.
Angelo (12:21):
It might.
Be blessed are the meek, forthey shall inherit the earth.
Chris (12:25):
I think you're right, that one's yes.
But not just like being poor,right being poor in spirit,
having an abundance, you canhave an abundance.
I think I remember JordanPeterson saying something like
it's okay to make money, it'snot easy to make money.
So if you can make money like,yeah, please, it's yours, it's
yours, the world is your oyster.
Have that abundance, but havethe spirit of poverty with you,
(12:49):
too, to be generous with whatyou have, and I like the idea of
abundance and fullness as well.
Angelo (12:59):
I think people get caught up in this notion that
they need to give up possessionin order to be morally right.
They need to get rid of theirbelongings, and there are a few
verses in the Bible and othertheological practices where they
(13:20):
call for you to give away yourmaterial possessions.
But I don't think it's a blackand white issue.
I don't think it's a black andwhite issue.
I don't think it's as simple asoh.
If you just give up what youown, that makes you a good
person.
There's got to be some sense ofreciprocity there.
It matters what you're givingup your material possessions for
(13:45):
.
There's got to be some deeperreason beneath that.
If you're just giving it upjust to show that you're a good
person, there's not really muchthere.
You're just forcing yourself tobe poor for no good reason.
But if you're giving it to agood cause, let's say something
(14:06):
you really believe in and ittruly makes a difference through
your charity.
I think, uh, there's a highermoral sentiment there.
Matt (14:20):
Yeah, and if we're thinking about it from the
position of the person who isbeing asked to give up their
material possessions, that alsospeaks to that they actually
have things to give up theirmaterial possessions.
That also speaks to that theyactually have things to give up
too.
You know, like I hear, I'veheard more and more often like
people who have gotten to thispoint and it's like, oh, you
(14:42):
know, all these things didn'tmatter, whatever.
But I've never, I've neverheard of someone um, how to say
this aspiring not to have themfor its own sake, right, usually
they get to that place and thenthey say, oh, I got to the top
of the hill, and then, you know,I found it, it was meaningless,
(15:05):
and then they give those, thosethings up, but it's like, at
least you should at least havethe perspective I think, allow
yourself to have the perspectiveto be at the place where you
can understand that or you canum, where you can have the
things to freely.
(15:25):
You know you can choose whatperspective you have.
You actually, you actually getto the point where you have
actually attained what you wantto attain and then say you know,
I went there, I got to thatplace and you know, this is this
is my perspective, whereas likea person who who's experienced
(15:48):
that, who has gotten to thatplace of wealth, like they have
the choice of whether or notthey want to have the things
Right the alternative you don'thave the choice.
Angelo (16:00):
There's a saying a hearse is never followed by a
U-Haul Meaning when you die youcan't take anything with you.
Matt (16:13):
So what are you going to do?
Angelo (16:14):
with all the stuff you accumulate.
Chris (16:17):
I've never heard that before.
Angelo (16:21):
That's pretty good, but my best estimation on what you
should do when you accumulate alot of stuff is well, the first
thing that comes to mind is giveit to your kids, right, pass it
on, and maybe there's aslightly more selfish element
(16:42):
there where it's like, well,they're my kids.
Of course, that's the bestthing that I could pass it on to
, but it's also your as a.
It's tricky because, as aparent, you're responsible yeah,
for your children's well-being.
Matt (16:55):
So it's not entirely selfish I I, I've been thinking
about this more often too and Ithink it could be precipitated.
Like you know, my wife actuallywork, she runs this program
that is around family businessesand she's like around a lot of
that kind of world, right isit's really?
(17:16):
It's it's strange to me, thisidea, now that I've I've thought
more about it, how, like yougrow up, you know you grow up,
you're, uh, you get to the acertain age and it's like, oh,
you got to get out of the house,you got to go get a job, you
got to go do this other thing,right.
Whereas if you have a familybusiness and you say you know
(17:38):
the first person like startedthis enterprise and then you
have this ongoingmulti-generational legacy thing.
Right this ongoingmulti-generational legacy thing,
right?
So why is it such a traditionthat you know we're kind of
expected to go and just do this?
Completely other thing rightstart at ground zero.
(17:59):
Try and build up from the firstgeneration right, rather than
have a multi-generational thingLike of course.
If you do that, then you have ahigher chance of building a
legacy thing like a familylegacy thing.
That's what you have, thesebusinesses, these family
(18:21):
businesses that have been aroundfor like 100 or so years,
because that's what they did.
That was the strategy.
Angelo (18:30):
I kind of miss that era yeah when it was like an
apprenticeship sort of deal, andeven if it wasn't, your
immediate family it would.
Matt (18:36):
There would just be an intimate sharing of your
abundance of skill yeah, andit's like no, I'm not gonna, you
know, just expect you to go outand just just do it on your own
, like no, like, come with thefamily and come help build this
thing.
Angelo (18:50):
And there's a pride in your craft.
You know whatever you're doing.
Let's say you're like ashoemaker and you just know how
to make any kind of shoe.
You're fast at it, you're goodat it.
You have something unique toyour brand.
These are everybody knows yourstyle of shoe that you make.
Oh yeah you want to pass that onto the next, and if you don't
(19:11):
have children of your own, whoare you going to pass it on to?
Well, you've got to bringsomeone in.
And I feel like that wholeapprentice idea is sort of lost
with time.
We live in an era where it'skind of like go into the system
and learn, just we're going tothrow a bunch of skills at you
(19:32):
and you kind of just narrow itdown from there and, once you
get your okay, your sheet ofpaper, go and figure it out,
good luck.
And there's no intimacy there.
There there's no um, you don'treally have a close mentor
necessarily.
I mean it's not completely gone.
There are definitely mentorsand apprenticeships and things
(19:55):
still going on, but I just thinkin our culture people think, uh
, the job, the career idea hasbegun become like a so dead,
it's like a graveyard.
Matt (20:10):
Yeah maybe it goes there's , no, there's no personal touch
to it yeah, um, maybe it goeshand in hand with this very kind
of american idea too of theindividualism and the you know,
pull yourself, and there's a lotof merits, thatism and the you
know, pull yourself up, andthere's a lot of merits to that
(20:30):
too, like the personal grit andthe personal sovereignty of your
individual experience and yourindividual power, you know.
But that doesn't mean that youindividually have to go it alone
, right, you can bring that intowhatever venture it is that
you're doing and have that, thatsense of vitality and power.
(20:53):
and you know that optimism ofabundance in what you're doing
right.
Angelo (20:58):
I would tie it back to like the industrial revolution,
I think, once we startedtreating people like assembly
lines and people started turninginto these uh machines because
the process to make thingsbecame more complex, you needed
several stages, right.
So this guy's doing this pieceand this guy's doing this piece,
(21:20):
and you're kind of going downthe line to make this
complicated thing that you wouldnever be able to make as
efficiently on your own.
Once that sort of mindsetstarted happening, how can you
have your own personal touch tosomething that's bigger than you
?
And so it's almost like thecompany's brand becomes the
(21:44):
personal touch.
Chris (21:45):
But you know, I think whatever happens with you know,
factories and branding and theeconomy, that's one thing, but I
I would like to return to thefact that everything that we
just said is like a perfectmetaphor for non, uh, like
immaterial abundance, um,because that's what we kind of,
(22:06):
the whole apprenticeship thingthat's, and passing something on
to our legacy.
That's what we do with ourfaiths, right, and our religions
that we ascribe to.
It's like these ancient ideas,excuse me, it's like these
ancient ideas of philosophy andtheology and god and virtue all
channeled into like a singlefaith and for Christians, right,
(22:32):
a single symbol or a single manthat become spiritually and
immaterially, enters into ourreality and then those graces
and those virtues and those goodthings that we have multiplies
as we share them with others.
Yes, and sometimes thatincludes an apprenticeship, like
(22:56):
a spiritual director, or justlike showing up to the ballgame
and opening up your holy booksand reading it and engaging with
it.
Angelo (23:06):
Makes me think of the and we keep quoting the Bible
here but it makes me think ofthe uh and I we keep quoting the
bible here but it makes methink of the fishes and the
loaves story of christ.
Right, they didn't have enough,and somehow it was more than
enough for everyone to share,even though it was an abundance,
yeah there was an abundance.
Matt (23:26):
Yes, wow, you know.
I think it really speaks tolike the idea of happiness too,
like how we now understand moreof happiness and how we can have
more happiness in our lives andsay we have a group of people
actually there's an excellentanalogy for this where you have
(23:51):
this classroom and every singleperson in that classroom has has
a balloon.
They write their name on theballoon, and then they put all
the balloons into the hallwayand they scattered them all
around the place, right, andeveryone's trying to find their
balloon.
It takes them forever, but thenthen, um, then the game changes
(24:12):
and say someone else finds yourballoon and they give it to you,
right, every, all of a sudden,everyone, it comes back you know
the thing of the spoons rightkind of oh yeah, yeah right is
all of a sudden, everyone hastheir own balloon with their
name on it so it's the idea ofthe collective joy and the
(24:33):
collective good, the collectivehappiness.
It's like that.
That kind of happiness is likethe intelligence that you can.
Not only can you experiencehappiness through your own
gratification, but also throughanother person's ground there's
(24:53):
a shared of upwards a sharedabundance and through that you
actually multiply your sourcesof happiness mm-hmm through all
the people who you can light uphappiness within them right and
then you just put yourself inthe very best position to have
multiple sources of abundancearound you in your social circle
(25:16):
.
I mean, what better positioncould you possibly be in than
that?
Angelo (25:22):
Yeah, so the psychologist Piaget studies the
development of children and hewas looking into kids playing
games and what he noticed isthat when you have a group of
kids and there's like maybe onekid who's really good at a game,
if he just tries to dominatethe other kids and just
(25:44):
completely, uh, win every singlegame, maybe he wins in the
short term, but in the long run,those kids, the other kids,
will stop wanting to play withhim.
He becomes like less likely toplay the future game.
So there's like a bigger game,it's like a game within a game.
(26:06):
Yeah, and what he noticed is ifthey're willing to give up a
little or share even a littlemore um than half of what they
have, the other kids pick up onthat and they're like, oh, I
want to play with that kid, Iwant to play with the kid who
lets me win a little more, evenif he wins sometimes.
Matt (26:26):
And uh, that's like the best position to be in is in the
position where you're giving alot to, where other people
notice your generosity andabundance definitely, and when I
think a real leadership qualityin terms of competition is when
(26:47):
you're actually making thepeople that you're playing with
better too, even if and I wouldeven say especially if you're
playing in a game that's inopposition to them, right, like
here's.
Another example is I love chessand my family loves playing
chess, right and whenever.
Angelo (27:07):
Yeah, oh yeah, I'll throw down some chess.
Chris (27:12):
I'll throw down some chess Target target I love it.
Matt (27:16):
So whenever we go on vacation, especially my wife and
I, we have a small chess board,a small portable chess board
that we bring with us.
Right, and we'll make time toplay these games.
Say what we could be having,like a brunch, right, and we'll
play a chess game in the spaceof that brunch wow yeah, it's
(27:37):
pretty cool bunch of nerds, soyeah, and you know, sometimes
she'll get me, sometimes I'llget her, and and I've noticed,
sometimes I've noticed there's,there's also like a
psychological advantage to whochallenges who too oh, really oh
yeah, oh yeah, like shechallenges me, I'm like, okay, I
know she's gonna, she's gonnabring it.
(27:57):
I gotta game up up and then, ifI do the same, I'm like I'm
coming, but you know we'll havelittle chess tournaments and
like the last one that we played.
We just got back from vacationcelebrating my sister and
brother-in-law's vow renewal.
They've been married for 10years.
(28:17):
Nice and yeah, so we got to havea little vacation.
We played chess in this lastgame oh my god, it was like it
was so close.
I thought I was fried like anumber of times, right, but I
was just able to outmaneuver andyou know some different ways
and and then there were just afew you know key missteps that
(28:40):
were made, that she made, thatwas able to like reverse the you
know momentum and and that sortof thing, and and I finally got
it, finally got the, thecheckmate.
The first thing I said was, likeyou know what I just have to
say, like you, really run for mymoney just now, like
acknowledging like she's a,she's a force to be reckoned
(29:01):
with in chess man, like so she'sreally good.
And then we're going and we'reanalyzing the different moves.
You know what went down on theboard.
You know analyzing, looking atthose, what could have been done
differently.
Chris (29:14):
Did you notate them in algebraic notation?
No, not that much.
Matt (29:19):
Oh, okay, wow, oh, never mind.
Hesitation, no, not that much.
Okay, wow, oh, never mind.
No, but I have, I have a chestduring all.
I should probably use that more.
But uh, but I could have justbeen like, oh yeah, oh yeah dude
, you know, but you know what doI get out of that?
so I want my victories to bedefined by how well I did, not
(29:40):
by the mistakes that she made.
I want her to actually be acompetent person to play against
Right, and therefore my playingagainst her will also make me
better.
And then we leapfrog and shebecomes better.
And then I become better andshe becomes better.
We both become better and shebecomes better.
(30:01):
We both become better.
Right, which, if you actuallylook at the word competition, it
ties in with the wordcompetence.
It's about improvement it's notabout one person beating another
person that's, the other peoplein a game are factors to you.
You can only play your game.
(30:23):
You can only play your own game.
Think about that.
You can't control what theother person is going to do.
You can respond, they canrespond to what you're doing,
but you're only ever playingfrom first-person perspective.
Chris (30:42):
And that's true on team things as well right, other
members of your team?
They're not you, you're notthem.
You have to cohesively playtogether in the competition, and
how are you?
Angelo (30:55):
going to get better.
If the other person isn'tseeing something that you're not
seeing, right, you need achallenge in order for if the
other person isn't seeingsomething that you're not seeing
, you need a challenge in orderfor yourself to move forward.
Chris (31:06):
That's right.
Well, it sounds like you andHelena are very gracious chess
players, and I'm not.
Matt (31:15):
You're the kid who nobody wants to play with.
Chris (31:22):
He won't let anybody win.
Too many people bullied me whenI was a child, so they're going
down.
No reciprocity.
Matt (31:34):
I like that ferocity though.
I like it, and that's one thingLike yeah a fierce chess win.
Angelo (31:41):
I give it to you.
The bigger the ego, the harderthe fall.
Matt (31:47):
I will tell you one thing I've noticed.
We'll get back to abundancehere in a second.
Chris (31:51):
Oh yeah, Talk about abundance, yeah right.
Matt (31:55):
But I have noticed that, like if I'm on the defense, like
I usually play as the darkpieces, Sure.
If the light pieces are tryingtoo quickly to get to the back
and to go on the offense, thatactually ends up working against
you a lot of the time, becausethen if I build up my defenses
(32:16):
the right way, if I actuallyovercome that attack, then you
can actually end up losing keypieces in that attack and then I
can reverse the uh, themomentum right, because the dark
pieces are about counter.
They're not about, they're notas much about the, the initial
moves they're.
They're more about response andI'm like giving my right chest,
(32:38):
but they're more aboutintelligently responding.
It's actually a.
I found it's a good challengeplaying as the dark pieces,
because it makes you think rightyou're, you're one step behind.
Angelo (32:52):
And if one thing I've noticed about chess, as well as
most strategic games and jujitsuas well, is that no matter what
position you're in, there'slike a weak point.
So, um, let's keep it at chess,right, if you're, if you've got
like a really solid uh line ofpawns but you haven't really
(33:13):
moved any of your bigger piecesout, maybe you you have a good
defense, but you aren't going tobe able to make uh gain any
momentum from way back herewhile you know, maybe it's hard
to break through your line ofdefense, whereas if you are
playing aggressively, maybeyou're going to be able to take
advantage of a certain spot.
(33:35):
But you, the more you movewildly, the the more you leave
yourself open for an attack.
So it depends on who you'replaying and how they play and
how aggressively.
I love strategy games as well,but abundance.
Chris (33:55):
Oh, back to the topic of abundance Abundance.
You know when I was, um, excuseme, you know when I was, uh,
studying some of our ancienthistory, like right at the cusp
of developing our owncivilizations, and going into
(34:15):
like history, so I guess, justpre-history, like for a moment,
as we had like houses andtemples and like a little bit of
agriculture, fishing, cultureand developing languages and
culture and all this other stuff, for a moment we had world
peace, interesting, and thecause of that was that we had an
(34:40):
abundance of resources.
So we had, like you know right,enough food, enough shelter.
And we were like, hey, do youguys have enough food and
shelter?
Here's some food and shelterfor you guys.
Have at it.
And it was great.
And then we, probably, I, Iwould I would say that we're
still there, in a weird way.
We still have an abundance ofmoney and food and enough
(35:03):
entertainment to go around.
Angelo (35:05):
It's just that it's all going to a small percentage.
It's accumulated to a smallpercentage of people.
Chris (35:12):
But I think we could still have that.
We just read up on our historya little bit, know that we have
an abundance and figure out howto get that abundance to more
people.
Angelo (35:23):
I think we've got a ways to go, good luck.
Well, I think it's acommunication issue, because I
think even if two people arewilling to go that route, they
both have different ideas on howto get there.
There's going to be a bumpingof heads, and there's just right
now.
We live in such an antagonisticpolitical climate.
Chris (35:49):
I think this two-party system Exactly, I think
communication's actually asymptom of the real issue, which
is that there's a scarcity ofspiritual power in the world
okay, go deeper, into that okayuh, there was a short period in
(36:12):
my life in recent history whereI had, um, an abundance of
spiritual power and I wassharing it with the people
around me right, my family andit was.
It was weird because thesepsychological and emotional
issues that I've been dealingwith for my entire life were
(36:35):
suddenly resolved by this gracethat I was given and I know that
if I can attain it like thisyou know, I don't want to be too
self-deprecating here, but likeyou know, this person who had
had his moment of degeneracyright in his life and
(36:58):
deconstructed his faith if I cango back and attain that and
share it with people, I thinkanybody can do that.
It's not going to be easy, butI think if we bring more of that
spiritual power and energy andgrace into the world, so I'm
(37:18):
trying to figure out exactlywhat you mean by spiritual power
.
Angelo (37:21):
When you say you had an abundance, what?
Chris (37:25):
what well, I?
I specifically mean thechristian idea of grace.
Okay, I should probably definethat later.
Let's put grace down, becauseI'm not sure I have a good
working definition for grace,but I know I had it and I know
when I had it, suddenly all ofthe material things of the earth
(37:50):
just didn't feel like they wereworthy of my attention and my
focus anymore.
The only thing that was worthyof my attention was God, and the
more I was able to tap intothat, the only metaphoric thing
was God was like this ball oflight here and I was tapping
into it and it was flowing in aconfluent relationship with me
(38:14):
and me, with it and him, andthat grace was flowing out into
the world.
Angelo (38:20):
And you feel, like now, that that state of mind was a
positive thing, or do you feellike that was an?
Chris (38:25):
illusion.
Angelo (38:26):
I feel like it was a positive and real thing okay,
which is interesting because Iwe were talking earlier about
the notion of care and attentionto other things in your reality
and the fullness that you canhave of giving attention to even
(38:48):
the minute things in life.
That's almost like a polaropposite idea idea.
But I mean, when you say yougave your your full attention to
god, what I'm, I guess thatthat's just a very um abstract
(39:12):
thing to think about.
I'm kind of like, what did youmean by god in that sense?
Do you mean like the source ofbeing you were just fully
attentive to?
Chris (39:26):
So I guess, right, as a Christian, I was tapped into the
spirit of Christ.
Okay, right.
So the spirit, the immaterialthing that drives a human body
and mind, and christ, the, thesalvation of jesus, right, the
(39:57):
christ, it means an immaterialthing that was spilling out into
physical reality.
So I would argue that we havean abundance of like sensual
things that we can enjoy, right,like food, entertainment, but
(40:19):
we have a scarcity of temperance.
There's like a scarcity ofvirtue that we need to amend.
And when we amend that scarcityof virtue, we'll amend our
abundance problem as well.
Matt (40:37):
So what I'm hearing here?
That?
Was powerful, for sure.
Angelo (40:40):
Wow.
So what I'm hearing here isthere's like a level of like
physical objects and materialthings.
Right, you can have abundanceof food, you can have an
abundance of wealth or stuff orwhatever.
And then there's like anotherlevel where and you're talking
about the level of virtue, whichmaybe there's actually multiple
levels here of virtue, whichmaybe there's actually multiple
(41:03):
levels here but I would say thelevel of virtue is it has to do
something with, um, it's evenour capacity to relate to those
physical things, in a sense Like, if you're talking about
temperance, um, that's yourtemperance would be like how, uh
(41:27):
, how do I put this?
Temperance would be somethinglike how you, how much of that
stuff that you're willing totake in?
Or if you're, if you'readdicted to that stuff, you're
kind of like taking too much in.
I'm trying to think of theright phrasing to put it.
Matt (41:56):
I think it comes back to this Like you can freely pick it
up or put it down when you needto, right pick it up or put it
down when you need to so you'renot attached to it, but you're
not just letting things slidethrough your fingers, because
you can be a slave to an objector a need.
Angelo (42:18):
You can be a glutton, you can be lustful, you can be
greedy let's not complicate ittoo much.
Chris (42:24):
Let's just say it's like chocolate cake, right, you don't
want to have like too much, youdon't want to grasp too much
chocolate cake for yourself.
That's not.
You're addicted to thechocolate cake, then you don't
want to completely depriveyourself of it.
You know, not necessarily,unless you know there was a
christian thing called fasting.
I think I mean probably inother religions as well.
(42:45):
That's funny.
Angelo (42:46):
I mean it's okay to enjoy chocolate a lot, but you
can enjoy it.
Matt (42:50):
I don't know if you guys have seen it.
By the way, it's a really goodone to watch in terms of
chocolate and abundance andscarcity, anyway, but continue.
Angelo (42:58):
So the temperance here would be your ability to not
take too much but not depriveyourself unnecessarily.
Matt (43:08):
Yeah, I think to not take too much, but not deprive
yourself unnecessarily.
Chris (43:10):
Yeah, I think that would be.
That's a good definition ofyeah, temperance, right, there's
also prudence, right, yes, andyour ability to judge situations
one of the yeah four carnalvirtues I think are justice
temperance, prudence, and is itcourage.
Yes.
Angelo (43:36):
Oh yeah, good with my Greek.
Chris (43:37):
Didn't even have to stop.
He was just like it's this,this, this and this.
Angelo (43:40):
Yes, you guys fluffed me up, got an abundance of
compliments here what can we say?
I can name all seven dwarvesbut no, no, no that's, that's,
(44:05):
no, that's that's.
Matt (44:06):
Another element too is the balance between, say, the
people who, the people who arelike overly flattering, and also
the people who may be overlycritical too, and to take both
with a grain of salt, you know,it's like there could be some
(44:28):
things that they're genuinelypointing to, like you could have
some genuinely amazingattributes about you, and
they're just.
They're just, you know,genuinely enthusiastic about you
and genuinely what's what's amuch better word admiring, you
know, genuinely admiring of you.
And then there are the peoplewho could be overly critical and
(44:51):
they could put and be pointingout the spots where perhaps
could use some improvementthey're both.
They could be both doing you afavor really because also people
who are critical, could bepointing out areas where you
could improve, and they couldsay, no, thank you for that,
awesome.
Then you take that and then youknow you don't have to take the
negative emotions or negativity.
(45:13):
You kind of go, okay, cool, butthen you go back to the center.
You know, like, what's thetruth within both of those
statements.
You know.
Angelo (45:24):
There's also an aspect of envy there.
These people could be beingtwo-faced, like if you've ever
seen the mean girls.
They're like oh I love that top, and then that top is the
ugliest right, there's like athere's like a two-faced you
know, backhanded compliment.
They're almost taking that gamethat I talked about earlier
(45:46):
with the kids, and another levelof it is I'm going to make you
think that I'm playing with youand then, behind your back, I'll
betray you.
Chris (45:56):
So humans are complicated .
Angelo (45:58):
Oh, whoa man, you get levels man.
Matt (46:01):
Let me write that down.
Oh my god.
Angelo (46:05):
Are you really going to?
Matt (46:05):
write that down, god.
Let me make a note of that.
But I mean the element of Imean the element of envy there
is they.
Angelo (46:19):
They see that you have something that they wish they
had and you are like areflection of their um
iniquities.
What do you?
What do you?
Matt (46:30):
call it.
They're a reflectioninadequacies.
There you go.
Angelo (46:33):
Yes so they're like, oh like, I want to say something,
but there's a there's not agenuine spirit of admiration
underneath.
Matt (46:47):
So there's there's two parts in that I want to talk
about too is there's the twoqualities, like there's the
positive um mentality ofabundance right and then there's
this charge to go and do things.
That makes that abundancepossible, right?
So it's like you can't if youhave one, if you have this
(47:10):
person who just you have like areally good figure, you go to
the gym, you know this personlike takes care of themselves
and you're lifting, you're doingall these good things, you know
nutrition, you got that onpoint.
And then like, oh, look at thisgym rat, look at this person,
whatever it's like, and ifyou're envious, it's like, don't
feel bad about the work thatyou didn't do that that person
(47:35):
did to go into to refine theirform and do like, if you don't
want to go to the gym, don't goto the gym, but don't don to the
gym, but don't, don't, you know, put on this front and this
negativity and this, like youknow, this false.
Angelo (47:49):
Trying to drag someone else down to your level?
Yeah, exactly Right, becausethey your lazy ass level, yeah
right.
Chris (47:58):
Because that person had the positive growth mindset and
the oomph to go and do the thingto get the abundance that they
wanted to get right right so ifyou have a scarcity of that
right, stop in the moment ofwhere you are and bring an
abundance of virtue to yourself,yeah, and then decide go to the
(48:21):
gym or eat a salad, maybe doboth, or, if you're already
there, you're.
Angelo (48:27):
You're getting fit, you're in a positive spin,
you've got an abundance of thatvirtue.
Share with others.
Yes, bring that mindset topeople that you care about.
Share with someone that and notnot to lower lord over them,
like uh, you think that you'rebetter than them, or anything,
but like, hey, this is somethingthat I find joy in this,
(48:49):
something that makes me happy,and I want to share that with
you well, I want you to feel thesame way that I do and
hopefully there's a good spiritof that in the spirit of
missionary work.
Chris (49:00):
Right like it says it's either Acts or it's Romans, but
the Bible says the apostles andthe disciples of Jesus.
They gave up everything thatthey had to go preach the word
of God and that's the idea Likethey had something real, they
had something good that gavethem an abundance of virtue and
joy.
(49:20):
They were like and I think evenpeter says to uh, a paralytic
outside the temple, he says Idon't have much, but what I have
I will give you stand and behealed in the name of jesus, and
he does, and he is healed inthe name of jesus.
Angelo (49:38):
And just like the fishes and loaves, even if he doesn't
have much yeah, it's enough hemultiplies it yeah, the point
where he's spiritually.
Chris (49:48):
I do think that parallel is a spiritual metaphor.
Angelo (49:52):
It's not about physically multiplying food.
It's about you can do that toowith your spiritual.
Matt (50:00):
Well, yes, yeah, let's go to the how to bring that like
how to materialize it yeah, likesay, how say you have I love
going back to the potential ofthe thing, the thought, the
non-formness of the thing,visualizing at first, right.
So say you have an idea in yourmind whether it's, you know, an
(50:25):
abundance of virtue, anabundance of friends.
An abundance of virtue, anabundance of friends, an
abundance of faith, an abundanceof wealth, all those things.
It starts as aconceptualization first, right,
yes, and then you focus on that.
And where we focus, like weimagine the water flowing
towards it, imagine, likeirrigation ditches, that your
(50:49):
thoughts as water are flowingtowards that thing.
Right, so you can direct yourthoughts in a certain direction
right, and the more that youpoint your thoughts towards that
, the more this.
Now I love this.
I don't know if you guyschecked out the uh, was it it
the Strangest Secret?
By Earl Nightingale.
He did this amazing, amazingradio address where he talks all
(51:13):
about this and one of the keypoints that he makes in there,
that wise people have said overand over and over again, from
all different cultures cultureslike what you think about all
day long.
You then become right.
So you shape your behaviors,you shape your life by your
(51:34):
thoughts right and the energyyou put into your thoughts.
So being so, you know, so youthink about that all the time.
You know you think aboutyourself as a strong, so you
think about that all the timeyou know you think about
yourself as a strong person.
You think about yourself asabundantly in faith and you
focus on that.
You pour your energy and yourfocus into that.
(51:57):
Then that magnifies and thatmaterializes and the irrigation
ditches of your thoughts and thewater flowing towards them then
shapes your mind.
That then goes into yourexternal reality.
Right, yeah, because you arethat, because you are being that
(52:24):
, because you've just spent somuch time thinking about it.
That that's.
Angelo (52:33):
Your thoughts become words and words become actions,
actions become habits and habitsbecome it impacts the world
around you.
Matt (52:43):
So it's through that impact that you make that change
possible, that you make thatthing gravitate into your life.
So that's really what it is.
I mean, if you were to make apractice of just of setting
aside time to think about thesethings and to pour energy, to
(53:04):
pour enthusiasm and that oomphinto those thoughts you know, or
care like we talked aboutearlier.
Angelo (53:12):
Yeah, put some some care and some will into into those
thoughts yeah, the doing of, andthat's really.
Matt (53:19):
It is the bringing them from the thoughts into the body
you know, and your body as themedium that then brings them
into your external reality.
Chris (53:29):
That's great.
Angelo (53:35):
Alright, well, honestly, I think that was a pretty good
talk on abundance.
Chris (53:43):
I think so.
Angelo (53:44):
I think it might be a good stopping place to kind of
wrap it up and uh, thank you allfor joining us.
We had a great time talkingabout abundance and scarcity
with you and, um, if you've madeit this far, thank you for
sticking around.
We hope that you'll join us forthe next one.
(54:04):
Have a good one.
Hello everyone, welcome to the Telos Initiative.
I'm Angelo Cole.
Chris (00:07):
I'm Chris Vigil
Matt (00:09):
and I'm Matt Maes
Angelo (00:11):
we're going to be talking about abundance and
scarcity.
So, Matt, you originally werethe one to bring up this topic.
It piqued your interest forsome reason.
Why don't you start us off?
Matt (00:32):
Well, it's something that I think we're all, deep down,
are looking for in our lives,and it's gotten so muddled in a
lot of ways, our idea ofabundance, like when we say
someone is looking for abundanceor I want to bring more
abundance into my life.
What do we all think of?
wealth right, which is a part ofit, right, but abundance is
(00:56):
also in our way of living alsoit it can be a joyful way that
we approach life.
It can be.
We can have abundance in manydifferent things.
We can have an abundance of joy, we can have an abundance of
friends.
You know in our friend circle Alot of different things.
(01:16):
I think another word that Icome back to is flourish, right?
Angelo (01:20):
Flourish yeah.
Matt (01:21):
Yeah, flourishing.
When we have like a flourishingexistence, we feel that sense
of flourish within ourselves,and that's really what we're a
lot of.
Where I want to go to in thisdiscussion too, is that flourish
originating inward andexpressing itself outwardly okay
, how would you specificallydefine abundance and how would
(01:44):
you differentiate it fromsomething like having too much?
I would say that abundance iswell, abundance is life giving.
You know and yeah, I'm so gladthat you bring that up Like
there can be too much ofsomething and there's also a lot
(02:07):
of benefit in when you have togo without too, which is, you
know, we'll get to a lot of thatin this conversation as well Is
, you know what to do whenperhaps you don't feel a lot of
external abundance in your life.
But you can also have thatinternal abundance in your
(02:28):
situation.
You can.
You can have, you know, a lotof people have, you know, that
internal, well, positive,life-giving mentality and you
know that sense of joy withinthemselves, and then you can
carry that around you with youknow, everywhere you go.
So here's, you know, here's oneexample.
(02:48):
You can just do this ineveryday situations.
Like many times I'd go to the,go to the grocery store and I
would see someone like, just,you know, look into the
vegetables and be like, excuseme, these are actually my
vegetables.
I mean, maybe you can look atthem and I tell you, nine times
out of ten people just turn andthey'll be delighted.
(03:15):
And a lot of them will just kindof play along Because it's like
wow, someone invited me intothis fun game.
Angelo (03:18):
What a peculiar event.
Matt (03:20):
Yes, exactly, and it's like wow, that was outstanding
and cool event.
Yes, exactly, it's like wow,that was outstanding and cool.
And it's, you know, it createsthis, uh, this bond of joy and
kinship that you can have withpeople that just originated from
within.
You're just, you know, you'rehaving fun.
Basically, you're going aroundand you're, you know you're
having a good time and, um, youknow, I walk away from the
(03:43):
situations like just feeling,you know, feeling very, very
uplifted.
You know, feeling very joyfulin the ways that I go about my
day so in that moment you had anabundance of humor.
Chris (03:58):
Yes, and you were sharing that with someone else.
Yes, exactly, and you can havea variety of non-physical
abundance, like an abundance ofvirtue oh yeah, oh, absolutely.
Matt (04:09):
So that I love that you say that like you can tie in
that abundance with like manydifferent facets.
You know many different thingsand when you can point to that
in someone else, it's like saythey have that potential within
them you know you have this, youknow you have a sense of humor
(04:30):
and you're just going about yourday and then someone like
points a light to that and youknow it's inviting.
Yeah, you know it's uh it'sseductive in a way, positively
seductive in a way you know whatdo you think about?
about abundance being this ideathat it's enough, you have
enough to share with others yeah, well, like in the you know
(04:52):
verse in the bible like my cupfloweth over right that you have
that you have that within youand it's you have so much that
it naturally comes out of it.
It just naturally comes out ofyour being Sure, Right, and so
this also gets into thementality of you know, if we're
(05:13):
talking about wealth, right,there's a mentality there of
that person embodies ideas ofabundance.
You know, we could talk aboutsomebody who's like I'm talking
about people who have thispositive, abundant mindset
versus somebody who's, you know,we have people who are like
(05:34):
greedy and filthy rich and we'retalking about, you know, we're
talking about like too much andall that kind of stuff.
I actually feel that a lot ofthem have a sense of lack that
they are trying to fill, andit's like trying to fill a sieve
that nothing ever sustains itright.
Angelo (05:50):
Yeah, I would almost say greed is the desire to have
more than you need, Whileabundance would be like you
might have more than you need,but it's not necessarily a
negative thing Having anabundance of something could be.
You could be saving it forlater.
If you have an abundance offood, you might say well, this
(06:13):
is in preparation for times ofscarcity.
Matt (06:16):
Yeah, definitely, and it matters so much what you do with
that too.
Like my 11-year-old son, he'sbeen watching a lot of you know.
I'm sure you've heard of mrbeast right yes extremely
popular youtuber.
He does all kinds of differentthings, has these insanely
popular videos and very wealthyguy, right, right.
(06:40):
But he also gives to a lot ofthings.
He'll, you know, he'll likebuild houses in these
impoverished places and like allthese different things and like
he is very, he's like, very,very generous in a lot of
different ways, right, and solook at that, and that's a good
financial lesson my son's hereand I told him, like, look at
(07:02):
how he what he does with hiswealth, look at what like.
Look at how he what he doeswith his wealth, look at what
like.
Look at how he shares it, lookat how he spreads it around,
right, so he can look at thatpoint to that and be like, oh
that's, you know, it's sopowerful having like a a good
example.
Chris (07:16):
He has abundance and an abundance of generosity.
Angelo (07:20):
Yes, I feel like there is a connection between
abundance and charity orgenerosity.
You need to be able to havemore than you need in order to
give to others, and so there's anecessary component of
compassion there, and we're allsystematically doled out a
(07:43):
certain amount would we ever beable to express compassion and
give.
Chris (07:54):
I don't know why you're looking at me like I have the
answer.
Angelo (07:58):
Oh, I'm you.
I thought you had an abundanceof knowledge.
I thought we all thought we did.
Matt (08:03):
Isn't that why we're doing this?
Instead, you just have a bun.
Yes, look at this gorgeous, lookat look at obviously abundance,
and abundantly, yeah, yeah, ittakes care of, and that's.
That's another good example, Imean, you say, as it is an
example too, another facet ofabundance is caretaking, you
know, like taking care ofyourself, or it's so funny that,
(08:25):
like before the episode, I seecleaning.
We've actually been doing somecleaning around our house too,
where, if you have, well, if youcan't take care of the things
that you have, then how can youpossibly expect to take care of
more, right, right?
So I've been coming back tothis the gestures of your hand,
(08:47):
like an open hand, like this, beneither like this, with your
fingers spread apart, nor with aclenched fist and clasping on,
but like this.
This is both giving andreceiving.
Right, you're neither graspingtoo tightly nor are you too
loose that you let things slidethrough your fingers, but it's
(09:08):
that middle ground like that.
Angelo (09:11):
The middle way.
Matt (09:15):
The middle way.
So when you take care of thethings around you, it's going
into responsibility.
It's going into responsibility,it's that integrity, right?
There's a connection betweenwhat you say, that you want,
what you truly care for, andyour actions matching that,
actually doing it Like if youget in a new thing you were.
(09:38):
Well, it's coming back to aconcept that we spoke about, I
believe, on our last episodeabout the values around us,
right?
so again, caretaking for what'saround you and, regardless of if
you actually believe inpantheism or whatever, try and
(10:00):
act as if that were true right.
Act as if things around youright are thou and you care for
them and you have a stewardshipwith them, so that that also
increases your capacity forresponsibility.
So when things come your way,then you know what to do with
(10:21):
them.
Angelo (10:23):
You have the capacity to caretake, perhaps treat life
with a sense of fullness right.
Everything you do, all of youractions, should be full of your
energy, full of life, full ofyour effort, even down to the
level of attention.
What you give your attention tois what you care about, and
(10:47):
even if you don't think about itthat much, you're making a
decision.
Every time you switch whereyour eyes are pointing, every
time you choose to look at onething over another, for whatever
reason, you're giving care tothat thing, reason you're giving
(11:08):
care to that thing.
And so the more you're you, themore you make that salient to
yourself, the more you're awareof your choice and what you care
about, the more full your lifewill be, the more present you
will be.
If you're and let's look at theopposing side of that if you
don't take care in what you'regiving your attention to and
what you're giving your effortto and your energy to, you're
(11:31):
going to be on autopilot, you'regoing to be mindless and, in
the sense of abundance, you'renot fully present in that moment
.
You're not fully there, takingcare of your reality to its
fullest capacity.
Matt (11:51):
That's right.
Very, very well put,beautifully put.
Chris (11:59):
Well, all this kind of reminds me of that beatitude.
Right Blessed are the poor inspirit, for theirs is the
kingdom of heaven.
Angelo (12:09):
I'm pretty sure that's what it is or is it they shall
inherit the earth?
I can't remember.
Chris (12:13):
I cannot remember either.
Does anyone have a Bible onthem?
Well, it's something good rightso blessed are the poor in
spirit.
Angelo (12:21):
It might.
Be blessed are the meek, forthey shall inherit the earth.
Chris (12:25):
I think you're right, that one's yes.
But not just like being poor,right being poor in spirit,
having an abundance, you canhave an abundance.
I think I remember JordanPeterson saying something like
it's okay to make money, it'snot easy to make money.
So if you can make money like,yeah, please, it's yours, it's
yours, the world is your oyster.
Have that abundance, but havethe spirit of poverty with you,
(12:49):
too, to be generous with whatyou have, and I like the idea of
abundance and fullness as well.
Angelo (12:59):
I think people get caught up in this notion that
they need to give up possessionin order to be morally right.
They need to get rid of theirbelongings, and there are a few
verses in the Bible and othertheological practices where they
(13:20):
call for you to give away yourmaterial possessions.
But I don't think it's a blackand white issue.
I don't think it's a black andwhite issue.
I don't think it's as simple asoh.
If you just give up what youown, that makes you a good
person.
There's got to be some sense ofreciprocity there.
It matters what you're givingup your material possessions for
(13:45):
.
There's got to be some deeperreason beneath that.
If you're just giving it upjust to show that you're a good
person, there's not really muchthere.
You're just forcing yourself tobe poor for no good reason.
But if you're giving it to agood cause, let's say something
(14:06):
you really believe in and ittruly makes a difference through
your charity.
I think, uh, there's a highermoral sentiment there.
Matt (14:20):
Yeah, and if we're thinking about it from the
position of the person who isbeing asked to give up their
material possessions, that alsospeaks to that they actually
have things to give up theirmaterial possessions.
That also speaks to that theyactually have things to give up
too.
You know, like I hear, I'veheard more and more often like
people who have gotten to thispoint and it's like, oh, you
(14:42):
know, all these things didn'tmatter, whatever.
But I've never, I've neverheard of someone um, how to say
this aspiring not to have themfor its own sake, right, usually
they get to that place and thenthey say, oh, I got to the top
of the hill, and then, you know,I found it, it was meaningless,
(15:05):
and then they give those, thosethings up, but it's like, at
least you should at least havethe perspective I think, allow
yourself to have the perspectiveto be at the place where you
can understand that or you canum, where you can have the
things to freely.
(15:25):
You know you can choose whatperspective you have.
You actually, you actually getto the point where you have
actually attained what you wantto attain and then say you know,
I went there, I got to thatplace and you know, this is this
is my perspective, whereas likea person who who's experienced
(15:48):
that, who has gotten to thatplace of wealth, like they have
the choice of whether or notthey want to have the things
Right the alternative you don'thave the choice.
Angelo (16:00):
There's a saying a hearse is never followed by a
U-Haul Meaning when you die youcan't take anything with you.
Matt (16:13):
So what are you going to do?
Angelo (16:14):
with all the stuff you accumulate.
Chris (16:17):
I've never heard that before.
Angelo (16:21):
That's pretty good, but my best estimation on what you
should do when you accumulate alot of stuff is well, the first
thing that comes to mind is giveit to your kids, right, pass it
on, and maybe there's aslightly more selfish element
(16:42):
there where it's like, well,they're my kids.
Of course, that's the bestthing that I could pass it on to
, but it's also your as a.
It's tricky because, as aparent, you're responsible yeah,
for your children's well-being.
Matt (16:55):
So it's not entirely selfish I I, I've been thinking
about this more often too and Ithink it could be precipitated.
Like you know, my wife actuallywork, she runs this program
that is around family businessesand she's like around a lot of
that kind of world, right isit's really?
(17:16):
It's it's strange to me, thisidea, now that I've I've thought
more about it, how, like yougrow up, you know you grow up,
you're, uh, you get to the acertain age and it's like, oh,
you got to get out of the house,you got to go get a job, you
got to go do this other thing,right.
Whereas if you have a familybusiness and you say you know
(17:38):
the first person like startedthis enterprise and then you
have this ongoingmulti-generational legacy thing.
Right this ongoingmulti-generational legacy thing,
right?
So why is it such a traditionthat you know we're kind of
expected to go and just do this?
Completely other thing rightstart at ground zero.
(17:59):
Try and build up from the firstgeneration right, rather than
have a multi-generational thingLike of course.
If you do that, then you have ahigher chance of building a
legacy thing like a familylegacy thing.
That's what you have, thesebusinesses, these family
(18:21):
businesses that have been aroundfor like 100 or so years,
because that's what they did.
That was the strategy.
Angelo (18:30):
I kind of miss that era yeah when it was like an
apprenticeship sort of deal, andeven if it wasn't, your
immediate family it would.
Matt (18:36):
There would just be an intimate sharing of your
abundance of skill yeah, andit's like no, I'm not gonna, you
know, just expect you to go outand just just do it on your own
, like no, like, come with thefamily and come help build this
thing.
Angelo (18:50):
And there's a pride in your craft.
You know whatever you're doing.
Let's say you're like ashoemaker and you just know how
to make any kind of shoe.
You're fast at it, you're goodat it.
You have something unique toyour brand.
These are everybody knows yourstyle of shoe that you make.
Oh yeah you want to pass that onto the next, and if you don't
(19:11):
have children of your own, whoare you going to pass it on to?
Well, you've got to bringsomeone in.
And I feel like that wholeapprentice idea is sort of lost
with time.
We live in an era where it'skind of like go into the system
and learn, just we're going tothrow a bunch of skills at you
(19:32):
and you kind of just narrow itdown from there and, once you
get your okay, your sheet ofpaper, go and figure it out,
good luck.
And there's no intimacy there.
There there's no um, you don'treally have a close mentor
necessarily.
I mean it's not completely gone.
There are definitely mentorsand apprenticeships and things
(19:55):
still going on, but I just thinkin our culture people think, uh
, the job, the career idea hasbegun become like a so dead,
it's like a graveyard.
Matt (20:10):
Yeah maybe it goes there's , no, there's no personal touch
to it yeah, um, maybe it goeshand in hand with this very kind
of american idea too of theindividualism and the you know,
pull yourself, and there's a lotof merits, thatism and the you
know, pull yourself up, andthere's a lot of merits to that
(20:30):
too, like the personal grit andthe personal sovereignty of your
individual experience and yourindividual power, you know.
But that doesn't mean that youindividually have to go it alone
, right, you can bring that intowhatever venture it is that
you're doing and have that, thatsense of vitality and power.
(20:53):
and you know that optimism ofabundance in what you're doing
right.
Angelo (20:58):
I would tie it back to like the industrial revolution,
I think, once we startedtreating people like assembly
lines and people started turninginto these uh machines because
the process to make thingsbecame more complex, you needed
several stages, right.
So this guy's doing this pieceand this guy's doing this piece,
(21:20):
and you're kind of going downthe line to make this
complicated thing that you wouldnever be able to make as
efficiently on your own.
Once that sort of mindsetstarted happening, how can you
have your own personal touch tosomething that's bigger than you
?
And so it's almost like thecompany's brand becomes the
(21:44):
personal touch.
Chris (21:45):
But you know, I think whatever happens with you know,
factories and branding and theeconomy, that's one thing, but I
I would like to return to thefact that everything that we
just said is like a perfectmetaphor for non, uh, like
immaterial abundance, um,because that's what we kind of,
(22:06):
the whole apprenticeship thingthat's, and passing something on
to our legacy.
That's what we do with ourfaiths, right, and our religions
that we ascribe to.
It's like these ancient ideas,excuse me, it's like these
ancient ideas of philosophy andtheology and god and virtue all
channeled into like a singlefaith and for Christians, right,
(22:32):
a single symbol or a single manthat become spiritually and
immaterially, enters into ourreality and then those graces
and those virtues and those goodthings that we have multiplies
as we share them with others.
Yes, and sometimes thatincludes an apprenticeship, like
(22:56):
a spiritual director, or justlike showing up to the ballgame
and opening up your holy booksand reading it and engaging with
it.
Angelo (23:06):
Makes me think of the and we keep quoting the Bible
here but it makes me think ofthe uh and I we keep quoting the
bible here but it makes methink of the fishes and the
loaves story of christ.
Right, they didn't have enough,and somehow it was more than
enough for everyone to share,even though it was an abundance,
yeah there was an abundance.
Matt (23:26):
Yes, wow, you know.
I think it really speaks tolike the idea of happiness too,
like how we now understand moreof happiness and how we can have
more happiness in our lives andsay we have a group of people
actually there's an excellentanalogy for this where you have
(23:51):
this classroom and every singleperson in that classroom has has
a balloon.
They write their name on theballoon, and then they put all
the balloons into the hallwayand they scattered them all
around the place, right, andeveryone's trying to find their
balloon.
It takes them forever, but thenthen, um, then the game changes
(24:12):
and say someone else finds yourballoon and they give it to you,
right, every, all of a sudden,everyone, it comes back you know
the thing of the spoons rightkind of oh yeah, yeah right is
all of a sudden, everyone hastheir own balloon with their
name on it so it's the idea ofthe collective joy and the
(24:33):
collective good, the collectivehappiness.
It's like that.
That kind of happiness is likethe intelligence that you can.
Not only can you experiencehappiness through your own
gratification, but also throughanother person's ground there's
(24:53):
a shared of upwards a sharedabundance and through that you
actually multiply your sourcesof happiness mm-hmm through all
the people who you can light uphappiness within them right and
then you just put yourself inthe very best position to have
multiple sources of abundancearound you in your social circle
(25:16):
.
I mean, what better positioncould you possibly be in than
that?
Angelo (25:22):
Yeah, so the psychologist Piaget studies the
development of children and hewas looking into kids playing
games and what he noticed isthat when you have a group of
kids and there's like maybe onekid who's really good at a game,
if he just tries to dominatethe other kids and just
(25:44):
completely, uh, win every singlegame, maybe he wins in the
short term, but in the long run,those kids, the other kids,
will stop wanting to play withhim.
He becomes like less likely toplay the future game.
So there's like a bigger game,it's like a game within a game.
(26:06):
Yeah, and what he noticed is ifthey're willing to give up a
little or share even a littlemore um than half of what they
have, the other kids pick up onthat and they're like, oh, I
want to play with that kid, Iwant to play with the kid who
lets me win a little more, evenif he wins sometimes.
Matt (26:26):
And uh, that's like the best position to be in is in the
position where you're giving alot to, where other people
notice your generosity andabundance definitely, and when I
think a real leadership qualityin terms of competition is when
(26:47):
you're actually making thepeople that you're playing with
better too, even if and I wouldeven say especially if you're
playing in a game that's inopposition to them, right, like
here's.
Another example is I love chessand my family loves playing
chess, right and whenever.
Angelo (27:07):
Yeah, oh yeah, I'll throw down some chess.
Chris (27:12):
I'll throw down some chess Target target I love it.
Matt (27:16):
So whenever we go on vacation, especially my wife and
I, we have a small chess board,a small portable chess board
that we bring with us.
Right, and we'll make time toplay these games.
Say what we could be having,like a brunch, right, and we'll
play a chess game in the spaceof that brunch wow yeah, it's
(27:37):
pretty cool bunch of nerds, soyeah, and you know, sometimes
she'll get me, sometimes I'llget her, and and I've noticed,
sometimes I've noticed there's,there's also like a
psychological advantage to whochallenges who too oh, really oh
yeah, oh yeah, like shechallenges me, I'm like, okay, I
know she's gonna, she's gonnabring it.
(27:57):
I gotta game up up and then, ifI do the same, I'm like I'm
coming, but you know we'll havelittle chess tournaments and
like the last one that we played.
We just got back from vacationcelebrating my sister and
brother-in-law's vow renewal.
They've been married for 10years.
(28:17):
Nice and yeah, so we got to havea little vacation.
We played chess in this lastgame oh my god, it was like it
was so close.
I thought I was fried like anumber of times, right, but I
was just able to outmaneuver andyou know some different ways
and and then there were just afew you know key missteps that
(28:40):
were made, that she made, thatwas able to like reverse the you
know momentum and and that sortof thing, and and I finally got
it, finally got the, thecheckmate.
The first thing I said was, likeyou know what I just have to
say, like you, really run for mymoney just now, like
acknowledging like she's a,she's a force to be reckoned
(29:01):
with in chess man, like so she'sreally good.
And then we're going and we'reanalyzing the different moves.
You know what went down on theboard.
You know analyzing, looking atthose, what could have been done
differently.
Chris (29:14):
Did you notate them in algebraic notation?
No, not that much.
Matt (29:19):
Oh, okay, wow, oh, never mind.
Hesitation, no, not that much.
Okay, wow, oh, never mind.
No, but I have, I have a chestduring all.
I should probably use that more.
But uh, but I could have justbeen like, oh yeah, oh yeah dude
, you know, but you know what doI get out of that?
so I want my victories to bedefined by how well I did, not
(29:40):
by the mistakes that she made.
I want her to actually be acompetent person to play against
Right, and therefore my playingagainst her will also make me
better.
And then we leapfrog and shebecomes better.
And then I become better andshe becomes better.
We both become better and shebecomes better.
(30:01):
We both become better.
Right, which, if you actuallylook at the word competition, it
ties in with the wordcompetence.
It's about improvement it's notabout one person beating another
person that's, the other peoplein a game are factors to you.
You can only play your game.
(30:23):
You can only play your own game.
Think about that.
You can't control what theother person is going to do.
You can respond, they canrespond to what you're doing,
but you're only ever playingfrom first-person perspective.
Chris (30:42):
And that's true on team things as well right, other
members of your team?
They're not you, you're notthem.
You have to cohesively playtogether in the competition, and
how are you?
Angelo (30:55):
going to get better.
If the other person isn'tseeing something that you're not
seeing, right, you need achallenge in order for if the
other person isn't seeingsomething that you're not seeing
, you need a challenge in orderfor yourself to move forward.
Chris (31:06):
That's right.
Well, it sounds like you andHelena are very gracious chess
players, and I'm not.
Matt (31:15):
You're the kid who nobody wants to play with.
Chris (31:22):
He won't let anybody win.
Too many people bullied me whenI was a child, so they're going
down.
No reciprocity.
Matt (31:34):
I like that ferocity though.
I like it, and that's one thingLike yeah a fierce chess win.
Angelo (31:41):
I give it to you.
The bigger the ego, the harderthe fall.
Matt (31:47):
I will tell you one thing I've noticed.
We'll get back to abundancehere in a second.
Chris (31:51):
Oh yeah, Talk about abundance, yeah right.
Matt (31:55):
But I have noticed that, like if I'm on the defense, like
I usually play as the darkpieces, Sure.
If the light pieces are tryingtoo quickly to get to the back
and to go on the offense, thatactually ends up working against
you a lot of the time, becausethen if I build up my defenses
(32:16):
the right way, if I actuallyovercome that attack, then you
can actually end up losing keypieces in that attack and then I
can reverse the uh, themomentum right, because the dark
pieces are about counter.
They're not about, they're notas much about the, the initial
moves they're.
They're more about response andI'm like giving my right chest,
(32:38):
but they're more aboutintelligently responding.
It's actually a.
I found it's a good challengeplaying as the dark pieces,
because it makes you think rightyou're, you're one step behind.
Angelo (32:52):
And if one thing I've noticed about chess, as well as
most strategic games and jujitsuas well, is that no matter what
position you're in, there'slike a weak point.
So, um, let's keep it at chess,right, if you're, if you've got
like a really solid uh line ofpawns but you haven't really
(33:13):
moved any of your bigger piecesout, maybe you you have a good
defense, but you aren't going tobe able to make uh gain any
momentum from way back herewhile you know, maybe it's hard
to break through your line ofdefense, whereas if you are
playing aggressively, maybeyou're going to be able to take
advantage of a certain spot.
(33:35):
But you, the more you movewildly, the the more you leave
yourself open for an attack.
So it depends on who you'replaying and how they play and
how aggressively.
I love strategy games as well,but abundance.
Chris (33:55):
Oh, back to the topic of abundance Abundance.
You know when I was, um, excuseme, you know when I was, uh,
studying some of our ancienthistory, like right at the cusp
of developing our owncivilizations, and going into
(34:15):
like history, so I guess, justpre-history, like for a moment,
as we had like houses andtemples and like a little bit of
agriculture, fishing, cultureand developing languages and
culture and all this other stuff, for a moment we had world
peace, interesting, and thecause of that was that we had an
(34:40):
abundance of resources.
So we had, like you know right,enough food, enough shelter.
And we were like, hey, do youguys have enough food and
shelter?
Here's some food and shelterfor you guys.
Have at it.
And it was great.
And then we, probably, I, Iwould I would say that we're
still there, in a weird way.
We still have an abundance ofmoney and food and enough
(35:03):
entertainment to go around.
Angelo (35:05):
It's just that it's all going to a small percentage.
It's accumulated to a smallpercentage of people.
Chris (35:12):
But I think we could still have that.
We just read up on our historya little bit, know that we have
an abundance and figure out howto get that abundance to more
people.
Angelo (35:23):
I think we've got a ways to go, good luck.
Well, I think it's acommunication issue, because I
think even if two people arewilling to go that route, they
both have different ideas on howto get there.
There's going to be a bumpingof heads, and there's just right
now.
We live in such an antagonisticpolitical climate.
Chris (35:49):
I think this two-party system Exactly, I think
communication's actually asymptom of the real issue, which
is that there's a scarcity ofspiritual power in the world
okay, go deeper, into that okayuh, there was a short period in
(36:12):
my life in recent history whereI had, um, an abundance of
spiritual power and I wassharing it with the people
around me right, my family andit was.
It was weird because thesepsychological and emotional
issues that I've been dealingwith for my entire life were
(36:35):
suddenly resolved by this gracethat I was given and I know that
if I can attain it like thisyou know, I don't want to be too
self-deprecating here, but likeyou know, this person who had
had his moment of degeneracyright in his life and
(36:58):
deconstructed his faith if I cango back and attain that and
share it with people, I thinkanybody can do that.
It's not going to be easy, butI think if we bring more of that
spiritual power and energy andgrace into the world, so I'm
(37:18):
trying to figure out exactlywhat you mean by spiritual power
.
Angelo (37:21):
When you say you had an abundance, what?
Chris (37:25):
what well, I?
I specifically mean thechristian idea of grace.
Okay, I should probably definethat later.
Let's put grace down, becauseI'm not sure I have a good
working definition for grace,but I know I had it and I know
when I had it, suddenly all ofthe material things of the earth
(37:50):
just didn't feel like they wereworthy of my attention and my
focus anymore.
The only thing that was worthyof my attention was God, and the
more I was able to tap intothat, the only metaphoric thing
was God was like this ball oflight here and I was tapping
into it and it was flowing in aconfluent relationship with me
(38:14):
and me, with it and him, andthat grace was flowing out into
the world.
Angelo (38:20):
And you feel, like now, that that state of mind was a
positive thing, or do you feellike that was an?
Chris (38:25):
illusion.
Angelo (38:26):
I feel like it was a positive and real thing okay,
which is interesting because Iwe were talking earlier about
the notion of care and attentionto other things in your reality
and the fullness that you canhave of giving attention to even
(38:48):
the minute things in life.
That's almost like a polaropposite idea idea.
But I mean, when you say yougave your your full attention to
god, what I'm, I guess thatthat's just a very um abstract
(39:12):
thing to think about.
I'm kind of like, what did youmean by god in that sense?
Do you mean like the source ofbeing you were just fully
attentive to?
Chris (39:26):
So I guess, right, as a Christian, I was tapped into the
spirit of Christ.
Okay, right.
So the spirit, the immaterialthing that drives a human body
and mind, and christ, the, thesalvation of jesus, right, the
(39:57):
christ, it means an immaterialthing that was spilling out into
physical reality.
So I would argue that we havean abundance of like sensual
things that we can enjoy, right,like food, entertainment, but
(40:19):
we have a scarcity of temperance.
There's like a scarcity ofvirtue that we need to amend.
And when we amend that scarcityof virtue, we'll amend our
abundance problem as well.
Matt (40:37):
So what I'm hearing here?
That?
Was powerful, for sure.
Angelo (40:40):
Wow.
So what I'm hearing here isthere's like a level of like
physical objects and materialthings.
Right, you can have abundanceof food, you can have an
abundance of wealth or stuff orwhatever.
And then there's like anotherlevel where and you're talking
about the level of virtue, whichmaybe there's actually multiple
levels here of virtue, whichmaybe there's actually multiple
(41:03):
levels here but I would say thelevel of virtue is it has to do
something with, um, it's evenour capacity to relate to those
physical things, in a sense Like, if you're talking about
temperance, um, that's yourtemperance would be like how, uh
(41:27):
, how do I put this?
Temperance would be somethinglike how you, how much of that
stuff that you're willing totake in?
Or if you're, if you'readdicted to that stuff, you're
kind of like taking too much in.
I'm trying to think of theright phrasing to put it.
Matt (41:56):
I think it comes back to this Like you can freely pick it
up or put it down when you needto, right pick it up or put it
down when you need to so you'renot attached to it, but you're
not just letting things slidethrough your fingers, because
you can be a slave to an objector a need.
Angelo (42:18):
You can be a glutton, you can be lustful, you can be
greedy let's not complicate ittoo much.
Chris (42:24):
Let's just say it's like chocolate cake, right, you don't
want to have like too much, youdon't want to grasp too much
chocolate cake for yourself.
That's not.
You're addicted to thechocolate cake, then you don't
want to completely depriveyourself of it.
You know, not necessarily,unless you know there was a
christian thing called fasting.
I think I mean probably inother religions as well.
(42:45):
That's funny.
Angelo (42:46):
I mean it's okay to enjoy chocolate a lot, but you
can enjoy it.
Matt (42:50):
I don't know if you guys have seen it.
By the way, it's a really goodone to watch in terms of
chocolate and abundance andscarcity, anyway, but continue.
Angelo (42:58):
So the temperance here would be your ability to not
take too much but not depriveyourself unnecessarily.
Matt (43:08):
Yeah, I think to not take too much, but not deprive
yourself unnecessarily.
Chris (43:10):
Yeah, I think that would be.
That's a good definition ofyeah, temperance, right, there's
also prudence, right, yes, andyour ability to judge situations
one of the yeah four carnalvirtues I think are justice
temperance, prudence, and is itcourage.
Yes.
Angelo (43:36):
Oh yeah, good with my Greek.
Chris (43:37):
Didn't even have to stop.
He was just like it's this,this, this and this.
Angelo (43:40):
Yes, you guys fluffed me up, got an abundance of
compliments here what can we say?
I can name all seven dwarvesbut no, no, no that's, that's,
(44:05):
no, that's that's.
Matt (44:06):
Another element too is the balance between, say, the
people who, the people who arelike overly flattering, and also
the people who may be overlycritical too, and to take both
with a grain of salt, you know,it's like there could be some
(44:28):
things that they're genuinelypointing to, like you could have
some genuinely amazingattributes about you, and
they're just.
They're just, you know,genuinely enthusiastic about you
and genuinely what's what's amuch better word admiring, you
know, genuinely admiring of you.
And then there are the peoplewho could be overly critical and
(44:51):
they could put and be pointingout the spots where perhaps
could use some improvementthey're both.
They could be both doing you afavor really because also people
who are critical, could bepointing out areas where you
could improve, and they couldsay, no, thank you for that,
awesome.
Then you take that and then youknow you don't have to take the
negative emotions or negativity.
(45:13):
You kind of go, okay, cool, butthen you go back to the center.
You know, like, what's thetruth within both of those
statements.
You know.
Angelo (45:24):
There's also an aspect of envy there.
These people could be beingtwo-faced, like if you've ever
seen the mean girls.
They're like oh I love that top, and then that top is the
ugliest right, there's like athere's like a two-faced you
know, backhanded compliment.
They're almost taking that gamethat I talked about earlier
(45:46):
with the kids, and another levelof it is I'm going to make you
think that I'm playing with youand then, behind your back, I'll
betray you.
Chris (45:56):
So humans are complicated .
Angelo (45:58):
Oh, whoa man, you get levels man.
Matt (46:01):
Let me write that down.
Oh my god.
Angelo (46:05):
Are you really going to?
Matt (46:05):
write that down, god.
Let me make a note of that.
But I mean the element of Imean the element of envy there
is they.
Angelo (46:19):
They see that you have something that they wish they
had and you are like areflection of their um
iniquities.
What do you?
What do you?
Matt (46:30):
call it.
They're a reflectioninadequacies.
There you go.
Angelo (46:33):
Yes so they're like, oh like, I want to say something,
but there's a there's not agenuine spirit of admiration
underneath.
Matt (46:47):
So there's there's two parts in that I want to talk
about too is there's the twoqualities, like there's the
positive um mentality ofabundance right and then there's
this charge to go and do things.
That makes that abundancepossible, right?
So it's like you can't if youhave one, if you have this
(47:10):
person who just you have like areally good figure, you go to
the gym, you know this personlike takes care of themselves
and you're lifting, you're doingall these good things, you know
nutrition, you got that onpoint.
And then like, oh, look at thisgym rat, look at this person,
whatever it's like, and ifyou're envious, it's like, don't
feel bad about the work thatyou didn't do that that person
(47:35):
did to go into to refine theirform and do like, if you don't
want to go to the gym, don't goto the gym, but don't don to the
gym, but don't, don't, you know, put on this front and this
negativity and this, like youknow, this false.
Angelo (47:49):
Trying to drag someone else down to your level?
Yeah, exactly Right, becausethey your lazy ass level, yeah
right.
Chris (47:58):
Because that person had the positive growth mindset and
the oomph to go and do the thingto get the abundance that they
wanted to get right right so ifyou have a scarcity of that
right, stop in the moment ofwhere you are and bring an
abundance of virtue to yourself,yeah, and then decide go to the
(48:21):
gym or eat a salad, maybe doboth, or, if you're already
there, you're.
Angelo (48:27):
You're getting fit, you're in a positive spin,
you've got an abundance of thatvirtue.
Share with others.
Yes, bring that mindset topeople that you care about.
Share with someone that and notnot to lower lord over them,
like uh, you think that you'rebetter than them, or anything,
but like, hey, this is somethingthat I find joy in this,
(48:49):
something that makes me happy,and I want to share that with
you well, I want you to feel thesame way that I do and
hopefully there's a good spiritof that in the spirit of
missionary work.
Chris (49:00):
Right like it says it's either Acts or it's Romans, but
the Bible says the apostles andthe disciples of Jesus.
They gave up everything thatthey had to go preach the word
of God and that's the idea Likethey had something real, they
had something good that gavethem an abundance of virtue and
joy.
(49:20):
They were like and I think evenpeter says to uh, a paralytic
outside the temple, he says Idon't have much, but what I have
I will give you stand and behealed in the name of jesus, and
he does, and he is healed inthe name of jesus.
Angelo (49:38):
And just like the fishes and loaves, even if he doesn't
have much yeah, it's enough hemultiplies it yeah, the point
where he's spiritually.
Chris (49:48):
I do think that parallel is a spiritual metaphor.
Angelo (49:52):
It's not about physically multiplying food.
It's about you can do that toowith your spiritual.
Matt (50:00):
Well, yes, yeah, let's go to the how to bring that like
how to materialize it yeah, likesay, how say you have I love
going back to the potential ofthe thing, the thought, the
non-formness of the thing,visualizing at first, right.
So say you have an idea in yourmind whether it's, you know, an
(50:25):
abundance of virtue, anabundance of friends.
An abundance of virtue, anabundance of friends, an
abundance of faith, an abundanceof wealth, all those things.
It starts as aconceptualization first, right,
yes, and then you focus on that.
And where we focus, like weimagine the water flowing
towards it, imagine, likeirrigation ditches, that your
(50:49):
thoughts as water are flowingtowards that thing.
Right, so you can direct yourthoughts in a certain direction
right, and the more that youpoint your thoughts towards that
, the more this.
Now I love this.
I don't know if you guyschecked out the uh, was it it
the Strangest Secret?
By Earl Nightingale.
He did this amazing, amazingradio address where he talks all
(51:13):
about this and one of the keypoints that he makes in there,
that wise people have said overand over and over again, from
all different cultures cultureslike what you think about all
day long.
You then become right.
So you shape your behaviors,you shape your life by your
(51:34):
thoughts right and the energyyou put into your thoughts.
So being so, you know, so youthink about that all the time.
You know you think aboutyourself as a strong, so you
think about that all the timeyou know you think about
yourself as a strong person.
You think about yourself asabundantly in faith and you
focus on that.
You pour your energy and yourfocus into that.
(51:57):
Then that magnifies and thatmaterializes and the irrigation
ditches of your thoughts and thewater flowing towards them then
shapes your mind.
That then goes into yourexternal reality.
Right, yeah, because you arethat, because you are being that
(52:24):
, because you've just spent somuch time thinking about it.
That that's.
Angelo (52:33):
Your thoughts become words and words become actions,
actions become habits and habitsbecome it impacts the world
around you.
Matt (52:43):
So it's through that impact that you make that change
possible, that you make thatthing gravitate into your life.
So that's really what it is.
I mean, if you were to make apractice of just of setting
aside time to think about thesethings and to pour energy, to
(53:04):
pour enthusiasm and that oomphinto those thoughts you know, or
care like we talked aboutearlier.
Angelo (53:12):
Yeah, put some some care and some will into into those
thoughts yeah, the doing of, andthat's really.
Matt (53:19):
It is the bringing them from the thoughts into the body
you know, and your body as themedium that then brings them
into your external reality.
Chris (53:29):
That's great.
Angelo (53:35):
Alright, well, honestly, I think that was a pretty good
talk on abundance.
Chris (53:43):
I think so.
Angelo (53:44):
I think it might be a good stopping place to kind of
wrap it up and uh, thank you allfor joining us.
We had a great time talkingabout abundance and scarcity
with you and, um, if you've madeit this far, thank you for
sticking around.
We hope that you'll join us forthe next one.
(54:04):
Have a good one.
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