November 21, 2024 • 55 mins
For our November episode, co-hosts Ted Stank and Tom Goldsby were live at the Fall 2024 Supply Chain Forum, where they spoke with Robert Martichenko, board chair for TrailPath Workplace Solutions, and Sunland Logistics Solutions' CEO Arch Thomason and VP of Human Resources Diane Lowman.
With fundamental forces, from population demographics to shifting societal attitudes, shifting the nature of work and the relationships between people and their employers, the challenge of attracting, recruiting, developing, and retaining talent is greater than ever. Our guests provide an in-depth case study for how they've partnered to build a Meaningful Employment Environment where trust has been established, fundamental needs are being met, the environment is participative, and the work is meaningful.
These are the kinds of relevant projects being tackled by University of Tennessee partners and shared through our extensive networks. Learn more about becoming a member of our renowned Supply Chain Forum today.
The episode was recorded live at the Marriott Knoxville Downtown on November 13, 2024. Watch a video of the episode.
Related links:
- Listen to our Season 1 episode featuring Robert Martichenko, "Is Lean Dead?"
- Read our latest white paper, "Unlocking the Potential of the Gen XYZ Labor Force," released at the forum.
- Listen to our Season 2 episode with Sunland's Chief Customer Officer Elijah Ray, "It's All About People."
- Become a Supply Chain Forum member
- Learn about SCM Academy programs, including upcoming virtual courses on Leadership (Jan. 29–May 6), Finance (March 3–April 27), and Planning (March 17–May 11)
- Subscribe to GSCI’s monthly newsletter
- Read the latest news and insights from GSCI
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Introduction & Outro (00:00):
Welcome to the Tennessee on Supply Chain
Management podcast.
Listen in as co-hosts Ted Stankand Tom Goldsby set sail into
the world of end-to-end supplychain management, diving deep
into today's most relevantbusiness topics.
They'll share insights inpressing industry issues and
tackle the challenges keepingsupply chain professionals up at
night.
If you're enjoying the ride,download and subscribe to
(00:22):
Tennessee on Supply ChainManagement on your favorite
podcast platform now.
Ted Stank (00:28):
Welcome to the Tennessee on Supply Chain
Management podcast.
This is our November 2024episode, second episode of the
third season.
Right, I think that's where weare.
So we're signing up promotionalopportunities now, for we'll
start going to commercials atsome point.
Tom Goldsby (00:45):
Let's make it happen.
Always a revenue opportunityfor sure.
Robert Martichenko (00:48):
The Ted and Tom show I always wanted to be
on that Finally here, finally,finally, you made it.
And I would never ever evercorrect Dr Stank, but he's not
actually an old boomer, he's ayoung boomer.
So if we're going to andconsidering you wrote this you
should know the differencebetween a young boomer and an
old boomer.
Ted Stank (01:07):
I'll accept that On the front edge, I'm feeling more
and more every day like an oldboomer.
But that notwithstanding, I'lltake the young boomer
designation.
Tom Goldsby (01:16):
Well, we are so excited to have this session
Should also probably provide ourlisteners with a little bit of
background where we're comingfrom.
We're coming to you liverecording at the Supply Chain
Forum, coming to you from RockyTop, your host, Ted, and Tom
here.
But we're thrilled to be joinedby three guests today Our
panelists, Robert Martichenko,who is board chair of Trailpath
(01:38):
Workplace Solutions, workingwith Supply Chain Forum partner
company, Sunland LogisticsSolutions, and we're delighted
to have the CEO, Arch Thomason,and the vice president of human
resources, Diane Lohman, to talkabout what I think is perhaps
the most, dare I say, peskypervasive I don't know what term
(02:01):
we want to put on talent insupply chain management.
Regardless of where we goaround this nation, around this
world, people say a top one, two, three challenge we have in
supply chain management, inbusiness, dare I even say in
society, is attracting,developing and retaining talent.
The problem is sufficientlyframed.
We all feel it, we understandit to an extent, but I've not
(02:26):
seen much in the way ofsolutions and in that regard,
I'm really thrilled that we havea white paper that we're
unveiling here at the forum,called Unlocking the Potential
of the Gen XYZ Labor Force,which is an effort we've made
right here at UT to again try tounderstand and maybe work
toward solutions.
Ted, you are a co-author on thisreport.
(02:47):
What's kind of the upshot ofwhat you learned in doing this
research?
Ted Stank (02:52):
The upshot is that we need to be aware of how
different generations look atwork and what they want to get
out of work.
Particularly as leaders ofthese organizations, we need to
be sensitive to what thesedifferent generations are
looking for from work and how dowe keep them engaged and
actualized, if you will, so theystay with us, because retention
(03:12):
is a huge issue for all of ourorganizations.
It costs us a lot in ways thatshow up definitely on our income
statements, but also in waysthat impact our cultures and our
ability to serve customers inmany, many ways, and so all of
our executives that make theirway here to Knoxville, tennessee
, which is not easy for most ofthem, will tell us that they
come because we are a primarytalent provider for them, and
(03:36):
anything we can work on togetherto help improve not only talent
development, but talentretention is something that's
really beneficial because it ison every leader's top three Arch
.
I would refer to you.
Is it a top one?
It's top one today?
Yeah, I would believe that and,by the way, this isn't a
temporary issue.
It's not going away.
Every industrialized country inthe world is seeing a shrinking
(03:59):
population by I believe it's2050,.
The UN believes that we willstart seeing a global population
decline.
Just to give you a little bitof a note that the US is in this
.
It's hit Western Europe andsome of the nations in Asia
already China, korea, japan.
But the United States over thelast three years has had a 1.63
(04:23):
births per woman statistic.
So statistically you have tohave 2.1 children born for every
woman in a country just tomaintain a stable population.
We have had 1.63 over the lastfour years, which means we're
shrinking.
I believe Italy is like 1.2.
I think South Korea is 0.8.
So all of our industrializedcountries, including China.
(04:46):
You know, if you think of Chinaas growing, they're not,
they're shrinking.
And so talent and talentretention is going to become a
bigger and bigger issue for theyoungest one of you in here as
you go through your careers.
Tom Goldsby (04:57):
So that would seem to suggest it's going to be a
problem that gets even worsethan it is now.
And it's already, as Archindicates, the number one
problem perhaps within ourindustry.
And as I look at this report,gen X, y, z I'm Gen X, all right
, and you might say, well, ok,to satisfy someone like Goldsby,
all you got to do is pipe inPearl Jam and Nirvana into the
(05:19):
workplace and it's all going tobe fine.
But I got to tell you I'mgetting influenced by Gens Y and
Z.
Right, they're expecting moreof the workplace and I'm like,
well, if they can expect more,why can't we right?
It's not just our ability toinfluence those future
generations, but thosegenerations coming into the
workplace now are influencingthe Xs and the boomers.
Ted Stank (05:41):
That's why I live in Beaufort, North Carolina.
Tom Goldsby (05:51):
That's fair enough.
Yeah, good point.
Well, again I think we've kindof framed the global
circumstance and again it'sright here in front of us.
I think everyone in the room isexperiencing it one way or
another.
So, robert, you come to us withdeep, deep experience and
background lean thinking.
I think I've written a fewbooks and articles with you on
that subject.
You have it was you right andyou built your career.
You started a company calledLeanCore that became the global
(06:14):
brand in lean thinking appliedto supply chain practice.
You built the company.
What about four years ago?
Yes, and what has been yourpassion since selling Linkor,
and why is it in this area ofmeaningful employment
opportunity?
Robert Martichenko (06:32):
Well, after my company was sold, I thought
my passion was going to behiking and figuring out how to
get all the 14ers done inColorado, in Colorado, but then
my pal Arch called me and toldme that our industry, the
third-party logistics industry,has a challenge on its hand
relative to people, operationsindustries think transportation,
(06:55):
think warehousing, thinkmanufacturing, the supply chain
industries we're dealing atnormalizing for regional
differences, companies that areran by very caring people like
Arch and Diane are dealing withturnover rates in the 40, 50, 60
, 70, 80 percent per year, andso it's not because they're not
(07:17):
trying.
There's something going on, andit's about the perfect storm of
the population, demographicschanging attitudes, the fact
that what all those thingsresult in, though, is we have a
shrinking workforce, which meansif there's five jobs, there's
only four people, which meanspeople have choices, which means
you're going to use the powerof choice and you're going to
(07:38):
work where you want to work,where it's going to feel
purposeful, where you're goingto feel ownership, where you're
going to feel like you canengage in continuous improvement
and be a life learner and allof the things that you want in
life.
And the fact is, is that thatchanging, that modernizing of
the attitude of the employee.
(07:58):
As industry, our organizationshave not kept up.
It's not like we haven't tried,but we've been busy doing other
things, because every singleindustry in the world is being
disrupted by now somehow bycompetitors or technologies or
so forth, and we didn't keep upwith the people side of things.
We kept up with the processimprovement side, we kept up
(08:18):
with the tech side, we didn'tkeep up with the people side of
things, and so that's what we'regoing to try to do.
We're going to attempt workingwith people like Arch and Diane
and other people who believe inthe people side of industry.
We're going to see if we can'tscale some things that have
never been scaled before, likeleadership behaviors, like team
(08:40):
member participation, like teammember participation, and with
the end goal being to see if wecan design and articulate what a
meaningful employmentenvironment would really be for
everybody, regardless of yourgeneration or your age in the
workforce.
Tom Goldsby (08:54):
So that's the mission and Arch, you said this
is the number one concern thatyou have as CEO at Sunland.
Can you kind of frame that upfor?
Arch Thomason (09:02):
us.
Sure, this really started ourconversations in 2020 with the
advent of COVID, and everyone inthe supply chain remembers that
.
And we, literally in multiplemarkets across the country, we
couldn't find labor.
They were not existent.
And so we see that in themarketplace and I'm traveling
(09:23):
throughout the country andeverywhere is a labor problem.
The dental hygienists areattorneys Right, it was across
the board.
And I'm talking to Robert, who'sactually studying demographics
and he's saying this is going toget worse.
And so for us as anorganization, as a 3PL, as a
service provider, people are thefoundation for our success.
(09:44):
Now, everyone says that, butcompany doesn't say that.
But, like, this is the essenceof our organization 72% of our
costs of a 3PL are employeerelated.
This is a big deal.
And so in our industry, in ourcompany, our industry's 40%
turnover is a standard, andDiane was even telling us last
(10:07):
night across the board and I'lllet Diane talk about it it's 46%
.
Well, how do you build a teamwhen you're turning over half
your people every year?
It's hard to do that.
So, you know, from myperspective, it was.
I keep hearing the problem, butI don't hear a definitive
solution anywhere.
Everybody complains, but Idon't hear we're doing this
(10:31):
other than we're throwing moneyat the problem, and Robert,
being the thinker, he is reallyhad time and took a lot of hikes
and came up with, I think, withhis team, a really valid
solution to maybe take us out ofthis.
So that's why we're here andthat's why we're joined, and
it's very exciting from myperspective.
Tom Goldsby (10:47):
Well, that's amazing and again, I think
you've just iterated, dare I say, some of the frustration that I
spoke of just moments ago.
Again, we understand it's aproblem.
What are we going to do aboutit?
Diane, as vice president ofhuman resources, you're at the
front lines of it.
I think a lot of organizationsjust say, well, just keep,
devise strategy to refill theleaking bucket, but what are you
(11:10):
doing in the way of putting aseal, maybe, on that bucket and
developing the people that youactually attract?
Retain?
Diane Lowman (11:18):
So many of our team members have expressed
desires to move up in thecompany, and we've looked at
ways to do that.
But there's some very basicelements to having a workforce
that wants to stay with yourcompany and that's them
(11:38):
believing that they can trust us.
And as I'm speaking today, Iwould like for you all to not
just think about your employees,team members, associates,
whatever you may call yoursupport functions on the floor.
Think about yourselves.
When we talk about trust, whenwe talked about dignity, and
(12:01):
when we talk about a workenvironment where you find
purpose, think about yourself inaddition to thinking about
those people that you'reresponsible for.
So, back to your question wehave tried many initiatives in
engaging with our team members.
(12:22):
It's very important engagingwith our team members.
It's very important,specifically from the HR team.
We need to be out on that floorevery day, engaging with our
team members, diffusing issuesthat can fester, understanding
what's going on in their lives,making them know that we do care
about them.
(12:44):
In conjunction with that, wealso have to run a business.
In order for us to be able toretain our team members and have
them grow with our company, weneed to make sure that they know
that we care that they cantrust us, and you have to think
about what does trust mean toyou and what does trust mean to
(13:07):
them.
We can certainly say manythings to our team members, but
if they don't see us walking thewalk, it doesn't mean a thing
to them, and I think sometimeswe as leaders don't give our
team members enough credit.
If you're not sincere, theyknow you're not sincere, so
(13:29):
don't even bother trying.
The most important thing is wehave to be sincere.
They know that we care andthey're working for a company
that will help and work withthem.
Tom Goldsby (13:42):
Well, there was a lot there, diane for sure.
So how do you get thisorganized?
And I'm thinking about yourhikes, robert, all right.
So, given the problem, giventhe need, how do you get
organized around this?
What is a meaningful employmentenvironment to start off with?
Robert Martichenko (14:00):
So this initiative started when Arch
called and we also have thepleasure of having a lot of
friends who care about thisstuff Dr Langley, who's here the
first time I was ever at theschool, I moved from Canada to
Evansville, indiana, and thefirst time I was ever at U of T
was like I was seeing it lastnight, like 1999, 2000.
I was here helping Toyota buildtheir infrastructure in North
(14:22):
America.
So I have the honor andpleasure of having a lot of very
good friends that I love dearlyand they own companies, many of
them and they're dealing withthe same thing with art.
So we got two years ago we gotbeta sites.
Three organizations one inCanada, one in California, one
(14:42):
in South Carolina said come in,do whatever you need, ask for
data whatever, just come in.
And we did the work.
We did it in a scientific way,as a kid from Timmins, ontario,
could do, and I tapped intopeople that know how to do this
work properly.
And we built the framework.
We started we had about 100things that people want as the
(15:05):
characteristics of a meaningfulemployment environment and then
we said that's too much.
We can't deal with 100 things.
It's not possible in aworkplace.
It's too complicated, toocomplex.
So we got it down to two things, and these two things are
dignity and meaningful work.
I want to be treated like avaluable for no other reason
(15:27):
than I'm a human being, notbecause I'm successful, not
because I have a great resume,not because I aced that project.
Treat me with value because I'ma human being.
And then, second, meaningfulwork.
The work has to be meaningful.
We did our value stream mapping, which we've done a thousand
(15:47):
times, doing flow on materialand information flow.
We did it on people and wewatched people and when you
remove breaks and lunch, 78% ofthe day is doing the work.
So if the work is miserable,then your day's gonna be
miserable.
You can't get around that.
This is not complicated 16second hit and runs.
(16:28):
And at a hit and run, only twothings happen you walk away
feeling like you just hadsomething taken from you or you
walk away feeling like you weregiven something.
This is the dignity aspects.
Two things dignity andmeaningful work.
Now they cascade.
So you go how do you implementthat?
Because we can't just leave itat that and they cascade to
trust and fundamental needs fordignity and they cascade to the
(16:50):
work environment and the workitself for meaningful work.
So a framework was created, andnow the work that's being done
is to vet out and understandwhere the framework will be
easily validated, where it won'tbe easily validated, and what
we're going to need to do.
People's stuff is complicated.
(17:11):
It really is.
My wife's been telling me thatabout myself for years and I
never believed it.
Now I'm going you're right, weare complicated, apparently.
Ted Stank (17:20):
So can you all give us some concrete examples of
what this means?
I mean, dignity is a greatconstruct, but, as a professor,
a construct is latent, right,it's up there in the cloud and
it's hard to define andoperationalize.
So what are some of the keys totreating people with dignity in
the workforce?
And then the secondary questionis how do you make what often
(17:43):
is routine work meaningful?
Diane Lowman (17:48):
So one of the most important things and again
looking at yourself as well ishow can we make our team members
feel a part of what we do everyday?
We talked about generations,boomers.
I'm one.
Give me my cold watch, I'll goaway, okay, but there are others
that are looking for meaningfulwork.
(18:10):
Teach me about who the customeris, because we're a 3PL
organization.
Who are we servicing?
Why is what I do every dayimportant?
I want to be part.
I want to have ownership inshipping that faucet.
Let me understand more and morethe purpose of me shipping this
(18:32):
correctly Ownership, feeling apart of something.
Also, many times, your teammembers on the floor know a lot
more than that supervisor and alot more than that ops manager,
and we don't give them creditfor that.
We need to honor theircontribution to their work and
(18:54):
also their knowledge and theirability to help us to do our
jobs more efficiently, and theywill feel a part of Sunland and
by feeling a part of it, theywill want to leave less.
Arch Thomason (19:09):
We had an example recently, a couple of weeks ago
, we had a storm in SouthCarolina, where I live, and just
we're talking about structures,right, that have been existing
forever and as we talk aboutdignity, so we had a couple of
sites go down for a couple ofdays.
One site in particular wentdown for eight days and 44
(19:29):
people at that site, notransactions, no trucks in, no
trucks out, and under thecurrent structure, salary got
paid.
But under that currentstructure, if the hourly team
members did not work, they wouldnot get paid.
Now, who can afford at thispoint in time to not get a
paycheck for eight days of work,right, and so we paid it, like
(19:52):
we were in a position where wecould do that and we would.
But I think, just thinkingabout challenging structure, I
mean the thing where I'm comingfrom and Robert and I talked is
the people who are making ourbeds, who are cooking, who are
picking orders in our warehouseslive a very different life than
we do.
They just do Right.
I mean, the decisions they'remaking, the choices they're
(20:15):
making, are very different fromthe people in this room.
Now, from my perspective, Idon't want the government, I
don't want unions to tell us.
We need to do this.
I think it's a business problemand I think we can solve it,
but I think it's going to takesome challenging of the current
status quo and how we thinkabout things.
Robert and I talked last nightFrom my perspective.
(20:37):
I'd rather pay less people, moremoney.
I just would right.
How do we become more efficient?
How do we help people developand grow and to be competitive?
But there are some basic needs.
Think Maslow's hierarchy.
This is Robert's baseline.
You got to take care.
Are they safe?
Are they secure?
Are they struggling If theycan't get their kids new shoes
(20:57):
when they go back to school?
These are the decisions they'remaking.
As an employer, I don't wantthat for anyone on my team,
right, and neither does Diane.
So we've got to look at this.
We've got to change someparadigms, I think and we're
just addressing that thissoftware and we take the hikes
they call them hikes and we'reasking questions of our
frontline team members thatwe've never asked before, and I
(21:20):
think it's something that isreally going to benefit us as a
for-profit organization longterm.
Tom Goldsby (21:26):
So when you say go take a hike, that's actually a
positive thing.
Robert Martichenko (21:30):
Well, yes, yes.
Well, to introduce another term, which is we call a rollback,
(22:00):
no-transcript, just surviving,which means I've got to stay
because I have bills to pay, butI'm absolutely.
There's zero joy in this for me, then, or growing meaning you
know what.
This might just work, thismight just work, and then
(22:22):
thriving is this is working forme and our data and we now have
thousands of data points becausewe've been able to digitize the
work now 50% of people in theworkplace, regardless of
position, are identifying withdeclining or just surviving in
their workplace.
Go to the Bureau of Labor andStatistics.
The national turnover rate inthe United States across all
(22:44):
industries private andgovernment and not-for-profit is
47% a year.
That's the churn at a macro USlevel.
This is a problem.
Yes, it's an opportunity toimprove and I get that.
I'm from that world.
Changing the narratives.
(23:04):
It's not a problem, it'sactually an opportunity.
I understand that this is aproblem and it's going to impact
all of us, and it's a humanproblem.
It's not just a workplaceproblem.
The paradigm shifts that Archjust mentioned about and we can
get into these these aren'tworkplace paradigms, these are
human belief paradigms.
(23:26):
Dr Elijah Ray, one of thosecherished friends I told you
about.
He understands all this stuffwhen we talk about it.
This idea that our home lifeand our work life and our
personal lives and ourprofessional lives are somehow
separated and are in differentbuckets that's a false notion.
It's fundamentally false and wehave to get our arms around
(23:49):
that.
And industry has to play a roleand we as team members have to
play a role, has to play a roleand we as team members have to
play a role.
If Arch makes the investment asthe owner and Diane does the
work as the leader, then teammembers have to participate and
if you don't, then maybe youdon't need to be there because
they're doing their part.
And this is extremely importantfor us to understand that this
(24:12):
is everybody's got a helmet on,everybody's on the field and
this is full contact, becausethis is a big problem and big
problems only get solved by fullcontact kind of mentalities.
Is that a football?
Tom Goldsby (24:27):
thing.
Yeah, I think so that works fora Canadian.
I told Tom I'd try my best.
Man, I was a little worriedthere we're not hiking anymore.
Ted Stank (24:37):
We're not hiking anymore.
We got the pads on now.
Tom Goldsby (24:40):
So, robert, as it would happen, yesterday we were
pontificating, we were out on ahike.
Robert Martichenko (24:44):
We were out on a digital.
We were.
We went to Norris Dam.
Tom Goldsby (24:47):
And we were talking about again the lean journey
which we've been a part of andso many organizations with which
you've worked have been a partof, and the effort that we made
for so many years to kind ofquantify the problem.
We refer to it as the hiddenfactory right, these hidden
factories of waste that permeateand perpetuate throughout our
(25:07):
organizations.
And you likened what we'regoing through now with this
search for a talent solution towhat we've experienced with the
old hidden factory discussionswe were having of bygone years.
It's just as you point out, wewere focused on process, process
, process.
Now you're focused on people.
Robert Martichenko (25:24):
Well, and I'll introduce it and then I'll
throw it over to Arch becausehe's got some great opinions on
the cost of this instability.
But there was a term called thehidden factory.
This has been a manufacturingterm for decades and what the
hidden factory was was inventorypeople doing rework machines
that weren't running, so you'redoing things manually.
That was called the hiddenfactory and it wasn't captured
(25:47):
in P&Ls.
But we've done a very good jobwith the hidden factory.
Any manufacturing organizationsthat have embraced operational
excellence or lean thinking orcontinuous improvement cultures
have done a very good job.
But there's a new modern dayhidden factory and that is the
cost of workforce instabilityBecause like the old hidden
(26:08):
factory, it's not visible and,arch, I know you and your team
did some work just around thecost stuff of this right, the
turnover.
Arch Thomason (26:17):
Yeah, we did.
And, as we think about it, wehave a Sunland management system
and it's fundamentally fivethings people, process
technology and then quantifiedvalue to customers and financial
performance.
Our president, hari, alwayssays in people process
technology, people is 80%,process tech is 10 and 10.
So I think that kind of puts itinto perspective of what we're
(26:41):
dealing with.
But you talk about thatinstability we have at Sunland,
just with our turnoverannualized last year about a $2
million problem.
And so from my perspective,supply chain, we go for low
hanging fruit.
Right, that's what we do.
Where's the pain?
And so we made what I would sayis a small investment.
This is a software as a serviceplatform with some training
(27:05):
relative to other CapEx projectswe're doing.
This is so small for such a bigpotential win Two million bucks
.
That is in our P&L today.
Now, where does it show up?
All over the place, it's not inthat one line item.
That sometimes to your waist.
Where is it?
It's hard to quantify, but weknow it exists and it's probably
higher when you take outnon-productivity and some things
(27:28):
like that that we know exists.
So it's a really big issuerelative to our overall spend
and we have to do something.
We can't sit around and pointat the trash can and say there's
trash on the floor, let's gopick something up and see what
happens.
It really, for us was ano-brainer and we're committed
to this and we will see results.
Ted Stank (27:49):
From my perspective, Can you all define for us
specifically what the frameworkis?
And you mentioned the softwareas a service.
What is?
Robert Martichenko (27:56):
it.
So the framework itself,meaningful employment
environment are the things thatare the meaningful employment
environment.
Dignity, meaningful work, trust.
Fundamental needs need to be inplace the work environment and
then the work, and then thatcascades to some things.
And then it would have said, ok, well, this would have made a
fantastic consulting product.
We could go in and we couldconsult and you could do your
(28:19):
work.
But that was never theobjective here, because LeanCore
had three things going on andone of it was consulting.
I know what it's like to run aconsulting company.
You can't scale it.
Consulting is not scalable.
And I'm 60 now.
I only have, you know, whatever10 more really good years where
I'll be smart or as smart as Iam, if that's even smart.
(28:42):
So I'm not interested inbuilding a consulting company.
I want to scale something.
Man, I want to make adifference.
Like, really, I don't want toimpact a thousand people, I want
to impact a million people, 10million people.
So we said we got to be able toscale this.
And but what are we scaling?
We're scaling behaviors andparticipation.
(29:05):
How do you do that?
Let me give you one, and Idon't want to steal the thunder,
because Manuel and Shannon andClint and Ben have a breakout
session.
But, ted, you asked OK, well,how do you build trust?
Well, one of the elements ofbuilding trust is to tell your
story.
You know like people come intowork, they've come from a
(29:25):
different organization.
They might've had a good boss,a bad boss, a good experience, a
bad experience, and nothing inthe system gets you to know
about that.
So you come in.
The person might have just hadan experience where the boss was
a taskmaster, toxic.
Well, wouldn't it be helpful toknow that, to maybe know that
they've been kicked a little bitin their life?
(29:47):
Well, how do you do that?
What system does that?
So we're saying, well then, thesystem's got to collect that.
So, through the platform, we'resaying, well then, the system's
got to collect that.
So, through the platform, we'reforcing that conversation.
Diane, maybe you've got somethoughts on that too.
Diane Lowman (30:00):
Well, I think that one thing is, when we go and
meet with our team members,we're tellers.
This platform allows us to bepartners so that they can share
with us what's going on in theirlife.
So they come in and they sayI'm having a bad day, well,
(30:21):
what's going on?
And they have an opportunity torecord what's going on.
There's a ping.
Their supervisor goes and readsokay, something's going on.
So that's an automatic flag.
I need to go and meet with thatteam member to find out what's
going on.
So that's an automatic flag Ineed to go and meet with that
team member to find out what'sgoing on.
We make such assumptions aboutwhat's going on in our team
(30:44):
members' lives.
What about they're havingproblems getting back and forth
to work?
They've been late three days.
Okay, you've been late threedays.
You're going to get threepoints.
Once you get to eight, you'regoing to be fired.
Whoa, there's got to be areason why you've been late
three days in a row and thisplatform gives that team member
(31:06):
an opportunity to be able toexplain that.
And then they get together astheir supervisor and team member
and they talk about it.
Then they get together as theirsupervisor and team member and
they talk about it.
Maybe there's a way we can helpthis person.
We're not a firing company.
We want good people to staywith us.
We have to understand what'sgoing on in their lives and how
(31:27):
can we help them.
Ted Stank (31:30):
Is this something they log in every day when they
come into work and answer aseries of questions or have a
chance to provide feedback?
Robert Martichenko (31:37):
50% learning and 50% participation.
So let's go hone in on stories.
Well, the first thing, beforeyou go and ask somebody to tell
you whether they were everkicked by a boss, before they
need to understand why, it'seven important to know that they
were kicked by a boss beforecontext.
My oldest daughter is inmanhattan working at trying to
(32:01):
be a working actor, and I havethese amazing conversations with
her, and I'm a writer as well.
So, but she's told me about theplot of a story.
So when I watch movies now Iget get them.
There's dialogue.
What's being said?
There's the subtext.
What's really being said.
Do you mean you want me to tellyou whether I was kicked before
(32:37):
by a boss?
Like, why would you want that?
Right, because, let's remembernow, people that have don't have
never had trustingrelationships.
They don't just trust becauseyou tell them you will.
You know, you've got to earnthat trust and so, yes, it's
very interesting and we're inthe system, right.
Arch Thomason (32:53):
And so if you've been in automotive, you
understand plan for every part,how much money, time, value
chain mapping goes into plan forevery part.
Well, this is plan for everyperson, right.
And so they have their own pageand they're going into their
one to ones and we're havingconversations that we've never
had before, frankly.
And so you know, I think one ofthe things that really kind of
(33:16):
jumps out to me is you, in orderto lead someone effectively,
you have to know them as anindividual, to understand them,
obviously, to help improve them,and different people want
different things, which is kindof a big call out for us.
So, and then every week they'rehitting.
Are they growing, are theydeclining?
I've messed up the numbersbecause, as a supply chain
(33:37):
executive, I've had a few badweeks where I'm surviving that
I'm just hanging in there by mytoes, and so it really just
opens up that dialogue and youreally get farther getting to
know someone on an individuallevel, to engage them, to win.
So that's, that's what we'veseen.
Diane Lowman (33:54):
So if we weren't participating in this platform
and I was late three times?
I came in, I went to myworkstation probably my
supervisor didn't have time totalk to me because he or she is
so busy getting orders out.
So I'm either going to decidewell, I'm going to stay and be
late five more times and getfired, or maybe this isn't the
(34:17):
place I want to be, because noone's even engaging with me to
find out what's going on.
The workforce today, like theschool children today, they
bring their problems to work andthey're looking for the teacher
to solve it, to work, andthey're looking for the teacher
(34:39):
to solve it.
Many of those people that cometo work for us bring their
problems and they're looking forus to solve them.
So it's a much more dynamicenvironment than what perhaps
you may not even haveexperienced it, but from our
standpoint it.
But from our standpoint what wehave experienced in the past
(34:59):
and we have got to do a betterjob taking care of our people
when I say that of course,everyone wants to make more
money, but we need to be engagedwith them, understand what's
going on in their lives and ifwe can help them, we need to.
Tom Goldsby (35:13):
Well, it occurs to me, Dinah, when you're
describing that again we'retrying to address the problem so
much of the focus is on thefrontline worker I mean, that's
where the churn is so immenseand again the drive to get the
orders out, and it's very easythen to fall back into that mode
of let's just tell them what todo, let's try to pay them a
(35:34):
competitive wage, cross ourfingers and hope that that's
enough to retain.
But it also occurs to me thatwe're asking a lot of those team
leaders then, to adapt to thisnew environment and this new way
of thinking and looking towardthe team member.
And so can you talk a littlebit about how this methodology
and tools really help to developthe team leaders to make that
(35:55):
pivot and be ready to embracetheir new role?
Robert Martichenko (35:58):
So let's talk team leaders Team member,
team leader, supervisor, manager, director, vp, ceo.
It's a pyramid, and so the teamleader is the very first
leadership position and it's theone you have the most of in an
organization.
Okay, here's a little stat forus 80% of team leaders were
(36:24):
never expecting to be in aleadership position.
They were tapped on theshoulder because they were a
great, whatever it wasindividual contributor, whatever
your industry is doing.
So they never intended to be aleader.
They got tapped on the shoulderand the data is showing that
90% of them received zerotraining when going into the new
(36:48):
team leader position.
100% of them are saying I needsome development in the research
that's being done at the teamleader level.
So, from a meaningful employmentenvironment point of view,
we're obviously focusing on thatand we're saying look, if Diane
and her management systems arepromoting people from the floor
(37:09):
to a team leader for very goodreasons, make sure that you A
end up with a good leader andmake sure B you just don't end
up losing a good individualcontributor.
It's a double-edged sword.
Not only do you end up with apoor leader, but you actually
lose a really good individualcontributor.
This is like you're ruiningboth sides of the coin in this
(37:31):
case.
So there's a big focus on whenyou promote, make sure people
are taught, and so forth.
Ted Stank (37:38):
So it also suggests that it puts a big additional
burden I don't want to call it aburden, that makes it really
negative Additionalresponsibility on those team
leaders to really dig in and getto know their people.
There's a lot resting on thoseteam leaders.
Does it mean additionalinvestment in headcount of team
leaders?
Because the way the world hasgone, I'm going to use my wife
(37:58):
as a nurse and you know she wasa floor nurse for several years
and she used to have fivepatients in a shift and, as
hospitals did, leaning and costcutting and all that kind of
stuff.
Today, if you have a nurse on afloor, they probably have 10
patients and a team leader, andthe team leader often is engaged
(38:19):
in dealing with patientsbecause somebody didn't show up
for their shift, and so thatteam leader also needs a
meaningful work environment,right?
So how do you help that teamleader?
Do you hire more team leadersin addition to giving them
training?
Is that part of the investment?
Arch Thomason (38:35):
You know, from our perspective, one of the
things and I don't know if youguys have experienced this a lot
of times it's easy to throwdirectives down downstream,
right, and it lands somewhere.
And so one of the things thatwe've worked with and the Trail
Pass team has done a great jobis this can't be about adding
work.
We're already stretched and theway our structure is with these
(38:56):
contracts, where we're working,we're not adding headcount,
right.
So we really the focus was howdo we make this easier?
And so we've worked with theteam Ben and the team and there
is actually a session thisafternoon where the people who
are actually doing the workManuel and Shannon are driving
this at the operational level.
We want to make it easier whereyou walk in and you get four
(39:19):
things to do.
Today.
Go say hi to John, because Johntook the hike on trust.
Good job, john.
Lisa requested a one-to-one.
We're big on one-to-one, so wethink it's very important.
Every two weeks you need tospend 15 minutes.
Even if it's 15 minutes with anindividual, understand what's
going on.
So we made that part of ourprocess and Lisa had an event
(39:40):
happen and was requesting 15minutes.
Great, well, guess what happenstoday?
Without the system, we don'tknow what we don't know and that
is being impacted on the floorand it may impact the entire
team.
This gives us visibility toproblems In supply chain.
We like visibility.
We like control towers.
This is a control tower for ourhuman capital.
(40:01):
It's from where we come from.
Tom Goldsby (40:04):
So the question I'm dying to ask, we've got to the
why, the what, the how.
So what Is this making adifference?
I mean, given where you are inthis journey, given the work
that you've undertaken.
I know this guy.
He's always learning, he'salways adapting.
But, with regard toimplementation, can you kind of
(40:27):
share with us where you are andwhat you've learned thus far,
and maybe any benefits thatyou're willing to share?
Diane Lowman (40:33):
First of all, this is the fourth time I've retired
and Sunland called me back inJune and said, could you come
back for maybe three or fourmonths?
And I said, sure, now I'm goingto stay a year.
But the point of it is that Ihad visited the site where we
(40:53):
have the pilot it's in GooseCreek Four years ago prior to my
departure.
I came back and went andvisited the site and there is a
remarkable difference in how theteam members engage with you.
They just it's a feelingthey're sharing when you go and
(41:14):
talk with them.
They're sharing what they'redoing and why they're doing it.
How remarkable is that?
And we're just in the infantstages of this platform, and if
this is an example of how it hasaffected that site and those 40
team members, then I'm excitedabout what it's going to do for
(41:37):
our organization.
Arch Thomason (41:39):
And it doesn't take a lot of time.
We have Friday weekly kickoffmeetings where the team gets
together and we will have adiscussion on the hike from last
week.
It's a group element.
Every other week you sit downand you have a 15 to 20 minute
one-to-one and then you alsohave, on that off week a 20
minute hike.
So that's the input and it'snot a lot of input.
(42:01):
And I can tell you we've foundleaders, potential leaders, that
we never knew wanted to beleaders in that site.
We have not lost some people weprobably would have lost had we
not had the dialogue they wouldhave pointed out because their
car broke down and they'resharing a car between three
people.
Okay, we can work with that.
So it really brings thoseproblems to the surface, and
(42:23):
Robert taught us lean and we'rejust trying to build that out.
So if we can keep them, if wecan retain them, if we can help
them grow and maybe get out ofthat economic issue that they're
dealing with with the car, thenit's a win for us and a win for
them.
That's what kind of the waywe're looking at it.
Diane Lowman (42:41):
It really has also helped those supervisors that
find it difficult to interact.
They want to, but they areuncomfortable.
So this gives a great platformto be able to start that
dialogue and once it starts, itjust blossoms.
Tom Goldsby (42:59):
Well, it's amazing to me.
It sounds like it enriches thework, it helps to solve problems
with that frontline workforce,but also the development of, you
say the team leads the work.
It helps to solve problems withthat frontline workforce, but
also the development of, you saythe team leads the supervisors.
Ted Stank (43:11):
And again, that dialogue that needs to happen
throughout the organization, upand down, up and back and forth,
is fantastic, tom, we have areally interesting question from
the audience here about whatrole alternate sources of labor,
such as temp and gig work andcooperative labor, play in
building this meaningfulworkforce.
I don't know if you all use anykind of temp work or anything
(43:31):
like that, but it's intriguingto me how that would plug into
this whole system.
Diane Lowman (43:36):
So our goal is to hire direct.
We do use temp agencies forpeak seasons or for special
projects.
I'm not telling you we stilldon't use temps.
But our goal is to hire directbecause our experience has been
that those team members willstay with us longer.
(43:57):
Now we've had some success withtemps, but again our goal is to
hire direct.
Robert Martichenko (44:04):
So if dignity is the guiding principle
and the operating principlestrust, and your intake strategy
is to bring 10 people in, hopingthree will kind of work out,
what does that tell people rightout of the gate?
If you're not willing to have aHR department big enough to
(44:26):
interview people, go through theprocess, build a relationship
and then hire somebody.
These are the types of paradigmshifts that Arch mentioned when
we first began.
There are fundamental paradigmshifts that have to take place,
the most important one beingthat the prosperity of the
(44:47):
organization and the prosperityof the team member are not
separate things.
They are one thing.
They're inextricably linked.
They are an ecosystem, they areinterdependent, they are
connected.
And I'll come up with some otherways of saying it.
I'll use my chat, vpt, and getsome more things.
(45:08):
They're one thing.
You don't have one without theother.
The cause and effect is unclear.
There's no way to figure it out.
There's no PDCA.
There's no root cause, there'sno five why?
Because it's one thing and itneeds to be managed like one
thing.
So when you think about howyou're bringing people in and
(45:31):
you're thinking about whatyou're saying right out of the
gate, what is it that you'retelling people?
Think about that, makeobservations inside your
organizations.
What are you really tellingpeople with that policy, with
that rule?
At the end of the day.
Tom Goldsby (45:50):
Well, fantastic, great question.
Thanks for that response andwe've got another fat on the
back you get a gold star, buddyDiane.
This question is directed toyou about.
We talked about themulti-generational workforce and
how the unique challenges,seemingly, that the new
generations present, and thisquestion's about those
differences that you'veencountered and tapping into
(46:13):
intrinsic motivators and workengagement that are seemingly
different Again, gen X.
You know money drove us allright.
Ted Stank (46:20):
As a boomer, I could see like I don't want to tell
you anything about what's goingon in my lifetime.
I just want to come to work.
Leave me alone, right.
Diane Lowman (46:27):
Right.
Thinking about the youngergenerations that are coming into
the workforce, this particularplatform is great for them
because they love to be oncomputers.
They love to be on their phones.
Think about the times that youhave tried to interact but
there's no reaction.
(46:48):
The first step is they're goingto enter comments in the system
.
That supervisor manager willread them.
That opens the door for us nowto have dialogue.
Tom Goldsby (47:00):
You know, the tool, I guess, is easy enough for
those of us that are not digitalnatives per se, but yet it's a
medium that your youngerworkforce is quite comfortable,
and then you're bringing maybealong the older workforce as
well.
Diane Lowman (47:15):
It takes a little more.
I'm a pencil and paper person.
I hate computers, I hate phones, I hate the whole thing.
But this particular platformappeals to me because it's
asking me questions, I can giveit feedback.
It's not complicated, so Ithink it appeals to all
generations.
Tom Goldsby (47:34):
Another audience question.
And you know, as we sit hereand listen and, by the way,
sunland Logistics just a great,great company and probably over
the course of this hour you'vegotten a sense of their values
as an organization, Truly acaring company.
I've had the opportunity tospend some time in Greenville,
client engagements and it's likea family environment, certainly
(47:58):
within the company but alsowith your customers.
I mean, it's just really tight.
And this question comes from,maybe, a place where maybe those
values aren't so firm or inplace on balancing the needs of
our people with the needs of thebusiness.
And maybe Arch you can speak tothat a little bit about.
You know, you said that youwent through the effort to try
(48:19):
to quantify the nature of thisproblem and say, hey, it's just
good business to invest in ourpeople, but for those folks
maybe haven't done that calculus.
Arch Thomason (48:29):
Yeah, I think I've tried to keep things very
simple and one of the thingsthat, from my perspective, in
order to be successful with anyrelationship or partner, it
needs to be win-win.
And that doesn't mean I wintwice right, win-win.
We both have to win, twiceright, win-win.
We both have to win.
And so I think to Robert'spoint we both need to win to
(48:50):
walk away and say it was a goodeffort, right?
So look, we have to make aprofit.
That is not negotiable, right?
We have bank covenants, we haveshareholders and we really
think this is.
You can't just leave this out.
We do not want to be low-costprovider or payer.
That's just not our strategy.
We want to provide the bestteam wins.
(49:12):
We think Very simple the bestteam wins.
And so how do we build out thatteam?
And why did the New EnglandPatriots win so many Super Bowls
?
They developed their people.
They paid them less than otherpeople too, but they built
something that people wanted togo and stay.
We're not going to pay less.
We have to be competitive.
The 3PL business is a toughbusiness.
(49:32):
Our margins are much less thanthe majority of shippers in this
room.
So we have competitive issuesthat we have to address and we
have those conversations.
Look, guys, we can't just goout and pay $5 more an hour.
It's not sustainable for us.
But how do we cut down thatturnover, improve the P&L and
then we reinvest in ourorganization.
(49:54):
It's important for us, for ourpeople and for our teams.
Look, you've got to manage it.
One doesn't work without theother.
So we think they're holistic innature.
Robert Martichenko (50:03):
That is a very, very profound question
because at the heart of it isdoing the right thing for people
is not great for the business.
Think about it.
That's the heart of thequestion.
How do you balance them?
So that would suggest that oneactually is one.
A positive here is a negativethere.
But if you think that we needto balance it and that's another
(50:25):
paradigm shift that justabsolutely has to change you go
into organizations and everyonehas the sign that people are our
greatest resource and all thisstuff.
And then you walk around andyou go oh, it doesn't really
look like they actually believethis.
And Ted said to me the otherday why aren't people walking
the talk?
And there's some very goodreasons for it.
(50:48):
Everybody says we got to do thebest thing for people, but then
our actions, our spousetheories and our theories in use
have a big gap.
Why?
And there's a couple of reasons, and I could be here for hours,
but there's two really, reallybig ones.
The first is at a leadershiplevel.
We still see employment as atransactional engagement.
(51:12):
I pay you, you show up.
Because I'm paying you, I getto have authority and control
and tell you what I want you todo.
You accept those terms becauseyou want to be paid.
And this is a deal.
It's a business transaction.
If you don't show up, I don'tpay you, and I never worried
(51:33):
about this not being the rightway to do it, because if you
don't show up, then I'm justgoing to get somebody else.
It didn't matter that it wastransactional.
So then you go okay, well, youknow, if we say it but we're not
doing it, why not?
And if your walk and talk havea gap, it's because it's not a
(51:55):
requirement.
Go into any healthy business andthere'll be things that they do
, no matter what, non-negotiable.
Why?
Because it's a requirement.
They have to do it.
It's not a preference.
A preference is we really likethe idea, we'll do it if we have
(52:16):
time, we'll do it if CEOs arepassionate about it, but it's
not actually a requirement.
So when things get crazy andthere's not enough hours in the
day, the preferences go away,the requirements stay in place
and we get those done.
Well, what's happening is thisidea of people being the most
important resource in theorganization, generally speaking
(52:38):
right now, is a preference.
It's not a requirement.
But here's the deal.
Read this paper because it isactually a requirement now.
Because the transactional CEOwho says just grind it out, pay
as little as you can pay, don'tworry about the environment.
There's three, four years ago,notwithstanding the pandemic,
(53:00):
they're still getting orders outthe door because they can churn
, because there's another person, there's another warm body to
replace the one that left.
But ah, now five jobs, fourpeople.
So if you, as a leadership team, if you still believe that this
is a transaction and you don'thave a responsibility to the
(53:20):
person, then it's not going tobe about still getting your
orders out the door because yougrinded it out.
It's going to be there.
Still getting your orders outthe door because you grinded it
out, it's going to be.
There's nobody in yourwarehouse working because
they're going to go someplacewhere they're being treated
properly.
So it will become a requirement, and as soon as something's a
requirement, then it gets done,and so this move from preference
(53:43):
to requirement is another shiftthat absolutely has to happen.
Ted Stank (53:47):
You know, robert, it strikes me as similar to the
customer revolution, right?
Every company, on their annualreport to shareholders, says
that customer is number one.
Yet how many, increasingly, howmany times do we call a
customer service number?
And you know, get on, how manyof you love calling your cable
TV provider, right, but customeris number one for them, right,
(54:11):
compared to calling a companyand you get somebody that picks
up the phone, it's like, oh myGod, and I think that's kind of
where you're going, right, howdo we make that intrinsic to who
we are?
Tom Goldsby (54:19):
But thank you very much for accelerating that
transition right, and it comesthrough careful study, right.
I mean we've got to treat itlike the problem that it is and
we've got to put the resourcesand time into it.
Hey, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Robert Diane Arch Fantastic.
Ted Stank (54:36):
A reminder also Robert mentioned it we're going
to have breakout sessions thisafternoon, that kind of drill
down deeper into several ofthese topics.
This will be one of thebreakout sessions.
Tom Goldsby (54:47):
That's it.
I feel like maybe, just maybe,we're transitioning to solution,
which is really exciting for us.
So, yeah, we've got thebreakout session a little bit
later and we probably ought toclose out the podcast.
Thank all our listeners outthere.
Ted Stank (54:57):
Yeah, we probably also have to do that.
Yeah, thanks everybody forlistening to the Tennessee on
Supply Chain Management podcast.
For those of you hereespecially, we will always
welcome questions or suggestionsfor speakers or topics.
Send your thoughts and input togsci at utkedu.
That's it All, right, thanksfor.
Tom Goldsby (55:15):
Rocky.
Ted Stank (55:16):
Tyler, thank you.
Introduction & Outro (55:19):
Thanks for tuning in to Tennessee on
Supply Chain Management.
If you enjoyed the episode,subscribe today on your favorite
listening platform to get allof our episodes as soon as they
drop, and don't forget to take amoment to leave us a rating.
Have any questions, thoughts orfeedback?
We'd love to hear from ourlisteners.
Email us at gsci at utkedu.
Join us next time as wecontinue pulling back the
(55:42):
curtain on the world of supplychain, educating and
entertaining you along the way.
Until then, listeners.
Welcome to the Tennessee on Supply Chain
Management podcast.
Listen in as co-hosts Ted Stankand Tom Goldsby set sail into
the world of end-to-end supplychain management, diving deep
into today's most relevantbusiness topics.
They'll share insights inpressing industry issues and
tackle the challenges keepingsupply chain professionals up at
night.
If you're enjoying the ride,download and subscribe to
(00:22):
Tennessee on Supply ChainManagement on your favorite
podcast platform now.
Ted Stank (00:28):
Welcome to the Tennessee on Supply Chain
Management podcast.
This is our November 2024episode, second episode of the
third season.
Right, I think that's where weare.
So we're signing up promotionalopportunities now, for we'll
start going to commercials atsome point.
Tom Goldsby (00:45):
Let's make it happen.
Always a revenue opportunityfor sure.
Robert Martichenko (00:48):
The Ted and Tom show I always wanted to be
on that Finally here, finally,finally, you made it.
And I would never ever evercorrect Dr Stank, but he's not
actually an old boomer, he's ayoung boomer.
So if we're going to andconsidering you wrote this you
should know the differencebetween a young boomer and an
old boomer.
Ted Stank (01:07):
I'll accept that On the front edge, I'm feeling more
and more every day like an oldboomer.
But that notwithstanding, I'lltake the young boomer
designation.
Tom Goldsby (01:16):
Well, we are so excited to have this session
Should also probably provide ourlisteners with a little bit of
background where we're comingfrom.
We're coming to you liverecording at the Supply Chain
Forum, coming to you from RockyTop, your host, Ted, and Tom
here.
But we're thrilled to be joinedby three guests today Our
panelists, Robert Martichenko,who is board chair of Trailpath
(01:38):
Workplace Solutions, workingwith Supply Chain Forum partner
company, Sunland LogisticsSolutions, and we're delighted
to have the CEO, Arch Thomason,and the vice president of human
resources, Diane Lohman, to talkabout what I think is perhaps
the most, dare I say, peskypervasive I don't know what term
(02:01):
we want to put on talent insupply chain management.
Regardless of where we goaround this nation, around this
world, people say a top one, two, three challenge we have in
supply chain management, inbusiness, dare I even say in
society, is attracting,developing and retaining talent.
The problem is sufficientlyframed.
We all feel it, we understandit to an extent, but I've not
(02:26):
seen much in the way ofsolutions and in that regard,
I'm really thrilled that we havea white paper that we're
unveiling here at the forum,called Unlocking the Potential
of the Gen XYZ Labor Force,which is an effort we've made
right here at UT to again try tounderstand and maybe work
toward solutions.
Ted, you are a co-author on thisreport.
(02:47):
What's kind of the upshot ofwhat you learned in doing this
research?
Ted Stank (02:52):
The upshot is that we need to be aware of how
different generations look atwork and what they want to get
out of work.
Particularly as leaders ofthese organizations, we need to
be sensitive to what thesedifferent generations are
looking for from work and how dowe keep them engaged and
actualized, if you will, so theystay with us, because retention
(03:12):
is a huge issue for all of ourorganizations.
It costs us a lot in ways thatshow up definitely on our income
statements, but also in waysthat impact our cultures and our
ability to serve customers inmany, many ways, and so all of
our executives that make theirway here to Knoxville, tennessee
, which is not easy for most ofthem, will tell us that they
come because we are a primarytalent provider for them, and
(03:36):
anything we can work on togetherto help improve not only talent
development, but talentretention is something that's
really beneficial because it ison every leader's top three Arch
.
I would refer to you.
Is it a top one?
It's top one today?
Yeah, I would believe that and,by the way, this isn't a
temporary issue.
It's not going away.
Every industrialized country inthe world is seeing a shrinking
(03:59):
population by I believe it's2050,.
The UN believes that we willstart seeing a global population
decline.
Just to give you a little bitof a note that the US is in this
.
It's hit Western Europe andsome of the nations in Asia
already China, korea, japan.
But the United States over thelast three years has had a 1.63
(04:23):
births per woman statistic.
So statistically you have tohave 2.1 children born for every
woman in a country just tomaintain a stable population.
We have had 1.63 over the lastfour years, which means we're
shrinking.
I believe Italy is like 1.2.
I think South Korea is 0.8.
So all of our industrializedcountries, including China.
(04:46):
You know, if you think of Chinaas growing, they're not,
they're shrinking.
And so talent and talentretention is going to become a
bigger and bigger issue for theyoungest one of you in here as
you go through your careers.
Tom Goldsby (04:57):
So that would seem to suggest it's going to be a
problem that gets even worsethan it is now.
And it's already, as Archindicates, the number one
problem perhaps within ourindustry.
And as I look at this report,gen X, y, z I'm Gen X, all right
, and you might say, well, ok,to satisfy someone like Goldsby,
all you got to do is pipe inPearl Jam and Nirvana into the
(05:19):
workplace and it's all going tobe fine.
But I got to tell you I'mgetting influenced by Gens Y and
Z.
Right, they're expecting moreof the workplace and I'm like,
well, if they can expect more,why can't we right?
It's not just our ability toinfluence those future
generations, but thosegenerations coming into the
workplace now are influencingthe Xs and the boomers.
Ted Stank (05:41):
That's why I live in Beaufort, North Carolina.
Tom Goldsby (05:51):
That's fair enough.
Yeah, good point.
Well, again I think we've kindof framed the global
circumstance and again it'sright here in front of us.
I think everyone in the room isexperiencing it one way or
another.
So, robert, you come to us withdeep, deep experience and
background lean thinking.
I think I've written a fewbooks and articles with you on
that subject.
You have it was you right andyou built your career.
You started a company calledLeanCore that became the global
(06:14):
brand in lean thinking appliedto supply chain practice.
You built the company.
What about four years ago?
Yes, and what has been yourpassion since selling Linkor,
and why is it in this area ofmeaningful employment
opportunity?
Robert Martichenko (06:32):
Well, after my company was sold, I thought
my passion was going to behiking and figuring out how to
get all the 14ers done inColorado, in Colorado, but then
my pal Arch called me and toldme that our industry, the
third-party logistics industry,has a challenge on its hand
relative to people, operationsindustries think transportation,
(06:55):
think warehousing, thinkmanufacturing, the supply chain
industries we're dealing atnormalizing for regional
differences, companies that areran by very caring people like
Arch and Diane are dealing withturnover rates in the 40, 50, 60
, 70, 80 percent per year, andso it's not because they're not
(07:17):
trying.
There's something going on, andit's about the perfect storm of
the population, demographicschanging attitudes, the fact
that what all those thingsresult in, though, is we have a
shrinking workforce, which meansif there's five jobs, there's
only four people, which meanspeople have choices, which means
you're going to use the powerof choice and you're going to
(07:38):
work where you want to work,where it's going to feel
purposeful, where you're goingto feel ownership, where you're
going to feel like you canengage in continuous improvement
and be a life learner and allof the things that you want in
life.
And the fact is, is that thatchanging, that modernizing of
the attitude of the employee.
(07:58):
As industry, our organizationshave not kept up.
It's not like we haven't tried,but we've been busy doing other
things, because every singleindustry in the world is being
disrupted by now somehow bycompetitors or technologies or
so forth, and we didn't keep upwith the people side of things.
We kept up with the processimprovement side, we kept up
(08:18):
with the tech side, we didn'tkeep up with the people side of
things, and so that's what we'regoing to try to do.
We're going to attempt workingwith people like Arch and Diane
and other people who believe inthe people side of industry.
We're going to see if we can'tscale some things that have
never been scaled before, likeleadership behaviors, like team
(08:40):
member participation, like teammember participation, and with
the end goal being to see if wecan design and articulate what a
meaningful employmentenvironment would really be for
everybody, regardless of yourgeneration or your age in the
workforce.
Tom Goldsby (08:54):
So that's the mission and Arch, you said this
is the number one concern thatyou have as CEO at Sunland.
Can you kind of frame that upfor?
Arch Thomason (09:02):
us.
Sure, this really started ourconversations in 2020 with the
advent of COVID, and everyone inthe supply chain remembers that
.
And we, literally in multiplemarkets across the country, we
couldn't find labor.
They were not existent.
And so we see that in themarketplace and I'm traveling
(09:23):
throughout the country andeverywhere is a labor problem.
The dental hygienists areattorneys Right, it was across
the board.
And I'm talking to Robert, who'sactually studying demographics
and he's saying this is going toget worse.
And so for us as anorganization, as a 3PL, as a
service provider, people are thefoundation for our success.
(09:44):
Now, everyone says that, butcompany doesn't say that.
But, like, this is the essenceof our organization 72% of our
costs of a 3PL are employeerelated.
This is a big deal.
And so in our industry, in ourcompany, our industry's 40%
turnover is a standard, andDiane was even telling us last
(10:07):
night across the board and I'lllet Diane talk about it it's 46%
.
Well, how do you build a teamwhen you're turning over half
your people every year?
It's hard to do that.
So, you know, from myperspective, it was.
I keep hearing the problem, butI don't hear a definitive
solution anywhere.
Everybody complains, but Idon't hear we're doing this
(10:31):
other than we're throwing moneyat the problem, and Robert,
being the thinker, he is reallyhad time and took a lot of hikes
and came up with, I think, withhis team, a really valid
solution to maybe take us out ofthis.
So that's why we're here andthat's why we're joined, and
it's very exciting from myperspective.
Tom Goldsby (10:47):
Well, that's amazing and again, I think
you've just iterated, dare I say, some of the frustration that I
spoke of just moments ago.
Again, we understand it's aproblem.
What are we going to do aboutit?
Diane, as vice president ofhuman resources, you're at the
front lines of it.
I think a lot of organizationsjust say, well, just keep,
devise strategy to refill theleaking bucket, but what are you
(11:10):
doing in the way of putting aseal, maybe, on that bucket and
developing the people that youactually attract?
Retain?
Diane Lowman (11:18):
So many of our team members have expressed
desires to move up in thecompany, and we've looked at
ways to do that.
But there's some very basicelements to having a workforce
that wants to stay with yourcompany and that's them
(11:38):
believing that they can trust us.
And as I'm speaking today, Iwould like for you all to not
just think about your employees,team members, associates,
whatever you may call yoursupport functions on the floor.
Think about yourselves.
When we talk about trust, whenwe talked about dignity, and
(12:01):
when we talk about a workenvironment where you find
purpose, think about yourself inaddition to thinking about
those people that you'reresponsible for.
So, back to your question wehave tried many initiatives in
engaging with our team members.
(12:22):
It's very important engagingwith our team members.
It's very important,specifically from the HR team.
We need to be out on that floorevery day, engaging with our
team members, diffusing issuesthat can fester, understanding
what's going on in their lives,making them know that we do care
about them.
(12:44):
In conjunction with that, wealso have to run a business.
In order for us to be able toretain our team members and have
them grow with our company, weneed to make sure that they know
that we care that they cantrust us, and you have to think
about what does trust mean toyou and what does trust mean to
(13:07):
them.
We can certainly say manythings to our team members, but
if they don't see us walking thewalk, it doesn't mean a thing
to them, and I think sometimeswe as leaders don't give our
team members enough credit.
If you're not sincere, theyknow you're not sincere, so
(13:29):
don't even bother trying.
The most important thing is wehave to be sincere.
They know that we care andthey're working for a company
that will help and work withthem.
Tom Goldsby (13:42):
Well, there was a lot there, diane for sure.
So how do you get thisorganized?
And I'm thinking about yourhikes, robert, all right.
So, given the problem, giventhe need, how do you get
organized around this?
What is a meaningful employmentenvironment to start off with?
Robert Martichenko (14:00):
So this initiative started when Arch
called and we also have thepleasure of having a lot of
friends who care about thisstuff Dr Langley, who's here the
first time I was ever at theschool, I moved from Canada to
Evansville, indiana, and thefirst time I was ever at U of T
was like I was seeing it lastnight, like 1999, 2000.
I was here helping Toyota buildtheir infrastructure in North
(14:22):
America.
So I have the honor andpleasure of having a lot of very
good friends that I love dearlyand they own companies, many of
them and they're dealing withthe same thing with art.
So we got two years ago we gotbeta sites.
Three organizations one inCanada, one in California, one
(14:42):
in South Carolina said come in,do whatever you need, ask for
data whatever, just come in.
And we did the work.
We did it in a scientific way,as a kid from Timmins, ontario,
could do, and I tapped intopeople that know how to do this
work properly.
And we built the framework.
We started we had about 100things that people want as the
(15:05):
characteristics of a meaningfulemployment environment and then
we said that's too much.
We can't deal with 100 things.
It's not possible in aworkplace.
It's too complicated, toocomplex.
So we got it down to two things, and these two things are
dignity and meaningful work.
I want to be treated like avaluable for no other reason
(15:27):
than I'm a human being, notbecause I'm successful, not
because I have a great resume,not because I aced that project.
Treat me with value because I'ma human being.
And then, second, meaningfulwork.
The work has to be meaningful.
We did our value stream mapping, which we've done a thousand
(15:47):
times, doing flow on materialand information flow.
We did it on people and wewatched people and when you
remove breaks and lunch, 78% ofthe day is doing the work.
So if the work is miserable,then your day's gonna be
miserable.
You can't get around that.
This is not complicated 16second hit and runs.
(16:28):
And at a hit and run, only twothings happen you walk away
feeling like you just hadsomething taken from you or you
walk away feeling like you weregiven something.
This is the dignity aspects.
Two things dignity andmeaningful work.
Now they cascade.
So you go how do you implementthat?
Because we can't just leave itat that and they cascade to
trust and fundamental needs fordignity and they cascade to the
(16:50):
work environment and the workitself for meaningful work.
So a framework was created, andnow the work that's being done
is to vet out and understandwhere the framework will be
easily validated, where it won'tbe easily validated, and what
we're going to need to do.
People's stuff is complicated.
(17:11):
It really is.
My wife's been telling me thatabout myself for years and I
never believed it.
Now I'm going you're right, weare complicated, apparently.
Ted Stank (17:20):
So can you all give us some concrete examples of
what this means?
I mean, dignity is a greatconstruct, but, as a professor,
a construct is latent, right,it's up there in the cloud and
it's hard to define andoperationalize.
So what are some of the keys totreating people with dignity in
the workforce?
And then the secondary questionis how do you make what often
(17:43):
is routine work meaningful?
Diane Lowman (17:48):
So one of the most important things and again
looking at yourself as well ishow can we make our team members
feel a part of what we do everyday?
We talked about generations,boomers.
I'm one.
Give me my cold watch, I'll goaway, okay, but there are others
that are looking for meaningfulwork.
(18:10):
Teach me about who the customeris, because we're a 3PL
organization.
Who are we servicing?
Why is what I do every dayimportant?
I want to be part.
I want to have ownership inshipping that faucet.
Let me understand more and morethe purpose of me shipping this
(18:32):
correctly Ownership, feeling apart of something.
Also, many times, your teammembers on the floor know a lot
more than that supervisor and alot more than that ops manager,
and we don't give them creditfor that.
We need to honor theircontribution to their work and
(18:54):
also their knowledge and theirability to help us to do our
jobs more efficiently, and theywill feel a part of Sunland and
by feeling a part of it, theywill want to leave less.
Arch Thomason (19:09):
We had an example recently, a couple of weeks ago
, we had a storm in SouthCarolina, where I live, and just
we're talking about structures,right, that have been existing
forever and as we talk aboutdignity, so we had a couple of
sites go down for a couple ofdays.
One site in particular wentdown for eight days and 44
(19:29):
people at that site, notransactions, no trucks in, no
trucks out, and under thecurrent structure, salary got
paid.
But under that currentstructure, if the hourly team
members did not work, they wouldnot get paid.
Now, who can afford at thispoint in time to not get a
paycheck for eight days of work,right, and so we paid it, like
(19:52):
we were in a position where wecould do that and we would.
But I think, just thinkingabout challenging structure, I
mean the thing where I'm comingfrom and Robert and I talked is
the people who are making ourbeds, who are cooking, who are
picking orders in our warehouseslive a very different life than
we do.
They just do Right.
I mean, the decisions they'remaking, the choices they're
(20:15):
making, are very different fromthe people in this room.
Now, from my perspective, Idon't want the government, I
don't want unions to tell us.
We need to do this.
I think it's a business problemand I think we can solve it,
but I think it's going to takesome challenging of the current
status quo and how we thinkabout things.
Robert and I talked last nightFrom my perspective.
(20:37):
I'd rather pay less people, moremoney.
I just would right.
How do we become more efficient?
How do we help people developand grow and to be competitive?
But there are some basic needs.
Think Maslow's hierarchy.
This is Robert's baseline.
You got to take care.
Are they safe?
Are they secure?
Are they struggling If theycan't get their kids new shoes
(20:57):
when they go back to school?
These are the decisions they'remaking.
As an employer, I don't wantthat for anyone on my team,
right, and neither does Diane.
So we've got to look at this.
We've got to change someparadigms, I think and we're
just addressing that thissoftware and we take the hikes
they call them hikes and we'reasking questions of our
frontline team members thatwe've never asked before, and I
(21:20):
think it's something that isreally going to benefit us as a
for-profit organization longterm.
Tom Goldsby (21:26):
So when you say go take a hike, that's actually a
positive thing.
Robert Martichenko (21:30):
Well, yes, yes.
Well, to introduce another term, which is we call a rollback,
(22:00):
no-transcript, just surviving,which means I've got to stay
because I have bills to pay, butI'm absolutely.
There's zero joy in this for me, then, or growing meaning you
know what.
This might just work, thismight just work, and then
(22:22):
thriving is this is working forme and our data and we now have
thousands of data points becausewe've been able to digitize the
work now 50% of people in theworkplace, regardless of
position, are identifying withdeclining or just surviving in
their workplace.
Go to the Bureau of Labor andStatistics.
The national turnover rate inthe United States across all
(22:44):
industries private andgovernment and not-for-profit is
47% a year.
That's the churn at a macro USlevel.
This is a problem.
Yes, it's an opportunity toimprove and I get that.
I'm from that world.
Changing the narratives.
(23:04):
It's not a problem, it'sactually an opportunity.
I understand that this is aproblem and it's going to impact
all of us, and it's a humanproblem.
It's not just a workplaceproblem.
The paradigm shifts that Archjust mentioned about and we can
get into these these aren'tworkplace paradigms, these are
human belief paradigms.
(23:26):
Dr Elijah Ray, one of thosecherished friends I told you
about.
He understands all this stuffwhen we talk about it.
This idea that our home lifeand our work life and our
personal lives and ourprofessional lives are somehow
separated and are in differentbuckets that's a false notion.
It's fundamentally false and wehave to get our arms around
(23:49):
that.
And industry has to play a roleand we as team members have to
play a role, has to play a roleand we as team members have to
play a role.
If Arch makes the investment asthe owner and Diane does the
work as the leader, then teammembers have to participate and
if you don't, then maybe youdon't need to be there because
they're doing their part.
And this is extremely importantfor us to understand that this
(24:12):
is everybody's got a helmet on,everybody's on the field and
this is full contact, becausethis is a big problem and big
problems only get solved by fullcontact kind of mentalities.
Is that a football?
Tom Goldsby (24:27):
thing.
Yeah, I think so that works fora Canadian.
I told Tom I'd try my best.
Man, I was a little worriedthere we're not hiking anymore.
Ted Stank (24:37):
We're not hiking anymore.
We got the pads on now.
Tom Goldsby (24:40):
So, robert, as it would happen, yesterday we were
pontificating, we were out on ahike.
Robert Martichenko (24:44):
We were out on a digital.
We were.
We went to Norris Dam.
Tom Goldsby (24:47):
And we were talking about again the lean journey
which we've been a part of andso many organizations with which
you've worked have been a partof, and the effort that we made
for so many years to kind ofquantify the problem.
We refer to it as the hiddenfactory right, these hidden
factories of waste that permeateand perpetuate throughout our
(25:07):
organizations.
And you likened what we'regoing through now with this
search for a talent solution towhat we've experienced with the
old hidden factory discussionswe were having of bygone years.
It's just as you point out, wewere focused on process, process
, process.
Now you're focused on people.
Robert Martichenko (25:24):
Well, and I'll introduce it and then I'll
throw it over to Arch becausehe's got some great opinions on
the cost of this instability.
But there was a term called thehidden factory.
This has been a manufacturingterm for decades and what the
hidden factory was was inventorypeople doing rework machines
that weren't running, so you'redoing things manually.
That was called the hiddenfactory and it wasn't captured
(25:47):
in P&Ls.
But we've done a very good jobwith the hidden factory.
Any manufacturing organizationsthat have embraced operational
excellence or lean thinking orcontinuous improvement cultures
have done a very good job.
But there's a new modern dayhidden factory and that is the
cost of workforce instabilityBecause like the old hidden
(26:08):
factory, it's not visible and,arch, I know you and your team
did some work just around thecost stuff of this right, the
turnover.
Arch Thomason (26:17):
Yeah, we did.
And, as we think about it, wehave a Sunland management system
and it's fundamentally fivethings people, process
technology and then quantifiedvalue to customers and financial
performance.
Our president, hari, alwayssays in people process
technology, people is 80%,process tech is 10 and 10.
So I think that kind of puts itinto perspective of what we're
(26:41):
dealing with.
But you talk about thatinstability we have at Sunland,
just with our turnoverannualized last year about a $2
million problem.
And so from my perspective,supply chain, we go for low
hanging fruit.
Right, that's what we do.
Where's the pain?
And so we made what I would sayis a small investment.
This is a software as a serviceplatform with some training
(27:05):
relative to other CapEx projectswe're doing.
This is so small for such a bigpotential win Two million bucks
.
That is in our P&L today.
Now, where does it show up?
All over the place, it's not inthat one line item.
That sometimes to your waist.
Where is it?
It's hard to quantify, but weknow it exists and it's probably
higher when you take outnon-productivity and some things
(27:28):
like that that we know exists.
So it's a really big issuerelative to our overall spend
and we have to do something.
We can't sit around and pointat the trash can and say there's
trash on the floor, let's gopick something up and see what
happens.
It really, for us was ano-brainer and we're committed
to this and we will see results.
Ted Stank (27:49):
From my perspective, Can you all define for us
specifically what the frameworkis?
And you mentioned the softwareas a service.
What is?
Robert Martichenko (27:56):
it.
So the framework itself,meaningful employment
environment are the things thatare the meaningful employment
environment.
Dignity, meaningful work, trust.
Fundamental needs need to be inplace the work environment and
then the work, and then thatcascades to some things.
And then it would have said, ok, well, this would have made a
fantastic consulting product.
We could go in and we couldconsult and you could do your
(28:19):
work.
But that was never theobjective here, because LeanCore
had three things going on andone of it was consulting.
I know what it's like to run aconsulting company.
You can't scale it.
Consulting is not scalable.
And I'm 60 now.
I only have, you know, whatever10 more really good years where
I'll be smart or as smart as Iam, if that's even smart.
(28:42):
So I'm not interested inbuilding a consulting company.
I want to scale something.
Man, I want to make adifference.
Like, really, I don't want toimpact a thousand people, I want
to impact a million people, 10million people.
So we said we got to be able toscale this.
And but what are we scaling?
We're scaling behaviors andparticipation.
(29:05):
How do you do that?
Let me give you one, and Idon't want to steal the thunder,
because Manuel and Shannon andClint and Ben have a breakout
session.
But, ted, you asked OK, well,how do you build trust?
Well, one of the elements ofbuilding trust is to tell your
story.
You know like people come intowork, they've come from a
(29:25):
different organization.
They might've had a good boss,a bad boss, a good experience, a
bad experience, and nothing inthe system gets you to know
about that.
So you come in.
The person might have just hadan experience where the boss was
a taskmaster, toxic.
Well, wouldn't it be helpful toknow that, to maybe know that
they've been kicked a little bitin their life?
(29:47):
Well, how do you do that?
What system does that?
So we're saying, well then, thesystem's got to collect that.
So, through the platform, we'resaying, well then, the system's
got to collect that.
So, through the platform, we'reforcing that conversation.
Diane, maybe you've got somethoughts on that too.
Diane Lowman (30:00):
Well, I think that one thing is, when we go and
meet with our team members,we're tellers.
This platform allows us to bepartners so that they can share
with us what's going on in theirlife.
So they come in and they sayI'm having a bad day, well,
(30:21):
what's going on?
And they have an opportunity torecord what's going on.
There's a ping.
Their supervisor goes and readsokay, something's going on.
So that's an automatic flag.
I need to go and meet with thatteam member to find out what's
going on.
So that's an automatic flag Ineed to go and meet with that
team member to find out what'sgoing on.
We make such assumptions aboutwhat's going on in our team
(30:44):
members' lives.
What about they're havingproblems getting back and forth
to work?
They've been late three days.
Okay, you've been late threedays.
You're going to get threepoints.
Once you get to eight, you'regoing to be fired.
Whoa, there's got to be areason why you've been late
three days in a row and thisplatform gives that team member
(31:06):
an opportunity to be able toexplain that.
And then they get together astheir supervisor and team member
and they talk about it.
Then they get together as theirsupervisor and team member and
they talk about it.
Maybe there's a way we can helpthis person.
We're not a firing company.
We want good people to staywith us.
We have to understand what'sgoing on in their lives and how
(31:27):
can we help them.
Ted Stank (31:30):
Is this something they log in every day when they
come into work and answer aseries of questions or have a
chance to provide feedback?
Robert Martichenko (31:37):
50% learning and 50% participation.
So let's go hone in on stories.
Well, the first thing, beforeyou go and ask somebody to tell
you whether they were everkicked by a boss, before they
need to understand why, it'seven important to know that they
were kicked by a boss beforecontext.
My oldest daughter is inmanhattan working at trying to
(32:01):
be a working actor, and I havethese amazing conversations with
her, and I'm a writer as well.
So, but she's told me about theplot of a story.
So when I watch movies now Iget get them.
There's dialogue.
What's being said?
There's the subtext.
What's really being said.
Do you mean you want me to tellyou whether I was kicked before
(32:37):
by a boss?
Like, why would you want that?
Right, because, let's remembernow, people that have don't have
never had trustingrelationships.
They don't just trust becauseyou tell them you will.
You know, you've got to earnthat trust and so, yes, it's
very interesting and we're inthe system, right.
Arch Thomason (32:53):
And so if you've been in automotive, you
understand plan for every part,how much money, time, value
chain mapping goes into plan forevery part.
Well, this is plan for everyperson, right.
And so they have their own pageand they're going into their
one to ones and we're havingconversations that we've never
had before, frankly.
And so you know, I think one ofthe things that really kind of
(33:16):
jumps out to me is you, in orderto lead someone effectively,
you have to know them as anindividual, to understand them,
obviously, to help improve them,and different people want
different things, which is kindof a big call out for us.
So, and then every week they'rehitting.
Are they growing, are theydeclining?
I've messed up the numbersbecause, as a supply chain
(33:37):
executive, I've had a few badweeks where I'm surviving that
I'm just hanging in there by mytoes, and so it really just
opens up that dialogue and youreally get farther getting to
know someone on an individuallevel, to engage them, to win.
So that's, that's what we'veseen.
Diane Lowman (33:54):
So if we weren't participating in this platform
and I was late three times?
I came in, I went to myworkstation probably my
supervisor didn't have time totalk to me because he or she is
so busy getting orders out.
So I'm either going to decidewell, I'm going to stay and be
late five more times and getfired, or maybe this isn't the
(34:17):
place I want to be, because noone's even engaging with me to
find out what's going on.
The workforce today, like theschool children today, they
bring their problems to work andthey're looking for the teacher
to solve it, to work, andthey're looking for the teacher
(34:39):
to solve it.
Many of those people that cometo work for us bring their
problems and they're looking forus to solve them.
So it's a much more dynamicenvironment than what perhaps
you may not even haveexperienced it, but from our
standpoint it.
But from our standpoint what wehave experienced in the past
(34:59):
and we have got to do a betterjob taking care of our people
when I say that of course,everyone wants to make more
money, but we need to be engagedwith them, understand what's
going on in their lives and ifwe can help them, we need to.
Tom Goldsby (35:13):
Well, it occurs to me, Dinah, when you're
describing that again we'retrying to address the problem so
much of the focus is on thefrontline worker I mean, that's
where the churn is so immenseand again the drive to get the
orders out, and it's very easythen to fall back into that mode
of let's just tell them what todo, let's try to pay them a
(35:34):
competitive wage, cross ourfingers and hope that that's
enough to retain.
But it also occurs to me thatwe're asking a lot of those team
leaders then, to adapt to thisnew environment and this new way
of thinking and looking towardthe team member.
And so can you talk a littlebit about how this methodology
and tools really help to developthe team leaders to make that
(35:55):
pivot and be ready to embracetheir new role?
Robert Martichenko (35:58):
So let's talk team leaders Team member,
team leader, supervisor, manager, director, vp, ceo.
It's a pyramid, and so the teamleader is the very first
leadership position and it's theone you have the most of in an
organization.
Okay, here's a little stat forus 80% of team leaders were
(36:24):
never expecting to be in aleadership position.
They were tapped on theshoulder because they were a
great, whatever it wasindividual contributor, whatever
your industry is doing.
So they never intended to be aleader.
They got tapped on the shoulderand the data is showing that
90% of them received zerotraining when going into the new
(36:48):
team leader position.
100% of them are saying I needsome development in the research
that's being done at the teamleader level.
So, from a meaningful employmentenvironment point of view,
we're obviously focusing on thatand we're saying look, if Diane
and her management systems arepromoting people from the floor
(37:09):
to a team leader for very goodreasons, make sure that you A
end up with a good leader andmake sure B you just don't end
up losing a good individualcontributor.
It's a double-edged sword.
Not only do you end up with apoor leader, but you actually
lose a really good individualcontributor.
This is like you're ruiningboth sides of the coin in this
(37:31):
case.
So there's a big focus on whenyou promote, make sure people
are taught, and so forth.
Ted Stank (37:38):
So it also suggests that it puts a big additional
burden I don't want to call it aburden, that makes it really
negative Additionalresponsibility on those team
leaders to really dig in and getto know their people.
There's a lot resting on thoseteam leaders.
Does it mean additionalinvestment in headcount of team
leaders?
Because the way the world hasgone, I'm going to use my wife
(37:58):
as a nurse and you know she wasa floor nurse for several years
and she used to have fivepatients in a shift and, as
hospitals did, leaning and costcutting and all that kind of
stuff.
Today, if you have a nurse on afloor, they probably have 10
patients and a team leader, andthe team leader often is engaged
(38:19):
in dealing with patientsbecause somebody didn't show up
for their shift, and so thatteam leader also needs a
meaningful work environment,right?
So how do you help that teamleader?
Do you hire more team leadersin addition to giving them
training?
Is that part of the investment?
Arch Thomason (38:35):
You know, from our perspective, one of the
things and I don't know if youguys have experienced this a lot
of times it's easy to throwdirectives down downstream,
right, and it lands somewhere.
And so one of the things thatwe've worked with and the Trail
Pass team has done a great jobis this can't be about adding
work.
We're already stretched and theway our structure is with these
(38:56):
contracts, where we're working,we're not adding headcount,
right.
So we really the focus was howdo we make this easier?
And so we've worked with theteam Ben and the team and there
is actually a session thisafternoon where the people who
are actually doing the workManuel and Shannon are driving
this at the operational level.
We want to make it easier whereyou walk in and you get four
(39:19):
things to do.
Today.
Go say hi to John, because Johntook the hike on trust.
Good job, john.
Lisa requested a one-to-one.
We're big on one-to-one, so wethink it's very important.
Every two weeks you need tospend 15 minutes.
Even if it's 15 minutes with anindividual, understand what's
going on.
So we made that part of ourprocess and Lisa had an event
(39:40):
happen and was requesting 15minutes.
Great, well, guess what happenstoday?
Without the system, we don'tknow what we don't know and that
is being impacted on the floorand it may impact the entire
team.
This gives us visibility toproblems In supply chain.
We like visibility.
We like control towers.
This is a control tower for ourhuman capital.
(40:01):
It's from where we come from.
Tom Goldsby (40:04):
So the question I'm dying to ask, we've got to the
why, the what, the how.
So what Is this making adifference?
I mean, given where you are inthis journey, given the work
that you've undertaken.
I know this guy.
He's always learning, he'salways adapting.
But, with regard toimplementation, can you kind of
(40:27):
share with us where you are andwhat you've learned thus far,
and maybe any benefits thatyou're willing to share?
Diane Lowman (40:33):
First of all, this is the fourth time I've retired
and Sunland called me back inJune and said, could you come
back for maybe three or fourmonths?
And I said, sure, now I'm goingto stay a year.
But the point of it is that Ihad visited the site where we
(40:53):
have the pilot it's in GooseCreek Four years ago prior to my
departure.
I came back and went andvisited the site and there is a
remarkable difference in how theteam members engage with you.
They just it's a feelingthey're sharing when you go and
(41:14):
talk with them.
They're sharing what they'redoing and why they're doing it.
How remarkable is that?
And we're just in the infantstages of this platform, and if
this is an example of how it hasaffected that site and those 40
team members, then I'm excitedabout what it's going to do for
(41:37):
our organization.
Arch Thomason (41:39):
And it doesn't take a lot of time.
We have Friday weekly kickoffmeetings where the team gets
together and we will have adiscussion on the hike from last
week.
It's a group element.
Every other week you sit downand you have a 15 to 20 minute
one-to-one and then you alsohave, on that off week a 20
minute hike.
So that's the input and it'snot a lot of input.
(42:01):
And I can tell you we've foundleaders, potential leaders, that
we never knew wanted to beleaders in that site.
We have not lost some people weprobably would have lost had we
not had the dialogue they wouldhave pointed out because their
car broke down and they'resharing a car between three
people.
Okay, we can work with that.
So it really brings thoseproblems to the surface, and
(42:23):
Robert taught us lean and we'rejust trying to build that out.
So if we can keep them, if wecan retain them, if we can help
them grow and maybe get out ofthat economic issue that they're
dealing with with the car, thenit's a win for us and a win for
them.
That's what kind of the waywe're looking at it.
Diane Lowman (42:41):
It really has also helped those supervisors that
find it difficult to interact.
They want to, but they areuncomfortable.
So this gives a great platformto be able to start that
dialogue and once it starts, itjust blossoms.
Tom Goldsby (42:59):
Well, it's amazing to me.
It sounds like it enriches thework, it helps to solve problems
with that frontline workforce,but also the development of, you
say the team leads the work.
It helps to solve problems withthat frontline workforce, but
also the development of, you saythe team leads the supervisors.
Ted Stank (43:11):
And again, that dialogue that needs to happen
throughout the organization, upand down, up and back and forth,
is fantastic, tom, we have areally interesting question from
the audience here about whatrole alternate sources of labor,
such as temp and gig work andcooperative labor, play in
building this meaningfulworkforce.
I don't know if you all use anykind of temp work or anything
(43:31):
like that, but it's intriguingto me how that would plug into
this whole system.
Diane Lowman (43:36):
So our goal is to hire direct.
We do use temp agencies forpeak seasons or for special
projects.
I'm not telling you we stilldon't use temps.
But our goal is to hire directbecause our experience has been
that those team members willstay with us longer.
(43:57):
Now we've had some success withtemps, but again our goal is to
hire direct.
Robert Martichenko (44:04):
So if dignity is the guiding principle
and the operating principlestrust, and your intake strategy
is to bring 10 people in, hopingthree will kind of work out,
what does that tell people rightout of the gate?
If you're not willing to have aHR department big enough to
(44:26):
interview people, go through theprocess, build a relationship
and then hire somebody.
These are the types of paradigmshifts that Arch mentioned when
we first began.
There are fundamental paradigmshifts that have to take place,
the most important one beingthat the prosperity of the
(44:47):
organization and the prosperityof the team member are not
separate things.
They are one thing.
They're inextricably linked.
They are an ecosystem, they areinterdependent, they are
connected.
And I'll come up with some otherways of saying it.
I'll use my chat, vpt, and getsome more things.
(45:08):
They're one thing.
You don't have one without theother.
The cause and effect is unclear.
There's no way to figure it out.
There's no PDCA.
There's no root cause, there'sno five why?
Because it's one thing and itneeds to be managed like one
thing.
So when you think about howyou're bringing people in and
(45:31):
you're thinking about whatyou're saying right out of the
gate, what is it that you'retelling people?
Think about that, makeobservations inside your
organizations.
What are you really tellingpeople with that policy, with
that rule?
At the end of the day.
Tom Goldsby (45:50):
Well, fantastic, great question.
Thanks for that response andwe've got another fat on the
back you get a gold star, buddyDiane.
This question is directed toyou about.
We talked about themulti-generational workforce and
how the unique challenges,seemingly, that the new
generations present, and thisquestion's about those
differences that you'veencountered and tapping into
(46:13):
intrinsic motivators and workengagement that are seemingly
different Again, gen X.
You know money drove us allright.
Ted Stank (46:20):
As a boomer, I could see like I don't want to tell
you anything about what's goingon in my lifetime.
I just want to come to work.
Leave me alone, right.
Diane Lowman (46:27):
Right.
Thinking about the youngergenerations that are coming into
the workforce, this particularplatform is great for them
because they love to be oncomputers.
They love to be on their phones.
Think about the times that youhave tried to interact but
there's no reaction.
(46:48):
The first step is they're goingto enter comments in the system
.
That supervisor manager willread them.
That opens the door for us nowto have dialogue.
Tom Goldsby (47:00):
You know, the tool, I guess, is easy enough for
those of us that are not digitalnatives per se, but yet it's a
medium that your youngerworkforce is quite comfortable,
and then you're bringing maybealong the older workforce as
well.
Diane Lowman (47:15):
It takes a little more.
I'm a pencil and paper person.
I hate computers, I hate phones, I hate the whole thing.
But this particular platformappeals to me because it's
asking me questions, I can giveit feedback.
It's not complicated, so Ithink it appeals to all
generations.
Tom Goldsby (47:34):
Another audience question.
And you know, as we sit hereand listen and, by the way,
sunland Logistics just a great,great company and probably over
the course of this hour you'vegotten a sense of their values
as an organization, Truly acaring company.
I've had the opportunity tospend some time in Greenville,
client engagements and it's likea family environment, certainly
(47:58):
within the company but alsowith your customers.
I mean, it's just really tight.
And this question comes from,maybe, a place where maybe those
values aren't so firm or inplace on balancing the needs of
our people with the needs of thebusiness.
And maybe Arch you can speak tothat a little bit about.
You know, you said that youwent through the effort to try
(48:19):
to quantify the nature of thisproblem and say, hey, it's just
good business to invest in ourpeople, but for those folks
maybe haven't done that calculus.
Arch Thomason (48:29):
Yeah, I think I've tried to keep things very
simple and one of the thingsthat, from my perspective, in
order to be successful with anyrelationship or partner, it
needs to be win-win.
And that doesn't mean I wintwice right, win-win.
We both have to win, twiceright, win-win.
We both have to win.
And so I think to Robert'spoint we both need to win to
(48:50):
walk away and say it was a goodeffort, right?
So look, we have to make aprofit.
That is not negotiable, right?
We have bank covenants, we haveshareholders and we really
think this is.
You can't just leave this out.
We do not want to be low-costprovider or payer.
That's just not our strategy.
We want to provide the bestteam wins.
(49:12):
We think Very simple the bestteam wins.
And so how do we build out thatteam?
And why did the New EnglandPatriots win so many Super Bowls
?
They developed their people.
They paid them less than otherpeople too, but they built
something that people wanted togo and stay.
We're not going to pay less.
We have to be competitive.
The 3PL business is a toughbusiness.
(49:32):
Our margins are much less thanthe majority of shippers in this
room.
So we have competitive issuesthat we have to address and we
have those conversations.
Look, guys, we can't just goout and pay $5 more an hour.
It's not sustainable for us.
But how do we cut down thatturnover, improve the P&L and
then we reinvest in ourorganization.
(49:54):
It's important for us, for ourpeople and for our teams.
Look, you've got to manage it.
One doesn't work without theother.
So we think they're holistic innature.
Robert Martichenko (50:03):
That is a very, very profound question
because at the heart of it isdoing the right thing for people
is not great for the business.
Think about it.
That's the heart of thequestion.
How do you balance them?
So that would suggest that oneactually is one.
A positive here is a negativethere.
But if you think that we needto balance it and that's another
(50:25):
paradigm shift that justabsolutely has to change you go
into organizations and everyonehas the sign that people are our
greatest resource and all thisstuff.
And then you walk around andyou go oh, it doesn't really
look like they actually believethis.
And Ted said to me the otherday why aren't people walking
the talk?
And there's some very goodreasons for it.
(50:48):
Everybody says we got to do thebest thing for people, but then
our actions, our spousetheories and our theories in use
have a big gap.
Why?
And there's a couple of reasons, and I could be here for hours,
but there's two really, reallybig ones.
The first is at a leadershiplevel.
We still see employment as atransactional engagement.
(51:12):
I pay you, you show up.
Because I'm paying you, I getto have authority and control
and tell you what I want you todo.
You accept those terms becauseyou want to be paid.
And this is a deal.
It's a business transaction.
If you don't show up, I don'tpay you, and I never worried
(51:33):
about this not being the rightway to do it, because if you
don't show up, then I'm justgoing to get somebody else.
It didn't matter that it wastransactional.
So then you go okay, well, youknow, if we say it but we're not
doing it, why not?
And if your walk and talk havea gap, it's because it's not a
(51:55):
requirement.
Go into any healthy business andthere'll be things that they do
, no matter what, non-negotiable.
Why?
Because it's a requirement.
They have to do it.
It's not a preference.
A preference is we really likethe idea, we'll do it if we have
(52:16):
time, we'll do it if CEOs arepassionate about it, but it's
not actually a requirement.
So when things get crazy andthere's not enough hours in the
day, the preferences go away,the requirements stay in place
and we get those done.
Well, what's happening is thisidea of people being the most
important resource in theorganization, generally speaking
(52:38):
right now, is a preference.
It's not a requirement.
But here's the deal.
Read this paper because it isactually a requirement now.
Because the transactional CEOwho says just grind it out, pay
as little as you can pay, don'tworry about the environment.
There's three, four years ago,notwithstanding the pandemic,
(53:00):
they're still getting orders outthe door because they can churn
, because there's another person, there's another warm body to
replace the one that left.
But ah, now five jobs, fourpeople.
So if you, as a leadership team, if you still believe that this
is a transaction and you don'thave a responsibility to the
(53:20):
person, then it's not going tobe about still getting your
orders out the door because yougrinded it out.
It's going to be there.
Still getting your orders outthe door because you grinded it
out, it's going to be.
There's nobody in yourwarehouse working because
they're going to go someplacewhere they're being treated
properly.
So it will become a requirement, and as soon as something's a
requirement, then it gets done,and so this move from preference
(53:43):
to requirement is another shiftthat absolutely has to happen.
Ted Stank (53:47):
You know, robert, it strikes me as similar to the
customer revolution, right?
Every company, on their annualreport to shareholders, says
that customer is number one.
Yet how many, increasingly, howmany times do we call a
customer service number?
And you know, get on, how manyof you love calling your cable
TV provider, right, but customeris number one for them, right,
(54:11):
compared to calling a companyand you get somebody that picks
up the phone, it's like, oh myGod, and I think that's kind of
where you're going, right, howdo we make that intrinsic to who
we are?
Tom Goldsby (54:19):
But thank you very much for accelerating that
transition right, and it comesthrough careful study, right.
I mean we've got to treat itlike the problem that it is and
we've got to put the resourcesand time into it.
Hey, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Robert Diane Arch Fantastic.
Ted Stank (54:36):
A reminder also Robert mentioned it we're going
to have breakout sessions thisafternoon, that kind of drill
down deeper into several ofthese topics.
This will be one of thebreakout sessions.
Tom Goldsby (54:47):
That's it.
I feel like maybe, just maybe,we're transitioning to solution,
which is really exciting for us.
So, yeah, we've got thebreakout session a little bit
later and we probably ought toclose out the podcast.
Thank all our listeners outthere.
Ted Stank (54:57):
Yeah, we probably also have to do that.
Yeah, thanks everybody forlistening to the Tennessee on
Supply Chain Management podcast.
For those of you hereespecially, we will always
welcome questions or suggestionsfor speakers or topics.
Send your thoughts and input togsci at utkedu.
That's it All, right, thanksfor.
Tom Goldsby (55:15):
Rocky.
Ted Stank (55:16):
Tyler, thank you.
Introduction & Outro (55:19):
Thanks for tuning in to Tennessee on
Supply Chain Management.
If you enjoyed the episode,subscribe today on your favorite
listening platform to get allof our episodes as soon as they
drop, and don't forget to take amoment to leave us a rating.
Have any questions, thoughts orfeedback?
We'd love to hear from ourlisteners.
Email us at gsci at utkedu.
Join us next time as wecontinue pulling back the
(55:42):
curtain on the world of supplychain, educating and
entertaining you along the way.
Until then, listeners.
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