Episode 6 - The Four Archetypes

Unlock the secrets to living a balanced and fulfilling life with Angelo, Chris and Matt, as we explore the compelling world of archetypes. Our latest episode walks you through the essential traits of the four primary archetypes—Warrior, Lover, Magician, and Sovereign—as defined in Moore and Gillette's groundbreaking book, "King, Warrior, Magician, Lover." Learn how the Warrior's discipline, the Lover's appreciation of beauty, the Magician's wisdom, and the Sovereign's sense of order are crucial for achieving harmony in your personal and professional life.

Discover how archetypes influence personal growth and relationships, as Matt shares insightful strategies for harnessing the Magician's wisdom to navigate life's challenges and the Sovereign's ability to underpin other archetypes with a sense of order and generativity. We'll also delve into the symbolic significance of Norse runes in relation to abundance and generative principles, and explore the overlapping dynamics between masculine and feminine archetypes. The episode gets even more intriguing as we uncover the shadow sides of these energies, revealing how imbalances can manifest in destructive behaviors and offering the keys to nurturing a balanced self.

Finally, we spotlight the power of archetypes in creativity and leadership, using characters like Rurouni Kenshin and Dexter Morgan to illustrate the disciplined nature of the Warrior archetype. Matt, Chris and Angelo discuss how balancing personal and collective growth can strengthen both your home foundation and broader societal impact. Learn about the importance of organizational partners in turning creative ideas into reality, and how mythological elements like Odin's ravens and wolves can offer profound insights into the balance between thought, memory, greed, and hunger. This episode is packed with wisdom and practical advice to help you harness archetypal energies for a richer, more harmonious life.

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Episode Transcript

Angelo (00:00):
Hello everyone, welcome to the Telos Initiative podcast.
I'm Angelo Cole, I'm ChrisVigil and I'm Matt Maes.
Today we are going to betalking about a particular topic
that Matt is somewhatinterested in and I'm not so
privy to.
It's the four archetypes.

(00:22):
Matt, do you mind giving alittle bit of, maybe an
introduction to, what makesthese four archetypes so special
?

Matt (00:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I have to say I've beenblessed to be with a partner who
has really introduced me tothis concept and I've been able
to go into it in my own men'swork journey and it's just been
a deepening uh, deepeningdynamics for me and I've, you
know, really found them inmultiple different dimensions in

(00:54):
my life and it's really openedup a lot of self-awareness for
myself, like how I see myselfand how I, how I see others, how
I'm to relate to others.
But in a nutshell, the termarchetypes really comes from
Carl Jung's work originally, andthen specifically the four

(01:16):
archetypes were really fleshedout by Moore and Gillette's book
.
Was I forget the word of thearchetype, the order of the
archetypes in the book, likelover, magician, sovereign
warrior, something likesomething like that?

Angelo (01:34):
okay, right and you said that's more in gillette, more
and gillette, yeah, more.

Chris (01:39):
And so, Robert Moore m-o-o-R-E and Douglas Gillette.
Yes, thank you, and the book is.
King Warrior, magician Lover.

Matt (01:49):
King, warrior, magician, lover.
Okay, Interesting, awesome,thank you.

Angelo (01:54):
This will be a new topic for me.
I honestly don't know too muchabout it.
I've heard a few things thatMatt's brought up before in
conversations of the past, butas far as really the power of
what these archetypes have andwhat they can do for you, I'm

(02:16):
really interested in hearingwhat you have to say about that.

Matt (02:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so to give an overview, areally simplistic way, a primer,
of how to think about thearchetypes, so there are four,
and so the reason why I can'tremember the order of the titles
of the books is because I, well, we can think of them in terms
of the directions, right, sothat's how, like, literally in
my mind, I think of them interms of the.

(02:42):
In terms of the directions,right, so that's how, in like,
literally, in my mind, I thinkof them that way, right, so the
warrior is the south andrepresents the well, it's the
go-getter energy, and it's alsoboundaries.
It's also like when someonecrosses a boundary that you have

(03:03):
, then you know the tendency forsomeone would be to to get
defensive or to be, you know,anger is an indicator that
something important to you hasbeen overstepped Right.
So, typically, when someone isdefensive or feeling like you
know, in that fight or flightthing or two people or or more
people are in conflict, it'susually because one or more of

(03:26):
those people has at least feltdisrespected in some way, like
some you know something has beencrossed.
Um, you know, a perceivedslight has occurred, right?
So that's where the warriorenergy comes out and it's like,
hey, you know, I'm defendingwhat is important to me, right?
a boundary the boundary, yeah,um, but it's in terms of even

(03:51):
beyond boundaries, it really, itreally is the force of going
out and doing the thing like thewarrior.
Is action right, okay, okay.
So then we have to.
The east is the lover.
Now, the lover is concernedwith, well, in terms of
self-love and love for others,and also the aesthetic

(04:15):
connection with things, right.
So it's the part of you that isrejuvenating, the part that
appreciates beauty, the partthat, well, I mean, lights
things up for you.
You know, it gives that senseof vibrance in the world, right,
and to the west, you have themagician.

(04:38):
Now, the magician represents themind, it represents our ability
to analyze things, to conceivethings, um, really to imagine,
and it is also the seat ofwisdom you know, when, when
centered, the magicianrepresents, uh, wisdom, or being

(05:00):
able to, to be in touch withwisdom, and the sovereign, which
is another name for the king orqueen, is the part that is well
.
It represents order, itrepresents bringing.
I love this.
My first men's work teachershared this with me.

(05:24):
It invites all parts to thetable, so it invites the
magician, the lover, the warriorand connects all of them
together.
And one of its best qualities,I think its prime quality, is
it's that sense of who you are.
It's that sense of Identity.

(05:44):
Well, it's yeah.
Identity, your idea well it'syeah, like your uniqueness, your
unique brilliance, like what is, like what's special about you
and the, the impact that you putinto the world, the influence
that you have in the world,right, and much like, Much like.
Each one of them are individual, but by themselves they can get

(06:08):
lost, right?
So the magician without the youknow we'll go more into this,
I'm sure, in our talk but themagician without the softness of
the lover can become callousand intense and very cynical and
dry and bitter and, by theopposite token, it can get its

(06:37):
head stuck in the sand and indenial and not properly
regarding things that it needsto pay attention to and could
use that warrior energy toactivate it and to kind of kick
its butt a little bit, frankly,and bring it back to center,

(06:58):
right.
So if you ever experience thatand it seems like you're dealing
with an intense person who youknow, oh, this person seems like
you're dealing with an intenseperson who you know, oh, this
person's mean or strict orwhatever they're, uh, my guess
is they're probably just tryingto make you aware, you know,
trying to make you aware, andit's like that's, that's the way
to kind of break through is, isthat intent?

(07:20):
You know somewhat intenseenergy of the warrior.
So it's actually a reallyreasonable thing a lot of the
times.
So yeah, in an overview, that'show to think about the
archetypes, and they each havedifferent poles too, so I'll
share more of this as we go in.

(07:41):
But they have the inflated andthe deflated sides to each of
them, which manifest indifferent ways, and typically
someone doesn't have just justan overinflation or an over, you
know, a deflation in one side.
It's usually more like apendulum, Like one is an

(08:04):
expression of, or I was about tosay, one is an expression of
the other.
Well, one is a pull of theothers.
But basically you're out ofbalance, you know, and we can
all get out of balance indifferent ways.
But you know that's whereshadow work comes in and that's
where we're, you know we're ableto analyze and work with these

(08:24):
parts of ourselves okay thatthat makes me wonder, um, is
there a tendency to lean towardsone or more of these, uh,
particular archetypes for eachindividual?

Angelo (08:39):
like, would you sort of, is there like a sort of test
where you're like, hmm, I testmore towards the warrior because
, uh, I have the tendency to, um, maybe act before I think, or,
uh, you know so each of thesefour archetypes the uh, king,

(09:00):
warrior, magician and the loverhas a good and healthy
expression of itself, but alsohas a dark inverse which can
also be expressed.

Chris (09:10):
Now I think you can lean towards one of those.
Um, I think, ideally you havethe culmination of all four of
those things in the fatherarchetype archetype.

(09:30):
Um, interesting, yeah.
So when I I actually listened toan interview by more in
gillette, as someone hadrecorded and I think it was
robert moore, said that thecatholic priest is the christian
version of the magician okay soI think if a person has a
tendency, if you're a christianperson or a catholic person and
you have a tendency towardsthinking you might be a priest,

(09:51):
right, that is like the, theforefronted archetype of the
magician expressing itself inyour life.
Other people might be like ascientist or social justice or
not, warrior, but I mean, youknow, that's the idea just

(10:12):
someone who's um, who's like abig mover, a social mover okay,
maybe a businessman or could be.
Yeah, I think I think when you,when you get down to the skill
types that you have, like youknow, you might have an affinity
towards business or philosophyor law or science that's your

(10:35):
weapon of choice and what youchoose to do with that being a
go-getter and establishingboundaries with your skills and
what you're going to channelthat energy towards, that is the
warrior energy, okay, I almostfeel like I see um a hint of
that trinity that we talkedabout earlier, where there's um

(10:56):
a feeling and a thinking in thelover and the doer, and then
there's a I mean the lover andthe magician, and then there's a
doing in the uh, warrior, so,and then you mentioned the king
is sort of the uniting principleamongst those.

Matt (11:11):
Yeah, like that would be three, I would say being okay
the sovereign is.
It's not you're, you're reallyonto it.
Like the sovereign would bebeing.
The magician is thinking, thelover is feeling and the warrior
is is doing.
Okay, yeah.
And and to your questionearlier too about how someone

(11:34):
can express in differentarchetypes, I think we we can
have our basic stock, saypersonalities or psychologies or
, you know, tendencies, but thenthese things also get affected
throughout life, right?
so like the magician has thisspecial capacity.
I've heard this named one oftwo things either the safety

(11:57):
officer or the oh, what was the?
What's the other one?
Anyway, what that one does isit's looking well.
It's really because it's it'sthe conceiving Right that helps

(12:29):
you to stay safe, right?
So say, someone grew up with anabusive father, alcoholic
parent or something like that.
You know, then, what, like whatways did you conceive, say at a
young age, that helps you tonavigate around that?

(12:49):
Did you figure like, oh, I haveto be out of the house when
this person comes home, or Ihave to hide away in my room or
do all these things, or createthese psychological mechanisms
to help me to deal with what'sgoing on around me, you know.
So those can be current to thattime and sometimes they're

(13:12):
relevant, and the magician canlook out for times in your life
where that may also be relevant,you know, because that may not
be the only time where thosecoping mechanisms can come into
play, right.

Angelo (13:25):
Right.

Matt (13:26):
But where that can run into trouble is when you are in
a place in your life where thosecoping mechanisms are no longer
relevant and those end upplaying out.
You end up seeing illusionsthat you think are hints of
those real situations thathappened in the past.

(13:46):
But you have to go back and youhave to kind of go in the onion
skin of undoing those things orlearning new things.
And one of the capacities ofthe magician is it'll reveal
what you're ready for at thattime.

(14:08):
Because if you're just to breakyour whole, entire mind open,
then that could be, frankly, bea lot, you know.

Chris (14:19):
I think if you're able to channel the magician energy
which is the priest energy,right, that's going to afford
you wisdom in situations andalso insight.
But you're right, I mean, youknow when, when more and
gillette wrote their book.
You know just to.
I mean, just to reframe alittle bit.
Um, I was really excited forthis talk because I think, if we
play our cards right, what wemight end up doing is just doing

(14:43):
a deep dive into each of thesearchetypes, because they're
really powerful ideas and Ithink it's important to speak,
that we allow these energies andthese archetypes to speak to
our society and culture, whichneeds powerful men, you know, to
help, just to help.
I mean, that's the whole point,or one of their points was to

(15:06):
become good men to serve thepeople around you okay, which
brings me to a question is thisgeared more towards, uh,
masculinity, or is there afeminine component to it?
well, moran gillette recommendedanother book entitled a goddess

(15:27):
and every woman.
That was meant to speak morespecifically to women and the
feminine energies, and I did, Imean actually ran across a copy
of that at a used bookstorerecently.
I should have picked it up.

Matt (15:45):
We may have to dive back into that one, that's a whole
other layer too Right.

Angelo (15:54):
Does it map feminine characteristics onto the same
archetypes or does it come upwith new archetypes for the
figure.

Chris (16:00):
I think they come up with different archetypes with
different characteristics.
But you know, I feel like I'msort of a midpoint in this kind
of situation.
I mean, my parents weredivorced but I relied really
heavily on my mom and myrelationship with my mom and she

(16:24):
kind of served both functionsas mother and protector okay and
, um, that was really importantto me, uh.
So I mean, there were, therewere things that I read about
the king archetype, um, when Iwas reviewing for this podcast
episode, that I recognized mymom.

(16:44):
You know, she did those things.

Angelo (16:48):
I do want to touch more on the king, because I think
that one to me seems like maybethe hardest one to kind of get a
grip on, because the other onesseem very focused in one aspect
of something.
But this king is almost like auniting amongst all three.

Chris (17:10):
well, the king underlies all of the other archetypes,
because what the king energy isdoing, literally, it's
generating order and it'sgenerating fertility and
blessing by the power of itsenergy and it's living through
you Like potential as well.
Well, it's all potential untilit's actualized, right?

Matt (17:36):
So when I say it generates , it's actualizing order and
fertility and blessing in yourlife order and fertility and
blessing in your life and say wecan then go into the different
roles that that might serve,like like, let's say, let's take
the archetypal system and sayyou have, you know, the king and

(17:57):
queen of a house, right?
So say one, is you very focusedon nurturing, very focused on,
you know, maintaining theflourish and all those?
And then you have thegenerating principle, you know,
which allow, and I love, I'mgoing to, I'm going to dip into,

(18:20):
I'm going to dip into a runereference here, which don't even
get me frigging started onrunes, you know, but I'll go
into this real quick.
So, for those who aren'tfamiliar with runes, they're not
only an alphabet but they alsorepresent different qualities,
right From Norse alphabet, right?

(18:43):
So you have fehu represents well, not only wealth but abundance,
right, and growth, right, andjust recently learned about this
, like you know, thisrelationship between pairing
different, uh, different runes,like different ones working
together.
So the next one would be urus.
Right now, urus is like the, itis like the generating

(19:08):
principle I think about, like ifyou have the soil and what
grows out of the soil, so urusis like what allows the things
there to grow, right?

Chris (19:22):
so it's like the rain that comes down.

Matt (19:23):
In fact, if you look at the symbol, you know it's the
prongs pointed downwards towardsthe ground, right?
So if you think about theground and then you think about
what comes down, like the raincomes down and makes it possible
for the growth to occur, right?
Same with the sun, the sun's,you know what comes through the

(19:44):
sunlight that comes down toearth, that allows that growth
to occur.
So there's a dynamicrelationship between both of
those things that are being inour capacity and feeling worthy,

(20:08):
in our capacity to performthese different functions,
whichever one may, which one maybe right for you, which one
well and may.
Work in those dynamics, saywithin, you know, within a
household.
Work in those dynamics, saywithin, you know, within a
household, then that is reallytied to your sense of impact and

(20:29):
influence.
And you know importance.
And when I use that wordworthiness, that's uh.
So each one of these archetypescan have a core wound as well
that when it's damaged, then youknow that's where, again,
shadow work comes in, going inand dealing with whatever that
is, and you know so for, so, forthe sovereign, it would be

(20:53):
worthiness, you know okay so you, you would treat these
similarly to like maybesomething like the chakras where
you have one that can bewounded.

Angelo (21:05):
You have like all of these in you and you can focus
on one aspect that's maybe weakor not getting enough attention,
definitely, and channel energyinto that Right and they are all
meant to work together.

Chris (21:22):
So what I think Matt was talking about and correct me if
I'm wrong, but you're talkingabout channeling that king
energy into the other archetypesas needed and necessary, which
is great, but also that the kingarchetype himself has to
overcome a darkness, and thatdarkness tends to be in the
image of unworthiness of oneself.

(21:43):
Image of unworthiness ofoneself.
But yeah, the other archetypesalso live inside your psyche,
your spirit, your soul, yourmind, and they each have a wound
that they need to.
You can't get rid of anarchetype.
You have to live with all ofthem inside of you.
You just need to focus on oneto try to heal each one

(22:03):
individually, and some arestronger than others, some are
not okay I think you know moreand gillette wrote their book in
that order, king warrior,magician, lover.
because the first thing that youhave to do is establish the
power of the king, becausewithout generating order and
generating fertility andblessing for your life, you're

(22:26):
dead in the water for everythingelse, gotcha.
So your first thing is toestablish good moral character
by adhering, by finding andadhering to a set of good
principles.

Matt (22:39):
Wow, I love that you said that too, because, going to the
relationship between thedifferent archetypes, so let's
say specifically, the king andthe sovereign and the warrior,
right?
So if the warrior is just goingaround and fighting but doesn't
know what it's fighting for andsay it's getting occupied with

(23:03):
defending the boundaries andjust meaninglessly pursuing
different things, right, but itdoesn't have a code, it doesn't
have an order, a thing to fightfor, then it can get lost.
And you know, talking about thedifferent poles, the inflated
pole would be the sadist.

(23:24):
That would be one name for it,right?
So one that is like cruel toothers, a cruel, you know doing
cruel things to other people.

Angelo (23:33):
And that's the inverse of the warrior.

Matt (23:35):
Yeah, so that would be the inflated of the warrior and the
deflated would be the masochist.

Chris (23:43):
Right so it would be the self-inflicting.

Matt (23:44):
So it would be the self-inflicting, it would be the
self-damaging and again tied tothat sense of worthiness.
So what can get affected in onedoesn't just stay in that one.
So that's where I would say theanalogy of the chakras you're

(24:06):
on the right track.
But it also affects the otherones too.
So the unworthiness in thesovereign can also bleed into
the different archetypes.
Right, if you are, if you'redestroying yourself, if you're

(24:28):
masochistic towards yourself,then that's, that's that sense
of not worthiness playing out.
I mean, it's literally like you,like you're saying, like I'm
not, you know I'm so, I'm sounworthy I might as well destroy
a be self-destructive.
You know, like I'm a blight onthe uh space that I'm, I'm
living and, by the way, that'sone of the qualities of the
warrior as well is the capacityto take up space you know to say

(24:51):
like this you know, theboundary thing is not just like
personal boundaries, it's likeyou know, this, this space that
I occupy, the this you know, ina sense, that the space that I
can move around in and pushthings in and influence reality,
nice.

Angelo (25:12):
So what would be the uh?
I keep wanting, wanting to callit the inverse, but you called
it the uh.
What did you call it the?

Matt (25:22):
The shadow form, the shadow form yeah, the shadow.

Angelo (25:25):
What would be the shadow form of, like the magician and
the lover.

Matt (25:30):
So for the magician, well, so I'll go into the key
emotions, right?
So the key emotion for themagician is fear, and it's for a
very good reason, you know,again, like to the the safety,
uh, we'll call it safety officer, right?

(25:50):
Um, it's looking out, it'slooking out for what, you know,
what is good for this personthat is myself.
Like, let's like, what is youknow, how can I protect this
person, how can I scan andnavigate and, yeah, yeah, like

(26:11):
work my way around around theworld, right?
So, um, so, yeah, the, theinflated of that would be, let's
say like, I would say likecynic, the cynic.
I think that's a good name forit, right?
Well, if I may, there areversions of different names that

(26:31):
I've learned Go ahead.

Chris (26:33):
So the Magician has Wisdom and Insight and the
Shadow version also has Wisdomand Insight.
It's just using it for a darkerpurpose.
Morin Gillette calls it theTrickster.
You could just using it for adarker purpose.
Morin Gillette calls it thetrickster.
You could just call it themanipulator Using power for
nefarious purposes.

Angelo (26:52):
Exactly yes.

Matt (26:54):
Yes.
Oh and that Go ahead.

Chris (26:58):
The lover, I would say, is so the king energy?
The king is aboutresponsibility.
So when it overlays over thelover, you have responsible like
loving or responsible likesensual experience, experience.

(27:23):
And if you don't have thatsovereign overlaying your
sensual experiences, you becomea hedonist.
That would be the inverse ofthe lover.
That's the unhealthy version ofthe lover the inflated,
unhealthy version right yes theaddict right the addict yes, yes

(27:44):
, and so the deflated.

Matt (27:48):
the deflated side of that.
Yes, the addict, right, theaddict.
Yes, yes, and so the deflatedside of that.
What would we call this?

Chris (27:56):
Well, it's the one that the impotent lover is what they
more or less call it Impotent,yeah.

Matt (27:59):
Yeah, no, that makes sense .
So the one that you can't feelthe sensation of love, you can't
feel the, you can't, you can'treally even.
I mean you feel it feels gray,it feels kind of lifeless, you
know, it feels kind of blank andyou don't really get excited by
anything and yeah, that'sreally it.

(28:23):
I mean it's like the kind ofbarren ground right where if we
think about the ideal center ofthe lover.
It's like the flourishing garden, you know.
It's like the flourishing, it'slike you know.
Actually, the Garden of Edenwould be an excellent archetype
for the lover's domain.

Angelo (28:41):
Right, and we talked about a garden being a perfect
balance between nature andculture or nature and man,
because a garden is necessarilytended to, it has a gardener.
No gardener means the gardengrows wild and no nature, or too

(29:06):
much gardening, you could say,means the garden will be, uh,
not reaching its full potentialin life.
It will be withering.

Chris (29:16):
Yeah yeah, kind of kind of barren.
Maybe if you burn too muchright too much um, okay, that
makes sense.

Angelo (29:26):
I feel like I noticed there's a sort of relationship,
a special relationship betweenthe lover and the magician.
Specifically In the beginningyou mentioned a relation to East
and West, so I almost feel likemaybe there's a dual

(29:47):
relationship between the loverand the magician, and then also
the, the sovereign and thewarrior yeah, definitely, and so
so I'd like to lead with thistoo.

Matt (30:00):
Is that there are um tension opposites, right?
So you have the warrior and thelover, so those, those are
tension opposites oh, it's thewarrior and the lover the war?
yeah, no, but but there is arelationship.
Well, I'll talk, I'll speak therelationship between the
magician and the lover as well,right, but, um, you know, the

(30:20):
warrior is very, let's say,fastidious, very, is that the
right word?
Like it's very much about, likethe seriousness and going about
, you know, seriously committingto action and seriously
committing to to doing a thingright, where sometimes the lover
, well, let's say like theshadow, you know, lover's shadow

(30:41):
, this could even say theimpotent, right be like, oh, but
I don't wanna.
Oh, it's crazy, you know, Iwant to enjoy the roses yeah
yeah, which is great, but alittle you know too much of that
.
It's like you gotta, you gotta,get going with it, you know.
But, um, but when?
When those two can worktogether too, when you can do

(31:01):
your work joyfully, like youknow.
Here's an excellent example ifyou're doing, say, household
things that normally you're likeI don't want to do the dishes
or whatever I don't want to, butyou know, but you're like
whistling and you're, you know,you, normally you're like I
don't want to do the dishes orwhatever I don't want to, but
you know, but you're likewhistling and you're, you know,
you're, you're singing whileyou're working.
That makes it joyful, thatbrings a levity to what you're

(31:22):
doing, right, but you had tosynthesize that relationship
between those two in order torealize that, right.
So the other tension oppositeis the magician and the
sovereign, right, okay.
So the reason for that is well,you know, the sovereign is the
ordering one.
Well, it also representsleadership, right.

(31:43):
So leadership for yourself,also leadership of others, and
that can also mean, well, notjust like telling other people
what to do, but it's like, youknow, influence, and you could
even say the people learningfrom, learning from your example
.
Like, say, you just being anexemplary person, you being an

(32:07):
example of a leaderly person,people see that be like, oh,
like wow.
I admire that person.
You know, I want to be likethat, so this, this can happen
automatically for you as you asyou are that person, as you, as
you move through the world andpeople, just, you know, people
seem to gravitate towards you.
People seem to ask for youradvice.

(32:28):
People seem to you know, want,you know you have a great, you
have a great connection between,say, your kingdom and other
people's kingdoms, right?
So the magician, you know,prides itself on being able to
think of things, to conceive ofthings, to organize and figure

(32:52):
things out.
Honestly, without the magician,it's indispensable.
I mean, it's really in aposition where you can't really
work without it.
I mean you can't really workwithout any of them, but it's
like you'd be totally blind.

Angelo (33:09):
Would it be fair to say the magician makes the map?

Matt (33:21):
Maybe, yes, totally blind.
Would it be fair to say themagician makes the map?
Maybe, yeah, it, yes, I, Ithink I would.
I would go so far as to say itit is, yeah, maps things out.
Well, okay, let's put it thisway.
So, so, as the warrior, you'regoing out and you're exploring
and you were, you know chart,you could say charting the land,
like you don't even know whatyou don't know, until you go out
and you pursue knowledge, oryou pursue right, exploration,
things like that.
Then, as you're going around,then you know, as the magician,

(33:45):
you're noticing things, you'reputting things together and you
were, okay, let's say, drawingthe map.
Right, it's like, let's say,putting, putting the map
together as you discover things,right.
So so where the magician andthe and the sovereign can get
into trouble, right, is becausethe magician can think well, I'm

(34:07):
so smart, why aren't I incharge?
I'm so smart, why aren't I incharge you?

Angelo (34:13):
know like I'm so powerful, Like it can go.

Matt (34:15):
I'm like it's going to go like.
I'm so powerful, I know allthese.
I know all these things right.
I'm indispensable.
Why am I not the one sitting onthe seat?

Chris (34:24):
Dang it, that's.
That's exactly what happened tome, actually.
There you go.

Matt (34:35):
There, actually, right there you go, there you go and
it's honestly it's a good, it'sit's a good, it's a very good
question to ask right, yeahright, but it in itself is not
um.
The magician does not representmorality, it does not in itself
represent order.
Hold on, Let me finish.
So you can be a super.

(34:57):
I promise I'll get you a second.
But you can be an incrediblysmart person, you can be an
incredibly intelligent person,but not have a code, not have an
order or a vision or a telosRight A telos, no a telos.
You could even say that thesovereign represents that

(35:20):
purpose and that vision.
That's the direction, that'swhat it's all about.
Say like helps the sovereign torealize that Helps the
sovereign to, ideally, to paintthat mental picture and to be

(35:41):
able to put it together andarticulate it.
But you know, it in itself isnot the one that's bestowed with
the purpose, that's bestowedwith the purpose.
So that's for the sovereign tohold and to for the you really
put it beautifully for themagician to draw the map right.

(36:02):
And the lover sees that visionand goes like, oh my God, like
lights up, you know, feels thebeauty of that vision.
And then, of course, thewarrior is the one that goes out
and executes the action to makeit happen.

Angelo (36:18):
Gotcha.

Matt (36:20):
Okay.

Angelo (36:20):
Okay.

Chris (36:21):
Great, that's fantastic, okay, okay.

Angelo (36:25):
All right, so, hmm, so you do you still hold to the the
idea that the warrior isrepresentative of the south?
Because I almost feel like themagician would be at the south
then, because that puts him kindof opposed to the north

(36:45):
pointing sovereign right, oh, Isee, I see what you're doing
with the, with the tensionopposites there.
Yeah, the tension opposite sortof thing.
But I mean, I'm new to this.

Matt (37:00):
Well, here's another one too.
They can also representdifferent elements, oh there you
go.

Angelo (37:07):
Let me guess.
Let me guess.
So lover has got to be fire,Right, maybe Passion.
Okay wait, lover or no,warrior's got to be fire.
There you go.
Warrior's got to be fire,magician's probably water.
Ah see, it's tricky.

(37:30):
Okay, fine, the sovereign hasgot to be.
That's tricky.
Okay fine, the, the sovereignis gotta be that's tricky too,
because he could be I think Igot it air negative.

Matt (37:45):
Uh well, interesting, interesting guess, okay.
Oh, you got it right with thisone, right with this one, okay
so okay, so this one is allall right, just tell me good
guesses though good guesses,though I could actually see the
logic in your guesses.
Um and so for the sovereign.

(38:07):
I've heard this.
I've heard this two ways, andI'll tell you first the first
one.
By the way, there's anotherbook on the archetypes, by
gentleman rod boothroyd, andthat's who what?
That's the one that I studiedfrom in my uh, my men's work
program right so he proposedthat the sovereign represents

(38:29):
fire, but my teacher, though,put forth a very good, very good
reasoning he thinks that thesovereign represents fire.
Okay, but my teacher, though,put forth a very good reasoning
he thinks that the sovereignactually represents earth.
Oh Right, and I'll tell you whythat makes sense.
It's because it's foundational,right?

Angelo (38:49):
Because it's Right, that's what I was thinking when.
I was going to put thesovereign either as earth or as
air, because air is the sort oflike high in the sky.
Traditionally, wind and air isthe foundation of the soul and
where spirit is because, it'sinvisible foundation of the soul

(39:15):
and where spirit is.
Because it's invisible and a lotof times when you talk about
top-down things, a top-downrelationship like you would have
with a king, you would put theking up at the top, which, uh,
was my thinking there.
But I can definitely see howearth being foundational and
being the source of potential,where things come out of and

(39:35):
where things grow, that has tobe the sovereign I'm still like
fire is passionate love man well, I get it.

Matt (39:48):
You're right, it could also be the warrior.
You know what you're making methink of?
Is that, um, that statementwhich is it's kind of a
dichotomy like I'm a lover, I'mnot a fighter, but how about
this about fighting and I thinkno keanu reeves actually said
this too like, if you're, ifyou're not fighting for your

(40:11):
love, what kind of love do youhave?
I heard that.
I heard that.
I'm like, ooh, keanu.

Angelo (40:15):
Damn.
You even said it, like Keanu.

Matt (40:19):
But, but the warrior.
You know that's like that'spursuing, you know that's
pursuing what is important toyou.
That's defending what'simportant to you, you know.
So if you have the warrioroutside of the garden, like, I'm
gonna hold post and I'm goingto, you know, nothing is getting
in here, nothing is going toinvade this garden, I'm going to

(40:39):
defend it, you know.
And you bring that fire, youcan bring that fiery energy into
your love, right?
Yes, so that?
So the you know, the lover, um,represents the emotions too,
represents your you know which.
Again, okay, I promised I wouldtalk about the lover and the

(41:03):
magician, right, which, by theway, the magician is the heir
right.
Okay, so our emotions are verygood indicators of our reality,
how we feel about things, how wefeel about situations, how we
feel about people, you know, andit's the dissolution of

(41:27):
connection between people, right, which is where you know, again
, people can often crossboundaries and not even notice
that they cross boundariesBecause they're just like, oh,
this is where I'm from, this isnot even a thing, you know, it's
like that sort of thing, but itin itself is not the one that

(41:50):
provides the answers or the theanalysis to those situations
that happen.
Like, you can have your emotionsaffected by different things,
but your emotions are notnecessarily what is um telling
you?
The full?
It doesn't have the full map ofwhat's happening in that

(42:13):
situation, right, it's not tosay that you shouldn't listen to
your emotions, because youdefinitely should and they have
their place, and you should notjust suppress them or sweep them
right to the side, like they'redefinitely telling you an
important part of the story,right, but make no mistake, you,
the magician, is the one thatis able to conceive of things,
to see, to read between thelines and to be able to see the

(42:39):
map, to see the detail.
We're going to keep going backto this map thing.
It's excellent you to seeclearly in that situation.
But even then, the magician inin of itself is not the one that
can come up with the bestorderly solutions to things.

(43:03):
And that might sound really,really confusing to you, know,
if you're like, oh I'm so smart,I should be able to come up
with solutions.
Well, you know, it could be sosmart to analyze and to
understand it but it's like thelabyrinth right.
Really.
The one that you should belistening to for solutions is
the sovereign Right.

(43:24):
The sovereign is checking inwith all these different parts
of yourself.

Angelo (43:29):
I feel like there's a simplicity with the sovereign
right.
He gets straight to the pointand the purpose and the magician
sort of elaborates on it, butwithout the Sovereign he's I
wonder if there's a relationshipbetween the word elaborate and
labyrinth.
Now that I've said it,Interesting.

Chris (43:52):
Well, we'll have to look at that, look at the etymology.

Angelo (43:55):
But that's what I was kind of thinking is with the
sovereign he elaborates andwithout the sovereign.

Chris (44:01):
So I think I I think I have a fun way that we can kind
of play with this idea of the,the idea of the, the metaphor of
the elements and the metaphorof the map.
All right, so let's think ofyourself as some kind of
creature that is able to adjustits physiology to become the

(44:26):
elements somehow.
Okay, all right.
So you're, you're thisconsciousness, you're this
creature, and you're in themiddle of a land that's
uncharted.
You're not sure whereeverything is, so you have to
build a home on a foundation,right?

Angelo (44:42):
that's the king.

Matt (44:43):
Energy that's the earth correct, okay, so let's build a
home somewhere.

Chris (44:48):
Let's choose our, uh, set of principles that we're going
to adhere to, something good,something well ordered, right,
like like some bricks maybe, andwe'll build this up.
We have a shelter now and we'rewe're here, okay, um, maybe we
have some desires, right, somethings that our hearts want.
That's the flow, that's theflow of the water, river, fresh

(45:11):
water, going about the land.
We can maybe have someexperiences with relationships,
right, food, other things peopledesire.
Maybe you have a little, maybeyou get like a sense of power
sometimes, right, and you canuse, like you can build
something to generate power outof a river, right, um, so, okay,

(45:36):
so now we have our heart, wehave our water, we have our
earth.
Um, you need water, we needsome wisdom and we need some
insight so we're able to, insome fashion right, maybe fly up
in the air a bit.
The air has oversight over theland.

Matt (45:56):
Oh, there you go, oh yeah.
Yeah, that's another thing withthe magician.
By the way, dude, that wasbeautiful.

Chris (46:01):
Sure, oh, we didn't even talk about fire yet, because
you've got to keep the fire inthe fireplace.

Matt (46:08):
If you let your fire out of the boundaries.

Chris (46:11):
Right, you have to establish your boundaries,
create your fireplace and makesure the fire stays in the
fireplace.

Matt (46:18):
Oh, god, that's yes.
Another thing about the warriorthe fire thing is excellent
because you can.
That can become so intense thatyou can end up burning other
people.

Angelo (46:32):
Yeah there you go, burning yourself, right.
That's a really great analogy.

Matt (46:36):
To have the boundaries for yourself so that you're you
know.
It's like you know.
I've seen this more and more.
It's like its own archetype ofa character stepping outside of
the wording for archetype aswe're referring to them in you
know this conversation like thefour archetypes, but but this

(46:57):
character like uh rurounikenshin, for example, right of
rurouni kenshin.
There you go, there you go likehe knows how powerful he is.
He knows like if he went crazythen he would just rip people to
shreds, right, but he knowsthat can you tell the story of
reuni kenshin for our listeners?
Oh, I just oh man you shouldhave said it yeah, that might be

(47:24):
, might be more.
Here we'll do a brief okay, well, basically, uh, okay, to give a
background, he historically wasthis awesome badass warrior
referred to as the Batosai right, yeah, so the Hitokiri Batosai

(47:44):
was a Japanese samurai assassinduring the Edo period, I think.

Chris (47:49):
If I remember correctly, is this a real person.
No, it was based on a manga.
Oh, it's um but I mean therethere were like people of these
factions that really did exist.
But this character, reunikenshin um, he gives up his, he
decides like once and for all,after the war is over, never to
kill or assassinate ever again.

(48:11):
So he holds his power inside ofhimself and he has in his
sheath the sakabato, which is areversed blade sword, so that
when he goes to strike he neverkills anybody.
If he ever has to and of coursepeople all over Japan try to
find him, hunt him down, killhim, and he faces all kinds of

(48:34):
challenges, kind of establishesa little like family in a dojo,
uh, takes on a student and theykind of are like freedom
fighters in japan.
But he never kills.
Interesting, he never breakshis like batman, he never breaks
his one rule, but yeah, so hehas that warrior energy, he has
the ultimate fire going aroundjapan and he never unleashes it

(48:58):
right, he's got, he's got a codeand he's just like I just want
to live this peaceful life.

Matt (49:04):
And he, yeah, he, I mean he has limit, he placed, he has,
I mean he has self-imposedlimits on himself.
So because if he knows like, ifhe gets to that point like he's
like I've got a long-ass fuse.

Angelo (49:26):
But if it gets to the end of that fuse then watch out.
You know, kind of reminds me ofDexter Morgan.
Dexter is that TV show of theserial killers.
He lives by a code and henecessarily has to live by the
code.
And if he ever breaks his codeor goes outside of it, all hell
breaks loose and he's just anormal serial killer, I guess.

(49:48):
Yeah, I mean he's not like aheroic serial killer, you know
what I would say the first fiveseasons.
A heroic serial killer, youknow what I would say?
I would say the first fiveseasons are pretty good.
There's only five seasons no no, there's like eight, maybe nine
, now that I think they made anew season.
That's really recent I don'tknow.

Chris (50:05):
At some point I just had to.
If you haven't seen season four.

Angelo (50:09):
you're're missing it Because that's the best season.
That's got John Lithgow.

Chris (50:14):
Lord Farquaad, I did not like that season at all.
That's the best season.

Angelo (50:19):
What are you talking about?

Chris (50:21):
Anyways, getting back to the four archetypes, analogy.

Angelo (50:25):
Where I thought you guys were going with the fire was I
thought it was going to besomething related to protection
of the boundary Thinking ifthere were wild animals, what
element would you use to wardoff those animals?

Chris (50:39):
Well, that I would call it the king generating order is
the one that establishes theboundary of your realm, your
kingdom, that you're ruling over.

Angelo (50:50):
Well, I mean mean initially in the conversation.
Matt was talking about thewarrior being the one who comes
out when a boundary is crossed.

Matt (51:01):
Sure, okay, so you could say it's the the warrior is like
the yeah you could say thewarrior is the foregoing one
when a boundary is crossed,right, so the, the sovereign is
the one that is actuallyestablishing what that order is.
Right?
So, saying, like you know,asking this question like what's

(51:22):
good for the realm, you know?
Like what's good for, like therealm is in yourself, the realm
as in you know, your familycircle, the people who are close
to you, the things that areimportant to you.
And actually I don't know ifyou've seen this movie.
There is this, really thisawesome quote, this movie I

(51:44):
think it was 10,000 BC but thereis this one moment where this
character says something reallyprofound that like, basically,
essentially, that the size, thesize of the circle that you draw
around yourself, is the size ofyour life, or the size of your
realm, or that or something likethat.
Right, so say, you know if yourcircle is like this, you know

(52:08):
if it's a really small circle,right, if that's consciously
chosen, if you're like I justwant to live a simple life and I
just want to take care of myfamily, I just want to you know
this is this is my realm.
That's an honorably chosen thing, you know.
You could say that's, and youcould even say that that's
foundational to anything elsethat you want to do outside.

(52:29):
You know you mentioned, likesocial justice people earlier.
Right, there's at the core.
I can see how there's a lot ofgood intention in that too, at
the core, I can see how there'sa lot of good intention in that
too.
But it's like that you have tobe able to also deal with the
things within your small circle,like you could want to go out
and have.
It's really natural to feel likeI feel very powerfully about

(52:54):
these things that are happeningin the world, these things that
I want to go out and I want tohave an impact.
I want to and I want to knowthat I'm meaningfully making a
difference in the world.
You know that's a really goodand pure and intentional thing,
right, and a lot, of, a lot ofum the self.
You know, sovereign, leaderlytype people can also do that,

(53:17):
and then you can also lose sightof what's right under your nose
at home, right.
And that's not to say thatthose things have to be mutually
exclusive, it's just thatthat's something that often
happens, you know.
Here's another example is, likeyou know, a lot of spiritual
leader type people and I've seenI won't name names, but I've,
you know, seen this happenwithin you know, my own life,

(53:38):
within people, people I've seenthis happen within my own life,
within people I've encounteredright when you're really good at
going out and making an impactin all these other different
places but then it looks likecrap at home.
You're not taking care of thehome space.
Right, you've got to do bothand you could even say that.

Angelo (54:01):
Perhaps that's why the Catholic Church doesn't allow
priests to get married and starta home life, because they want
them focused on the communal,yeah Right.

Matt (54:12):
But if you do that, though , like if you marry the right
person, like if you have thatpartner who supports you and all
these different things, and sayyou've got your, you've got
your interpersonal stuff figuredout, like you have, you have
really good dynamics and you'reable to, you're able to work

(54:35):
well together.
You, you know you get along.
You, you know you've got yourhome, you've got your home base
stuff covered right.
Then it's like, okay, well, youknow, we came together because
we want to do something.
We we came together, say, for a, for a really powerful
visionary purpose.
Then let's work together onwhat does that look like?

(55:00):
And then that person could endup helping you individually with
your vision.
Say, they have their own vision, you can support them in
different ways.
It can end up being like a60-40 type situation, or if
you're completely aligned in onedirection situation, or if

(55:23):
you're completely aligned in onedirection, then that makes it
really simple, because you'reliterally going the same way.
You could also have a partnerwho is deeply inspired by
whatever it is that you're doingand say supports you by, you
know, giving your, giving youspace, giving you resources,

(55:44):
introducing you to people whocan, who can push you, who can
be a buoy for you in thatdirection, right, so then this
person ends up well, and so thisis really important to.
It's a really important pointtoo, because with the sovereign,

(56:05):
there's so much this tendencyto think that that's you know,
you mentioned hierarchy likethat's the person at the top,
like, literally, like the leaderis the sovereign, there is the
sovereign.
It's just not a right way tothink.
I mean, I get it, but you canbe a supportive sovereign

(56:26):
towards somebody, and we thinkof the base, we think of the
foundation, like the platformthat you can stand on so that
you can then do your own thing,like say, that person doesn't,
it doesn't really care as muchabout being the center of the
you know the face of the face ofthe business, right, the like I

(56:49):
just love what you're doing, Ijust really want to help you in
any way that, uh, that I can,within reason right so then that
person is then helping togenerate, helping to provide
flourish to what you're doing.
Say, you could be the one goingout and doing these different

(57:09):
events for yourself and thisperson is helping you to plan
them out.
This person is helping you torefine what it is that you're
doing.
You to refine what it is thatyou're doing.
This is something that is areally common dynamic between,
like, creative businesses, right, is, you can have the person

(57:34):
who is like really full of ideasand full of imagination and
full of all these concepts and,oh my God, I'm like I got to
make all these things happen.
Right, you know speaking ofpotential, right concepts, and,
oh my god, I'm like I gotta makeall these things happen.
Right, you're you, you know,speaking of potential.
Right, you got all thesepotential things that you're
just like I just have to givelife to these, to these concepts
, right, uh, but you can go sofar and so distracted with

(57:55):
speaking personally, right, I'velike I'm, you know, being
blessed and cursed with, notcursed I said that jokingly with
so many different ideas.
Right, I've like I've, you know, being blessed and cursed with,
not cursed I said that jokinglywith so many different ideas
right, I think any uh creativeprobably relates to that.

Angelo (58:07):
Oh yeah, where you, you come up with a million things
and then you get sidetracked oh,god, you have a like a hundred
unfinished projects seriously,no, seriously, and then it can
be super.

Matt (58:17):
It can be super helpful.
And there's challenging alsowhen you have the person who is
the one who's able to look atthat from outside and go like
which ones of these are takingpriority, which ones of these
are helping you to organize yourthinking, helping you to be

(58:40):
able to see from outside andhelping you to refine what it is
that you're doing, and so youhave to have some humility there
and you could see things thatthat person doesn't see.
But that person can also comein and see things that you don't
see.
So that's your sovereign andmagicians working together, you

(59:05):
know.

Angelo (59:07):
It'd be funny if they made like you ever seen that
movie Inside Out, where you haveall the little emotions, the.
Pixar movie.
Yep, it'd be funny if they madelike a Four Archetypes version
of it.
Oh my god.

Chris (59:20):
I would watch that movie I wouldn't watch the hell out of
that movie so heck yeah, Ididn't watch inside out, but now
I'm interested because I'm likemaybe it's something kind of
like that.

Angelo (59:32):
That's quite it's quite profound somewhat they, they go
based off of the I think it'sfive core emotions, and and then
they just made a sequel whichthey throw in some anxiety and
embarrassment in there, and Iforget what the other one's
called Ennui, which is likeboredom or something.

Matt (59:53):
Yeah, I really love the concept of it.

Angelo (59:56):
Yeah, like the four archetypes that live within you.

Chris (59:59):
Yeah, and it makes sense.
I remember, you know, earlierin the talk, when you said that
the magician is like oh, I'm sowise, I'm so insightful, why
aren't I in charge of this wholedeal?
Yeah, um, and well, I meanreferring back to that uh, map
environment metaphor.
I mean you can't live in theair, even if you're a magician

(01:00:21):
or your priest or whatever youwant to call.
That energy is really wise andinsightful.
You can't, you can't just livethere, you have to live on the
ground, you have to be down toearth, right?

Matt (01:00:31):
yes, yes, interesting, very well put very well put,
yeah, which, speaking ofarchetypes and also like
mythical figures, so odin I'mlike very, very fascinated with
with.
In fact, I'm creating an odinpiece right now, um for for
those who aren't familiar yeah,oh my god, he's I can't wait to

(01:00:54):
see it, he's, he's, he's like ahardcore odin fans odin, like
I've got all I've got stories toread.
It's fantastic.
Yeah, love me some, odin.
Anyways, did you read AmericanGods?
I watched the first season ofthe show.
Okay, yeah, I won't do thespoiler about Odin.

Chris (01:01:16):
I didn't watch the show.
I read the book Very good.
Oh, that's very cool.

Matt (01:01:21):
Well, I'll have to read the book now, thank you, but so
Odin has actually five, but I'llfocus on four.
That he's associated with Fourcreatures, right, he has two
ravens and two wolves and, bythe way, like my wife listens to

(01:01:42):
this podcast, she's like, ofcourse, talking about freaking
Odin.

Chris (01:01:44):
It's like anyway.

Matt (01:01:47):
So he's Hugen and Munen, which mean thought and memory,
right, so they live in the airwhen we think about thought and
memory traveling around you.
You know, flying around youcould and like the, so that the

(01:02:08):
bird's eye view of things.
Think about the magician and thebird's eye view of things right
and that is very useful whenyou are in a situation and say
you, you know you could be toodown in it, too fired up with,
with what's happening around you.
This is, you know, one of thethings where I would even say

(01:02:30):
that this may even be a safetyofficer thing right is to is to
mentally elevate you above thatso you can look down and see the
pieces moving around and seehow you know, learn to conceive,
however, how it's all workingtogether, right, and then use
that map to figure out, you know, and decide as the, as the

(01:02:55):
sovereign, like what's the bestorderly course of action here?
Right, so you have?
So you have the ravens.
Then he has two wolves, uh, geriand freki, which are translate
to greed and hunger, right,which sounds kind of dark here,

(01:03:16):
but they're.
They're the ones who go out andget things, they're the ones
who are navigating the land,they're the ones who are out and
get things.
They're the ones who arenavigating the land, they're the
ones who are.
So you have the two who areabove, up in the air, and then
you have two which are on theground.
Right Two on the ground whichare navigating and seeing all
these, right, and they come backto Odin, and Odin of course

(01:03:37):
holds a whole bunch of wisdom,right, and of course holds a
whole bunch of wisdom, right.
So if you have, if you havethese four creatures which are
assisting you and going out,covering the air, looking around
in the air and covering,covering the ground as well, and
okay, so I'll mention thisfifth creature, slip near, which
is an eight-legged horse, which, which is the fastest horse,

(01:04:00):
right so, traveling all aroundall the nine realms on the
fastest horse in the universe,basically so covering all this
ground.
So we could see that these arelike ultimate ideals of these

(01:04:21):
different archetypes, of thesedifferent, of these different
functions, right?
So, powerful warrior, magician,I mean, he's got a spear that
never you know that never missesthat never that, never that,
never stops, basically, until ithits its target.

(01:04:41):
Right, it's got the you know,it's got the wisdom which they
had.
The translation of wisdom islike mental ability, like
knowing of lore, knowing ofspells, knowing of you know,
knowing of lore, knowing ofspells, knowing of you know,

(01:05:01):
knowing of knowledge, knowing ofyou know, and wisdom in the
sense that we would think of itright as being able to connect
the dots and knowing you know,ideal course of action for
different situations, right?

Chris (01:05:16):
Okay, you could almost I think you could almost take this
idea that maybe this archetypeof the Norse god, odin, and
write your own spirituality bookon Norse spirituality Maybe, I
don't know.
It's interesting, that'd be fun, it's really interesting.
It's taking these ideas andthen just kind of transplanting

(01:05:38):
them onto Odin.
For sure, these ideas, and thenjust kind of transplanting them
onto, uh, onto odin.
I did want to ask um, at whatpoint in your life did you come
into contact with the archetypeideas, you know, the of male
psychology, the king or themagician and the lover?
And then, what was it likedoing that shadow work and what
sort of um, like practicalthings happened in your life as

(01:06:04):
you were doing that work?
Like what changed?

Matt (01:06:06):
big questions um so, um so I first came into contact with
them through my wife, helena,and she's familiar with, like
the archetypal system.
The Enneagram Insights isanother, but the archetypes and

(01:06:27):
Enneagram, specifically, havebeen like common languages that
we've been able to call tounderstanding each other because
we're you know, we are who weare and it's how we work, work
together, right?
But my first, um, I would say,embodied experience with the
archetypes was going throughmen's work program that created

(01:06:50):
by very, very dear friend, scottharris.
He created this brotherhood ofkings program, which is a
10-week online program.
Literally, there was like athere were, uh, there were three
of us, right, uh.
So he was in canada, thegentleman was in australia and,
of course, I'm here in colorado,right?

(01:07:10):
and so we'd meet every week forthese, these two hour sessions,
and uh, we'd have, you know,these workbooks, worksheets,
like how the archetypes appearin our lives.
So, every week we would haveour worksheets, like how the
archetypes, you know, appear inour lives in an inflated,

(01:07:33):
deflated sense.
And when we got into thesessions we would do this shadow
work thing where we would, youknow, the thing would be like
sitting to one side, likephysically orienting yourself in
a certain position, like overhere, I would sit to the left,
this would be I think that wasthe inflated and then sit to the

(01:07:57):
right.
That would be the deflated,like we would act them out.
It can feel a little weird atfirst, you could feel like
you're maybe forcing it, but themore that you learn what those
voices sound like andfamiliarizing yourself with them

(01:08:17):
, then you can understand oh,this is inflated, this is
deflated.
And, by the way, there arethings that there are definitely
things you can learn aboutyourself, and things that I
would even say are useful in thepolls, and like there are
actually reasons why you havethem.
They're not just, they're notjust like bad, you know.

(01:08:40):
I mean, definitely you want tobe centered, but they're.
But you know, like you know,chris, like you said earlier,
there is a wisdom.
Uh, there can be wisdom in theinflated magician.
Like you can, you know, you candefinitely see things right,
it's, it's not talking justnonsense, right, right.
And you know, by the oppositetoken, by having your head in

(01:09:03):
the sand, right, you could beguarding yourself from things
that could actually be damagingto you.
Sure, you know, interesting.

Chris (01:09:13):
So there is that right.
What were the practical effectsthen, after you were doing the
workshop for so long?

Matt (01:09:30):
I mean, I definitely got very I remember getting very,
very fascinated and in tune withthe sovereign and what, what
that means, what, like thesovereign, the sovereign is just
so interesting.
It's out so fascinating andseeing how, uh, how, I align
with the different archetypes indifferent ways, like, like, in
what way am I going?

(01:09:50):
And you know, committing actionlike, what is the like?
What does that capacity looklike for me?
How do I see that showing up inmy, in my real life?
You know the lover I picked upguitar again.

Chris (01:10:03):
Oh, there you go.
Yeah, I started playing.

Matt (01:10:05):
I started really loving guitar, you know.

Chris (01:10:09):
So you became more in tune with yourself.

Matt (01:10:11):
Yeah, oh, yes, yes, in a nutshell, that's absolutely what
happened.
Okay, absolutely, absolutely.
And yeah, really exploringagain like what the relationship
of the sovereign is like islike for me, like you know, and
I definitely got into that placewhere I felt it had to mean
that I was leading a thing orleading other people or that

(01:10:35):
sort of thing, and just you know, it's really been a journey
with that one um, because it canbe quite mysterious.
A lot of people can get lost inwhat the sovereign means.
You kind of have to find yourway with it awesome.

Angelo (01:10:50):
Well, I guess, on that note, it'd be good to sort of
end there.
Thank you all for joining us.
Uh, we hope that you liked thispodcast and that you got a lot
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(01:11:10):
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Chris (01:11:17):
It was great Find your way in life.

Matt (01:11:19):
Right on.
Thank you everybody, and I hopethat you're able to find some
useful parts for yourself, beinspired, and that this has been
meaningful for you.
So thank you.
Thank you everybody.