January 15, 2025 • 54 mins
Have you ever pondered the stark contrast between feeling shame in solitude and guilt among peers? Join us on the Telos Initiative podcast for a compelling exploration of these mysterious emotions. We unravel how cultural norms shape our perception of shame while guilt often aligns with universal moral principles. Imagining scenarios like feeling shame on a deserted island, we discuss how our upbringing and cultural environment craft our emotional responses. By reflecting on the biblical tale of Adam and Eve, we contemplate how shame can lead to hiding or shifting blame and its powerful impact on personal identity and community dynamics.
Our journey continues as we navigate the ever-evolving landscape of cultural norms and their influence on feelings of shame and guilt. From ancient customs to modern social etiquette, we question the relevance of longstanding traditions in today's diverse world. By comparing historical gestures like the middle finger to infamous symbols, we illustrate how cultural perceptions can shift and what that means for individual expression. Through diverse cultural lenses, we highlight the importance of understanding how societal expectations and personal values can sometimes clash, challenging us to find harmony between our heritage and individuality.
In our final chapter, we focus on the virtues of integrity, honor, and the transformative power of shame when embraced as a tool for growth. Sharing personal stories, we underscore the significance of teaching children about honor and creating a family code that celebrates values like accountability and fun. We also explore how internalized shame can be a roadblock, turning self-improvement into a daunting task rather than a path to betterment. By recognizing the importance of expressing genuine emotions, like remorse, we emphasize the profound journey of self-acceptance. With heartfelt gratitude, we thank you for joining this enlightening exploration into the intricate world of shame and emotional expression.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Angelo (00:02):
Hello everyone, welcome to the Telos Initiative podcast.
I'm Angelo Cole, I'm ChrisVigil.
Matt (00:09):
And I'm Matt Maes.
Angelo (00:10):
Today, our topic is going to be shame, so I guess
the first thing, what we alwaysdo, is try to define what it is
we're talking about.
Shame is a little bit of atricky one, because a lot of
people confuse shame with guilt,so I think it would be good to
(00:35):
try and differentiate the two.
Shame, I would say, issomething more akin to breaking
a cultural boundary, while guiltis more breaking a moral
boundary and feeling wrong aboutthat.
(00:55):
So I feel guilty when I dosomething I consider immoral,
but I feel shame when I dosomething embarrassing you can
be found guilty in a court oflaw, but you can't be found
shameful, true?
Matt (01:16):
oh, and that's that is interesting.
When someone says we'lldescribe something as as
shameless, like how could you?
You know, how could you do that?
Angelo (01:25):
That's true because the way we use it is somewhat
associated with guilt, so it'snot.
Maybe breaking moral boundariesalso is associated with
cultural boundaries as well.
Or maybe when you say shame onyou when you're doing something
(01:46):
wrong, there's a guilt thingthere.
Matt (01:50):
Well, and it's important to identify distinction between
like when you do something badversus like when you feel I am
bad, which seems to me is thedistinction between shame and
guilt right, say you've donesomething that is morally wrong
(02:10):
and you feel bad about it.
Say you, you know, tooksomething from someone else that
they needed just for your, yourown sustenance or your own gain
, and that person is kind ofleft out in the wind.
You're like, wow, I feel guiltyabout that?
you did a bad thing, then it'sthe identification with that
that you, you.
(02:31):
Those two things, shame andguilt are so close together that
we have to be really consciousabout not carrying that
identification with us.
Angelo (02:43):
Here's a question Do you feel shame on a remote island,
or is shame necessarily part ofa communal thing?
Like shame is related to yourfeeling about how others are
judging you.
Matt (02:58):
I think that can depend on if you really integrate that
feeling of shame or internalizeI should say, not integrate.
When you really identify withthat feeling of shame, you see
you're like, oh, there's nobodyout here on this island and you
know you're comparing yourselfto someone who may be living a
(03:21):
quote normal life.
You say I don't have any money.
I don't have any money, I don'thave any friends, all that type
of stuff.
Angelo (03:27):
You can feel ashamed about that or perhaps you're not
living up to your potential andyou're ashamed that you're.
You're not doing something likemaybe I'm still thinking on the
remote island scenario likemaybe you're trying to catch
some food for yourself andyou're just so incompetent at
(03:47):
throwing spearfishing orsomething that you're ashamed
that you couldn't do it properly.
Chris (03:56):
I don't know well, on a remote island, right, you
probably have to kill an animalto eat something, right?
Are you gonna feel guilty aboutthat?
You might feel guilty, but youmight not feel shamed, true?
Angelo (04:10):
when I think of shame, I think of nakedness, like I
would feel ashamed orembarrassed to be it's.
It's a vulnerability yeah.
Chris (04:24):
So if I'm, if I'm breaking a moral or cultural
code, let me think about that,hang on.
So if I'm breaking a culturalor moral code, that's like in
some sense like who I am, like.
(04:45):
I should identify with thatsomehow and that's where my
shame's coming from, because I'massociated with that bad thing.
That's like a vulnerability formyself.
Okay, does that make sense?
Angelo (05:00):
sure, maybe you can feel ashamed in relation to yourself
, right, it's a self-perceptionsort of thing.
But I almost feel like you geta lot of that from your culture.
Yeah, you're trying to live upto cultural standards, even when
you're alone at some point.
Absolutely, children don'treally have shame, right.
(05:23):
It's kind of taught, you learnto be ashamed of certain things.
Kids run around naked with noshame whatsoever.
They eat whatever, they'll eatdisgusting things or they'll say
things to people that are rudeor or mean, or it can be very
(05:49):
blunt, but they just don't havethat understanding of cultural
norms.
So I would say the child isshameless, but not in like the
negative connotation that youmentioned earlier.
Matt (06:01):
Yeah Well, it's like you're running around and
discovering where, where, allthe boundaries to certain things
are right right like say youknow I do this, oh, you know
mama got angry or papa got angry, or you know this type of thing
happened.
You know this thing broke, thisimportant thing broke and you
discover this distinctionbetween yourself and the world,
(06:25):
which it's interesting thinkingabout, that, that immediate
connection that you feel as achild, as a newborn, like oh,
(06:51):
there's this thing called lifethat seems to be around me and
that I have to work with it andbump my head against certain
things.
And it's interesting.
When you talk about thenakedness, I actually think
about the first story in theBible, right, where you have the
tree of the knowledge of goodand evil.
You have the apple, the tree ofthe knowledge of good and evil.
We have the apple and you knowwe as the story as we know it,
like eve takes the apple, bitesof the apple and then she and
(07:13):
adam become aware of their naked.
Now this is interestingpsychologically to me, like yes,
they took the apple and, yes,they bit the apple, but their
response when God looks down andsays, oh, oh, where are you?
And they're ashamed of theirnakedness.
Chris (07:32):
And then they point the finger.
Matt (07:34):
Right.
And so what do they do?
What do they do out of theshame, like, oh, you know, you
want to hide or you want to.
Angelo (07:41):
It wasn't me.
It was her oh it wasn't me, itwas, it was her.
Matt (07:46):
Oh, it wasn't me, it was a snake all these, all this
domino effect of differentproblems that arise out of that
shame, like, say they knew theywere naked and god's like, oh,
where are you?
It's like, oh yeah, we're naked, we're here, but they were
honest about it.
Would that have been adifferent result than that story
?
I think it may have it's tough.
Angelo (08:08):
It's tough to own up to your iniquities.
Um, yeah, I think when youraise kids you notice that a lot
in small children, like whenthey know they've done something
wrong, their instinct is topush the blame immediately.
(08:28):
It's like oh, it wasn't me, itwas, or it's not really my fault
.
This is why I did this, youknow, and I almost think growing
out of that pattern and andlearning to take ownership for
your mistakes is a sign ofmaturity.
Oh, it is, but it has to dealwith a lot with shame, because
(08:49):
shame's almost there to push youto, uh, to recognize your,
recognize your place in society.
Perhaps that's it's sort offunction, right?
Matt (09:05):
It's the, it's the awareness, but then not getting
stuck there, which can be adifficult distinction, because
you need to be able to have thathope that separates the shame
from the guilt.
By that I mean the shame beingthe identification with being
bad.
(09:26):
Whereas guilt is I did this badthing, which you can take
responsibility andaccountability for doing
whatever that bad thing was, andsaying how can I take a
different action in the futureto produce a different result,
(09:46):
to take a different action inthe future to produce a
different result.
So then you can take that badthing that you did and make it
so that that's not going tohappen in the future, because
you've been able to integratethe lesson from what you did,
which is much harder to do fromshame than it is from simply
recognizing, with guilt, likeyou can take you know it's like
(10:07):
it's like guilt is like a doseof shame that you're able to,
that you can be able to processand then go like oh, oh, snap,
that hurt.
I don't want to do that again.
I don't want to.
Chris (10:19):
You know, I don't want to be that way, right and being
able to transform out of that soif guilt is like a dose of
shame, I mean, do we think?
I mean, I think it kind of begsthe question are we going to
take responsibility for ouractions if we don't feel any
(10:40):
shame at all?
I mean, do you have to have alittle bit of shame, a little
bit of guilt If I'm on thatisland and I kill that animal?
Is it a good thing that I feela twinge of like oh, I'm sorry.
Angelo (10:50):
Yeah, I think you're right.
That's probably why it's.
A little bit of shame ishealthy for a person, maybe a
sociopath or someone who doesn'treally care about their
relation to others and feels noshame when they do things.
They're like so what, I didthis thing?
What's wrong with that?
(11:12):
I would assume I'm not like apsychologist or anything, so I
don't know if sociopaths don'tfeel shame, but I would think
that if you're, if sociopathsdon't feel shame but, um, I
would think that if you're, I, I, I associate shame with, like a
connection to uh, culturalnorms.
(11:34):
So I think if you've gotsomething, some sort of uh
dysfunction in the way that youconnect with other people, that
there it.
That probably feeds intowhether or not you feel shame.
But I mean, I'm not sure.
Matt (11:51):
Yeah, if that's true, well , it makes sense, right.
Well, here's another side ofthe coin, too is I love the
distinction that you madebetween the like, the cultural
say faux pas with, versus guiltis like a moral thing, a moral,
you know, failing of some kind,right, so that that's more
(12:14):
universal, that's more somethingthat is, or should be, like,
baked into us a sense of rightand wrong and honor, and, you
know, good, you know promotionof well-being versus laws that
are man-made right things thatwe've kind of invented for one
(12:34):
reason or another, but thatdoesn't mean that they are
universally.
I mean that there's such thingas having unfounded,
illegitimate rules, right, likewhy do we do all these different
things?
Like, why do we actually havethese different norms?
Is this universally substantial?
(12:56):
Is there any like sovereignthing about these, about all
these rules that I'm supposed tobe following, that if I'm not,
then I'm out of step somehow.
Chris (13:07):
Sure.
Matt (13:07):
It's good to question those things too.
Are these rules actually valid?
Angelo (13:15):
I would say there's probably levels, right.
There are things that areclearly localized to certain
regions, certain cultures orcertain areas.
Localized to certain regions,certain cultures or certain
areas.
You know, it's rude in ourculture to stick up the middle
finger and flip someone off, butthat might mean something
completely different in anotherculture and someone, someone who
(13:37):
doesn't understand that anduses the middle finger or gets
tricked into it by a mischievousAmerican, that person we would
kind of Mischievous American.
Matt (13:52):
I mean think about it.
Angelo (13:54):
You might trick a If you knew.
Someone didn't know what themiddle finger meant you might
like Egg egg.
Matt (14:00):
lift the middle finger.
Angelo (14:01):
Just say hi.
This is how we say hi.
Just say hi to that group ofbikers over there.
So someone who doesn'tunderstand the cultural norm,
they're not going to seeanything wrong with something
like that.
And then even across time, youknow that it might change.
Maybe in the distant future themiddle finger will mean
(14:23):
something completely different.
Maybe in the distant future themiddle finger will mean
something completely differentand they'll look back in time
and see stuff happening in ourmovies and be like what are they
trying to say with this symbol?
Matt (14:36):
It's an interesting thing to think about.
It's a sign for peace.
Angelo (14:40):
Yeah, peace among worlds right.
Yeah, we among worlds rightyeah, become a peace, but I
forget where I was going withthat.
But I think, well, there'slevels, right, you can
definitely localize some norms,but even within your local
(15:03):
community, breaking those normsmight come with a sense of shame
so it's.
Chris (15:11):
It's illegal to kill anyone in cold blood across the
world.
I would imagine, right likethat's codified in into law.
Um, it is not illegal to hailhitler someone across the world,
but it is illegal in Germany,okay.
Matt (15:29):
That's illegal in Germany.
Chris (15:30):
It is straight up illegal in Germany.
Angelo (15:34):
And if you did that in America, it's not necessarily
illegal, but people woulddefinitely shame you for doing
it Right.
So, because of how atrociouswell, that definitely is tied
into something moral because ofthe atrocities that Hitler
(15:55):
committed, you're associatingyourself and praising a man who
did something so morally wrongthat even uh, even using that
hand symbol is is associatedwith.
Matt (16:11):
Yeah, he ruined that mustache for everyone charlie
chaplin and that that used to bea very popular mustache in
germany too.
Angelo (16:22):
And then right, it's like I've kind of ruined it for
everybody who wants to have thatmustache, yeah it's like people
try to say, well, charlieChaplin yeah, it's like.
I don't know, man, you'repushing the limit with that one
yeah, hitler is more famous thanCharlie Chaplin, unfortunately.
No, yeah for sure.
Matt (16:47):
Also, I think it's rare, I think, for a man to be able to
pull off just a mustache.
I mean, if you can rock amustache then good for you.
But generally, just try out abeard, try out a full set, see
how you feel.
Angelo (17:09):
Mussolini no, that's a stalling beard he's trying to
take the pot and go like this.
Matt (17:22):
He's trying to stir that pot.
I have no shame.
You're full of puns today,angelo.
He's trying to take the pot andgo like this, stirring it.
Angelo (17:24):
He's trying to stir that pot.
I have no shame.
You're full of puns today,angelo, yeah, but I guess maybe
I was trying to think of.
I was trying to think of maybesomething that would be
(17:46):
universally shameful, but notnecessarily universe like, not
necessarily associated withguilt, and I don't know if I, if
I can think of anything.
So maybe, maybe shame is sortof localized, in the general
sense it's, it's subjective toeach and every culture or or
(18:10):
region.
Matt (18:10):
It could be Well, I think you nailed it with uh, with the
nakedness.
Chris (18:16):
Yeah, that's the first thing that comes to my mind.
Matt (18:18):
The awareness, of the awareness of nakedness.
There's the story about liesand truth and them as two women
hurt going through this town andthey're traipsing along and
then they get to.
They get to this spring andthey both get naked and they get
(18:41):
in right, but then it's abouttime to get out and lies.
The woman takes both of theirclothes and runs off, and so
truth is left naked and she'srunning around trying to get her
clothes back.
But everybody's like, you know,like that because they didn't
want to see the naked truth.
Angelo (19:03):
Oh, that's clever.
Matt (19:08):
Yeah.
Angelo (19:09):
I can't believe I didn't see where you were going with
that yeah.
But you know there are tribeswhere people are way more naked
than what we would considerculturally appropriate.
Chris (19:25):
And and for them it's normal because they don't feel
any kind of way about it yeaheven, even uh nakedness has its
its cultural limitations yeah,and the next example I thought
of after that was just goingright back to like animal
(19:45):
killing right, but tribal peoplethey hunt, but we don't we kind
of send them into these weirdfactories and and butcher them
that way.
You know, maybe we should beashamed of that, somehow, like
we're not dealing with our owndeath in a way yeah well, we
outsource our, our sourcing, ourhunting, we outsource it.
Angelo (20:10):
So we don't even have to look at the reality of it.
We just go to the grocery storeand is there anything shameful
about that?
Chris (20:21):
like I sometimes I feel like I'm not taking
responsibility for.
I used to think this way whenin college like I'm not taking
responsibility for.
I used to think this way whenin college, like I'm not taking
responsibility for my life ifI'm not somehow involved in the
killing of this own animal I'mabout to eat, I think it has to
do with a degree of intention,like I wouldn't feel shameful
(20:42):
going to a different country andnot understanding their norms
and making a mistake.
Angelo (20:48):
I wouldn't call that shame.
I might be like slightlyembarrassed if they're all kind
of laughing and I'm like, oh, Imessed it up, but I would think
that they have a degree ofunderstanding that hey, I'm not
from here, there's no shame inthat, and so there's some
intention thing associated withit.
When it comes to outsourcing thehunting to slaughterhouses and
(21:14):
things like that, to what degreedo we really have control over
what we eat?
It's very challenging to sourceyour own food.
Even if you're very consciousabout oh, I, I'm a vegan and I
don't want to eat animalproducts like you're gonna
really have to go out of yourway to make that lifestyle work
(21:37):
because that stuff is just soeverywhere and virtually easy
access.
So if it depends on the degreeto which you're you're willing
to, um, take up that cause andsome people do take it very
seriously some people think thatthere are other, bigger
(21:57):
problems and they're like Idon't have the time and energy
to really source my own food tothat level, I am just going to
have to deal with what societyhas laid out for me.
Chris (22:12):
Yeah.
Angelo (22:13):
And so, personally, I don't feel any guilt or shame in
buying meats from the grocerystore.
I didn't build the system.
Chris (22:22):
Right, and that's a societal value right I didn't
build the system right andthat's a societal value right,
and so that's why you would feelthat certain degree of shame
from that societal value if Ihad a greater degree of control.
Angelo (22:32):
If someone was like here , you need to uh, kill your
animals from now on.
Um, well, still, I don't really.
I think if it's for feeding myfamily and, uh, nutrients and
things like that, I don't really.
I think if it's for feeding myfamily and nutrients and things
like that, I don't consider thatimmoral personally, but I'm not
going to go around shootinganimals for fun or trying to
(22:56):
hunt down endangered species orthings like that.
That's where it starts toventure into a bit of immorality
for me.
Chris (23:04):
Right.
And then we start getting intothe topic of guilt.
From there, I think, sure Right.
I would feel guilty if I killthe bald eagle because, well,
it's not even necessarily thatyou would feel guilty, but you
would be guilty of killing theseanimals and be guilty of acting
(23:25):
like a psychopath sure?
Angelo (23:29):
well, I mean guilt in the legal sense, yes, but I
guess you can use the word guiltjust as a feeling, too right?
I can feel guilty even if I'mnot legally guilty, right?
Chris (23:44):
Yeah, yeah, there are two qualities to guilt right, you
can be guilty and you can feelguilty, but shame you can only
feel, shame, you can't.
You could be shamed by othersand maybe you could feel
shameful, I guess, but I don'tknow if there's a like, a being
of of shame so maybe shamegenerally is always subjective,
(24:10):
at least in a cultural sense,unless you consider guilt a form
of shame.
Okay, yeah, I could buy that,maybe, maybe, maybe.
Matt (24:24):
Like if we say shame is the larger thing, that guilt is
then contained within.
Angelo (24:30):
Right, then we're talking about morals and it
depends on your if you thinkmorals are objective or
subjective.
But if you think guilt andshame are two separate things
and shame is always associatedwith cultural embarrassment,
then I don't think anybody woulddisagree that that's always
(24:54):
localized.
I can't think of a universalexample of shame well, we go
back.
Matt (25:02):
This goes back to like social implications too, like
archaic, like socialimplications.
Like when you were in a in atribe and say you did something
that so went against like theorder of the tribe, right, and
that actually caused problemswithin that and they deemed that
you had to be kicked out, right, like you're ostracized, you're
(25:23):
banished from the tribe andthen you have to go and fend for
yourself.
So that has a lot of tangibleimplications.
Like back then, if you got cutoff from the tribe, you were
cast out into danger.
You didn't know if you're goingto be eaten by a saber-toothed
tiger or just you would have amuch more difficult time finding
(25:44):
the resources that you need andthe social connections that you
need.
Now you can be cut off from atribe today in all sorts of
different ways.
We have interests based on ourvalues or our interests and you
know you can form up into clicks, right, and if you're cut off
from that click, then it's likeoh, you know, where else am I
(26:05):
going to go?
Is cut off from these people.
But the difference from backthen is we have so much more
latitude of movement andabundance of resources around us
than we did back then, like ifyou get cut off, now you can
find, you can find another tribemuch more easily than you could
(26:30):
back then.
There are tribes all over theplace, right, and it even
benefits you to have a diversityof different tribes.
I would say too, say you couldhave this pond of friends over
here, this pond of friends overhere and over here, and you can
even overlap them.
(26:50):
You can introduce peoplebetween those different circles
of friends that you have, thoseyou know different circles of
friends that you have, and youcan broaden yourself in terms of
the ways that you're able toconceive the world around you
too.
Yeah, you know so if you cantake that little little dose of
say uh, you know, I was withthese people over here.
(27:12):
I didn't really fit in, youknow, instead of internalizing
that shame, you can go hey, youknow what, like there's, there's
a lot more abundance aroundthan if I'm just focusing on
being rejected or cut off fromthis person or this group or any
(27:33):
of that type of stuff there issomething to be said for.
Angelo (27:37):
Maybe shame can be misplaced, like maybe there's a
sense in which you can feelashamed about something, but you
shouldn't be.
And I think we see a lot ofthat underlying critique in our
current culture where people aresaying, hey, some of these
(27:57):
things are societal norms, butthey shouldn't be.
We shouldn't be feeling ashamedfor being this way or doing
this thing.
It's just.
You'll hear people say thingslike it's just made up, it's
just man made.
Why do we have to abide by anyof this cultural norms?
(28:21):
And so that does bring intoquestion like what is the, what
is the utility of havingcultural normativity right?
Like why do we?
Why, why do we have to dress acertain way for certain rituals?
Like you know, why is itshameful to go to a wedding in
(28:45):
casual clothing?
Or is it shameful anymore?
Like, I would say, modernweddings?
There's probably a lot ofweddings where people just dress
how they always dress and theydon't care and they're just like
what's wrong with?
me being myself.
Isn't the wedding supposed tobe a place where we're all
(29:07):
celebrating and it should be acasual feeling, right?
And then there's the part ofthe culture that's like no, the
norms are important.
You should be your best selfand you should be uh, it's a
sign of respect well, it's theidea of etiquette, right, you?
Chris (29:24):
could have like an extreme form of etiquette where
you have 15 spoons and 15 forksthat all have different things.
But how much is too much andhow little is too little?
If we show up to a wedding inshorts, does that mean that
we're um degenerating somehow?
Angelo (29:40):
maybe it's a sign of cultural degeneration if the
society loses its norms andthings start to break apart
which brings us back to thatcivilization metaphor.
Chris (29:51):
Right, because you could be, um kicked out of the tribe,
you could be shamed out of thetribe, and now you're on your
own.
Angelo (30:04):
So crap, I had a thought and I lost it.
Well, I think a lot ofetiquette and stuff has to do
with identity.
When you say this is what we doin my culture, this is how I
was raised to practice this, youidentify with that.
Someone might say, say, I'mchinese and in china this is how
we greet each other.
That's part of who I am, that'spart of what my people do and
(30:29):
it's I think it's important to acertain extent to have some of
that, because if you are justlike what's your culture?
And you're like I don't know, Ijust do whatever I want and I
don't really identify withanything, you're kind of cutting
yourself off.
You don't have a history, youdon't have a At least, that's
(30:54):
what I think about it.
I mean, maybe there is sometruth to the notion that a lot
of that stuff is just for showand deep down, we're starting to
realize hey, it's not so muchabout the norms and the
practices.
There's more important thingsthan how you dress for a wedding
(31:21):
, right?
Chris (31:24):
Well, the outfit right is supposed to symbolize how
seriously you take a thing.
That's why you're encouraged todress up for church, right?
Angelo (31:32):
Or you know you used to be, but you notice that in
churches now, if you go tochurch, there's a lot of people
who they don't care how theydress.
They'll wear death metalhoodies to church and their
parents are like well I, it'snot like I dressed super fancy.
Matt (31:53):
I know grandma would be mad, but I'm not to tell my kid
it's interesting to the societaland cultural shame and then
your personal sense of shame,like say you have your code of
(32:19):
honor and say you're in asociety that there are different
factors that are highlyencouraging you to pull away
from your north star and fromyour code, and when you do that,
you feel you've betrayedyourself, your own code you.
You just brought up honor like Ifeel ashamed of myself because
I did this thing, because I didthis thing that pulled me away
from my own personal sense ofethics.
Angelo (32:38):
Yes, well, you mentioned honor.
Honor is almost the opposite ofshame.
Right when you're, when you're,you feel a sense of honor.
You're strongly identifyingwith your culture.
Your culture is lifting you up.
When you honor someone there,they're a beacon of of light for
(32:59):
emulation.
So maybe honor is the polaropposite of shame.
Chris (33:08):
I think you might be absolutely right about that.
And when you honor somebody,you give them a medal, you give
them an award.
When you shame somebody,everyone sees it, you don't get.
You shame somebody, everyonesees it.
You don't get anything for it,but everyone sees it right Like
you ring a bell like shame,shame.
Angelo (33:24):
Or you can shame them.
You can give them the cone ofshame and put them in the corner
.
That's right.
Matt (33:30):
You know what this brings up?
Great leadership ethic as well.
I've heard this greatleadership ethic as well.
I've heard this Honor peoplepublicly, but give them feedback
privately, or shame themprivately, because there's that
social.
Chris (33:52):
Degenerate.
Matt (33:55):
I'm not going to say this in front of Mom.
We're going to go into thecloset together.
Angelo (34:00):
I'm going to give you a piece of mama Well if you have
kids you kind of do that.
You know you don't want toscold them too hard in front of
guests, but you kind of takethem, let's go outside for a
minute, and then you're like youneed to start straightening out
young men's eyes.
Matt (34:19):
There's that social aspect of shame where it's it can be.
It's so much harder for someoneto be able to make that arc of
realization of a action they'vedone that was bad, and then
being able to go to recognition,accountability and
transformation through that,when there's so folks on like,
(34:40):
oh my god, I was ashamed and allthese people saw it.
You know, which is not thepoint Right.
Socially relevant, for sure,but not the point that's going
to help you to transform, soyour aim should be honor.
Angelo (35:00):
Which makes me think of the fourth commandment Honor
your mother and father.
What do they mean by honor?
Does that mean that there is amoral sense to which you should
honor the culture that you're apart of?
Chris (35:18):
well, we'll give glory to their good values.
Okay, right, right, yes, butthat that's a moral judgment,
that's a very personal thing.
Right, like you know, we couldtalk about the good, like my
version of good, your version ofgood, but as long as you have
that idea in mind, honor theirgood values or glorify their
(35:39):
good values.
Matt (35:40):
Ah, integrity, Like, say you're.
What's a good way to speak tothis person who you're like?
I know, I know this is how youwant to be Right, and pointing
to that, like, like, don't youwant to?
Don't you want to be someonewho's seen as responsible, as
(36:01):
you know?
Fill in the blanks, whatevergreat qualities, right?
So then it's you know it'spositive reinforcement yeah
positive reinforcement.
So then it's a connectionbetween well, these are the type
of actions that then justdemonstrate you as that type of
person that is, oh you know,because you want to have that
alignment between thought andword and action, right?
(36:25):
and you know, I remember havingthis, this conversation with, uh
, with my wife lena, one time itwas.
It was kind of this eye-openingthing of integrity.
We had this, this conversation,where it's it's like integrity
is not something that is just agiven, but it's something that's
(36:45):
an aspiration, right?
So when you think of it like,oh, you know, I don't want to be
seen as out of integrity, yeah,I'm integrity, all that type of
stuff, it's like really likeworking towards integrity is
tough right like it's.
It's a conscious effort ofrealization of how we're showing
(37:06):
up, how we're thinking, how ourwords are coming across, and
it's kind of funny too.
Angelo (37:14):
Uh, I was just talking with my daughter about when
someone offers you something.
Sometimes they offer too muchin an effort to seem like
they're very giving.
And sometimes you have torecognize that and say oh no,
I'm not going to take everythingfrom you or take advantage of
(37:36):
you, but it's strange becausethey offered it.
Oh no, I'm not going to takeeverything from you or take
advantage of you, but it'sstrange because they offered it.
And her thing is like why wouldsomeone offer something more
than they can handle?
And the only answer I couldgive is like well, some people
are like that, some peoplearen't like that, some people
(37:57):
will never offer more than whatthey are willing to give up.
And some people they'll giveeverything they have.
And you have to be like whoa,that's like, that's too much,
you don't need to give meeverything you have, you know.
But they're just very givingpeople by nature, even to their
own detriment.
And there's a sense ofintegrity there that you have to
have to recognize when someoneis giving too much and to kind
(38:19):
of turn it down Right.
And it's a hard lesson to teachkids who are just like Well, I
think you.
Chris (38:28):
It's weird, it's a weird thing that you kind of pick up
on, but I mean well, I think,when you realize that integrity
is motivated by a desire to behonorable and to have honor.
Maybe that lesson can beprocessed a little easier with
the people you have to teach itto Right.
(38:49):
Teach your daughter about whathonor is and how you attain it.
Angelo (38:56):
Easier said than done, right, um, but you, I, I just go
with you know specificsituations.
You try to say, well, in thissituation, this would be the
honorable thing to do in thissituation, this would be
dishonorable.
Then, when you try to get likea global handle on, it's a
little trickier.
It's like, well, what really ishonor?
Um, I mean, in some sense, someof that stuff is kind of made
(39:20):
up and it is weird and I don'tknow why we do these things.
But that's just how our cultureoperates and if you want people
to view you as an honorableperson, you're going to have to
play by these strange rules,even if you don't think they
make sense.
It is really.
(39:42):
It's a very human thing.
Matt (39:44):
It's a very strange thing that we do universally honorable
, and then say how important is,is it for you to relate and
integrate with this certaincircle in which these rules are
(40:06):
standing right.
So I'm I'm very proud of this.
We my family started doingthese family gatherings between
the three of us, and what we'vebeen doing has been working
towards building like a familycode, which is really cool, like
we have our values and then,you know, the values are like
these are the aspirations thatthat connect us all together,
(40:30):
that we all, you knowcollectively, have decided on
that.
We prioritize these things.
And then the code is like thisis how we uphold these values
right you know, we have sixdifferent parts to our code and
then we have five uh five valuesthat we agreed upon and the
(40:52):
honor code.
Yeah well and well honoring isone of them too.
Angelo (40:57):
It's one of, it's one of the values so very I dig that,
yeah, I'm very proud of that solet me in on your code, man I
don't know.
Matt (41:13):
So let me see, remember we have, we have honoring, we have
, we have fun, we have selfaccountability.
We have other five, yeah, thereare five different, different
values there.
Oh, integrity.
(41:33):
Integrity is one of them.
And then, what's so?
What do you?
What's the difference betweenhonor and integrity in your
system?
Well, honoring is caring forthings that are important to you
.
Angelo (41:49):
Okay.
Matt (41:51):
Right, and honoring someone else, pointing to the
good within someone else andpointing to the good within
someone else, and pointing tothe good within, uh, within
yourself, and integrity is aconnection between the thought,
word and action.
Okay, so yeah, you can.
You can also honor thatintegrity and honoring yourself
(42:11):
by staying in integrity, right?
So here's another example, oneof them we prioritize being
healthy and so honoring the mind, the body and the spirit, so
doing justice to the good ofthose things, wow.
Angelo (42:33):
That's funny.
That's what I like to do duringLent.
I try to pick three practicesOne for the body, one for the
mind and one for the spirit towork on myself.
Keep my body healthy, keep mymind healthy, keep my spirit
healthy.
Matt (42:49):
That's awesome.
Angelo (42:50):
Yeah, well, it's good that you put that into practice
with your family.
Matt (42:54):
Yeah, practice with your family, yeah, and is there two
that that helena put forth to usas parts of the code, which
really speak to two kind ofprofound poles and that I think
are summed up in one statementbut are better parsed out into
two statements, right?
And one is remembering thedivinity, our divine connection
(43:20):
within us, and that we're a, youknow, a spark we are each
sparks of the divine.
And then the second part isreally accepting and this speaks
to the shame thing, right, andthe antidote to it, I would say,
is accepting the, you know, themessiness of being human and
the imperfections that comealong with that.
(43:43):
It's in the rejection of that,that's where the shame comes in,
right yeah, you're accepting itwhen you're, you know, loving
yourself as you are, and youdon't, you know, there's always
growth.
There's always like, yeah, youcan, yeah, you can definitely
grow.
And that's another place whereI think these wires have gotten
(44:05):
crossed with us.
Is that, oh, how to say it?
like it's really hard, if youhave a lot of internalization of
shame, to then look forward togrowth because, the message that
you hear is there's somethingwrong with me, right, and that
(44:26):
growth is somehow trying to fixsomething that's wrong with you,
which is the interpretation,but that's not the truth.
And again it's not the pointright, but it's the shame, truth
.
And again it's not the point,right, but it's the shame that
gets in the way of that growth.
Angelo (44:42):
I think it's tricky because a lot of times you
identify with something and whenyou have to cut that thing out,
you feel like there's somethingwrong with me because I
identify with this part of me.
So like, for instance, maybethere's a person with anger
(45:02):
issues and they say I am aperson who's quick to anger
anger.
And then if someone's like well, you need to fix your approach
to these, um issues withoutjumping into anger so quickly,
sometimes those people are likeI'm an angry person, I can't fix
(45:24):
that.
You're trying to say that thatI need to be a completely
different person, but this is me, like you know, and so there's
like a, an identificationbarrier there a lot of times and
I think that's uh, that's thetricky thing.
Um, maybe the solution is to isto really recognize that, uh,
(45:53):
in order to grow and change, youcan't always identify with some
of the lower aspects ofyourself.
You have to recognize thatthere are parts of yourself that
need to die in order for you togrow.
Chris (46:08):
Wow, yeah, it kind of reminds me of a lyric from one
of my favorite songs, which isnot to undermine the consequence
of your actions, but you arenot what you do.
So if you are, if you haveanger right, you don't need to
(46:28):
be defined by that.
Angelo (46:31):
Right, Right or even something mentally like if I
identify with my career or myjob and then I lose my job, I'm
going to feel, my self-worth isgoing to take a hit.
Matt (46:53):
I'm going to feel my self-worth is going to take a
hit.
I'm going to feel crushed.
I want to speak to somethingyou just said, too about say if
you are an angry person and weknow anger can be destructive it
can also be a force within you.
Angelo (47:07):
Defensive.
Matt (47:08):
Defensive Say you could feel shame from people always
calling you.
Oh, you're an angry person.
Oh you, you know flipping outor whatever Like.
But there can be a gift on theother side of that.
That's a passion, right?
But you've so identified withthis story that other people
(47:29):
have told you that you, thatgift, has been invisible to you
I think, it turned to the otherside of that that quote where
that's actually a strength, Ithink we've talked about this
before.
Angelo (47:42):
We're like certain emotions, um, they have
functions and and they can bemisplaced right and so anger
it's a beautiful thing when inits rightful place.
It is a.
You should be passionate aboutcertain things.
You should be passionate aboutyour children and when something
comes and threatens them, youshould step up and be angry and
defend them.
(48:02):
You know, even uh christ in inthe story where he he goes into
his father's house and he'sturning over tables, that was
like righteous anger exactly.
Chris (48:13):
There is such a thing as just anger.
Angelo (48:17):
Sorry, I cut you off no, no, I was pretty much done, but
yeah, I think that even appliesto shame.
There is a righteous sense ofshame, yes, and there's a
applies to shame.
Chris (48:32):
There is a righteous sense of shame?
Angelo (48:36):
Yes, and there's a misplaced shame.
You can feel shame in thingsthat you shouldn't be ashamed
about.
Maybe think about someone whothey have a deformity.
Maybe they've got some sort ofsomething that everyone can see
(48:58):
and they've got a facialdeformity and maybe as a child
they got made fun of for it andso now they go out and they feel
this sense of shame in showingtheir face.
Or you know, what you see?
A lot more commonly is peoplehiding their smile, like some
people just hate to smile withtheir teeth.
They're just like so.
(49:19):
Maybe that someone at somepoint in their life said they
looked ugly when they smile, ortold them not to smile like that
, or laughed at them and saidtheir smile looked funny and
ever since then they just don'tlike to really smile and you'll
see them in photos.
Like you know, they're neverreally smiling unless you catch
(49:43):
them off guard and it's agenuine candid moment.
It's the only time they reallysmile.
But, um, I think that'sactually pretty common if you
think about it.
There's a lot of people whohide their smile, but they, I
would say that's a misplacedsense of shame, because a smile
is such a beautiful outwardlyexpression.
You should never be ashamed ofyour expression of joy that's.
Matt (50:07):
that's a very personal thing too.
There are things that a personcan feel ashamed of, that you
can say, oh, if I just did this,then it would be a different
thing.
But your smile, your face,things like that, where it's
like that's a tough one, whereyou can say you know, I feel
ashamed about this and I alsocan't change this.
(50:29):
Right, this is actuallysomething that is just a part of
who I am and just a part ofreality, right okay.
Chris (50:39):
So don't be ashamed of your smile, unless maybe you're
burning down your neighbor'shouse.
You probably shouldn't smile.
Angelo (50:46):
Oh, there you go so well , it's not.
It's not because your smilelooks ugly, like you shouldn't
be ashamed of.
Because your smile looks ugly,you shouldn't be ashamed of how
your smile looks.
You should be ashamed that youwould take joy in something so
ugly.
Chris (51:01):
And that's righteous shaming, right, right.
How dare you burn yourneighbor's house down?
Stop smiling.
Angelo (51:08):
Yeah, that reminds me.
Recently there was a story of awoman who, uh, it's such an
ugly story but she she stabbed ayoung child, uh, randomly, like
she went out and stabbed uh, Ithink it was a three-year-old,
right in front of her mother.
Oh my god.
And when they were put her ontrial and were talking to her
(51:30):
about it in court, she wassmiling and it was like such an
ugly um thing and just thecomments on the video of her
smiling, just everyone was justoverwhelmed with this sense of
like this.
This woman doesn't deserve eventhe life sentence.
(51:51):
Like this, this person shouldjust be blotted out from society
eliminated yeah for, for how?
yeah it's.
Matt (52:02):
It's such an ugly thing to think about, because it's an
ugly display, yeah, that someonewould take joy, so much joy in
another's genuine suffering well, if you think about, if the
sense of pleasure is theinversion of feeling, say a
righteous sense of shame from anact like that, right, like you
(52:25):
did something so horrendous andyou know it, like in the back of
your mind.
You know it, you know what waswrong and if you're really feel
that, then that would be such anoverwhelming sense of shame and
guilt that you're like, wow,what do I do with all that
negative emotion?
Right, and not to defend, butshe said I always try and
(52:47):
understand why people do thethings that they do, right hmm,
so then.
So then, the feeling ofpleasure can be a mask oh where
that negative emotion would be.
Angelo (53:01):
Maybe there's a, there's a.
There's a power display there.
Like you can't control me, youcan't make me feel guilty for
doing this thing, right?
Like, even if you sentence meto life in prison or the
electric chair or anything, I'mstill going to smile because I
win if I'm smiling.
(53:23):
Yeah, which is not true in theslightest.
But it's got to be somethingstrange going on there.
Matt (53:33):
Yeah.
Angelo (53:34):
There should be a sense of shame.
That would be righteous shameor really righteous guilt.
If you did something like that,you would want to see that
person feeling remorse and youstill might think, hey, that
remorse doesn't change much.
Chris (53:52):
But oh man, a smile is definitely misplaced in that
situation well if, if the smilein that situation is a display
of evil, remorse would be adisplay of good right right you
should be remorseful for fordoing something wrong exactly,
yeah hmm, you know what Ihonestly think?
Angelo (54:22):
this is probably a good place to wrap it up okay but
thanks guys for chatting with meon shame and thank all of you
for taking the time to listenwith us to the end of this
podcast.
If you made it this far, wereally appreciate it.
Um, if you can help us out,like share, subscribe to our
(54:45):
content and if, uh, if you willit, uh, come back next time and
hang out with us again thankspeace.
Hello everyone, welcome to the Telos Initiative podcast.
I'm Angelo Cole, I'm ChrisVigil.
Matt (00:09):
And I'm Matt Maes.
Angelo (00:10):
Today, our topic is going to be shame, so I guess
the first thing, what we alwaysdo, is try to define what it is
we're talking about.
Shame is a little bit of atricky one, because a lot of
people confuse shame with guilt,so I think it would be good to
(00:35):
try and differentiate the two.
Shame, I would say, issomething more akin to breaking
a cultural boundary, while guiltis more breaking a moral
boundary and feeling wrong aboutthat.
(00:55):
So I feel guilty when I dosomething I consider immoral,
but I feel shame when I dosomething embarrassing you can
be found guilty in a court oflaw, but you can't be found
shameful, true?
Matt (01:16):
oh, and that's that is interesting.
When someone says we'lldescribe something as as
shameless, like how could you?
You know, how could you do that?
Angelo (01:25):
That's true because the way we use it is somewhat
associated with guilt, so it'snot.
Maybe breaking moral boundariesalso is associated with
cultural boundaries as well.
Or maybe when you say shame onyou when you're doing something
(01:46):
wrong, there's a guilt thingthere.
Matt (01:50):
Well, and it's important to identify distinction between
like when you do something badversus like when you feel I am
bad, which seems to me is thedistinction between shame and
guilt right, say you've donesomething that is morally wrong
(02:10):
and you feel bad about it.
Say you, you know, tooksomething from someone else that
they needed just for your, yourown sustenance or your own gain
, and that person is kind ofleft out in the wind.
You're like, wow, I feel guiltyabout that?
you did a bad thing, then it'sthe identification with that
that you, you.
(02:31):
Those two things, shame andguilt are so close together that
we have to be really consciousabout not carrying that
identification with us.
Angelo (02:43):
Here's a question Do you feel shame on a remote island,
or is shame necessarily part ofa communal thing?
Like shame is related to yourfeeling about how others are
judging you.
Matt (02:58):
I think that can depend on if you really integrate that
feeling of shame or internalizeI should say, not integrate.
When you really identify withthat feeling of shame, you see
you're like, oh, there's nobodyout here on this island and you
know you're comparing yourselfto someone who may be living a
(03:21):
quote normal life.
You say I don't have any money.
I don't have any money, I don'thave any friends, all that type
of stuff.
Angelo (03:27):
You can feel ashamed about that or perhaps you're not
living up to your potential andyou're ashamed that you're.
You're not doing something likemaybe I'm still thinking on the
remote island scenario likemaybe you're trying to catch
some food for yourself andyou're just so incompetent at
(03:47):
throwing spearfishing orsomething that you're ashamed
that you couldn't do it properly.
Chris (03:56):
I don't know well, on a remote island, right, you
probably have to kill an animalto eat something, right?
Are you gonna feel guilty aboutthat?
You might feel guilty, but youmight not feel shamed, true?
Angelo (04:10):
when I think of shame, I think of nakedness, like I
would feel ashamed orembarrassed to be it's.
It's a vulnerability yeah.
Chris (04:24):
So if I'm, if I'm breaking a moral or cultural
code, let me think about that,hang on.
So if I'm breaking a culturalor moral code, that's like in
some sense like who I am, like.
(04:45):
I should identify with thatsomehow and that's where my
shame's coming from, because I'massociated with that bad thing.
That's like a vulnerability formyself.
Okay, does that make sense?
Angelo (05:00):
sure, maybe you can feel ashamed in relation to yourself
, right, it's a self-perceptionsort of thing.
But I almost feel like you geta lot of that from your culture.
Yeah, you're trying to live upto cultural standards, even when
you're alone at some point.
Absolutely, children don'treally have shame, right.
(05:23):
It's kind of taught, you learnto be ashamed of certain things.
Kids run around naked with noshame whatsoever.
They eat whatever, they'll eatdisgusting things or they'll say
things to people that are rudeor or mean, or it can be very
(05:49):
blunt, but they just don't havethat understanding of cultural
norms.
So I would say the child isshameless, but not in like the
negative connotation that youmentioned earlier.
Matt (06:01):
Yeah Well, it's like you're running around and
discovering where, where, allthe boundaries to certain things
are right right like say youknow I do this, oh, you know
mama got angry or papa got angry, or you know this type of thing
happened.
You know this thing broke, thisimportant thing broke and you
discover this distinctionbetween yourself and the world,
(06:25):
which it's interesting thinkingabout, that, that immediate
connection that you feel as achild, as a newborn, like oh,
(06:51):
there's this thing called lifethat seems to be around me and
that I have to work with it andbump my head against certain
things.
And it's interesting.
When you talk about thenakedness, I actually think
about the first story in theBible, right, where you have the
tree of the knowledge of goodand evil.
You have the apple, the tree ofthe knowledge of good and evil.
We have the apple and you knowwe as the story as we know it,
like eve takes the apple, bitesof the apple and then she and
(07:13):
adam become aware of their naked.
Now this is interestingpsychologically to me, like yes,
they took the apple and, yes,they bit the apple, but their
response when God looks down andsays, oh, oh, where are you?
And they're ashamed of theirnakedness.
Chris (07:32):
And then they point the finger.
Matt (07:34):
Right.
And so what do they do?
What do they do out of theshame, like, oh, you know, you
want to hide or you want to.
Angelo (07:41):
It wasn't me.
It was her oh it wasn't me, itwas, it was her.
Matt (07:46):
Oh, it wasn't me, it was a snake all these, all this
domino effect of differentproblems that arise out of that
shame, like, say they knew theywere naked and god's like, oh,
where are you?
It's like, oh yeah, we're naked, we're here, but they were
honest about it.
Would that have been adifferent result than that story
?
I think it may have it's tough.
Angelo (08:08):
It's tough to own up to your iniquities.
Um, yeah, I think when youraise kids you notice that a lot
in small children, like whenthey know they've done something
wrong, their instinct is topush the blame immediately.
(08:28):
It's like oh, it wasn't me, itwas, or it's not really my fault
.
This is why I did this, youknow, and I almost think growing
out of that pattern and andlearning to take ownership for
your mistakes is a sign ofmaturity.
Oh, it is, but it has to dealwith a lot with shame, because
(08:49):
shame's almost there to push youto, uh, to recognize your,
recognize your place in society.
Perhaps that's it's sort offunction, right?
Matt (09:05):
It's the, it's the awareness, but then not getting
stuck there, which can be adifficult distinction, because
you need to be able to have thathope that separates the shame
from the guilt.
By that I mean the shame beingthe identification with being
bad.
(09:26):
Whereas guilt is I did this badthing, which you can take
responsibility andaccountability for doing
whatever that bad thing was, andsaying how can I take a
different action in the futureto produce a different result,
(09:46):
to take a different action inthe future to produce a
different result.
So then you can take that badthing that you did and make it
so that that's not going tohappen in the future, because
you've been able to integratethe lesson from what you did,
which is much harder to do fromshame than it is from simply
recognizing, with guilt, likeyou can take you know it's like
(10:07):
it's like guilt is like a doseof shame that you're able to,
that you can be able to processand then go like oh, oh, snap,
that hurt.
I don't want to do that again.
I don't want to.
Chris (10:19):
You know, I don't want to be that way, right and being
able to transform out of that soif guilt is like a dose of
shame, I mean, do we think?
I mean, I think it kind of begsthe question are we going to
take responsibility for ouractions if we don't feel any
(10:40):
shame at all?
I mean, do you have to have alittle bit of shame, a little
bit of guilt If I'm on thatisland and I kill that animal?
Is it a good thing that I feela twinge of like oh, I'm sorry.
Angelo (10:50):
Yeah, I think you're right.
That's probably why it's.
A little bit of shame ishealthy for a person, maybe a
sociopath or someone who doesn'treally care about their
relation to others and feels noshame when they do things.
They're like so what, I didthis thing?
What's wrong with that?
(11:12):
I would assume I'm not like apsychologist or anything, so I
don't know if sociopaths don'tfeel shame, but I would think
that if you're, if sociopathsdon't feel shame but, um, I
would think that if you're, I, I, I associate shame with, like a
connection to uh, culturalnorms.
(11:34):
So I think if you've gotsomething, some sort of uh
dysfunction in the way that youconnect with other people, that
there it.
That probably feeds intowhether or not you feel shame.
But I mean, I'm not sure.
Matt (11:51):
Yeah, if that's true, well , it makes sense, right.
Well, here's another side ofthe coin, too is I love the
distinction that you madebetween the like, the cultural
say faux pas with, versus guiltis like a moral thing, a moral,
you know, failing of some kind,right, so that that's more
(12:14):
universal, that's more somethingthat is, or should be, like,
baked into us a sense of rightand wrong and honor, and, you
know, good, you know promotionof well-being versus laws that
are man-made right things thatwe've kind of invented for one
(12:34):
reason or another, but thatdoesn't mean that they are
universally.
I mean that there's such thingas having unfounded,
illegitimate rules, right, likewhy do we do all these different
things?
Like, why do we actually havethese different norms?
Is this universally substantial?
(12:56):
Is there any like sovereignthing about these, about all
these rules that I'm supposed tobe following, that if I'm not,
then I'm out of step somehow.
Chris (13:07):
Sure.
Matt (13:07):
It's good to question those things too.
Are these rules actually valid?
Angelo (13:15):
I would say there's probably levels, right.
There are things that areclearly localized to certain
regions, certain cultures orcertain areas.
Localized to certain regions,certain cultures or certain
areas.
You know, it's rude in ourculture to stick up the middle
finger and flip someone off, butthat might mean something
completely different in anotherculture and someone, someone who
(13:37):
doesn't understand that anduses the middle finger or gets
tricked into it by a mischievousAmerican, that person we would
kind of Mischievous American.
Matt (13:52):
I mean think about it.
Angelo (13:54):
You might trick a If you knew.
Someone didn't know what themiddle finger meant you might
like Egg egg.
Matt (14:00):
lift the middle finger.
Angelo (14:01):
Just say hi.
This is how we say hi.
Just say hi to that group ofbikers over there.
So someone who doesn'tunderstand the cultural norm,
they're not going to seeanything wrong with something
like that.
And then even across time, youknow that it might change.
Maybe in the distant future themiddle finger will mean
(14:23):
something completely different.
Maybe in the distant future themiddle finger will mean
something completely differentand they'll look back in time
and see stuff happening in ourmovies and be like what are they
trying to say with this symbol?
Matt (14:36):
It's an interesting thing to think about.
It's a sign for peace.
Angelo (14:40):
Yeah, peace among worlds right.
Yeah, we among worlds rightyeah, become a peace, but I
forget where I was going withthat.
But I think, well, there'slevels, right, you can
definitely localize some norms,but even within your local
(15:03):
community, breaking those normsmight come with a sense of shame
so it's.
Chris (15:11):
It's illegal to kill anyone in cold blood across the
world.
I would imagine, right likethat's codified in into law.
Um, it is not illegal to hailhitler someone across the world,
but it is illegal in Germany,okay.
Matt (15:29):
That's illegal in Germany.
Chris (15:30):
It is straight up illegal in Germany.
Angelo (15:34):
And if you did that in America, it's not necessarily
illegal, but people woulddefinitely shame you for doing
it Right.
So, because of how atrociouswell, that definitely is tied
into something moral because ofthe atrocities that Hitler
(15:55):
committed, you're associatingyourself and praising a man who
did something so morally wrongthat even uh, even using that
hand symbol is is associatedwith.
Matt (16:11):
Yeah, he ruined that mustache for everyone charlie
chaplin and that that used to bea very popular mustache in
germany too.
Angelo (16:22):
And then right, it's like I've kind of ruined it for
everybody who wants to have thatmustache, yeah it's like people
try to say, well, charlieChaplin yeah, it's like.
I don't know, man, you'repushing the limit with that one
yeah, hitler is more famous thanCharlie Chaplin, unfortunately.
No, yeah for sure.
Matt (16:47):
Also, I think it's rare, I think, for a man to be able to
pull off just a mustache.
I mean, if you can rock amustache then good for you.
But generally, just try out abeard, try out a full set, see
how you feel.
Angelo (17:09):
Mussolini no, that's a stalling beard he's trying to
take the pot and go like this.
Matt (17:22):
He's trying to stir that pot.
I have no shame.
You're full of puns today,angelo.
He's trying to take the pot andgo like this, stirring it.
Angelo (17:24):
He's trying to stir that pot.
I have no shame.
You're full of puns today,angelo, yeah, but I guess maybe
I was trying to think of.
I was trying to think of maybesomething that would be
(17:46):
universally shameful, but notnecessarily universe like, not
necessarily associated withguilt, and I don't know if I, if
I can think of anything.
So maybe, maybe shame is sortof localized, in the general
sense it's, it's subjective toeach and every culture or or
(18:10):
region.
Matt (18:10):
It could be Well, I think you nailed it with uh, with the
nakedness.
Chris (18:16):
Yeah, that's the first thing that comes to my mind.
Matt (18:18):
The awareness, of the awareness of nakedness.
There's the story about liesand truth and them as two women
hurt going through this town andthey're traipsing along and
then they get to.
They get to this spring andthey both get naked and they get
(18:41):
in right, but then it's abouttime to get out and lies.
The woman takes both of theirclothes and runs off, and so
truth is left naked and she'srunning around trying to get her
clothes back.
But everybody's like, you know,like that because they didn't
want to see the naked truth.
Angelo (19:03):
Oh, that's clever.
Matt (19:08):
Yeah.
Angelo (19:09):
I can't believe I didn't see where you were going with
that yeah.
But you know there are tribeswhere people are way more naked
than what we would considerculturally appropriate.
Chris (19:25):
And and for them it's normal because they don't feel
any kind of way about it yeaheven, even uh nakedness has its
its cultural limitations yeah,and the next example I thought
of after that was just goingright back to like animal
(19:45):
killing right, but tribal peoplethey hunt, but we don't we kind
of send them into these weirdfactories and and butcher them
that way.
You know, maybe we should beashamed of that, somehow, like
we're not dealing with our owndeath in a way yeah well, we
outsource our, our sourcing, ourhunting, we outsource it.
Angelo (20:10):
So we don't even have to look at the reality of it.
We just go to the grocery storeand is there anything shameful
about that?
Chris (20:21):
like I sometimes I feel like I'm not taking
responsibility for.
I used to think this way whenin college like I'm not taking
responsibility for.
I used to think this way whenin college, like I'm not taking
responsibility for my life ifI'm not somehow involved in the
killing of this own animal I'mabout to eat, I think it has to
do with a degree of intention,like I wouldn't feel shameful
(20:42):
going to a different country andnot understanding their norms
and making a mistake.
Angelo (20:48):
I wouldn't call that shame.
I might be like slightlyembarrassed if they're all kind
of laughing and I'm like, oh, Imessed it up, but I would think
that they have a degree ofunderstanding that hey, I'm not
from here, there's no shame inthat, and so there's some
intention thing associated withit.
When it comes to outsourcing thehunting to slaughterhouses and
(21:14):
things like that, to what degreedo we really have control over
what we eat?
It's very challenging to sourceyour own food.
Even if you're very consciousabout oh, I, I'm a vegan and I
don't want to eat animalproducts like you're gonna
really have to go out of yourway to make that lifestyle work
(21:37):
because that stuff is just soeverywhere and virtually easy
access.
So if it depends on the degreeto which you're you're willing
to, um, take up that cause andsome people do take it very
seriously some people think thatthere are other, bigger
(21:57):
problems and they're like Idon't have the time and energy
to really source my own food tothat level, I am just going to
have to deal with what societyhas laid out for me.
Chris (22:12):
Yeah.
Angelo (22:13):
And so, personally, I don't feel any guilt or shame in
buying meats from the grocerystore.
I didn't build the system.
Chris (22:22):
Right, and that's a societal value right I didn't
build the system right andthat's a societal value right,
and so that's why you would feelthat certain degree of shame
from that societal value if Ihad a greater degree of control.
Angelo (22:32):
If someone was like here , you need to uh, kill your
animals from now on.
Um, well, still, I don't really.
I think if it's for feeding myfamily and, uh, nutrients and
things like that, I don't really.
I think if it's for feeding myfamily and nutrients and things
like that, I don't consider thatimmoral personally, but I'm not
going to go around shootinganimals for fun or trying to
(22:56):
hunt down endangered species orthings like that.
That's where it starts toventure into a bit of immorality
for me.
Chris (23:04):
Right.
And then we start getting intothe topic of guilt.
From there, I think, sure Right.
I would feel guilty if I killthe bald eagle because, well,
it's not even necessarily thatyou would feel guilty, but you
would be guilty of killing theseanimals and be guilty of acting
(23:25):
like a psychopath sure?
Angelo (23:29):
well, I mean guilt in the legal sense, yes, but I
guess you can use the word guiltjust as a feeling, too right?
I can feel guilty even if I'mnot legally guilty, right?
Chris (23:44):
Yeah, yeah, there are two qualities to guilt right, you
can be guilty and you can feelguilty, but shame you can only
feel, shame, you can't.
You could be shamed by othersand maybe you could feel
shameful, I guess, but I don'tknow if there's a like, a being
of of shame so maybe shamegenerally is always subjective,
(24:10):
at least in a cultural sense,unless you consider guilt a form
of shame.
Okay, yeah, I could buy that,maybe, maybe, maybe.
Matt (24:24):
Like if we say shame is the larger thing, that guilt is
then contained within.
Angelo (24:30):
Right, then we're talking about morals and it
depends on your if you thinkmorals are objective or
subjective.
But if you think guilt andshame are two separate things
and shame is always associatedwith cultural embarrassment,
then I don't think anybody woulddisagree that that's always
(24:54):
localized.
I can't think of a universalexample of shame well, we go
back.
Matt (25:02):
This goes back to like social implications too, like
archaic, like socialimplications.
Like when you were in a in atribe and say you did something
that so went against like theorder of the tribe, right, and
that actually caused problemswithin that and they deemed that
you had to be kicked out, right, like you're ostracized, you're
(25:23):
banished from the tribe andthen you have to go and fend for
yourself.
So that has a lot of tangibleimplications.
Like back then, if you got cutoff from the tribe, you were
cast out into danger.
You didn't know if you're goingto be eaten by a saber-toothed
tiger or just you would have amuch more difficult time finding
(25:44):
the resources that you need andthe social connections that you
need.
Now you can be cut off from atribe today in all sorts of
different ways.
We have interests based on ourvalues or our interests and you
know you can form up into clicks, right, and if you're cut off
from that click, then it's likeoh, you know, where else am I
(26:05):
going to go?
Is cut off from these people.
But the difference from backthen is we have so much more
latitude of movement andabundance of resources around us
than we did back then, like ifyou get cut off, now you can
find, you can find another tribemuch more easily than you could
(26:30):
back then.
There are tribes all over theplace, right, and it even
benefits you to have a diversityof different tribes.
I would say too, say you couldhave this pond of friends over
here, this pond of friends overhere and over here, and you can
even overlap them.
(26:50):
You can introduce peoplebetween those different circles
of friends that you have, thoseyou know different circles of
friends that you have, and youcan broaden yourself in terms of
the ways that you're able toconceive the world around you
too.
Yeah, you know so if you cantake that little little dose of
say uh, you know, I was withthese people over here.
(27:12):
I didn't really fit in, youknow, instead of internalizing
that shame, you can go hey, youknow what, like there's, there's
a lot more abundance aroundthan if I'm just focusing on
being rejected or cut off fromthis person or this group or any
(27:33):
of that type of stuff there issomething to be said for.
Angelo (27:37):
Maybe shame can be misplaced, like maybe there's a
sense in which you can feelashamed about something, but you
shouldn't be.
And I think we see a lot ofthat underlying critique in our
current culture where people aresaying, hey, some of these
(27:57):
things are societal norms, butthey shouldn't be.
We shouldn't be feeling ashamedfor being this way or doing
this thing.
It's just.
You'll hear people say thingslike it's just made up, it's
just man made.
Why do we have to abide by anyof this cultural norms?
(28:21):
And so that does bring intoquestion like what is the, what
is the utility of havingcultural normativity right?
Like why do we?
Why, why do we have to dress acertain way for certain rituals?
Like you know, why is itshameful to go to a wedding in
(28:45):
casual clothing?
Or is it shameful anymore?
Like, I would say, modernweddings?
There's probably a lot ofweddings where people just dress
how they always dress and theydon't care and they're just like
what's wrong with?
me being myself.
Isn't the wedding supposed tobe a place where we're all
(29:07):
celebrating and it should be acasual feeling, right?
And then there's the part ofthe culture that's like no, the
norms are important.
You should be your best selfand you should be uh, it's a
sign of respect well, it's theidea of etiquette, right, you?
Chris (29:24):
could have like an extreme form of etiquette where
you have 15 spoons and 15 forksthat all have different things.
But how much is too much andhow little is too little?
If we show up to a wedding inshorts, does that mean that
we're um degenerating somehow?
Angelo (29:40):
maybe it's a sign of cultural degeneration if the
society loses its norms andthings start to break apart
which brings us back to thatcivilization metaphor.
Chris (29:51):
Right, because you could be, um kicked out of the tribe,
you could be shamed out of thetribe, and now you're on your
own.
Angelo (30:04):
So crap, I had a thought and I lost it.
Well, I think a lot ofetiquette and stuff has to do
with identity.
When you say this is what we doin my culture, this is how I
was raised to practice this, youidentify with that.
Someone might say, say, I'mchinese and in china this is how
we greet each other.
That's part of who I am, that'spart of what my people do and
(30:29):
it's I think it's important to acertain extent to have some of
that, because if you are justlike what's your culture?
And you're like I don't know, Ijust do whatever I want and I
don't really identify withanything, you're kind of cutting
yourself off.
You don't have a history, youdon't have a At least, that's
(30:54):
what I think about it.
I mean, maybe there is sometruth to the notion that a lot
of that stuff is just for showand deep down, we're starting to
realize hey, it's not so muchabout the norms and the
practices.
There's more important thingsthan how you dress for a wedding
(31:21):
, right?
Chris (31:24):
Well, the outfit right is supposed to symbolize how
seriously you take a thing.
That's why you're encouraged todress up for church, right?
Angelo (31:32):
Or you know you used to be, but you notice that in
churches now, if you go tochurch, there's a lot of people
who they don't care how theydress.
They'll wear death metalhoodies to church and their
parents are like well I, it'snot like I dressed super fancy.
Matt (31:53):
I know grandma would be mad, but I'm not to tell my kid
it's interesting to the societaland cultural shame and then
your personal sense of shame,like say you have your code of
(32:19):
honor and say you're in asociety that there are different
factors that are highlyencouraging you to pull away
from your north star and fromyour code, and when you do that,
you feel you've betrayedyourself, your own code you.
You just brought up honor like Ifeel ashamed of myself because
I did this thing, because I didthis thing that pulled me away
from my own personal sense ofethics.
Angelo (32:38):
Yes, well, you mentioned honor.
Honor is almost the opposite ofshame.
Right when you're, when you're,you feel a sense of honor.
You're strongly identifyingwith your culture.
Your culture is lifting you up.
When you honor someone there,they're a beacon of of light for
(32:59):
emulation.
So maybe honor is the polaropposite of shame.
Chris (33:08):
I think you might be absolutely right about that.
And when you honor somebody,you give them a medal, you give
them an award.
When you shame somebody,everyone sees it, you don't get.
You shame somebody, everyonesees it.
You don't get anything for it,but everyone sees it right Like
you ring a bell like shame,shame.
Angelo (33:24):
Or you can shame them.
You can give them the cone ofshame and put them in the corner
.
That's right.
Matt (33:30):
You know what this brings up?
Great leadership ethic as well.
I've heard this greatleadership ethic as well.
I've heard this Honor peoplepublicly, but give them feedback
privately, or shame themprivately, because there's that
social.
Chris (33:52):
Degenerate.
Matt (33:55):
I'm not going to say this in front of Mom.
We're going to go into thecloset together.
Angelo (34:00):
I'm going to give you a piece of mama Well if you have
kids you kind of do that.
You know you don't want toscold them too hard in front of
guests, but you kind of takethem, let's go outside for a
minute, and then you're like youneed to start straightening out
young men's eyes.
Matt (34:19):
There's that social aspect of shame where it's it can be.
It's so much harder for someoneto be able to make that arc of
realization of a action they'vedone that was bad, and then
being able to go to recognition,accountability and
transformation through that,when there's so folks on like,
(34:40):
oh my god, I was ashamed and allthese people saw it.
You know, which is not thepoint Right.
Socially relevant, for sure,but not the point that's going
to help you to transform, soyour aim should be honor.
Angelo (35:00):
Which makes me think of the fourth commandment Honor
your mother and father.
What do they mean by honor?
Does that mean that there is amoral sense to which you should
honor the culture that you're apart of?
Chris (35:18):
well, we'll give glory to their good values.
Okay, right, right, yes, butthat that's a moral judgment,
that's a very personal thing.
Right, like you know, we couldtalk about the good, like my
version of good, your version ofgood, but as long as you have
that idea in mind, honor theirgood values or glorify their
(35:39):
good values.
Matt (35:40):
Ah, integrity, Like, say you're.
What's a good way to speak tothis person who you're like?
I know, I know this is how youwant to be Right, and pointing
to that, like, like, don't youwant to?
Don't you want to be someonewho's seen as responsible, as
(36:01):
you know?
Fill in the blanks, whatevergreat qualities, right?
So then it's you know it'spositive reinforcement yeah
positive reinforcement.
So then it's a connectionbetween well, these are the type
of actions that then justdemonstrate you as that type of
person that is, oh you know,because you want to have that
alignment between thought andword and action, right?
(36:25):
and you know, I remember havingthis, this conversation with, uh
, with my wife lena, one time itwas.
It was kind of this eye-openingthing of integrity.
We had this, this conversation,where it's it's like integrity
is not something that is just agiven, but it's something that's
(36:45):
an aspiration, right?
So when you think of it like,oh, you know, I don't want to be
seen as out of integrity, yeah,I'm integrity, all that type of
stuff, it's like really likeworking towards integrity is
tough right like it's.
It's a conscious effort ofrealization of how we're showing
(37:06):
up, how we're thinking, how ourwords are coming across, and
it's kind of funny too.
Angelo (37:14):
Uh, I was just talking with my daughter about when
someone offers you something.
Sometimes they offer too muchin an effort to seem like
they're very giving.
And sometimes you have torecognize that and say oh no,
I'm not going to take everythingfrom you or take advantage of
(37:36):
you, but it's strange becausethey offered it.
Oh no, I'm not going to takeeverything from you or take
advantage of you, but it'sstrange because they offered it.
And her thing is like why wouldsomeone offer something more
than they can handle?
And the only answer I couldgive is like well, some people
are like that, some peoplearen't like that, some people
(37:57):
will never offer more than whatthey are willing to give up.
And some people they'll giveeverything they have.
And you have to be like whoa,that's like, that's too much,
you don't need to give meeverything you have, you know.
But they're just very givingpeople by nature, even to their
own detriment.
And there's a sense ofintegrity there that you have to
have to recognize when someoneis giving too much and to kind
(38:19):
of turn it down Right.
And it's a hard lesson to teachkids who are just like Well, I
think you.
Chris (38:28):
It's weird, it's a weird thing that you kind of pick up
on, but I mean well, I think,when you realize that integrity
is motivated by a desire to behonorable and to have honor.
Maybe that lesson can beprocessed a little easier with
the people you have to teach itto Right.
(38:49):
Teach your daughter about whathonor is and how you attain it.
Angelo (38:56):
Easier said than done, right, um, but you, I, I just go
with you know specificsituations.
You try to say, well, in thissituation, this would be the
honorable thing to do in thissituation, this would be
dishonorable.
Then, when you try to get likea global handle on, it's a
little trickier.
It's like, well, what really ishonor?
Um, I mean, in some sense, someof that stuff is kind of made
(39:20):
up and it is weird and I don'tknow why we do these things.
But that's just how our cultureoperates and if you want people
to view you as an honorableperson, you're going to have to
play by these strange rules,even if you don't think they
make sense.
It is really.
(39:42):
It's a very human thing.
Matt (39:44):
It's a very strange thing that we do universally honorable
, and then say how important is,is it for you to relate and
integrate with this certaincircle in which these rules are
(40:06):
standing right.
So I'm I'm very proud of this.
We my family started doingthese family gatherings between
the three of us, and what we'vebeen doing has been working
towards building like a familycode, which is really cool, like
we have our values and then,you know, the values are like
these are the aspirations thatthat connect us all together,
(40:30):
that we all, you knowcollectively, have decided on
that.
We prioritize these things.
And then the code is like thisis how we uphold these values
right you know, we have sixdifferent parts to our code and
then we have five uh five valuesthat we agreed upon and the
(40:52):
honor code.
Yeah well and well honoring isone of them too.
Angelo (40:57):
It's one of, it's one of the values so very I dig that,
yeah, I'm very proud of that solet me in on your code, man I
don't know.
Matt (41:13):
So let me see, remember we have, we have honoring, we have
, we have fun, we have selfaccountability.
We have other five, yeah, thereare five different, different
values there.
Oh, integrity.
(41:33):
Integrity is one of them.
And then, what's so?
What do you?
What's the difference betweenhonor and integrity in your
system?
Well, honoring is caring forthings that are important to you
.
Angelo (41:49):
Okay.
Matt (41:51):
Right, and honoring someone else, pointing to the
good within someone else andpointing to the good within
someone else, and pointing tothe good within, uh, within
yourself, and integrity is aconnection between the thought,
word and action.
Okay, so yeah, you can.
You can also honor thatintegrity and honoring yourself
(42:11):
by staying in integrity, right?
So here's another example, oneof them we prioritize being
healthy and so honoring the mind, the body and the spirit, so
doing justice to the good ofthose things, wow.
Angelo (42:33):
That's funny.
That's what I like to do duringLent.
I try to pick three practicesOne for the body, one for the
mind and one for the spirit towork on myself.
Keep my body healthy, keep mymind healthy, keep my spirit
healthy.
Matt (42:49):
That's awesome.
Angelo (42:50):
Yeah, well, it's good that you put that into practice
with your family.
Matt (42:54):
Yeah, practice with your family, yeah, and is there two
that that helena put forth to usas parts of the code, which
really speak to two kind ofprofound poles and that I think
are summed up in one statementbut are better parsed out into
two statements, right?
And one is remembering thedivinity, our divine connection
(43:20):
within us, and that we're a, youknow, a spark we are each
sparks of the divine.
And then the second part isreally accepting and this speaks
to the shame thing, right, andthe antidote to it, I would say,
is accepting the, you know, themessiness of being human and
the imperfections that comealong with that.
(43:43):
It's in the rejection of that,that's where the shame comes in,
right yeah, you're accepting itwhen you're, you know, loving
yourself as you are, and youdon't, you know, there's always
growth.
There's always like, yeah, youcan, yeah, you can definitely
grow.
And that's another place whereI think these wires have gotten
(44:05):
crossed with us.
Is that, oh, how to say it?
like it's really hard, if youhave a lot of internalization of
shame, to then look forward togrowth because, the message that
you hear is there's somethingwrong with me, right, and that
(44:26):
growth is somehow trying to fixsomething that's wrong with you,
which is the interpretation,but that's not the truth.
And again it's not the pointright, but it's the shame, truth
.
And again it's not the point,right, but it's the shame that
gets in the way of that growth.
Angelo (44:42):
I think it's tricky because a lot of times you
identify with something and whenyou have to cut that thing out,
you feel like there's somethingwrong with me because I
identify with this part of me.
So like, for instance, maybethere's a person with anger
(45:02):
issues and they say I am aperson who's quick to anger
anger.
And then if someone's like well, you need to fix your approach
to these, um issues withoutjumping into anger so quickly,
sometimes those people are likeI'm an angry person, I can't fix
(45:24):
that.
You're trying to say that thatI need to be a completely
different person, but this is me, like you know, and so there's
like a, an identificationbarrier there a lot of times and
I think that's uh, that's thetricky thing.
Um, maybe the solution is to isto really recognize that, uh,
(45:53):
in order to grow and change, youcan't always identify with some
of the lower aspects ofyourself.
You have to recognize thatthere are parts of yourself that
need to die in order for you togrow.
Chris (46:08):
Wow, yeah, it kind of reminds me of a lyric from one
of my favorite songs, which isnot to undermine the consequence
of your actions, but you arenot what you do.
So if you are, if you haveanger right, you don't need to
(46:28):
be defined by that.
Angelo (46:31):
Right, Right or even something mentally like if I
identify with my career or myjob and then I lose my job, I'm
going to feel, my self-worth isgoing to take a hit.
Matt (46:53):
I'm going to feel my self-worth is going to take a
hit.
I'm going to feel crushed.
I want to speak to somethingyou just said, too about say if
you are an angry person and weknow anger can be destructive it
can also be a force within you.
Angelo (47:07):
Defensive.
Matt (47:08):
Defensive Say you could feel shame from people always
calling you.
Oh, you're an angry person.
Oh you, you know flipping outor whatever Like.
But there can be a gift on theother side of that.
That's a passion, right?
But you've so identified withthis story that other people
(47:29):
have told you that you, thatgift, has been invisible to you
I think, it turned to the otherside of that that quote where
that's actually a strength, Ithink we've talked about this
before.
Angelo (47:42):
We're like certain emotions, um, they have
functions and and they can bemisplaced right and so anger
it's a beautiful thing when inits rightful place.
It is a.
You should be passionate aboutcertain things.
You should be passionate aboutyour children and when something
comes and threatens them, youshould step up and be angry and
defend them.
(48:02):
You know, even uh christ in inthe story where he he goes into
his father's house and he'sturning over tables, that was
like righteous anger exactly.
Chris (48:13):
There is such a thing as just anger.
Angelo (48:17):
Sorry, I cut you off no, no, I was pretty much done, but
yeah, I think that even appliesto shame.
There is a righteous sense ofshame, yes, and there's a
applies to shame.
Chris (48:32):
There is a righteous sense of shame?
Angelo (48:36):
Yes, and there's a misplaced shame.
You can feel shame in thingsthat you shouldn't be ashamed
about.
Maybe think about someone whothey have a deformity.
Maybe they've got some sort ofsomething that everyone can see
(48:58):
and they've got a facialdeformity and maybe as a child
they got made fun of for it andso now they go out and they feel
this sense of shame in showingtheir face.
Or you know, what you see?
A lot more commonly is peoplehiding their smile, like some
people just hate to smile withtheir teeth.
They're just like so.
(49:19):
Maybe that someone at somepoint in their life said they
looked ugly when they smile, ortold them not to smile like that
, or laughed at them and saidtheir smile looked funny and
ever since then they just don'tlike to really smile and you'll
see them in photos.
Like you know, they're neverreally smiling unless you catch
(49:43):
them off guard and it's agenuine candid moment.
It's the only time they reallysmile.
But, um, I think that'sactually pretty common if you
think about it.
There's a lot of people whohide their smile, but they, I
would say that's a misplacedsense of shame, because a smile
is such a beautiful outwardlyexpression.
You should never be ashamed ofyour expression of joy that's.
Matt (50:07):
that's a very personal thing too.
There are things that a personcan feel ashamed of, that you
can say, oh, if I just did this,then it would be a different
thing.
But your smile, your face,things like that, where it's
like that's a tough one, whereyou can say you know, I feel
ashamed about this and I alsocan't change this.
(50:29):
Right, this is actuallysomething that is just a part of
who I am and just a part ofreality, right okay.
Chris (50:39):
So don't be ashamed of your smile, unless maybe you're
burning down your neighbor'shouse.
You probably shouldn't smile.
Angelo (50:46):
Oh, there you go so well , it's not.
It's not because your smilelooks ugly, like you shouldn't
be ashamed of.
Because your smile looks ugly,you shouldn't be ashamed of how
your smile looks.
You should be ashamed that youwould take joy in something so
ugly.
Chris (51:01):
And that's righteous shaming, right, right.
How dare you burn yourneighbor's house down?
Stop smiling.
Angelo (51:08):
Yeah, that reminds me.
Recently there was a story of awoman who, uh, it's such an
ugly story but she she stabbed ayoung child, uh, randomly, like
she went out and stabbed uh, Ithink it was a three-year-old,
right in front of her mother.
Oh my god.
And when they were put her ontrial and were talking to her
(51:30):
about it in court, she wassmiling and it was like such an
ugly um thing and just thecomments on the video of her
smiling, just everyone was justoverwhelmed with this sense of
like this.
This woman doesn't deserve eventhe life sentence.
(51:51):
Like this, this person shouldjust be blotted out from society
eliminated yeah for, for how?
yeah it's.
Matt (52:02):
It's such an ugly thing to think about, because it's an
ugly display, yeah, that someonewould take joy, so much joy in
another's genuine suffering well, if you think about, if the
sense of pleasure is theinversion of feeling, say a
righteous sense of shame from anact like that, right, like you
(52:25):
did something so horrendous andyou know it, like in the back of
your mind.
You know it, you know what waswrong and if you're really feel
that, then that would be such anoverwhelming sense of shame and
guilt that you're like, wow,what do I do with all that
negative emotion?
Right, and not to defend, butshe said I always try and
(52:47):
understand why people do thethings that they do, right hmm,
so then.
So then, the feeling ofpleasure can be a mask oh where
that negative emotion would be.
Angelo (53:01):
Maybe there's a, there's a.
There's a power display there.
Like you can't control me, youcan't make me feel guilty for
doing this thing, right?
Like, even if you sentence meto life in prison or the
electric chair or anything, I'mstill going to smile because I
win if I'm smiling.
(53:23):
Yeah, which is not true in theslightest.
But it's got to be somethingstrange going on there.
Matt (53:33):
Yeah.
Angelo (53:34):
There should be a sense of shame.
That would be righteous shameor really righteous guilt.
If you did something like that,you would want to see that
person feeling remorse and youstill might think, hey, that
remorse doesn't change much.
Chris (53:52):
But oh man, a smile is definitely misplaced in that
situation well if, if the smilein that situation is a display
of evil, remorse would be adisplay of good right right you
should be remorseful for fordoing something wrong exactly,
yeah hmm, you know what Ihonestly think?
Angelo (54:22):
this is probably a good place to wrap it up okay but
thanks guys for chatting with meon shame and thank all of you
for taking the time to listenwith us to the end of this
podcast.
If you made it this far, wereally appreciate it.
Um, if you can help us out,like share, subscribe to our
(54:45):
content and if, uh, if you willit, uh, come back next time and
hang out with us again thankspeace.
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