April 26, 2021 • 34 mins
Join us as we discuss one of history's most infamous serial killers: Mr. Herman Webster Mudgett aka HH Holmes. Part young man with an entrepreneurial spirit, part fraudster, swindler, and murderer, HH Holmes designed a hotel that would eventually be dubbed the Murder Castle based on the grizzly murders that took place in this macabre maze of death. Learn about how he made thousands of dollars from insurance fraud and other financial schemes, all while somehow managing to run a hotel and murder a bunch of people. Talk about multi-tasking.
Be sure to subscribe/rate/review and why not go ahead and satisfy your curiosity and check out our Patreon page at https://www.patreon.com/terriblepeopledoingterriblethings. We appreciate the continued support!
All music (Creepy Comedy and Monsters in Hotel) is adapted from Rafael Krux original works (https://filmmusic.io/artists/rafael-krux) and is licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 International (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/)
Be sure to subscribe/rate/review and why not go ahead and satisfy your curiosity and check out our Patreon page at https://www.patreon.com/terriblepeopledoingterriblethings. We appreciate the continued support!
All music (Creepy Comedy and Monsters in Hotel) is adapted from Rafael Krux original works (https://filmmusic.io/artists/rafael-krux) and is licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 International (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:15):
Welcome to terrible people doing terrible things. I'm Amanda, and I'm a licensed
psychologist who enjoys studying the worst ofhumanity. And I'm Laura, a true
crime and horror fan who enjoys researchingdark and twisted stories. And in the
realm of dark and twisted stories,I have today for you the story of
H. Cholmes, who I'm sureyou've heard of. Yes, mister murder
(00:39):
Castle. I think that's probably nota nickname, really, murder Castle was
a nickname for his hotel. Butso this one's gonna be kind of a
short one. There's not a tonof information about H. Cholmes. He's
kind of just a weird serial killeryoddity. Yes, interesting guy, right,
(01:03):
and he has inspired many many horrormovies, movies like Saw Hostile.
Oh yeah like that. Yeah.So Holme's birth name was Herman Webster Mudget,
which is a really funny name tome for some reason, I'm not
sure why Mudget Mudget, Herman WebsterMudget. I wish it'd have been like
(01:26):
Herman Webster Mudget the third. Ohyeah, it's just this family name they
keep passing down to these poor,unsuspecting people. Pretty much pretty much,
and he was born in eighteen sixtyone in New Hampshire. His family was
wealthy and from all signs he wasa very intelligent young man, even from
(01:46):
like an early age. Okay,he did have a fascination with medicine and
anatomy, which isn't a bad thing, but it is said that he began
to trap an experiment on small animals. Well, there you get, which
is a bad thing. Yeah,yeah, it's crossing a bit of a
like it's crossing a line. Iunderstand the curiosity, sure, especially if
(02:08):
your interest is anatomy, but likethat's what and I don't know if I'm
assuming they did this back in theday in some ways, but like that's
what biology and high school was for, where you dissect a dead toad or
a dead cat. True, butlike think about the doctor training that we've
talked about in the couple of pastonce, like mister mister Jay Mary and
(02:30):
Simms who went just for all oflike two years and never actually delivered a
baby like in practice. So I'mnot assuming that like you really have to
have that much training back then,training and I doubt they even give them,
like it seems like they don't eventell you like the proper anatomy of
a human. They're just like,I figure it out what you're practicing.
(02:51):
Yeah, here's here's a figure drawingand it's like a stick figure. This
is where the heart would be.It's like little arrows. This is way
to And there's a sensor bar overthe tits and the vagina for the female
ones. They didn't even have touchthat one. True, you don't like,
we don't like dealing with women's women'sgray spits' bits. So obviously these
(03:14):
are like really big red flags becauseI'm pretty sure, I mean, is
there actually like a set what amI trying to say? Um, like
you know the signs for somebody beingLucas killer or something? Yes? Yes,
and animals killing and torturing small animalstends to be on that list.
Yeah, okay, yeah, soI thought like killing animals, bedwetting,
(03:38):
fire starting, yes, all kindof like the big three. Right,
So obviously big red flag when you'retrapping and experimenting on little animals. Yes,
um, which my cousin used tokind of do that with crawdads,
like just crawdads. We'd be inmy grandmother's backyard at the creek out of
(03:59):
the creek, there's a creek behindthe cross. The grandmother that lived in
Cottonown, Tennessee, by the way, and my cousin, I'm not going
to name him, he would come, you know, we'd both be over
there. Um, we were reallyclose. We're like the same born in
the same year, so very close. But um, we would catch crawdads
out in the creek and I wouldjust catch them and be like, oh,
it's a it's a little thing,and then I'd freak out because it
(04:20):
was trying to pinch me and putit back. But he would catch them
and then he would cook them whilewe were playing house. And it used
to always upset me because he's burningthem alive up basically. So I think
it's really hard. Yeah, whatamount of that is? Actually, like
(04:41):
I'm trying at what amount of itis? I'm a child, and I
don't really know the difference exactly well, And I know more boys that have
done that kind of thing than girls, because also more socially acceptable to not
be maybe in tune with those nurturing, compassionate feelings as a boy. Um,
not that that's across the board,but toxic man Skuli I know,
(05:04):
I hate it pops up all thetime. Yeah, yeah, no,
that's definitely. And I grew upwith boys and just definitely some like you
know, instances of killing frogs andyes what things like that. They're easy
to catch, they're everywhere, they'recute. Reptiles and insects don't really actually
(05:26):
like feel like animals to most people. I think people have less compassion for
reptiles and insects and like fish thanthey do like creatures animals. Yeah,
which, I mean, you know, fine, okay, whatever, I'm
not here, Judge. You know, I eat meat. Yeah, I
am here. I judge now,and I eat meat too. I eat
(05:48):
Judge, Amanda, Yeah, Judge, Judge, Injury Judge and Jerry our
podcast. Damn it pretty much.Well, this is like one of those
moments, um and I've seen I'veseen this, like little sound clip on
TikTok a lot of the fuck youmy child is fine. It's just where
(06:10):
it's like, hey, something mightbe wrong with your kids, and it's
like, no, fuck you,my child is fine, but you know
it turns out to be you know, Ted Bundy or whatever not fine.
Well, it's like that book weneed to talk about Kevin. That was
made into a movie too. Yeah. I think Jason told me about that
movie. It was like Bilda Swintonand then that's all I know, she
(06:32):
plays them all. But yeah,yeah, I started to read the book
and then I couldn't finish it forsome reason who knows. But who knows.
It's easy for me to digest moviesbecause I'm a simpleton, So I
only like reading books about like fiction. I don't want to know about real
shit. Yeah. Yeah, butyou know, so they just let him
(06:53):
keep carrying on his little you know, animal experimentation. And they were rich,
so you know, it's eighteen hundreds, nobody cared. Yeah, So
naturally he went to medical school becauseyou know, he could afford it and
it allows you to cut up peoplelegally. Yeah, so what more fun
than that. Unfortunately for him,he was a mediocre student and was almost
(07:15):
kept from graduating under accusations from awoman that he had falsely promised to marry
her. And I was like,that's what he almost got kicked out of
fucking medical school. No, becauseI'm about to tell you about some more
ship. Yeah. So not onlylike was he a shit student, but
while he was in medical school,he was also prone to stealing corpses,
(07:39):
because you know, why not,and this was a known thing. It
wasn't like, oh, we foundthis out later, Nope, this was
known well. He was in medicalschool, and not only would he steal
the corpses, but he would alsoreportedly disfigure them and pose them to look
like they were killed in accidents,and then he would collect the insurance money
(08:00):
on the individuals. Obviously records supervital. Yeah, okay. At first,
I was like, he's living outsome fantasy where he's like making them just
look like accidents so he can likelive out this like death experience. But
he just wants the fucking money.Money. It is all about the money.
Fraud, straight up fraud. Well, and he also likes anatomy and
cutting people up, so I'm surejoying it, you know what I mean.
(08:24):
He's not like, oh, Ihate pills. This would be one
of those moments where your career interestsand your hobbies intersect and it's just a
beautiful thing. Do what you loveand you'll never work a day in your
life. He's like, okay,I will, I'll commit fraud and put
up people. It's my dream andit is it is his dream. Yeah,
(08:48):
and he's pretty good at it.So he passed his medical exams in
eighteen eighty four and he moved toChicago in eighteen eighty five, where he
started working as a pharmacist. Sodid he study pharmacy, No, okay,
I didn't think. I feel likeyou could just be a pharmacist back.
You couldn't, especially if you're adoctor. Well especially it feels like,
(09:11):
especially if you had a penis onlyif you had a penis, only
if you had you can only doa lot of things if you had to
be I guess women could be nursesin the sense of like wartime, but
yeah, I don't know. Wow, we could be the nurses. We
even assistance. It's like, oh, thank you now, It's like nurses
are like the fucking shit, thankyou very much, Jesus Christ. I
(09:33):
could not be a nurse, like, I don't have the fort I think
nurses have always been the ship thoughthey have if we just haven't given them
credit because it became a female dominatedcareer, much like teaching. Yep,
teachers deserve to be paid more thanso do nurses. So he started working
as a pharmacist and he changed hisname. And this is where we get
(09:54):
to the H. H. Holmesbecause, as you would have noticed his
name, that was not his fuckingname. Yeah. Now, the Herman
Webster Mudget changed his name to HenryHoward Holmes. My name's Herman Webster Mudget.
Now that couldn't things. Mudget justsounds like a curmudgeon. Yes,
well there, Midget too. Youknow my first thoughts, midget. If
(10:16):
we're doing word association, well yoursis better. Yeah, but like,
when was the last time curmudgeon wasused as a Oh I use curmudgein,
do you? I don't feel sobad. I don't remembering a curmudgeon.
So he changed his name Henry HowardHolmes. And uh. He eventually took
(10:37):
over the pharmacy from the previous owner'swife after her husband died. I was
gonna say someone's dead kill No,no, no, husband died natural causes.
However, this lady was never seenagain. Oh, it would be
safe to assume that she was murdered. Okay. So, and when he
took over the pharmacy. I don'tknow how he did that, but I
(11:01):
imagine it was not with pleasant tries. So or he wooed her. Oh
and he said that she moved toCalifornia, but it could could never be
verified. So man, like allthey do is send people out west,
Like if you're in the East Coastor something, you're just like they went
out there. Yeah, they're gone. Well back in those days, you
didn't have any way to continue,like, oh, yeah, they went
(11:22):
to another step, Like I'm goingto get on the train and I'll be
there in a year. I'm sureit didn't take quite that long, but
I have no fucking clay months.Yeah, ups took a long time.
It's like the US Postal Service rightnow. Shit takes a long time.
Yeah, no, kidding, verylong time. Yeah. So, soon
(11:43):
after he killed this lady and tookover the pharmacy, he purchased an empty
lot that was across the street fromthe pharmacy, and this is where he
would build his castle. It wasa three story hotel and neighbors actually called
it a castle or the castle.So did it look like a castle really
though, or just a hotel?No, It's just a tall building,
(12:05):
well tall to them. I guessthree stories was a lot then maybe I
don't know. Yeah, they werefucking impressed with it. I guess they
called it a castle. Yeah.Oh yeah, yeah, I'm not going
to call a shack of castle unlessI'm being a dick. I guess,
cut our castle, peasant, cutyour little castle. You're channing so so
(12:26):
far, like nothing too crazy.He may have killed a lady, definitely,
like played with bodies and did someinsurance fraud. Yeah you know,
but he only killed one person.Yeah, well it turns out no,
um, he wasn't gonna just stopthere. Yeah, you don't have a
place that becomes known as the murdercastle for killing one person. No,
(12:48):
you don't the accidentally fell down thesteps castle that one time I tripped.
This is a trip castle. Imay have pushed her all of the Klutzes,
the family. Well, during thejust the construction of the hotel,
he actually like hired and fired multiplecontractors so that no one really knew what
(13:11):
was being built or how details ofit. Okay, so that's how he
got away in a part. Yeah, but this is kind of odd to
me because you think that you wouldnotice if you were building like weird rooms
and hidden things in a hotel,like while you were building it. Yeah,
you're like the blueprints. Somebody hadto have noticed that the blueprints looked
(13:33):
a little weird unless he only gaveeach person part of the blueprints. I
don't like. I don't know,you know, if he's bringing people on
its sequence. But I'm gonna tellyou in a bit what exactly this hotel
that consisted of Okay, you couldtell me if you fit. Contractors would
have not noticed. Maybe they weren'treal contractors. The people off the streets,
(13:56):
I don't know, could have beenyou don't know, like the shady
ship that was going on back then. Plus he had a lot of us,
like a lot of money. So'storture closet? Is that? Okay?
Is that spelled right? Whatever?No, it's teacher teacher closet.
Teach your closet. We put theteachers here. So the construction lasted from
(14:18):
eighteen eighty nine to nineteen ninety one, lasted one hundred eighteen. That's a
bad castle. That's the Winchester Hoteleighteen eighty nine to eighteen ninety one.
After its completion, Holmes started marketingfor his hotel. So he put ads
out in the paper looking for jobsfor young women. Which if you said
(14:43):
that today, I'm pretty sure noone would respond. It's like he would
like put out ads like looking foryoung women, like okay, no,
there's a back page for that,sir. Yeah, it's called the darknet
that yeah. Yeah. He alsostarted advertising his hotel as a place of
lodging, obviously because he built itto be a hotel. Yeah. Not
(15:05):
unlike many of the worst people thatwe talk about. He started placing ads
in the paper as well that hewas a wealthy man and he was looking
for a wife. I guess thisis just the past equivalent of tender and
like match dot com, yes something, Yeah, the classified I mean it
was a thing we've all worked onlinedating in the sense of like, yeah,
(15:28):
you're meeting people you don't know.Yeah, yeah, I mean it's
kind of the same. In fact, now, if anyone ever says to
me, like dating is dangerous,like, we'll try post it in the
classified ads. Yeah something, rollup to your house and then they're gonna
look at you, like, what'sshe talking about? How we did it?
Before there were phonedzaper there's still printarticles now. Back in my day,
(15:52):
I had to walk twenty miles toget some dick. I had to
use a turkey baster if I wantedto clean up after works. I don't
know. I think that would havethe opposite effect. I don't know.
I don't think that's when you woulduse it. I think that's the I
think when you're now, I hadto use a turkey baster, turkey baster
(16:18):
my turkey if I wanted any kindof sexual intimacy to base my turkey.
If you can my giblets, it'soh no, I gotta keep my giblets
moist. Everyone's favorite word, yeah, giblets, best word, giblets.
(16:42):
So you know he's getting he's gettingresponses to these ads. You've got a
lot of people coming in coming forjobs, fiances, wives, you know
whatever. Yeah, And as anygood bachelor slash businessman does he require all
of his employees slash wives, slashfiances and hotel guests to have life insurance
(17:06):
policies ah, life insurance. Also, he paid the premiums as long as
they made him the beneficiary. Sonow, what's the first thing that goes
through your head if you check intoa hotel and they're like, okay,
now do you have life insurance?And you're like no, and they're like,
(17:26):
okay, I'm gonna need you totake out a quick policy to check
him, and I need to bethe beneficiary. My first thought is I'm
gonna die here. I'm gonna diehere, so I'd better leave. What
Well, I just the beneficiary partthrows me off, Like I guess if
these people didn't have any other family, maybe, how are you going to
(17:47):
ask somebody who's checking isn't a hotelguest who's gonna stay with you for like
a little while to take out alife insurance policy? Is that? Like,
how are you explaining that, like, oh, if you die on
my property, like if you'd hurtyourself. I wonder if he's almost just
doing it in a way where he'slike, I can't believe you haven't done
(18:07):
this. This is such a greatidea. You never know what's gonna happen.
I don't know, Like he's like, can I be the beneficiary?
Man? Well, he might bepromising them that he's going to take care
of their finances and make sure theright people get it. Like, I
don't know if he's just engendering thatmuch trust and or these people are easily
swindled. I also sell life insuranceon the side. Yeah, no,
(18:30):
seriously, Well they do it.Lots of people do it, they sign
him up for the beneficiary and abunch of life insurance policies, and not
surprisingly, a lot of these peopledisappeared, so as they tend to do,
after establishing a shady life insurance handshakedeal with a man with a hotel
(18:52):
bolo hat, bowler boiler hat,bowlers tie, bowler hat, and a
thick mustache. Yeah, basically,yeah, that is exactly what he looks
like. Yeah, but you knowwhat happens when you run a hotel where
people see people enter but they don'tsee them leave. You write a song
(19:17):
called Hotel California. Is that song? Yes? Yeah, always, I
always think of that fucking Eagle song, which I like, but like go
check in, never check can it'sthe hotel, it's the murder hotel homes.
I can't come up with a goodlike jingle. Yeah, it's pretty
hard to do incorporate that. Solet people started budget. So people started
(19:44):
noticing, um that they never sawwomen leave the hell hotel. But apparently
nobody thought it was that big ofa deal because he continue to operate for
years. Well, and nobody fuckingcares about women. Never have never,
Yeah, no, not back then, back then. This is why anytime
somebody's like, I hate when peopleask me the question, oh, if
(20:07):
you could time travel anywhere, wherewould you time travel to? Well,
I can't go in the past.Nobody who's not a white man can go
and fucking back in time, Like, Oh, yeah, I'm a woman
and I want to travel back sometime. No. No, there's no point
in history that I would like wantto go back to as a woman and
be like unless I could be likeI don't know, maybe be like Cleopatra
(20:30):
or I know, like you'd haveto be in a very specific you have
to go where they were, likelike female rulers, which is a ton
of places. Yeah, and you'dhave to go like way back, so
Queen Elizabeth, Catherine the Great.But still it's like I don't think they
as Yeah, it awful lives.They had men telling them what to do
all the time, pressure to bemarried, why aren't you having babies?
(20:55):
Well, and everything smelled bad,Like that's the part I can't get get
over. If nothing else, there'sno plumbing anybody in this day and age
who's like, oh, I wouldlike to travel back to the eighteen hundred,
would you? Because they threw shipout windows, it might be so
nice to have like time travel andgo back to where you just had this
bench with holes in it and there'dbe like ten people shitting at the same
(21:18):
time. That's how it was,do you speak of? And then the
baths, the Roman baths, whichI know in Japan they're the springs and
everything. Sure there are something likeprobably not just Japans, but like,
yeah, I don't want the shipbench and they know they like threw shit
(21:40):
out windows and stuff. And bythe way, oh yeah, if you
think like, oh, Corona isbad, like yeah it is. Don't
get me wrong. We're in aterrible pandemic. We want to deal with
the black plague. You want boilsbecause I don't want I don't want polio,
and you didn't have medicine. Idon't want to be back there having
asthma with no treatment and a doctortelling me to smoke cigarettes to cure it,
(22:03):
and with hay everywhere, just horses, horses. Hey, shit,
I'd die. Yeah, It's likeI'd pop out of the time and she
need to be like one gasping,wheezing breath and then you die dead or
like I knew this was a baddecision. What do they say and like
in space things when they like stepoutside and they're like testing whether the atmosphere
(22:29):
is like the atmosphere here is deadly, let's die. Yeah. So um
so nobody cared. Nobody cared thatthis hotel like brought in people but never
never spit out people. So eighteenninety three rolls around and Chicago gets to
host the World's Fair, which iswas a massive fair to celebrate the US.
(22:55):
It's not still, is it.I don't know. I don't think
it is. I feel like wewould hear about it if it was.
Yeah, you're probably right, butit was a big deal for a long
time. But here's here's the reasonwhy I think it's not a thing anymore
is because do you know, butit is actually to celebrate Christopher Columbus discovering
America. Yeah, so that's whyI don't think we celebrated anymore or posted
(23:22):
anymore, because I don't think anyother countries fucking give a fuck about what.
We're not going to celebrate a whiteguy getting lost and then slaughtering people
claiming territory. You didn't discover Americapeople were already Yeah, yeah, you
don't get to claim that. Andhe didn't even land here the first time.
He didn't even know he didn't evenknow where the fuck he was.
But anyway, the World's Fair isto celebrate Columbus discovering quote unquote America.
(23:48):
And it was huge. We're talkingmillions and millions of people in this day
and age, like in the eighteenhundreds. Oh wow, you know it
was. It was a massive todo, and they cat in their training
year early to get there. Yeah. Well, and the fair would run
from May to October, so itran for a very long time. And
so so Chicago would be hosting thisfor months and naturally tourist attraction, tons
(24:12):
of people, and when you're runninga hotel that sounds like a great cash
cow and bonus, there will alsobe lots of women around to convince to
stay at his hotel or bury himeither way. So most visitors who checked
in during that period of time we'renever seen again. But there's very limited
(24:36):
information on any victims. And we'llget into why there is very limited information.
So let's talk about what the actualhotel was like. So we're talking
a three story hotel. The firstfloor had a hundred rooms on it,
so large, large hotel and Holmes'soffice was also down there. Okay,
then there were the two other floors, and there was also a basement.
(24:57):
Pretty typical standard layout. What wasn'tstandard was that many of the guest rooms
had gas lines that were run tothem, and they were also made to
be soundproof. Nice. This way, homes could asphyxiate his victims anytime he
wanted to just turn, just turnon a different line to a room,
button, soundproof, locked in.Myrtle's gonna get the gas today, it
(25:22):
would be there's no button. Yeah, it's like a crank. God,
damn it, Myrtle. You're abig woman. It's gonna take a lot
of gas, a lot of cranks. Yeah. Also, in addition to
this, there were peep holes allover the place, trapdoors, stairways that
went nowhere, and a shoot thatled to the basement. Body shoot.
(25:45):
So I don't believe that not asingle contractor, I just don't think they
cared noticed that this was fishy asshit. Yeah, fairways that go to
nowhere, a shoot, they couldgo to the basement just for trash or
paundry exactly, sure. But alsothat like crap doors yea, and people
yeah, and gas lines and gasand soundproofing. Like he could probably explain
(26:10):
away the soundproofing. Sure, it'sa hotel, you want it to be
soundproof. It's a private yeah yeah, sure, but I wouldn't mind if
hotel rooms were soundproof. I'd lovethat. Well, but here's the other
piece of this, Like it's suspiciousto us, yes, because we know
all this shit has happened, andwe know bad things happen, and back
then this didn't happen. Well,I mean, is not exactly, but
(26:34):
they may not put it all together. It's fair. I mean, nobody
has been that like depraved and richbefore that. They've just like built a
murder batch to create a fucking murdercastle. Yeah. Yeah, So the
basement was its own little nightmare becauseit was Holmes's like personal lab. Okay,
(26:56):
it had a dissecting table, astretching and a crematory. Huh.
And I don't know why you wouldneed a crematory in the basement of a
hotel yet again, another one ofthose contracting things. He's got to burn
his trash too, Laura, Okay, fair, that might Actually, I
don't know, I don't know.It's a thing here in the twenty first
(27:18):
century. If you live in yeah, rural Georgia. So Holmes would kill
these people in the rooms, gasthem, drop him out of a basement,
and then he would dissect and skinhis victims bodies so he could sell
their skeletons to medical schools. Yep. Again, no one is wondering how
(27:40):
this dude has so many human skeletons. Yeah, yeah, just to donate
to fucking medicine. Great. Wasthis back in the time of Burke and
Hair too. I don't remember theirBurke and Hair when they were grave robbing
and then killing people for skeletons andstuff. I'm just curious, like,
I think that was earlier. Yeah, I think that was. It seems
(28:02):
like the medical community didn't ask enoughquestions well, and I think their checks
and balances were a little off.Well. Not only that, but the
medical community didn't want to ask questionsbecause it was illegal to dissect or experiment
on any bodies, So they hadno way of like learning anything unless people
just and the only bodies that theyever had to experiment on illegally were like
(28:26):
criminals who were sentenced for execution formurder, which didn't happen a ton.
Yeah, and they didn't have enoughbodies. So like when people were like
some bodies for you, They're like, fuck, yeah, we need to
study studied. So stop making shitillegal and making it difficult for scientists to
look at stuff. Yes, yes, and maybe we wouldn't have an underground
(28:48):
body trade eighteen hundreds. During thiswhole time, he also traveled around and
committed insurance scams with an accomplice,Benjamin Pitzel. I'm just gonna call him
Pittzel because I don't know if it'show he pronounced Pitzel. So, after
the World's Fair ended, Chicago's economywent to total shit, as things usually
do when a big event is hosted, such as the Olympics in an area.
(29:15):
Oh god, the Olympics. Yeah, so economy went to shit,
and Holmes started focusing more on theinsurance scams and other cons then just kind
of left the hotel to just kindof sit there. Okay, Yeah,
he stole horses from Texas and hesold them, making a bunch of money.
But he was caught for this andarrested. Okay, so okay,
(29:37):
he went to jail. While hewas in jail, he made a friend,
Morgan Hedgepeth. Holmes convinced him thatif he would get him a lawyer,
he would pay him five hundred dollars. And he needed a lawyer because
he was going to fake his owndeath and collect ten thousand dollars in life
insurance money. Okay, okay,So home was going to fake his death,
(30:00):
fake his death, collect the moneyjail, okay. So once Holmes
was out of jail, he attemptedto take the ten thousand dollars life insurance
policy off on himself and then fakehis death. But the insurance company wasn't
buying it and they just didn't payhim. They were like, no,
okay, which is the thing theycould do back then, because what they
can, who's gonna come after him? Yeah, exactly. So this didn't
(30:25):
work, so he tried the samescheme again with his buddy Pitzel. This
time they would fake Pitzel's death,at least that's what Pizel thought, and
then they would collect the life instrumentinsurance money from Pitzelay, But Holmes just
straight up murdered Pitzel and then collectedthe life insurance money for himself. No
honor among thieves, No, No, there's not. Yeah. So Holmes
(30:51):
got the money from the life insurancepolicy. Come eighteen ninety four, Holmes's
greed kind of got the better ofhim. Okay, and Morgan, the
guy that he had talked to injail who was supposed to get him a
lawyer and get his five hundred dollars, never received any money because the insurance
thing didn't go anywhere. Okay.Yeah, and he was pissed. So
(31:12):
he went to the police and toldthem what Holmes had attempted. Okay,
So he turned him in for somethinghe wasn't He hadn't even successfully done,
correct, He turned him in fortalking to him and scheming and like attempted
planning this. Okay. So Holmeswas arrested in Boston and looked as if
(31:33):
he was trying to flee the country. That makes sense. Yeah, the
police were suspicious, so all ofthe police got involved from all of the
places he had been loving. Sothe Chicago police went to investigate the hotel
he owned. Oh yeah. Thereat the hotel they found all of Holmes's
(31:55):
murder traps and a ton of bodies. Oh wow, like a lot,
like a lot of bodies. Mostwere so badly decomposed and dismembered that they
were unidentifiable. And they were actuallyso mangled and stuff that they could not
even be accurately counted. So theyhave no idea how many bodies were present.
(32:16):
Yeah, because he had left themsitting there. Yeah, it's almost
like if a bomb went off,you just got flesh and pieces everywhere.
Yeah, there's you know, it'sa lot. We know it's a lot,
and they don't know, they can'tdon't know how much exactly, so
they couldn't determine exactly how many.So all in all of Holmes confessed to
(32:37):
twenty eight murders, not counting Pitzeland his children, who Holmes had apparently
murdered and dispatched stuff at some pointin time. Yeah, through the investigation,
like, it was determined that Holmeshad likely killed close to two hundred
people in total. No, wow, yep, damn. And how like
how long did he have this murdercastle. It doesn't seem like it was
(32:59):
so for long. It finished buildingin eighteen ninety one, and he was
arrested in eighteen ninety five and hangedin eighteen ninety six, So four years,
four or five years, which hecould have been Like, it sounds
like he was active a little bitbefore that. But the main bulk of
(33:20):
it would have been that like itwas, but he didn't kill anybody.
It seems like he didn't kill anybodyuntil the pharmacy. Yes, okay,
that's when he killed somebody, andthen he started just killing was his business.
Yeah. So he was hung ineighteen ninety six and the hotel was
remodeled and was due to be atourist attraction called the Holmes Horror Castle.
I've heard of that, yes,okay, okay, but it burned down
(33:44):
right before it was supposed to happen. So and yeah, that's it.
So thank you guys so much forjoining us. If you have any feedback,
you can leave a review or sendus a message on social media or
at our website, which simply TerriblePeople Doing Terrible Things dot WordPress dot com.
And remember, terrible people are everywhereand you might just be one of
(34:07):
them. Mann don't, don't,don't, don't do don't
Welcome to terrible people doing terrible things. I'm Amanda, and I'm a licensed
psychologist who enjoys studying the worst ofhumanity. And I'm Laura, a true
crime and horror fan who enjoys researchingdark and twisted stories. And in the
realm of dark and twisted stories,I have today for you the story of
H. Cholmes, who I'm sureyou've heard of. Yes, mister murder
(00:39):
Castle. I think that's probably nota nickname, really, murder Castle was
a nickname for his hotel. Butso this one's gonna be kind of a
short one. There's not a tonof information about H. Cholmes. He's
kind of just a weird serial killeryoddity. Yes, interesting guy, right,
(01:03):
and he has inspired many many horrormovies, movies like Saw Hostile.
Oh yeah like that. Yeah.So Holme's birth name was Herman Webster Mudget,
which is a really funny name tome for some reason, I'm not
sure why Mudget Mudget, Herman WebsterMudget. I wish it'd have been like
(01:26):
Herman Webster Mudget the third. Ohyeah, it's just this family name they
keep passing down to these poor,unsuspecting people. Pretty much pretty much,
and he was born in eighteen sixtyone in New Hampshire. His family was
wealthy and from all signs he wasa very intelligent young man, even from
(01:46):
like an early age. Okay,he did have a fascination with medicine and
anatomy, which isn't a bad thing, but it is said that he began
to trap an experiment on small animals. Well, there you get, which
is a bad thing. Yeah,yeah, it's crossing a bit of a
like it's crossing a line. Iunderstand the curiosity, sure, especially if
(02:08):
your interest is anatomy, but likethat's what and I don't know if I'm
assuming they did this back in theday in some ways, but like that's
what biology and high school was for, where you dissect a dead toad or
a dead cat. True, butlike think about the doctor training that we've
talked about in the couple of pastonce, like mister mister Jay Mary and
(02:30):
Simms who went just for all oflike two years and never actually delivered a
baby like in practice. So I'mnot assuming that like you really have to
have that much training back then,training and I doubt they even give them,
like it seems like they don't eventell you like the proper anatomy of
a human. They're just like,I figure it out what you're practicing.
(02:51):
Yeah, here's here's a figure drawingand it's like a stick figure. This
is where the heart would be.It's like little arrows. This is way
to And there's a sensor bar overthe tits and the vagina for the female
ones. They didn't even have touchthat one. True, you don't like,
we don't like dealing with women's women'sgray spits' bits. So obviously these
(03:14):
are like really big red flags becauseI'm pretty sure, I mean, is
there actually like a set what amI trying to say? Um, like
you know the signs for somebody beingLucas killer or something? Yes? Yes,
and animals killing and torturing small animalstends to be on that list.
Yeah, okay, yeah, soI thought like killing animals, bedwetting,
(03:38):
fire starting, yes, all kindof like the big three. Right,
So obviously big red flag when you'retrapping and experimenting on little animals. Yes,
um, which my cousin used tokind of do that with crawdads,
like just crawdads. We'd be inmy grandmother's backyard at the creek out of
(03:59):
the creek, there's a creek behindthe cross. The grandmother that lived in
Cottonown, Tennessee, by the way, and my cousin, I'm not going
to name him, he would come, you know, we'd both be over
there. Um, we were reallyclose. We're like the same born in
the same year, so very close. But um, we would catch crawdads
out in the creek and I wouldjust catch them and be like, oh,
it's a it's a little thing,and then I'd freak out because it
(04:20):
was trying to pinch me and putit back. But he would catch them
and then he would cook them whilewe were playing house. And it used
to always upset me because he's burningthem alive up basically. So I think
it's really hard. Yeah, whatamount of that is? Actually, like
(04:41):
I'm trying at what amount of itis? I'm a child, and I
don't really know the difference exactly well, And I know more boys that have
done that kind of thing than girls, because also more socially acceptable to not
be maybe in tune with those nurturing, compassionate feelings as a boy. Um,
not that that's across the board,but toxic man Skuli I know,
(05:04):
I hate it pops up all thetime. Yeah, yeah, no,
that's definitely. And I grew upwith boys and just definitely some like you
know, instances of killing frogs andyes what things like that. They're easy
to catch, they're everywhere, they'recute. Reptiles and insects don't really actually
(05:26):
like feel like animals to most people. I think people have less compassion for
reptiles and insects and like fish thanthey do like creatures animals. Yeah,
which, I mean, you know, fine, okay, whatever, I'm
not here, Judge. You know, I eat meat. Yeah, I
am here. I judge now,and I eat meat too. I eat
(05:48):
Judge, Amanda, Yeah, Judge, Judge, Injury Judge and Jerry our
podcast. Damn it pretty much.Well, this is like one of those
moments, um and I've seen I'veseen this, like little sound clip on
TikTok a lot of the fuck youmy child is fine. It's just where
(06:10):
it's like, hey, something mightbe wrong with your kids, and it's
like, no, fuck you,my child is fine, but you know
it turns out to be you know, Ted Bundy or whatever not fine.
Well, it's like that book weneed to talk about Kevin. That was
made into a movie too. Yeah. I think Jason told me about that
movie. It was like Bilda Swintonand then that's all I know, she
(06:32):
plays them all. But yeah,yeah, I started to read the book
and then I couldn't finish it forsome reason who knows. But who knows.
It's easy for me to digest moviesbecause I'm a simpleton, So I
only like reading books about like fiction. I don't want to know about real
shit. Yeah. Yeah, butyou know, so they just let him
(06:53):
keep carrying on his little you know, animal experimentation. And they were rich,
so you know, it's eighteen hundreds, nobody cared. Yeah, So
naturally he went to medical school becauseyou know, he could afford it and
it allows you to cut up peoplelegally. Yeah, so what more fun
than that. Unfortunately for him,he was a mediocre student and was almost
(07:15):
kept from graduating under accusations from awoman that he had falsely promised to marry
her. And I was like,that's what he almost got kicked out of
fucking medical school. No, becauseI'm about to tell you about some more
ship. Yeah. So not onlylike was he a shit student, but
while he was in medical school,he was also prone to stealing corpses,
(07:39):
because you know, why not,and this was a known thing. It
wasn't like, oh, we foundthis out later, Nope, this was
known well. He was in medicalschool, and not only would he steal
the corpses, but he would alsoreportedly disfigure them and pose them to look
like they were killed in accidents,and then he would collect the insurance money
(08:00):
on the individuals. Obviously records supervital. Yeah, okay. At first,
I was like, he's living outsome fantasy where he's like making them just
look like accidents so he can likelive out this like death experience. But
he just wants the fucking money.Money. It is all about the money.
Fraud, straight up fraud. Well, and he also likes anatomy and
cutting people up, so I'm surejoying it, you know what I mean.
(08:24):
He's not like, oh, Ihate pills. This would be one
of those moments where your career interestsand your hobbies intersect and it's just a
beautiful thing. Do what you loveand you'll never work a day in your
life. He's like, okay,I will, I'll commit fraud and put
up people. It's my dream andit is it is his dream. Yeah,
(08:48):
and he's pretty good at it.So he passed his medical exams in
eighteen eighty four and he moved toChicago in eighteen eighty five, where he
started working as a pharmacist. Sodid he study pharmacy, No, okay,
I didn't think. I feel likeyou could just be a pharmacist back.
You couldn't, especially if you're adoctor. Well especially it feels like,
(09:11):
especially if you had a penis onlyif you had a penis, only
if you had you can only doa lot of things if you had to
be I guess women could be nursesin the sense of like wartime, but
yeah, I don't know. Wow, we could be the nurses. We
even assistance. It's like, oh, thank you now, It's like nurses
are like the fucking shit, thankyou very much, Jesus Christ. I
(09:33):
could not be a nurse, like, I don't have the fort I think
nurses have always been the ship thoughthey have if we just haven't given them
credit because it became a female dominatedcareer, much like teaching. Yep,
teachers deserve to be paid more thanso do nurses. So he started working
as a pharmacist and he changed hisname. And this is where we get
(09:54):
to the H. H. Holmesbecause, as you would have noticed his
name, that was not his fuckingname. Yeah. Now, the Herman
Webster Mudget changed his name to HenryHoward Holmes. My name's Herman Webster Mudget.
Now that couldn't things. Mudget justsounds like a curmudgeon. Yes,
well there, Midget too. Youknow my first thoughts, midget. If
(10:16):
we're doing word association, well yoursis better. Yeah, but like,
when was the last time curmudgeon wasused as a Oh I use curmudgein,
do you? I don't feel sobad. I don't remembering a curmudgeon.
So he changed his name Henry HowardHolmes. And uh. He eventually took
(10:37):
over the pharmacy from the previous owner'swife after her husband died. I was
gonna say someone's dead kill No,no, no, husband died natural causes.
However, this lady was never seenagain. Oh, it would be
safe to assume that she was murdered. Okay. So, and when he
took over the pharmacy. I don'tknow how he did that, but I
(11:01):
imagine it was not with pleasant tries. So or he wooed her. Oh
and he said that she moved toCalifornia, but it could could never be
verified. So man, like allthey do is send people out west,
Like if you're in the East Coastor something, you're just like they went
out there. Yeah, they're gone. Well back in those days, you
didn't have any way to continue,like, oh, yeah, they went
(11:22):
to another step, Like I'm goingto get on the train and I'll be
there in a year. I'm sureit didn't take quite that long, but
I have no fucking clay months.Yeah, ups took a long time.
It's like the US Postal Service rightnow. Shit takes a long time.
Yeah, no, kidding, verylong time. Yeah. So, soon
(11:43):
after he killed this lady and tookover the pharmacy, he purchased an empty
lot that was across the street fromthe pharmacy, and this is where he
would build his castle. It wasa three story hotel and neighbors actually called
it a castle or the castle.So did it look like a castle really
though, or just a hotel?No, It's just a tall building,
(12:05):
well tall to them. I guessthree stories was a lot then maybe I
don't know. Yeah, they werefucking impressed with it. I guess they
called it a castle. Yeah.Oh yeah, yeah, I'm not going
to call a shack of castle unlessI'm being a dick. I guess,
cut our castle, peasant, cutyour little castle. You're channing so so
(12:26):
far, like nothing too crazy.He may have killed a lady, definitely,
like played with bodies and did someinsurance fraud. Yeah you know,
but he only killed one person.Yeah, well it turns out no,
um, he wasn't gonna just stopthere. Yeah, you don't have a
place that becomes known as the murdercastle for killing one person. No,
(12:48):
you don't the accidentally fell down thesteps castle that one time I tripped.
This is a trip castle. Imay have pushed her all of the Klutzes,
the family. Well, during thejust the construction of the hotel,
he actually like hired and fired multiplecontractors so that no one really knew what
(13:11):
was being built or how details ofit. Okay, so that's how he
got away in a part. Yeah, but this is kind of odd to
me because you think that you wouldnotice if you were building like weird rooms
and hidden things in a hotel,like while you were building it. Yeah,
you're like the blueprints. Somebody hadto have noticed that the blueprints looked
(13:33):
a little weird unless he only gaveeach person part of the blueprints. I
don't like. I don't know,you know, if he's bringing people on
its sequence. But I'm gonna tellyou in a bit what exactly this hotel
that consisted of Okay, you couldtell me if you fit. Contractors would
have not noticed. Maybe they weren'treal contractors. The people off the streets,
(13:56):
I don't know, could have beenyou don't know, like the shady
ship that was going on back then. Plus he had a lot of us,
like a lot of money. So'storture closet? Is that? Okay?
Is that spelled right? Whatever?No, it's teacher teacher closet.
Teach your closet. We put theteachers here. So the construction lasted from
(14:18):
eighteen eighty nine to nineteen ninety one, lasted one hundred eighteen. That's a
bad castle. That's the Winchester Hoteleighteen eighty nine to eighteen ninety one.
After its completion, Holmes started marketingfor his hotel. So he put ads
out in the paper looking for jobsfor young women. Which if you said
(14:43):
that today, I'm pretty sure noone would respond. It's like he would
like put out ads like looking foryoung women, like okay, no,
there's a back page for that,sir. Yeah, it's called the darknet
that yeah. Yeah. He alsostarted advertising his hotel as a place of
lodging, obviously because he built itto be a hotel. Yeah. Not
(15:05):
unlike many of the worst people thatwe talk about. He started placing ads
in the paper as well that hewas a wealthy man and he was looking
for a wife. I guess thisis just the past equivalent of tender and
like match dot com, yes something, Yeah, the classified I mean it
was a thing we've all worked onlinedating in the sense of like, yeah,
(15:28):
you're meeting people you don't know.Yeah, yeah, I mean it's
kind of the same. In fact, now, if anyone ever says to
me, like dating is dangerous,like, we'll try post it in the
classified ads. Yeah something, rollup to your house and then they're gonna
look at you, like, what'sshe talking about? How we did it?
Before there were phonedzaper there's still printarticles now. Back in my day,
(15:52):
I had to walk twenty miles toget some dick. I had to
use a turkey baster if I wantedto clean up after works. I don't
know. I think that would havethe opposite effect. I don't know.
I don't think that's when you woulduse it. I think that's the I
think when you're now, I hadto use a turkey baster, turkey baster
(16:18):
my turkey if I wanted any kindof sexual intimacy to base my turkey.
If you can my giblets, it'soh no, I gotta keep my giblets
moist. Everyone's favorite word, yeah, giblets, best word, giblets.
(16:42):
So you know he's getting he's gettingresponses to these ads. You've got a
lot of people coming in coming forjobs, fiances, wives, you know
whatever. Yeah, And as anygood bachelor slash businessman does he require all
of his employees slash wives, slashfiances and hotel guests to have life insurance
(17:06):
policies ah, life insurance. Also, he paid the premiums as long as
they made him the beneficiary. Sonow, what's the first thing that goes
through your head if you check intoa hotel and they're like, okay,
now do you have life insurance?And you're like no, and they're like,
(17:26):
okay, I'm gonna need you totake out a quick policy to check
him, and I need to bethe beneficiary. My first thought is I'm
gonna die here. I'm gonna diehere, so I'd better leave. What
Well, I just the beneficiary partthrows me off, Like I guess if
these people didn't have any other family, maybe, how are you going to
(17:47):
ask somebody who's checking isn't a hotelguest who's gonna stay with you for like
a little while to take out alife insurance policy? Is that? Like,
how are you explaining that, like, oh, if you die on
my property, like if you'd hurtyourself. I wonder if he's almost just
doing it in a way where he'slike, I can't believe you haven't done
(18:07):
this. This is such a greatidea. You never know what's gonna happen.
I don't know, Like he's like, can I be the beneficiary?
Man? Well, he might bepromising them that he's going to take care
of their finances and make sure theright people get it. Like, I
don't know if he's just engendering thatmuch trust and or these people are easily
swindled. I also sell life insuranceon the side. Yeah, no,
(18:30):
seriously, Well they do it.Lots of people do it, they sign
him up for the beneficiary and abunch of life insurance policies, and not
surprisingly, a lot of these peopledisappeared, so as they tend to do,
after establishing a shady life insurance handshakedeal with a man with a hotel
(18:52):
bolo hat, bowler boiler hat,bowlers tie, bowler hat, and a
thick mustache. Yeah, basically,yeah, that is exactly what he looks
like. Yeah, but you knowwhat happens when you run a hotel where
people see people enter but they don'tsee them leave. You write a song
(19:17):
called Hotel California. Is that song? Yes? Yeah, always, I
always think of that fucking Eagle song, which I like, but like go
check in, never check can it'sthe hotel, it's the murder hotel homes.
I can't come up with a goodlike jingle. Yeah, it's pretty
hard to do incorporate that. Solet people started budget. So people started
(19:44):
noticing, um that they never sawwomen leave the hell hotel. But apparently
nobody thought it was that big ofa deal because he continue to operate for
years. Well, and nobody fuckingcares about women. Never have never,
Yeah, no, not back then, back then. This is why anytime
somebody's like, I hate when peopleask me the question, oh, if
(20:07):
you could time travel anywhere, wherewould you time travel to? Well,
I can't go in the past.Nobody who's not a white man can go
and fucking back in time, Like, Oh, yeah, I'm a woman
and I want to travel back sometime. No. No, there's no point
in history that I would like wantto go back to as a woman and
be like unless I could be likeI don't know, maybe be like Cleopatra
(20:30):
or I know, like you'd haveto be in a very specific you have
to go where they were, likelike female rulers, which is a ton
of places. Yeah, and you'dhave to go like way back, so
Queen Elizabeth, Catherine the Great.But still it's like I don't think they
as Yeah, it awful lives.They had men telling them what to do
all the time, pressure to bemarried, why aren't you having babies?
(20:55):
Well, and everything smelled bad,Like that's the part I can't get get
over. If nothing else, there'sno plumbing anybody in this day and age
who's like, oh, I wouldlike to travel back to the eighteen hundred,
would you? Because they threw shipout windows, it might be so
nice to have like time travel andgo back to where you just had this
bench with holes in it and there'dbe like ten people shitting at the same
(21:18):
time. That's how it was,do you speak of? And then the
baths, the Roman baths, whichI know in Japan they're the springs and
everything. Sure there are something likeprobably not just Japans, but like,
yeah, I don't want the shipbench and they know they like threw shit
(21:40):
out windows and stuff. And bythe way, oh yeah, if you
think like, oh, Corona isbad, like yeah it is. Don't
get me wrong. We're in aterrible pandemic. We want to deal with
the black plague. You want boilsbecause I don't want I don't want polio,
and you didn't have medicine. Idon't want to be back there having
asthma with no treatment and a doctortelling me to smoke cigarettes to cure it,
(22:03):
and with hay everywhere, just horses, horses. Hey, shit,
I'd die. Yeah, It's likeI'd pop out of the time and she
need to be like one gasping,wheezing breath and then you die dead or
like I knew this was a baddecision. What do they say and like
in space things when they like stepoutside and they're like testing whether the atmosphere
(22:29):
is like the atmosphere here is deadly, let's die. Yeah. So um
so nobody cared. Nobody cared thatthis hotel like brought in people but never
never spit out people. So eighteenninety three rolls around and Chicago gets to
host the World's Fair, which iswas a massive fair to celebrate the US.
(22:55):
It's not still, is it.I don't know. I don't think
it is. I feel like wewould hear about it if it was.
Yeah, you're probably right, butit was a big deal for a long
time. But here's here's the reasonwhy I think it's not a thing anymore
is because do you know, butit is actually to celebrate Christopher Columbus discovering
America. Yeah, so that's whyI don't think we celebrated anymore or posted
(23:22):
anymore, because I don't think anyother countries fucking give a fuck about what.
We're not going to celebrate a whiteguy getting lost and then slaughtering people
claiming territory. You didn't discover Americapeople were already Yeah, yeah, you
don't get to claim that. Andhe didn't even land here the first time.
He didn't even know he didn't evenknow where the fuck he was.
But anyway, the World's Fair isto celebrate Columbus discovering quote unquote America.
(23:48):
And it was huge. We're talkingmillions and millions of people in this day
and age, like in the eighteenhundreds. Oh wow, you know it
was. It was a massive todo, and they cat in their training
year early to get there. Yeah. Well, and the fair would run
from May to October, so itran for a very long time. And
so so Chicago would be hosting thisfor months and naturally tourist attraction, tons
(24:12):
of people, and when you're runninga hotel that sounds like a great cash
cow and bonus, there will alsobe lots of women around to convince to
stay at his hotel or bury himeither way. So most visitors who checked
in during that period of time we'renever seen again. But there's very limited
(24:36):
information on any victims. And we'llget into why there is very limited information.
So let's talk about what the actualhotel was like. So we're talking
a three story hotel. The firstfloor had a hundred rooms on it,
so large, large hotel and Holmes'soffice was also down there. Okay,
then there were the two other floors, and there was also a basement.
(24:57):
Pretty typical standard layout. What wasn'tstandard was that many of the guest rooms
had gas lines that were run tothem, and they were also made to
be soundproof. Nice. This way, homes could asphyxiate his victims anytime he
wanted to just turn, just turnon a different line to a room,
button, soundproof, locked in.Myrtle's gonna get the gas today, it
(25:22):
would be there's no button. Yeah, it's like a crank. God,
damn it, Myrtle. You're abig woman. It's gonna take a lot
of gas, a lot of cranks. Yeah. Also, in addition to
this, there were peep holes allover the place, trapdoors, stairways that
went nowhere, and a shoot thatled to the basement. Body shoot.
(25:45):
So I don't believe that not asingle contractor, I just don't think they
cared noticed that this was fishy asshit. Yeah, fairways that go to
nowhere, a shoot, they couldgo to the basement just for trash or
paundry exactly, sure. But alsothat like crap doors yea, and people
yeah, and gas lines and gasand soundproofing. Like he could probably explain
(26:10):
away the soundproofing. Sure, it'sa hotel, you want it to be
soundproof. It's a private yeah yeah, sure, but I wouldn't mind if
hotel rooms were soundproof. I'd lovethat. Well, but here's the other
piece of this, Like it's suspiciousto us, yes, because we know
all this shit has happened, andwe know bad things happen, and back
then this didn't happen. Well,I mean, is not exactly, but
(26:34):
they may not put it all together. It's fair. I mean, nobody
has been that like depraved and richbefore that. They've just like built a
murder batch to create a fucking murdercastle. Yeah. Yeah, So the
basement was its own little nightmare becauseit was Holmes's like personal lab. Okay,
(26:56):
it had a dissecting table, astretching and a crematory. Huh.
And I don't know why you wouldneed a crematory in the basement of a
hotel yet again, another one ofthose contracting things. He's got to burn
his trash too, Laura, Okay, fair, that might Actually, I
don't know, I don't know.It's a thing here in the twenty first
(27:18):
century. If you live in yeah, rural Georgia. So Holmes would kill
these people in the rooms, gasthem, drop him out of a basement,
and then he would dissect and skinhis victims bodies so he could sell
their skeletons to medical schools. Yep. Again, no one is wondering how
(27:40):
this dude has so many human skeletons. Yeah, yeah, just to donate
to fucking medicine. Great. Wasthis back in the time of Burke and
Hair too. I don't remember theirBurke and Hair when they were grave robbing
and then killing people for skeletons andstuff. I'm just curious, like,
I think that was earlier. Yeah, I think that was. It seems
(28:02):
like the medical community didn't ask enoughquestions well, and I think their checks
and balances were a little off.Well. Not only that, but the
medical community didn't want to ask questionsbecause it was illegal to dissect or experiment
on any bodies, So they hadno way of like learning anything unless people
just and the only bodies that theyever had to experiment on illegally were like
(28:26):
criminals who were sentenced for execution formurder, which didn't happen a ton.
Yeah, and they didn't have enoughbodies. So like when people were like
some bodies for you, They're like, fuck, yeah, we need to
study studied. So stop making shitillegal and making it difficult for scientists to
look at stuff. Yes, yes, and maybe we wouldn't have an underground
(28:48):
body trade eighteen hundreds. During thiswhole time, he also traveled around and
committed insurance scams with an accomplice,Benjamin Pitzel. I'm just gonna call him
Pittzel because I don't know if it'show he pronounced Pitzel. So, after
the World's Fair ended, Chicago's economywent to total shit, as things usually
do when a big event is hosted, such as the Olympics in an area.
(29:15):
Oh god, the Olympics. Yeah, so economy went to shit,
and Holmes started focusing more on theinsurance scams and other cons then just kind
of left the hotel to just kindof sit there. Okay, Yeah,
he stole horses from Texas and hesold them, making a bunch of money.
But he was caught for this andarrested. Okay, so okay,
(29:37):
he went to jail. While hewas in jail, he made a friend,
Morgan Hedgepeth. Holmes convinced him thatif he would get him a lawyer,
he would pay him five hundred dollars. And he needed a lawyer because
he was going to fake his owndeath and collect ten thousand dollars in life
insurance money. Okay, okay,So home was going to fake his death,
(30:00):
fake his death, collect the moneyjail, okay. So once Holmes
was out of jail, he attemptedto take the ten thousand dollars life insurance
policy off on himself and then fakehis death. But the insurance company wasn't
buying it and they just didn't payhim. They were like, no,
okay, which is the thing theycould do back then, because what they
can, who's gonna come after him? Yeah, exactly. So this didn't
(30:25):
work, so he tried the samescheme again with his buddy Pitzel. This
time they would fake Pitzel's death,at least that's what Pizel thought, and
then they would collect the life instrumentinsurance money from Pitzelay, But Holmes just
straight up murdered Pitzel and then collectedthe life insurance money for himself. No
honor among thieves, No, No, there's not. Yeah. So Holmes
(30:51):
got the money from the life insurancepolicy. Come eighteen ninety four, Holmes's
greed kind of got the better ofhim. Okay, and Morgan, the
guy that he had talked to injail who was supposed to get him a
lawyer and get his five hundred dollars, never received any money because the insurance
thing didn't go anywhere. Okay.Yeah, and he was pissed. So
(31:12):
he went to the police and toldthem what Holmes had attempted. Okay,
So he turned him in for somethinghe wasn't He hadn't even successfully done,
correct, He turned him in fortalking to him and scheming and like attempted
planning this. Okay. So Holmeswas arrested in Boston and looked as if
(31:33):
he was trying to flee the country. That makes sense. Yeah, the
police were suspicious, so all ofthe police got involved from all of the
places he had been loving. Sothe Chicago police went to investigate the hotel
he owned. Oh yeah. Thereat the hotel they found all of Holmes's
(31:55):
murder traps and a ton of bodies. Oh wow, like a lot,
like a lot of bodies. Mostwere so badly decomposed and dismembered that they
were unidentifiable. And they were actuallyso mangled and stuff that they could not
even be accurately counted. So theyhave no idea how many bodies were present.
(32:16):
Yeah, because he had left themsitting there. Yeah, it's almost
like if a bomb went off,you just got flesh and pieces everywhere.
Yeah, there's you know, it'sa lot. We know it's a lot,
and they don't know, they can'tdon't know how much exactly, so
they couldn't determine exactly how many.So all in all of Holmes confessed to
(32:37):
twenty eight murders, not counting Pitzeland his children, who Holmes had apparently
murdered and dispatched stuff at some pointin time. Yeah, through the investigation,
like, it was determined that Holmeshad likely killed close to two hundred
people in total. No, wow, yep, damn. And how like
how long did he have this murdercastle. It doesn't seem like it was
(32:59):
so for long. It finished buildingin eighteen ninety one, and he was
arrested in eighteen ninety five and hangedin eighteen ninety six, So four years,
four or five years, which hecould have been Like, it sounds
like he was active a little bitbefore that. But the main bulk of
(33:20):
it would have been that like itwas, but he didn't kill anybody.
It seems like he didn't kill anybodyuntil the pharmacy. Yes, okay,
that's when he killed somebody, andthen he started just killing was his business.
Yeah. So he was hung ineighteen ninety six and the hotel was
remodeled and was due to be atourist attraction called the Holmes Horror Castle.
I've heard of that, yes,okay, okay, but it burned down
(33:44):
right before it was supposed to happen. So and yeah, that's it.
So thank you guys so much forjoining us. If you have any feedback,
you can leave a review or sendus a message on social media or
at our website, which simply TerriblePeople Doing Terrible Things dot WordPress dot com.
And remember, terrible people are everywhereand you might just be one of
(34:07):
them. Mann don't, don't,don't, don't do don't
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