February 24, 2025 • 57 mins
Unlock the secrets of self-mastery and elevate your personal growth journey with hosts Angelo Cole, Chris Vigil, and Matt Maes in this captivating episode of the Telos Initiative. Ever wondered why some people seem to seamlessly blend knowledge and practice to excel in their crafts? Discover how practical experience can outshine theoretical knowledge, with engaging examples like woodworking and blacksmithing. Our conversation promises insights into the delicate dance between planning and executing, illuminating how over-preparation can sometimes hinder progress. With compelling metaphors, we delve into the art of skill refinement, drawing comparisons between cooking and the continuous cycle of learning and doing.
As we navigate the path of self-mastery, we shine a light on the transformative power of adaptability. Can embracing change lead to enhanced physical fitness, organizational prowess, and critical thinking skills? Join us as we explore how a strong mind-body connection can propel you to tackle life's hurdles with newfound strength and assurance. Our discussion uncovers the communal benefits of self-discovery, highlighting how sharing your unique talents can enrich community ties and foster deeper relationships. From the joys of learning new languages to the strategic foresight honed through chess and video games, we illustrate how passion and obsession can drive self-improvement and societal contributions.
Concluding with a thoughtful examination of aligning passion with goals, we challenge you to envision an unstoppable future self. By embracing change as an active process, you can direct your personal evolution towards positive outcomes. Reflect with us on the role of consciousness in recognizing and aiming for potential, as we touch on the acceptance of discipline and functional fitness for greater personal influence. With gratitude for your support, we encourage you to connect with us and stay tuned for more inspiring conversations in our upcoming episodes. Join us on this exhilarating journey of self-mastery and personal growth!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello everyone, welcome back to the Telos
Initiative.
I'm Angelo Cole, I'm ChrisVigil.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Matt Mays.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Today we are going to talk about self-mastery, oh
yeah.
So, matt, this being a topicthat you proposed, why don't you
kick us off?
Maybe let's start with what wealways start with, and start
with the definition for what youthink self-mastery is.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Absolutely Well.
Let's say, when we're born intothe world, we have no
distinction between ourselvesand our experience, and as we go
through the world we discoverthat there is this relationship
between us and this world aroundus and we have things that are
happening to us through externalexperience and we and through
(00:55):
that we have to learn how tocomport ourselves.
We have to learn how to manageourselves and be able to be
masters of not only ourselves,but then we can affect the world
around us too through ourinfluence and through our
capacity that we're able to beintegrated and whole with
ourselves.
(01:15):
And I believe that's a lifelongjourney.
It really never ends.
But through going on thatjourney then we can have the
fullest and most extraordinaryand most integrated lives that
we possibly can.
So that's why this is such animportant topic to me and
something I think that ties inreally well with all of the
(01:37):
different topics that we havetalked about on this show.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Okay, yeah, so with it being a lifelong journey.
There's no real mastery of thatself-mastery.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
It's really just lifelong journeying I don't know
of something is to have so muchexperience and practice at
(02:14):
doing that specific skill thatit comes basically second nature
, I would say to the extent thatyou could show someone else how
to utilize that skill inthemselves.
So a master isn't necessarilysomeone who's achieved a
fullness of knowledge in thatparticular skill, but they know
(02:35):
enough about it to integrateothers.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Okay, so it's not just about information, it's
also about experience.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I would say, experience is one one form of
learning right.
It's probably one of the bestways to learn and master a skill
right.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
You can't just talk about how to catch a baseball.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
You have to know how to do it sure like who's better
at woodworking and building atable?
Is it someone who's actuallybuilt tables or is it someone
who's read all of the steps andinstructions on building a table
?
I would say the person who'sactually gotten his hands dirty
and sat down and worked ontables has had a better chance
(03:19):
to really get into the nuancesof table building.
Really get into the nuances oftable building.
You know all the little thingsto avoid and oh, actually, if I
do this, like the instructionssay, it's not quite, does not
come out quite right.
Or here's a little trick I usein order to do this part faster
and there's just a lot of nuanceand particulars about
(03:41):
everything.
In reality, that it's.
It's hard to sum things up, um,just by writing them down and
trying to digest them withoutactually doing them absolutely
very very well said.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
You know this has been a recent revelation of mine
is I love planning things and I, you know, pride myself on
being able to lay out strategiesand ways of doing things.
But when I'm doing that, thenthe more tasks that I'm laying
on myself that I then have toexecute.
So we can spend so much timepreparing and strategizing and
(04:17):
planning, and there's a time anda place for that.
Absolutely, you know youshouldn't forego planning and
thinking things out.
Absolutely you know youshouldn't forego planning and
thinking things out.
But if the pace of strategizingoutpaces the pace of the
actions that you're taking, thenyou're just going to end up
(04:40):
with this long list of tasksthat just gets longer and longer
and longer and it's going toseem much more daunting rather
than quickening the speed atwhich you get to to action right
and you're moving through thenecessary things right, because
we can.
We can absolutely get addictedto planning you know right to
getting into all those, allthose fine details, and you know
you get into perfectionism,right, but it's you know, you,
(05:03):
you put this so well the thedoing of it.
You know it's the actualexecuting of it.
Like when you're working onsomething, it's not just the
thing that you're working on,it's not just the performance of
the thing you're creating.
Like if you're a blacksmithright and you're crafting a
sword, it it's not just thecrafting of the sword, it's also
(05:26):
the sharpening of your focus,it's the work working on you as
you're working on that thing.
So there's a dynamism betweenthose two things, between the
creation, the project, whateverit is that you're working on,
and your cultivation of yourselfas you are working on that
thing I would say there'ssomething.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
It's something like integrating the internal with
the external right.
You have an idea in your headand you're trying to project it
into reality, and the trick isto get the thing in your head to
match reality right.
So if you're a blacksmith, youhave this idea of what the sword
ought to be, but putting thatinto practice is tricky, and
(06:12):
sometimes you don't quite matchit in your head because you're
not skilled enough to perform it.
There's something wrong withyour technique.
Sometimes what's in your headdoesn't match up with reality,
and so you didn't account forsomething that you need to
account for with the physicalmaterials of creating whatever
(06:32):
you need to create, and so theproblem with just writing out a
plan is you can be very wrongabout your plan.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Right, you can.
You know, I think about likecooking, right you?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
you come up with a recipe and you're like, oh, I
think this is going to be greatand it might taste good and then
you find out you added a littlebit too much of an ingredient
in the planning or somethingdidn't quite work out.
And then you gotta, you gottapractice, and then come back to
the recipe and refine the recipeand then put it back into
practice.
And once you've mastered theback and forth there, then you
(07:09):
can take that recipe, give it toother people, and they should
be able to follow the sameroutine and get the same result
that you did, yes, and with withintention too.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Speaking of of cooking, there's the um, where
did I read this?
There was a story I don't knowif you've heard it where this,
uh, or this woman is cookingthis chicken or something like
that, and what she does is she,you know, cuts off the ends of
it and she her daughter's askingher why, why do you do that?
You know?
And she's like oh, you know,this is my, the way my mom did
(07:42):
it.
And she's like, okay, so shegoes and she talks to the mom.
She's like, well, it's the waythat grandma did it, you know.
And she's like, okay, well,then she goes and talks to
grandma and she's like what, youknow, why do you do it this way
?
She's like, oh, I did it, so itfit in the pan, so it would go
in the oven.
It had nothing to do with thenecessity of of the recipe
itself.
(08:02):
She just chopped off the theend, so it could, you know, fit
in the pan to fit in the oven,right.
So the reasoning behind thethings that you're that you're
doing really helps you to well.
That's such an importantquestion too, is why?
Why am I doing it this way?
Because that can allow you toreally go in and dissect the
(08:24):
thing.
And this goes in when you'replanning or really when you're
adjusting what it is that you'redoing.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Right, and sometimes the process can inform the
result in the case of the sizeof the pan.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
So, now that we've kind of maybe got a little bit
of a grip on what mastery is,what does it mean to master
yourself?
How can you be a master of self?
Is there an objective measurefor what the self ought to be?
How can you?
How can you tell when you'vemastered the self?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
It's levels and levels and levels, deep.
I mean, think about I'm goingto go real deep here so think
about all of the geneticinheritance that we have as
human beings, leading all theway back to, say, the first
humans, and all the way back tothen, like all of that potential
(09:20):
that's within us.
Right Now I hear this a youknow certain people who are like
you, are perfect, whole andcomplete as you are, which the
way that that's translated seemsto leave out, like your ability
to adjust right, like you are,just as you are.
(09:41):
All that you're doing isperfectly right, which, as we
know, is off base.
I mean you have to be able toadjust right you have to be able
to recognize where you've madea misstep of some kind and say
what's a better action than thatand be able to steer your sales
right.
So I think that a much betterway to understand that statement
(10:03):
is you have all that you needinside of you, including the
potential.
Like you have all that you needwithin you, that potential is a
part of you too, and so, whenyou have this journey of
unfolding all that, you couldpossibly be into the world, what
(10:24):
you could even perceive as the,the ideal in your mind like you
can do things that continuallyamaze you and you say wow, that
came out of me.
How could that wow you?
Not only did you do it, but yousaw yourself doing it, you
realized yourself doing it.
You say if I can do that, whatelse can I possibly do?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
and you just keep going and going and going on
this on this journey I like tothink of the self as the the
part, the the part of you thatis adaptive, right, what you are
is informed by your environmentto an extent and as your
environment changes you extent.
And as your environment changesyou have to adapt to that
(11:06):
environment.
And the more you conform toyour environment in a cohesive
way, the better adapted andbetter you are for that
environment.
So I would go to the extent ofsaying self-mastery would be the
ability to adapt yourself toany environment quickly and
(11:29):
seamlessly and to be able to getothers to adapt themselves to
their environments, to have somesort of a pattern of, of moving
forward into the unknowneffectively into the unknown
effectively.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Okay, I think that's good.
Um, I think that.
So there are symptoms rightthere.
I think that there are symptomsof self-mastery here.
I think one of them might be agreater level of fitness,
especially when guys like this,you know, start we're exercising
and working out and being onthe keto diet and stuff they
start getting a little more fit,start looking a lot healthier,
and that's a symptom ofself-mastery, a greater ability
(12:12):
of organization, going into theunknown and having good critical
thinking skills right to applyto whatever situation you're in.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
I think those are symptoms, but self-mastery
itself like, the program thatyou're going to follow as an
individual is going to be veryspecific to the person or an
analogy for other forms ofself-mastery, because what
(12:44):
you're doing with fitness like,let's say, you go train weights
or do cardio or whatever you'redoing you're putting yourself
through a little bit of pain andtorture in order for your body
to grow and be more effective.
And when you are a physicallyfit person and you're faced with
(13:04):
a physical challenge, you'remore adapted to take on that
challenge.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Right.
If I, for whatever reason, needto run really fast and get out
of the way of danger, if I'vebeen making myself run every day
and keeping myself in healthyshape, I'm more likely to be
able to adapt to that scenariobecause I put myself through the
(13:32):
routine of running every day.
If I need to be able toeffectively lift someone up for
whatever reason um, to get overa fence or something, if I can't
lift their body weight becauseI haven't been training myself,
how am I going to adapt to thatspecific scenario?
(13:54):
Absolutely, you can do the samething with your mind, right.
You can go and make sure you'restudying and looking at
different forms of knowledge andphilosophy and mathematics and
all of these different genres,and then, when you're faced with
a tough problem, you can say ah, this is something I've come
across before.
Oh, I might not even know theanswer to this problem, but I
(14:17):
know how this kind of stuffworks so I can solve this
problem yeah I know where tofind the answer.
I'm well adapted to thesechaotic situations.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah, the confidence and you know going to the
fitness, like the physicalfitness example.
Again, that can have apsychological effect too, like I
definitely remember when I was,you know, 140, some pounds,
whatever, and I did not feelstrong and I I really disliked
the feeling of not being fit ornot feeling that fullness.
(14:50):
But having gone to the gym andreally been developing myself
for a number of years, there's apsychological sturdiness that
comes with that too.
You know where it's like, well,I'm, I'm, I'm not really as
concerned about danger around mebecause I feel strong and I
(15:11):
feel fit, and that also carriesinto the type of tasks that I'm
undergoing too.
I can feel like, yeah, I'm, youknow I have the, I have the
heft and this, the strength tobe able to do that.
You know I'm speaking of the,the mind body connection, that's
.
That's really real too, and youknow we hear about that in
martial arts.
(15:31):
But I absolutely that alsocarries over into general
fitness as well.
I mean really, what in mind?
Speaker 1 (15:38):
yeah, when you're training at the gym, you're more
training your mind than you areyour body.
You have to push yourself to acertain level of failure in
order for you to get anymuscular growth and there's that
part of your mind that's like Ican't, I can't, I can't, and
you have to train yourself topush past that part and that
(16:03):
part never exactly goes away.
You just get more adapted togoing there.
Same thing with, like you say,martial arts, but even just
fights in general.
If you're inexperienced in afight, you get into a fight.
You're not used to being inthat panic mode.
If you're like a professionalboxer, you go there all the time
.
Oh yeah, and it's not so muchthat you don.
(16:25):
You don't have a fight flightresponse in those fighting
moments, but you're well adaptedto handling that level of
stress, to where you caneffectively perform when needed
be rather than panic and beoverrun by your emotions.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
So I want to go to when you're starting brand new
at something, say we're talkinga lot about when someone is not
well-adapted, versus when theyare well-adapted.
Right, like you don't justusually start off well-adapted,
you may have some measure oftalent in something that you're
doing and it's good to followthat and say you know, I have a
(17:10):
bag of skill that I can startoff with at this thing, but
that's not always the case,right, there can be a hidden
skill that you have to uncoverand you have to be willing to
suck at the thing first andgoing through those growing
pains till you're at least feeladept at that thing right to
feel like, yeah, I can kind ofown this skill that I have right
(17:33):
there's something to be saidfor natural talent.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
everybody is dealt the hand of cards that they're
dealt, and some people arenaturally just equipped to do
some things better than others.
Some people just have a naturalinclination towards math.
Some people just are great atrunning and they're just like I
don't know, I'm just faster thanmost people right now, and then
you can take that head startand even push it even further.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Just because you have those talents, that doesn't
necessarily mean that you haveto desire those for your life.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
True, it's up to you on which talents you use, but I
would say you know, wastedtalents are kind of sad.
It's a little sad for sure it'slike you don't want to be
Superman and then just be like,yeah, just sit on the couch.
I don't feel like savinganybody.
And then just be like, yeah,just sit on the couch.
I don't feel like savinganybody, you know.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Oddly enough, I asked myself recently what's
something that I really wantedto accomplish in life,
especially because I'm justgetting to middle age and don't
have any spouses or any kids orwhatever, unlike you, gentlemen,
and my answer was surprisinglyselfish.
I kind of I so when you grow uplatin american but you don't
(18:52):
speak any spanish, you know kindof have this uh you have this
great shame about it, like, ohman, I really need to learn
spanish.
But you know what?
I really want?
To learn french.
I mean, you know it's becausesomething I did in third grade
and I kind of just like thefrench language.
I don't know, I just reallylike french beautiful language
and um, I also realized I don'tneed to like move the world in
(19:18):
this grand sense.
Um, like I don't really, Idon't feel like I owe anything
to anybody.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Uh, I mean so there's , there's like a communal aspect
to a lot of this stuff, right?
So you learning french?
If we go back to theadaptability idea, you learning
french adapts you to be able tocommunicate better with others
and to be able to read french,to be able to understand things
going on in the French-speakingworld.
(19:46):
If you happen to need to talkto someone in French, or
somebody else is like hey, chris, I can't talk in French, can
you help me out with this?
You would be adapted to thatsituation.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
So and also think about the idea that it's not
just about you and what you cando for yourself.
Like, let's go back to thephysical fitness idea.
Okay, if I'm physically fit andI wear that on myself, others
can see that I have thediscipline and the strength and
(20:19):
determination to be physicallyfit.
Because they see that in me,then when they need something
there, who are they more likelygoing to ask?
You know if, if a lady needshelp uh, moving furniture are
they going to ask the child, whois clearly small and probably
can't lift something?
Are they going to ask, you know, the guy who looks like he's
(20:41):
been working out like oh yeah,you're at the top of that list,
my friend, for sure, I'm gettingthere.
But I mean, that's the thing,it's a communal thing.
It connects you more withothers and they're more likely
to rely on you in thosesituations.
Sure so same thing withlanguage right, You're adapted
to speak better to other people.
Or if you're a smart person andyou've demonstrated that in the
(21:04):
way you talk and yourvocabulary, they're more likely
to ask you questions about smartthings like hey, this guy
probably knows hey, I know chrisfixes technology things.
Maybe he can help me fix mycomputer.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Certainly don't, so but I love that your gift is
something that you can then giveto others too.
You know we talk about successa lot Like what's the secret.
I think that's one of, if notthe secrets of success that they
(21:37):
don't say Like what it isthat's innately yours, innately
your gift, or something thatyou've've cultivated that
someone else can have need ofthat, that when you provide that
to someone, and that's a value.
Yeah, then you'd make aharmonious exchange.
It's not, it's not somefabricated thing.
(21:58):
You're like well, I canactually do this and this
actually creates a harmonious,good situation for this person.
And then there's that you know,there's the interdependence
between you.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
You're giving of your skill and then that person is
hopefully reciprocating in someway that that fulfills one of
your needs I would go as far asto say that the whole point of
self-mastery and learning skillsin general is to help you
better integrate into yourcommunity.
(22:31):
I mean, what is the point ofjust learning things only to
keep yourself alive for longer,like what's the point of just
you know, if you're a guy on anisland?
Yeah, there's, there's theskill of surviving on the island
, but at some point it's just ameans with no end.
(22:54):
You want, we as humans aresocial creatures.
We naturally are inclined tointegrate each other and we we
want to work together andthere's a joy in that is that
what you learned on the island,tom hanks?
well, I mean even in castaway,tom hanks needs to create some
(23:20):
volleyball person to communewith.
He has to, or else he's lostwithout it.
Yeah, even to the extent thathe's willing to risk his own
life to save this volleyballfigure.
That's how important thecommunal aspect is, even in a
movie where you're a man on yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
It reminds me of that meme where that guy's got a bow
tie on and he's like Of courseI talk to myself, I need a
professional opinion every nowand then.
That guy's got a bow tie on andhe's like, of course.
I talk to myself.
I need a professional opinionevery now and then.
Nice, I didn't see that.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
I like that one you need to call in an expert
opinion and it's me Monocle Onpoint with the answer Yet again.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
I mean, all jokes aside, I think that's self.
You can't attain self-masteryand superior, like functional
fitness, without talking toyourself every now and then.
I think that I keep thinkingthat this podcast is revolving
around the idea of the fourarchetypes.
I mean, when we talk aboutplanning, right, that's the
magician's supervisory,organizational ability.
(24:36):
But when we talk about makingit reality right, actualizing
that potential, we talk aboutthe warrior aspect of the self.
Yes, unless I'm mistaken, Ithink, talk about the warrior
aspect of the self.
Yes, unless I'm mistaken I thinkit's the warrior right?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
No, totally, the one who's going and carrying out the
quest and carrying out theactions.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Carrying out the quest.
Yeah, yeah, I never thoughtabout that.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Because the king?
He just kind of sits there.
Well, think about it, the kingis the one who sends the knights
and them out on the quest.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Right, the king is the leadership and I love that
you went there too.
Thank you for going to thearchetypes, of course.
Yeah, the warriors going outand doing the quest and doing
the actions that are going tomake that thing a reality.
You know, even the magiciansitting up in the mind or
(25:28):
sitting up in the, the tower,writing out the plans, and then
warrior is the one who goes outand does the things you know,
and the lover makes the wholething fun and vibrant, of course
.
But I wanted, I wanted to talkabout uh, you say superiority,
(25:50):
or it's okay, it's this, thisdichotomy that we have between
superiority and inferiority.
But then there's a third right,which is interiority.
Okay, so you know, superiorityand inferiority only happen in
(26:12):
comparison with yourself,relative to other people.
Now you can measure yourprogress.
You can measure yourself inthese different ways, but where
the real vitality is is yourself, say, competing with yourself,
or yourself in your own personaldevelopment.
Like, even when you're in agame of some kind and the other
(26:37):
person say you're playing chessand the other person is making
their moves, you can't controlthat person making their moves.
They're a set of, they'recreating a set of factors on the
board.
All you can only ever do isplay your own game.
You can only ever respond inthe way that you're going to
(27:00):
respond.
That's all you have controlover right.
So when you have that level ofself-discipline and self-control
, then you're able to play thebest game that you possibly can
with that person.
Then, as uh, I had to use theword sounding board as a, as
feedback, you know so you'reyeah, so you're rubbing up
(27:25):
against that, that challenge.
You know you're strikingagainst that, that challenge,
but you're rubbing up againstthat challenge, you're striking
against that challenge, butyou're the one who's developing
you and they're the ones who aredeveloping themselves through
the crucible of the game thatyou're playing.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
The game is a vehicle toward the mastery of something
deeper.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Absolutely, you are practicing your adaptability in
the realm of strategy oh yeah,well, yes, so take a look at
yourself and take a look at theconditions that you find
yourself in, and thoseconditions will express the
potentiality of your owncharacter.
(28:08):
Right, that's right, okay, wellsaid Beautifully said,
beautifully said.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
I like to think a lot of things we do are just
practicing this idea ofadaptability.
Like, let's say, you just getreally good at chess.
Well, chess in the realm ofsurvival isn't really necessary.
It's not like you need chess inorder to adapt to surviving in
(28:41):
nature necessarily.
It's something you do.
It's almost practicing a form ofthinking it is you're
practicing, coming up with,coming up with ways to move
several steps ahead, and you'reexpanding that part of your
(29:03):
brain.
A lot of people practice chessand it's entertaining too, you
know there's there's theentertainment aspect of it, but
deeper than that, I think, isyou're practicing how to adapt
this, this part of your brainthat's learning how to think
ahead and keeping you knowcertain moves and things and
(29:24):
looking, trying to predict whatthis guy's move is going to be,
and there's something about thatthat can map on what you're
doing in chess onto your greaterreality.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Right, and that skill in chess is called a strategic
forethought.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Okay, right, strategic forethought Okay Right
, strategic forethought.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
So if I can think ahead four or five moves in
advance, which is extremelyadvanced to do, by the way, I
think I've in my day managedlike one, maybe two moves ahead,
and it's been a long time.
But yeah, so if you have thatskill in chess, you can actually
map that out into real life allthe time.
(30:10):
I mean, chess is always abouttaking the resources that you
have currently right on theposition on the board.
You might be down, I don't know, a bishop, right, a knight or
several pawns, and thatmentality does come out into
real life.
You realize, okay, so these arethe resources I have right now.
(30:33):
I can expect these resourceslater, but in the meantime this
is going to happen on this dayit's just organizing your life
in a on a calendar right.
That helps, kind of like howplaying video games like video
games aren't necessary forsurvival, right, but if you play
(30:53):
enough video games, yourreaction time can improve yeah,
video games are kind of like.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
It's a form of being able to test something out in a
virtual world without actuallyputting any real risk yeah into
the thing in a weird way.
And that's kind of whatimagination does too.
Right, if you're able to kindof imagine a scenario in your
head and then what you'reimagining actually maps onto
(31:23):
reality, you're able to play outa scenario without really
taking any actual risk.
In fact, I think that'sprobably a good reason why
imagination potentially evolvedoh yeah, have you guys seen the
show queen's gambit, by anychance?
Speaker 3 (31:41):
oh, yeah, yeah okay, well it's.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
It's about this girl who she ends up being a chess
prodigy right Starts from a veryyoung age and she learns from
this guy in a boiler room in heryou know girl's orphanage right
, and so she's laying in bed.
There's this one scene whereshe's looking up at the ceiling
and you have this holographicimage from her mind and she's
(32:07):
imagining these different movesbeing made on the ceiling.
And you have this holographicimage from her mind.
She's imagining these differentmoves being made on the ceiling
.
So even outside of playing theactual game, she's imagining
these different chess scenarios.
Then she goes and plays thisguy and she ends up surpassing
him because even outside of thatgame she's thinking about chess
, she's obsessed with chessright, and oh my god, how
(32:31):
obsession um goes into intoself-mastery as well.
That that combustion, that drive, you know that you just, you're
fed off of the activity thatyou're doing to such a degree
that you think about it.
You are practicing it, you'rehoning it all the time.
So that's gonna.
(32:53):
You're gonna get so muchfurther than someone who just
does it casually or is restingon their laurels.
They might think that they'revery talented, indeed.
They might, they might be verytalented, but you have that
velocity.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
You have that rocket ship of obsession going for you
yeah, you know I was thinking ofum stances, like in martial
arts.
Um, I was specifically thinkingof jujitsu.
There's certain positions thatare optimal for certain
scenarios, right, um, you, thereare some basic phases that you
(33:31):
go into, like mount or sidecontrol, or you know different
things like that to whereoptimal.
There are optimal things thatyou can do from there.
Or, if you're in one of thosepositions, you want to get into
a more optimal position to getyourself out.
(33:51):
You know, if someone's mountingyou, you do this, then you do
this.
I was even thinking about, um,like general step fighting
stances before you've evengotten into the fight.
Right, you want to get into aposition that makes it the most
adaptable or the most optimalfor you to face whatever's going
(34:13):
to come at you.
Right, and the same thing goeswith chess.
Right, you have certain openingscenarios that people memorize,
right?
You have, you know, the Queen'sGambit.
Or you have like have theLondon system, where you kind of
set up your pieces and they'resupposed to be set up in a way
(34:35):
where you have optimal offenseand defense and you can play
that system effectively againstdifferent scenarios, against you
know, different scenarios, andI was just thinking about
different forms of optimalpositions, right?
Um, like I think in maybe it'stai chi or something you kind of
(34:59):
like have this general spacestance that you get into before
you kind of like move into theseother ones.
Um, trying to think of anotherone.
Um, maybe when you're playingpool, there's like an optimal
(35:21):
position to hold the cue, yes,so that you can hit the ball
properly wherever you're uhstanding or something now, now
you're in my zone with the pool.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Um, I'd like to tell people, having the having your
stance together in pool is atleast like 50 of your game right
there, because when you're setup and you have this almost
lunge with your legs and you'reas low down as you can be
(35:55):
comfortably to see, at eye levelwith the pool table, with the
cue and you're, it's almost likelooking down the barrel of a
rifle and it's that aiming rightwhen you have that optimal you
have optimal.
Yeah, so when you have your youknow your resting hand set up
like there's a tripod I don'tknow, you know, if you're
(36:17):
watching video you couldprobably be able to see this,
but like the tripod, right, likethat, there we go.
So you have the cue goingthrough.
Here you have your arm likethis on the back.
It's like a pendulum like this,so you can just easily like that
and hit the ball and justmaster that smooth motion like
that.
(36:37):
Then all you have to do isworry about aiming.
I mean from there.
If you have your stancetogether, then you don't have to
master that anymore.
So that's, and it becomessecond nature.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
You can almost turn on autopilot once you've kind of
mastered the initial stance.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
And everything after that is kind of Same thing you
ever notice when you're driving,when you first are learning how
to drive.
Everything's new.
And so it's like, oh God, I'mgoing to hit the curb.
Oh, my foot needs to go here.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Wait should.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I put two feet down, you know like you're trying to
master all these things at once.
But at some point you get sogood at it that you can drive
and get to your destinationwithout thinking about driving
at all and you'll be like, oh,oh man.
I don't even remember, I waslike totally in my head the
whole time.
But I'm, like you know, takingall these turns and everything.
(37:32):
But it's so ingrained into yourmind that you can put the
mental energy towards otherthings.
Yes, yes, so it's automatic,automatic, it is even, uh,
another one's like playingguitar right at first.
It's like learning all thechords really hard.
(37:55):
My fingers hurt.
Uh, I gotta learn how to strumproperly.
It feels weird my hand.
These things are awkward.
And at some point where youkind of get everything going,
you're not even thinking youknow exactly where that note is,
like oh yeah, a minor, oh gee,and you're just oh yeah, and
(38:18):
then you can put that mentalenergy towards actually coming
up with some musicalityabsolutely in the song.
You create your own musicintuitively, without having to
literally think of the note yeah, because you have built up
those skills.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Like we think of this , the skills as building up a
pyramid right so we have skillsstacked on skills, stacked on
skills, stacked on skills so ifyou're just starting out and say
you're playing guitar andyou're learning how to play
guitar, you want to learnsomething basic, like how to
strike the chords properly orhow to hit those notes,
(39:00):
something easy.
So then you do that for longenough, then that skill gets
baked in.
Now you can move to a moreadvanced skill and you can do
that until that becomes secondnature, and then you start
stacking those up and then youknow, then you don't have to
worry about learning all ofthese skills all over again, you
(39:20):
can focus on something that'sreally what you want to be
focused on.
Yeah, like, oh, I I know how to, I'm very good at timing, I
know how to uh, you know,maneuver the scales.
I know how to, how to like, hitthe notes without looking at
the guitar, that type of thing.
So you can be more free to toimagine, you can be more free to
(39:43):
to create something that's, youknow, really fluid.
And so, talking about the, thejourney of mastery, that's
something that happens along thejourney and how you're able to
achieve those higher levels ofmastery.
Because you've you've done thegood work of building up all of
(40:04):
these little meta skills.
That's why, would you know,basketball players I mean some
of the greatest basketballplayers talk about like the
fundamental master, thefundamentals right.
You get those really down pat.
If you know how to move right,you know how.
If you know how to move right,you know how to switch balls
from this hand to that hand andhow to shoot from over here and
(40:26):
over here and your footwork andall those type of things.
And you see other players doingall this, trying to do this
fancy shit, but they don't haveall the fundamentals down and
you have spent all that timemastering those grounding skills
and all of that stacks up overtime and then it's really the
(40:46):
person who has the fundamentalsmost well together that is going
to end up succeeding in thegame it's funny, I was talking
to my son about something reallysimilar.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Oh well, I was telling him.
You know, I'm always telling him, don't be on autopilot, like
you know he'll be doing thedishes and he'll be doing them
all wrong and it's like, hey,you got to get out of autopilot
and really focus on what you'redoing.
But then I recently was tellinghim, well, because he's like
you shouldn't be on autopilot,and I was like, well, there, you
(41:18):
can be on autopilot.
If you're really good at thething you're doing, then you
should be on autopilot.
You don't want to be onautopilot if being not present
is hurting the thing that you'redoing, but you do want to be on
autopilot if the thing you'redoing is optimal.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
That's an interesting distinction between what would
we call that, between beingcareless versus being fluid
right, there you go, fluent yeslike I was thinking mindful, but
yeah mindful, yeah, well yeahit begins with mindfulness and
then turns into.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
You have to be present at first and refine your
technique.
And well, I like the wordfluent because it's like
language right at first.
When you're learning a language, um, you're almost translating
in your head, right when you'relike this word equals this and
then this word equals this, andyou're trying to connect them.
(42:22):
And it's a little weird becausein different languages you have
to switch the grammar around.
You're like oh, and spanishadjectives actually come after
the word and you're you're doingall these mental tricks to try
and get your brain to like graspthe thing.
But ideally, once it's fluent,you can skip that middle step
(42:43):
and the word is just immediate,the word just.
You're fluent in that language.
You can actually say what youreally want to say without
having to lego build with words,right right, I was trying to
(43:04):
think of what's the appropriatelike skill metaphor, dishes, I
guess.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Right, you have to sit down, you have to like
really focus and make time forit, and you know, scrub, scrub,
scrub, rinse yeah okay, but thenwell it's like what's the goal
of dishes
Speaker 2 (43:24):
right times.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
You know you're just like.
You don't need to make time forit anymore.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
You just if you have if you have the goal in mind,
you you can optimize thestrategy.
So, like, the goal of dishes isto be able to make sure they're
actually clean.
So if you are doing them butyou're on autopilot and you're
being careless, you're notnoticing that the dish isn't
actually clean, that's bad,that's not a good thing to do.
(43:50):
But if you're just so good atthe dishes that everything you
do just makes sure that they'reclean and you can also put your
mental energy towards somethingelse while you're doing that,
you know you're a master.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
You're a dish master having, oh my god, uh, how much
of your internal resources youhave to allocate to that skill
too.
It's like at the front end,it's objectively more
challenging for you.
So you have to be more mindful,you have to think more about it
(44:28):
and put more of your focus intoit than, after a certain point,
your brain's just oh, you knowI, I got this right, not in a
cocky way like you've actually.
You, you actually know whatyou're doing.
You actually have some, somefluency at it, so you don't have
to think as much about thatthing.
You don't have to.
You don't have to be as asconscious as you would have been
(44:51):
just learning the thing.
It's like.
There is, you know, doinggetting the difficulty out of
the way first.
Actually, there was this, thisgreat video I saw recently,
where you have have these twokids that are maybe like seven
years old, each right and theserows of 10 balls, and the idea
was they had to run and go getthose balls and put all of them
(45:14):
into the buckets behind them.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
So they did two opposite things.
The kid on the left goes andgrabs the ones that are closest
to him first.
So he grabs the first one righthere bucket this one bucket,
this one bucket.
The other kid ran all the wayto the end, got that hardest
ball first.
He ran all the way to the end,got that one ran back, ran all
the way to the end got that one,brought that one.
(45:37):
Ran back, ran all the way tothe end got that one, brought
that one back.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
And on the surface, and they reversed so then, he
was getting the closer balls andthe other kid had to get the
farther balls Exactly.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Exactly Because he chose to do the harder thing
first, so that kid who startedoff doing the easy things.
The task got harder and harderand harder for him, because he
had to keep running further,whereas the other kid got the
hard work out of the way firstand then he just ended up
working his way back to where hegot, to that last ball.
It was just boom straight inthe bucket and he ended up
(46:12):
timing a little bit faster thanthe other kid.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Interesting.
That's pretty cool.
You know, I was thinking aboutiq and there's two forms of iq.
There's crystallized iq andthere's fluid iq.
Okay, and your crystallized iqis things that you've learned,
uh, specifically, and memorizedfor studies.
You know, like dates in historyor like you know this specific
(46:40):
uh equation for this specificpattern, and it's things that
you've just stored up in yourbrain over a span of time.
But they might not translate,um, if you hadn't memorized them
.
Like, uh, let's say, um, you're, you're adapted to writing
(47:00):
really well in English.
Well, you test kids fromanother country that don't speak
English.
They're not going to pass thatIQ test because they don't know
the language.
They're not adapted to thatspecific scenario.
But fluid IQ Fluid IQ isadaptable.
It's your adaptability todifferent scenarios and you can
(47:22):
test fluid IQ anywhere, with anyage, at any time.
It's just pattern recognitionand so your crystallized IQ is
all dependent on your level ofeducation and how much you've
memorized.
Level of education and how muchyou've memorized and your
(47:43):
crystallized iq.
You can improve across time,but your fluid iq is ingrained
in you.
Your fluid iq never increases.
It only decreases as you ageokay, or I I don't know if
that's 100 true, like maybe youcan try to exercise your, your
fluid iq, but generally that'ssomething that we're born with.
(48:07):
Like some people are naturallybetter at pattern recognition
and fluid iq than others.
Like it's just the hand you'redealt with.
Some people are just smarter tosome extent, but it's a
different type of smart becauseyou know you could have learned
a lot of stuff in school andhave a lot more crystallized cue
(48:29):
than this guy.
But if this guy had the sameopportunity that you had, he
would be heavy.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
So let's think about that in terms of character too,
because say you go into you, sayyou you go to a different
country and they have differentrules, different norm, norms,
different lore, different thingsthat you got to learn.
But say you're adaptable andsay you have the will to learn
(48:57):
and you know how to pick upthings from around you and you
know how to recognize patternsand so you can go into this
completely different place.
Be someone who is open tolearning, be someone who has
that curiosity and say actuallywe're.
Oh my God.
My wife and I were watching thismovie Touch.
(49:18):
I don't know if you guys haveseen that one.
It's about this Icelandic guywho lived in London and he met
this Japanese girl who he fellin love with and he, he starts
working at this Japaneserestaurant and he learns
Japanese Like he knows noJapanese going in, he just
suddenly got a wild hair up hisbutt to go, you know, to go and
(49:46):
work at this Japanese restaurantand ends up meeting this woman
and, you know, while he's therehe's learning the language, he's
learning the customs, he'swriting haikus and stuff like
that, you know, like that youknow so he's able to integrate
himself into that environment bybeing adaptable, by being
curious, and you know that, thatconfidence in that that will to
(50:08):
learn yeah, and I'd say thatguy is more of a self-master
than a guy who might have thesame skill, but he was just born
in that environment, right?
Speaker 1 (50:17):
yeah, you could take that other guy, that second guy,
and put him somewhere else.
Would he be able to adapt asquickly?
Not likely, it'd be tough.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Well, if he had the desire to meet some girl, maybe.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
Right?
I think so.
The things we do for a living,that's right.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Dude learn Japanese Straight up, Straight up learn
Japanese right.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
That takes us back to that idea of the lover being
like the fuel Right, like thepassion drives you, puts you on
the path and gives you energy toget towards the goal.
And so if you can orient thepassion with the goal in mind,
you're unstoppable.
Oh man you're a force ifthey're pulling in opposite
(51:05):
directions, then you've got anissue right yeah, yeah, you
gotta gotta bring those twotogether you know the sword in
the rose man yeah, all right.
I mean, is there any, uh anyother pieces of self-mastery
that you guys kind of want todive into?
Speaker 2 (51:24):
You know I think it's the if we're going to the last
piece, the unfolding over timeand the vision of who you could
be.
Say you are who you are rightnow, but you are also who you
could be.
And say you are who you areright now, but you are also who
you could be in the future.
And say that version isinvisible to people around you,
(51:46):
unless you have someone who'sperceptive to your potential,
someone who has that insightinto who you could be.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
But I would go as far as to say who you ought to be,
because who you could be couldbe a bad thing.
You could be a drug addict.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
No, good point, no good point.
Ok, let's say the the even moreevolved version of yourself,
right?
So people around you who don'thave that same vision that you
have, they would probably haveto Well, I know they would have
to continually learn newversions of you as you're
unfolding.
(52:22):
So either they would have to dothat or you would have to.
You know, bring in a new circlewho does match well with these
continually evolving versionsthat you are, versions that you
(52:43):
are.
So where does it can be to say,sometimes the people who have,
who have met you most?
recently know you better thanthe people who knew you
previously and have seen wellbut not really, uh, paid
attention to, or acknowledged orunderstood your evolution over
time.
It can be, it can be completelyinvisible.
Then they can think of you asthat same exact person when
you're like no man, I'm like,I'm me.
(53:05):
Now like I yeah, of course Igrew, you know.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Of course I hope I would have changed over so many
years, you know I like to saychange is inevitable, but either
you take an activeparticipation in how you change
or you let what happens happensbut no matter what you've got to
change.
So are you going to change in apositive direction and put the
(53:30):
work in, or are you going tosubmit to chaos and hope for the
?
Speaker 2 (53:37):
best you know.
You know when this is a greatthought experiment I like to go
to is because I've had to let alot of things go over my life
and I've had to make a lot ofevolutions, right, and I can
look back at that and say thereused to be a time where this was
true.
And the fact that it's nolonger true and it never has
(54:00):
been true since, right, it'slike I used to be a smoker, from
you know, 18 to 30 years old,more on than off, and I tried to
quit multiple times.
I got to that one point whereI'm like, damn it, no, I'm done,
you know, and I finally, Ithank you I finally hit that
point where I could, where Icould, make that breakthrough
(54:22):
right.
It's like I can look.
I can look back at that, I canlook back at at multiple things.
Be like you know what.
That used to be true.
That's not true anymore.
I evolved right and so when I'mfacing a challenge like that
now, having that experience, Ican say you know what?
It's only a matter of time.
It's only a matter of time.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
until that shit changes, I would almost say
that's kind of the function ofconsciousness.
We already kind of talked aboutconsciousness before, but going
back to that whole conversation, it's like an aiming mechanism,
right.
And it's not just an aimingmechanism, it's a recognition
mechanism.
So you're taking in and thenyou're putting out, but it's
(55:05):
communal with your environment.
It's the environment informswho you are and you inform what
your environment is, and sothere's a give and take right,
give and take right.
(55:25):
And so with our consciousnesswe're supposed to, we're
supposed to recognize what weneed to change in our
environment and try toeffectively change it, but we're
also supposed to recognize whatwe can't change and allow grace
for things to happen.
It's true, can't controleverything.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
If only Ultimate power.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
What do you think we're trying to do with this
podcast?
I don't know same thing we doevery day, trying to take it a
little, we're trying to dealwith this podcast for good, for
good, good, good, okay.
So so, chris, you got adefinition for self-mastery for
(56:19):
us Jesus.
Speaker 3 (56:24):
Talking about all that theory versus practicality,
I liked the idea of acceptingsuffering for the sake of
discipline.
To the end of functionalfitness, okay, okay, to the end
of functional fitness, okay.
I had this whole idea aboutoccupying space that we didn't
(56:45):
get to, but that's okay.
Speaker 1 (56:50):
All right.
Well, with that, I think thishas been a pretty productive
podcast, so let's call it thereAll right.
Thank you everyone for takingthe time to listen.
If you made it this far, let'scall it there All right.
Thank you everyone for takingthe time to listen.
If you made it this far, wereally appreciate it and we hope
that you'll join us next time.
Please like, comment, share,subscribe or whatever you can do
(57:10):
to support us, and we hope tosee you next time.
Can't wait.
It's been real All right.
Speaker 2 (57:16):
Thanks you guys, and enjoy.
Hello everyone, welcome back to the Telos
Initiative.
I'm Angelo Cole, I'm ChrisVigil.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Matt Mays.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Today we are going to talk about self-mastery, oh
yeah.
So, matt, this being a topicthat you proposed, why don't you
kick us off?
Maybe let's start with what wealways start with, and start
with the definition for what youthink self-mastery is.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Absolutely Well.
Let's say, when we're born intothe world, we have no
distinction between ourselvesand our experience, and as we go
through the world we discoverthat there is this relationship
between us and this world aroundus and we have things that are
happening to us through externalexperience and we and through
(00:55):
that we have to learn how tocomport ourselves.
We have to learn how to manageourselves and be able to be
masters of not only ourselves,but then we can affect the world
around us too through ourinfluence and through our
capacity that we're able to beintegrated and whole with
ourselves.
(01:15):
And I believe that's a lifelongjourney.
It really never ends.
But through going on thatjourney then we can have the
fullest and most extraordinaryand most integrated lives that
we possibly can.
So that's why this is such animportant topic to me and
something I think that ties inreally well with all of the
(01:37):
different topics that we havetalked about on this show.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Okay, yeah, so with it being a lifelong journey.
There's no real mastery of thatself-mastery.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
It's really just lifelong journeying I don't know
of something is to have so muchexperience and practice at
(02:14):
doing that specific skill thatit comes basically second nature
, I would say to the extent thatyou could show someone else how
to utilize that skill inthemselves.
So a master isn't necessarilysomeone who's achieved a
fullness of knowledge in thatparticular skill, but they know
(02:35):
enough about it to integrateothers.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Okay, so it's not just about information, it's
also about experience.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I would say, experience is one one form of
learning right.
It's probably one of the bestways to learn and master a skill
right.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
You can't just talk about how to catch a baseball.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
You have to know how to do it sure like who's better
at woodworking and building atable?
Is it someone who's actuallybuilt tables or is it someone
who's read all of the steps andinstructions on building a table
?
I would say the person who'sactually gotten his hands dirty
and sat down and worked ontables has had a better chance
(03:19):
to really get into the nuancesof table building.
Really get into the nuances oftable building.
You know all the little thingsto avoid and oh, actually, if I
do this, like the instructionssay, it's not quite, does not
come out quite right.
Or here's a little trick I usein order to do this part faster
and there's just a lot of nuanceand particulars about
(03:41):
everything.
In reality, that it's.
It's hard to sum things up, um,just by writing them down and
trying to digest them withoutactually doing them absolutely
very very well said.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
You know this has been a recent revelation of mine
is I love planning things and I, you know, pride myself on
being able to lay out strategiesand ways of doing things.
But when I'm doing that, thenthe more tasks that I'm laying
on myself that I then have toexecute.
So we can spend so much timepreparing and strategizing and
(04:17):
planning, and there's a time anda place for that.
Absolutely, you know youshouldn't forego planning and
thinking things out.
Absolutely you know youshouldn't forego planning and
thinking things out.
But if the pace of strategizingoutpaces the pace of the
actions that you're taking, thenyou're just going to end up
(04:40):
with this long list of tasksthat just gets longer and longer
and longer and it's going toseem much more daunting rather
than quickening the speed atwhich you get to to action right
and you're moving through thenecessary things right, because
we can.
We can absolutely get addictedto planning you know right to
getting into all those, allthose fine details, and you know
you get into perfectionism,right, but it's you know, you,
(05:03):
you put this so well the thedoing of it.
You know it's the actualexecuting of it.
Like when you're working onsomething, it's not just the
thing that you're working on,it's not just the performance of
the thing you're creating.
Like if you're a blacksmithright and you're crafting a
sword, it it's not just thecrafting of the sword, it's also
(05:26):
the sharpening of your focus,it's the work working on you as
you're working on that thing.
So there's a dynamism betweenthose two things, between the
creation, the project, whateverit is that you're working on,
and your cultivation of yourselfas you are working on that
thing I would say there'ssomething.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
It's something like integrating the internal with
the external right.
You have an idea in your headand you're trying to project it
into reality, and the trick isto get the thing in your head to
match reality right.
So if you're a blacksmith, youhave this idea of what the sword
ought to be, but putting thatinto practice is tricky, and
(06:12):
sometimes you don't quite matchit in your head because you're
not skilled enough to perform it.
There's something wrong withyour technique.
Sometimes what's in your headdoesn't match up with reality,
and so you didn't account forsomething that you need to
account for with the physicalmaterials of creating whatever
(06:32):
you need to create, and so theproblem with just writing out a
plan is you can be very wrongabout your plan.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Right, you can.
You know, I think about likecooking, right you?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
you come up with a recipe and you're like, oh, I
think this is going to be greatand it might taste good and then
you find out you added a littlebit too much of an ingredient
in the planning or somethingdidn't quite work out.
And then you gotta, you gottapractice, and then come back to
the recipe and refine the recipeand then put it back into
practice.
And once you've mastered theback and forth there, then you
(07:09):
can take that recipe, give it toother people, and they should
be able to follow the sameroutine and get the same result
that you did, yes, and with withintention too.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Speaking of of cooking, there's the um, where
did I read this?
There was a story I don't knowif you've heard it where this,
uh, or this woman is cookingthis chicken or something like
that, and what she does is she,you know, cuts off the ends of
it and she her daughter's askingher why, why do you do that?
You know?
And she's like oh, you know,this is my, the way my mom did
(07:42):
it.
And she's like, okay, so shegoes and she talks to the mom.
She's like, well, it's the waythat grandma did it, you know.
And she's like, okay, well,then she goes and talks to
grandma and she's like what, youknow, why do you do it this way
?
She's like, oh, I did it, so itfit in the pan, so it would go
in the oven.
It had nothing to do with thenecessity of of the recipe
itself.
(08:02):
She just chopped off the theend, so it could, you know, fit
in the pan to fit in the oven,right.
So the reasoning behind thethings that you're that you're
doing really helps you to well.
That's such an importantquestion too, is why?
Why am I doing it this way?
Because that can allow you toreally go in and dissect the
(08:24):
thing.
And this goes in when you'replanning or really when you're
adjusting what it is that you'redoing.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Right, and sometimes the process can inform the
result in the case of the sizeof the pan.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
So, now that we've kind of maybe got a little bit
of a grip on what mastery is,what does it mean to master
yourself?
How can you be a master of self?
Is there an objective measurefor what the self ought to be?
How can you?
How can you tell when you'vemastered the self?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
It's levels and levels and levels, deep.
I mean, think about I'm goingto go real deep here so think
about all of the geneticinheritance that we have as
human beings, leading all theway back to, say, the first
humans, and all the way back tothen, like all of that potential
(09:20):
that's within us.
Right Now I hear this a youknow certain people who are like
you, are perfect, whole andcomplete as you are, which the
way that that's translated seemsto leave out, like your ability
to adjust right, like you are,just as you are.
(09:41):
All that you're doing isperfectly right, which, as we
know, is off base.
I mean you have to be able toadjust right you have to be able
to recognize where you've madea misstep of some kind and say
what's a better action than thatand be able to steer your sales
right.
So I think that a much betterway to understand that statement
(10:03):
is you have all that you needinside of you, including the
potential.
Like you have all that you needwithin you, that potential is a
part of you too, and so, whenyou have this journey of
unfolding all that, you couldpossibly be into the world, what
(10:24):
you could even perceive as the,the ideal in your mind like you
can do things that continuallyamaze you and you say wow, that
came out of me.
How could that wow you?
Not only did you do it, but yousaw yourself doing it, you
realized yourself doing it.
You say if I can do that, whatelse can I possibly do?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
and you just keep going and going and going on
this on this journey I like tothink of the self as the the
part, the the part of you thatis adaptive, right, what you are
is informed by your environmentto an extent and as your
environment changes you extent.
And as your environment changesyou have to adapt to that
(11:06):
environment.
And the more you conform toyour environment in a cohesive
way, the better adapted andbetter you are for that
environment.
So I would go to the extent ofsaying self-mastery would be the
ability to adapt yourself toany environment quickly and
(11:29):
seamlessly and to be able to getothers to adapt themselves to
their environments, to have somesort of a pattern of, of moving
forward into the unknowneffectively into the unknown
effectively.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Okay, I think that's good.
Um, I think that.
So there are symptoms rightthere.
I think that there are symptomsof self-mastery here.
I think one of them might be agreater level of fitness,
especially when guys like this,you know, start we're exercising
and working out and being onthe keto diet and stuff they
start getting a little more fit,start looking a lot healthier,
and that's a symptom ofself-mastery, a greater ability
(12:12):
of organization, going into theunknown and having good critical
thinking skills right to applyto whatever situation you're in.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
I think those are symptoms, but self-mastery
itself like, the program thatyou're going to follow as an
individual is going to be veryspecific to the person or an
analogy for other forms ofself-mastery, because what
(12:44):
you're doing with fitness like,let's say, you go train weights
or do cardio or whatever you'redoing you're putting yourself
through a little bit of pain andtorture in order for your body
to grow and be more effective.
And when you are a physicallyfit person and you're faced with
(13:04):
a physical challenge, you'remore adapted to take on that
challenge.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Right.
If I, for whatever reason, needto run really fast and get out
of the way of danger, if I'vebeen making myself run every day
and keeping myself in healthyshape, I'm more likely to be
able to adapt to that scenariobecause I put myself through the
(13:32):
routine of running every day.
If I need to be able toeffectively lift someone up for
whatever reason um, to get overa fence or something, if I can't
lift their body weight becauseI haven't been training myself,
how am I going to adapt to thatspecific scenario?
(13:54):
Absolutely, you can do the samething with your mind, right.
You can go and make sure you'restudying and looking at
different forms of knowledge andphilosophy and mathematics and
all of these different genres,and then, when you're faced with
a tough problem, you can say ah, this is something I've come
across before.
Oh, I might not even know theanswer to this problem, but I
(14:17):
know how this kind of stuffworks so I can solve this
problem yeah I know where tofind the answer.
I'm well adapted to thesechaotic situations.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah, the confidence and you know going to the
fitness, like the physicalfitness example.
Again, that can have apsychological effect too, like I
definitely remember when I was,you know, 140, some pounds,
whatever, and I did not feelstrong and I I really disliked
the feeling of not being fit ornot feeling that fullness.
(14:50):
But having gone to the gym andreally been developing myself
for a number of years, there's apsychological sturdiness that
comes with that too.
You know where it's like, well,I'm, I'm, I'm not really as
concerned about danger around mebecause I feel strong and I
(15:11):
feel fit, and that also carriesinto the type of tasks that I'm
undergoing too.
I can feel like, yeah, I'm, youknow I have the, I have the
heft and this, the strength tobe able to do that.
You know I'm speaking of the,the mind body connection, that's
.
That's really real too, and youknow we hear about that in
martial arts.
(15:31):
But I absolutely that alsocarries over into general
fitness as well.
I mean really, what in mind?
Speaker 1 (15:38):
yeah, when you're training at the gym, you're more
training your mind than you areyour body.
You have to push yourself to acertain level of failure in
order for you to get anymuscular growth and there's that
part of your mind that's like Ican't, I can't, I can't, and
you have to train yourself topush past that part and that
(16:03):
part never exactly goes away.
You just get more adapted togoing there.
Same thing with, like you say,martial arts, but even just
fights in general.
If you're inexperienced in afight, you get into a fight.
You're not used to being inthat panic mode.
If you're like a professionalboxer, you go there all the time
.
Oh yeah, and it's not so muchthat you don.
(16:25):
You don't have a fight flightresponse in those fighting
moments, but you're well adaptedto handling that level of
stress, to where you caneffectively perform when needed
be rather than panic and beoverrun by your emotions.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
So I want to go to when you're starting brand new
at something, say we're talkinga lot about when someone is not
well-adapted, versus when theyare well-adapted.
Right, like you don't justusually start off well-adapted,
you may have some measure oftalent in something that you're
doing and it's good to followthat and say you know, I have a
(17:10):
bag of skill that I can startoff with at this thing, but
that's not always the case,right, there can be a hidden
skill that you have to uncoverand you have to be willing to
suck at the thing first andgoing through those growing
pains till you're at least feeladept at that thing right to
feel like, yeah, I can kind ofown this skill that I have right
(17:33):
there's something to be saidfor natural talent.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
everybody is dealt the hand of cards that they're
dealt, and some people arenaturally just equipped to do
some things better than others.
Some people just have a naturalinclination towards math.
Some people just are great atrunning and they're just like I
don't know, I'm just faster thanmost people right now, and then
you can take that head startand even push it even further.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Just because you have those talents, that doesn't
necessarily mean that you haveto desire those for your life.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
True, it's up to you on which talents you use, but I
would say you know, wastedtalents are kind of sad.
It's a little sad for sure it'slike you don't want to be
Superman and then just be like,yeah, just sit on the couch.
I don't feel like savinganybody.
And then just be like, yeah,just sit on the couch.
I don't feel like savinganybody, you know.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Oddly enough, I asked myself recently what's
something that I really wantedto accomplish in life,
especially because I'm justgetting to middle age and don't
have any spouses or any kids orwhatever, unlike you, gentlemen,
and my answer was surprisinglyselfish.
I kind of I so when you grow uplatin american but you don't
(18:52):
speak any spanish, you know kindof have this uh you have this
great shame about it, like, ohman, I really need to learn
spanish.
But you know what?
I really want?
To learn french.
I mean, you know it's becausesomething I did in third grade
and I kind of just like thefrench language.
I don't know, I just reallylike french beautiful language
and um, I also realized I don'tneed to like move the world in
(19:18):
this grand sense.
Um, like I don't really, Idon't feel like I owe anything
to anybody.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Uh, I mean so there's , there's like a communal aspect
to a lot of this stuff, right?
So you learning french?
If we go back to theadaptability idea, you learning
french adapts you to be able tocommunicate better with others
and to be able to read french,to be able to understand things
going on in the French-speakingworld.
(19:46):
If you happen to need to talkto someone in French, or
somebody else is like hey, chris, I can't talk in French, can
you help me out with this?
You would be adapted to thatsituation.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
So and also think about the idea that it's not
just about you and what you cando for yourself.
Like, let's go back to thephysical fitness idea.
Okay, if I'm physically fit andI wear that on myself, others
can see that I have thediscipline and the strength and
(20:19):
determination to be physicallyfit.
Because they see that in me,then when they need something
there, who are they more likelygoing to ask?
You know if, if a lady needshelp uh, moving furniture are
they going to ask the child, whois clearly small and probably
can't lift something?
Are they going to ask, you know, the guy who looks like he's
(20:41):
been working out like oh yeah,you're at the top of that list,
my friend, for sure, I'm gettingthere.
But I mean, that's the thing,it's a communal thing.
It connects you more withothers and they're more likely
to rely on you in thosesituations.
Sure so same thing withlanguage right, You're adapted
to speak better to other people.
Or if you're a smart person andyou've demonstrated that in the
(21:04):
way you talk and yourvocabulary, they're more likely
to ask you questions about smartthings like hey, this guy
probably knows hey, I know chrisfixes technology things.
Maybe he can help me fix mycomputer.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Certainly don't, so but I love that your gift is
something that you can then giveto others too.
You know we talk about successa lot Like what's the secret.
I think that's one of, if notthe secrets of success that they
(21:37):
don't say Like what it isthat's innately yours, innately
your gift, or something thatyou've've cultivated that
someone else can have need ofthat, that when you provide that
to someone, and that's a value.
Yeah, then you'd make aharmonious exchange.
It's not, it's not somefabricated thing.
(21:58):
You're like well, I canactually do this and this
actually creates a harmonious,good situation for this person.
And then there's that you know,there's the interdependence
between you.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
You're giving of your skill and then that person is
hopefully reciprocating in someway that that fulfills one of
your needs I would go as far asto say that the whole point of
self-mastery and learning skillsin general is to help you
better integrate into yourcommunity.
(22:31):
I mean, what is the point ofjust learning things only to
keep yourself alive for longer,like what's the point of just
you know, if you're a guy on anisland?
Yeah, there's, there's theskill of surviving on the island
, but at some point it's just ameans with no end.
(22:54):
You want, we as humans aresocial creatures.
We naturally are inclined tointegrate each other and we we
want to work together andthere's a joy in that is that
what you learned on the island,tom hanks?
well, I mean even in castaway,tom hanks needs to create some
(23:20):
volleyball person to communewith.
He has to, or else he's lostwithout it.
Yeah, even to the extent thathe's willing to risk his own
life to save this volleyballfigure.
That's how important thecommunal aspect is, even in a
movie where you're a man on yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
It reminds me of that meme where that guy's got a bow
tie on and he's like Of courseI talk to myself, I need a
professional opinion every nowand then.
That guy's got a bow tie on andhe's like, of course.
I talk to myself.
I need a professional opinionevery now and then.
Nice, I didn't see that.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
I like that one you need to call in an expert
opinion and it's me Monocle Onpoint with the answer Yet again.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
I mean, all jokes aside, I think that's self.
You can't attain self-masteryand superior, like functional
fitness, without talking toyourself every now and then.
I think that I keep thinkingthat this podcast is revolving
around the idea of the fourarchetypes.
I mean, when we talk aboutplanning, right, that's the
magician's supervisory,organizational ability.
(24:36):
But when we talk about makingit reality right, actualizing
that potential, we talk aboutthe warrior aspect of the self.
Yes, unless I'm mistaken, Ithink, talk about the warrior
aspect of the self.
Yes, unless I'm mistaken I thinkit's the warrior right?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
No, totally, the one who's going and carrying out the
quest and carrying out theactions.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Carrying out the quest.
Yeah, yeah, I never thoughtabout that.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Because the king?
He just kind of sits there.
Well, think about it, the kingis the one who sends the knights
and them out on the quest.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Right, the king is the leadership and I love that
you went there too.
Thank you for going to thearchetypes, of course.
Yeah, the warriors going outand doing the quest and doing
the actions that are going tomake that thing a reality.
You know, even the magiciansitting up in the mind or
(25:28):
sitting up in the, the tower,writing out the plans, and then
warrior is the one who goes outand does the things you know,
and the lover makes the wholething fun and vibrant, of course
.
But I wanted, I wanted to talkabout uh, you say superiority,
(25:50):
or it's okay, it's this, thisdichotomy that we have between
superiority and inferiority.
But then there's a third right,which is interiority.
Okay, so you know, superiorityand inferiority only happen in
(26:12):
comparison with yourself,relative to other people.
Now you can measure yourprogress.
You can measure yourself inthese different ways, but where
the real vitality is is yourself, say, competing with yourself,
or yourself in your own personaldevelopment.
Like, even when you're in agame of some kind and the other
(26:37):
person say you're playing chessand the other person is making
their moves, you can't controlthat person making their moves.
They're a set of, they'recreating a set of factors on the
board.
All you can only ever do isplay your own game.
You can only ever respond inthe way that you're going to
(27:00):
respond.
That's all you have controlover right.
So when you have that level ofself-discipline and self-control
, then you're able to play thebest game that you possibly can
with that person.
Then, as uh, I had to use theword sounding board as a, as
feedback, you know so you'reyeah, so you're rubbing up
(27:25):
against that, that challenge.
You know you're strikingagainst that, that challenge,
but you're rubbing up againstthat challenge, you're striking
against that challenge, butyou're the one who's developing
you and they're the ones who aredeveloping themselves through
the crucible of the game thatyou're playing.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
The game is a vehicle toward the mastery of something
deeper.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Absolutely, you are practicing your adaptability in
the realm of strategy oh yeah,well, yes, so take a look at
yourself and take a look at theconditions that you find
yourself in, and thoseconditions will express the
potentiality of your owncharacter.
(28:08):
Right, that's right, okay, wellsaid Beautifully said,
beautifully said.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
I like to think a lot of things we do are just
practicing this idea ofadaptability.
Like, let's say, you just getreally good at chess.
Well, chess in the realm ofsurvival isn't really necessary.
It's not like you need chess inorder to adapt to surviving in
(28:41):
nature necessarily.
It's something you do.
It's almost practicing a form ofthinking it is you're
practicing, coming up with,coming up with ways to move
several steps ahead, and you'reexpanding that part of your
(29:03):
brain.
A lot of people practice chessand it's entertaining too, you
know there's there's theentertainment aspect of it, but
deeper than that, I think, isyou're practicing how to adapt
this, this part of your brainthat's learning how to think
ahead and keeping you knowcertain moves and things and
(29:24):
looking, trying to predict whatthis guy's move is going to be,
and there's something about thatthat can map on what you're
doing in chess onto your greaterreality.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Right, and that skill in chess is called a strategic
forethought.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Okay, right, strategic forethought Okay Right
, strategic forethought.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
So if I can think ahead four or five moves in
advance, which is extremelyadvanced to do, by the way, I
think I've in my day managedlike one, maybe two moves ahead,
and it's been a long time.
But yeah, so if you have thatskill in chess, you can actually
map that out into real life allthe time.
(30:10):
I mean, chess is always abouttaking the resources that you
have currently right on theposition on the board.
You might be down, I don't know, a bishop, right, a knight or
several pawns, and thatmentality does come out into
real life.
You realize, okay, so these arethe resources I have right now.
(30:33):
I can expect these resourceslater, but in the meantime this
is going to happen on this dayit's just organizing your life
in a on a calendar right.
That helps, kind of like howplaying video games like video
games aren't necessary forsurvival, right, but if you play
(30:53):
enough video games, yourreaction time can improve yeah,
video games are kind of like.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
It's a form of being able to test something out in a
virtual world without actuallyputting any real risk yeah into
the thing in a weird way.
And that's kind of whatimagination does too.
Right, if you're able to kindof imagine a scenario in your
head and then what you'reimagining actually maps onto
(31:23):
reality, you're able to play outa scenario without really
taking any actual risk.
In fact, I think that'sprobably a good reason why
imagination potentially evolvedoh yeah, have you guys seen the
show queen's gambit, by anychance?
Speaker 3 (31:41):
oh, yeah, yeah okay, well it's.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
It's about this girl who she ends up being a chess
prodigy right Starts from a veryyoung age and she learns from
this guy in a boiler room in heryou know girl's orphanage right
, and so she's laying in bed.
There's this one scene whereshe's looking up at the ceiling
and you have this holographicimage from her mind and she's
(32:07):
imagining these different movesbeing made on the ceiling.
And you have this holographicimage from her mind.
She's imagining these differentmoves being made on the ceiling
.
So even outside of playing theactual game, she's imagining
these different chess scenarios.
Then she goes and plays thisguy and she ends up surpassing
him because even outside of thatgame she's thinking about chess
, she's obsessed with chessright, and oh my god, how
(32:31):
obsession um goes into intoself-mastery as well.
That that combustion, that drive, you know that you just, you're
fed off of the activity thatyou're doing to such a degree
that you think about it.
You are practicing it, you'rehoning it all the time.
So that's gonna.
(32:53):
You're gonna get so muchfurther than someone who just
does it casually or is restingon their laurels.
They might think that they'revery talented, indeed.
They might, they might be verytalented, but you have that
velocity.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
You have that rocket ship of obsession going for you
yeah, you know I was thinking ofum stances, like in martial
arts.
Um, I was specifically thinkingof jujitsu.
There's certain positions thatare optimal for certain
scenarios, right, um, you, thereare some basic phases that you
(33:31):
go into, like mount or sidecontrol, or you know different
things like that to whereoptimal.
There are optimal things thatyou can do from there.
Or, if you're in one of thosepositions, you want to get into
a more optimal position to getyourself out.
(33:51):
You know, if someone's mountingyou, you do this, then you do
this.
I was even thinking about, um,like general step fighting
stances before you've evengotten into the fight.
Right, you want to get into aposition that makes it the most
adaptable or the most optimalfor you to face whatever's going
(34:13):
to come at you.
Right, and the same thing goeswith chess.
Right, you have certain openingscenarios that people memorize,
right?
You have, you know, the Queen'sGambit.
Or you have like have theLondon system, where you kind of
set up your pieces and they'resupposed to be set up in a way
(34:35):
where you have optimal offenseand defense and you can play
that system effectively againstdifferent scenarios, against you
know, different scenarios, andI was just thinking about
different forms of optimalpositions, right?
Um, like I think in maybe it'stai chi or something you kind of
(34:59):
like have this general spacestance that you get into before
you kind of like move into theseother ones.
Um, trying to think of anotherone.
Um, maybe when you're playingpool, there's like an optimal
(35:21):
position to hold the cue, yes,so that you can hit the ball
properly wherever you're uhstanding or something now, now
you're in my zone with the pool.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Um, I'd like to tell people, having the having your
stance together in pool is atleast like 50 of your game right
there, because when you're setup and you have this almost
lunge with your legs and you'reas low down as you can be
(35:55):
comfortably to see, at eye levelwith the pool table, with the
cue and you're, it's almost likelooking down the barrel of a
rifle and it's that aiming rightwhen you have that optimal you
have optimal.
Yeah, so when you have your youknow your resting hand set up
like there's a tripod I don'tknow, you know, if you're
(36:17):
watching video you couldprobably be able to see this,
but like the tripod, right, likethat, there we go.
So you have the cue goingthrough.
Here you have your arm likethis on the back.
It's like a pendulum like this,so you can just easily like that
and hit the ball and justmaster that smooth motion like
that.
(36:37):
Then all you have to do isworry about aiming.
I mean from there.
If you have your stancetogether, then you don't have to
master that anymore.
So that's, and it becomessecond nature.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
You can almost turn on autopilot once you've kind of
mastered the initial stance.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
And everything after that is kind of Same thing you
ever notice when you're driving,when you first are learning how
to drive.
Everything's new.
And so it's like, oh God, I'mgoing to hit the curb.
Oh, my foot needs to go here.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Wait should.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I put two feet down, you know like you're trying to
master all these things at once.
But at some point you get sogood at it that you can drive
and get to your destinationwithout thinking about driving
at all and you'll be like, oh,oh man.
I don't even remember, I waslike totally in my head the
whole time.
But I'm, like you know, takingall these turns and everything.
(37:32):
But it's so ingrained into yourmind that you can put the
mental energy towards otherthings.
Yes, yes, so it's automatic,automatic, it is even, uh,
another one's like playingguitar right at first.
It's like learning all thechords really hard.
(37:55):
My fingers hurt.
Uh, I gotta learn how to strumproperly.
It feels weird my hand.
These things are awkward.
And at some point where youkind of get everything going,
you're not even thinking youknow exactly where that note is,
like oh yeah, a minor, oh gee,and you're just oh yeah, and
(38:18):
then you can put that mentalenergy towards actually coming
up with some musicalityabsolutely in the song.
You create your own musicintuitively, without having to
literally think of the note yeah, because you have built up
those skills.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Like we think of this , the skills as building up a
pyramid right so we have skillsstacked on skills, stacked on
skills, stacked on skills so ifyou're just starting out and say
you're playing guitar andyou're learning how to play
guitar, you want to learnsomething basic, like how to
strike the chords properly orhow to hit those notes,
(39:00):
something easy.
So then you do that for longenough, then that skill gets
baked in.
Now you can move to a moreadvanced skill and you can do
that until that becomes secondnature, and then you start
stacking those up and then youknow, then you don't have to
worry about learning all ofthese skills all over again, you
(39:20):
can focus on something that'sreally what you want to be
focused on.
Yeah, like, oh, I I know how to, I'm very good at timing, I
know how to uh, you know,maneuver the scales.
I know how to, how to like, hitthe notes without looking at
the guitar, that type of thing.
So you can be more free to toimagine, you can be more free to
(39:43):
to create something that's, youknow, really fluid.
And so, talking about the, thejourney of mastery, that's
something that happens along thejourney and how you're able to
achieve those higher levels ofmastery.
Because you've you've done thegood work of building up all of
(40:04):
these little meta skills.
That's why, would you know,basketball players I mean some
of the greatest basketballplayers talk about like the
fundamental master, thefundamentals right.
You get those really down pat.
If you know how to move right,you know how.
If you know how to move right,you know how to switch balls
from this hand to that hand andhow to shoot from over here and
(40:26):
over here and your footwork andall those type of things.
And you see other players doingall this, trying to do this
fancy shit, but they don't haveall the fundamentals down and
you have spent all that timemastering those grounding skills
and all of that stacks up overtime and then it's really the
(40:46):
person who has the fundamentalsmost well together that is going
to end up succeeding in thegame it's funny, I was talking
to my son about something reallysimilar.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Oh well, I was telling him.
You know, I'm always telling him, don't be on autopilot, like
you know he'll be doing thedishes and he'll be doing them
all wrong and it's like, hey,you got to get out of autopilot
and really focus on what you'redoing.
But then I recently was tellinghim, well, because he's like
you shouldn't be on autopilot,and I was like, well, there, you
(41:18):
can be on autopilot.
If you're really good at thething you're doing, then you
should be on autopilot.
You don't want to be onautopilot if being not present
is hurting the thing that you'redoing, but you do want to be on
autopilot if the thing you'redoing is optimal.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
That's an interesting distinction between what would
we call that, between beingcareless versus being fluid
right, there you go, fluent yeslike I was thinking mindful, but
yeah mindful, yeah, well yeahit begins with mindfulness and
then turns into.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
You have to be present at first and refine your
technique.
And well, I like the wordfluent because it's like
language right at first.
When you're learning a language, um, you're almost translating
in your head, right when you'relike this word equals this and
then this word equals this, andyou're trying to connect them.
(42:22):
And it's a little weird becausein different languages you have
to switch the grammar around.
You're like oh, and spanishadjectives actually come after
the word and you're you're doingall these mental tricks to try
and get your brain to like graspthe thing.
But ideally, once it's fluent,you can skip that middle step
(42:43):
and the word is just immediate,the word just.
You're fluent in that language.
You can actually say what youreally want to say without
having to lego build with words,right right, I was trying to
(43:04):
think of what's the appropriatelike skill metaphor, dishes, I
guess.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Right, you have to sit down, you have to like
really focus and make time forit, and you know, scrub, scrub,
scrub, rinse yeah okay, but thenwell it's like what's the goal
of dishes
Speaker 2 (43:24):
right times.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
You know you're just like.
You don't need to make time forit anymore.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
You just if you have if you have the goal in mind,
you you can optimize thestrategy.
So, like, the goal of dishes isto be able to make sure they're
actually clean.
So if you are doing them butyou're on autopilot and you're
being careless, you're notnoticing that the dish isn't
actually clean, that's bad,that's not a good thing to do.
(43:50):
But if you're just so good atthe dishes that everything you
do just makes sure that they'reclean and you can also put your
mental energy towards somethingelse while you're doing that,
you know you're a master.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
You're a dish master having, oh my god, uh, how much
of your internal resources youhave to allocate to that skill
too.
It's like at the front end,it's objectively more
challenging for you.
So you have to be more mindful,you have to think more about it
(44:28):
and put more of your focus intoit than, after a certain point,
your brain's just oh, you knowI, I got this right, not in a
cocky way like you've actually.
You, you actually know whatyou're doing.
You actually have some, somefluency at it, so you don't have
to think as much about thatthing.
You don't have to.
You don't have to be as asconscious as you would have been
(44:51):
just learning the thing.
It's like.
There is, you know, doinggetting the difficulty out of
the way first.
Actually, there was this, thisgreat video I saw recently,
where you have have these twokids that are maybe like seven
years old, each right and theserows of 10 balls, and the idea
was they had to run and go getthose balls and put all of them
(45:14):
into the buckets behind them.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
So they did two opposite things.
The kid on the left goes andgrabs the ones that are closest
to him first.
So he grabs the first one righthere bucket this one bucket,
this one bucket.
The other kid ran all the wayto the end, got that hardest
ball first.
He ran all the way to the end,got that one ran back, ran all
the way to the end got that one,brought that one.
(45:37):
Ran back, ran all the way tothe end got that one, brought
that one back.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
And on the surface, and they reversed so then, he
was getting the closer balls andthe other kid had to get the
farther balls Exactly.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Exactly Because he chose to do the harder thing
first, so that kid who startedoff doing the easy things.
The task got harder and harderand harder for him, because he
had to keep running further,whereas the other kid got the
hard work out of the way firstand then he just ended up
working his way back to where hegot, to that last ball.
It was just boom straight inthe bucket and he ended up
(46:12):
timing a little bit faster thanthe other kid.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Interesting.
That's pretty cool.
You know, I was thinking aboutiq and there's two forms of iq.
There's crystallized iq andthere's fluid iq.
Okay, and your crystallized iqis things that you've learned,
uh, specifically, and memorizedfor studies.
You know, like dates in historyor like you know this specific
(46:40):
uh equation for this specificpattern, and it's things that
you've just stored up in yourbrain over a span of time.
But they might not translate,um, if you hadn't memorized them
.
Like, uh, let's say, um, you're, you're adapted to writing
(47:00):
really well in English.
Well, you test kids fromanother country that don't speak
English.
They're not going to pass thatIQ test because they don't know
the language.
They're not adapted to thatspecific scenario.
But fluid IQ Fluid IQ isadaptable.
It's your adaptability todifferent scenarios and you can
(47:22):
test fluid IQ anywhere, with anyage, at any time.
It's just pattern recognitionand so your crystallized IQ is
all dependent on your level ofeducation and how much you've
memorized.
Level of education and how muchyou've memorized and your
(47:43):
crystallized iq.
You can improve across time,but your fluid iq is ingrained
in you.
Your fluid iq never increases.
It only decreases as you ageokay, or I I don't know if
that's 100 true, like maybe youcan try to exercise your, your
fluid iq, but generally that'ssomething that we're born with.
(48:07):
Like some people are naturallybetter at pattern recognition
and fluid iq than others.
Like it's just the hand you'redealt with.
Some people are just smarter tosome extent, but it's a
different type of smart becauseyou know you could have learned
a lot of stuff in school andhave a lot more crystallized cue
(48:29):
than this guy.
But if this guy had the sameopportunity that you had, he
would be heavy.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
So let's think about that in terms of character too,
because say you go into you, sayyou you go to a different
country and they have differentrules, different norm, norms,
different lore, different thingsthat you got to learn.
But say you're adaptable andsay you have the will to learn
(48:57):
and you know how to pick upthings from around you and you
know how to recognize patternsand so you can go into this
completely different place.
Be someone who is open tolearning, be someone who has
that curiosity and say actuallywe're.
Oh my God.
My wife and I were watching thismovie Touch.
(49:18):
I don't know if you guys haveseen that one.
It's about this Icelandic guywho lived in London and he met
this Japanese girl who he fellin love with and he, he starts
working at this Japaneserestaurant and he learns
Japanese Like he knows noJapanese going in, he just
suddenly got a wild hair up hisbutt to go, you know, to go and
(49:46):
work at this Japanese restaurantand ends up meeting this woman
and, you know, while he's therehe's learning the language, he's
learning the customs, he'swriting haikus and stuff like
that, you know, like that youknow so he's able to integrate
himself into that environment bybeing adaptable, by being
curious, and you know that, thatconfidence in that that will to
(50:08):
learn yeah, and I'd say thatguy is more of a self-master
than a guy who might have thesame skill, but he was just born
in that environment, right?
Speaker 1 (50:17):
yeah, you could take that other guy, that second guy,
and put him somewhere else.
Would he be able to adapt asquickly?
Not likely, it'd be tough.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Well, if he had the desire to meet some girl, maybe.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
Right?
I think so.
The things we do for a living,that's right.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Dude learn Japanese Straight up, Straight up learn
Japanese right.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
That takes us back to that idea of the lover being
like the fuel Right, like thepassion drives you, puts you on
the path and gives you energy toget towards the goal.
And so if you can orient thepassion with the goal in mind,
you're unstoppable.
Oh man you're a force ifthey're pulling in opposite
(51:05):
directions, then you've got anissue right yeah, yeah, you
gotta gotta bring those twotogether you know the sword in
the rose man yeah, all right.
I mean, is there any, uh anyother pieces of self-mastery
that you guys kind of want todive into?
Speaker 2 (51:24):
You know I think it's the if we're going to the last
piece, the unfolding over timeand the vision of who you could
be.
Say you are who you are rightnow, but you are also who you
could be.
And say you are who you areright now, but you are also who
you could be in the future.
And say that version isinvisible to people around you,
(51:46):
unless you have someone who'sperceptive to your potential,
someone who has that insightinto who you could be.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
But I would go as far as to say who you ought to be,
because who you could be couldbe a bad thing.
You could be a drug addict.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
No, good point, no good point.
Ok, let's say the the even moreevolved version of yourself,
right?
So people around you who don'thave that same vision that you
have, they would probably haveto Well, I know they would have
to continually learn newversions of you as you're
unfolding.
(52:22):
So either they would have to dothat or you would have to.
You know, bring in a new circlewho does match well with these
continually evolving versionsthat you are, versions that you
(52:43):
are.
So where does it can be to say,sometimes the people who have,
who have met you most?
recently know you better thanthe people who knew you
previously and have seen wellbut not really, uh, paid
attention to, or acknowledged orunderstood your evolution over
time.
It can be, it can be completelyinvisible.
Then they can think of you asthat same exact person when
you're like no man, I'm like,I'm me.
(53:05):
Now like I yeah, of course Igrew, you know.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Of course I hope I would have changed over so many
years, you know I like to saychange is inevitable, but either
you take an activeparticipation in how you change
or you let what happens happensbut no matter what you've got to
change.
So are you going to change in apositive direction and put the
(53:30):
work in, or are you going tosubmit to chaos and hope for the
?
Speaker 2 (53:37):
best you know.
You know when this is a greatthought experiment I like to go
to is because I've had to let alot of things go over my life
and I've had to make a lot ofevolutions, right, and I can
look back at that and say thereused to be a time where this was
true.
And the fact that it's nolonger true and it never has
(54:00):
been true since, right, it'slike I used to be a smoker, from
you know, 18 to 30 years old,more on than off, and I tried to
quit multiple times.
I got to that one point whereI'm like, damn it, no, I'm done,
you know, and I finally, Ithank you I finally hit that
point where I could, where Icould, make that breakthrough
(54:22):
right.
It's like I can look.
I can look back at that, I canlook back at at multiple things.
Be like you know what.
That used to be true.
That's not true anymore.
I evolved right and so when I'mfacing a challenge like that
now, having that experience, Ican say you know what?
It's only a matter of time.
It's only a matter of time.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
until that shit changes, I would almost say
that's kind of the function ofconsciousness.
We already kind of talked aboutconsciousness before, but going
back to that whole conversation, it's like an aiming mechanism,
right.
And it's not just an aimingmechanism, it's a recognition
mechanism.
So you're taking in and thenyou're putting out, but it's
(55:05):
communal with your environment.
It's the environment informswho you are and you inform what
your environment is, and sothere's a give and take right,
give and take right.
(55:25):
And so with our consciousnesswe're supposed to, we're
supposed to recognize what weneed to change in our
environment and try toeffectively change it, but we're
also supposed to recognize whatwe can't change and allow grace
for things to happen.
It's true, can't controleverything.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
If only Ultimate power.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
What do you think we're trying to do with this
podcast?
I don't know same thing we doevery day, trying to take it a
little, we're trying to dealwith this podcast for good, for
good, good, good, okay.
So so, chris, you got adefinition for self-mastery for
(56:19):
us Jesus.
Speaker 3 (56:24):
Talking about all that theory versus practicality,
I liked the idea of acceptingsuffering for the sake of
discipline.
To the end of functionalfitness, okay, okay, to the end
of functional fitness, okay.
I had this whole idea aboutoccupying space that we didn't
(56:45):
get to, but that's okay.
Speaker 1 (56:50):
All right.
Well, with that, I think thishas been a pretty productive
podcast, so let's call it thereAll right.
Thank you everyone for takingthe time to listen.
If you made it this far, let'scall it there All right.
Thank you everyone for takingthe time to listen.
If you made it this far, wereally appreciate it and we hope
that you'll join us next time.
Please like, comment, share,subscribe or whatever you can do
(57:10):
to support us, and we hope tosee you next time.
Can't wait.
It's been real All right.
Speaker 2 (57:16):
Thanks you guys, and enjoy.
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