March 15, 2021 • 46 mins
Join us for Part One of a two part series on America's favorite clown: Mr. John Wayne Gacy! Part loveable family man who volunteered at local children's hospitals, part rapist/murderer who targeted young men in Chicago, Gacy has made quite the name for himself in serial killer pop culture. Many of you know him as Pogo the Clown, his alter ego, but you may not know about his early development and his less than ideal childhood. In Part One, we discuss the origin story of Gacy while also working our way up to his first murder and first "use" of his new home's ample crawlspace. Did I mention his extensive childhood medical history and head injury yet? As Laura says, "It's always a head injury." Tune in to find out more!
If you prefer looking and listening, you can find our episodes in video form over at YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOfvqpv0LvHGC7ss3USYuEA. Be sure to subscribe/rate/review and why not go ahead and satisfy your curiosity and check out our Patreon page at https://www.patreon.com/terriblepeopledoingterriblethings. We appreciate the continued support!
All music (Creepy Comedy and Monsters in Hotel) is adapted from Rafael Krux original works (https://filmmusic.io/artists/rafael-krux) and is licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 International (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/)
If you prefer looking and listening, you can find our episodes in video form over at YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOfvqpv0LvHGC7ss3USYuEA. Be sure to subscribe/rate/review and why not go ahead and satisfy your curiosity and check out our Patreon page at https://www.patreon.com/terriblepeopledoingterriblethings. We appreciate the continued support!
All music (Creepy Comedy and Monsters in Hotel) is adapted from Rafael Krux original works (https://filmmusic.io/artists/rafael-krux) and is licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 International (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:15):
Welcome to terrible people doing terrible things. I'm Laura, a true crime and
horror fan who enjoys talking about terriblestuff. And I'm Amanda, and I'm
a licensed psychologist who enjoys studying theworst of humanity. So today, Laura,
I am going to cover one ofthe big guys, so to speak,
in the world of serial killers,and that man is mister John Wayne
(00:40):
Gacy Junior. Hmm, I didn'tknow he was a junior. Interesting,
I didn't either. You only everhear John Wayne Gacy? Yeah? Ever
hear Junior? Yeah? Or justGacy or Gacy yeah? Or you know
what was his clown name, likeBobo the Clossgo Pogo Go the Clown,
Pogo the Clown, not to beconfused with Bozo the Clown, who was
(01:06):
equally terrifying. They're all terrifying,like clowns in general. I'm sorry if
if somebody likes being like dressing upas a clown or something, but that
shit creeps me out. Yeah.I think it has to do with like
the Uncanny Valley or something with thelike the painted on smile, and it's
just it's just always unsettling looking tome in the face paint it is.
I've never liked it, even likeas a kid in the circus, just
(01:30):
as a kid in this Like Ijoined the fucking as a child. Yes,
yeah, I joined the circus asa child. No, it's just
creepy. I've never gone to ashow and been like the clowns. Yeay,
yay, I'm so excited to seethat people with fucking crazy hair and
painted on smiles do very exaggerated andstupid things. It's just not a valley.
(01:57):
It's just all dumb. So Iguess I'm also not like a slap
stick humor kind of person. Yes, yeah, like three Stooges, right,
things like that. Yeah, notreally my forte. So maybe that's
why I don't like it. Yeah, it's just it's not funny and it's
scary, yeah yeah. Well,or it's sad. Sometimes it's sad.
Sometimes they have tears and stuff paintedon them, or their mouths are painted
(02:20):
into a frown, and I'm like, why is it a sad clown?
It's like a depressing hobo clown orsomething, And I don't know how to
feel. I think the only thingworse is mimes, because they refuse to
talk to you. I like Ican handle mimes, can you, Like,
for whatever reason, the mime makeupand the mime what would you call
it miming? Yeah, like it'snot a spiel. I can't think of
(02:42):
the word, like whatever, they'restitch. Yes, their stick does not
bother me as much. I don'tknow. I've never actually seen a mime
in person, so I guess Idon't really have a fair comparison because I
don't think I've ever walked through thecity and just seeing somebody being a mime,
I'd probably be interested and kind oflike, I would be intrigued,
what are they doing? I'd beintrigued. They're gonna get stuck in a
(03:05):
box. They always get stuck ina box. It's the life of a
mime. Well, yeah, that'sthe quintessential my move. Maybe Gacy should
have gone with being a mime andhe wouldn't have gone down this dark path.
He certainly should have been kept ina fucking box. Yeah, he
should have been stuck in a box, and he ends up stuck in a
box for the rest of his life. So at least there's that true.
(03:27):
But so, his full name,like we were saying, was John Wayne
Gacy, junior, and he's alsoknown as the killer clown right good,
you know clown? Yeah, yeah, you almost don't even have to put
killer in front of it. No, you get the message. So he
was born on March seventeenth, SaintPatrick's Day in nineteen forty two, to
(03:50):
John Wayne Gaycy Senior and Marion ElaineRobinson. And Gaycey had two siblings,
both of which were sisters, andhe was the middle child an older sister
and a younger sister. Okay.Gacy grew up in Chicago, Illinois,
and was described as having an unremarkablechildhood, which is unremarkable except for the
(04:12):
fact that his father was an abusivealcoholic and a lot of other shit happened.
I hate it when they say that. Yeah, I hate it when
they say that. I hate whenthey say, like, oh, his
childhood was unremarkable because it makes youthink like, oh, he had a
completely normal childhood. No, gettinghim beat by your parents on the regular
because they're alcoholics. It's not anormal childhood and can cause some serious trauma.
(04:33):
It just depends on how the personinternalizes it. Oh yeah, yeah,
what are they internalizing it? Arethey externalizing it? And you know,
did anybody have like a normal childhood? Was anybody like not fucked up
at some point somehow by their LikeI feel like it's impossible as a parent
not to screw up your kid alittle. Well sure, but the way
(04:54):
I would kind of think about that, like, I'm sure I have some
friends like their parents it's fucked up, But it wasn't this lasting damage and
this lasting trauma kind of fuck up. It was just like, man,
they yelled at me once took thingsa little too far with being upset,
like Matt life altering exactly, butlike exactly. But yeah, I guess
(05:14):
it would also depend if your parentslike blow up all the time or just
you know sometimes like because it's easyto like be like, oh, well
that's not normal behavior and obviously they'reupset or yeah whatever. But I mean,
if you're just getting constantly like braidedand beaten and stuff like that,
that's not going to beat that's nota normal childhood, I know, perfectly
(05:36):
average childhood. No, he didnot. He did not in more ways
than one. So there are reportsthat Gacy Senior not only verbally and emotionally
abused his children, but also physicallyabused them and Gacy's father liked to taunt
his only son by calling him asissy. Toxic masculinity, Jesus, that's
(06:01):
like the whole nineteen forties to nineteensixties. You don't masculinity. It's so
ridiculous, it really is, becauseas a like, as a human,
all humans, regardless of gender orhow you identify or whatever, we all
have fucking feelings. Yeah, everybodyhas fucking feelings. And if you can't
talk about your feelings because you're notallowed to because society says, you know,
(06:24):
oh, you're just being a pushyyeah, like yeah, yeah,
that can that can fuck you up. Well yeah, and it sends a
message. It sends a message you'renot supposed to behave that way, and
so you need to hold all ofthat shit in or be aggressive because that's
the other thing that's allowed if you'remale. And then you're you're you know,
you're in a relationship and you're frustrated, but you're not allowed to talk
(06:45):
about your feelings and stuff, sothen you just take it out on somebody
else. Yeah you know what Imean. And it's like, I'm perfectly
fine with you crying, Oh yeah, with you, like everybody cries everybody,
like, why is this a thing? Like we all have tear ducks.
They're there for a reason. Like, it's not like they've been removed
from the people with the X Ychromosomes or something selectively. Right, it's
not like you're I mean, youare biologically different, but not in that
(07:09):
way. Yeah, not in termsof emotions now, that is more socialized
to be different and to be calledlike a sissy by your father, who
is like the only other man inthe house because he has two sisters,
right, one older, one youngeryea, and a younger sister. He's
targeting his son. So you havethree women and then the one man of
the house who's then calling you asissy and like you're not living up to
(07:31):
you know, what he defines asa man. Yeah. Well, and
have we talked about toxic masculinity onhere before? No, I don't think
so. Really, Okay, Iwant to quickly just try to dispel I
don't want people to hear that andnot understand what it means, because I
have seen where people post online alot about like getting angry about the term
(07:53):
toxic masculinity because I don't think theyunderstand it. Yeah, So let's see
if I can be is sinct aboutthis, God help me. I'm not
good at that. So toxic masculinity, it's not saying that men are toxic.
It's not saying that men are bad. It is not saying anything about
men. It's saying something about societyand how like reinforcing toxic masculine behaviors like
(08:18):
aggression, like holding in your feelings, like being really independent and not seeking
help. That's what that is.It's a phenomenon. It's not about men
in general. No, it's aboutthe socialization of men. Yeah, And
it's about like the restriction on menfor their feelings and stuff like that,
because, like I said, everybody'sa fucking human and everybody has feelings.
(08:41):
You know, if you call somebodyan asshole, they feel it just the
same. You know, they maynot show it, but and that's the
problem is that they're not allowed toshow it. So then you know,
then you get into like passive aggressivebehavior because it's got to come out somehow.
Yeah, well, and displaced aggressionand anger that's not actually hitting the
right target anymore, and it's justlashing out and it's like overall just super
(09:05):
unhealthy for us. As a society. Toxic masculinity has nothing to do with
like, oh I'm down with thepatriarchy men like, No, not saying
any of that. Just like thatpressure on men, just like the beauty
standards and pressure on women. Yes, affect how we grow up and affect
how we learn, how to dealwith our emotions, talk about our emotions
(09:28):
and interact with other people. Andyou know, if we're constantly repressed,
you know. So yeah, toxicmasculinity isn't like, oh, men suck,
Yeah, but you do. No, I'm just kidding. Everyone sucks.
This is what the should about.Humans suck, like in general,
all over the board, humans suck. Yeah, a little bit. So
let's see. So even though hisfather would taught him, his mother and
(09:54):
sisters were actually there to kind ofhelp buffer this cruelty, and they appear
to have been much more loving.They would refer to Gaysey as Johnny,
and that was kind of this affectionatenickname they gave to the young boy.
So they were nice, yeah him. They didn't like make it worse.
No, they didn't engage in theabuse. They didn't engage in the taunting.
So they were there to help kindof buffer some of the cruelty side.
(10:18):
Note, this is probably why hedoesn't kill women. True, good
point. Well, yeah so,and there's a whole string of just shit
that happens to this poor guy whenhe's a kid. And yes, I'm
saying poor guy, he is stilla bastard. Well you can feel unfortunate
for like what he went through.Yeah, what he went through made him
who he is exactly, you knowwhat I mean. So, like you
(10:39):
don't want anybody to have to gothrough that. But also, don't fucking
kill people. Yeah, no,don't kill people. Got to draw a
line somewhere, don't don't do badthings to other people. Yeah. So,
at the age was just six yearsold, Gaysey's father, likely looking
to further punish and torment his onlyson, shot and killed his dog simply
because the boy had upset him yearsold. Oh that's I mean, that'd
(11:03):
be traumatizing at any fucking age.But that's so awful because like the emotional
attachment that we have with animals,especially as children, and especially if he's
like, you know, getting theshit beat out of him and his dad,
like his dog is probably one ofhis only friends, you know what
I mean. And then to manthat's that's sick anytime I hear because I
(11:24):
think there was another like serial killeror something that his dad like slaughtered his
like pig in front of him orsomething like that. Yeah, you're a
bad person. You're a bad person, and you made a serial killer,
so you should feel good about that. Feel good about that, sir.
Yeah, well that was like theCatherine Knight episode you did, because didn't
she kill his puppy? Yeah?Yeah, yeah, her husband's or her
(11:48):
boyfriend's puppy. She was a littlebit off the rails. Yeah, I
guess, yeah, just a littlebit. But I mean it makes sense
because they're targeting anything that you havean attachment too. They just want to
hurt you. And animals are easy, especially dogs. They're so sweet,
I know, they just want love. And then you come at him like
(12:09):
that, you know, rude.Yeah, and it gets worse, of
course. So at nine years old, Gaycy experienced even further trauma when a
friend of his father's sexually abused him. I don't know if this was a
one time occurrence or if it happenedmultiple times, but we can see where
the abuse and trauma is already compoundingand what is still a very young age
(12:33):
for him. And I can imaginethat even if he tried to say something
or tell his father, his fatherwould have believed his friend over his sissy
son. Oh yeah, well,and he probably would have looked further down
on his child or probably would havesaid that gays like because if it's another
man, yeah, especially that,especially especially like and you have to imagine
(12:56):
that, like this guy who's callinghis on a sissy, Definitely it's probably
homophobic. He's just just a lot. Oh god, So I can only
imagine, Yeah, he shot adog. He's a bad person. I'm
just going to attribute every bad qualityto this name at this point. You're
just You're just a bastard. Yeah. So, outside of this trauma,
(13:16):
Gacy actually seemed like a normally developingchild and teen. So during his younger
years, he worked various part timejobs to help the family, and again
this was not unusual for young boysduring the forties, fifties, and sixties.
So he worked as a newspaper deliveryboy as well as a bagger at
a local grocery store, and hewas also active in the Boy Scouts,
(13:37):
and it's reported that he seemed likea just overall a well adjusted child to
his teachers, despite struggling a bitin his schooling. I'm wondering at what
point this like breaks off into destructivebehavior, because so far it seems like
he's just like kind of taken thepunches, Yeah, and just kind of
going with the flow. Yeah,he's somehow he's managing. It could be
(13:58):
that he's repressing a lot, whichI'm sure he is, but functioning.
He's still functioning very well right inthe outside world. Additional stressors in Gaysey's
early years revolved around his physical health, as there are reports of various significant
health issues and physical traumas in hischildhood. At the age of just five
(14:20):
years, he started experiencing seizures andwas prescribed in epilepsy medication to treat this
condition, and then tied to thiswhen he was ten years old. He
ends up being officially diagnosed with psychomotorepilepsy and would experience random fainting episodes related
to this condition. That's not goingto help his father's opinion of them poor
(14:41):
guy. Yeah, Well, andif he's taking it seriously, if he's
adding stress while he's seizing, likeI just I can only imagine what his
reaction would have been. To seeingthat in his sissy son, seeing his
sissy son faint. Yeah, I'msure, yeah, only he probably just
got beat as soon as he wakedup, waked up or a wild god
(15:01):
woke up, Oh my god,waked it from his seat seizure. So
I'm gonna just briefly describe what psychomotorepilepsy is. So it's also known as
temporal lobe epilepsy, and it's atype of partial seizure in which a person
may have a fixed stare, beunaware or confused about what is going on
around them, yep, have fumblingwith their fingers or lip smacking movements.
(15:26):
And it lasts about thirty seconds toa couple of minutes. So it's it's
not a full seizure. It's notlike a Grand Mall seizure. It is
something where they may just seem reallyout of it and then they're back.
So it's harder. It's much harderto diagnose because of that. Interesting,
Okay, so he's dealing with that. And as if the seizures weren't enough,
there are even reports indicating that thisis going to pique your interest.
(15:50):
Laura Gacy suffered from a head injurywhen he was just eleven years old.
Sol is a hand injury. It'salways and it's always a fucking swing set.
This again, was a swing setsituation, so he was playing on
the swings. A swing hits himin the head. After the injury,
and this was something new that Ihadn't heard about with other killers or criminals
(16:11):
who had a head injury, Gacystruggled with blackouts. Blackouts are never good.
It's not it's never good. Theseblackouts continued for five years, and
he had a blood clot that hadformed in his brain. Whoa, and
it went undiscovered until he was sixteen. So he went from eleven to age
sixteen with a blood clot blackouts froma head injury. He could have fucking
(16:34):
died instantly at any moment. Ablood clot in your brain, Well yeah,
I mean, thank god. Iguess he wasn't driving a car yet,
maybe blacking out of the wheel.I mean, honestly, comparatively to
how he wound up, probably wouldhave been better off that way. Yeah,
block as it wasn't somehow like abust full of thirty three children or
something. Yeah, because it endsup being like thirty three victims. It's
(16:59):
like Oh, thank god. Hewasn't driving a car. Maybe he should
have been. Maybe he should haveprobably could have saved a few Maybe he
should have been driving a car withhis dad in it and they just both
kicked off. Yeah, hit atree. Nobody else is injured. That's
interesting. It's always a head injury. It always a head injury. It's
something, man, it's always it'sa head injury. And it seems like
(17:22):
there's also a lot of early traumaabuse, trauma, trauma, bullying.
It's always like but there's always likea head injury thrown in there, like
the person would have been like,okay, but then you know the trauma
plus a brain injury everything else bam. Yeah, it's just everything builds and
builds. So he was able toundergo treatment. Once they finally diagnosed the
(17:47):
damn clot and the blackout ceased.He treated the clot, he's good to
go with no more blackouts at leastnow. Blackout means like that's not the
same as passing out right. Blackoutjust me that you don't remember. It
can mean passing out. I wonderif he was actually like passing out or
just not remembering spaces of time likelosing time. I'm not exactly sure,
(18:11):
so even more health issues would followfor Gacy. So, he has a
ton selectomy at the age of fifteen, and he begins experiencing sharp stomach pains
soon after this, and while he'sat the hospital recovering from the ton selectomy,
doctors determined that he actually had aruptured appendix that probably would have killed
him without any treatment. He livedthrough quite a bit, he did so.
(18:37):
There are also reports that he sufferedfrom chest pain throughout his teenage years,
and this would eventually be diagnosed asthe very vague non specific heart ailment
when he was seventeen years old.Non specific heart ailment, that's basically a
document way of telling you, Idon't know what's wrong with you. There
should be a code that can beput in for I don't know what the
(19:00):
fuck is going on. That isit? This is non specific cart ailment.
Yeah, yeah, that's the cardiacversion of it. There's probably like
non specific gas trick ailment. Wedon't know, non specific head ailment.
Yeah, it's just as we don'tknow. We know that your heart hurts.
Yeah. Yeah, it's like Iguess at least they believe him.
(19:21):
I mean it's a medical diagnosis versusYeah, like but the versus conversion disorder,
which they love to give to femaleswho were experiencing pain that they can't
pinpoint. That's another episode maybe.So this condition would make it difficult for
Gaysey to lead a normal adolescent life. He couldn't run around, he couldn't
(19:41):
be as carefree as his peers becausehe had a heart condition. He had
to be careful. Yeah, wellhe had a heart condition. He had
epilepsy they had to treat. Hehad a lot going on. All of
this seems to have been happening aroundthe same time Gaysey was realizing he was
attracted to men, So fifteen sixteenseventeen, starting to kind of realize he
(20:03):
has these desires and this was anattraction he would struggle with and keep hidden
for basically the rest of his life. Which is a sad a sad reality
of how like suppressing things can cango badly because it's not like he like,
he's not going to tell his fatherthat, oh God probably kill him.
Yeah, that's unfortunate. Yeah,just accept people for who they are.
(20:26):
Got yet, Yeah, it's likekilling people. It's hard enough for
people to come out today. Ican't even imagine what it was like in
the forties, fifties, Oh can'tawful just I mean, you could be
killed. Oh yeah, you couldbe arrested up to a certain point.
I don't remember when that stopped.But you could be put into mental institutions.
I don't remember when that stopped either. But homophobia was or homophobia being
(20:52):
being gay, it was considering amental health. Yes, yeah, we
had a diagnosis for it up untilI want to say the sixties maybe,
I think so, Yeah, somethinglike that. So it doesn't surprise me
that he wouldn't tell anybody, itwouldn't ever admit it. Yeah, unbeknownst
to most of his family and peers, some peculiar behaviors were starting to take
(21:14):
shape at a very young age forGaycy. So, for starters, he
was caught with his mother's panties ona few different occasions. Well weird.
First time this happened, the sevenyear old gay Sy was subsequently disciplined by
his father with a whipping naturally,which I'm imagining is just a very harsh
beating and physical abuse. Yeah,oh for sure. Yeah. The second
time he was caught with his mother'sundies he was eleven years old and his
(21:38):
mother punished her son by making himwear her panties to school that day.
Oh, that's maybe don't do that. Maybe that's not the right, of
course, off make him wear them. It reminds me of when a parent
catches their child with a cigarette andmakes them smoke the whole pack. It's
like, nah, it's like,I get that you're trying to teach a
(22:00):
lesson, but I'm pretty sure that'sprobably they're both physically and mentally damaging.
Yes, well, and with smokingcigarettes, it's like nicotine addiction. Hello,
you want me to smoke the wholepack? Okay, you're going to
foster this addiction for me. IfI only snuck one for the first time,
I might have been like this asdisgusting, never done it again.
(22:21):
And he was caught with women's underwearat least one other time. I don't
know how many times total he mayhave taken women's panties, but at least
one other time He's caught at theage of fifteen years old. But this
kind of creepy fascination with women's panties. I don't want to overstigmatize it because
I know there are fetishes that existthat are perfectly healthy. Yep, but
(22:42):
your mother's panties, it's a littleweird. It's a little weird. It's
a little weird. I guess fora kid, that's the only access point
they might have. I mean seven, okay, eleven, yeah, fifteen,
fifteen, Like, yeah, maybeshould not be stealing our mother's underwear
anymore, because God alla knows whathe's doing with them. And I know
(23:03):
those have been on your mom's vagina. They're like an unhealthy attachment you're forming
to mom because she's the only safeperson in your house other than your siblings,
right right, Hey, guys,we're gonna take a very quick break,
so enjoy these ads and we'll beright back. So the panties aren't
(23:33):
the only bit of troubling behavior.So at nineteen years old, Gacy ends
up leaving Chicago, so leaving hisfamily home, and he moves to Las
Vegas, where he obtains work asan EMS worker. Okay, but that
is very short lived because his employerslearn he's only nineteen, and I guess
at the time, nineteen is tooyoung for this position. So he's removed
(23:56):
from this post and he's reassigned towork as a janitor for a local mortuary.
Oh yeah, no, forgive theserial killers access to the morgue.
Yes, yes, budding serial killerwith access to dead bodies. So the
new work environment affords him time toplay around a bit more, as he
(24:17):
would later confess that he began experimentingwith the dead bodies and that he had
learned the entire embalming process. Imean doesn't surprise me. I mean,
if you're working in a mortuary,I'm imagine it's just you know, a
sequence of certain chemicals and yeah,things like that. When do they the
pink juice or is that something else? Is that what they used to call
euthanasia stuff? No, that pinkslime. That's what's left over from Hamburgers
(24:42):
floor of un processing fun places.Pink slime. No, but like I
can, because you have to drainthe body of fluid. Yeah, then
you have to, like it's awhole process. No, No, I
can't imagine. Glad people do it? Not for me? Well, yeah,
definitely, definitely not for me.So there are also reports that Gacy
(25:06):
would climb into the caskets to quoteunquote try them out, and he attributes
this to just simple curiosity. He'sjust curious. Um, I mean I
can't say that I wouldn't climb intoa coffin and might they look very comfy,
probably a cool place to take anap, as long as somebody doesn't
lock it. Well, yeah,somehow I get locked in there, Like
I'd have to be one hundred percentcertain that ship wasn't going to close on
(25:30):
me. But like with the casketopen and you're working at a mortuary,
like I'm just gonna go lay ina casket for a little, a little
nappy nap, I can't say Iwouldn't do it. Yeah, I might
try it to. Like to me, that was a little less troubling.
I guess it was more like,Okay, what's his intention in doing this?
And if it is just simple curiosity, the playing with the dead bodies
is a big no no. Yeah. So yeah, that's the part that
(25:53):
concerns me, is is touching ofdead bodies and stuff when he's a janitor
at a mortuary and not a mortician. Tan, he's still pretty damn young.
He's young. He's not a mortician, he's not a coroner. He's
a janitor who has learned the entireembalming process. Yeah, has more access
to these things than he should have. It sounds like, yeah, yeah,
(26:17):
So this curiosity and experimentation would ultimatelylead to his termination from the job
after his supervisor discovered the clothing ofdeceased individuals lying next to the caskets in
the mortuary. I don't know whatthat means in terms of what he was
doing undressing the dead people. Iguess he was interested. They were interested.
Oh no, it's a mortuary,so that means that they're getting prepared
(26:41):
for viewings and stuff. Yeah,so maybe he is. Maybe they're already
getting in the casket or preparing themfor the casket, and he's taking off
their clothes, So he's molesting deadbodies. I don't know. I don't
know. We'll suffice it to sayit was bizarre and unsettling enough that he
was fired. So I feel likeif if I ran a mortuary, i'd
(27:02):
probably fired the guy who is well, he's a janitor too, Like I
keep I guess I keep forgetting thatpoint. That's that's the main issue.
Yeah, is that, like you'resupposed to be cleaning the place, not
touching any of the dead people.Yeah, or their things, their belongings.
Or their belongings. Yeah, thecaskets. Yeah, we're so jobless
(27:23):
and likely experiencing financial struggles. Gacyreturned to his hometown of Chicago that same
year, So he wasn't out inVegas very long, doesn't doesn't surprise me.
He couldn't cut it. Yeah,no, no, a little too
weird. Outside of these weird behaviors, Gacy's young adult years included college coursework
at Northwestern Business College, despite neverhaving graduated from high school. He didn't
(27:47):
get his ged yet. I don'tunderstand he somehow took coursework at this business
college. It sounds like he's prettygood at like pretending that he's older.
And yeah, it probably wasn't checked, like super crazy. Yeah, something
fell through the cracks or they allowedpeople to take coursework for non credit.
That's possible. I know you cando that. That's possible. I have
no idea. So he also hasa successful career in sales and management.
(28:12):
He's kind of doing pretty good despitethe weirdness. He was very involved in
the political world as a volunteer withthe Democratic Party and also served as an
active member of the JCS and thisis a national leadership and Civics group.
So he's in the community. Heis making a name for himself networking.
(28:33):
Okay, interesting, and as manyof you already know, Gacy was also
very much down to clown as hisalter ego, Pogo the Clown, but
he doesn't actually end up creating Pogountil he's thirty three years old. I
didn't realize that. I didn't realizeit was I didn't realize that either.
Kind of Well into his criminal career, it was not a common for Gacy
(28:55):
to be dressed in full clown suitand clown makeup at charity events or local
children's parties, and he even volunteeredto visit and cheer up the children at
the local hospitals. So like,on the surface, he seems like a
pretty good guy. They always do. They always seem Yeah, oh,
take Blundy's so attractive. Huh sohe murders you, Oh gosh. Yeah,
(29:19):
they're good at leading kind of thisdouble life. A lot of them
not at all. A lot ofthem are good a leading kind of that
double blue. Yeah. Some ofthem are like, you're like, oh
damn, he's awkward. Everyone sawit coming. He's a serial killer.
Yeah, he necessarily killer. He'sgot dead bodies somewhere, So it wouldn't
be long before Gacey was in troublewith the police, however, as his
(29:41):
deeply repressed sexual desires started weighing onhim, and in nineteen sixty four,
at the age of twenty two yearsold, Gasey got married to Marlon Myers.
And this just so happened to bethe same year that Gasey would experience
his first sexual encounter with another man. Well besides the abuse, yeah,
besides the abuse. So his firstconsensual volition. I'm gonna I'm gonna question
(30:06):
if it's consensual based on the ageof some of his oh future lovers,
so to speak. But yeah,well I guess consensual on his part.
Yes, he's initiating. This issomething he is finally initiating and not being
done to him. So Gaysie's marriageto Marlin. Her name is Marlin.
It's not Marylyn. It's Marlin,and I hate it. Marlin like the
(30:29):
fish and it's not Marylyn, Marlin, it's Marlin. Doesn't surprise me for
some reason. I'm married to afish, Marlin, mars my name's Marlin.
Yeah, it's not even a woman, it's a fish. He married
a fish. You married a fish. So Gasie's marriage to Marlin may have
just been away for him to keepup appearances, as he was not at
all out in terms of his homosexualdesires and likely still in denial about these
(30:53):
desires himself. But yeah, butdespite the nature of the marriage, it
wasn't long until Gacy joined the familybusiness. You see, his father in
law just happened to own a coupleof KFC restaurants in Iowa, and it
wasn't long before the father in lawrequested that Gaycy relocate to Iowa to help
manage three of these KFC's. JohnWayne Gacy managed KFC's oh yeah, oh
(31:18):
yeah boy fuck fun little fact here, Gacy's last meal in prison just so
happened to include a bucket of originalrecipe KFC reget There was other shit too,
but um regional recipe. I'm notgonna lie I eat that. Yes,
I know that they mistreat their theirchickens. It's not gonna be the
last meal. Yeah no, no, it's not gonna be the last peal.
(31:38):
But I also eat KFC. Althoughquick KFC story, Like, my
mom and I didn't eat there fora long long time because like when we
first ish moved down here to Georgia. Like, I went in and my
mom was like, oh, getcatch upp and since those little wooden containers,
you know that, like whatever,I stuck my hand into, get
(32:00):
catch up, and the wood movedand there were just cockroaches a plenty,
just gittling everywhere. And my momhas not eaten KFC since I had a
restaurant have an A plus health healthrating. I don't remember. I don't
remember. I was really young,but like I was like, stick your
(32:21):
hand, and I was not afan of bugs. Oh yeah, already
had an issue. Yeah, becauseyou don't like butterflies either, I don't,
so you're definitely not gonna like cockroaches. No, I don't like any
bugs. I hate them. Yeah, no, anything most things that can
fly at me, I'm not okaywith. I'm cool with butterflies, ladybugs,
pe on you. I'm not coolthough. Oh yeah, I don't
(32:42):
like them, pepe, microscopic peak. I don't like any of them.
So he managed KFC's So Cool KFCs. He loved that KFC fried chicken,
he loved the Colonel Shanders meat,and upon agreeing to the request from his
father in law, Gacy and Marlinend up relocating from Illinois to Waterloo,
Iowa that same year they're married.There's a lot of shit happening very quickly,
(33:07):
and the two would end up havinga couple of children together in the
next couple of years. Michael andChristine. That's probably about all I'm going
to say about them. Yeah,and this marriage was not built to last,
of course, the prize Gacy's wife, Marlon, would request a divorce
in nineteen sixty nine after her husbandwas arrested and charged with sodomy that year
(33:29):
before. I mean, fair,you know, I'd probably be pretty upset
about that too. Yeah, butI still kind of feel bad for him,
I know, because I mean,this is obviously just not the life
that he wanted, weren't deserved,you knows. As a child, No,
he didn't do anything wrong. Itwas just born into the wrong family
(33:52):
in decade potentially with being homosexual,and very much born into the wrong time.
So two years prior, in nineteensixty seven, Gasey assaulted a sixteen
year old male, but was unsuccessfulin his attempts to take things further.
So sixteen year old, yes,too young. I don't think he went
into it trying to assault. Ithink he wanted to initiate sexual contact,
(34:16):
didn't know how, and the kidresisted. I mean, he's a kid,
which his right to do, andhe's a fucking kid, and I
think this is what led to theassault charge. I see, Okay,
And despite this, Gacy ends upgoing on to form a club for the
male employees at his workplace, soat the KFC's, and even enters into
(34:37):
a sexual relationship with another sixteen yearold boy, who eventually tells his father
what's going on. And this incidentis reported to the police in March nineteen
sixty eight, and this is whenhe's charged with sodomy and May of that
same year. Maybe don't go aftersixteen year olds, yeah, I guess
(34:57):
if he's working at a kif Seethough, that's a lot of young like
teenagers who work at fast food restaurantsand stuff. So yeah, and Mail
still male at this point because girlsaren't his thing really working. Yeah,
so he's got his pickens of youngmales right now. And of course he
initially claims that the relationship was mutual, which maybe in his mind it was.
(35:19):
However, sixteen year old boy,twenty five year old man can't give
consent, not a thing. Idon't know if the age of consent was
ever sixteen back in the day.It's possible. However, it's still a
nine year age difference. It depends. It depends on the age of majority
in the state. So if you'reif it's a seventeen year age of majority,
then yes, but if it's eighteen, you gotta be eighteen. Interesting,
(35:43):
I always just assume it's eighteen forsexual relationships. Well, should just
draw the line at eighteen for mepersonal? I mean, unless of course
you're like seventeen and nineteen or yeah, there are I think fourteen and sixteen
is okay. If the two partsparties are fourteen and sixteen, they're teenagers,
yeah, you know what I mean, like they're teenagers, they're in
(36:05):
the same school. Like you know, you have kids who are you know,
within this four year age range ofeach other. But like anything like
like outside of that, well,like fourteen and seventeen I think in some
states is too far. Yeah,seventeen is getting a little too old.
There's I don't know all the statutorylaws, but it's just that it's the
gap, honestly. Yeah, becauselike fourteen and fourteen, they're both fourteen,
(36:30):
you know what I mean, Butlike fourteen and seventeen, fourteen and
eighteen, you're you're getting like alot more mentally mature. Yeah, and
there's a lot more room for likemanipulation and things like that. So yeah,
it's just very different developmental trajectories atthat point. Yeah. Although he's
claiming, you know, initially thatthis is mutual, he fails multiple polygraph
examinations and eventually he pleads guilty thatsame September. Okay. At his sentencing,
(36:55):
the judge orders Gaycy to undergo apsychiatric evaluation where and it is determined
he meets criteria for antisocial personality disorder. What is antisocial personality disorder? That's
the one most criminals and serial killersget diagnosed with or have. So when
we say someone's a sociopath, typicallymeans they have this disorder. Gotcha?
Okay, So and here's a littlesnapshot of what that means. So,
(37:20):
individuals diagnosed with ASPD antisocial PD typicallylack empathy and at times will show blatant
disregard for the rights and feelings ofothers. They have difficulty forming intimate relationships,
and tend to be impulsive, reckless, manipulative, exploitative, deceitful,
hostile, and or irresponsible. Andso to put it a little more simply,
(37:40):
they don't operate from the same perspectivethat mentally healthy and interpersonally able individuals
do. I gotcha. So theirdecisions are almost solely guided by self fulfillment
and are not concerned with the wellbeing of others. So it's like narcissism
to like another level of like towhere like you disregard other people's like human
rights and like basic personal space orlike just everything, like you see somebody
(38:07):
as nothing. Yeah, it's likeit's personal and social just I don't care
about society standards. I don't careabout other people's well being or need for
safety and boundaries. Okay, andthis is interesting. So rules are important
only in situations where they must followthese rules or face punishment. So like,
(38:28):
they can follow the rules they knowenough about their cognizant of the fact
that social are in place, sometimesin more extreme environments, so like socially
they won't really follow them. Butlike if they're in prison, or if
they're in a structured environment like schoolor military or work, they can follow
these rules. They can kind oftow the line because they know they don't
(38:50):
want to face the punishment. Butit's not because they think they should follow
the rules. It's just a wayto avoid punishment. There's no bearing of
like, oh, I shouldn't dothis because it's bad. Yeah, it's
I shouldn't do this because I'll getarrested. Yep. So yep. So
if they can break a law orrule and get away with it, they
will, right, But they canand here if need be for at least
(39:13):
a certain amount of time. Yeah, it to some extent, and like
that's why some of these individuals thatare so far on that spectrum of antisocial
PD confunction to a point in society. Ted Bundy Gacy would also receive a
ten year sentence for his crime,and he would be housed at the Iowa
State Reformatory while serving his time.In addition of news about the divorce from
(39:37):
his wife, so he's in jailor prison, he gets news that his
wife's going to divorce him, hecould serve. He also learns that his
father has passed away while he's incarcerated. Oh darn, he's so he's not
permitted to attend the funeral. NowThe issue here is he's still very much
I think wanted to make his fatherproud and wanted to earn his father's love
(39:59):
and respect. So I think thisis probably another big stressor snapping. Yeah,
yes, yes, another big stressorthere was another um was the chessboard
killer or no, no it wasje Vida whom dim or go see her
her before she died or her funeralbecause he was incarcerated. Yeah, I
(40:22):
don't see a problem with releasing himto the responsibility of a guard to accompany
him or something to attend the fuckingfuneral. I don't see a problem with
that. Maybe I'm I mean,it's probably because people die a lot.
Yeah, let's be honest, andif you have a prison full of i'd
say immediate family only, Yeah,you know, you don't get to parents,
(40:44):
do cousins or friends? Yeah,shitty as that is, but parents,
children, spouses. We're going togive you a break with this,
and not because they deserve it asmuch as maybe it would not continue to
add to the trauma they've already experienced. That's allowing or contributing to their criminal
career. Yeah yeah, but Imean, like you know, also,
(41:06):
incarceration isn't meant to be like,well, at least not here. It's
not meant to be rehabilitation or reformative, even though it's punitive reform. He's
in a reform at reforming. He'sgoing to reform right into a fucking psycho.
Oh yeah, he does. So. Fast forward to nineteen seventy one.
(41:27):
Gaysey is paroled the year before,So he's out after only serving like
two years of his ten years sentence, and he successfully completes the terms of
his probation, which I think wasfor another year. After he's paroled,
he is now living in Chicago withhis mother, and it started working as
a chef at a local restaurant thatwas frequented by the Chicago PD. So
he spends a lot of his downtimeat work socializing with the police. And
(41:51):
he just so happened to meet adetective Jack Hanley. And this is important
because Gaycey would use Detective Hanley's nameas a means of gaining trial from many
of his future victims. So he'sgonna assume his identity to some extent.
Yeah. This same year, soin nineteen seventy one, Gacy has arrested
for raping a teenage boy. Butthe charges are dropped because the accuser does
(42:15):
not show up for the hearing,so they just road the chargers. That
is often how that happens. Yes, yes, unfortunately that is Yeah,
and that's that's a sad thing aboutmost like rape, but like not most,
but like a lot of rape casesand stuff like that. Is like
if there's no person to press charges, then yeah, they're throwing it out.
(42:36):
They just get to walk free.By this point, Gasey had already
quit his chef job and was doingcontracting work, and he and his mother
actually end up purchasing a new hometogether, but they remained in Chicago,
so they move out of the familyhome purchase a home the two of them,
and this home just so happened tohave quite a large crawl space.
Yeah. Have you ever been ina cross space? Yes, we have
(43:00):
one here. I hate it.I hate it. I like it,
and I hate it. Like it'skind of cool getting under there. I
just don't want to get bit byspider and die under there or the snake
whatever it's living there. My dadtricked me into going into our crawl space
as a teenager because I was outsidedigging a hole and it was really hard,
(43:20):
and we had to get under thereto turn off the water, which
was the thing for it was underthe crawl space under the house, okay,
And he was like, I'll makeyou a deal. He was like,
you crawl in there and go turnoff the water and I'll dig the
hole. I was like, allright, cool, it sounds I can
crawl under there. The whole bottomof our crawlspace was covered in black tarp.
Oh yeah, but over like moundsof dirt, so it looked like
(43:43):
there were like bodies. And I'mafraid of bugs and stuff. So I
get under there and it's all likegross, and there's like webs and stuff.
Yeah, I'm just like scooching throughand everywhere I look just looks like
there are dead bodies buried under AndI used to have this joke that my
dad worked for the FBI or theCIA, because he was such a stoic
and like man a few words,stoic guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(44:04):
And I never really knew like whathe did for work or whatever.
And so I was like, thisis where he keeps all of the buddies
and people he murders. This iswhat happened to his past FBI partners that
rolled him crosspaces are never pleasant.Oh God, Now I was just just
dirt and I love it. Justsee you living under there where Amanda comes
(44:27):
out from the thing. She's havinga panic attack, so she went to
the crawl space. I don't getit either, good place to recover.
Just grow up in the fetal positionand crawl space. Just pass out and
then I wake up feeling better.So things really start to pick up.
Just one year later, so Januarythird, nineteen seventy two, Gacy committed
(44:47):
his first murder when he attacked andkilled Timothy Jack McCoy, who was only
fifteen years old, so very young. He's going for a lot of kids.
He sticks with the young males.I think the age increases a little,
yeah, but it's it's a youngmale thing he's got going. Yeah.
Authorities would later share that Timothy hadstopped off in Chicago just briefly on
(45:09):
his best route home from visiting hisfamily for Christmas. The team was stabbed
to death and would become the firstbody buried in Gaycy's crawl space of his
new home, and this murder wouldbe the first of what would come to
total thirty three murders eventually discovered ateighty two thirteen West Summerdale Avenue, Chicago.
Guys, don't bury the bodies underyour crawl space. Don at your
(45:32):
own home, don't not at yourplace of work. Don't shit where you
eat, like, yeah, nevershit where you eat. Never shit where
you eat. There's a reason therearen't toilets in the kitchen, right,
And I'm better tell you what.A decomposing body smells a lot worse than
a toilet. Yeah, So,although I guess he does know the embombing
process, So maybe does he does, Maybe he knows how to minimize the
(45:54):
stink. Yeah, hey he doessomething to minimize it. Yeah, I'm
sure he does. But that isit for part one of John Wayne Gacy
Junior. Thank you so much forjoining us. If you have any feedback,
you can find us on social mediaor at our website, which is
simply terrible people doing terrible things atWordPress dot com. And remember, terrible
(46:15):
people are everywhere, and you mightjust be one of them, right,
Welcome to terrible people doing terrible things. I'm Laura, a true crime and
horror fan who enjoys talking about terriblestuff. And I'm Amanda, and I'm
a licensed psychologist who enjoys studying theworst of humanity. So today, Laura,
I am going to cover one ofthe big guys, so to speak,
in the world of serial killers,and that man is mister John Wayne
(00:40):
Gacy Junior. Hmm, I didn'tknow he was a junior. Interesting,
I didn't either. You only everhear John Wayne Gacy? Yeah? Ever
hear Junior? Yeah? Or justGacy or Gacy yeah? Or you know
what was his clown name, likeBobo the Clossgo Pogo Go the Clown,
Pogo the Clown, not to beconfused with Bozo the Clown, who was
(01:06):
equally terrifying. They're all terrifying,like clowns in general. I'm sorry if
if somebody likes being like dressing upas a clown or something, but that
shit creeps me out. Yeah.I think it has to do with like
the Uncanny Valley or something with thelike the painted on smile, and it's
just it's just always unsettling looking tome in the face paint it is.
I've never liked it, even likeas a kid in the circus, just
(01:30):
as a kid in this Like Ijoined the fucking as a child. Yes,
yeah, I joined the circus asa child. No, it's just
creepy. I've never gone to ashow and been like the clowns. Yeay,
yay, I'm so excited to seethat people with fucking crazy hair and
painted on smiles do very exaggerated andstupid things. It's just not a valley.
(01:57):
It's just all dumb. So Iguess I'm also not like a slap
stick humor kind of person. Yes, yeah, like three Stooges, right,
things like that. Yeah, notreally my forte. So maybe that's
why I don't like it. Yeah, it's just it's not funny and it's
scary, yeah yeah. Well,or it's sad. Sometimes it's sad.
Sometimes they have tears and stuff paintedon them, or their mouths are painted
(02:20):
into a frown, and I'm like, why is it a sad clown?
It's like a depressing hobo clown orsomething, And I don't know how to
feel. I think the only thingworse is mimes, because they refuse to
talk to you. I like Ican handle mimes, can you, Like,
for whatever reason, the mime makeupand the mime what would you call
it miming? Yeah, like it'snot a spiel. I can't think of
(02:42):
the word, like whatever, they'restitch. Yes, their stick does not
bother me as much. I don'tknow. I've never actually seen a mime
in person, so I guess Idon't really have a fair comparison because I
don't think I've ever walked through thecity and just seeing somebody being a mime,
I'd probably be interested and kind oflike, I would be intrigued,
what are they doing? I'd beintrigued. They're gonna get stuck in a
(03:05):
box. They always get stuck ina box. It's the life of a
mime. Well, yeah, that'sthe quintessential my move. Maybe Gacy should
have gone with being a mime andhe wouldn't have gone down this dark path.
He certainly should have been kept ina fucking box. Yeah, he
should have been stuck in a box, and he ends up stuck in a
box for the rest of his life. So at least there's that true.
(03:27):
But so, his full name,like we were saying, was John Wayne
Gacy, junior, and he's alsoknown as the killer clown right good,
you know clown? Yeah, yeah, you almost don't even have to put
killer in front of it. No, you get the message. So he
was born on March seventeenth, SaintPatrick's Day in nineteen forty two, to
(03:50):
John Wayne Gaycy Senior and Marion ElaineRobinson. And Gaycey had two siblings,
both of which were sisters, andhe was the middle child an older sister
and a younger sister. Okay.Gacy grew up in Chicago, Illinois,
and was described as having an unremarkablechildhood, which is unremarkable except for the
(04:12):
fact that his father was an abusivealcoholic and a lot of other shit happened.
I hate it when they say that. Yeah, I hate it when
they say that. I hate whenthey say, like, oh, his
childhood was unremarkable because it makes youthink like, oh, he had a
completely normal childhood. No, gettinghim beat by your parents on the regular
because they're alcoholics. It's not anormal childhood and can cause some serious trauma.
(04:33):
It just depends on how the personinternalizes it. Oh yeah, yeah,
what are they internalizing it? Arethey externalizing it? And you know,
did anybody have like a normal childhood? Was anybody like not fucked up
at some point somehow by their LikeI feel like it's impossible as a parent
not to screw up your kid alittle. Well sure, but the way
(04:54):
I would kind of think about that, like, I'm sure I have some
friends like their parents it's fucked up, But it wasn't this lasting damage and
this lasting trauma kind of fuck up. It was just like, man,
they yelled at me once took thingsa little too far with being upset,
like Matt life altering exactly, butlike exactly. But yeah, I guess
(05:14):
it would also depend if your parentslike blow up all the time or just
you know sometimes like because it's easyto like be like, oh, well
that's not normal behavior and obviously they'reupset or yeah whatever. But I mean,
if you're just getting constantly like braidedand beaten and stuff like that,
that's not going to beat that's nota normal childhood, I know, perfectly
(05:36):
average childhood. No, he didnot. He did not in more ways
than one. So there are reportsthat Gacy Senior not only verbally and emotionally
abused his children, but also physicallyabused them and Gacy's father liked to taunt
his only son by calling him asissy. Toxic masculinity, Jesus, that's
(06:01):
like the whole nineteen forties to nineteensixties. You don't masculinity. It's so
ridiculous, it really is, becauseas a like, as a human,
all humans, regardless of gender orhow you identify or whatever, we all
have fucking feelings. Yeah, everybodyhas fucking feelings. And if you can't
talk about your feelings because you're notallowed to because society says, you know,
(06:24):
oh, you're just being a pushyyeah, like yeah, yeah,
that can that can fuck you up. Well yeah, and it sends a
message. It sends a message you'renot supposed to behave that way, and
so you need to hold all ofthat shit in or be aggressive because that's
the other thing that's allowed if you'remale. And then you're you're you know,
you're in a relationship and you're frustrated, but you're not allowed to talk
(06:45):
about your feelings and stuff, sothen you just take it out on somebody
else. Yeah you know what Imean. And it's like, I'm perfectly
fine with you crying, Oh yeah, with you, like everybody cries everybody,
like, why is this a thing? Like we all have tear ducks.
They're there for a reason. Like, it's not like they've been removed
from the people with the X Ychromosomes or something selectively. Right, it's
not like you're I mean, youare biologically different, but not in that
(07:09):
way. Yeah, not in termsof emotions now, that is more socialized
to be different and to be calledlike a sissy by your father, who
is like the only other man inthe house because he has two sisters,
right, one older, one youngeryea, and a younger sister. He's
targeting his son. So you havethree women and then the one man of
the house who's then calling you asissy and like you're not living up to
(07:31):
you know, what he defines asa man. Yeah. Well, and
have we talked about toxic masculinity onhere before? No, I don't think
so. Really, Okay, Iwant to quickly just try to dispel I
don't want people to hear that andnot understand what it means, because I
have seen where people post online alot about like getting angry about the term
(07:53):
toxic masculinity because I don't think theyunderstand it. Yeah, So let's see
if I can be is sinct aboutthis, God help me. I'm not
good at that. So toxic masculinity, it's not saying that men are toxic.
It's not saying that men are bad. It is not saying anything about
men. It's saying something about societyand how like reinforcing toxic masculine behaviors like
(08:18):
aggression, like holding in your feelings, like being really independent and not seeking
help. That's what that is.It's a phenomenon. It's not about men
in general. No, it's aboutthe socialization of men. Yeah, And
it's about like the restriction on menfor their feelings and stuff like that,
because, like I said, everybody'sa fucking human and everybody has feelings.
(08:41):
You know, if you call somebodyan asshole, they feel it just the
same. You know, they maynot show it, but and that's the
problem is that they're not allowed toshow it. So then you know,
then you get into like passive aggressivebehavior because it's got to come out somehow.
Yeah, well, and displaced aggressionand anger that's not actually hitting the
right target anymore, and it's justlashing out and it's like overall just super
(09:05):
unhealthy for us. As a society. Toxic masculinity has nothing to do with
like, oh I'm down with thepatriarchy men like, No, not saying
any of that. Just like thatpressure on men, just like the beauty
standards and pressure on women. Yes, affect how we grow up and affect
how we learn, how to dealwith our emotions, talk about our emotions
(09:28):
and interact with other people. Andyou know, if we're constantly repressed,
you know. So yeah, toxicmasculinity isn't like, oh, men suck,
Yeah, but you do. No, I'm just kidding. Everyone sucks.
This is what the should about.Humans suck, like in general,
all over the board, humans suck. Yeah, a little bit. So
let's see. So even though hisfather would taught him, his mother and
(09:54):
sisters were actually there to kind ofhelp buffer this cruelty, and they appear
to have been much more loving.They would refer to Gaysey as Johnny,
and that was kind of this affectionatenickname they gave to the young boy.
So they were nice, yeah him. They didn't like make it worse.
No, they didn't engage in theabuse. They didn't engage in the taunting.
So they were there to help kindof buffer some of the cruelty side.
(10:18):
Note, this is probably why hedoesn't kill women. True, good
point. Well, yeah so,and there's a whole string of just shit
that happens to this poor guy whenhe's a kid. And yes, I'm
saying poor guy, he is stilla bastard. Well you can feel unfortunate
for like what he went through.Yeah, what he went through made him
who he is exactly, you knowwhat I mean. So, like you
(10:39):
don't want anybody to have to gothrough that. But also, don't fucking
kill people. Yeah, no,don't kill people. Got to draw a
line somewhere, don't don't do badthings to other people. Yeah. So,
at the age was just six yearsold, Gaysey's father, likely looking
to further punish and torment his onlyson, shot and killed his dog simply
because the boy had upset him yearsold. Oh that's I mean, that'd
(11:03):
be traumatizing at any fucking age.But that's so awful because like the emotional
attachment that we have with animals,especially as children, and especially if he's
like, you know, getting theshit beat out of him and his dad,
like his dog is probably one ofhis only friends, you know what
I mean. And then to manthat's that's sick anytime I hear because I
(11:24):
think there was another like serial killeror something that his dad like slaughtered his
like pig in front of him orsomething like that. Yeah, you're a
bad person. You're a bad person, and you made a serial killer,
so you should feel good about that. Feel good about that, sir.
Yeah, well that was like theCatherine Knight episode you did, because didn't
she kill his puppy? Yeah?Yeah, yeah, her husband's or her
(11:48):
boyfriend's puppy. She was a littlebit off the rails. Yeah, I
guess, yeah, just a littlebit. But I mean it makes sense
because they're targeting anything that you havean attachment too. They just want to
hurt you. And animals are easy, especially dogs. They're so sweet,
I know, they just want love. And then you come at him like
(12:09):
that, you know, rude.Yeah, and it gets worse, of
course. So at nine years old, Gaycy experienced even further trauma when a
friend of his father's sexually abused him. I don't know if this was a
one time occurrence or if it happenedmultiple times, but we can see where
the abuse and trauma is already compoundingand what is still a very young age
(12:33):
for him. And I can imaginethat even if he tried to say something
or tell his father, his fatherwould have believed his friend over his sissy
son. Oh yeah, well,and he probably would have looked further down
on his child or probably would havesaid that gays like because if it's another
man, yeah, especially that,especially especially like and you have to imagine
(12:56):
that, like this guy who's callinghis on a sissy, Definitely it's probably
homophobic. He's just just a lot. Oh god, So I can only
imagine, Yeah, he shot adog. He's a bad person. I'm
just going to attribute every bad qualityto this name at this point. You're
just You're just a bastard. Yeah. So, outside of this trauma,
(13:16):
Gacy actually seemed like a normally developingchild and teen. So during his younger
years, he worked various part timejobs to help the family, and again
this was not unusual for young boysduring the forties, fifties, and sixties.
So he worked as a newspaper deliveryboy as well as a bagger at
a local grocery store, and hewas also active in the Boy Scouts,
(13:37):
and it's reported that he seemed likea just overall a well adjusted child to
his teachers, despite struggling a bitin his schooling. I'm wondering at what
point this like breaks off into destructivebehavior, because so far it seems like
he's just like kind of taken thepunches, Yeah, and just kind of
going with the flow. Yeah,he's somehow he's managing. It could be
(13:58):
that he's repressing a lot, whichI'm sure he is, but functioning.
He's still functioning very well right inthe outside world. Additional stressors in Gaysey's
early years revolved around his physical health, as there are reports of various significant
health issues and physical traumas in hischildhood. At the age of just five
(14:20):
years, he started experiencing seizures andwas prescribed in epilepsy medication to treat this
condition, and then tied to thiswhen he was ten years old. He
ends up being officially diagnosed with psychomotorepilepsy and would experience random fainting episodes related
to this condition. That's not goingto help his father's opinion of them poor
(14:41):
guy. Yeah, Well, andif he's taking it seriously, if he's
adding stress while he's seizing, likeI just I can only imagine what his
reaction would have been. To seeingthat in his sissy son, seeing his
sissy son faint. Yeah, I'msure, yeah, only he probably just
got beat as soon as he wakedup, waked up or a wild god
(15:01):
woke up, Oh my god,waked it from his seat seizure. So
I'm gonna just briefly describe what psychomotorepilepsy is. So it's also known as
temporal lobe epilepsy, and it's atype of partial seizure in which a person
may have a fixed stare, beunaware or confused about what is going on
around them, yep, have fumblingwith their fingers or lip smacking movements.
(15:26):
And it lasts about thirty seconds toa couple of minutes. So it's it's
not a full seizure. It's notlike a Grand Mall seizure. It is
something where they may just seem reallyout of it and then they're back.
So it's harder. It's much harderto diagnose because of that. Interesting,
Okay, so he's dealing with that. And as if the seizures weren't enough,
there are even reports indicating that thisis going to pique your interest.
(15:50):
Laura Gacy suffered from a head injurywhen he was just eleven years old.
Sol is a hand injury. It'salways and it's always a fucking swing set.
This again, was a swing setsituation, so he was playing on
the swings. A swing hits himin the head. After the injury,
and this was something new that Ihadn't heard about with other killers or criminals
(16:11):
who had a head injury, Gacystruggled with blackouts. Blackouts are never good.
It's not it's never good. Theseblackouts continued for five years, and
he had a blood clot that hadformed in his brain. Whoa, and
it went undiscovered until he was sixteen. So he went from eleven to age
sixteen with a blood clot blackouts froma head injury. He could have fucking
(16:34):
died instantly at any moment. Ablood clot in your brain, Well yeah,
I mean, thank god. Iguess he wasn't driving a car yet,
maybe blacking out of the wheel.I mean, honestly, comparatively to
how he wound up, probably wouldhave been better off that way. Yeah,
block as it wasn't somehow like abust full of thirty three children or
something. Yeah, because it endsup being like thirty three victims. It's
(16:59):
like Oh, thank god. Hewasn't driving a car. Maybe he should
have been. Maybe he should haveprobably could have saved a few Maybe he
should have been driving a car withhis dad in it and they just both
kicked off. Yeah, hit atree. Nobody else is injured. That's
interesting. It's always a head injury. It always a head injury. It's
something, man, it's always it'sa head injury. And it seems like
(17:22):
there's also a lot of early traumaabuse, trauma, trauma, bullying.
It's always like but there's always likea head injury thrown in there, like
the person would have been like,okay, but then you know the trauma
plus a brain injury everything else bam. Yeah, it's just everything builds and
builds. So he was able toundergo treatment. Once they finally diagnosed the
(17:47):
damn clot and the blackout ceased.He treated the clot, he's good to
go with no more blackouts at leastnow. Blackout means like that's not the
same as passing out right. Blackoutjust me that you don't remember. It
can mean passing out. I wonderif he was actually like passing out or
just not remembering spaces of time likelosing time. I'm not exactly sure,
(18:11):
so even more health issues would followfor Gacy. So, he has a
ton selectomy at the age of fifteen, and he begins experiencing sharp stomach pains
soon after this, and while he'sat the hospital recovering from the ton selectomy,
doctors determined that he actually had aruptured appendix that probably would have killed
him without any treatment. He livedthrough quite a bit, he did so.
(18:37):
There are also reports that he sufferedfrom chest pain throughout his teenage years,
and this would eventually be diagnosed asthe very vague non specific heart ailment
when he was seventeen years old.Non specific heart ailment, that's basically a
document way of telling you, Idon't know what's wrong with you. There
should be a code that can beput in for I don't know what the
(19:00):
fuck is going on. That isit? This is non specific cart ailment.
Yeah, yeah, that's the cardiacversion of it. There's probably like
non specific gas trick ailment. Wedon't know, non specific head ailment.
Yeah, it's just as we don'tknow. We know that your heart hurts.
Yeah. Yeah, it's like Iguess at least they believe him.
(19:21):
I mean it's a medical diagnosis versusYeah, like but the versus conversion disorder,
which they love to give to femaleswho were experiencing pain that they can't
pinpoint. That's another episode maybe.So this condition would make it difficult for
Gaysey to lead a normal adolescent life. He couldn't run around, he couldn't
(19:41):
be as carefree as his peers becausehe had a heart condition. He had
to be careful. Yeah, wellhe had a heart condition. He had
epilepsy they had to treat. Hehad a lot going on. All of
this seems to have been happening aroundthe same time Gaysey was realizing he was
attracted to men, So fifteen sixteenseventeen, starting to kind of realize he
(20:03):
has these desires and this was anattraction he would struggle with and keep hidden
for basically the rest of his life. Which is a sad a sad reality
of how like suppressing things can cango badly because it's not like he like,
he's not going to tell his fatherthat, oh God probably kill him.
Yeah, that's unfortunate. Yeah,just accept people for who they are.
(20:26):
Got yet, Yeah, it's likekilling people. It's hard enough for
people to come out today. Ican't even imagine what it was like in
the forties, fifties, Oh can'tawful just I mean, you could be
killed. Oh yeah, you couldbe arrested up to a certain point.
I don't remember when that stopped.But you could be put into mental institutions.
I don't remember when that stopped either. But homophobia was or homophobia being
(20:52):
being gay, it was considering amental health. Yes, yeah, we
had a diagnosis for it up untilI want to say the sixties maybe,
I think so, Yeah, somethinglike that. So it doesn't surprise me
that he wouldn't tell anybody, itwouldn't ever admit it. Yeah, unbeknownst
to most of his family and peers, some peculiar behaviors were starting to take
(21:14):
shape at a very young age forGaycy. So, for starters, he
was caught with his mother's panties ona few different occasions. Well weird.
First time this happened, the sevenyear old gay Sy was subsequently disciplined by
his father with a whipping naturally,which I'm imagining is just a very harsh
beating and physical abuse. Yeah,oh for sure. Yeah. The second
time he was caught with his mother'sundies he was eleven years old and his
(21:38):
mother punished her son by making himwear her panties to school that day.
Oh, that's maybe don't do that. Maybe that's not the right, of
course, off make him wear them. It reminds me of when a parent
catches their child with a cigarette andmakes them smoke the whole pack. It's
like, nah, it's like,I get that you're trying to teach a
(22:00):
lesson, but I'm pretty sure that'sprobably they're both physically and mentally damaging.
Yes, well, and with smokingcigarettes, it's like nicotine addiction. Hello,
you want me to smoke the wholepack? Okay, you're going to
foster this addiction for me. IfI only snuck one for the first time,
I might have been like this asdisgusting, never done it again.
(22:21):
And he was caught with women's underwearat least one other time. I don't
know how many times total he mayhave taken women's panties, but at least
one other time He's caught at theage of fifteen years old. But this
kind of creepy fascination with women's panties. I don't want to overstigmatize it because
I know there are fetishes that existthat are perfectly healthy. Yep, but
(22:42):
your mother's panties, it's a littleweird. It's a little weird. It's
a little weird. I guess fora kid, that's the only access point
they might have. I mean seven, okay, eleven, yeah, fifteen,
fifteen, Like, yeah, maybeshould not be stealing our mother's underwear
anymore, because God alla knows whathe's doing with them. And I know
(23:03):
those have been on your mom's vagina. They're like an unhealthy attachment you're forming
to mom because she's the only safeperson in your house other than your siblings,
right right, Hey, guys,we're gonna take a very quick break,
so enjoy these ads and we'll beright back. So the panties aren't
(23:33):
the only bit of troubling behavior.So at nineteen years old, Gacy ends
up leaving Chicago, so leaving hisfamily home, and he moves to Las
Vegas, where he obtains work asan EMS worker. Okay, but that
is very short lived because his employerslearn he's only nineteen, and I guess
at the time, nineteen is tooyoung for this position. So he's removed
(23:56):
from this post and he's reassigned towork as a janitor for a local mortuary.
Oh yeah, no, forgive theserial killers access to the morgue.
Yes, yes, budding serial killerwith access to dead bodies. So the
new work environment affords him time toplay around a bit more, as he
(24:17):
would later confess that he began experimentingwith the dead bodies and that he had
learned the entire embalming process. Imean doesn't surprise me. I mean,
if you're working in a mortuary,I'm imagine it's just you know, a
sequence of certain chemicals and yeah,things like that. When do they the
pink juice or is that something else? Is that what they used to call
euthanasia stuff? No, that pinkslime. That's what's left over from Hamburgers
(24:42):
floor of un processing fun places.Pink slime. No, but like I
can, because you have to drainthe body of fluid. Yeah, then
you have to, like it's awhole process. No, No, I
can't imagine. Glad people do it? Not for me? Well, yeah,
definitely, definitely not for me.So there are also reports that Gacy
(25:06):
would climb into the caskets to quoteunquote try them out, and he attributes
this to just simple curiosity. He'sjust curious. Um, I mean I
can't say that I wouldn't climb intoa coffin and might they look very comfy,
probably a cool place to take anap, as long as somebody doesn't
lock it. Well, yeah,somehow I get locked in there, Like
I'd have to be one hundred percentcertain that ship wasn't going to close on
(25:30):
me. But like with the casketopen and you're working at a mortuary,
like I'm just gonna go lay ina casket for a little, a little
nappy nap, I can't say Iwouldn't do it. Yeah, I might
try it to. Like to me, that was a little less troubling.
I guess it was more like,Okay, what's his intention in doing this?
And if it is just simple curiosity, the playing with the dead bodies
is a big no no. Yeah. So yeah, that's the part that
(25:53):
concerns me, is is touching ofdead bodies and stuff when he's a janitor
at a mortuary and not a mortician. Tan, he's still pretty damn young.
He's young. He's not a mortician, he's not a coroner. He's
a janitor who has learned the entireembalming process. Yeah, has more access
to these things than he should have. It sounds like, yeah, yeah,
(26:17):
So this curiosity and experimentation would ultimatelylead to his termination from the job
after his supervisor discovered the clothing ofdeceased individuals lying next to the caskets in
the mortuary. I don't know whatthat means in terms of what he was
doing undressing the dead people. Iguess he was interested. They were interested.
Oh no, it's a mortuary,so that means that they're getting prepared
(26:41):
for viewings and stuff. Yeah,so maybe he is. Maybe they're already
getting in the casket or preparing themfor the casket, and he's taking off
their clothes, So he's molesting deadbodies. I don't know. I don't
know. We'll suffice it to sayit was bizarre and unsettling enough that he
was fired. So I feel likeif if I ran a mortuary, i'd
(27:02):
probably fired the guy who is well, he's a janitor too, Like I
keep I guess I keep forgetting thatpoint. That's that's the main issue.
Yeah, is that, like you'resupposed to be cleaning the place, not
touching any of the dead people.Yeah, or their things, their belongings.
Or their belongings. Yeah, thecaskets. Yeah, we're so jobless
(27:23):
and likely experiencing financial struggles. Gacyreturned to his hometown of Chicago that same
year, So he wasn't out inVegas very long, doesn't doesn't surprise me.
He couldn't cut it. Yeah,no, no, a little too
weird. Outside of these weird behaviors, Gacy's young adult years included college coursework
at Northwestern Business College, despite neverhaving graduated from high school. He didn't
(27:47):
get his ged yet. I don'tunderstand he somehow took coursework at this business
college. It sounds like he's prettygood at like pretending that he's older.
And yeah, it probably wasn't checked, like super crazy. Yeah, something
fell through the cracks or they allowedpeople to take coursework for non credit.
That's possible. I know you cando that. That's possible. I have
no idea. So he also hasa successful career in sales and management.
(28:12):
He's kind of doing pretty good despitethe weirdness. He was very involved in
the political world as a volunteer withthe Democratic Party and also served as an
active member of the JCS and thisis a national leadership and Civics group.
So he's in the community. Heis making a name for himself networking.
(28:33):
Okay, interesting, and as manyof you already know, Gacy was also
very much down to clown as hisalter ego, Pogo the Clown, but
he doesn't actually end up creating Pogountil he's thirty three years old. I
didn't realize that. I didn't realizeit was I didn't realize that either.
Kind of Well into his criminal career, it was not a common for Gacy
(28:55):
to be dressed in full clown suitand clown makeup at charity events or local
children's parties, and he even volunteeredto visit and cheer up the children at
the local hospitals. So like,on the surface, he seems like a
pretty good guy. They always do. They always seem Yeah, oh,
take Blundy's so attractive. Huh sohe murders you, Oh gosh. Yeah,
(29:19):
they're good at leading kind of thisdouble life. A lot of them
not at all. A lot ofthem are good a leading kind of that
double blue. Yeah. Some ofthem are like, you're like, oh
damn, he's awkward. Everyone sawit coming. He's a serial killer.
Yeah, he necessarily killer. He'sgot dead bodies somewhere, So it wouldn't
be long before Gacey was in troublewith the police, however, as his
(29:41):
deeply repressed sexual desires started weighing onhim, and in nineteen sixty four,
at the age of twenty two yearsold, Gasey got married to Marlon Myers.
And this just so happened to bethe same year that Gasey would experience
his first sexual encounter with another man. Well besides the abuse, yeah,
besides the abuse. So his firstconsensual volition. I'm gonna I'm gonna question
(30:06):
if it's consensual based on the ageof some of his oh future lovers,
so to speak. But yeah,well I guess consensual on his part.
Yes, he's initiating. This issomething he is finally initiating and not being
done to him. So Gaysie's marriageto Marlin. Her name is Marlin.
It's not Marylyn. It's Marlin,and I hate it. Marlin like the
(30:29):
fish and it's not Marylyn, Marlin, it's Marlin. Doesn't surprise me for
some reason. I'm married to afish, Marlin, mars my name's Marlin.
Yeah, it's not even a woman, it's a fish. He married
a fish. You married a fish. So Gasie's marriage to Marlin may have
just been away for him to keepup appearances, as he was not at
all out in terms of his homosexualdesires and likely still in denial about these
(30:53):
desires himself. But yeah, butdespite the nature of the marriage, it
wasn't long until Gacy joined the familybusiness. You see, his father in
law just happened to own a coupleof KFC restaurants in Iowa, and it
wasn't long before the father in lawrequested that Gaycy relocate to Iowa to help
manage three of these KFC's. JohnWayne Gacy managed KFC's oh yeah, oh
(31:18):
yeah boy fuck fun little fact here, Gacy's last meal in prison just so
happened to include a bucket of originalrecipe KFC reget There was other shit too,
but um regional recipe. I'm notgonna lie I eat that. Yes,
I know that they mistreat their theirchickens. It's not gonna be the
last meal. Yeah no, no, it's not gonna be the last peal.
(31:38):
But I also eat KFC. Althoughquick KFC story, Like, my
mom and I didn't eat there fora long long time because like when we
first ish moved down here to Georgia. Like, I went in and my
mom was like, oh, getcatch upp and since those little wooden containers,
you know that, like whatever,I stuck my hand into, get
(32:00):
catch up, and the wood movedand there were just cockroaches a plenty,
just gittling everywhere. And my momhas not eaten KFC since I had a
restaurant have an A plus health healthrating. I don't remember. I don't
remember. I was really young,but like I was like, stick your
(32:21):
hand, and I was not afan of bugs. Oh yeah, already
had an issue. Yeah, becauseyou don't like butterflies either, I don't,
so you're definitely not gonna like cockroaches. No, I don't like any
bugs. I hate them. Yeah, no, anything most things that can
fly at me, I'm not okaywith. I'm cool with butterflies, ladybugs,
pe on you. I'm not coolthough. Oh yeah, I don't
(32:42):
like them, pepe, microscopic peak. I don't like any of them.
So he managed KFC's So Cool KFCs. He loved that KFC fried chicken,
he loved the Colonel Shanders meat,and upon agreeing to the request from his
father in law, Gacy and Marlinend up relocating from Illinois to Waterloo,
Iowa that same year they're married.There's a lot of shit happening very quickly,
(33:07):
and the two would end up havinga couple of children together in the
next couple of years. Michael andChristine. That's probably about all I'm going
to say about them. Yeah,and this marriage was not built to last,
of course, the prize Gacy's wife, Marlon, would request a divorce
in nineteen sixty nine after her husbandwas arrested and charged with sodomy that year
(33:29):
before. I mean, fair,you know, I'd probably be pretty upset
about that too. Yeah, butI still kind of feel bad for him,
I know, because I mean,this is obviously just not the life
that he wanted, weren't deserved,you knows. As a child, No,
he didn't do anything wrong. Itwas just born into the wrong family
(33:52):
in decade potentially with being homosexual,and very much born into the wrong time.
So two years prior, in nineteensixty seven, Gasey assaulted a sixteen
year old male, but was unsuccessfulin his attempts to take things further.
So sixteen year old, yes,too young. I don't think he went
into it trying to assault. Ithink he wanted to initiate sexual contact,
(34:16):
didn't know how, and the kidresisted. I mean, he's a kid,
which his right to do, andhe's a fucking kid, and I
think this is what led to theassault charge. I see, Okay,
And despite this, Gacy ends upgoing on to form a club for the
male employees at his workplace, soat the KFC's, and even enters into
(34:37):
a sexual relationship with another sixteen yearold boy, who eventually tells his father
what's going on. And this incidentis reported to the police in March nineteen
sixty eight, and this is whenhe's charged with sodomy and May of that
same year. Maybe don't go aftersixteen year olds, yeah, I guess
(34:57):
if he's working at a kif Seethough, that's a lot of young like
teenagers who work at fast food restaurantsand stuff. So yeah, and Mail
still male at this point because girlsaren't his thing really working. Yeah,
so he's got his pickens of youngmales right now. And of course he
initially claims that the relationship was mutual, which maybe in his mind it was.
(35:19):
However, sixteen year old boy,twenty five year old man can't give
consent, not a thing. Idon't know if the age of consent was
ever sixteen back in the day.It's possible. However, it's still a
nine year age difference. It depends. It depends on the age of majority
in the state. So if you'reif it's a seventeen year age of majority,
then yes, but if it's eighteen, you gotta be eighteen. Interesting,
(35:43):
I always just assume it's eighteen forsexual relationships. Well, should just
draw the line at eighteen for mepersonal? I mean, unless of course
you're like seventeen and nineteen or yeah, there are I think fourteen and sixteen
is okay. If the two partsparties are fourteen and sixteen, they're teenagers,
yeah, you know what I mean, like they're teenagers, they're in
(36:05):
the same school. Like you know, you have kids who are you know,
within this four year age range ofeach other. But like anything like
like outside of that, well,like fourteen and seventeen I think in some
states is too far. Yeah,seventeen is getting a little too old.
There's I don't know all the statutorylaws, but it's just that it's the
gap, honestly. Yeah, becauselike fourteen and fourteen, they're both fourteen,
(36:30):
you know what I mean, Butlike fourteen and seventeen, fourteen and
eighteen, you're you're getting like alot more mentally mature. Yeah, and
there's a lot more room for likemanipulation and things like that. So yeah,
it's just very different developmental trajectories atthat point. Yeah. Although he's
claiming, you know, initially thatthis is mutual, he fails multiple polygraph
examinations and eventually he pleads guilty thatsame September. Okay. At his sentencing,
(36:55):
the judge orders Gaycy to undergo apsychiatric evaluation where and it is determined
he meets criteria for antisocial personality disorder. What is antisocial personality disorder? That's
the one most criminals and serial killersget diagnosed with or have. So when
we say someone's a sociopath, typicallymeans they have this disorder. Gotcha?
Okay, So and here's a littlesnapshot of what that means. So,
(37:20):
individuals diagnosed with ASPD antisocial PD typicallylack empathy and at times will show blatant
disregard for the rights and feelings ofothers. They have difficulty forming intimate relationships,
and tend to be impulsive, reckless, manipulative, exploitative, deceitful,
hostile, and or irresponsible. Andso to put it a little more simply,
(37:40):
they don't operate from the same perspectivethat mentally healthy and interpersonally able individuals
do. I gotcha. So theirdecisions are almost solely guided by self fulfillment
and are not concerned with the wellbeing of others. So it's like narcissism
to like another level of like towhere like you disregard other people's like human
rights and like basic personal space orlike just everything, like you see somebody
(38:07):
as nothing. Yeah, it's likeit's personal and social just I don't care
about society standards. I don't careabout other people's well being or need for
safety and boundaries. Okay, andthis is interesting. So rules are important
only in situations where they must followthese rules or face punishment. So like,
(38:28):
they can follow the rules they knowenough about their cognizant of the fact
that social are in place, sometimesin more extreme environments, so like socially
they won't really follow them. Butlike if they're in prison, or if
they're in a structured environment like schoolor military or work, they can follow
these rules. They can kind oftow the line because they know they don't
(38:50):
want to face the punishment. Butit's not because they think they should follow
the rules. It's just a wayto avoid punishment. There's no bearing of
like, oh, I shouldn't dothis because it's bad. Yeah, it's
I shouldn't do this because I'll getarrested. Yep. So yep. So
if they can break a law orrule and get away with it, they
will, right, But they canand here if need be for at least
(39:13):
a certain amount of time. Yeah, it to some extent, and like
that's why some of these individuals thatare so far on that spectrum of antisocial
PD confunction to a point in society. Ted Bundy Gacy would also receive a
ten year sentence for his crime,and he would be housed at the Iowa
State Reformatory while serving his time.In addition of news about the divorce from
(39:37):
his wife, so he's in jailor prison, he gets news that his
wife's going to divorce him, hecould serve. He also learns that his
father has passed away while he's incarcerated. Oh darn, he's so he's not
permitted to attend the funeral. NowThe issue here is he's still very much
I think wanted to make his fatherproud and wanted to earn his father's love
(39:59):
and respect. So I think thisis probably another big stressor snapping. Yeah,
yes, yes, another big stressorthere was another um was the chessboard
killer or no, no it wasje Vida whom dim or go see her
her before she died or her funeralbecause he was incarcerated. Yeah, I
(40:22):
don't see a problem with releasing himto the responsibility of a guard to accompany
him or something to attend the fuckingfuneral. I don't see a problem with
that. Maybe I'm I mean,it's probably because people die a lot.
Yeah, let's be honest, andif you have a prison full of i'd
say immediate family only, Yeah,you know, you don't get to parents,
(40:44):
do cousins or friends? Yeah,shitty as that is, but parents,
children, spouses. We're going togive you a break with this,
and not because they deserve it asmuch as maybe it would not continue to
add to the trauma they've already experienced. That's allowing or contributing to their criminal
career. Yeah yeah, but Imean, like you know, also,
(41:06):
incarceration isn't meant to be like,well, at least not here. It's
not meant to be rehabilitation or reformative, even though it's punitive reform. He's
in a reform at reforming. He'sgoing to reform right into a fucking psycho.
Oh yeah, he does. So. Fast forward to nineteen seventy one.
(41:27):
Gaysey is paroled the year before,So he's out after only serving like
two years of his ten years sentence, and he successfully completes the terms of
his probation, which I think wasfor another year. After he's paroled,
he is now living in Chicago withhis mother, and it started working as
a chef at a local restaurant thatwas frequented by the Chicago PD. So
he spends a lot of his downtimeat work socializing with the police. And
(41:51):
he just so happened to meet adetective Jack Hanley. And this is important
because Gaycey would use Detective Hanley's nameas a means of gaining trial from many
of his future victims. So he'sgonna assume his identity to some extent.
Yeah. This same year, soin nineteen seventy one, Gacy has arrested
for raping a teenage boy. Butthe charges are dropped because the accuser does
(42:15):
not show up for the hearing,so they just road the chargers. That
is often how that happens. Yes, yes, unfortunately that is Yeah,
and that's that's a sad thing aboutmost like rape, but like not most,
but like a lot of rape casesand stuff like that. Is like
if there's no person to press charges, then yeah, they're throwing it out.
(42:36):
They just get to walk free.By this point, Gasey had already
quit his chef job and was doingcontracting work, and he and his mother
actually end up purchasing a new hometogether, but they remained in Chicago,
so they move out of the familyhome purchase a home the two of them,
and this home just so happened tohave quite a large crawl space.
Yeah. Have you ever been ina cross space? Yes, we have
(43:00):
one here. I hate it.I hate it. I like it,
and I hate it. Like it'skind of cool getting under there. I
just don't want to get bit byspider and die under there or the snake
whatever it's living there. My dadtricked me into going into our crawl space
as a teenager because I was outsidedigging a hole and it was really hard,
(43:20):
and we had to get under thereto turn off the water, which
was the thing for it was underthe crawl space under the house, okay,
And he was like, I'll makeyou a deal. He was like,
you crawl in there and go turnoff the water and I'll dig the
hole. I was like, allright, cool, it sounds I can
crawl under there. The whole bottomof our crawlspace was covered in black tarp.
Oh yeah, but over like moundsof dirt, so it looked like
(43:43):
there were like bodies. And I'mafraid of bugs and stuff. So I
get under there and it's all likegross, and there's like webs and stuff.
Yeah, I'm just like scooching throughand everywhere I look just looks like
there are dead bodies buried under AndI used to have this joke that my
dad worked for the FBI or theCIA, because he was such a stoic
and like man a few words,stoic guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(44:04):
And I never really knew like whathe did for work or whatever.
And so I was like, thisis where he keeps all of the buddies
and people he murders. This iswhat happened to his past FBI partners that
rolled him crosspaces are never pleasant.Oh God, Now I was just just
dirt and I love it. Justsee you living under there where Amanda comes
(44:27):
out from the thing. She's havinga panic attack, so she went to
the crawl space. I don't getit either, good place to recover.
Just grow up in the fetal positionand crawl space. Just pass out and
then I wake up feeling better.So things really start to pick up.
Just one year later, so Januarythird, nineteen seventy two, Gacy committed
(44:47):
his first murder when he attacked andkilled Timothy Jack McCoy, who was only
fifteen years old, so very young. He's going for a lot of kids.
He sticks with the young males.I think the age increases a little,
yeah, but it's it's a youngmale thing he's got going. Yeah.
Authorities would later share that Timothy hadstopped off in Chicago just briefly on
(45:09):
his best route home from visiting hisfamily for Christmas. The team was stabbed
to death and would become the firstbody buried in Gaycy's crawl space of his
new home, and this murder wouldbe the first of what would come to
total thirty three murders eventually discovered ateighty two thirteen West Summerdale Avenue, Chicago.
Guys, don't bury the bodies underyour crawl space. Don at your
(45:32):
own home, don't not at yourplace of work. Don't shit where you
eat, like, yeah, nevershit where you eat. Never shit where
you eat. There's a reason therearen't toilets in the kitchen, right,
And I'm better tell you what.A decomposing body smells a lot worse than
a toilet. Yeah, So,although I guess he does know the embombing
process, So maybe does he does, Maybe he knows how to minimize the
(45:54):
stink. Yeah, hey he doessomething to minimize it. Yeah, I'm
sure he does. But that isit for part one of John Wayne Gacy
Junior. Thank you so much forjoining us. If you have any feedback,
you can find us on social mediaor at our website, which is
simply terrible people doing terrible things atWordPress dot com. And remember, terrible
(46:15):
people are everywhere, and you mightjust be one of them, right,
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