Myths, Mastitis, And Milk: We’re Unclogging More Than Ducts

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Ever wish someone would tell you the truth about breastfeeding without the guilt or the gadgets? We bring on Samantha, a seasoned NICU nurse and International Board Certified Lactation Consultant, to cut through the noise and give you a clear path forward—whether you’re nursing, pumping, combo feeding, or bottle feeding from day one.

We start with the realities most classes skip: colostrum is enough for many newborns, full milk often takes five to seven days, and supply typically regulates around six to eight weeks. Samantha shares what successful latch actually looks like, why positioning changes everything, and how to listen for swallows so you know milk is moving. She explains how inconsistent pumping, poorly fitted flanges, or relying on wearables without proper setup can invite clogs and mastitis—and how to avoid those traps with simple, consistent routines.

Funding cuts and mixed hospital advice make support feel out of reach, so we break down practical, affordable ways to get help. You’ll hear why a single, trusted guide can beat a dozen conflicting opinions, why prenatal education is the highest ROI investment you can make, and how to advocate for your plan when policies or timelines get in the way. We also tackle the hot topics: oversupply isn’t the goal, pumping is breastfeeding, nipple confusion is often overstated, and having donor milk or a small formula backup can protect both intake and your mental health. Hydration, nutrition, and rest matter more than your app’s timer—and any amount of your milk is a win.

Leave with five grounded basics that move the needle: get support early, prioritise positioning, master an effective latch, follow baby-led cues over rigid timing, and simplify your tools. If you’re ready to trade stress for support and perfectionism for progress, this conversation will help you build a feeding plan that fits your life.

If this episode helps you breathe a little easier, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review so more parents can find real, judgement-free support.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:12):
Hi, Mamas.
Thank you for tuning in to thisepisode of Attend Be Friend.
I'm so excited today to welcomeSamantha, who is an IBCLC, which
means an internationalboard-certified lactation
consultant.
Samantha has over a decade ofexperience as a NICU nurse.
Her work in neonatal care gaveher a deep understanding of the

(00:35):
real challenges families facewhen it comes to feeding their
babies.
As an IBCLC, Samantha supportsparents through every stage of
their feeding journey, whetherthat's breastfeeding, bottle
feeding, or finding the approachthat works best for their
family.
She believes that there's no onesize-fits-all way to feed a baby
and focuses on helping parentsfeel supported, confident, and

(00:58):
understood in their choices.
Let's get into this firstinterview with a lactation
consultant.
Join us.
Hi, Samantha.
Thank you so much for being withme today.
I'm really excited.
This is my first interview withan IBC L C or even a lactation
consultant.
Welcome.

SPEAKER_04 (01:17):
Thank you, Deborah.
I'm so excited to do this withyou.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
Great.
I want to dive right in.
The first time I met you, Ireally felt like a little bit of
an energy connection, and I'vebeen holding on to when I was
ready to hire a lactationconsultant to come into I love
that.
Yeah.
So tell me a little bit aboutwhat inspired you to become a
lactation consultant.

SPEAKER_04 (01:40):
Honestly, I've had such a passion for so many years
now.
I've been a NICU nurse for thelast 11 years.
So I've always been helping momsin the NICU setting with
breastfeeding and the challengesthey face with that.
And then outside, I've just beena big help with friends and
family.
And it just made me realize thelack of support in our community

(02:02):
and the need for people tosupport moms through this
journey.
So I finally took the plunge andgot my IBCLC.
And it's honestly been a dreamcome true since.
Tell me a little bit about thecertification.

SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
What does that look like?

SPEAKER_04 (02:17):
So I did an online course through Ann Arbor
Breastfeeding Group.
It's a self-study course that Ihad to do over a couple months.
And then there's a big examafter that, which I will say was
harder than my nursing exam.

SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
Nice.
That means you're highlyqualified.
Yes.
So I have heard a little bitabout the task, the exam.
And did you have to do aplacement or were you able to
get like your hours at the NICU?

SPEAKER_04 (02:46):
Yeah, because I work in the NICU, it included in my
hours.
So that worked out well.
And because I had been there for10 years, um, I had enough of
the hours already.

SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
That's awesome.
I love that.
So you've been an IBCLC, whichis short for International Board
Certified Lactation Consultantfor a little over a year.
Yes, a little over a year.
Awesome.
And what are you feeling is thelargest or biggest barricade to

(03:18):
women?
Money.
Money.

SPEAKER_04 (03:21):
I feel like honestly, there's no funding and
no support financially for womenin Ontario and Canada for
breastfeeding, um, which createsa huge barrier to getting that
support for moms because I wouldlove to support everyone out
there, but in reality, like itis still my job.

(03:41):
And so when moms come to me andthey're looking for support and
they say they can't afford it,it just kills me.
So I try and help them any way Ican.
And then there's definitelyother resources out there.
Um, but definitely the financialbarrier is a huge one.

SPEAKER_00 (04:01):
Yeah, I think I agree.
I think that is definitely thebiggest barrier for success in
breastfeeding.
Tell me a little bit about whata day as a lactation consultant
looks like for you.
I know we we have to consider,first of all, that Samantha also
has a full-time job as a NICUnurse, but on the days that
you're doing lactationconsulting, what would that look

(04:23):
like?
Would it look like home visits?

SPEAKER_04 (04:26):
Majority, so there is the home visits.
I offer prenatal consultations,which is my favorite thing to do
because if I can get to momsbeforehand and teach them and
give them realisticexpectations, I feel like it
sets them up for success afterpostpartum.
So my prenatal education is anin-home education.
I go to their house and teachthem all the things.

(04:47):
And then after that, I do thein-home postnatal visits, which
is a lot of the latching issues,positioning when mom's milk
starts to come in.
Um, but I would say the majorityof my days are the like two
weeks of phone support that Igive the moms after.
So after I leave the visit iswhen the other questions come in
and other concerns that theydon't think about right when I'm

(05:10):
there.
And it's a lot of day-to-dayjust encouraging and
troubleshooting little thingsover the phone is yeah, that's a
big part of it.

SPEAKER_00 (05:20):
I love that you use the word troubleshooting because
that's one of the biggest thingsthat I find is that after we
have the baby or side, that thefirst two weeks is not that they
a hundred percent need you toteach them everything, it's the
troubleshooting.
Exactly.
Another thing that I see here inthe clinic a lot is that women

(05:45):
second guess themselves so much.
Oh my goodness.
And then add to that the stressof healing your body, lack of
sleep, and then your judgment ishormones.
Your hormones is just going off.
Yeah, I feel like the majorityof my clients that are looking
for breastfeeding support needto be troubleshooted, but also

(06:05):
they need to be told, you gotthis normal.
This is common.

SPEAKER_04 (06:09):
A lot of therapy, honestly.
I do.
I feel like I'm more of atherapist sometimes.
I definitely agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
Yeah.
How are you feeling about ourbreastfeeding rate here in
Windsor and Essex County, whichis at 16%?

SPEAKER_04 (06:24):
Yes, I know.
When you told me that, I wasshocked.
That to me seems very low, butI'm also coming from working in
Detroit, um, which I originallyworked in London.
And I feel like when I was inLondon, everybody breastfed.
It was very high.
I don't know exactly what therates are, but coming from
working in Detroit and nowsupporting women in Windsor, I

(06:47):
feel like as it is low, it isalmost a little bit higher than
from what I'm used to.
But I do there's tons ofbarriers from the sociodical
aspect of it and just the lackof support that we have to that
number is so low.
Like it could be and should bemuch higher.

SPEAKER_00 (07:06):
Yeah.
I heard something from one of mypatients yesterday who delivered
her baby last week, and sheasked for a lactation consultant
at our hospital, and there wasno one on staff.

SPEAKER_04 (07:18):
Yeah, I've heard that a lot of funding has been
cut um in the lactation sportworld, especially through the
health unit.
Um, it pains me because they'recutting all that kind of
funding, and women still have noother resources to help get
support.

SPEAKER_00 (07:35):
Yeah.
I think the lack of support isreally devastating, first of
all.
And I feel like women are notlike the majority of the
population don't even know aboutthe resources that are
available.
Not only paid support, but thefree support, like the La Lache
League, Andrea Cassidy, who's amidwife in Windsor and Essex

(07:56):
County, who has a grant.
Like those are all freeresources that are available for
anyone.
I'm not saying that everybody'sgoing to be comfortable with
those resources, but those arethe free resources.
Plus all the paid lactationconsultants that we have a
decent amount for a town of thissize.
It's just that people are notaware of them.

(08:18):
The majority of the populationthat I speak to and we discuss
prenatal education and we talkabout postpartum success,
they've never looked intoanything that supports.

SPEAKER_04 (08:28):
And I think it's because it almost becomes a
little too late.
If we can do the prenatal partof it and educate prior to
having a baby, then it would bemore they would realize that
they have the support and wouldthey be more likely to reach out
to people after baby comes.

SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
So, what are we gonna do about that, Sam?
Are we gonna start teachingclasses?

SPEAKER_04 (08:49):
Teaching classes, yes.
Yes, prenatal classes, I thinkthat's education.

SPEAKER_00 (08:54):
Yes.
Let's make that happen.
Okay.
I want to talk a little bitabout some myths and
misunderstandings aboutbreastfeeding.
And let's start with thequestion: what do you wish that
most families really understoodabout breastfeeding before they
actually begin?

SPEAKER_04 (09:11):
I think coming from the NICU, this is my biggest way
of teaching breastfeeding, isthat it's not a one size fits
all.
It doesn't have to be one way orthe highway.
You can want to breastfeed, butyou can also introduce a bottle,
supplement, and it doesn't haveto be right off the get-go of
this is it has to be this way.

(09:32):
Because I find when families arein that mentality, that's when
it becomes stressful, they giveup and it just doesn't work out
for them.

SPEAKER_00 (09:41):
So the mindset of I'm gonna try my best with
breastfeeding, I'm gonna educatemyself on it.
And then when the strugglestarts to happen, I'm gonna be
okay with pivoting.

SPEAKER_04 (09:56):
Exactly.
Yes.
Like we all want to have a plan,but we all have to realize plans
always don't work out and weneed to have backups, and that's
okay.
And especially what I teachparents too is that
breastfeeding doesn't have to becompletely established within
those first few days.
It's a learning process and it'ssomething you have to work at.
And in order for it to besuccessful, you need to be able

(10:19):
to compromise and do differentthings.
And as long as your baby's beingfed and you're taking care of
mom and baby, then it can,there's different paths you guys
can take.

SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Yeah.
I love that you said that you'relearning because I think that's
really important to talk abouthow breastfeeding is a learned
skill.

SPEAKER_04 (10:38):
Big time, yes, for mom and baby.

SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
Yeah, we talk a lot about oh, breastfeeding is so
natural.

SPEAKER_04 (10:43):
Oh my gosh, that is something I want to debunk.

SPEAKER_00 (10:46):
Yeah, exactly.
Oh, sure, sure.
Feeding your baby with yourbreast is natural, right?

SPEAKER_04 (10:51):
That doesn't not everyone is supposed to be able
to breastfeed.
Not every woman can producebreast milk.
And I think that's a mentalitythat we have to um people
realize.
Like it's such a hormonalfactor, and there's a lot of
things that need to align tohave that perfect situation.

SPEAKER_00 (11:08):
I heard you say a little bit in the question
before this one that a lot ofthings can happen when your milk
supply is being established.
Talk about that a little bitbecause I don't think women
fully understand that it cantake weeks.

SPEAKER_04 (11:23):
It can take so long.
And that's what we can touch onlater about like your newborn
follow-up clinic appointment.
It just boggles my mind that ittakes at least five to seven
days for your milk to come in.
Whether it can change if you'vehad a C-section, it can change
if your baby's early, it canchange with there's so many
factors that it may take longer.

(11:44):
So when people think, oh, I'm mymilk supply is not in yet, and
then they stress, and thenthey're like, okay, I need to
switch to this and that, it'sjust takes a long time to
realize.
And if they had theunderstanding that, okay, what
is there, it can provide for mybaby.
Then once your milk comes in, itall falls in place.

SPEAKER_00 (12:07):
So what you're saying is that it can take five
to seven days.
Some women are early, some womenare a little bit later, but what
you are producing in thebeginning, the first few days,
is sometimes enough for thebaby.

SPEAKER_04 (12:20):
Exactly.
Like that colostrum has so manybenefits, and truly that's all
baby needs.
Yes, there's differentcircumstances that you might
need.
It might not be enough if yourbaby is very small, if your baby
is John, like there's so manyother factors, but ultimately
that little bit of colostrumgoes a long way.

SPEAKER_00 (12:40):
Yes.
And I want you to talk aboutsomething that I like to teach
my moms is that your milk supplysometimes doesn't get fully
established where your body is,okay, I'm feeding one baby of
this size.
I always say six to eight weeks.
Is that correct?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (13:00):
Yes, totally.
I just had a mom recently whowas combo feeding, so
breastfeeding and pumping, andshe was getting so much milk in
those first couple weeks.
And then all of a sudden, monthin, she's not pumping as much.
My supply is dropping.
I don't know what to do.
And I said, No, your body'sregulating.
You're only supposed to bemaking that certain amount.
You don't want such a bigsupply.

(13:22):
So it's not that you're losingyour supply, it's that your body
is regulating and it just takesthat long for it to so that's
really important.

SPEAKER_00 (13:31):
I like the word regulating.
I think that's really importantto talk about, right?
Because these women often gettold to pump right away to
establish their milk supply,right?
Yeah, and then what happens isexactly what you said.
So now the body thinks thatthey're feeding two babies
because the breast stimulatesthe body to make milk, and the

(13:55):
pump being put to the breaststimulates the body.
Exactly.
And then they got their milksupply established, and then
they stop pumping, and thenmastitis happens.

SPEAKER_04 (14:05):
Oh, yes.
With that being said, too, likeeveryone and I totally get it.
Everyone wants to have extramilk so dad can feed a bottle or
their support person can feedthe bottle.
I'll be down for that too.
But I need moms to understandconsistency.
So a lot of the times moms willbe putting baby to breasts and
then pumping, but they'repumping all willy-nilly.

(14:27):
They're not really pumping aftera feed.
So then that's when I do see themastitis come in and clog ducks
come in because they'll pumponce a day or they'll pump three
times another day, and then yourbody is just doesn't understand
what it's doing.

SPEAKER_00 (14:41):
Interesting.
I love that.
So being consistent with yourpumping, same as your
breastfeeding.
Yes, exactly.
That helps me understand that alittle bit more.
All right, let's go on to thenext question.
And then we talked a little bitabout myths and pieces of
information that that weconstantly have to explain the

(15:04):
difference between and ordebunk.
Talk about a few of those.
One of the things that we talkedabout is that breastfeeding is
natural.
We know that's we have tocorrect that every day.
What else?

SPEAKER_04 (15:16):
The I think what we talked about too is having that
oversupply.
Like everyone wants to have anoversupply, but that's not
natural, and that's not what youwant.
You want to be able to producejust what your baby's taking.
So if your baby's taking twoounces, when you pump, you want
to have two ounces removed.

SPEAKER_02 (15:34):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (15:35):
So I think everyone wants to like pump and have, oh,
I would need the six to eightounces or whatever, but your
baby's only taking two ounces.
So now your body is wayoverproducing.
Yes.
And then when it doesn't dothat, people get upset because
they think, oh, I'm losing mysupply and what's wrong with me,
and I'm an undersupplier.

SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
So you're saying that it's great if you get six
to eight ounces, but also it canlead to feeling disappointed
when you don't get six to eightounces.

SPEAKER_04 (16:04):
Exactly.
And the comparison.
Yes.
People like to compare, right?
To everybody.
And we'll probably hit on thislater social media.

SPEAKER_02 (16:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (16:13):
But you gotta look everybody's journeys different,
and everybody has their own,like they need to set themselves
up for what they're doing.
So if your baby is only eatingtwo to three ounces, that's how
much milk you should beproducing.
You can't really, it's not atextbook thing, right?
Like it's more individuallybased.

(16:33):
And I think people need torealize that it's individually
based.
And as much as we can teach youwhat the norms are and what you
should be doing, it changes forevery single person.

SPEAKER_00 (16:44):
Yes, and it changes as your baby grows.
Totally.
Yes, yeah.
One of the things that I like todebunk is that I have to pump to
get my milk supply in.

SPEAKER_04 (16:55):
Oh, yes, I know.
And I've been trying to tellwomen too like when your milk
does come in, they want to pumpright because you're so
engorged, but realistically youdon't want to.
So I encourage women to taketheir Tylenol and ibuprofen and
ice and kind of get throughthose first few days of feeling
uncomfortable before you startpumping off.

(17:16):
Cause like you said, then youput baby on, then you pump, and
now you're telling your body toproduce way more.
Yes.
And then down the line, you'regonna have way more issues.

SPEAKER_00 (17:25):
And then once you create that, once you tell your
body that this engorged breastis what you need to feed your
baby, that engorged breast isgoing to continue to come.
Exactly.
Yes.
So engorging or engorgement issomething too that people like
there's so much differentadvice.

SPEAKER_04 (17:42):
Oh, it is honestly, that's a great topic because
yes, things have changeddrastically in the lactation
world with that.
Mastitis and clogged ducts,everyone, I think there's a
misconception with it.
Ultimately, you're gonna get aclogged doctor mastitis from
ineffective milk removal.

SPEAKER_02 (17:59):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (18:00):
So it's not because you're producing too much or
other things, but it's becausethat milk is not being removed.
Okay.
So realistically, you can treatyour mastitis, you can pump, and
everyone wants to unclog thatduct, but it all stems down from
why is the milk not beingremoved effectively, whether
it's from the baby or whetherit's from your pump.

(18:20):
So you really need to look intookay, is my latch okay or is my
pumping okay?
Are my flanges the right size?
Is my pump doing what it'ssupposed to be doing?
Um, where I think a lot ofpeople don't they want to treat
it with the medication, which isgreat.
Yes, but then you also need togo back and say, okay, why is
this happening?

SPEAKER_00 (18:38):
Yeah, and why does it continue to happen?
Right.
I find that if a mom has itonce, you know, that it's
possible that she's going tohave it again.
Yes.
Yeah.
So the other thing that I wouldlike to debunk is that every
single woman needs a breastpump.
Oh.

(18:59):
And you need not necessarilythat every woman needs a breast
pump, but don't even get mestarted on the hands-free breast
pumps.

SPEAKER_04 (19:06):
I literally wish those were never invented.
I breastfed both of my children.

SPEAKER_00 (19:11):
I loved my pump.
I used a handheld manual pump,and I went back to work eight
weeks with Lily Faye.
And I breastfed her until shewas 18 months.
She got a bottle, and I pumpedat work one breast at a time
with a hand belt, and she slowlybreastfed.

(19:32):
So for me, it's not that Idisagree with the hands-free or
the double electric pump.
Um I don't care.
Whatever works for you, butyeah, women put these six and
seven, eight hundred dollars fora pump.
Is that correct?

SPEAKER_04 (19:44):
Is that the pricing that I they can get up there?
I don't know towards 800, but Idefinitely know it's hundreds of
dollars.
Yes.
Yeah.
And that's and then nowadays,too, they want more than one.

SPEAKER_00 (19:55):
Yeah.
And that sets moms who can'tafford that.
I can't afford that pump, so Ican't breastfeed.
Not every woman needs a breastpump.
Also, you can release milkwithout a pump.

SPEAKER_04 (20:05):
Totally, yes.
I am on that page too.
I will say I like moms toprepare to have the backup if
they need it.
But like you said, a handheldpump and that helps in a pinch,
right?
You don't need the whole bellsand whistles.
It is just something to have asa backup if you need it right
away.
But yes, not everyone needs topump.

(20:26):
And I encourage moms, especiallyin Canada with our maternity
leaves, there's no reason topump, of course.
But like in hindsight, if yourbreastfeeding is going well, you
don't need to pump.
And that's a lot of added stressand time on your hands to set
yourself up for that.

(20:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (20:47):
In the first six weeks, technically, you
shouldn't be pumping.

SPEAKER_04 (20:50):
Totally.
And everyone I touched onearlier, they're in the mindset,
I want to have milk for mypartner to help with a bottle.
And I'm like, that's great,sure.
But let's get your bodyestablished first.

SPEAKER_01 (21:01):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (21:01):
And then we can talk about pumping once you're
regulated.

SPEAKER_02 (21:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (21:05):
And then once again, too, yeah, like I think social
media has brought this in whereeveryone thinks they need to
have the top line of a breastpump.
And the wearable ones for me,they just, I just, you can't
assess a mom's breast with them.
You can't see if the flange is aright fit.
Um, a lot of women just likeputting them in their bras and

(21:26):
calling it a day, which thentheir suction's not on, they're
not lined up, and they're justforgot about, which just like
breastfeeding, there's so manythings that need to align to
make sure that everything'sworking properly.
And you need to be, I feel likehands-on and like supporting
yourself through it in order forthings to work out well.

(21:47):
Um, so there is a lot ofmastitis and clogduxine with
those kind of pumps because it'snot effectively removing the
milk.

SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
Oh, okay.
That helps me.
Like, I don't know a lot aboutthem because obviously I am not
a lactation consultant.
So I can troubleshoot a lot ofthings, but I'm always more
comfortable like saying when itcomes to the pumping, guys.

SPEAKER_04 (22:21):
So it's a lot of putting the pieces together to
make sure everything works well.
Um, and then a new thing too iswhich when I was breastfeeding,
I had no idea, but your phalangesize.

SPEAKER_01 (22:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (22:32):
So these pumps come with these huge phalanges, which
is usually a 21 and 24.
But I'm finding when I'mmeasuring moms, we're getting
like more the 17 to 19 range,even 15.
So then that's an added price.
So then you have to buydifferent phalanges, or a lot of
pumps don't come with thosephalanges and you have to buy
inserts.
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (22:52):
So then it's just more things you have to buy.
So I did hear that that onebrand of pump, when you buy it,
you get a flange of a specificsize, and that's the universal
size that the company provides,and that it's almost never the
right size.
Right.
Yeah.
So I think that's reallyimportant to talk about.

(23:12):
Talk about that a little bitmore.
When you're talking about theflange, you're talking about the
piece that actually goes ontothe breast.

SPEAKER_04 (23:19):
So the piece that actually goes onto the breast,
that I guess essentially wouldbe mimicking a baby's mouth.

SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (23:25):
Um, so when with breastfeeding and latching, you
want that baby to have thatwhole nipple in their mouth,
which the whole nipple is notthe areola, it's just your base
of the nipple.

SPEAKER_01 (23:36):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (23:36):
So when it comes to so just like breastfeeding, that
whole baby needs to have thatnipple in the mouth.
So when it comes to the flange,you only want that nipple in the
flange.
So if it's too big, then thewhole flange is carrying your
areola and breast tissue inthere and it's damaging all your
breast tissue.

SPEAKER_02 (23:55):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (23:56):
Or if it's too small, then your nipple is going
to be squeezed into thatphalange and it's just gonna get
damaged and cracked, and thenyou're not effectively pulling
out that milk.

SPEAKER_00 (24:07):
So tell me about your favorite handheld pump.

SPEAKER_04 (24:11):
To be honest, the only one I really do know of is
the Medella one.
And up until recently, I wasn'tnot that I wasn't a big fan of
them, but I never reallyencouraged them.
Because to me, it just, if youare on a pumping journey, um, to
me, a double electric pump iswhat I would recommend just for
time's sake.

(24:32):
But I feel like maybe because ofsocial media, the handheld pump
is becoming one of the newstandards.
And it's just it is a quick,easy way to release that milk.
But once again, too, it onlycomes with the one size.
So you have to make sure thatyou get your proper sizing.
And there's something a lot ofwomen say that the suction is

(24:53):
just a lot better that they findversus the um electric pumps.

SPEAKER_00 (24:58):
So the handheld is a little more suction than the
electric.

SPEAKER_04 (25:04):
Like I said before, everyone is different.
Yes.
Um, but I've been hearing thatsome women find that it is more
effective and has a strongersuction.
You said with the doubleelectric breast pumps, they're
essentially the wall pumps, theones you put into the wall, are
gonna have a greater suctionthan ones that are like battery

(25:25):
operated.

SPEAKER_00 (25:26):
So I want to clear a little bit of that up.
So you're saying that you dolove the double pumps for anyone
that's on a pumping journey.
We're not talking about a womanwho's at home for six months to
a year.
We're talking about a woman whois on a pumping journey for
whatever reason.

SPEAKER_04 (25:44):
Yeah, and is exclusively pumping.
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (25:47):
Then the double electric plug-in is what you
favor.
Yes.
Yes, but that you're gettingsome feedback from the community
that a handheld manual pump isproviding a little more suction
than the electric pumps inspecific clients of yours.

SPEAKER_04 (26:05):
Yes.
And that's in the incidencewhere I guess a thing I've
learned is if a baby's havingtrouble latching and the mom is
very engorged, that's a reasonwhy.
When we're very engorged, thenipple protrudes too much and
the baby has a hard timelatching, which it's because I
have too much milk.
So I always encourage moms, ifyour baby's not latching and
they've been latching perfectlyfor the last little bit, and

(26:29):
you're engorged, then you mightneed to pump some off.
So in that circumstance, just ahandheld pump, because you're
only looking to pump off just alittle bit to feel that relief,
and then relatch baby.

SPEAKER_00 (26:39):
Um, so in those circumstances, so clear that up.
The area is too firm.
There's too much milk.

SPEAKER_04 (26:45):
Too much milk, so you're too hard.
Yeah.
Essentially, he has a hard timelatching onto your nipple.
Yes.
Because, say you've baby had anice five-hour stretch at night
and you wake up and you'rereally hard, and you're so now
you're trying to put your babyon for relief.
They're just losing their mindbecause they can't get on.
Yeah.
Think back to being like, okay,maybe I'm too engorged and I

(27:06):
need to release a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (27:08):
Which, like you said, you don't always need a
pump to release.
There's other ways of doing it.
You can manually express.

SPEAKER_00 (27:14):
Talk about that a little bit because I think that
there's so much confusion.
The haka is suggested, and thenjust like having those little
shields, I don't even know whatthey're called.
You just place it on one breastwhile you're feeding on the
other and it collects.

SPEAKER_04 (27:30):
So the haka essentially, and everyone loves
it because they're like, oh, I'mgetting more supply and stuff.
But then you're tricking yourbody to thinking like a baby's
on your breast.
Yeah.
And then you're just going tostart overproducing.
Now, the collection cups, thoseI can get with and are okay
because you're not puttingsuction on your breast.

(27:50):
And a lot of people will, ifthey have a great supply,
they'll just leak continuouslywhile baby's on the other side.
So the collection, yeah, thecollection ones are good.
And then that can give you alittle bit of a backup to have.
Um, but the hawka essentially,you that creates that suction.
So now you're just tricking yourbody into producing more than

(28:10):
you actually need.

SPEAKER_00 (28:11):
Yeah, you're triggering your body.
Yes.
Thinking that you have a babylatch.

SPEAKER_04 (28:15):
Right.
To needing to relieve yourself.
Sure.
You can put the hawka on and getlike a couple MLs released so
that you can latch your baby.
But other than that, yeah, Idon't recommend them.

SPEAKER_00 (28:27):
Okay.
And what about the silver nippleshields?
How are you feeling about those?

SPEAKER_04 (28:32):
A lot of controversy.
They're new to me in my world oflactation.
Okay.
And from what I have in myresearch, I've found they've
done more harm than good.

SPEAKER_02 (28:43):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (28:44):
I don't honestly know a whole lot about them.
Haven't used them enough toreally give 100% feedback on
them.
Okay.
But I know that from what I'vedone in my education, that they
can be actually more harmfulthan good.

SPEAKER_02 (29:01):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (29:02):
So if so they are something that everyone wants to
get right now.
And I think maybe that's asocial media thing.
Um, and I always warn moms like,let's not do that yet.
Let's see if you eventually evenneed them and then try other
ways of healing your nipplesfirst before we go there.
Because they are expensive too.

SPEAKER_00 (29:21):
Yeah.
I do think that happens a lot.
I remember when I was pregnantwith my daughter, a friend of
mine who had already had threechildren.
She's okay, let's go to Toys RUs or Babies R Us at that time,
because remember, there was noboutique, right?

SPEAKER_04 (29:35):
Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
Four years ago.
And she took me to, and she's,I'm like, what about this?
You don't need that.
You don't need that.
Take that off.
You don't need that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (29:43):
It was there's so many things nowadays that
everyone wants to have on hand.
And then you're like, but why?

SPEAKER_00 (29:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (29:50):
It's almost like you buy those thinking, okay, my
nipples are going to be damaged.
You don't know that's gonnahappen.
No.

SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
Yeah.
And also it stopped manifesting.

SPEAKER_04 (29:58):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (29:59):
Right.
Yeah.

unknown (30:01):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (30:01):
See, like you said though, you could spend money on
a lactation consultant versusbuying all these things to help
yourself because of the damage.

SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
Instead of buying all these things that are to
prevent like damage and ortroubleshoot damage, invest in a
lactation consultant.
Exactly.
I tell people all the time, youcan put my service on your
registry.

SPEAKER_04 (30:22):
I know what I made a post about that on my Instagram
and I didn't get any poll fromit.

SPEAKER_00 (30:28):
Sometimes it's about who's seeing it, right?
I definitely ask them.
Okay.
So if you could design theperfect support system for new
parents from pregnancy topostpartum for breastfeeding,
what would that look like?

SPEAKER_04 (30:44):
Oh, so much more support than there is.
So definitely a prenataleducation session.

SPEAKER_02 (30:50):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (30:50):
Um, definitely one, more the merrier.
That would ultimately be great.
Um, I do the one-on-one.
Breastfeeding classes are great,but I find just when I'm
one-on-one with clients, there'squestions that they might not
ask in a breastfeeding group.
We can get out the pump, we canactually put it on them and use
it.
And it's just a little morepersonable.

(31:11):
So definitely that prenataleducation is huge.
And then the follow-upappointments, I would love to
see them more than just one.
Typically, they have me comeright when baby's born, their
milk's not in yet.
So we're working on a lot ofjust latching and positioning.
And I get there, and for somepeople, not everybody,
everything goes great.
They get on and everything isgreat when I get there, even

(31:34):
though like it might have beentwo days of they're like, their
baby's not latching, I don'tknow what's wrong.
I get there.
And I honestly, sometimes withthe positioning, I just tweak a
couple little things, and babyis able to get on and latches
perfectly.
And they're like, they weren'tdoing this before.
Thank you so much.
But then I leave and then theyfall into the same kind of

(31:54):
troubles.
So I would love to have likewhere you have a package of say
five visits.
So you have your prenatal visit.
I could come see you afterbirth, either in the hospital or
at home.
And then again, once your milkis in, and then it's it doesn't
have to be like a barrier of,oh, I have to pay you again, or
I don't know when should I comebecause I want to see you three

(32:17):
weeks from now when we'redealing with other things.
Um, so yeah, so in hindsight orin the grand scheme of it all,
it would be amazing if they hadlike a five visit package that
they'd be able to use mewhenever, and it's not like a
strict timeline of when I couldsee them.

SPEAKER_00 (32:38):
It's a one and done visit.

SPEAKER_04 (32:40):
Yes, and yeah, that's hard.
It ultimately you can't totallyhelp someone on a breastfeeding
journey just by seeing them onetime.

SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
Yeah, it's definitely something that needs
a little more support than that.
I love the idea of a packagebecause then they're not
concerned about okay, I don'tknow if I should text her.
Like when we do a doulacontract, they don't care how
many times they message me.
Exactly.
They don't care how many timesthey visit, they send me a text
message post-part on my says itin your contract.

(33:08):
So pay for the service up frontor when payment plans, whatever
we've decided on.
And then no one's afraid to senda message.
Dad's not afraid to send amessage, grandma's not afraid to
send a message.
They know that it's covered.
I really like that idea.
I really think we should work onthat.
Okay, I want to talk a littlebit more about hospital policies
and the discharge timelines,first of all, and what we're

(33:33):
seeing in the hospitals that arecausing some difficulty.
Like we talked about earlier,there's not a lot of funding for
lactation consultants at thehospital.
Another thing that I havenoticed as well is that moms say
to me, when they'rebreastfeeding, like when the
baby comes, if they don't have adoula, then they're being taught
by one nurse, then they go tothe postpartum floor and they're

(33:54):
being taught by another nurse ormaybe two, and then they go back
to the maternal newborn clinic,and then they're being taught
something else.
And and how is that kind ofimpacting the breastfeeding
success?

SPEAKER_04 (34:10):
That is honestly, it's huge because and it is, and
I always tell my clients thistoo is like I'm teaching you
based off what I've beeneducated, but also what I feel
works best.
You're gonna hear something fromsomebody else that might be
different, but you have to staytrue to what you want to do and
decide for yourself what worksbest for you.

(34:30):
And it breastfeeding is hardbecause, like I said, it's not a
one size fits all.
So there's different ways ofdoing things, which does make it
hard when you're looking forsupport and looking for someone
to teach you because there'speople do things differently.
So it is, you have to take it asyou want and do what fits for
you.

(34:50):
Um, as for the support in thehospital, I wish nurses would
get more training inbreastfeeding, um, because a lot
of times they come in as a nurseand they might have no
breastfeeding um knowledge atall.
Um, so I think if we startedwith our main line of nurses
having more support, thenobviously they could help the

(35:13):
moms.
And then when lactation isavailable, they could obviously
come see them too.

SPEAKER_01 (35:19):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (35:19):
Um yeah, it's a little, I not too sure because
I'm in the states how it is inCanada.
It's just based off what I'veheard.
And I hear both sides.
I hear, oh my God, I had afabulous experience, but more
times not.
It's the other side of thespectrum where um I didn't know

(35:41):
what I was doing, no one told mewhat I had to do, I had no
support.
And it really infuriates mebecause, like these women, and
that's where I try and promotethe prenatal so that they can
have an understanding of what todo before they get into these
situations.
Um, but we expect, right?
When we're in the hospital, youexpect that you're gonna have

(36:02):
that support and have someone tohelp you.

SPEAKER_00 (36:05):
Yeah.
One of the things I've reallyseen over the 20 years of being
a doula is that when we firststarted doula care and there was
breastfeeding support classesthat I did, we were taught to
latch baby, like actually handlethe breasts.
It felt fine for some moms.
One of the girls that I used towork with at my old clinic, I

(36:27):
found pictures of her birth theother day.
I have more pictures of herbirth than I have of my own
second kid.
In one of the first pictures ofthem with the baby, I'm holding
the baby and I'm like, why was Iholding the baby?
I asked her, I sent her a textand she's because I couldn't
hold the baby.
There's other pictures where I'mhandling her breast and the
baby's head, and I'm doing allof the latching, can be really

(36:48):
beneficial for moms who have hada cesarean section and don't
have full control over theirbodies.
But a lot of times that ends upwith disappointment because when
they go to do it themselves nexttime, they can't.
And I am learning that a lot ofdoulas are still being taught
that.
And I'm like, wait a second.
Yeah, we can't be a part of theproblem here.

(37:09):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (37:10):
We need to teach them and to be able to do it
themselves.
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (37:14):
So I still do that.
I still will say, listen, thisis you know what I'm doing.
I'm gonna unlatch and now you'regonna try.

SPEAKER_04 (37:22):
Yeah.
Then I also feel like the timeto teach them is not in those
first few hours after baby'sborn because there's so much
going on, and your mind is justnot in the mindset of learning
and being taught how to dosomething.
Yeah.
So, like we said, if we can dothe prenatal teaching and
educate them on how to do it,and then troubleshoot after when

(37:47):
everyone's settled in and thingsare in a much more comfortable
environment.

SPEAKER_00 (37:52):
I love that, Sam.
I'm gonna add that to my doulapackage, but you have to do
prenatal education,breastfeeding support in your
prenatal education class or inyour prenatal education stuff
with me.
So adding either an early visitandor adding you to that early
visit.

SPEAKER_04 (38:09):
Because then it's I've heard from some other
people that I work with thatthese moms are coming to them in
the dual earned therapy worldand they're like so upset
because breastfeeding's notworking.
And she'll be like, Did youreach out to prenatal support?
And they'd be like, No.
It's like, okay, then you can'tget upset that these things are
happening if you're not going tobe proactive.

SPEAKER_00 (38:31):
Yes.
Yeah, I think that is theproblem.
So all feelings are valid.
They're upset because theydidn't know, right?
Because I get that on my tableall the time.
A lot of the clients that cometo me for doula services are
second-time moms.
I actually don't see a lot offirst-time moms.
100%, me too.
The second time moms are like,I've learned so much and I know

(38:53):
that this is a village kind ofthing.
Yeah.
So I feel like it's okay to beupset, but fully understanding
that if you didn't set yourselfup for success, the biggest
contributor to breastfeedingsuccess is actually being
educated.

SPEAKER_01 (39:09):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (39:10):
Yes.
What kind of prenatal educationdo you believe makes the biggest
difference in helping familiesmeet their feeding goals?

SPEAKER_04 (39:19):
Realistic expectations.
I feel like you can take aprenatal breastfeeding class and
be taught textbook how to do it,but you need to be given
realistic expectations of thismay happen.
And if this happens, then youcan do this.
And if it's not working outright away, then you have other

(39:39):
alternatives to get you through.
And we can work at it on a laterwhen you're out of the hospital
and you're not in so much painor your hormones aren't going
crazy.
Um, that you have other options.

SPEAKER_00 (39:53):
So when you say realistic expectations, are we
talking about realisticexpectations for this family
specifically?
Because I recently had a mom whodid not breastfeed her first two
children.
And then her third time shewanted to try breastfeeding.
But when she got home, sherealized how much work it was.

(40:16):
And then she had these twotoddlers.
Is that what you're talkingabout?
Looking at their picture andsaying, Hey, I just want to
educate you on the amount ofwork that it takes to establish
your supply.

SPEAKER_04 (40:30):
Totally.
I warn moms that this is thehardest thing that they're gonna
have to do.
Like being pregnant anddelivering your baby is hard,
but breastfeeding is very hard.

SPEAKER_01 (40:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (40:39):
So you have to be in that mindset that it's gonna be
hard.
You're gonna have to work forit, and it's a learning curve.
Yeah.
Um, so giving them that to beginwith, hopefully they're not
going to give up when it getshard.

SPEAKER_01 (40:53):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (40:53):
Um, but also the real expectation of okay, my
baby might might not latch rightaway on day one.
So what am I supposed to do?
So I encourage as long as yourbaby's fed, we can work at
latching at any point.

SPEAKER_03 (41:06):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (41:06):
But then I once again, too, if your baby's not
latching, then of course, yes,you need to pump because you
need to get your breaststimulated for your milk to come
in.
So just that expectation thatit's not all rainbows and
sunshines, and you're notsometimes the baby's not going
to come out and just breastcrawl all the way to the breast,
which they teach is the naturalway of doing it.

(41:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (41:28):
And that's okay because that doesn't happen all
the time.
I want to talk a little bitabout when Samantha's saying
that breastfeeding is hard.
She's not saying that everybodyfinds it hard.
She's saying that it can behard.
It can be hard.
And it's a learning curve.
So, not that everybody's goingto have breastfeeding
challenges.
Some people don't have any.

(41:48):
Some people don't have slidesand they don't have lat tissues,
and it happens and it'sbeautiful and it's perfect.
That is the exception to therule.
The majority of us have someform of difficulty with one and
or two of three of those things,whether that's learning how to
pump, a milk supply, latching,tongue tie, fatigue, any of

(42:11):
those things.

SPEAKER_04 (42:12):
And what's what one person might not have trouble
with, and another person mightnot.
Everyone's journey is sodifferent that we can't just,
it's not a one thing foreverybody.

SPEAKER_00 (42:23):
Let's talk about a few things that moms can
troubleshoot.
Let's talk about the top fivethings that can set them up for
success.
Number one being find support.

SPEAKER_04 (42:35):
Yes, definitely.
Have your support, have youreducation.

SPEAKER_00 (42:38):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (42:39):
And then positioning.
Positioning is my biggest.
If I could give you one piece ofadvice or teach you one thing to
do, it'd be positioning withbaby.
And that is that I find will putlike the pieces of the puzzle
with your latching together.
Um, so learning that, and it'snot, you don't have to be in one
position.

(42:59):
So the baby can be, there'sseveral different positions, and
then making sure you'recomfortable before you bring
baby to breast.
So you need to make sure thatyou are comfortable, you are set
up with all your pillows, andthen you're gonna go to space
before starting that process.

SPEAKER_00 (43:15):
So that's number two.
Also, I want to point out therethat I have women who can do one
position on one side, and thenthey absolutely cannot do that.
100%, yes.

SPEAKER_04 (43:26):
And babies too, though.
Babies love one side more thananother.
So it's there's so manydifferent variables to it.

SPEAKER_00 (43:33):
Yes, they have a favor, they have a favorite
side.
So number two is positioning.
What would you say is numberthree?
The latch?

SPEAKER_04 (43:41):
The latch is, yes, because that is gonna be your
greatest success intobreastfeeding.
And a lot of the times, becausewhen I breastfed my daughter, I
had already been teaching andstuff, but I didn't realize my
daughter was not latched onproperly and I had no support
because everyone thought I knewwhat I was doing, which in
hindsight, you look back, andwhen it comes to you, you're
like so.

(44:02):
Knowing about the perfect latch,I shouldn't say perfect because
it doesn't have to be latch, butan effective latch is huge.
Let's talk about it in regards.
Really, like I said earlier,that baby needs to have their
whole mouth on that nipple.

SPEAKER_01 (44:17):
Yep.

SPEAKER_04 (44:17):
So you do not the biggest thing I see is women
want to put the nipple into thebaby's mouth.
You always want to bring baby toyou.

SPEAKER_02 (44:25):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (44:25):
And you want to make sure baby has that big open
mouth before bringing them toyour nipple.
Okay.
Because a lot of the timesthey'll just put the nipple in
the mouth and it'll just suckleon it.
Yep.
So making sure baby has a bigopen mouth and getting that
whole nipple in their mouth is agood latch.
And then also making sure thattheir lips are flanged up and
lip is flange down.

(44:46):
So that would be your ultimateperfect latch.

SPEAKER_00 (44:49):
Yeah.
So another word for flange upand flange down is curled up and
curled down like ducked lips.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Okay, so we talked about thelatch, and we're talking about
that the whole nipple is in, andwe're talking about the curled
lips down and up.
What about a sound and orsomething like that?

SPEAKER_04 (45:09):
So a lot of the times mom wants to know how much
baby's getting, which isn'trealistic because you can't
measure that.
So what I say is you need to bewatching baby's kind of chin and
neck area to look for thoseswallows and then listening
because you'll hear the noise ofwhen a baby swallows.

SPEAKER_01 (45:28):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (45:29):
So when a baby's just pacifying and suckling on
your breast, you can just see amotion of like a slow suck.
But when they're actuallytransferring that milk, it's an
elongated suck.
And you can really see thempulling that milk out and
swallowing it.

SPEAKER_00 (45:44):
Yeah.
So it's more you got to watchfor the swallowing, is what I
say.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (45:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
So that was number three, the latch.
What would be number four?
Top five tips.
Top five tips.
Positioning, get support, latch.

SPEAKER_04 (45:58):
Latch.
Honestly, letting go of thetiming things and recording
things and just focusing on yourbaby and you, not being not
timing how long baby was oneach.
We didn't really go over that,but that's a huge one.
Yes.
Um, and just really looking atyour baby and letting your baby

(46:19):
guide you.

SPEAKER_00 (46:20):
Yes.
Let baby tell you everythingthat you need to know.
Yes.
Yes.
I love that.
I do think that women get caughtup in the timing.

SPEAKER_04 (46:28):
And I I am the apps nowadays.
Everyone wants to be on an appand record how long they're
doing things.
And then I guess my fifth onewould be not being so scheduled.
Yeah.
That's the other thing.
So we tell moms, like, hey, youneed to feed every two to three
hours.
But go based off your baby.
Don't look at the time and belike, oh, it's been two hours.
We need to wake baby up and feedthem.

(46:49):
Mind you, there's circumstanceswhere yes, you need to do that.
Yes.
But really watch your baby andgo off the cues of your baby.

SPEAKER_00 (46:58):
Yeah.
I like to tell my new parentsuntil your milk supply comes in,
if you want to follow aschedule, go ahead because
you're learning about the baby.
If you want to do that, andespecially during daylight hours
where there's two of you caringfor baby, but during nighttime,
that's really challenging anddifficult to do.

(47:18):
So really watching what yourbaby is telling you.
Exactly.
Besides for medical reasons.
We want to make that very clearthat for medical reasons, we're
following your primary carephysicians or your midwife's.

SPEAKER_04 (47:30):
It's just like I said, every situation is
different.
So you can't compare yourself toyour friends and your family on
what they did for breastfeeding.
It all has to be your ownjourney, your own path, and what
makes you happy.

SPEAKER_00 (47:44):
And what works for your baby.
Your baby is peeing and poopingand is sleeping and doing well.
Chances are your breastfeedingis going okay.

SPEAKER_04 (47:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (47:54):
Or that the baby's getting enough milk, but that
baby is getting enough.

SPEAKER_04 (47:57):
Getting what they need.
Yes.
Yep.
Always go off your cues.
So if your baby has their wetdiapers and their output,
there's no signs of dehydrationand they're on like the right,
like I guess you wouldn't knowthat they're gaining weight yet,
but they're doing all thosesigns and you are hearing that
milk transfer.

SPEAKER_00 (48:15):
Yes.
Um, then you know things aregoing well.
Yeah, that baby is gettingnourishment.
We touched on social media alittle bit, and we talked about
it more than one time actually,but I do want to emphasize that
social media is devastating forwomen who have a problem

(48:38):
postpartum, and that's wherethey go for their one of the
things I see in my clinic isthat women go to social media
for troubleshooting, and thenall of a sudden you've tricked
the algorithm into sending youeverything on that.
I promise you, you can Googleanything and you will find proof

(48:59):
of it on social media.
Totally.
So it just feeds thatinsecurity.
And instead choose an expert,and it doesn't have to be
someone who you're paying, but afriend who successfully
breastfed or an expert thatyou're paying if you want to,
and just forget the extra noise.
Right.
I see the biggest struggle withbreastfeeding in my clinic and

(49:23):
practice with type A moms.
100% want to control everything,and no controlling.

SPEAKER_04 (49:30):
Sometimes I will straight up tell a mom, I'm
like, if you cannot let this goor let so and this and that, I
don't think this is the bestpath for you.
And I'll be straight up withthem because it's just gonna
drive you into insanity and it'snot worth it.

SPEAKER_00 (49:44):
No, I think some of those moms need to be reminded
like here, your baby's okay.
If we want to find uh one plusone equals two, we can figure
that out for you, but that isnot going to show up in every
single way.
So you can count the poops, youcan count the peas, you can
count the feeds all you want,but if you're not able to let

(50:05):
like those things tell youeverything that you need if you
are a type A person, then whatis the point?
Exactly.
Able to let your baby tell youthat's the whole point.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (50:17):
And my biggest thing too, I don't think I brought
this up yet.
Mom's mental health, my biggestconcern with baby being fed.
So mom's mental health and babybeing fed are my two biggest
concerns.
Whether it happens one way orthe other, that's what I tell
them to focus on.
Because if you are not in a goodmental health space, you cannot
take care of your baby.

SPEAKER_03 (50:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (50:38):
So if breastfeeding or if pumping or whatever bottle
feeding becomes too stressful,then you need to create your own
journey of what's going to makeyou happy.
Do what's good for you, not whatyou think is the norm or think
you're supposed to be doingsocial media and what people are
saying.

SPEAKER_00 (50:56):
Yeah, exactly.
I want to touch on a little bithow women don't fully understand
that what goes in your mouth isso impactful for your
breastfeeding.
Oh, your mouth.
When I I will challenge themsometimes, I'll say, Oh, do you
think you're drinking the water?
They're like, I drink so muchwater.
I'm like, okay, I want you tocalculate it for three days and

(51:16):
send me a screenshot.
Yes.
And then when I tell them theyneed half their body weight,
they're like, oh wait, I changedmy mind.
I'm like, okay, we're gonna fixthat first and we're gonna fix
your nutrition.

SPEAKER_01 (51:27):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (51:28):
And then we're gonna talk about what's going on with
your milk stuff.

SPEAKER_04 (51:31):
Now a lot of the complaints I get is my baby is
fussy, my baby is gassy.
And then we dive into, okay,what are you eating?
And all these things are like,oh, I didn't even think of that.

SPEAKER_00 (51:41):
Yes.
So would you go diving into thata little bit deeper?
Do you really feel that certainfoods bother certain children?

SPEAKER_04 (51:50):
Oh, a hundred percent.
I do.
I do, but I also on the otherside of that, I think it's
everyone wants to cut out dairyright away.

SPEAKER_01 (51:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (51:58):
Because of babies being gassy and fussy, which
yes, there's circumstances wherethat is true, but I don't
necessarily think every gassy,fussy baby needs to cut out
dairy.
Like everyone's really quick todo that.
Yeah, a lot of the times I tellmoms they're babies, they're
gonna be fussy, they're gonna begassy.
That's just the natural processof having a baby.

(52:20):
So we can eliminate all thesethings, but in hindsight, in the
end of it all, it's your baby'sbeing a baby.
And I think we've gotten awayfrom that as well.
And I don't know what it'scontributed to, but they're
babies.
Yeah, I love babies are gonnacry, babies are gonna be fussy,
they're babies.

SPEAKER_00 (52:40):
Babies are gonna your baby is being a baby,
right?
They're being totally normal,yeah.
Like they're being a baby, also,their digestive systems never
worked before.
This is right, right?
Like 100%.
Their body is figuring it out.
I really love that.
Your baby being a baby.
So, would you say with socialmedia that we're living in a

(53:01):
time where too much information?

SPEAKER_04 (53:04):
Oh, too much information and too many cooks
in the kitchen almost sometimes,right?
It's like I said, you're hearingall these things from different
people.
And I shouldn't say too manycooks in the kitchen because all
the support is great, but whenyou seek out support from too
many different people, theneveryone's different opinions,
it just gets more frustrating.

SPEAKER_00 (53:24):
Yes, this worked for me.
This is don't go to Facebook.
This is my promise, do not go tothe Facebook mama's group for
breastfeeding.
Oh, yes, no.
Do it.
Nobody's allowed to do it.
Call me first.
Right.
Okay.
Are there any must-have toolsthat you do recommend when it
comes to breastfeeding?

SPEAKER_04 (53:45):
Like we touched on before, is less is more.
I feel like don't go overhandwith buying all these gizmos and
gadgets right away because youdon't know what's going to end
up happening.
If you had to buy something,your prenatal education, that is
something I would say is a mustversus going out and buying all

(54:05):
the pumps and bottles and thisand that.
Um, I would say having, whichmight be controversial, is
having some bottles and formulaon hand just for that first
little bit, because I find ifyou have that backup of allowing
your baby to get a bottle and alittle bit of formula
supplement, it takes thepressure on establishing

(54:27):
everything right away.

SPEAKER_00 (54:29):
So I'm gonna challenge you so much on that.

SPEAKER_04 (54:32):
Yeah, I knew it was coming because this is and this
I have to explain myself, butgo.

SPEAKER_00 (54:37):
No, I'm not challenging in that way.
I feel that women are they dothat a lot of times, and I think
that can ease that fear, which Ido agree with.
But I really like to set womenup with their colostrum storage
if it's possible, which wehaven't talked about.
And I think that's one of thethings that your OBGYN, they

(55:00):
don't tell you that you can doit at as early as you want.
I have women who are having milkat 30, like colostrum at 30.

SPEAKER_04 (55:08):
Totally.
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (55:09):
I am very pro start pumping or not pumping,
expressing the colostrum asearly as you can, and then not
pumping because we don't want tostimulate labor contractions,
which Samantha just said, butthen the OBGYN doesn't tell you
until 38, and then we're thatyou're allowed to, and I'm like,

(55:31):
no way, 37 weeks, go for it.
Right, totally, yeah, go for it.
And if a baby comes early at 37weeks, that's permissible.
Right.
Chances are it's not going toput you into labor, although it
can.
It can, yeah.
Yeah.
So another thing that I havebeen really doing with my
clients recently is if they aretoo stressed andor they're not

(55:54):
able to get any colostrum,they're like, what do I do?
I'm like, okay, first of all,just take a breath.
We do not need to have extracolostrum.
But if that is something thatyou feel that you need, then we
can talk about having a coupleof bottles of formula.
And/or are you comfortableasking a friend for donor milk?
For donor milk.
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (56:14):
I am all about everyone thinks I get so many
people saying, oh, it's sogross.
And I'm like, I am a fanaticwhen it comes to milk, breast
milk.
Like, you spill breast milk, youclean that up with a towel and
make use of it some other way.
So I feel like no milk should gounused in any aspect.
So I am a big promoter forreaching out to people and

(56:36):
asking.
There's a lot of milk bank umoptions out there.

SPEAKER_00 (56:41):
Okay.
I see I that's something that Iam not sure of.
Like I don't usually promotethat.
I ask them to do their research,but I always ask them to ask a
friend, ask a sister if theyhave an extra bag of milk.
And even at the hospital, acouple of my clients have found
donor milk in the community fromfriends, whatever.

(57:02):
And interesting enough, whenthey go to the hospital, it
gives them a hard time.
They can't not let you.
You have no choice, they won'thelp you do it.
Devastating.
And one of my C-section mamas,she got it from actually
somebody in the community whosemom, I think the baby might have
been two months old.
And the nurses said, We can'thelp you with that because we

(57:24):
don't know where the milk camefrom.
Which in hindsight, I fullyrespect that part of it.
They're protecting theirlicense.
Right.
They created doubt in the momthat was in the room.
Right.
And the mom was confident enoughwhere she said, Okay, so you're
telling me that I should trustthis can more than this bag of
donor milk.
Right.
And I love that the mom saidthat because I felt like that is

(57:48):
one of the biggest things whenit comes to something that we
probably should move into isadvocacy.

SPEAKER_04 (57:53):
Yes.
Like you touched on that,because I try and tell parents,
you need to speak up and youneed to be your voice.
A lot of moms, which I feel sobad, they don't know any better.
They don't so once again, withgetting the education you need,
and we can help you and tell youlike you are allowed to ask for
this, you're allowed to do thisand speak up for yourself.

(58:14):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (58:15):
And also, this is your baby.
This is the nurse's baby.
When you go home, she don't givea shit about you.
Right.
She's not worried about if yougot your milk supply in, andor
I'm not saying all nurses arelike that.
Some of them are very adamantabout they do take their jobs
home, but the majority of themjust move on to the next
patient.
100%.

SPEAKER_04 (58:35):
That's where I think the there's the lack of support
there, right?
Because they don't care if youget your baby latched on right
away, or they don't, it's theyare there for, and I hate to say
this because I'm a nurse aswell, but I get it.
It's you are you got to get allyour stuff done in a certain
amount of time, and you don'talways have time to lend out
that extra set of hands to helpum get mom set up.

SPEAKER_00 (58:57):
I agree.
I feel like they have their jobthat they have to do and it's
right in a checklist.
And I totally agree with that,they don't have enough time and
they don't have extra time forbreastfeeding.
And it's not shame on them, it'sshame on the hospital one.
Totally.
But I feel like when it comes tomaking sure if you really want

(59:19):
to be able to take a breath forbreastfeeding, try as hard as
you can to find a supply ofmilk, whether that's your own
colostrum, someone else's donormilk, or having a couple bottles
of formula on hand.
And that will take that pressureoff of there's no other choice.

SPEAKER_04 (59:35):
And I don't want moms to think just because you
gave your baby five ml, 10 mlsof formula here, that they're
not gonna want to take yourbreast milk or they're not gonna
be able to latch.
That's the other thing we didn'treally touch on is like nipple
confusion.
I do not believe coming from myNICU world of nipple confusion,
there's a lot of moms will belike, I don't want them to get a

(59:57):
bottle because then they're notgonna take my breasts.
And a lot of the times is do youwant your baby fed or do you
want your baby to not take whatthey're taking?
And if a baby takes a bottle,they will take a nipple.
It might be harder, yes, andsomething you have to work on.
Right.
But it's you really have tooutweigh your, you know, what

(01:00:21):
you really want.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:23):
So you're saying that yes, giving a bottle before
the six weeks can createdifficulty with solely
breastfeeding.
But in that moment, doing thatis something that you can fix.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:36):
Yes, totally.
And you got to outweigh youroptions.
Are you going to become sostressed because your baby's not
nippling and where it's just inhindsight going to cause more
issues?
Or are you going to give yourbaby what they need?
And then we can work on bringingbaby back to breasts and making
sure they take your nipple.
Okay.
I love that you clarified thatbecause right away I'm like, no.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:59):
If you that I do preach that at the hospital
though, do whatever they wantyou to do at the hospital.
When you get home, I can helpyou figure out a whole different
ballgame.

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:08):
Yeah.
And a lot of controversy too.
For me, you might not agree withme, but Fed is best.
Please just your baby needs toget fed, whether it's one way or
the highway, it doesn't matter.
Making sure your baby is gettingwhat they need and being fed.
We can work on everything afterthat.
Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:26):
I do agree with Fed is best.
Yeah.
Because I see too many moms whoare not willing to pivot from I
only want to breastfeed.
And then they have all of theinterventions.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:38):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:38):
Fed is absolutely the best.
My job is to support whateverworks for you.
Exactly.
I don't care if you don't choosethe breastfeed.
I have lots of moms that don'tbreastfeed at all, babies born,
bottle in the mouth, and we'retying down the breasts, right?
Whatever she needs, whatever.
So I definitely feel that everysituation brings a problem and

(01:02:05):
or a situation where bottlefeeding is the right answer.
And I think every situationneeds to be addressed in a way
exactly the mother.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:15):
And just to touch on, too, I want to make point
that pumping is breastfeeding.
If you are giving your babybreast milk, you are still
breastfeeding.
A lot of women don't see it likethat.
It doesn't matter.
So they'll be like, I'm notbreastfeeding, I'm just pumping.
Pumping is a full-time job,everything's a full-time job,
but pumping is hard.
Pumping is so hard.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:34):
I think pumping is harder than breastfeeding.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:37):
It is a lot of work and it's exhausting.
So I kudos to those moms whopump for their whole journey.
And it's amazing that theywithstand that and continue to
do that for them.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:49):
Yeah, I think that it's very hard.
And yeah, kudos to any mom thattries it for two days or two.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I hear that in the clinicyesterday, even.
They're like, I'm two months in.
This is the longest that I'veever breastfed.
I know it's not enough.
But I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:04):
Why are we saying it's not enough?
Any little bit that you do, anydrop that you give your baby is
benefiting them.
And you need to be proud ofyourself for every little bit
that you do.
Yeah.
I've had so many friends andstuff that are having babies
lately and they're like, oh, Idon't think I'm gonna
breastfeed, or I don't think I'mgonna pump.
I just not me.
And I just I educate them and Italk with them.

(01:03:26):
And literally nine times out of10, they surprise themselves and
they're just like, oh my God, Iam so happy.
I can't believe we did this.
And look at me.
And even if it is only for sixweeks, six months, it doesn't
matter how long you do it.
It's just that you haveaccomplished something and that
you really surprised yourselfbecause you didn't think you

(01:03:46):
were gonna be able to do it andlook at it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:49):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that so much.
Okay, I want to finish up withtell me one message that you
wish every expecting parentlistening today, what would you
want them to know?

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:04):
This is a good one.
I feel like there's so manythings I could say, but you're
not alone.
There's support out there foreverybody.
And whether you can afford it ornot, still reach out to us.
There's ways around things thatwe can help you, whether it's
just message of affirmation,whether it's encouraging to keep
going.
There's a lot of support outthere and we can help you.

(01:04:27):
And taking care of yourself,doing what you want to do and
what makes you happy, not what atextbook tells you or social
media is telling you or familyand friends are telling you,
what you want to do and what'sgoing to make you happy.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:42):
I love that.
So I want to make sure thateverybody heard Sam.
She said that you're not aloneand that a lot of times if you
just reach out to an expert inour field, that you might be
able to get access to theirresources andor their education

(01:05:03):
in a way that works for you.
It's never one size fits allwhen it comes to finances.
We have a few ways to make itwork for you.
And the picture that you'reseeing in everybody else's world
is not your world.
It is not your world.
So we want to paint the picturethat works for you.
And that's really important toremember.

(01:05:25):
Sam, tell everyone how they canget in touch with you, how they
can find out more about you,what's your social media, your
website.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:34):
So I have my Instagram, which is and my own
business, which is SweetBeginnings Lactation.
Um, you can find me on Instagramthere and you can contact me.
And then I will be working withDeborah soon.
Yes.
So if you want to reach out toher, we can also get in contact.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:52):
That's Samantha Pinsino, the NICU nurse who is
now an international boardcertified lactation consultant.
You can find her at SweetBeginnings and you can find her
now at Pelvic Love.
Yay!

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:04):
Yay! Awesome.
Thank you, Deborah.
This was so fun.
Talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:10):
Okay, let's talk soon.