September 19, 2025 • 41 mins
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Deborah (00:13):
Hey Mamas, you're listening to Tend and Befriend,
a podcast about women's mentaland physical health.
This is Debra.
I'm a mom of two, a labor andbirth coach and birth advocate,
a health professional, and todayI'm your host.
Let's dive into today's episode.
Any information you hear orthat is suggested or recommended
(00:35):
on these episodes is notmedical advice.
Natalie Evans (00:42):
Hi everyone, welcome to Tend and Befriend.
I'm Debra, your host, yourdoula, your slightly tired but
still fired up birth worker, andtoday I have the joy of
introducing you to someone whosewarmth and strength I admire so
deeply Natalie Evans, one ofthe wonderful doulas in our
Pelvic Love Doula Agency.
Natalie brings a quiet powerand unwavering care to her
(01:03):
clients, and today we're goingto talk about why she does this
work, how she holds space andwhat she's learned walking
beside birthing families.
Natalie, thank you so much forbeing here, thanks so much for
having me.
Tell me a little bit aboutyourself, who you are, your
family, your friends, whereyou're from.
I live in Stony Point.
(01:23):
I have a son.
He's going to be two inNovember, which is crazy.
My partner and I have beentogether 10 years.
We have a dog, which isbeautiful and crazy and I
recently in January I took theplunge and did my doula training
and I sat with it for so longbefore and I was like this is
(01:46):
what I'm meant to be doing, so Iam doing that.
I resigned from my regular jobat 18 months postpartum and I
told them I'm not coming backand yeah, here I am.
Yeah, yeah, when you say you saton it for a little while, what
does that mean?
Even before I got pregnant, Ihave this awe of birth.
(02:09):
What women go throughpostpartum, that period as well.
It was like this little tug inthe back of my mind like, do
this, do this?
Like this little whisper, and Iwould shut it down for so long
I was like, oh, that's not forme.
And then, once I had my son, itjust I couldn't ignore it.
It was you wanted it, I wantedit, and I had all these little
(02:32):
signs and yeah, and then I justdid it and I'm so happy I did
what was your first introductionto a doula?
Deborah (02:40):
was it when you got pregnant?
Or obviously you knew about it,but you're saying it was
tugging at you.
What was your firstintroduction to like doula work
or a birth worker?
I want to say just doula work,because a birth worker is, you
know, is very vast.
Natalie Evans (02:54):
Yeah, I think when I was just prepping for,
like, my delivery, I wanted avery natural experience.
Physiological birth was what Iwas going for.
I dove into all the podcastsand everything, and in every
podcast everyone was like mydoula, my doula.
So in all the birth stories Iwas listening to, it was my
doula this, my doula that.
So I'm like Google.
(03:14):
I think I need one of these formy birth.
How?
do you get one of these things?
Yeah, that's awesome.
That's usually when most peoplefind them right One day, or if
they've known there's one intheir circle of friends.
Yes, before you have a childthat's usually when you find it
is when you're pregnant.
Yeah, and how are you feelingabout it so far into your
(03:35):
journey?
It's amazing, yeah, and it'ssuch a privilege and just an
honor and it's not something Itake lightly To be welcomed into
someone oh, I get emotionalI've been talking about it, but
like to be welcomed intosomeone's birth space during
this like huge transitionalmoment in your life yeah, like
you're in your most vulnerable,raw state, and to welcome
(03:57):
someone to hold you.
Yeah, I get chills Now sayingthat.
Do you feel like you might haveknown that before you had a
baby or after you have a baby?
You really feel that more?
I think it took me having achild and going through it
(04:17):
myself.
Yes, to really feel it more,but I did always feel it.
It was always there, but ittook me going through it.
But as the recipient of thatinviting someone in.
So, as a birthing person, doyou feel that it's such a sacred
space to invite someone into?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
(04:38):
I was very picky and choosyabout who I welcomed into my
birth space, like your vibe.
Yeah, I love you so much, butyou're not welcome.
I love you, you can come after,but to be in the thick of it,
yes, yeah.
I was very picky and choosy.
I think that's really importantto talk about because I have
had in the past I used to hostthese doula nights at wellness
(05:01):
center that I used to work atwhen I first started practicing
these doula nights at wellnesscenter that I used to work at
when I first started practicingand we had the open house.
You could meet all thepractitioners and I was there as
a doula and I ended up meetingthis group of people that wanted
to meet with me after.
And one of the girls that Iactually met with that night has
(05:23):
been a town crier of mine sincethen.
Like she's had two kids with meand she still refers to me.
But there was one person, onecouple, that I met with
privately.
They all wanted a meet andgreet, because I always start
with a meet and greet.
I think it's important to feelthe person's energy and I just
felt so uncomfortable in theirspace and I don't know what it
(05:44):
was Like.
I can't tell you what it was.
I just felt like there is noway I'm going to be able to
quiet that part of me that feelsthis like discomfort, to be
able to give her what she needs,and I do think that's a skill
you learn the more you're in thebirth space and also as you get
a little bit older, to softenyour personality, to make
(06:05):
somebody else's shine.
And I obviously wasn't verygood at it at that time.
But I said, I just don't feelthe connection and I'm really
sorry but I don't think I'm theright doula for you.
Here's a couple of numbers.
And the mom was so hurt, shecried and I felt so bad and so
guilty.
And I have done it a couple ofother times after that as well,
(06:26):
but that was like my first timeand I still think about it.
I can still see her face.
I can still see her tears, butI really didn't think I could
show up for them.
And I do think that reading theenergy of the person who's
coming into that space with youis really, really important.
But I don't think a lot ofpeople do the meet and greets
(06:47):
with that in mind.
Yeah, because they just want tosay yes, everyone.
Just want, like your first,someone reaches out to you to
support them.
You want to be like yeah, andalso vice versa, vice versa,
yeah.
Vice versa You're sitting andyou're like this doula's
credentials is beautiful, shehas the experience and so I want
her without saying.
Can we go for a walk and a teato see if I'm the right fit for
(07:09):
you?
Yeah, yeah, see if you canreally soften into that person.
Deborah (07:13):
Yeah , if you can't be fully wild,
messy, vulnerable, then yourbirthing hormones are going to
be disrupted during birth forsure, yeah, yeah, I think that's
a very valid point, absolutelyOkay.
So tell me a little bit aboutwhat do you want moving forward.
(07:33):
Like, what are you excitedabout the most Postpartum birth,
all of it?
Natalie Evans (07:38):
All of it.
I'm so excited for all of itand I'm kind of trusting what's
to come.
Yes, yeah, I'm just I'm excited.
I don't know what to expectmoving forward and life is
always going to pivot and shift,but I just can't wait to hold
people and hold space for them.
Yeah, and like, I lovepostpartum work as well.
Postpartum, we put so much prepinto our birth and then we're
(08:01):
like whoa, I need helppostpartum too prep into our
birth, and then we're like whoa,I need help, postpartum too.
Deborah (08:09):
Yeah, I always find that what have you done to
prepare for postpartum?
Not too much, really.
My nursery's ready, mynursery's ready, all my clothing
is washed yeah, but really formom.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
It's like I just want to hold all the new moms and
tell them they're doing great.
Because in the thick of it,when you're in it, you're like,
especially your first timearound, you're like what am I
doing?
Natalie Evans (08:28):
yeah, and with no sleep.
The second guessing, theimposter syndrome the hell of I
know sits in so much bigger.
Yeah, but you get a goodnight's sleep and you're told
you're doing great.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Yeah, it's important yeah, and your instincts are
also right.
Like I'll get texts like Ithought it was this way and like
I'm googling, like I'm lookinginto it more.
I'm like, no, your first waywas the right way, and like
you're doing it.
So I really want to help peoplelike tap into their instincts
too, because, like with socialmedia and google and having all
this info, it's amazing.
(09:03):
But it's too much, too much andit just pulls us further from
our innate knowing.
We know how to mother ourchildren, so I'm excited for it
all.
Natalie Evans (09:13):
I just want to support as many families as I
can and let moms know they'rerocking it so far, besides your
own birth, because I do feellike my own births are my most
special and memorable.
But what is one moment in birthwhether it's your experience
with a birth that you'veattended, or a story that we've
(09:34):
debriefed, or with anotherperson's story but what is it
that is like, really fires youup, makes you want to take on
the world?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Oh, what doesn't fire me up and get me excited?
Natalie Evans (09:50):
There's got to be one thing that you've seen or
heard that makes you say I needto hang on to that because that
needs to be a part of my why.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Honestly, I'd say the first birth I supported was
with you and not to get into toomuch detail, but this mom
really had to fight for what shewanted.
She really had to advocate forherself.
She had to fight.
She didn't have to fight.
Natalie Evans (10:13):
She had to fight.
So the story that you'retalking about is the double
feedback Double feedback and alot of people don't know that
you can go after that and a lotof people don't fully understand
why you would.
But the risk is told to youthat going after a vaginal birth
, after cesarean, it's double,and it is.
It is double, but it is 0.5 thefirst time, and so that makes
(10:35):
it 1% out of 200, which is notthat big of a risk.
But to me it could be a reallyhigh risk.
To you it could be a very mildrisk.
It really just depends on whatthe mom wants.
But she did.
She fought hard and she got andI want to say this lightly, but
she got shoved down, pusheddown and so much pushback as she
(10:59):
was fighting for that, and Ilove that.
Her OB said listen, you reallywant this, you have to hire a
doula.
Yeah, which is really powerful,absolutely so.
Is it that she fought for itand she got it, or is it that we
had to step into the majorapplication role?
Is that what fired you up?
Or is it the fact that shedelivered vaginally?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I think the fact she got it and she pushed for what
she needed, because we can bethere to teach all the advocacy,
yes, and we can go in there andsupport it, yes, but at the end
of the day, that mom has to bethe one to really put her feet
down and say no.
I'm doing this so like whenthat baby came out, yeah, and
(11:46):
then just watching her reactionand then her just like being in
after I was like this is whylike this is yeah, do you still
talk to her occasionally?
Natalie Evans (11:50):
yeah, yeah, she promotes everything on my social
media.
It could be anything she'llshare all my stuff too, like
when I finally announced that Iwas a doula to the world, she
was yeah yeah, but and it'sthose moments that you give
somebody their power right theywill credit us over and over
that we're the reason she gotthat.
I didn't do shit.
(12:10):
No, we were just there.
I showed up and told her thatshe could literally here you go,
this is what you need to say,this is what you can have.
And she had to do all the hardwork I do.
I do think it's funny when theycredit me or credit oh yeah,
it's like I didn't do nothing.
No, I was just here.
Yeah, you did all the hard work.
I do think it's funny when theycredit me or credit us it's
like I didn't do nothing.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
No, I was just here.
You did all the work, exactly,exactly.
Natalie Evans (12:32):
Yeah, I do have special thoughts about that
birth as well, so I'm gladthat's a part of your why and
that's what keeps you fired up.
I'm really happy that's thestory that gets you fired up.
I want to talk about what doestrust mean in the birth room and
what does it really mean tohold space and this came up
(12:52):
yesterday in another talk that Ihad, and so let's just talk
about it.
It doesn't have to be just youanswering.
I don't want to put you on thespot, because holding space
really means holding space.
But what does trust mean foryou in the birth room?
Because we did talk about thatearlier.
Right, we talked about that.
You need to find someone thatyou can fully be vulnerable with
, and what does that look likeand how do you plan on building
(13:15):
that with someone?
Speaker 3 (13:17):
I think just showing up and fully listening.
Natalie Evans (13:20):
For a home birth for me, I do a little bit more
work and I make sure that I.
You know, I'm look, I'mbuilding a space where the mom
can let go with me, andsometimes that's easy for me
because they're on my massagetable.
Yeah, I watch it happen.
Exactly, I see it happen andI'm like I know at that point I
can tap into that.
Yeah, but a lot of doulas asdoulas, we do two prenatal
(13:41):
visits.
What is we do two prenatalvisits?
What do we do?
What can we do?
How will we do it in thatmoment?
And so it's the same.
It's with your kids, it's thesame idea.
So I think that's what I'mtrying to ask.
What are our skill set?
What have we been taught asdoulas?
To build trust.
And you already said it.
You said just listening, doingwhat she wants, even though we
(14:03):
may have our own bias.
Yeah, it's not about us.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
We leave our bias at the door, yeah, and we just
trust that she knows what sheneeds.
Yes, and just advocate for thatat the end of the day, fully
being on her team, yeah, and notmaking any little oh, what
about trying this?
Or X, y and Z?
It's no, we're're gonna do ityour way.
(14:29):
Yeah, and like just holdingthat energy throughout the whole
time and I always like to givea nice warm hug if they're
huggers, like.
I just really try and keep thateye contact, like really listen
and being fully present withthem.
Yeah, because I find that thismight just be for me.
But, as expected, moms, you'reexcited, you're like want to
share, like your plans and thisand that, and people just
(14:51):
they're not really listening.
And you're like, ok, I'm goingthrough this huge moment in my
life and you're not evenlistening to me as I talk to you
.
Natalie Evans (15:00):
I need you to hear how many times I've peed
today.
And it is true, that is a partof building trust, right?
Yeah, I think in your prenatalvisit you will work on that.
Yeah, I think that trust issomething that you continue to
build throughout the wholerelationship, even in the birth
space and after the birth space,and I think the first time that
(15:20):
you show up for that person ina true, genuine way, the trust
is started.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, I agree, yeah Isthere something that is driving
you to make change as a doula.
Ooh, there's so much, I thinkmy big thing is like I really
want birth to be something thatwomen do and not something that
(15:44):
happens to them.
Oh, my OB is letting me do this, or my OB won't let me go past
39 weeks, or my mid, whateverwon't let me.
No, you call the shots here.
This is your journey and we'regoing to shape it to how you
want it, and we'll go throughall the risks versus benefits
and discuss what questions toask or how to go around what
(16:06):
rules your OB has.
Natalie Evans (16:08):
But yeah, that's probably what really drives me,
the biggest change maker thatyou want.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah, the biggest.
I just want women to feelempowered in their birth and
things come up during birth.
Things always come up.
It's being in charge of how wego from there right and like in
the right ways.
Natalie Evans (16:26):
yeah your birth plan is going to change.
You can make a birth plan untilthe cows come home and you can
have it minute by minute brokendown, but you have to pivot.
You have to be able to pivotfrom every single space, and
whatever it is that you have onyour paper, you have to be able
to pivot from it, becauseanything can change, and so not
being able to pivot makes itreally challenging to have true
(16:48):
physiological birth, for sure.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Yeah, I think just I talked to so many women about
just their experience andthere's a lot of trauma and
there's a lot of things thathappened to them that they
didn't want to happen, a lot ofthings that happened to them
that they didn't want to happen.
No, and I think we just need tolike normalize, like informed
consent, getting all the deetsand actually being walked
(17:12):
through, like it takes twoseconds to walk someone through
hey, we're gonna do this, ifthat's okay, or we can try this.
But yeah, I really want, I wantwomen to take control and I just
want women to feel held.
And yeah, because it's sobrushed off like childbirth,
postpartum.
It's so brushed off likeeveryone's so excited.
You tell them you're pregnantoh, my gosh, like I'm so happy
(17:34):
blah, blah, blah.
And then you birth this wholechild, yeah, and then it's
crickets, yeah, or can't wait tocome meet the baby, and then
mom's not held.
So it's really just.
I just want to hold the whole.
Natalie Evans (17:47):
I was talking to a pelvic floor physio last week
and we were talking about that.
You know, as medicalpractitioners like and with a
clinical practice, how do wesupport the postpartum phase,
and something that I've createdis I do like a postpartum
six-week guide.
So basically, this is yourguide to your six-week checkup
(18:07):
and she says she does somethingsimilar, but she sees them at
the five-week mark and then ifthere's anything going on they
can bring it to their OBGYN andthen they're not discharged from
their care.
Because if you do getdischarged at that six-week and
they didn't do an internal checkand something's wrong, too bad,
you have to wait, then you haveto get another referral.
(18:28):
But if you get that five-weekcheckup with a pelvic floor
physiotherapist, so she's likeno, you see me at five weeks
before you go to see your OB.
And I'm like, oh my God, thatis so brilliant, it's perfect.
But as clinical practitionersand as doulas, we need to
prepare moms for that so thatthey can get what they need
postpartum.
(18:48):
But it's like hacking thesystem and it's terrible that we
have to do that.
One of my moms called meyesterday and she said to me do
you know anything about if Iwanted to meet with an OB here
in the city?
She had a specific one in mind.
I want to talk to them.
I'm not pregnant and I want totalk to them about what the plan
(19:08):
is for me moving forward,because she's had two very
medically high risk pregnanciesand they've been almost exactly
the same and now she's thinkingabout having another child.
But she wants to know howthey're going to track
everything to make sure nothinggoes wrong.
I said to her I don't know.
You can call them and ask ifyou can meet with them.
(19:28):
And the receptionist saidabsolutely not.
You can't get in to see usuntil you're pregnant.
I will pay out of my pocket.
Nope, he doesn't do that.
I'm like so you can't eveninterview them?
No, you can't even get to knowhow they would support you until
you're actually expecting.
But she wants to know beforeshe actually is expecting,
(19:50):
because she wants to know ifthat's the path for her to
actually have another child ornot.
Wow, yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
That is so upsetting to hear.
Natalie Evans (19:57):
That is so upsetting.
Meanwhile we're doing free beangreens.
Not that we're medicalprofessionals, but yeah, Wow.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
You get to meet me, you get to say no, you get, yeah
, it is such a disservice andinterviewing your care practice
like your primary care physicianis key in having the birth you
want, in my opinion.
Natalie Evans (20:16):
Also, nobody also thinks about the fact that you
can go online and you can lookup their actual file.
Yeah, like every medicalpractitioner who has a license.
Please, if you hear nothingelse about this interview,
please hear this that you can goonline, same as me.
You can go to the College ofMassage Therapists of Ontario.
Type in my name, debra Kuhn,with CDs, and it'll tell you if
(20:38):
I've ever had a restriction onmy license.
And there is a restriction onmy license.
I was late payment for myrenewal what the heck, debra?
In 2013.
And so it says it on there.
It says suspended.
Is that you?
We're so busy.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
We're on call.
I'm on call for a birth, so Ididn't shut my phone off
completely.
Natalie Evans (21:01):
Yes, sorry, no that's part of it.
I think that's important forpeople to know.
We both have our phones onbecause we're on call.
Anyway, it was 2013 and I gotmy license suspended for just
that overnight.
But yeah so it says it on mylicense and people don't think
about that.
You ask your friends who's thebest OB.
Also, if their birth is notsomething that you want for
(21:23):
yourself, why would you see thesame OB?
Absolutely.
But you can find it out just bygoing to their governing body.
You can find it out by theMidwives of.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Ontario.
You can.
That's what I was going to ask.
Yes, and.
Natalie Evans (21:32):
Corey talks about that.
So much, check out my file.
Yeah, midwives of Ontario,every nurse has a two.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Oh, I didn't know, nurses did too.
Natalie Evans (21:41):
Yes, so very important when you're on the L&D
floor, to get their name ontheir badge so that if you do
have a problem with them, youcan report it.
It's important that women knowthat they can do that.
It was something that I wastalking about with a detective
yesterday and, yeah, she's justin my circle.
We were talking about informedconsent, having your sexual
(22:04):
integrity compromised, and shewas talking about birth.
She's a mom herself and howgiving birth and being
traumatized in birth can set youup to have your sexual
integrity compromised in othersituations.
We were talking about inregards to massage therapy.
But think about how they don'task for consent to check you and
(22:25):
they just dive in.
I'm going to check you now andthen all of a sudden, you're on
a massage table and you get yourbreasts accidentally grazed and
you're super uncomfortable, butyou're like, yeah, big deal.
I'm okay with that happening,because I also had my vagina
checked last month and nobodyasked me for permission then.
So I guess this might be normal, this is the norm.
(22:45):
Yeah, isn't that devastating?
Yeah, like, when you comparethe two, I'm not saying having
your breast grazed in massagetherapy is the same as being
cervically checked withoutpermission, but we were talking
about how you can just learn tosuppress those feelings of
discomfort and asking forinformed consent as a massage
(23:07):
therapist like those things.
It needs to be addressed in themoment.
Like I accidentally grazed yourbreasts, I'm going to give you
a minute.
Are you okay for me to continue?
Are you uncomfortable?
Like it has to be addressed inthe moment and I will tell you
right now.
Breast tissue on the massagetable postpartum when your
breasts are engorged, it's likeTetris anyway.
(23:29):
So I think it's interesting howthat whole clinical practice of
how they run their businessreally affects healing
postpartum Absolutely, and Ithink it's important for women
know the hacks to get around it.
So if anybody has questionsabout what I just suggested and
that physiotherapist, pleasereach out to us, send us a
(23:51):
message through fan mail or,obviously, through our social
media.
All right, let's get back toyou, natalie.
Okay, tell me a little bitabout how you care for yourself
after birth, because this is soimportant for people to
understand how heavy like ourwork is.
Like nothing else, I feel likeI have the best job in the
(24:11):
entire world.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah, it can be even on the easy, even on the most
beautiful, the most alignedbirths, yeah, there's still that
debriefing that needs to happenand coming down that, like my
first birth, I supported.
I was riding a high for a week,yeah, and once I came down, I
was like I need to like debriefthis birth.
Yeah, and I think that's huge.
(24:33):
Yes, you actually told me likewhen we first started chatting,
you were like you need a goodtherapist.
Yeah, you were like I call mineon my way to my birth.
I'm like we, we're gonna haveto debrief soon.
Yeah, and that's huge.
Yeah, debriefing and havingcolleagues to chat with.
Like you, I spoke with you aboutthat birth and but whatever,
yeah, so I'm full-time mom so Iget back from a birth.
(24:57):
I'm right back in mom mode, soI'm usually trying to set up
child care.
Yeah, so either a meme or myauntie comes over so I can get
some rest.
Yeah, because I got home at 3am after that birth and Walter
was up at 6 am and I was like,okay, let's be a great mom today
(25:17):
, no sleep.
So, yeah, trying to fill my cupup in that sense where I'm
getting some rest and feelingsome support from family or my
partner.
But yeah, you can't pour froman empty cup, especially for 12,
13 hours.
No, that's right.
Natalie Evans (25:34):
And actually, if you really think about that, you
know that birth was a lotlonger than that right.
We got there like at 8 am andwe didn't get home until 3.
We're looking at 18, 19 hours.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
And then I think of my birth.
I labored for 36 hours, so likeit could be anywhere.
First time mom, it's likeanywhere from 24 to 38 hours and
if you're there the whole time.
Natalie Evans (25:58):
Yeah, kelly and I talked about this yesterday and
I don't want to do that.
I don't ever want to go for 36hours.
I'm not going to be my freshself and also we can get
triggered.
We can get triggered about thewhole fact that we have that
life at home.
So why, no matter what, after24 hours, I'm going to say at 18
(26:19):
, I'm like it's not that I wantto tap out, I'm in it.
Yeah, I don't want to.
You would have to drag me away.
But I feel like being able tobring in another doula or a
fresh set of eyes to say what amI missing?
Yeah, I've done this, I've donethis, I've done this.
This is clinically what'shappening.
What am I missing?
Yeah, and have someone be ableto like feedback and play
(26:49):
devil's advocate with thesituation and what's happening,
to make fresher suggestions.
I feel like that's somethingthat I have wanted my whole
doula career and have nottechnically had until now here
and there, a few people thathave popped in but not stayed
and I really feel like havingthe agency and the collective is
really going to help us withthat.
Oh yeah.
So yeah, having a therapist isso important.
(27:11):
I was at a birth one time Ididn't go back to birth.
For eight months.
I had people that I was oncontract with and nothing really
went wrong.
It was it didn't go textbookand I was still a fresh doula
and there was no fatalities orno death or anything like that.
It was just that I was nervousand scared and I got triggered
(27:35):
for sure.
Eight months I didn't go backto.
I had people on contract that Isaid no to, gave them back
their money, helped them findanother doula and I think at
that time if I had a reallygreat therapist, maybe I
wouldn't have needed eightmonths because I was doing it.
I had a therapist but weweren't talking about that.
But I really love that we havethat for each other.
(27:55):
I love doing that with Coreybecause she can medically show
me what was happening in eyesthat I don't always see.
So I do think that it'simportant.
What's your favorite food after, I don't know, I guess not just
coming home from a birth, buteven after late night or
whatever.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
You know, what I love me is a bagel sub Like from.
Natalie Evans (28:20):
Subway.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Firehouse subs.
Natalie Evans (28:22):
Firehouse subs.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
The hook and ladder sub at Firehouse.
Yeah, I love.
I think after my favorite likesnacks for during labor is an RX
bar energy bowl in every doulabag.
Yeah every doula bag is an RXbar yeah, but no big old sub if
I can make it and they're openwhen I leave.
(28:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Natalie Evans (28:47):
I used to always do penalty box.
I was right next to her.
Yeah, I don't know why.
Someone brought it to me afterI had my first kid, so good yeah
.
And also my husband fed pizzato the whole labor and delivery
floor, but I'm not a big fan ofpizza.
Okay, pizza to the whole laborand delivery floor, but I'm not
(29:07):
a big fan of pizza and so didn'tget anything for me.
But the whole floor got fed.
It was just a slip.
And I don't know if you've everseen at Zare's they have these
macaroon cookies.
They're like the coconut andsome of them have like chocolate
on them.
Somebody brought a tray ofthose and because I couldn't eat
pizza, I ate like 25 of those.
It was bad.
Poor kid's breast milk musthave been like loaded with
(29:29):
coconut.
Delicious I don't even think shelikes coconut now.
Deborah (29:33):
We ruined it for her.
Natalie Evans (29:36):
That's funny.
That's funny.
Okay, I want to ask you aboutwhat has it meant to you to be a
part of our team?
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Oh, it's been such a privilege.
Having you to lean on and beingmentored by you feels like such
a privilege, yeah, and gettingto know Kelly, like our
relationship is still growing.
But I think just having otherdoulas to lean on and knowing
I'm struggling right now with X,y and Z or I need some support
here.
(30:04):
And it's let's come up with aplan together.
Yes, yeah, that sense ofcommunity and I think that's
what's lacking in the doulaworld is not having other doulas
to lean on.
Do you think that's aboutcompetition?
Natalie Evans (30:16):
I don't know.
I don't know.
Or is it that alreadyestablished doulas are not
willing to do the work withoutgetting paid?
Yeah, it's hard to say, becauseI do think it's fair that
everybody gets paid.
I think everyone should getpaid Absolutely, but also some
of it.
If anyone ever asked me,deborah, can I pick your brain
(30:39):
on something, I would say tothem yeah, tell me in five weeks
what your schedule looks likeand I will find time for you.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Yeah.
Natalie Evans (30:47):
I can't do it last minute.
That's just not a part of myworld anymore.
Yeah, Because of my familyfirst of all, but also now the
doula agency.
So I'm on call for that all thetime.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
But yeah, yeah, I think it's also a level of not
knowing that there's otherdoulas.
Like when I first started out,I thought I knew of maybe three
or four doulas in the area, yeah, and then, once you get into
the world, I was like whoa,there's 25 of us, yes, so I
think for me it was like notknowing, yes, and not having the
those connections made.
Yeah, but yeah, it could alsobe like a competition thing.
(31:21):
I think it takes a lot of.
You have to hold a lot of spaceas well.
You being in your role thatyou're in right now, like with
kelly and I, it's you'recarrying a lot of space for us,
yeah, and for all of ourquestions, and I've reached out
to you, send you a voice noteand then you get back to me.
yeah, of course, it's also likeyou've committed to that, like
not everyone thinks you can holdthat space for other dealers as
(31:43):
well yeah, no, especially ifthey're still in it.
Natalie Evans (32:03):
Doing it full time, yeah, and then holding
space for it?
Yeah, absolutely what we needmore of.
Or can we go about this in adifferent way?
Right, and how do we makechange at the bottom line
instead of because right now,we're making change one mom at a
time?
Yeah, I'm slowly working onother things behind the scenes,
but I wouldn't be able to dothat if you guys weren't working
(32:25):
on the mothers one at a timeand we also wouldn't be able to
take on as many moms as we aretaking on.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
No, if we didn't have us as a group like I know how
many I can take on in a time.
Like you know, there's only somuch one doula can do.
That's when there's three of us.
Yes, however much we decide togrow, yeah, you can just take on
that many more clients so wecan reach that many more
families.
So I think at the end of theday, it's really bringing us
(32:52):
back to where we want to be andit kind of brings us back to our
why yes, and why we are doulasis to help as many families and
women as we can.
I think that this just reallysets us up for that.
Natalie Evans (33:05):
I do.
I do too.
That's why I started there.
Yeah, tell me something thatyou wish, besides someone to
mentor them, what do you wishmore doulas had access to in
their own practices?
Do you think the most, thebiggest change maker for
yourself and your doula practice, is having someone who's
already walked the path?
Or is it a skill set?
(33:26):
Or is it education?
What is it that you feel thatyou wish more doulas had?
Speaker 3 (33:35):
I can only speak for myself.
I did my training online.
Most doula trainings that Ifound were online, yes, so I
think having that hands-onpractical yes space to practice,
especially with someone who'sbeen doing it for 20 years, yeah
, so that was huge.
Our comfort measures, trainingthat we did, or workshop, that
(33:55):
was such an awesome class.
Oh my gosh, it was amazing andI feel so much more prepared
going in.
I felt prepared before, butthen I'm like whoa, this just
topped it off.
Natalie Evans (34:05):
Yeah, just hand placement softening your body to
hold their body right.
Instead of I'm here, let mejust touch you all over your
body.
Yeah, did you like that?
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Did you like this?
No?
Natalie Evans (34:16):
Yeah, like it's such a fine skill to learn and
it's definitely not taught wellin the virtual class.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
No, and like they do their best at least with Dona
they did such a great job, likemy trainer was amazing, but it's
still not the same.
It's still not the same.
It's still not the same, no.
So I think that, yeah, havingthe space to actually practice
what we're learning and alsojust having that shoulder to
lean on, it's like hey, I'm inthis situation, what?
Deborah (34:42):
should I do here.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Yeah, if I like knowing I can call you mid-birth
and be like hey, we're stalled.
We've tried x, y and z, yeahwhat am I missing?
Natalie Evans (34:50):
what am I?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
missing and then to have you be like oh, I, I try
leaning forward a version orwhatever.
Natalie Evans (34:55):
Yeah, or I don't know, I can't think straight.
Let me call my support system.
Yeah, and then that's what Ilove.
There's so many connectionsthat I've made in the city that
I've made those late night phonecalls saying I need help.
Yeah, a pharmacist, can I givethe mom this?
What can I do here?
She's on this.
She has mastitis.
Can we give Tylenol, any ofthose things?
(35:18):
Medically, that is not worthgoing to the ER five days
postpartum, 4 am, exactly.
Yeah, you need a team for thatstuff and I really love that.
I have that and I'm reallyhappy to be able to share that
in the agency.
All right, so you're sittingwith a pregnant person, maybe
someone in their third trimester, unsure of what's ahead.
(35:41):
What would you say to them?
What do you want every birthingperson to hear?
Your body?
Speaker 3 (35:46):
and baby are wise and know what they're doing and
they're working together to getthis baby on the other side.
And it's hard.
You're big, you feel big,everything hurts, you're
uncomfortable.
But last call for epithelial Ilove her induction.
But, yeah, just trust your baby, trust your body and you're
(36:09):
gonna.
You're gonna have your baby inyour arms so soon.
Yeah, yeah, and you're going toget to step into this new role.
That's awesome, yeah.
Natalie Evans (36:15):
I have a mom right now.
She's a few days overdue andwe're messaging every day, two
or three times a day, and she'snot my doula client, she's one
of my clinical patients and Ijust love her.
I love that she's not afraid toask me anything in a text
message and I wish every womancould do that.
(36:37):
I might not have a contractwith you, but if I can answer a
question for you, please send methe text message.
Also, we're starting to hostthis Doula Deborah on Demand and
I feel like that's a lot ofwhat people could use.
Her question to me yesterday wasI just want to trust my body on
this one, like I went with themedical system.
(37:01):
I went with a medical systemsuggesting my last pregnancy and
I really just want to trust mybody on this pregnancy and I'm
like are you asking me foradvice on how to safely say no
to an induction?
And I get all caps yes, and sosometimes it's just about that.
It's about at 39 weeks, 40weeks, 41 weeks, whatever it is
(37:23):
that you are, there's no way anydoula is going to ask you to
risk your baby.
What we want you to know is anoption, is that if you are
comfortable.
We can help guide you throughgetting through one or two more
days and if there's nothingmedically wrong with you or baby
, then having a conversationwith your primary care provider
(37:47):
is something that you can makehappen so that you feel that
it's safe to go one or two moredays and we can guide you on
that.
I talk about it all over myInstagram, I talk about it all
over my podcast as well, and Italk about it in the clinic
every single day.
But at the end of the day, it'sthe mom's choice and if she's
uncomfortable and they wave thewhite induction flag, it's
(38:07):
pretty tempting.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
And be able to pick your day.
Yeah, I want to meet my babythis day and I totally get that
For myself.
Just going back, I went intolabor at 42 weeks.
I started 42 weeks on the dotand I was going wild that last
two weeks.
I would wake up every morning,curb, walk, walk around the
(38:29):
block a few times, balleverything, everything and I was
driving myself crazy and Ididn't enjoy those last few
weeks because I was so focusedon trying to put yourself trying
to put myself into labor andthe one day that I finally
surrendered to it is the day mywater broke.
I'd go into the hospital for myultrasounds.
(38:49):
They were checking, they weredoing a stress test and checking
the placenta and amniotic fluid, because I'm running out of
fluid and whatnot?
Natalie Evans (38:56):
biophysical profile biophysical profile.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
So, yeah, I did that.
I did three of those in my lastweek just to get them off me,
because I was like keep doingthese, because I'm not getting
induced.
Yeah, and every time I stepfoot into the hospital they're
like why don't you just get in?
But, like the pressure behindit, they were like why are you
still pregnant?
Yeah, like because I'm good,yeah, my baby's good, I'm good
(39:20):
and I'm like how's my test?
How'd my test come back?
And it was like perfect, yeah,so you also have that outside
pressure.
It's like my neighbors acrossthe street, you're still
pregnant.
I'd be like I'm going to fightyou right here.
But yeah, there's that outsidepressure and I think when we
just come back into our bodiesand talk to your baby, talk to
(39:42):
yeah, and just really stayrooted in your body is wise,
your baby is wise and you guyswill figure this out, yeah, I
love that.
Natalie Evans (39:51):
That's great advice for anyone in their last
weeks of pregnancy.
All right, I want to dosomething a little bit fun.
Okay, quick fire round.
Whatever comes to mind.
What's the essential item inyour doula bag?
My hands, literally my hands,yeah, same.
Not in my doula bag, no.
So your go-to comfort foodafter a long birth?
We long birth.
(40:15):
We already know that legal suba birth mantra you love my baby,
and body are wise, yeah, loveit the most surprising thing
you've learned as a doula.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Oh, what is the most surprising thing I've learned as
a doula?
I think a lot of the stats,like a lot of the statistics
around, like cesarean rates,breastfeeding rates in lidsor
estates county, like I think alot of those, yeah, are
surprising, are surprising.
Natalie Evans (40:32):
People are always shocked when I fire those out.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Yeah.
Natalie Evans (40:35):
And your favorite part of supporting someone in
labor.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
Oh, watching them step into their primal yeah,
that primal part of labor.
Yeah when they really just getinto it.
It's like you're awesome.
Natalie Evans (40:45):
Yeah, you're like okay, we're in it, now we?
Yeah, that's awesome.
Natalie, thank you so much forshowing up with so much truth
and tenderness today.
It's doulas like you who remindus that birth work isn't just
about contractions and pushing,and it's new doulas like you
that show me and teach me allabout the fire.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Thank you.
Natalie Evans (41:06):
So if you're listening and thinking, I want
someone like Natalie at my birthhead to the link in our show
notes to learn more about ourteam at Pelvic Love Doula Agency
, and you can find Natalie atPureEssenceDoulaCare on
Instagram.
And until next time.
Thank you so much for beingwith us today, and I will talk
(41:28):
to you all soon.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Thank you so much.
Deborah (41:30):
Talk to you soon.
Okay, let's all soon.
Thank you so much.
Talk to you soon.
Okay, let's talk soon.
Hey Mamas, you're listening to Tend and Befriend,
a podcast about women's mentaland physical health.
This is Debra.
I'm a mom of two, a labor andbirth coach and birth advocate,
a health professional, and todayI'm your host.
Let's dive into today's episode.
Any information you hear orthat is suggested or recommended
(00:35):
on these episodes is notmedical advice.
Natalie Evans (00:42):
Hi everyone, welcome to Tend and Befriend.
I'm Debra, your host, yourdoula, your slightly tired but
still fired up birth worker, andtoday I have the joy of
introducing you to someone whosewarmth and strength I admire so
deeply Natalie Evans, one ofthe wonderful doulas in our
Pelvic Love Doula Agency.
Natalie brings a quiet powerand unwavering care to her
(01:03):
clients, and today we're goingto talk about why she does this
work, how she holds space andwhat she's learned walking
beside birthing families.
Natalie, thank you so much forbeing here, thanks so much for
having me.
Tell me a little bit aboutyourself, who you are, your
family, your friends, whereyou're from.
I live in Stony Point.
(01:23):
I have a son.
He's going to be two inNovember, which is crazy.
My partner and I have beentogether 10 years.
We have a dog, which isbeautiful and crazy and I
recently in January I took theplunge and did my doula training
and I sat with it for so longbefore and I was like this is
(01:46):
what I'm meant to be doing, so Iam doing that.
I resigned from my regular jobat 18 months postpartum and I
told them I'm not coming backand yeah, here I am.
Yeah, yeah, when you say you saton it for a little while, what
does that mean?
Even before I got pregnant, Ihave this awe of birth.
(02:09):
What women go throughpostpartum, that period as well.
It was like this little tug inthe back of my mind like, do
this, do this?
Like this little whisper, and Iwould shut it down for so long
I was like, oh, that's not forme.
And then, once I had my son, itjust I couldn't ignore it.
It was you wanted it, I wantedit, and I had all these little
(02:32):
signs and yeah, and then I justdid it and I'm so happy I did
what was your first introductionto a doula?
Deborah (02:40):
was it when you got pregnant?
Or obviously you knew about it,but you're saying it was
tugging at you.
What was your firstintroduction to like doula work
or a birth worker?
I want to say just doula work,because a birth worker is, you
know, is very vast.
Natalie Evans (02:54):
Yeah, I think when I was just prepping for,
like, my delivery, I wanted avery natural experience.
Physiological birth was what Iwas going for.
I dove into all the podcastsand everything, and in every
podcast everyone was like mydoula, my doula.
So in all the birth stories Iwas listening to, it was my
doula this, my doula that.
So I'm like Google.
(03:14):
I think I need one of these formy birth.
How?
do you get one of these things?
Yeah, that's awesome.
That's usually when most peoplefind them right One day, or if
they've known there's one intheir circle of friends.
Yes, before you have a childthat's usually when you find it
is when you're pregnant.
Yeah, and how are you feelingabout it so far into your
(03:35):
journey?
It's amazing, yeah, and it'ssuch a privilege and just an
honor and it's not something Itake lightly To be welcomed into
someone oh, I get emotionalI've been talking about it, but
like to be welcomed intosomeone's birth space during
this like huge transitionalmoment in your life yeah, like
you're in your most vulnerable,raw state, and to welcome
(03:57):
someone to hold you.
Yeah, I get chills Now sayingthat.
Do you feel like you might haveknown that before you had a
baby or after you have a baby?
You really feel that more?
I think it took me having achild and going through it
(04:17):
myself.
Yes, to really feel it more,but I did always feel it.
It was always there, but ittook me going through it.
But as the recipient of thatinviting someone in.
So, as a birthing person, doyou feel that it's such a sacred
space to invite someone into?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
(04:38):
I was very picky and choosyabout who I welcomed into my
birth space, like your vibe.
Yeah, I love you so much, butyou're not welcome.
I love you, you can come after,but to be in the thick of it,
yes, yeah.
I was very picky and choosy.
I think that's really importantto talk about because I have
had in the past I used to hostthese doula nights at wellness
(05:01):
center that I used to work atwhen I first started practicing
these doula nights at wellnesscenter that I used to work at
when I first started practicingand we had the open house.
You could meet all thepractitioners and I was there as
a doula and I ended up meetingthis group of people that wanted
to meet with me after.
And one of the girls that Iactually met with that night has
(05:23):
been a town crier of mine sincethen.
Like she's had two kids with meand she still refers to me.
But there was one person, onecouple, that I met with
privately.
They all wanted a meet andgreet, because I always start
with a meet and greet.
I think it's important to feelthe person's energy and I just
felt so uncomfortable in theirspace and I don't know what it
(05:44):
was Like.
I can't tell you what it was.
I just felt like there is noway I'm going to be able to
quiet that part of me that feelsthis like discomfort, to be
able to give her what she needs,and I do think that's a skill
you learn the more you're in thebirth space and also as you get
a little bit older, to softenyour personality, to make
(06:05):
somebody else's shine.
And I obviously wasn't verygood at it at that time.
But I said, I just don't feelthe connection and I'm really
sorry but I don't think I'm theright doula for you.
Here's a couple of numbers.
And the mom was so hurt, shecried and I felt so bad and so
guilty.
And I have done it a couple ofother times after that as well,
(06:26):
but that was like my first timeand I still think about it.
I can still see her face.
I can still see her tears, butI really didn't think I could
show up for them.
And I do think that reading theenergy of the person who's
coming into that space with youis really, really important.
But I don't think a lot ofpeople do the meet and greets
(06:47):
with that in mind.
Yeah, because they just want tosay yes, everyone.
Just want, like your first,someone reaches out to you to
support them.
You want to be like yeah, andalso vice versa, vice versa,
yeah.
Vice versa You're sitting andyou're like this doula's
credentials is beautiful, shehas the experience and so I want
her without saying.
Can we go for a walk and a teato see if I'm the right fit for
(07:09):
you?
Yeah, yeah, see if you canreally soften into that person.
Deborah (07:13):
Yeah , if you can't be fully wild,
messy, vulnerable, then yourbirthing hormones are going to
be disrupted during birth forsure, yeah, yeah, I think that's
a very valid point, absolutelyOkay.
So tell me a little bit aboutwhat do you want moving forward.
(07:33):
Like, what are you excitedabout the most Postpartum birth,
all of it?
Natalie Evans (07:38):
All of it.
I'm so excited for all of itand I'm kind of trusting what's
to come.
Yes, yeah, I'm just I'm excited.
I don't know what to expectmoving forward and life is
always going to pivot and shift,but I just can't wait to hold
people and hold space for them.
Yeah, and like, I lovepostpartum work as well.
Postpartum, we put so much prepinto our birth and then we're
(08:01):
like whoa, I need helppostpartum too prep into our
birth, and then we're like whoa,I need help, postpartum too.
Deborah (08:09):
Yeah, I always find that what have you done to
prepare for postpartum?
Not too much, really.
My nursery's ready, mynursery's ready, all my clothing
is washed yeah, but really formom.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
It's like I just want to hold all the new moms and
tell them they're doing great.
Because in the thick of it,when you're in it, you're like,
especially your first timearound, you're like what am I
doing?
Natalie Evans (08:28):
yeah, and with no sleep.
The second guessing, theimposter syndrome the hell of I
know sits in so much bigger.
Yeah, but you get a goodnight's sleep and you're told
you're doing great.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Yeah, it's important yeah, and your instincts are
also right.
Like I'll get texts like Ithought it was this way and like
I'm googling, like I'm lookinginto it more.
I'm like, no, your first waywas the right way, and like
you're doing it.
So I really want to help peoplelike tap into their instincts
too, because, like with socialmedia and google and having all
this info, it's amazing.
(09:03):
But it's too much, too much andit just pulls us further from
our innate knowing.
We know how to mother ourchildren, so I'm excited for it
all.
Natalie Evans (09:13):
I just want to support as many families as I
can and let moms know they'rerocking it so far, besides your
own birth, because I do feellike my own births are my most
special and memorable.
But what is one moment in birthwhether it's your experience
with a birth that you'veattended, or a story that we've
(09:34):
debriefed, or with anotherperson's story but what is it
that is like, really fires youup, makes you want to take on
the world?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Oh, what doesn't fire me up and get me excited?
Natalie Evans (09:50):
There's got to be one thing that you've seen or
heard that makes you say I needto hang on to that because that
needs to be a part of my why.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Honestly, I'd say the first birth I supported was
with you and not to get into toomuch detail, but this mom
really had to fight for what shewanted.
She really had to advocate forherself.
She had to fight.
She didn't have to fight.
Natalie Evans (10:13):
She had to fight.
So the story that you'retalking about is the double
feedback Double feedback and alot of people don't know that
you can go after that and a lotof people don't fully understand
why you would.
But the risk is told to youthat going after a vaginal birth
, after cesarean, it's double,and it is.
It is double, but it is 0.5 thefirst time, and so that makes
(10:35):
it 1% out of 200, which is notthat big of a risk.
But to me it could be a reallyhigh risk.
To you it could be a very mildrisk.
It really just depends on whatthe mom wants.
But she did.
She fought hard and she got andI want to say this lightly, but
she got shoved down, pusheddown and so much pushback as she
(10:59):
was fighting for that, and Ilove that.
Her OB said listen, you reallywant this, you have to hire a
doula.
Yeah, which is really powerful,absolutely so.
Is it that she fought for itand she got it, or is it that we
had to step into the majorapplication role?
Is that what fired you up?
Or is it the fact that shedelivered vaginally?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I think the fact she got it and she pushed for what
she needed, because we can bethere to teach all the advocacy,
yes, and we can go in there andsupport it, yes, but at the end
of the day, that mom has to bethe one to really put her feet
down and say no.
I'm doing this so like whenthat baby came out, yeah, and
(11:46):
then just watching her reactionand then her just like being in
after I was like this is whylike this is yeah, do you still
talk to her occasionally?
Natalie Evans (11:50):
yeah, yeah, she promotes everything on my social
media.
It could be anything she'llshare all my stuff too, like
when I finally announced that Iwas a doula to the world, she
was yeah yeah, but and it'sthose moments that you give
somebody their power right theywill credit us over and over
that we're the reason she gotthat.
I didn't do shit.
(12:10):
No, we were just there.
I showed up and told her thatshe could literally here you go,
this is what you need to say,this is what you can have.
And she had to do all the hardwork I do.
I do think it's funny when theycredit me or credit oh yeah,
it's like I didn't do nothing.
No, I was just here.
Yeah, you did all the hard work.
I do think it's funny when theycredit me or credit us it's
like I didn't do nothing.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
No, I was just here.
You did all the work, exactly,exactly.
Natalie Evans (12:32):
Yeah, I do have special thoughts about that
birth as well, so I'm gladthat's a part of your why and
that's what keeps you fired up.
I'm really happy that's thestory that gets you fired up.
I want to talk about what doestrust mean in the birth room and
what does it really mean tohold space and this came up
(12:52):
yesterday in another talk that Ihad, and so let's just talk
about it.
It doesn't have to be just youanswering.
I don't want to put you on thespot, because holding space
really means holding space.
But what does trust mean foryou in the birth room?
Because we did talk about thatearlier.
Right, we talked about that.
You need to find someone thatyou can fully be vulnerable with
, and what does that look likeand how do you plan on building
(13:15):
that with someone?
Speaker 3 (13:17):
I think just showing up and fully listening.
Natalie Evans (13:20):
For a home birth for me, I do a little bit more
work and I make sure that I.
You know, I'm look, I'mbuilding a space where the mom
can let go with me, andsometimes that's easy for me
because they're on my massagetable.
Yeah, I watch it happen.
Exactly, I see it happen andI'm like I know at that point I
can tap into that.
Yeah, but a lot of doulas asdoulas, we do two prenatal
(13:41):
visits.
What is we do two prenatalvisits?
What do we do?
What can we do?
How will we do it in thatmoment?
And so it's the same.
It's with your kids, it's thesame idea.
So I think that's what I'mtrying to ask.
What are our skill set?
What have we been taught asdoulas?
To build trust.
And you already said it.
You said just listening, doingwhat she wants, even though we
(14:03):
may have our own bias.
Yeah, it's not about us.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
We leave our bias at the door, yeah, and we just
trust that she knows what sheneeds.
Yes, and just advocate for thatat the end of the day, fully
being on her team, yeah, and notmaking any little oh, what
about trying this?
Or X, y and Z?
It's no, we're're gonna do ityour way.
(14:29):
Yeah, and like just holdingthat energy throughout the whole
time and I always like to givea nice warm hug if they're
huggers, like.
I just really try and keep thateye contact, like really listen
and being fully present withthem.
Yeah, because I find that thismight just be for me.
But, as expected, moms, you'reexcited, you're like want to
share, like your plans and thisand that, and people just
(14:51):
they're not really listening.
And you're like, ok, I'm goingthrough this huge moment in my
life and you're not evenlistening to me as I talk to you
.
Natalie Evans (15:00):
I need you to hear how many times I've peed
today.
And it is true, that is a partof building trust, right?
Yeah, I think in your prenatalvisit you will work on that.
Yeah, I think that trust issomething that you continue to
build throughout the wholerelationship, even in the birth
space and after the birth space,and I think the first time that
(15:20):
you show up for that person ina true, genuine way, the trust
is started.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, I agree, yeah Isthere something that is driving
you to make change as a doula.
Ooh, there's so much, I thinkmy big thing is like I really
want birth to be something thatwomen do and not something that
(15:44):
happens to them.
Oh, my OB is letting me do this, or my OB won't let me go past
39 weeks, or my mid, whateverwon't let me.
No, you call the shots here.
This is your journey and we'regoing to shape it to how you
want it, and we'll go throughall the risks versus benefits
and discuss what questions toask or how to go around what
(16:06):
rules your OB has.
Natalie Evans (16:08):
But yeah, that's probably what really drives me,
the biggest change maker thatyou want.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah, the biggest.
I just want women to feelempowered in their birth and
things come up during birth.
Things always come up.
It's being in charge of how wego from there right and like in
the right ways.
Natalie Evans (16:26):
yeah your birth plan is going to change.
You can make a birth plan untilthe cows come home and you can
have it minute by minute brokendown, but you have to pivot.
You have to be able to pivotfrom every single space, and
whatever it is that you have onyour paper, you have to be able
to pivot from it, becauseanything can change, and so not
being able to pivot makes itreally challenging to have true
(16:48):
physiological birth, for sure.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Yeah, I think just I talked to so many women about
just their experience andthere's a lot of trauma and
there's a lot of things thathappened to them that they
didn't want to happen, a lot ofthings that happened to them
that they didn't want to happen.
No, and I think we just need tolike normalize, like informed
consent, getting all the deetsand actually being walked
(17:12):
through, like it takes twoseconds to walk someone through
hey, we're gonna do this, ifthat's okay, or we can try this.
But yeah, I really want, I wantwomen to take control and I just
want women to feel held.
And yeah, because it's sobrushed off like childbirth,
postpartum.
It's so brushed off likeeveryone's so excited.
You tell them you're pregnantoh, my gosh, like I'm so happy
(17:34):
blah, blah, blah.
And then you birth this wholechild, yeah, and then it's
crickets, yeah, or can't wait tocome meet the baby, and then
mom's not held.
So it's really just.
I just want to hold the whole.
Natalie Evans (17:47):
I was talking to a pelvic floor physio last week
and we were talking about that.
You know, as medicalpractitioners like and with a
clinical practice, how do wesupport the postpartum phase,
and something that I've createdis I do like a postpartum
six-week guide.
So basically, this is yourguide to your six-week checkup
(18:07):
and she says she does somethingsimilar, but she sees them at
the five-week mark and then ifthere's anything going on they
can bring it to their OBGYN andthen they're not discharged from
their care.
Because if you do getdischarged at that six-week and
they didn't do an internal checkand something's wrong, too bad,
you have to wait, then you haveto get another referral.
(18:28):
But if you get that five-weekcheckup with a pelvic floor
physiotherapist, so she's likeno, you see me at five weeks
before you go to see your OB.
And I'm like, oh my God, thatis so brilliant, it's perfect.
But as clinical practitionersand as doulas, we need to
prepare moms for that so thatthey can get what they need
postpartum.
(18:48):
But it's like hacking thesystem and it's terrible that we
have to do that.
One of my moms called meyesterday and she said to me do
you know anything about if Iwanted to meet with an OB here
in the city?
She had a specific one in mind.
I want to talk to them.
I'm not pregnant and I want totalk to them about what the plan
(19:08):
is for me moving forward,because she's had two very
medically high risk pregnanciesand they've been almost exactly
the same and now she's thinkingabout having another child.
But she wants to know howthey're going to track
everything to make sure nothinggoes wrong.
I said to her I don't know.
You can call them and ask ifyou can meet with them.
(19:28):
And the receptionist saidabsolutely not.
You can't get in to see usuntil you're pregnant.
I will pay out of my pocket.
Nope, he doesn't do that.
I'm like so you can't eveninterview them?
No, you can't even get to knowhow they would support you until
you're actually expecting.
But she wants to know beforeshe actually is expecting,
(19:50):
because she wants to know ifthat's the path for her to
actually have another child ornot.
Wow, yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
That is so upsetting to hear.
Natalie Evans (19:57):
That is so upsetting.
Meanwhile we're doing free beangreens.
Not that we're medicalprofessionals, but yeah, Wow.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
You get to meet me, you get to say no, you get, yeah
, it is such a disservice andinterviewing your care practice
like your primary care physicianis key in having the birth you
want, in my opinion.
Natalie Evans (20:16):
Also, nobody also thinks about the fact that you
can go online and you can lookup their actual file.
Yeah, like every medicalpractitioner who has a license.
Please, if you hear nothingelse about this interview,
please hear this that you can goonline, same as me.
You can go to the College ofMassage Therapists of Ontario.
Type in my name, debra Kuhn,with CDs, and it'll tell you if
(20:38):
I've ever had a restriction onmy license.
And there is a restriction onmy license.
I was late payment for myrenewal what the heck, debra?
In 2013.
And so it says it on there.
It says suspended.
Is that you?
We're so busy.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
We're on call.
I'm on call for a birth, so Ididn't shut my phone off
completely.
Natalie Evans (21:01):
Yes, sorry, no that's part of it.
I think that's important forpeople to know.
We both have our phones onbecause we're on call.
Anyway, it was 2013 and I gotmy license suspended for just
that overnight.
But yeah so it says it on mylicense and people don't think
about that.
You ask your friends who's thebest OB.
Also, if their birth is notsomething that you want for
(21:23):
yourself, why would you see thesame OB?
Absolutely.
But you can find it out just bygoing to their governing body.
You can find it out by theMidwives of.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Ontario.
You can.
That's what I was going to ask.
Yes, and.
Natalie Evans (21:32):
Corey talks about that.
So much, check out my file.
Yeah, midwives of Ontario,every nurse has a two.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Oh, I didn't know, nurses did too.
Natalie Evans (21:41):
Yes, so very important when you're on the L&D
floor, to get their name ontheir badge so that if you do
have a problem with them, youcan report it.
It's important that women knowthat they can do that.
It was something that I wastalking about with a detective
yesterday and, yeah, she's justin my circle.
We were talking about informedconsent, having your sexual
(22:04):
integrity compromised, and shewas talking about birth.
She's a mom herself and howgiving birth and being
traumatized in birth can set youup to have your sexual
integrity compromised in othersituations.
We were talking about inregards to massage therapy.
But think about how they don'task for consent to check you and
(22:25):
they just dive in.
I'm going to check you now andthen all of a sudden, you're on
a massage table and you get yourbreasts accidentally grazed and
you're super uncomfortable, butyou're like, yeah, big deal.
I'm okay with that happening,because I also had my vagina
checked last month and nobodyasked me for permission then.
So I guess this might be normal, this is the norm.
(22:45):
Yeah, isn't that devastating?
Yeah, like, when you comparethe two, I'm not saying having
your breast grazed in massagetherapy is the same as being
cervically checked withoutpermission, but we were talking
about how you can just learn tosuppress those feelings of
discomfort and asking forinformed consent as a massage
(23:07):
therapist like those things.
It needs to be addressed in themoment.
Like I accidentally grazed yourbreasts, I'm going to give you
a minute.
Are you okay for me to continue?
Are you uncomfortable?
Like it has to be addressed inthe moment and I will tell you
right now.
Breast tissue on the massagetable postpartum when your
breasts are engorged, it's likeTetris anyway.
(23:29):
So I think it's interesting howthat whole clinical practice of
how they run their businessreally affects healing
postpartum Absolutely, and Ithink it's important for women
know the hacks to get around it.
So if anybody has questionsabout what I just suggested and
that physiotherapist, pleasereach out to us, send us a
(23:51):
message through fan mail or,obviously, through our social
media.
All right, let's get back toyou, natalie.
Okay, tell me a little bitabout how you care for yourself
after birth, because this is soimportant for people to
understand how heavy like ourwork is.
Like nothing else, I feel likeI have the best job in the
(24:11):
entire world.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah, it can be even on the easy, even on the most
beautiful, the most alignedbirths, yeah, there's still that
debriefing that needs to happenand coming down that, like my
first birth, I supported.
I was riding a high for a week,yeah, and once I came down, I
was like I need to like debriefthis birth.
Yeah, and I think that's huge.
(24:33):
Yes, you actually told me likewhen we first started chatting,
you were like you need a goodtherapist.
Yeah, you were like I call mineon my way to my birth.
I'm like we, we're gonna haveto debrief soon.
Yeah, and that's huge.
Yeah, debriefing and havingcolleagues to chat with.
Like you, I spoke with you aboutthat birth and but whatever,
yeah, so I'm full-time mom so Iget back from a birth.
(24:57):
I'm right back in mom mode, soI'm usually trying to set up
child care.
Yeah, so either a meme or myauntie comes over so I can get
some rest.
Yeah, because I got home at 3am after that birth and Walter
was up at 6 am and I was like,okay, let's be a great mom today
(25:17):
, no sleep.
So, yeah, trying to fill my cupup in that sense where I'm
getting some rest and feelingsome support from family or my
partner.
But yeah, you can't pour froman empty cup, especially for 12,
13 hours.
No, that's right.
Natalie Evans (25:34):
And actually, if you really think about that, you
know that birth was a lotlonger than that right.
We got there like at 8 am andwe didn't get home until 3.
We're looking at 18, 19 hours.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
And then I think of my birth.
I labored for 36 hours, so likeit could be anywhere.
First time mom, it's likeanywhere from 24 to 38 hours and
if you're there the whole time.
Natalie Evans (25:58):
Yeah, kelly and I talked about this yesterday and
I don't want to do that.
I don't ever want to go for 36hours.
I'm not going to be my freshself and also we can get
triggered.
We can get triggered about thewhole fact that we have that
life at home.
So why, no matter what, after24 hours, I'm going to say at 18
(26:19):
, I'm like it's not that I wantto tap out, I'm in it.
Yeah, I don't want to.
You would have to drag me away.
But I feel like being able tobring in another doula or a
fresh set of eyes to say what amI missing?
Yeah, I've done this, I've donethis, I've done this.
This is clinically what'shappening.
What am I missing?
Yeah, and have someone be ableto like feedback and play
(26:49):
devil's advocate with thesituation and what's happening,
to make fresher suggestions.
I feel like that's somethingthat I have wanted my whole
doula career and have nottechnically had until now here
and there, a few people thathave popped in but not stayed
and I really feel like havingthe agency and the collective is
really going to help us withthat.
Oh yeah.
So yeah, having a therapist isso important.
(27:11):
I was at a birth one time Ididn't go back to birth.
For eight months.
I had people that I was oncontract with and nothing really
went wrong.
It was it didn't go textbookand I was still a fresh doula
and there was no fatalities orno death or anything like that.
It was just that I was nervousand scared and I got triggered
(27:35):
for sure.
Eight months I didn't go backto.
I had people on contract that Isaid no to, gave them back
their money, helped them findanother doula and I think at
that time if I had a reallygreat therapist, maybe I
wouldn't have needed eightmonths because I was doing it.
I had a therapist but weweren't talking about that.
But I really love that we havethat for each other.
(27:55):
I love doing that with Coreybecause she can medically show
me what was happening in eyesthat I don't always see.
So I do think that it'simportant.
What's your favorite food after, I don't know, I guess not just
coming home from a birth, buteven after late night or
whatever.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
You know, what I love me is a bagel sub Like from.
Natalie Evans (28:20):
Subway.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Firehouse subs.
Natalie Evans (28:22):
Firehouse subs.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
The hook and ladder sub at Firehouse.
Yeah, I love.
I think after my favorite likesnacks for during labor is an RX
bar energy bowl in every doulabag.
Yeah every doula bag is an RXbar yeah, but no big old sub if
I can make it and they're openwhen I leave.
(28:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Natalie Evans (28:47):
I used to always do penalty box.
I was right next to her.
Yeah, I don't know why.
Someone brought it to me afterI had my first kid, so good yeah
.
And also my husband fed pizzato the whole labor and delivery
floor, but I'm not a big fan ofpizza.
Okay, pizza to the whole laborand delivery floor, but I'm not
(29:07):
a big fan of pizza and so didn'tget anything for me.
But the whole floor got fed.
It was just a slip.
And I don't know if you've everseen at Zare's they have these
macaroon cookies.
They're like the coconut andsome of them have like chocolate
on them.
Somebody brought a tray ofthose and because I couldn't eat
pizza, I ate like 25 of those.
It was bad.
Poor kid's breast milk musthave been like loaded with
(29:29):
coconut.
Delicious I don't even think shelikes coconut now.
Deborah (29:33):
We ruined it for her.
Natalie Evans (29:36):
That's funny.
That's funny.
Okay, I want to ask you aboutwhat has it meant to you to be a
part of our team?
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Oh, it's been such a privilege.
Having you to lean on and beingmentored by you feels like such
a privilege, yeah, and gettingto know Kelly, like our
relationship is still growing.
But I think just having otherdoulas to lean on and knowing
I'm struggling right now with X,y and Z or I need some support
here.
(30:04):
And it's let's come up with aplan together.
Yes, yeah, that sense ofcommunity and I think that's
what's lacking in the doulaworld is not having other doulas
to lean on.
Do you think that's aboutcompetition?
Natalie Evans (30:16):
I don't know.
I don't know.
Or is it that alreadyestablished doulas are not
willing to do the work withoutgetting paid?
Yeah, it's hard to say, becauseI do think it's fair that
everybody gets paid.
I think everyone should getpaid Absolutely, but also some
of it.
If anyone ever asked me,deborah, can I pick your brain
(30:39):
on something, I would say tothem yeah, tell me in five weeks
what your schedule looks likeand I will find time for you.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Yeah.
Natalie Evans (30:47):
I can't do it last minute.
That's just not a part of myworld anymore.
Yeah, Because of my familyfirst of all, but also now the
doula agency.
So I'm on call for that all thetime.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
But yeah, yeah, I think it's also a level of not
knowing that there's otherdoulas.
Like when I first started out,I thought I knew of maybe three
or four doulas in the area, yeah, and then, once you get into
the world, I was like whoa,there's 25 of us, yes, so I
think for me it was like notknowing, yes, and not having the
those connections made.
Yeah, but yeah, it could alsobe like a competition thing.
(31:21):
I think it takes a lot of.
You have to hold a lot of spaceas well.
You being in your role thatyou're in right now, like with
kelly and I, it's you'recarrying a lot of space for us,
yeah, and for all of ourquestions, and I've reached out
to you, send you a voice noteand then you get back to me.
yeah, of course, it's also likeyou've committed to that, like
not everyone thinks you can holdthat space for other dealers as
(31:43):
well yeah, no, especially ifthey're still in it.
Natalie Evans (32:03):
Doing it full time, yeah, and then holding
space for it?
Yeah, absolutely what we needmore of.
Or can we go about this in adifferent way?
Right, and how do we makechange at the bottom line
instead of because right now,we're making change one mom at a
time?
Yeah, I'm slowly working onother things behind the scenes,
but I wouldn't be able to dothat if you guys weren't working
(32:25):
on the mothers one at a timeand we also wouldn't be able to
take on as many moms as we aretaking on.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
No, if we didn't have us as a group like I know how
many I can take on in a time.
Like you know, there's only somuch one doula can do.
That's when there's three of us.
Yes, however much we decide togrow, yeah, you can just take on
that many more clients so wecan reach that many more
families.
So I think at the end of theday, it's really bringing us
(32:52):
back to where we want to be andit kind of brings us back to our
why yes, and why we are doulasis to help as many families and
women as we can.
I think that this just reallysets us up for that.
Natalie Evans (33:05):
I do.
I do too.
That's why I started there.
Yeah, tell me something thatyou wish, besides someone to
mentor them, what do you wishmore doulas had access to in
their own practices?
Do you think the most, thebiggest change maker for
yourself and your doula practice, is having someone who's
already walked the path?
Or is it a skill set?
(33:26):
Or is it education?
What is it that you feel thatyou wish more doulas had?
Speaker 3 (33:35):
I can only speak for myself.
I did my training online.
Most doula trainings that Ifound were online, yes, so I
think having that hands-onpractical yes space to practice,
especially with someone who'sbeen doing it for 20 years, yeah
, so that was huge.
Our comfort measures, trainingthat we did, or workshop, that
(33:55):
was such an awesome class.
Oh my gosh, it was amazing andI feel so much more prepared
going in.
I felt prepared before, butthen I'm like whoa, this just
topped it off.
Natalie Evans (34:05):
Yeah, just hand placement softening your body to
hold their body right.
Instead of I'm here, let mejust touch you all over your
body.
Yeah, did you like that?
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Did you like this?
No?
Natalie Evans (34:16):
Yeah, like it's such a fine skill to learn and
it's definitely not taught wellin the virtual class.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
No, and like they do their best at least with Dona
they did such a great job, likemy trainer was amazing, but it's
still not the same.
It's still not the same.
It's still not the same, no.
So I think that, yeah, havingthe space to actually practice
what we're learning and alsojust having that shoulder to
lean on, it's like hey, I'm inthis situation, what?
Deborah (34:42):
should I do here.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Yeah, if I like knowing I can call you mid-birth
and be like hey, we're stalled.
We've tried x, y and z, yeahwhat am I missing?
Natalie Evans (34:50):
what am I?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
missing and then to have you be like oh, I, I try
leaning forward a version orwhatever.
Natalie Evans (34:55):
Yeah, or I don't know, I can't think straight.
Let me call my support system.
Yeah, and then that's what Ilove.
There's so many connectionsthat I've made in the city that
I've made those late night phonecalls saying I need help.
Yeah, a pharmacist, can I givethe mom this?
What can I do here?
She's on this.
She has mastitis.
Can we give Tylenol, any ofthose things?
(35:18):
Medically, that is not worthgoing to the ER five days
postpartum, 4 am, exactly.
Yeah, you need a team for thatstuff and I really love that.
I have that and I'm reallyhappy to be able to share that
in the agency.
All right, so you're sittingwith a pregnant person, maybe
someone in their third trimester, unsure of what's ahead.
(35:41):
What would you say to them?
What do you want every birthingperson to hear?
Your body?
Speaker 3 (35:46):
and baby are wise and know what they're doing and
they're working together to getthis baby on the other side.
And it's hard.
You're big, you feel big,everything hurts, you're
uncomfortable.
But last call for epithelial Ilove her induction.
But, yeah, just trust your baby, trust your body and you're
(36:09):
gonna.
You're gonna have your baby inyour arms so soon.
Yeah, yeah, and you're going toget to step into this new role.
That's awesome, yeah.
Natalie Evans (36:15):
I have a mom right now.
She's a few days overdue andwe're messaging every day, two
or three times a day, and she'snot my doula client, she's one
of my clinical patients and Ijust love her.
I love that she's not afraid toask me anything in a text
message and I wish every womancould do that.
(36:37):
I might not have a contractwith you, but if I can answer a
question for you, please send methe text message.
Also, we're starting to hostthis Doula Deborah on Demand and
I feel like that's a lot ofwhat people could use.
Her question to me yesterday wasI just want to trust my body on
this one, like I went with themedical system.
(37:01):
I went with a medical systemsuggesting my last pregnancy and
I really just want to trust mybody on this pregnancy and I'm
like are you asking me foradvice on how to safely say no
to an induction?
And I get all caps yes, and sosometimes it's just about that.
It's about at 39 weeks, 40weeks, 41 weeks, whatever it is
(37:23):
that you are, there's no way anydoula is going to ask you to
risk your baby.
What we want you to know is anoption, is that if you are
comfortable.
We can help guide you throughgetting through one or two more
days and if there's nothingmedically wrong with you or baby
, then having a conversationwith your primary care provider
(37:47):
is something that you can makehappen so that you feel that
it's safe to go one or two moredays and we can guide you on
that.
I talk about it all over myInstagram, I talk about it all
over my podcast as well, and Italk about it in the clinic
every single day.
But at the end of the day, it'sthe mom's choice and if she's
uncomfortable and they wave thewhite induction flag, it's
(38:07):
pretty tempting.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
And be able to pick your day.
Yeah, I want to meet my babythis day and I totally get that
For myself.
Just going back, I went intolabor at 42 weeks.
I started 42 weeks on the dotand I was going wild that last
two weeks.
I would wake up every morning,curb, walk, walk around the
(38:29):
block a few times, balleverything, everything and I was
driving myself crazy and Ididn't enjoy those last few
weeks because I was so focusedon trying to put yourself trying
to put myself into labor andthe one day that I finally
surrendered to it is the day mywater broke.
I'd go into the hospital for myultrasounds.
(38:49):
They were checking, they weredoing a stress test and checking
the placenta and amniotic fluid, because I'm running out of
fluid and whatnot?
Natalie Evans (38:56):
biophysical profile biophysical profile.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
So, yeah, I did that.
I did three of those in my lastweek just to get them off me,
because I was like keep doingthese, because I'm not getting
induced.
Yeah, and every time I stepfoot into the hospital they're
like why don't you just get in?
But, like the pressure behindit, they were like why are you
still pregnant?
Yeah, like because I'm good,yeah, my baby's good, I'm good
(39:20):
and I'm like how's my test?
How'd my test come back?
And it was like perfect, yeah,so you also have that outside
pressure.
It's like my neighbors acrossthe street, you're still
pregnant.
I'd be like I'm going to fightyou right here.
But yeah, there's that outsidepressure and I think when we
just come back into our bodiesand talk to your baby, talk to
(39:42):
yeah, and just really stayrooted in your body is wise,
your baby is wise and you guyswill figure this out, yeah, I
love that.
Natalie Evans (39:51):
That's great advice for anyone in their last
weeks of pregnancy.
All right, I want to dosomething a little bit fun.
Okay, quick fire round.
Whatever comes to mind.
What's the essential item inyour doula bag?
My hands, literally my hands,yeah, same.
Not in my doula bag, no.
So your go-to comfort foodafter a long birth?
We long birth.
(40:15):
We already know that legal suba birth mantra you love my baby,
and body are wise, yeah, loveit the most surprising thing
you've learned as a doula.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Oh, what is the most surprising thing I've learned as
a doula?
I think a lot of the stats,like a lot of the statistics
around, like cesarean rates,breastfeeding rates in lidsor
estates county, like I think alot of those, yeah, are
surprising, are surprising.
Natalie Evans (40:32):
People are always shocked when I fire those out.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Yeah.
Natalie Evans (40:35):
And your favorite part of supporting someone in
labor.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
Oh, watching them step into their primal yeah,
that primal part of labor.
Yeah when they really just getinto it.
It's like you're awesome.
Natalie Evans (40:45):
Yeah, you're like okay, we're in it, now we?
Yeah, that's awesome.
Natalie, thank you so much forshowing up with so much truth
and tenderness today.
It's doulas like you who remindus that birth work isn't just
about contractions and pushing,and it's new doulas like you
that show me and teach me allabout the fire.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Thank you.
Natalie Evans (41:06):
So if you're listening and thinking, I want
someone like Natalie at my birthhead to the link in our show
notes to learn more about ourteam at Pelvic Love Doula Agency
, and you can find Natalie atPureEssenceDoulaCare on
Instagram.
And until next time.
Thank you so much for beingwith us today, and I will talk
(41:28):
to you all soon.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Thank you so much.
Deborah (41:30):
Talk to you soon.
Okay, let's all soon.
Thank you so much.
Talk to you soon.
Okay, let's talk soon.
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