March 11, 2024 • 52 mins
We love to start this episode grooving to Brad's "fucking theme song." With Abigail Shrier's bold claims on Joe Rogan's podcast about 'Bad Therapy' as our compass, we traverse the landscape of professional advice—questioning if today's therapists are indeed wrapping the next generation in cotton wool. The journey isn't without its potholes as we scrutinize the notion of 'never' in therapy and take a detour through the Schmugelsphere for a closer look at Shrier's media insights, finding ourselves both enlightened and a tad heartbroken by the revelations.
Remember the days of the Oregon Trail, where you could die of dysentery with just a click? We bring that same blend of historical resilience and digital perils to the table, as we weigh the concept of verbalizing troubles against the silent fortitude of our trailblazing ancestors. It's a ride through the past and present, complete with the iconic game's throwbacks and punk rock homages, all wrapped up in a contemporary debate on mental health practices. So hitch up your wagon and prepare for a fording adventure—just don't fall prey to the same fate as the Donner Party—as we serve up a heartening mix of humor and insight on therapy, resilience, and the enduring strength of the human spirit.
Remember the days of the Oregon Trail, where you could die of dysentery with just a click? We bring that same blend of historical resilience and digital perils to the table, as we weigh the concept of verbalizing troubles against the silent fortitude of our trailblazing ancestors. It's a ride through the past and present, complete with the iconic game's throwbacks and punk rock homages, all wrapped up in a contemporary debate on mental health practices. So hitch up your wagon and prepare for a fording adventure—just don't fall prey to the same fate as the Donner Party—as we serve up a heartening mix of humor and insight on therapy, resilience, and the enduring strength of the human spirit.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is the terribly unablivious podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Yep, I said it before and I'll say it again Life
moves pretty fast you don't stopand look around once in a while
?
Speaker 3 (00:12):
You could miss it.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Yeah, this is Brad's fucking theme song.
I can't play the rest of itbecause we'll get copyrighted.
I didn't hear the first bitbecause that's good, we're
starting because Got a boy backhome in Michigan and it tastes
(00:40):
like Jack when I'm kissing him.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
So I told him that we were all going clubbing in
Chicago.
Dude.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I'll see, oh come on.
Such a, such a banger.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Do you remember that conversation?
Which one?
The one where I was, likeMartin's, having a meltdown.
He was going to Chicago.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
I yeah, you didn't tell me about the Chicago part.
You told me it was melting down.
Do you want to tell theaudience who's here with us
today first, before we just goon to talk and shit about him?
It's another one.
Yeah, it's a fresh app.
It's Martin when we're in thestudio we do studio things.
The elevator.
We're going to Chicago.
Everyone you want to talk aboutall the stress that's been
(01:16):
going on your life, Martin.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I can't.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I mean, I mean we may as well start there.
Brad brought it up.
He threw it into the bus.
Maybe he needs some bad therapy, Bad at love yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I did better help for A little over a year, did you
yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Did you have the same therapist or was it somebody
new?
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I stuck on the same therapist I like.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Are you having stress in your life?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Everyone has stress.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah, you should shake it off.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Oh, that was a.
What a fucking intro.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
You should shake it off.
You know what you should do.
Is that a right hook or is itan uppercut?
You should get over it and moveon.
You know what you should do youshould be resilient?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, yeah, I'm OK.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah.
So for the audience thatdoesn't understand all the back
log of information here, mr JoeRogan had an episode recently
with a Miss Abigail Shrier.
The Shrier, shrier, let's sayShrier, ok, investigative
(02:21):
journalist, columbia Oxford Yale.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
She has those three on her resume, by the way.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
That's great.
Got into some.
Got into some deep thoughts.
That Nothing.
Deep thoughts that yeah,they're a little superficial.
Basically, that therapy ismaking the next generation weak.
Is that is that?
Is that a good?
Speaker 3 (02:46):
summarization Brad, there's not a good summarization
of irrational thought.
Ok but there's a link to thisparticular clip.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah we play a lot of copyrighted material, but we're
not going to risk the Joe Roganbecause that's definitely going
to get kicked off.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
It's about 14 minutes .
They cover that.
You get the real general gistof what she's talking about, and
she has.
This is in her new book calledBad Therapy.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
It essentially says good cognitive therapists will
remove people from therumination of their problems,
versus bad therapists will justsit and talk to you about your
problems over and over again.
It's a little.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
You know what?
That?
That's probably a nice way.
That's a nice way of putting it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I'm not trying to get kicked off the podcast spectrum
quite yet, oh well, I'm justlike.
Joe Rogan was like the Dom, itwas like the Sopranos and he was
like the king.
He just whacked us.
We got whacked all of a sudden.
Buzzsprouts like you're off,you're gone.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Do I not have to listen to another episode like?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
that it wasn't good.
It was really bad.
It wasn't his best.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
This.
This just started the other day, because this is a as we're
talking about it.
It's only a couple days old, Ithink, and so it popped up on
one of my feeds, and it was atwo or three minute clip
initially, and so I, you know, Istarted listening to it and I
didn't get 60 seconds into itand got all kinds of cringe
(04:22):
factors going from it.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
And so I'm really sent it to Dylan.
Case of the yuck.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Case of the yips and what were those yucky yips?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
be I, because we I mean obviously we can't share.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Watch.
Watch the video and then listento this.
And and I tried to write notesdown just so that I could kind
of follow along with her.
It would be much easier to do avideo analysis of this, as, as
they play it and then we respondto it, but we're not really
quite some solid terms of what Imentioned in the video is like
(05:00):
never, which is is is adifficult word, because I mean
when even children say the wordoh, I'd never do that.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
It's like that doesn't pan out right.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Maybe, we have an episode on therapy or denied
that there were any.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
We're going to get.
But isn't that like Jiffy Lou,like we?
Speaker 3 (05:22):
were totally off the edge of that much.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Well, it's their business to change oil.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Exactly.
Can you just stop it?
Exactly, so like okay, it'slisten to it or don't.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Whatever you know, these two didn't listen to it.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
The idea we bits pieces.
This is that false dichotomy.
And you versus them.
Bullshit that.
You fucking it is it is.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
It is me that had to listen to the entirety of this
thing.
I am sad right now.
That's right, I am sad.
Thank you, jordan.
Listen to the, listen to thatlogical fallacy episode before
you watch that 14 minute clipand see if you can pick some
things out, because she hitsquite a few game five of them.
(06:13):
So after getting the, theinitial cringe factor, of course
, I go to the Google.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Oh, what did you find in the Google?
What's this about?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
the Schmugelsphere.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Yes, I did come up with some website listed, like
all of her appearances on media,or is it?
Is it in the notes?
I don't know if I kept that one, but you can kind of guess the
Let me guess.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Okay, you guess.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Martin, guess he was really wrong.
He was like Oprah.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I didn't say Oprah.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I didn't say, oprah Does she still do her favorite
things Does she still do herfavorite things.
I did say I did say KellyClarks.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I said, uh, Newsmax.
And I said, uh, what is it?
O A N news.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Yeah, I don't know.
That is Okay, so that right yougo.
It's not on cable news.
Jordan Peterson Yep, only onetime.
That was about when she wastalking about those, the
transgender, one irreversibledamage, the transgender craze
seducing our daughters.
Hmm, keep going down that road.
You can do it.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
That's all I got, really, the Daily Wire, oh, okay
, well, prager, you JordanPeterson's on the Daily Wire,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Okay, but the Joe Rogan, this is our first
appearance on this one, so then.
So then I do that little, youknow echo chamber thing where
I'm like the Rubin report, ohbitchapiro, she bought a
bitchapiro several times,trigger Nometry, which they're
all they're all the Daily Wire.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
It is.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
So now she's written a new book called Bad Therapy.
And why this?
the subtitle is why, the kidsaren't growing up.
So in this 14 minute clip westart with things.
Like you know, kids need tosuck it up and they need to
shake it off.
And no one tells you to shakeit off anymore.
(08:12):
And it's not just that parentsdon't say it, it's that nobody
says it.
And as me and Martin aresitting here looking at it,
we're like pretty sure, prettysure, we say that a lot and I
don't just say it to my kids, Isay it to kids that I coach too,
get up, let's go.
Yeah, just in the sense that,like, if it's not a big deal,
(08:37):
we're not making it a big deal.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
So Well, in reference to that, though, it's like
there's also, there's also anunderstanding of of when you
parent, and if you make it a bigdeal, then the child makes it a
big deal.
Yes, and if you know how toparent I'm not saying that
people don't know how to parent,but if you test out the waters
(09:00):
around parenting and then yousee your child fall and you kind
of play the dumb card and lookaway, they're not going to cry.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Yes, yes.
So I remember my one of myfriends was telling me example
of a professor that they tookthat to the extreme, so like
when their kid was bleeding he'slike mom, I'm leaking.
So, yes, you do.
You do have some influence onyour account.
I'm not joking.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
This is true?
I'm not joking.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
So the fact that nobody ever says these things to
kids anymore.
Okay, I'm going to say so.
Is parenting different now thanit is in the 1950s?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yeah, yes, in America .
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yes, and was it different in the 1950s than it
was in the?
Speaker 3 (09:55):
1890s.
Yes, yes, it's generational.
Are we just doing math now?
Are we going to do this thing?
Speaker 1 (10:01):
You don't know how to do math.
I've got a math.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
But you can measure things.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
I know how to turn alerts off, it's just getting
that's a window's flaw, that's awindow's flaw.
So basically we get into thisthing where now therapy is a
thing right, and we can get intosome of the logical fallacies
of why this may be an issue.
(10:28):
Now kids don't know how tohandle anything because all they
do is now they're just going totherapy.
They go to therapy all the time.
Okay, so not all kids go totherapy.
Kids don't go to therapy allthe time.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
I don't know a lot of people that go to therapy.
I would say 90% of the people Iknow don't go to therapy, and
30 years ago, therapy wasn't athing like it is today.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Right.
But we also have to understandthat if you have a core group of
friends that is kind of likeyour therapy, no that's your
dumpster fire.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
No, it's not because sometimes your friends are
fucking dumb.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Well, yeah, that is your dumpster fire.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
But there's that dichotomy to that too.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
That's an issue.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
But she's just throwing down the steps, man See
.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
You don't want to do that.
Passion, more passion.
Need more passion.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Football is life.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
So she somehow gets this idea that, if so, this
whole clip you will findhalf-true.
This is why it's dangerous.
You will hear things such aslike yeah, kids need to toughen
up.
Okay, yeah, that's a thing,that's always been a thing.
(11:46):
Like are kids too comfortablenow?
Yeah, sometimes they are, arethey?
Dealing.
It's not just kids, though,it's everybody Right.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Everyone's comfortable.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
So at one point she says she's talking with a
professor, a friend of hers, andshe goes these kids just
they're not confident in doinganything.
Like they're intelligent, theydon't want to run their own
experiments in college.
Like they're intelligent, theydon't want to even get their
driver's license.
You know to like they justdon't think that they're capable
(12:20):
of anything.
She was in the.
The millennials were like this,this group of people that could
do anything, and they createdall of these, these things on
the internet and social mediaand all of this stuff, and it
was just like they could doanything.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
And my first say was the Mark Zuckerberg era.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Mark Zuckerberg is not a millennial.
He's back in.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Yeah, he is Okay, he's got to be.
I don't know, and my firstthought was don't you think that
some of the problems that thekids today are facing are
because of all the shit themillennials created that didn't?
Does that not cross your mindone time?
I'm like, oh yeah, we'redealing with a lot of, like,
(13:03):
anxiety and depression.
Okay, and, and what is new inour culture today that we didn't
have 20 years ago?
Can we not look at those things?
Nope, not a look at thosethings.
Let's look at therapistscomments.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Well, there's more people and with more people we
have more revealing articles ofinformation from the general
population around, like what'shappening versus historically
when we had less people.
There's just not enough mediacoverage around the less people
win.
Less people like like in thenineties, Even before in the
(13:45):
eighties and seventies but thenalso the exposure to information
as well.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
So that's a major part of this discussion is like
if these things didn't exist.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
It's like they've always existed.
It's just about revealing thetherapy has always existed.
To I would say yeah, I meancognitive, behavioral therapy
that is something that I have noauthority is speaking around of
when it was in existence andwhen what was revealed for
(14:21):
existence.
But in terms of therapy itselfand understanding how the human
mind works, has always beensomething that's been intrigued
by people that wanted to studyof how we operate, but not
always.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
What do you mean by always?
You're saying, oh, it's notbeen the modern day idea of
psychology.
How long has that been?
Around 120 years, maybesomething along those lines.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
So why did we used to just ring the bell over the
kids, the babies, and they crythose experiments that's when
modern psychology was involved.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
No, modern psychology had more to do with like
vibrators.
Look at up salivating dogs nothose were two separate
experiments, thank you, okay.
True, though, what was theringing of the babies?
That's fine.
Or like the dead cat in thetrunk, what?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
No, that's a philosophy thing I will say,
like the ringing of the babies.
I'm not too sure.
Maybe.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Dylan might.
First psychology laboratory byWilhelm Wund in 1879 at the
University of Lipsig 1879.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
I will say that in China what they do is they with
the infants.
They whistle to help them go tothe bathroom.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
How Does that follow you all the way through grade
school, middle school, highschool?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
That is interesting yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
They throw whistles out there just so they can all
piss at the same time, so we canget algebra done.
You whistle really loud.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Do you pee your pants ?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
No, I don't, but maybe I could see.
Not in America, no, but maybein China.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Oh, we're going to need a whistle.
Did you do that?
Did you pad?
Now no, oh.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
No, I'm nervous.
Just try it out, maybeExperiment.
What?
What did I do?
Nothing?
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Why do you fucking look at me like that?
All right.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
You need to check your attitude.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
You had a shit show.
You were all excited thismorning and then this is what
you do.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Yeah, this is what I do, or bread moody bread.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah, I hate this podcast.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Well, I don't like it either.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Good, why don't you formalize it?
Then Tell the audience yeah,fuck this show.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
So she quickly compares ruminating on bad
thoughts in your own head totalking about those thoughts to
therapists and that they'reessentially the same thing.
You shouldn't do them, becausethey just bring about more bad
thoughts.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
The more we talk about the bad, the more bad
happens.
Yes, love it.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yeah, you never get it out of your head right?
And we're under the completeassumption that therapists are
total jackholes that do nothingother than sit there silently
and just listen to you talkabout your bad shit.
That's going to be our generalassumption.
Never are you given tools orasked questions or strategies
(17:29):
for dealing with these badfeelings or thoughts.
Right, just shove that shit down.
That is the shoving thefeelings down.
Gets somewhere in the middle ofthis clip they start talking
about the human spirit, and thestory of the human spirit is
(17:52):
that it is resilient and that itovercomes things, and that in
the past, you know people havelost siblings.
Even 100 years ago, it was very, very normal to lose a sibling
at some point in your young life, right, and even you know you
would lose parents at a muchyounger age than you lose them
today, even though people stilllose them.
(18:14):
And the story is that you justcontinue on with life and you're
able to have a family and leada good life, and you just got to
keep going.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Mom Pa made spaghetti .
Tonight we're talking aboutorgan trail.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
I love that game.
Yes, it's very much like organtrail Was organ trail eight bit
or 16 bit.
Please don't dis-tarrie though,because you'll die.
Yeah, 16 bit.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
It was, it was, it was it wasn't, it wasn't 32.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
You want to die?
I think I beat the game acouple of times.
You want to die of dysentery?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
No, I don't want to die of dysentery.
There was a some punk rockgroup wrote a song called
dysentery gig oh, blake 182.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Okay, but you got to get across the river at some
stage.
A couple of rivers, thank you.
Ford.
Ford the Ford River.
Ford the River, mmm Yep.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
No, I don't want the Donner party.
Where do you get so mad?
Brad Early versus the organtrail Right.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
I'm trying so hard to stay focused.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Okay, come on, let's go.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Nintendo Wii has an organ trail, fuck it.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
It's on.
It's on Apple Arcade too 1975is the OG so.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Okay, you go, okay, I , you have some.
You have some processing ofthis Dylan.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Okay, talk to me about it.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
You've lost a sibling .
You should just continue on andpush down whatever feelings you
have about it into your guthole.
Do you agree with her, Dylan?
And live a perfect life and, uh, I don't know, just I don't
know, don't think about it, justdon't think about it.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So I yeah no.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Is.
Is what she is saying possible?
Yes, 100%.
People go.
People, uh, compartmentalizethings and don't think about
things all the time and continueon with their lives like shit
never happened, or they try toforget about all of the bad shit
that ever happened to them, andmaybe I'm just not going to
(20:26):
think about how that couldunconsciously affect any of my
behavior for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
That's fucking bonkers, because like yeah, you
go.
Like World War II, thereturning vets that came back
Got on with their lives.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
They shook it off, martin.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I yeah, yeah, that's you know, you know the fact that
a lot of those guys came backand they weren't right, but it's
not really talked about mygrandpa was a POW and he had a
family and clearly couldn't havelived a better life whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Other than the fact that all of you are fucked up.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
No one says that.
So what she's saying is likeit's the, it's the opposite of,
of, like that continualimprovement, right.
Or it's like no, no, no, no,these guys managed.
Why?
Why can't we just keep managing?
I really don't think about.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
I mean, how did they manage through alcohol?
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Sometimes, and zero grace, and this is my I.
I didn't deal with my sister'sdeath for a very long time and
my I was very numb to the worldfor a very long time.
The highs weren't very high,the lows weren't very low.
I did that for longer than I'llcare to admit, and my level of
(21:59):
patience, my level of grace forthe common person, the really
the only, my only saving gracewas the fact that my parents
ingrained in me that I had to bepolite, so much that that was
really the only thing thatstopped me from being an
absolute shit head in the worldwas that you needed to be
respectful.
I look at it as like a videogame, like um health bar and
(22:25):
it's Brad, you've used thisanalogy before.
It's the people that aredriving home at five o'clock,
totally cracked out of theirmind from stress, that they're
upset when somebody accidentallyturns in their lane without a
blinker and it's like I'm goingto murder that person.
They're the worst human beingin the world, fuck that guy.
There's like it's whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa Things that really
(22:46):
escalate again.
Cars are a whole differentthing.
They're dangerous, they're,they're, they're a loaded weapon
at the end of the day becauseof how powerful they are, but
we've really escalated this.
You have zero grace in your life.
Your bars all the way at left,at zero, you're empty, whereas
if you deal with your issues andyou, I understand what she's
(23:07):
saying, but she's conflating itwith if you go to therapy and
you ruminate and you're notwilling to put in the hard work,
that's a problem.
You're just going to talk andin a cycle without and not
actually putting in the hardwork.
There's something we said aboutthat oh, I go to therapy, I go
to therapy, I go to therapy.
It's like okay, what are youactually doing to solve it,
(23:28):
though?
Are you actually?
Speaker 3 (23:29):
are you actually doing the things that you're
told to be doing, or to you'redoing or well and we've talked
about this too, in terms of like, are you being authentic with
what you're actually or you areyou?
Speaker 1 (23:38):
lying to your therapist because you're
embarrassed, which is a bigthing.
But if you are actually workingon that, grace bar, by the way,
gets bigger and bigger.
It's like leveling up in avideo game too.
It gets longer and longer andlonger and you have a.
The amount of patience andgrace you have for your fellow
man or woman is amazing, and Ithink that's what I've gotten
(24:01):
out of it.
It's like I can sit here andtake so much more because I've
worked on the not piddly stuff,but stuff that's underlying,
that shouldn't affect what I'mdoing right now.
So I have patience for being inthe moment.
Yeah, it's a long way to get tothat Sorry.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
No, no, no, it's good .
Speaker 1 (24:19):
It's good.
So she just grossly throws inthe negative Nancy's.
That are the bad apples that goto therapy and they I don't
discount the fact that there arepeople out there that will talk
about going she that talk aboutgoing specifically after
therapists.
She is, but she's also going,but she's a.
(24:39):
The herd data is being fueledby the people that are the
influencers not the right termthe people that want attention
and they're going to be like oh,I got a therapy, I do this and
this and this, but those are thesame people that repeat their
same negative or their sametoxic behavior over and over and
over and over.
(25:00):
It's like if you were actuallymaking an effort in therapy and
you were going to theappropriate place, you would be
not doing that Like you, you,you, you.
It again doesn't have to be afast train to the repair or I'll
say grace repairs, the wrongword but if you're doing the
(25:21):
same shit over and over again,you're really not working on
yourself and so don't.
But she's using the bad datapoints as her data points.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Definitely that part Um there's.
There's also maybe we talkabout Ted lasso all the time in
terms of like um, there's a lotof good type of therapy involved
in that show.
There's also the show shrinking, which is kind of by the same.
So good.
So, good it's also good, but itit cuts to the point where I
(25:53):
think she's talking about genderdysphoria at one point, cause
she's also written up I'm surewhat is a fabulous book on this
topic and uh, you know she'llhave a.
She'll say there'll.
There'll be like a 12 year oldgirl that comes in and and is
talking to a therapist aboutgender dysphoria.
She goes the therapist neversay like you don't have gender
(26:13):
dysphoria, because that isscientifically proven to only
happen in young boys.
And she's like the therapist,never say like you don't they.
Essentially she's trying to saylike they don't prescribe them
specific actions.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
I don't think you have gender dysphoria.
I will invalidate what you feelit's right there.
You put it in the notes.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
And it's, it's.
It reminds me of the part inshrinking where he kind of gets
to the point where he's like youknow what fuck this?
I'm going to tell thesepatients exactly what I think,
but it's what I mean you'vetalked about before when
interpreting certain parts ofbooks where in the context of
the book it sounds reasonableand when you take it out of
(26:56):
context it sounds a lot morelike I can do whatever the fuck
I want to weaponizing man.
So, and the very last episode iscase in point, yes, Uh, so you,
you don't know how how peopleare going to take things.
And so when it almost soundslike she wants therapists to
(27:16):
prescribe actions for people totake, and you're like, whoa,
okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
That can be, yeah, so vigilante therapy she doesn't
have that psychology degree.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Okay, so that's, she has a law degree from Yale, so
that that sure they're superproud of her.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
That's different, because there's standards and
practices around patients oflike how to help them understand
where they need to go, andstrategies of how to help
improve their lifestyle.
Yeah, mentally yes, and sothat's yeah, that's, that's how
to how to left field.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
So I.
So at one point Rogan says well, did you talk to a therapist
about this?
And she goes oh, I talked to alot of therapists.
Okay, what, what was their take?
What's?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
that.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
What's a lot mean.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, what's the number Does she have any data?
She hasn't read the book.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
And why are?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
you bringing it to us this is because I found it
today.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
That's why this is a half baked episode.
You watched two minutes of thefucking clip that I sent to you
and I'm not leading the chargehere.
I'm leading the charge on thisclip.
Okay, keep going.
I fucking hate this show.
So I'm.
I'm doing research on.
Words are hard bad therapy,right, and there are some things
(28:47):
that uh, uh, so cognitivebehavioral therapy in general,
and then there are specificlines of thinking that you can,
you can go down.
So people have certaintechniques that they can use for
certain situations, right, andthere are certain techniques,
like anything, that uh, peoplewill be like.
Oh I wonder if we try this, Iwonder, I wonder if by, like, uh
(29:11):
, hitting a mouse with a hammer,if it'll run faster, right.
And so there's these thingsthat are created and you're like
, oh yeah, maybe that's not,maybe that's not the best way to
do it, but are there going tobe, like some people that
believe in it, even though it'sa bad idea, like shop therapy?
Oh, I was thinking more likereligion, but but they're so.
(29:34):
You went there, so they're.
They're so that, basically, someof the the literature I found
is like there's about five ishpercent and this is just across
the board of what is reported inthe world of people that go to
therapy and have worseningsymptoms.
Okay, now, if they didn't go totherapy with, their symptoms
(29:56):
get worse anyways.
Yeah, we don't know is whatthey say, we don't know.
So what kind of fucking dataare you basing this on?
That?
This doesn't work.
So you're five percent.
Okay, statistical analysis youguys are better at numbers than
I am, just because of major.
(30:18):
Something works 95% of the timeand I'm going to write a book
on why it's bad Seems legit,okay.
So then they, they go intocomparing.
I mean, basically, therapy islike a snake oil salesman, where
, once you come in, you're nevergoing to leave, and we
literally talked about thiswhere, like our therapists are
(30:39):
asking us are you, is this still?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
beneficial to you at all.
Do you want to come back?
Do you need to come back?
Are you sure you need to behere?
Speaker 3 (30:47):
I mean both of ours have.
So again, are there some badtherapists out there?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yes, Are there some?
Speaker 3 (30:54):
therapists?
That are shitty people.
Yes, there certainly are.
So it's a new profession.
Yeah, any yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
It's the, and I love where it's a generalization.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
You put.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
You put some moral high ground on somebody.
It's like, oh, there's oneperson in this entire group of
people and they're they'resupposed to be held to a higher
standard.
You're like whoa.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
She then goes, goes through and gives examples of
why anxiety and depression aregood for our, for our lives.
You know, and her example wasif I didn't have anxiety, like I
wouldn't have you know I hadanxiety coming on the show and
if I didn't have anxiety, Iwouldn't have prepared and been
ready to do the show.
Yes, that's anxiety.
(31:39):
It's not the same as I haveanxiety all the time about
fucking everything and I have noidea why.
No, those two are the same.
Sure Pressure.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Invited.
There's pressure, did yeah,there's some, there's some
conflation there, yeah.
So you have anxiety about aforward thing your career's on
the line here.
So you have anxiety about someof this, moving the needle
forward Right, whereas otherpeople have anxiety where
they're laying in bed all daybecause they have something.
That means they have no conceptof what is keeping them down,
(32:13):
but the whole world's implodingfor no reason.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
But like depression, you know you, you have a breakup
and you feel sad, and then thedepression You're really sad to
see that.
Yes, thank you, jordan.
You're really sad to see, youknow, that that relationship go
away and and then you get overit and that and that feeling is,
is an accomplishment andwithout that sad feeling you
wouldn't have the accomplishmentfeeling of getting over it.
(32:37):
You know clearly that's thesame as clinical depression.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
She's putting revenge sex in the same category as
clinical depression.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
She's putting a lot of things in the same category
as a lot of things.
So that's rough.
Then then Rogan is like oh,it's like the Jiffy loop, you
don't have to change it every3000 miles.
But we're in the business ofchanging oil.
And she goes yeah, you know it,but eventually you do, you do
(33:07):
have to change your fucking oil.
You do have to change your oil,I mean, so you have to change
every 3000 miles.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
No.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Dylan, how often did you change oil in your Jeep?
Never.
Okay, he doesn't have a Jeep,not anymore.
Jokes on you.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Martin.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Set that up.
No, that's true.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
I'd still have my Jeep so by her, by her analogy
we're the Jeep and if we don'tchange the oil we'll be fine,
Until our engine blows up.
Yeah, Shit hits a fan.
I mean that that actually worksout really well.
So what happened when theengine blows up you?
(33:44):
Die, you know what, andeverybody else that loves you.
They got to get over it, ohgeez.
What it's not my idea.
So off off of the Jiffy loopthing.
Then she's like off off of theJiffy loop thing.
Then she starts talking abouthow you know therapists don't
(34:06):
turn like if you go to atherapist and you're like, hey,
I'm feeling this way she goes.
They don't just say like andI'm not gonna work with you,
which is false.
For one, like therapists, allthe time We'll say like this is
not something I specialize in,I'm not gonna you need to see.
So yeah, like this, let merefer you out.
So one, they do say that.
And for two, like if it'ssomething that they think that
(34:28):
they can help you with, why arethey gonna turn you away?
So it'd be like you know whatpeople that go in bleeding to
the ERs, like the doctors likenever turn them away.
Like yeah, no shit, that'stheir fucking job.
If that's what they do, there'syeah.
So if they can help you,they're gonna help you.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Responsibility to care one thing and also but
there's an oath to that as wellthe to that part, yes, so she.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
She leans Kind of hard on the fact that, like the
what we typically think aboutanxiety and depression are, they
don't constitute real problems.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
So it's fictitious.
Are we in the matrix?
I don't know, dude, just awhich pill are we taking here?
I don't remember we, I thoughtwe went through this one time.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Then she goes into the.
The goal of therapists is totreat the least problematic
patient for the longest periodof time, because that's that's
the best benefit for them,because they don't have to work
very hard and they will justkeep them coming back, and
coming back, and coming back.
Okay, and she says, she says ofone therapist as she talked to
(35:44):
you she's like he said that ISet a number of sessions from
the get-go.
This is for Gen.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Z's right we're talking about, or anyone.
She doesn't qualify.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Mm-hmm.
Okay, that's interesting she is.
She is qualifying that like Gen, not even Z.
There's like a new generationto you, right, like alpha, I
think, generation alpha, all Ican think about is those are
like the little kids Wayne'sworld when you say a new
generation.
I think of some of the ways thatshe's Reasoning in terms of the
(36:20):
way that people thought aboutCOVID.
They're like, if we just don't,if we stop testing for it, like
the numbers will go down.
Just thank you, captain.
Obvious, just like there were.
No, there was no AIDS epidemicbefore we knew what the fuck
AIDS was.
That doesn't mean it didn'texist.
It was there.
Yeah, didn't have a name for it.
(36:42):
So how is this?
Different you guys can me.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Yeah, you fucking look at a man, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
There's just.
There's a lot, so we talk aboutnuances all the time.
There's a lot of fuckingnuances that go into this
problem, yeah there was somebroad sweeping generalizations.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
So we don't have a fentanyl issue.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
What has?
What has changed?
We have a cocaine issue.
It's just being cut withfentanyl.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
What has changed in in our children's minds in the
last 25 years?
Any major developments happenin terms of humanity.
Tell the tubbies that could bewildly different for Growing
minds her um, but I know I can'tthink of any.
Okay, yeah, no, zero, no,nothing.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
I don't know why we just flew.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
No, that was a long time ago 1908 yeah, yeah.
I mean basically, the thingsthat we encounter today are
exactly like they were in 1908and we should think about them
as such 1918, 1920, bummer.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
That was our chasm, by the way.
Yeah, but context-wise, like,of course, the kids that are
growing up today, their exposureto different experiences are
Very much different than ourexperiences growing up, and what
they have in terms of tools andmaterials, yes, so wild.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
There was four waves of Spanish flu.
Oh my god, why can't we talkabout this?
500 million people, about athird of the global population,
and Four successive waves.
Deaths ranged from 17 millionto 50 million.
I'm having a fake depressiveepisode right now good.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
I know it's not real, I'll just go for it.
Let's shake it off.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Why is that?
It's fascinating so.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
They.
They kind of touch on somethings and I'm a bit
disappointed in the non pushbackIn the comments from the host,
mmm, it just Like all three ofus listen to it and almost every
(38:51):
other sentence you're like hitthe pause button, but wait, what
about this?
And he doesn't do that.
Why?
Why would he do that?
Why would he do that?
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
He's an interviewer.
He's not a listener.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Yeah, he's making a shit ton of money right now.
He used to be pretty good at it.
Yeah, he seems to be less so Idon't want to.
The objective is the wrong term, but he seems to be less pushy
than he used to be.
I Don't.
I don't listen to a constantcost to use your work.
(39:29):
You know where's your Show yourwork he's.
He's less show your work thanhe used to be yes.
I, I Think.
So he used to be like whatwords I say, that I, I, yeah.
I was a massive listener of hisyeah and I Agree.
I used to enjoy it because he,it was always show your work,
(39:49):
show your work, show your work,show your work.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
And not only that, but you had, you had a lot of
both sides of you know, and somaybe somebody else will come on
.
That is.
That is very Opposite.
This lady's opinion, mm-hmm, Idon't, I don't know if it's, if
it's really going that way.
It so at one point she'stalking about you know somebody.
(40:14):
Somebody drives by their oldhigh school and you know they.
They claim they can't take thatway anymore because it gives
them PTSD of when they werebullied in high school.
Should have been a nerd and I'mreally sad.
And and he's like yeah, but Imean he goes, I I get like angst
(40:35):
.
I had remember getting anxietydriving by my high school, like
after I was out and just youknow she, what is that?
She's like that's a bad memoryand I'm like okay.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Are we just generalizing?
This is a bad memory.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yeah, what can we get some more definitions on, like
what is teasing?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
bullying memory, ptsd going on.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
She's like that's just a bad memory that you know
you're not handling very well,and in my head I'm like hey, you
know what helps with thatfucking therapy.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
If you don't remember , maybe you've suppressed so far
that you need to really justuntuck that bad boy.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Oh my god it's, it's a lot.
They talk about it Again,modeling it all up.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
They also talk about really good for you, what you?
Speaker 3 (41:20):
know why are we not talking about like you know,
going outside or like exercise,you know exercising is great for
your mental health?
Like, yeah, thank you, fuckingno shit.
What are we in 2024,?
okay, I think we're aware ofthat.
So you're telling me thatyou're not gonna be able to find
any person that Eats well,works out, has a job and has
(41:45):
some sort of major Depressive oranxiety or any other type of
issues going on?
Not, none of those, you know.
I think those people exist.
If they do exist, isn't theproblem a little bit more than
what you're leading it on tobelieve Possibly?
So then they go on to.
Well, you know, we have aluxury.
We have a luxury to think aboutthe things that we do think
(42:08):
about in this country.
If you were in, you know, ifyou were in like a war-torn
country, you wouldn't, youwouldn't be thinking about
anxiety in the same way as wethink about anxiety.
You would have actual anxietybecause you would have bombs
going off all the time.
And I don't really know that,just to the sense that, like,
(42:32):
those little things won't helpyou out, like you know, like
going outside isn't gonna curethat, so like that's a real
problem.
Like yeah, that that is a realproblem.
But then Rogan goes on to say Isay this all the time like the
worst thing that's happened toyou is the worst thing that's
happened to you.
So whether you got in a minorfender bender or you just lost a
(42:54):
parent, like whatever, theworst thing is that's happened
in your life.
That's what you're dealing withand it's like okay.
So didn't you just validatethat point for everybody?
Speaker 1 (43:07):
No, Relativity man Relativity.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
So I mean, I think about this, going to therapy and
like are my problems as bad asother people's problems?
Speaker 1 (43:17):
It's not just equals in C squared man.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
Does shit that happened to me as bad as the
shit that happened to otherpeople?
No, it's not.
It's just that it happened tome and I want to improve it, or
or bury it, I mean whatever.
Well, that's what she's saying.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
You bury it, fuck it, it doesn't matter, you bury it,
though Actually it is equals MCsquared because you bury it.
It's fucking exponentially morepowerful than it is if you just
deal with it.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
Not if it's not a real problem.
What they go find themselves,they shit don't fly on my side.
When I graduated college, Icouldn't tell my father that I'm
gonna go to Europe to go findmyself.
What do you mean?
Go find yourself?
I Found you.
(44:03):
You're right here at my housewhen you gonna go.
It's different you want to seeyou Go look in the mirror, you
got no job.
It's different.
So there there is a sense of itjust is all of these things
we've talked about like, do weneed to self-reflect?
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
She's saying like no, don't do that at all, because
then you get stuck in your headand that's bad for you, to a
point like if you're only inyour head.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Yeah, I disagree with that.
You got it.
You have to do that, you haveto improve.
But also, how do you?
Speaker 3 (44:42):
So she's taking the people that have like clinical
depression, that are not goingto work, that are not talking to
, people that are removing thehelp spells from everything and
they're in their own head for aLong period of time.
Is that healthy?
No, no, it's not healthy.
And she's saying that's whatit's like talking to the
therapist.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
What she makes, some large leaps.
Large, it's quantum.
Yeah, it's a little, so I justit's a little cringy yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
Little major again.
Are there certain things likedoes going outside improve your
mood?
Yeah, yeah, it does.
Just let's do a whole podcastabout forest bathing the other
day, which is also a Japanesething.
What's forest bathing?
Speaker 1 (45:27):
I've heard about mudding, but forest bathing,
forest bathing, okay, one, whatis forest bathing?
Two, what is mudding?
Speaker 3 (45:33):
There's a lot of different terms for that.
What?
Speaker 2 (45:37):
No, muddy, it's from suits.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
But yes, I can't think of the Japanese word.
But muddings, the actualphysiological changes when you
spend time in specific areas andyou watch the trees start to
anything Okay.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
So I got Lord of the Rings, forest mudding or any
snow muddings.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Different it's you go to more of a like a spa and
they have a tub full of Specifictype of mud and you so I'm from
Jennifer would call itgrounding, oh yes, where she she
likes to garden or just diggingthe dirt.
No, no, no, you lay in the mud.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
I know what that is but, but there is a Very
visceral feeling of likeconnecting back with the earth.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
I live in the clouds.
I don't hang out with peasantson earth.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
God, we talk about practice, so Listen to that, you
know.
Check the book out from thelibrary, don't buy it.
What bug.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
Her book.
We're not suggesting this book.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Oh Jesus.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Christ man.
Don't tell them check it out.
Tell them look at the clip.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
Okay, so to In ending of this, like I mean we've got
links up the ass over here.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
I want therapy causes harm.
Yeah, what is this?
Yeah, it's from 2008.
This is wow.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Oh, what I?
The list of of available thingswas not long for this list of
harmful therapies.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
What do we have for harm with the third harmful
therapies?
Speaker 3 (47:31):
Yes now you're just reading and you're not saying
any about loud, which is nothelpful.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
Against the backdrop of a parent ignorant.
Scott Lennon fell, theprofessor of psychology at Emory
University in America.
But professional sensitivity isthe one side.
Last year and use currentresearch findings to propose a
preliminary list of potentiallyharmful therapies, a work in
progress to be revised andrefined.
Lennon fell 2007.
Okay, point me where I'msupposed to go.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
If we're going to look at a list of treatments
that are effective, then itmakes sense to Look at
treatments that could bepotentially harmful.
Oh, that makes sense.
Yeah, it's almost like we dothat in the medical profession
too, mm-hmm where you shouldn'tleave like a Scalpel inside of a
body.
You can I mean you could.
It's not the best treatment,right.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
Do people do it on purpose?
No, maybe never know what wasthat thing they used to do that
they thought was a good idea, alittle bottom.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
You guys seem all too familiar with it.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
I Don't remember.
I have asked for one.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
What was that, isn't they?
They separated your frontallobes from your cortex.
I don't know, they took out achunk of some, but they would
just like take the knife andthey were just severed the
nerves between them.
Yeah, because they would itwould reduce your nasal cavity
or Texas.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
All about your sensory and it was one doctor
that did a pretty large majorityof those, I believe.
Yeah, if you want to know moreabout lobotomy is check out last
podcast on the left.
They've got a good series onlobotomy's.
It's pretty bananas.
That's crazy man so, but To endthis, I think why.
(49:18):
What would be a good cause towrite a book like this, joe?
Speaker 1 (49:25):
rugged.
What, what?
Yeah, it's an interesting point.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
It's not interesting thinking well, I mean what I
mean towards.
That is like what, what are youtrying to inform?
Are you trying to inform and?
Speaker 3 (49:42):
So, are you trying to misinform?
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Why are you trying to inform?
Is this something that needs tobe?
The light needs to be shed on.
Speaker 3 (49:54):
So that the overarching point of the book is
that Maybe most people don'tneed therapy.
True, true, wait thoughts morejust opinions.
Maybe it is.
This leads me to hand lensrazor.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Yeah, never attribute to malice that which is
Adequately explained bystupidity.
Yes, so I?
What?
Oh you?
You think this is malice or doyou think this is just stupidity
?
I?
Speaker 3 (50:24):
No, I think this is.
This is tending towards malice.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Hmm, why, though, what happened in her life?
I?
Speaker 3 (50:32):
Don't know if it's, I don't know that it's
specifically about her life, butit seems a lot more towards and
they do talk about socialemotional learning as a Kind of
trigger to this this new therapy, new age of therapy, again,
social emotional learning,something that's New, curriculum
(50:55):
, wise, but not new necessarilyas a as a human thing, by any
means, but in terms of how we'reincorporating it into our daily
lives.
And that seems to be a realthreat, for some reason, to a
large group of people.
And what is therapy?
(51:16):
Do well it?
It helps you connect withwhat's going on in your own life
and how you engage with peopleand how you think about things
and how you think about howother people think about things.
Speaker 2 (51:28):
Well, provide you those strategies.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
Yeah, lean into and you know, and so you have to ask
yourself why would a largegroup of people not want you to
have those strategies, taxes?
Why would a large group ofpeople not want you to be
self-reflective?
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Yes, sir, may have some more.
Speaker 3 (51:53):
That's a good question.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
It's fun though, because that's a whole other
topic.
I didn't know it.
Okay is that all we had?
We just, we just bashed MissAbigail Shrier for 53.45 seconds
.
She wrote the book.
We didn't read it.
We took 14 minutes of her.
You want me to do it.
We shredded her you want me todo it, are we?
Speaker 3 (52:17):
I'm just asking I'm doing all our kinds of bad stuff
right now.
Are we looking at just takingit for the team?
Oh, look at Brad, he's justgoing muddin.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
Hey, it's it's good therapy.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Proud of you I had first first step is acceptance.
Speaker 3 (52:34):
He hasn't even watched it.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
You're still here.
It's over, go home.
Speaker 3 (52:50):
Oh.
This is the terribly unablivious podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Yep, I said it before and I'll say it again Life
moves pretty fast you don't stopand look around once in a while
?
Speaker 3 (00:12):
You could miss it.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Yeah, this is Brad's fucking theme song.
I can't play the rest of itbecause we'll get copyrighted.
I didn't hear the first bitbecause that's good, we're
starting because Got a boy backhome in Michigan and it tastes
(00:40):
like Jack when I'm kissing him.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
So I told him that we were all going clubbing in
Chicago.
Dude.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I'll see, oh come on.
Such a, such a banger.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Do you remember that conversation?
Which one?
The one where I was, likeMartin's, having a meltdown.
He was going to Chicago.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
I yeah, you didn't tell me about the Chicago part.
You told me it was melting down.
Do you want to tell theaudience who's here with us
today first, before we just goon to talk and shit about him?
It's another one.
Yeah, it's a fresh app.
It's Martin when we're in thestudio we do studio things.
The elevator.
We're going to Chicago.
Everyone you want to talk aboutall the stress that's been
(01:16):
going on your life, Martin.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I can't.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I mean, I mean we may as well start there.
Brad brought it up.
He threw it into the bus.
Maybe he needs some bad therapy, Bad at love yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I did better help for A little over a year, did you
yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Did you have the same therapist or was it somebody
new?
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I stuck on the same therapist I like.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Are you having stress in your life?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Everyone has stress.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah, you should shake it off.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Oh, that was a.
What a fucking intro.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
You should shake it off.
You know what you should do.
Is that a right hook or is itan uppercut?
You should get over it and moveon.
You know what you should do youshould be resilient?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, yeah, I'm OK.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah.
So for the audience thatdoesn't understand all the back
log of information here, mr JoeRogan had an episode recently
with a Miss Abigail Shrier.
The Shrier, shrier, let's sayShrier, ok, investigative
(02:21):
journalist, columbia Oxford Yale.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
She has those three on her resume, by the way.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
That's great.
Got into some.
Got into some deep thoughts.
That Nothing.
Deep thoughts that yeah,they're a little superficial.
Basically, that therapy ismaking the next generation weak.
Is that is that?
Is that a good?
Speaker 3 (02:46):
summarization Brad, there's not a good summarization
of irrational thought.
Ok but there's a link to thisparticular clip.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah we play a lot of copyrighted material, but we're
not going to risk the Joe Roganbecause that's definitely going
to get kicked off.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
It's about 14 minutes .
They cover that.
You get the real general gistof what she's talking about, and
she has.
This is in her new book calledBad Therapy.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
It essentially says good cognitive therapists will
remove people from therumination of their problems,
versus bad therapists will justsit and talk to you about your
problems over and over again.
It's a little.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
You know what?
That?
That's probably a nice way.
That's a nice way of putting it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I'm not trying to get kicked off the podcast spectrum
quite yet, oh well, I'm justlike.
Joe Rogan was like the Dom, itwas like the Sopranos and he was
like the king.
He just whacked us.
We got whacked all of a sudden.
Buzzsprouts like you're off,you're gone.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Do I not have to listen to another episode like?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
that it wasn't good.
It was really bad.
It wasn't his best.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
This.
This just started the other day, because this is a as we're
talking about it.
It's only a couple days old, Ithink, and so it popped up on
one of my feeds, and it was atwo or three minute clip
initially, and so I, you know, Istarted listening to it and I
didn't get 60 seconds into itand got all kinds of cringe
(04:22):
factors going from it.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
And so I'm really sent it to Dylan.
Case of the yuck.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Case of the yips and what were those yucky yips?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
be I, because we I mean obviously we can't share.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Watch.
Watch the video and then listento this.
And and I tried to write notesdown just so that I could kind
of follow along with her.
It would be much easier to do avideo analysis of this, as, as
they play it and then we respondto it, but we're not really
quite some solid terms of what Imentioned in the video is like
(05:00):
never, which is is is adifficult word, because I mean
when even children say the wordoh, I'd never do that.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
It's like that doesn't pan out right.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Maybe, we have an episode on therapy or denied
that there were any.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
We're going to get.
But isn't that like Jiffy Lou,like we?
Speaker 3 (05:22):
were totally off the edge of that much.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Well, it's their business to change oil.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Exactly.
Can you just stop it?
Exactly, so like okay, it'slisten to it or don't.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Whatever you know, these two didn't listen to it.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
The idea we bits pieces.
This is that false dichotomy.
And you versus them.
Bullshit that.
You fucking it is it is.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
It is me that had to listen to the entirety of this
thing.
I am sad right now.
That's right, I am sad.
Thank you, jordan.
Listen to the, listen to thatlogical fallacy episode before
you watch that 14 minute clipand see if you can pick some
things out, because she hitsquite a few game five of them.
(06:13):
So after getting the, theinitial cringe factor, of course
, I go to the Google.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Oh, what did you find in the Google?
What's this about?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
the Schmugelsphere.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Yes, I did come up with some website listed, like
all of her appearances on media,or is it?
Is it in the notes?
I don't know if I kept that one, but you can kind of guess the
Let me guess.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Okay, you guess.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Martin, guess he was really wrong.
He was like Oprah.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I didn't say Oprah.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I didn't say, oprah Does she still do her favorite
things Does she still do herfavorite things.
I did say I did say KellyClarks.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I said, uh, Newsmax.
And I said, uh, what is it?
O A N news.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Yeah, I don't know.
That is Okay, so that right yougo.
It's not on cable news.
Jordan Peterson Yep, only onetime.
That was about when she wastalking about those, the
transgender, one irreversibledamage, the transgender craze
seducing our daughters.
Hmm, keep going down that road.
You can do it.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
That's all I got, really, the Daily Wire, oh, okay
, well, prager, you JordanPeterson's on the Daily Wire,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Okay, but the Joe Rogan, this is our first
appearance on this one, so then.
So then I do that little, youknow echo chamber thing where
I'm like the Rubin report, ohbitchapiro, she bought a
bitchapiro several times,trigger Nometry, which they're
all they're all the Daily Wire.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
It is.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
So now she's written a new book called Bad Therapy.
And why this?
the subtitle is why, the kidsaren't growing up.
So in this 14 minute clip westart with things.
Like you know, kids need tosuck it up and they need to
shake it off.
And no one tells you to shakeit off anymore.
(08:12):
And it's not just that parentsdon't say it, it's that nobody
says it.
And as me and Martin aresitting here looking at it,
we're like pretty sure, prettysure, we say that a lot and I
don't just say it to my kids, Isay it to kids that I coach too,
get up, let's go.
Yeah, just in the sense that,like, if it's not a big deal,
(08:37):
we're not making it a big deal.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
So Well, in reference to that, though, it's like
there's also, there's also anunderstanding of of when you
parent, and if you make it a bigdeal, then the child makes it a
big deal.
Yes, and if you know how toparent I'm not saying that
people don't know how to parent,but if you test out the waters
(09:00):
around parenting and then yousee your child fall and you kind
of play the dumb card and lookaway, they're not going to cry.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Yes, yes.
So I remember my one of myfriends was telling me example
of a professor that they tookthat to the extreme, so like
when their kid was bleeding he'slike mom, I'm leaking.
So, yes, you do.
You do have some influence onyour account.
I'm not joking.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
This is true?
I'm not joking.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
So the fact that nobody ever says these things to
kids anymore.
Okay, I'm going to say so.
Is parenting different now thanit is in the 1950s?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yeah, yes, in America .
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yes, and was it different in the 1950s than it
was in the?
Speaker 3 (09:55):
1890s.
Yes, yes, it's generational.
Are we just doing math now?
Are we going to do this thing?
Speaker 1 (10:01):
You don't know how to do math.
I've got a math.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
But you can measure things.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
I know how to turn alerts off, it's just getting
that's a window's flaw, that's awindow's flaw.
So basically we get into thisthing where now therapy is a
thing right, and we can get intosome of the logical fallacies
of why this may be an issue.
(10:28):
Now kids don't know how tohandle anything because all they
do is now they're just going totherapy.
They go to therapy all the time.
Okay, so not all kids go totherapy.
Kids don't go to therapy allthe time.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
I don't know a lot of people that go to therapy.
I would say 90% of the people Iknow don't go to therapy, and
30 years ago, therapy wasn't athing like it is today.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Right.
But we also have to understandthat if you have a core group of
friends that is kind of likeyour therapy, no that's your
dumpster fire.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
No, it's not because sometimes your friends are
fucking dumb.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Well, yeah, that is your dumpster fire.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
But there's that dichotomy to that too.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
That's an issue.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
But she's just throwing down the steps, man See
.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
You don't want to do that.
Passion, more passion.
Need more passion.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Football is life.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
So she somehow gets this idea that, if so, this
whole clip you will findhalf-true.
This is why it's dangerous.
You will hear things such aslike yeah, kids need to toughen
up.
Okay, yeah, that's a thing,that's always been a thing.
(11:46):
Like are kids too comfortablenow?
Yeah, sometimes they are, arethey?
Dealing.
It's not just kids, though,it's everybody Right.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Everyone's comfortable.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
So at one point she says she's talking with a
professor, a friend of hers, andshe goes these kids just
they're not confident in doinganything.
Like they're intelligent, theydon't want to run their own
experiments in college.
Like they're intelligent, theydon't want to even get their
driver's license.
You know to like they justdon't think that they're capable
(12:20):
of anything.
She was in the.
The millennials were like this,this group of people that could
do anything, and they createdall of these, these things on
the internet and social mediaand all of this stuff, and it
was just like they could doanything.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
And my first say was the Mark Zuckerberg era.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Mark Zuckerberg is not a millennial.
He's back in.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Yeah, he is Okay, he's got to be.
I don't know, and my firstthought was don't you think that
some of the problems that thekids today are facing are
because of all the shit themillennials created that didn't?
Does that not cross your mindone time?
I'm like, oh yeah, we'redealing with a lot of, like,
(13:03):
anxiety and depression.
Okay, and, and what is new inour culture today that we didn't
have 20 years ago?
Can we not look at those things?
Nope, not a look at thosethings.
Let's look at therapistscomments.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Well, there's more people and with more people we
have more revealing articles ofinformation from the general
population around, like what'shappening versus historically
when we had less people.
There's just not enough mediacoverage around the less people
win.
Less people like like in thenineties, Even before in the
(13:45):
eighties and seventies but thenalso the exposure to information
as well.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
So that's a major part of this discussion is like
if these things didn't exist.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
It's like they've always existed.
It's just about revealing thetherapy has always existed.
To I would say yeah, I meancognitive, behavioral therapy
that is something that I have noauthority is speaking around of
when it was in existence andwhen what was revealed for
(14:21):
existence.
But in terms of therapy itselfand understanding how the human
mind works, has always beensomething that's been intrigued
by people that wanted to studyof how we operate, but not
always.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
What do you mean by always?
You're saying, oh, it's notbeen the modern day idea of
psychology.
How long has that been?
Around 120 years, maybesomething along those lines.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
So why did we used to just ring the bell over the
kids, the babies, and they crythose experiments that's when
modern psychology was involved.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
No, modern psychology had more to do with like
vibrators.
Look at up salivating dogs nothose were two separate
experiments, thank you, okay.
True, though, what was theringing of the babies?
That's fine.
Or like the dead cat in thetrunk, what?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
No, that's a philosophy thing I will say,
like the ringing of the babies.
I'm not too sure.
Maybe.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Dylan might.
First psychology laboratory byWilhelm Wund in 1879 at the
University of Lipsig 1879.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
I will say that in China what they do is they with
the infants.
They whistle to help them go tothe bathroom.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
How Does that follow you all the way through grade
school, middle school, highschool?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
That is interesting yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
They throw whistles out there just so they can all
piss at the same time, so we canget algebra done.
You whistle really loud.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Do you pee your pants ?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
No, I don't, but maybe I could see.
Not in America, no, but maybein China.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Oh, we're going to need a whistle.
Did you do that?
Did you pad?
Now no, oh.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
No, I'm nervous.
Just try it out, maybeExperiment.
What?
What did I do?
Nothing?
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Why do you fucking look at me like that?
All right.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
You need to check your attitude.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
You had a shit show.
You were all excited thismorning and then this is what
you do.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Yeah, this is what I do, or bread moody bread.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah, I hate this podcast.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Well, I don't like it either.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Good, why don't you formalize it?
Then Tell the audience yeah,fuck this show.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
So she quickly compares ruminating on bad
thoughts in your own head totalking about those thoughts to
therapists and that they'reessentially the same thing.
You shouldn't do them, becausethey just bring about more bad
thoughts.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
The more we talk about the bad, the more bad
happens.
Yes, love it.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yeah, you never get it out of your head right?
And we're under the completeassumption that therapists are
total jackholes that do nothingother than sit there silently
and just listen to you talkabout your bad shit.
That's going to be our generalassumption.
Never are you given tools orasked questions or strategies
(17:29):
for dealing with these badfeelings or thoughts.
Right, just shove that shit down.
That is the shoving thefeelings down.
Gets somewhere in the middle ofthis clip they start talking
about the human spirit, and thestory of the human spirit is
(17:52):
that it is resilient and that itovercomes things, and that in
the past, you know people havelost siblings.
Even 100 years ago, it was very, very normal to lose a sibling
at some point in your young life, right, and even you know you
would lose parents at a muchyounger age than you lose them
today, even though people stilllose them.
(18:14):
And the story is that you justcontinue on with life and you're
able to have a family and leada good life, and you just got to
keep going.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Mom Pa made spaghetti .
Tonight we're talking aboutorgan trail.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
I love that game.
Yes, it's very much like organtrail Was organ trail eight bit
or 16 bit.
Please don't dis-tarrie though,because you'll die.
Yeah, 16 bit.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
It was, it was, it was it wasn't, it wasn't 32.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
You want to die?
I think I beat the game acouple of times.
You want to die of dysentery?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
No, I don't want to die of dysentery.
There was a some punk rockgroup wrote a song called
dysentery gig oh, blake 182.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Okay, but you got to get across the river at some
stage.
A couple of rivers, thank you.
Ford.
Ford the Ford River.
Ford the River, mmm Yep.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
No, I don't want the Donner party.
Where do you get so mad?
Brad Early versus the organtrail Right.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
I'm trying so hard to stay focused.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Okay, come on, let's go.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Nintendo Wii has an organ trail, fuck it.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
It's on.
It's on Apple Arcade too 1975is the OG so.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Okay, you go, okay, I , you have some.
You have some processing ofthis Dylan.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Okay, talk to me about it.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
You've lost a sibling .
You should just continue on andpush down whatever feelings you
have about it into your guthole.
Do you agree with her, Dylan?
And live a perfect life and, uh, I don't know, just I don't
know, don't think about it, justdon't think about it.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So I yeah no.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Is.
Is what she is saying possible?
Yes, 100%.
People go.
People, uh, compartmentalizethings and don't think about
things all the time and continueon with their lives like shit
never happened, or they try toforget about all of the bad shit
that ever happened to them, andmaybe I'm just not going to
(20:26):
think about how that couldunconsciously affect any of my
behavior for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
That's fucking bonkers, because like yeah, you
go.
Like World War II, thereturning vets that came back
Got on with their lives.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
They shook it off, martin.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I yeah, yeah, that's you know, you know the fact that
a lot of those guys came backand they weren't right, but it's
not really talked about mygrandpa was a POW and he had a
family and clearly couldn't havelived a better life whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Other than the fact that all of you are fucked up.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
No one says that.
So what she's saying is likeit's the, it's the opposite of,
of, like that continualimprovement, right.
Or it's like no, no, no, no,these guys managed.
Why?
Why can't we just keep managing?
I really don't think about.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
I mean, how did they manage through alcohol?
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Sometimes, and zero grace, and this is my I.
I didn't deal with my sister'sdeath for a very long time and
my I was very numb to the worldfor a very long time.
The highs weren't very high,the lows weren't very low.
I did that for longer than I'llcare to admit, and my level of
(21:59):
patience, my level of grace forthe common person, the really
the only, my only saving gracewas the fact that my parents
ingrained in me that I had to bepolite, so much that that was
really the only thing thatstopped me from being an
absolute shit head in the worldwas that you needed to be
respectful.
I look at it as like a videogame, like um health bar and
(22:25):
it's Brad, you've used thisanalogy before.
It's the people that aredriving home at five o'clock,
totally cracked out of theirmind from stress, that they're
upset when somebody accidentallyturns in their lane without a
blinker and it's like I'm goingto murder that person.
They're the worst human beingin the world, fuck that guy.
There's like it's whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa Things that really
(22:46):
escalate again.
Cars are a whole differentthing.
They're dangerous, they're,they're, they're a loaded weapon
at the end of the day becauseof how powerful they are, but
we've really escalated this.
You have zero grace in your life.
Your bars all the way at left,at zero, you're empty, whereas
if you deal with your issues andyou, I understand what she's
(23:07):
saying, but she's conflating itwith if you go to therapy and
you ruminate and you're notwilling to put in the hard work,
that's a problem.
You're just going to talk andin a cycle without and not
actually putting in the hardwork.
There's something we said aboutthat oh, I go to therapy, I go
to therapy, I go to therapy.
It's like okay, what are youactually doing to solve it,
(23:28):
though?
Are you actually?
Speaker 3 (23:29):
are you actually doing the things that you're
told to be doing, or to you'redoing or well and we've talked
about this too, in terms of like, are you being authentic with
what you're actually or you areyou?
Speaker 1 (23:38):
lying to your therapist because you're
embarrassed, which is a bigthing.
But if you are actually workingon that, grace bar, by the way,
gets bigger and bigger.
It's like leveling up in avideo game too.
It gets longer and longer andlonger and you have a.
The amount of patience andgrace you have for your fellow
man or woman is amazing, and Ithink that's what I've gotten
(24:01):
out of it.
It's like I can sit here andtake so much more because I've
worked on the not piddly stuff,but stuff that's underlying,
that shouldn't affect what I'mdoing right now.
So I have patience for being inthe moment.
Yeah, it's a long way to get tothat Sorry.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
No, no, no, it's good .
Speaker 1 (24:19):
It's good.
So she just grossly throws inthe negative Nancy's.
That are the bad apples that goto therapy and they I don't
discount the fact that there arepeople out there that will talk
about going she that talk aboutgoing specifically after
therapists.
She is, but she's also going,but she's a.
(24:39):
The herd data is being fueledby the people that are the
influencers not the right termthe people that want attention
and they're going to be like oh,I got a therapy, I do this and
this and this, but those are thesame people that repeat their
same negative or their sametoxic behavior over and over and
over and over.
(25:00):
It's like if you were actuallymaking an effort in therapy and
you were going to theappropriate place, you would be
not doing that Like you, you,you, you.
It again doesn't have to be afast train to the repair or I'll
say grace repairs, the wrongword but if you're doing the
(25:21):
same shit over and over again,you're really not working on
yourself and so don't.
But she's using the bad datapoints as her data points.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Definitely that part Um there's.
There's also maybe we talkabout Ted lasso all the time in
terms of like um, there's a lotof good type of therapy involved
in that show.
There's also the show shrinking, which is kind of by the same.
So good.
So, good it's also good, but itit cuts to the point where I
(25:53):
think she's talking about genderdysphoria at one point, cause
she's also written up I'm surewhat is a fabulous book on this
topic and uh, you know she'llhave a.
She'll say there'll.
There'll be like a 12 year oldgirl that comes in and and is
talking to a therapist aboutgender dysphoria.
She goes the therapist neversay like you don't have gender
(26:13):
dysphoria, because that isscientifically proven to only
happen in young boys.
And she's like the therapist,never say like you don't they.
Essentially she's trying to saylike they don't prescribe them
specific actions.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
I don't think you have gender dysphoria.
I will invalidate what you feelit's right there.
You put it in the notes.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
And it's, it's.
It reminds me of the part inshrinking where he kind of gets
to the point where he's like youknow what fuck this?
I'm going to tell thesepatients exactly what I think,
but it's what I mean you'vetalked about before when
interpreting certain parts ofbooks where in the context of
the book it sounds reasonableand when you take it out of
(26:56):
context it sounds a lot morelike I can do whatever the fuck
I want to weaponizing man.
So, and the very last episode iscase in point, yes, Uh, so you,
you don't know how how peopleare going to take things.
And so when it almost soundslike she wants therapists to
(27:16):
prescribe actions for people totake, and you're like, whoa,
okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
That can be, yeah, so vigilante therapy she doesn't
have that psychology degree.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Okay, so that's, she has a law degree from Yale, so
that that sure they're superproud of her.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
That's different, because there's standards and
practices around patients oflike how to help them understand
where they need to go, andstrategies of how to help
improve their lifestyle.
Yeah, mentally yes, and sothat's yeah, that's, that's how
to how to left field.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
So I.
So at one point Rogan says well, did you talk to a therapist
about this?
And she goes oh, I talked to alot of therapists.
Okay, what, what was their take?
What's?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
that.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
What's a lot mean.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, what's the number Does she have any data?
She hasn't read the book.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
And why are?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
you bringing it to us this is because I found it
today.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
That's why this is a half baked episode.
You watched two minutes of thefucking clip that I sent to you
and I'm not leading the chargehere.
I'm leading the charge on thisclip.
Okay, keep going.
I fucking hate this show.
So I'm.
I'm doing research on.
Words are hard bad therapy,right, and there are some things
(28:47):
that uh, uh, so cognitivebehavioral therapy in general,
and then there are specificlines of thinking that you can,
you can go down.
So people have certaintechniques that they can use for
certain situations, right, andthere are certain techniques,
like anything, that uh, peoplewill be like.
Oh I wonder if we try this, Iwonder, I wonder if by, like, uh
(29:11):
, hitting a mouse with a hammer,if it'll run faster, right.
And so there's these thingsthat are created and you're like
, oh yeah, maybe that's not,maybe that's not the best way to
do it, but are there going tobe, like some people that
believe in it, even though it'sa bad idea, like shop therapy?
Oh, I was thinking more likereligion, but but they're so.
(29:34):
You went there, so they're.
They're so that, basically, someof the the literature I found
is like there's about five ishpercent and this is just across
the board of what is reported inthe world of people that go to
therapy and have worseningsymptoms.
Okay, now, if they didn't go totherapy with, their symptoms
(29:56):
get worse anyways.
Yeah, we don't know is whatthey say, we don't know.
So what kind of fucking dataare you basing this on?
That?
This doesn't work.
So you're five percent.
Okay, statistical analysis youguys are better at numbers than
I am, just because of major.
(30:18):
Something works 95% of the timeand I'm going to write a book
on why it's bad Seems legit,okay.
So then they, they go intocomparing.
I mean, basically, therapy islike a snake oil salesman, where
, once you come in, you're nevergoing to leave, and we
literally talked about thiswhere, like our therapists are
(30:39):
asking us are you, is this still?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
beneficial to you at all.
Do you want to come back?
Do you need to come back?
Are you sure you need to behere?
Speaker 3 (30:47):
I mean both of ours have.
So again, are there some badtherapists out there?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yes, Are there some?
Speaker 3 (30:54):
therapists?
That are shitty people.
Yes, there certainly are.
So it's a new profession.
Yeah, any yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
It's the, and I love where it's a generalization.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
You put.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
You put some moral high ground on somebody.
It's like, oh, there's oneperson in this entire group of
people and they're they'resupposed to be held to a higher
standard.
You're like whoa.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
She then goes, goes through and gives examples of
why anxiety and depression aregood for our, for our lives.
You know, and her example wasif I didn't have anxiety, like I
wouldn't have you know I hadanxiety coming on the show and
if I didn't have anxiety, Iwouldn't have prepared and been
ready to do the show.
Yes, that's anxiety.
(31:39):
It's not the same as I haveanxiety all the time about
fucking everything and I have noidea why.
No, those two are the same.
Sure Pressure.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Invited.
There's pressure, did yeah,there's some, there's some
conflation there, yeah.
So you have anxiety about aforward thing your career's on
the line here.
So you have anxiety about someof this, moving the needle
forward Right, whereas otherpeople have anxiety where
they're laying in bed all daybecause they have something.
That means they have no conceptof what is keeping them down,
(32:13):
but the whole world's implodingfor no reason.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
But like depression, you know you, you have a breakup
and you feel sad, and then thedepression You're really sad to
see that.
Yes, thank you, jordan.
You're really sad to see, youknow, that that relationship go
away and and then you get overit and that and that feeling is,
is an accomplishment andwithout that sad feeling you
wouldn't have the accomplishmentfeeling of getting over it.
(32:37):
You know clearly that's thesame as clinical depression.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
She's putting revenge sex in the same category as
clinical depression.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
She's putting a lot of things in the same category
as a lot of things.
So that's rough.
Then then Rogan is like oh,it's like the Jiffy loop, you
don't have to change it every3000 miles.
But we're in the business ofchanging oil.
And she goes yeah, you know it,but eventually you do, you do
(33:07):
have to change your fucking oil.
You do have to change your oil,I mean, so you have to change
every 3000 miles.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
No.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Dylan, how often did you change oil in your Jeep?
Never.
Okay, he doesn't have a Jeep,not anymore.
Jokes on you.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Martin.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Set that up.
No, that's true.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
I'd still have my Jeep so by her, by her analogy
we're the Jeep and if we don'tchange the oil we'll be fine,
Until our engine blows up.
Yeah, Shit hits a fan.
I mean that that actually worksout really well.
So what happened when theengine blows up you?
(33:44):
Die, you know what, andeverybody else that loves you.
They got to get over it, ohgeez.
What it's not my idea.
So off off of the Jiffy loopthing.
Then she's like off off of theJiffy loop thing.
Then she starts talking abouthow you know therapists don't
(34:06):
turn like if you go to atherapist and you're like, hey,
I'm feeling this way she goes.
They don't just say like andI'm not gonna work with you,
which is false.
For one, like therapists, allthe time We'll say like this is
not something I specialize in,I'm not gonna you need to see.
So yeah, like this, let merefer you out.
So one, they do say that.
And for two, like if it'ssomething that they think that
(34:28):
they can help you with, why arethey gonna turn you away?
So it'd be like you know whatpeople that go in bleeding to
the ERs, like the doctors likenever turn them away.
Like yeah, no shit, that'stheir fucking job.
If that's what they do, there'syeah.
So if they can help you,they're gonna help you.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Responsibility to care one thing and also but
there's an oath to that as wellthe to that part, yes, so she.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
She leans Kind of hard on the fact that, like the
what we typically think aboutanxiety and depression are, they
don't constitute real problems.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
So it's fictitious.
Are we in the matrix?
I don't know, dude, just awhich pill are we taking here?
I don't remember we, I thoughtwe went through this one time.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Then she goes into the.
The goal of therapists is totreat the least problematic
patient for the longest periodof time, because that's that's
the best benefit for them,because they don't have to work
very hard and they will justkeep them coming back, and
coming back, and coming back.
Okay, and she says, she says ofone therapist as she talked to
(35:44):
you she's like he said that ISet a number of sessions from
the get-go.
This is for Gen.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Z's right we're talking about, or anyone.
She doesn't qualify.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Mm-hmm.
Okay, that's interesting she is.
She is qualifying that like Gen, not even Z.
There's like a new generationto you, right, like alpha, I
think, generation alpha, all Ican think about is those are
like the little kids Wayne'sworld when you say a new
generation.
I think of some of the ways thatshe's Reasoning in terms of the
(36:20):
way that people thought aboutCOVID.
They're like, if we just don't,if we stop testing for it, like
the numbers will go down.
Just thank you, captain.
Obvious, just like there were.
No, there was no AIDS epidemicbefore we knew what the fuck
AIDS was.
That doesn't mean it didn'texist.
It was there.
Yeah, didn't have a name for it.
(36:42):
So how is this?
Different you guys can me.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Yeah, you fucking look at a man, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
There's just.
There's a lot, so we talk aboutnuances all the time.
There's a lot of fuckingnuances that go into this
problem, yeah there was somebroad sweeping generalizations.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
So we don't have a fentanyl issue.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
What has?
What has changed?
We have a cocaine issue.
It's just being cut withfentanyl.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
What has changed in in our children's minds in the
last 25 years?
Any major developments happenin terms of humanity.
Tell the tubbies that could bewildly different for Growing
minds her um, but I know I can'tthink of any.
Okay, yeah, no, zero, no,nothing.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
I don't know why we just flew.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
No, that was a long time ago 1908 yeah, yeah.
I mean basically, the thingsthat we encounter today are
exactly like they were in 1908and we should think about them
as such 1918, 1920, bummer.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
That was our chasm, by the way.
Yeah, but context-wise, like,of course, the kids that are
growing up today, their exposureto different experiences are
Very much different than ourexperiences growing up, and what
they have in terms of tools andmaterials, yes, so wild.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
There was four waves of Spanish flu.
Oh my god, why can't we talkabout this?
500 million people, about athird of the global population,
and Four successive waves.
Deaths ranged from 17 millionto 50 million.
I'm having a fake depressiveepisode right now good.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
I know it's not real, I'll just go for it.
Let's shake it off.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Why is that?
It's fascinating so.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
They.
They kind of touch on somethings and I'm a bit
disappointed in the non pushbackIn the comments from the host,
mmm, it just Like all three ofus listen to it and almost every
(38:51):
other sentence you're like hitthe pause button, but wait, what
about this?
And he doesn't do that.
Why?
Why would he do that?
Why would he do that?
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
He's an interviewer.
He's not a listener.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Yeah, he's making a shit ton of money right now.
He used to be pretty good at it.
Yeah, he seems to be less so Idon't want to.
The objective is the wrong term, but he seems to be less pushy
than he used to be.
I Don't.
I don't listen to a constantcost to use your work.
(39:29):
You know where's your Show yourwork he's.
He's less show your work thanhe used to be yes.
I, I Think.
So he used to be like whatwords I say, that I, I, yeah.
I was a massive listener of hisyeah and I Agree.
I used to enjoy it because he,it was always show your work,
(39:49):
show your work, show your work,show your work.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
And not only that, but you had, you had a lot of
both sides of you know, and somaybe somebody else will come on
.
That is.
That is very Opposite.
This lady's opinion, mm-hmm, Idon't, I don't know if it's, if
it's really going that way.
It so at one point she'stalking about you know somebody.
(40:14):
Somebody drives by their oldhigh school and you know they.
They claim they can't take thatway anymore because it gives
them PTSD of when they werebullied in high school.
Should have been a nerd and I'mreally sad.
And and he's like yeah, but Imean he goes, I I get like angst
(40:35):
.
I had remember getting anxietydriving by my high school, like
after I was out and just youknow she, what is that?
She's like that's a bad memoryand I'm like okay.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Are we just generalizing?
This is a bad memory.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yeah, what can we get some more definitions on, like
what is teasing?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
bullying memory, ptsd going on.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
She's like that's just a bad memory that you know
you're not handling very well,and in my head I'm like hey, you
know what helps with thatfucking therapy.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
If you don't remember , maybe you've suppressed so far
that you need to really justuntuck that bad boy.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Oh my god it's, it's a lot.
They talk about it Again,modeling it all up.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
They also talk about really good for you, what you?
Speaker 3 (41:20):
know why are we not talking about like you know,
going outside or like exercise,you know exercising is great for
your mental health?
Like, yeah, thank you, fuckingno shit.
What are we in 2024,?
okay, I think we're aware ofthat.
So you're telling me thatyou're not gonna be able to find
any person that Eats well,works out, has a job and has
(41:45):
some sort of major Depressive oranxiety or any other type of
issues going on?
Not, none of those, you know.
I think those people exist.
If they do exist, isn't theproblem a little bit more than
what you're leading it on tobelieve Possibly?
So then they go on to.
Well, you know, we have aluxury.
We have a luxury to think aboutthe things that we do think
(42:08):
about in this country.
If you were in, you know, ifyou were in like a war-torn
country, you wouldn't, youwouldn't be thinking about
anxiety in the same way as wethink about anxiety.
You would have actual anxietybecause you would have bombs
going off all the time.
And I don't really know that,just to the sense that, like,
(42:32):
those little things won't helpyou out, like you know, like
going outside isn't gonna curethat, so like that's a real
problem.
Like yeah, that that is a realproblem.
But then Rogan goes on to say Isay this all the time like the
worst thing that's happened toyou is the worst thing that's
happened to you.
So whether you got in a minorfender bender or you just lost a
(42:54):
parent, like whatever, theworst thing is that's happened
in your life.
That's what you're dealing withand it's like okay.
So didn't you just validatethat point for everybody?
Speaker 1 (43:07):
No, Relativity man Relativity.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
So I mean, I think about this, going to therapy and
like are my problems as bad asother people's problems?
Speaker 1 (43:17):
It's not just equals in C squared man.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
Does shit that happened to me as bad as the
shit that happened to otherpeople?
No, it's not.
It's just that it happened tome and I want to improve it, or
or bury it, I mean whatever.
Well, that's what she's saying.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
You bury it, fuck it, it doesn't matter, you bury it,
though Actually it is equals MCsquared because you bury it.
It's fucking exponentially morepowerful than it is if you just
deal with it.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
Not if it's not a real problem.
What they go find themselves,they shit don't fly on my side.
When I graduated college, Icouldn't tell my father that I'm
gonna go to Europe to go findmyself.
What do you mean?
Go find yourself?
I Found you.
(44:03):
You're right here at my housewhen you gonna go.
It's different you want to seeyou Go look in the mirror, you
got no job.
It's different.
So there there is a sense of itjust is all of these things
we've talked about like, do weneed to self-reflect?
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
She's saying like no, don't do that at all, because
then you get stuck in your headand that's bad for you, to a
point like if you're only inyour head.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Yeah, I disagree with that.
You got it.
You have to do that, you haveto improve.
But also, how do you?
Speaker 3 (44:42):
So she's taking the people that have like clinical
depression, that are not goingto work, that are not talking to
, people that are removing thehelp spells from everything and
they're in their own head for aLong period of time.
Is that healthy?
No, no, it's not healthy.
And she's saying that's whatit's like talking to the
therapist.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
What she makes, some large leaps.
Large, it's quantum.
Yeah, it's a little, so I justit's a little cringy yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
Little major again.
Are there certain things likedoes going outside improve your
mood?
Yeah, yeah, it does.
Just let's do a whole podcastabout forest bathing the other
day, which is also a Japanesething.
What's forest bathing?
Speaker 1 (45:27):
I've heard about mudding, but forest bathing,
forest bathing, okay, one, whatis forest bathing?
Two, what is mudding?
Speaker 3 (45:33):
There's a lot of different terms for that.
What?
Speaker 2 (45:37):
No, muddy, it's from suits.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
But yes, I can't think of the Japanese word.
But muddings, the actualphysiological changes when you
spend time in specific areas andyou watch the trees start to
anything Okay.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
So I got Lord of the Rings, forest mudding or any
snow muddings.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Different it's you go to more of a like a spa and
they have a tub full of Specifictype of mud and you so I'm from
Jennifer would call itgrounding, oh yes, where she she
likes to garden or just diggingthe dirt.
No, no, no, you lay in the mud.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
I know what that is but, but there is a Very
visceral feeling of likeconnecting back with the earth.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
I live in the clouds.
I don't hang out with peasantson earth.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
God, we talk about practice, so Listen to that, you
know.
Check the book out from thelibrary, don't buy it.
What bug.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
Her book.
We're not suggesting this book.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Oh Jesus.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Christ man.
Don't tell them check it out.
Tell them look at the clip.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
Okay, so to In ending of this, like I mean we've got
links up the ass over here.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
I want therapy causes harm.
Yeah, what is this?
Yeah, it's from 2008.
This is wow.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Oh, what I?
The list of of available thingswas not long for this list of
harmful therapies.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
What do we have for harm with the third harmful
therapies?
Speaker 3 (47:31):
Yes now you're just reading and you're not saying
any about loud, which is nothelpful.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
Against the backdrop of a parent ignorant.
Scott Lennon fell, theprofessor of psychology at Emory
University in America.
But professional sensitivity isthe one side.
Last year and use currentresearch findings to propose a
preliminary list of potentiallyharmful therapies, a work in
progress to be revised andrefined.
Lennon fell 2007.
Okay, point me where I'msupposed to go.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
If we're going to look at a list of treatments
that are effective, then itmakes sense to Look at
treatments that could bepotentially harmful.
Oh, that makes sense.
Yeah, it's almost like we dothat in the medical profession
too, mm-hmm where you shouldn'tleave like a Scalpel inside of a
body.
You can I mean you could.
It's not the best treatment,right.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
Do people do it on purpose?
No, maybe never know what wasthat thing they used to do that
they thought was a good idea, alittle bottom.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
You guys seem all too familiar with it.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
I Don't remember.
I have asked for one.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
What was that, isn't they?
They separated your frontallobes from your cortex.
I don't know, they took out achunk of some, but they would
just like take the knife andthey were just severed the
nerves between them.
Yeah, because they would itwould reduce your nasal cavity
or Texas.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
All about your sensory and it was one doctor
that did a pretty large majorityof those, I believe.
Yeah, if you want to know moreabout lobotomy is check out last
podcast on the left.
They've got a good series onlobotomy's.
It's pretty bananas.
That's crazy man so, but To endthis, I think why.
(49:18):
What would be a good cause towrite a book like this, joe?
Speaker 1 (49:25):
rugged.
What, what?
Yeah, it's an interesting point.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
It's not interesting thinking well, I mean what I
mean towards.
That is like what, what are youtrying to inform?
Are you trying to inform and?
Speaker 3 (49:42):
So, are you trying to misinform?
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Why are you trying to inform?
Is this something that needs tobe?
The light needs to be shed on.
Speaker 3 (49:54):
So that the overarching point of the book is
that Maybe most people don'tneed therapy.
True, true, wait thoughts morejust opinions.
Maybe it is.
This leads me to hand lensrazor.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Yeah, never attribute to malice that which is
Adequately explained bystupidity.
Yes, so I?
What?
Oh you?
You think this is malice or doyou think this is just stupidity
?
I?
Speaker 3 (50:24):
No, I think this is.
This is tending towards malice.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Hmm, why, though, what happened in her life?
I?
Speaker 3 (50:32):
Don't know if it's, I don't know that it's
specifically about her life, butit seems a lot more towards and
they do talk about socialemotional learning as a Kind of
trigger to this this new therapy, new age of therapy, again,
social emotional learning,something that's New, curriculum
(50:55):
, wise, but not new necessarilyas a as a human thing, by any
means, but in terms of how we'reincorporating it into our daily
lives.
And that seems to be a realthreat, for some reason, to a
large group of people.
And what is therapy?
(51:16):
Do well it?
It helps you connect withwhat's going on in your own life
and how you engage with peopleand how you think about things
and how you think about howother people think about things.
Speaker 2 (51:28):
Well, provide you those strategies.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
Yeah, lean into and you know, and so you have to ask
yourself why would a largegroup of people not want you to
have those strategies, taxes?
Why would a large group ofpeople not want you to be
self-reflective?
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Yes, sir, may have some more.
Speaker 3 (51:53):
That's a good question.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
It's fun though, because that's a whole other
topic.
I didn't know it.
Okay is that all we had?
We just, we just bashed MissAbigail Shrier for 53.45 seconds
.
She wrote the book.
We didn't read it.
We took 14 minutes of her.
You want me to do it.
We shredded her you want me todo it, are we?
Speaker 3 (52:17):
I'm just asking I'm doing all our kinds of bad stuff
right now.
Are we looking at just takingit for the team?
Oh, look at Brad, he's justgoing muddin.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
Hey, it's it's good therapy.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Proud of you I had first first step is acceptance.
Speaker 3 (52:34):
He hasn't even watched it.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
You're still here.
It's over, go home.
Speaker 3 (52:50):
Oh.
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