It's Called Practice

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 Discover how to push past the comfortable plateau of regular practice and into the realm of true expertise. Through laughter and lively banter, we'll share why Angela Duckworth's grit and the famed 10,000-hour rule are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to achieving excellence, whether you're on the sports field, in the office, or tackling life's hurdles.

Ever wondered how world-class athletes continue to raise the bar, or what separates a good TED Talk from a great one? It's not just about putting in the hours; it's about the right kind of hours. We'll reveal the power of setting stretch goals, the art of effective napping (yes, it’s a thing!), and the undeniable importance of embracing our fears and failures with a smile. Martin provides his razor-sharp insights, while we throw in anecdotes that prove personal growth is not just about focused effort, but also about enjoying the ride.

Wrapping up, we dive into the mental fortitude of legends like Tiger Woods and uncover the delicate balance between dedication and obsession. Coaching, feedback, and the value of a fresh perspective take center stage as we recount experiences that changed the game for us—and could for you too. Tune in for a captivating blend of motivation, strategy, and humor that might just be the nudge you need to tackle your next big challenge.

Episode Transcript

Dylan (00:00):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Terribly
Unoblivious.
On today's episode, we arejoined by our friend Martin, the
ruthless villain, to discussdeliberate practice and why it
differs from just regularpractice.
This includes developing agrowth mindset and discussing
what grit is and is not.
I also figured out how to usethe soundpads on our mixer and
some hilarity ensues.

(00:20):
This is Terribly Unoblivious.
Episode 23,.
Ted says it's practice.

Brad (00:26):
Yep, I said it before and I'll say it again Life moves
pretty fast, you don't stop andlook around once in a while, you
could miss it.

Martin (00:45):
See, I'm just schmutzin' it up.

Dylan (00:46):
Are you a tribbler or a?

Brad (00:48):
shooter.
To be fair, yeah, more of aball handler Back to back the
ball skills.

Dylan (00:55):
Yeah, good for you.
So we're back, man.
It's been what?
A week two since we've been inthe audience.

Brad (01:02):
I don't know, I don't know In the audience on the podcast.

Dylan (01:04):
Where have you been Places you want to talk about
our guest today, the only guestwe've ever had beside your wife.
This, yeah, you don't soundexcited for Martin at all.
That's amazing.
He even brought a laptop.
This time he's prepared.

Brad (01:21):
He is prepared.
That's actually why I broughthim.
So Martin the ruthless villainis back, and today we're talking
about practice and this iscoming from what I was into.
Martin's into a different book,has read some other stuff, read
the same book and some morethings.
So I'm going through Grit byAngela Duckworth right now, and

(01:47):
this is.
We may do a few more things onthis, but this one in particular
, I think, is a important notionfor improvement of any kind.

Dylan (02:01):
So we talked about this last time.
This is when you were justgetting into it.

Brad (02:04):
Yeah, I don't remember that episode.
I hadn't got this far into it,but it's something that I talk
about.
I mean, you probably talk aboutit with your team at work.
Yeah, okay, I'm sure you do.
You're like setting specificgoals and how to attain those
goals and working towards thosegoals.
We aimlessly work, you justaimlessly do.

Dylan (02:26):
Okay, so that's where we're talking about You're
attained on the wall and youwill come out of the maze.

Martin (02:29):
Yeah, and make sure with that would be tough love too at
work, right Like you got tohave people that are going to do
everything and anything theycan to try to solve the problem
and then when they can't, thenthey're going to probably lead
into other colleagues help themout.
So that's part of it.

Brad (02:47):
Yeah, but tough love is going to be on our sex episode,
which will be later, so we'renot going to get into that right
now.

Martin (02:53):
Did we get Dr Drew for that?
Yeah?

Brad (02:56):
I'm going to be Dr Drew.
Okay, I don't know if you knowthis, guys, but I'm going to be
doing impressions, just non-stop.
Now that's going to be my newthing.
They're going to be terribleand you're going to love them.
So tell your friends, tell themto email me a email.

Dylan (03:08):
That doesn't work, dr Drew.
Right, we can do it.
We're going to be able to do anice.
We're going to be able to do anice Adobe audition voice
modulator on that.
I can't wait.
Cool, what's that?
I don't know.
It's like what we did for hottakes.
Okay.

Brad (03:23):
Hot takes.
Oh wow, hey, I see you gotthree buttons there.

Dylan (03:30):
No luck.
Dylan did some research at hisall time.

Brad (03:34):
Okay, okay, I like that.
Yeah, so this is AngelaDuckworth and Grit is the book
the power of passion andperseverance.
So there's multiple parts toher grit.
So if you have questions alongthe way, martin, because you are
aware of these things, feelfree to ask away Because we're

(04:00):
not going to touch on everythingthat she does.
This is just one chapter ofthis book, and that chapter is
called practice.

Dylan (04:06):
But today we're talking Is this like when you love some
of so much but you didn't meanto hit them, no, okay.

Brad (04:12):
No, what's that?
Nothing.
That's a different kind ofpassion.
I went to a party about passionone time.
Did you buy anything?

Dylan (04:24):
No, I was really weird.
I heard they have great lotionsoh okay, I'm going to skip that
part.
Okay.
So why don't you go in yourdiatribe now and tell us all
about the book?

Brad (04:38):
It's not just practice, guys.
It's deliberate practice, whichis different than regular
practice.
Martin, tell us how it'sdifferent.
Just kidding, what isdeliberate practice?
So you guys have heard of the10,000 hour rule.
Yeah, I'm going to give anopportunity to talk.
No, fuck you guys.

(04:58):
Okay, go for it.

Dylan (05:00):
Brad, I love this.
I'm changing this to the Bradshow.
Just a glorified disc jockey.

Martin (05:10):
I'm just a right along person.

Brad (05:12):
So this chapter kind of starts out with the fact that
there is a level the expertsreach through amount of time on
task.
So one of those famous rules isthat 10,000 hour rule, famously
written by that's why you'rehere Andres Ericsson.

(05:35):
Well, that's different, but hebrings it up.

Martin (05:38):
He brings up the fact of deliberate practice and the
preceding topics around that,but before that you have
outliers with Malcolm.
Well, there's, there's somedebate around the 10,000 hour
rule, but you're going toprobably going to talk about
that so is.

Brad (05:58):
It is deliberate practice, just more time practicing,
that's.
That's the question that we'retrying to answer.
Is there a difference betweendoing something intensely and
focused and, dare I say,deliberate towards a goal, or
just?
To use the word in thedefinition sort of yeah, wow,

(06:21):
okay, okay, think of anotherword Ready Go.

Dylan (06:25):
This isn't my podcast Intentional.
It's a good word.

Brad (06:28):
Yes, it's like my intentional feelings.

Martin (06:32):
Oh geez, what and how are they today?
They hurt.
Why Did we hurt them?

Brad (06:38):
Maybe I am expecting it.

Dylan (06:42):
Jesus, our mics are loud today.
We just haven't done this for awhile.

Brad (06:48):
So it's.
It is quantity versus qualityof time, and so the 10,000 hour
thing kind of comes from anAndrews Erickson in his book
peak also talks about this.
There is a generalunderstanding that people that
that basically practicesomething about 1000 hours a

(07:09):
year to become expert level, andthis is across several domains.
Okay, so this is likeinterviews with experts of all
kinds.
They typically say about 10years is how long it takes to
develop the skills needed to bewhat you would call like a world
class expert.
So that's kind of where that10,000 hour rule came from.

Dylan (07:28):
Essentially, this veers off from range a tiny bit,
though.
Oh yeah, we'll get to that too.
Okay, sorry, no, but yeah, Ididn't get the schedule ahead of
time kids?

Brad (07:37):
No, yeah, it, 100% does.
So it's, they're going to buttheads a bit.
Okay, so so, and and that,specifically, is where these
other chapters come into it,right?

Dylan (07:52):
So from grit or from from grit?

Brad (07:55):
Yes, so if you have questions being like yeah, but
you guys talked about range andthat was about generalists, not
specified.
You know spending all this timein one specific area or just as
lost as you guys are we'regoing to get there.

Dylan (08:08):
Okay, okay, do we have answers or just more questions?
A little bit of both love it.
Honestly, it's again just putthe left hand on the wall and
just get out of the maze, or theright hand on the mic.

Brad (08:21):
Think about it, it's not bad.
This would be a lot better ifyou guys had cameras.

Dylan (08:25):
but yeah, well, you don't .
Okay, piggy banks empty.

Brad (08:29):
So they're they.
She also brings up a it'skaizen.
There's a lot of Japanese stuffaround lately it is In my head,
not in general, just in my head.
Okay, and this is a.
It's essentially a continuousimprovement.
That's very famous businessmodel in Japan as well.

(08:52):
So deliberate practice isthat's kind of how we're going
to think about it is a way goingforward to methodically work
towards goals for specificimprovement.
Yes, the best way to do it.

Dylan (09:07):
So an easy analogy for the audience is a sports analogy
.
You know, practice can beanything, be anything in life,
but a sports analogy.
You play basketball, you justgo to the gym and you aimlessly
shoot the ball wherever you'reat on the court, versus knowing
your deficits are at the freethrow line and we'll say you

(09:29):
know three pointer from the leftcorner.
Well, we should probably go tothose areas and meticulously
work on those independent areasright now, and like we're going
to run drills on those areas,because those are my deficits
right now.
Oh, you weren't talking thistime, I was.

Brad (09:50):
That was a really quiet one.
Yeah, she knew she knew.
Yeah, yes, so that's yeah,you're 100% right, that's
exactly where we're going.
Even before that, do you?
Do you understand?

Dylan (10:01):
your shooting form?
Do you understand yourweaknesses?
Are you taking stats tounderstand that?
Yeah, yes so the.

Brad (10:10):
She has a graph in here that kind of explains world
class versus mid range, versusbasically a dropout right.
So it's essentially a learningcurve, time on task.
So everybody essentially startsoff at a more time you spend on

(10:39):
tasks, the more increase inskill you get right.
And then there becomes thisplateau sort of effect.

Dylan (10:48):
There's a diver, there's a divergence.

Brad (10:50):
Let's say an obstacle, let's say a hardship, let's say
a struggle, right.
So everybody meets somethingthat maybe is not very easy to
them.

Dylan (11:02):
Maybe Odysseus gets lost at C.
Okay, okay, maybe, havingthrown out a Homer reference in
a while, World class expertscontinue improvement, and not by
accident.

Brad (11:15):
So this is what she's going to get into is how do they
set that up?
A more typical person will havewhat she calls a rested
development.
So, again, just like the worldclass expert, initially they
will see an increase in skilllevel and then it will
dramatically taper off and leveloff, and so that could be.
I think an example is think ofsomeone like you work in an

(11:38):
office, or if you've worked withsomeone in the past, someone
that obviously developed enoughskill to get into that career
path and then just stagnated forlike 20 years.
So, essentially, can you get 20years of experience or do you
get one year of experience?

Martin (11:56):
20 times is how she defines it Right, and that's the
same thing in teaching too,yeah yeah, which sucks for kids
because you get one teacherthat's like, oh, I got my
experience and I'm just going toteach the same thing and give
the same test every year, versuslike, hmm, how do we make this
better next year?

Brad (12:11):
Yes, so that's the constant improvement.
And then you have a dropout,which is somebody that reaches a
certain skill level and forwhatever reason, ADHD but, yeah,
there's a ton of reasons right.
So if you're looking at sports,you're like, oh, they hit an
obstacle and then they justdidn't have any grit so they
dropped out.
Okay, that, maybe that's onepossibility.

(12:34):
You know, the possibilities arelike they had no interest in
the sport, like they had nopassion for it.
So there's a lot of reasons forthat as well.
And, along with this book, gritis grit.
People tend to think about itas pursuing something at all
costs until you succeed, andessentially what she's getting

(12:57):
at is yeah, there's a lot moreto it than that.
Like there's plenty of reasonsto not do something 100 times.

Dylan (13:04):
Yeah.
And it's all goal based in theworkplace.
I think the where I see thisthe most would be.
I don't know the answer thereare people around me that do but
I'm just going to blast throughthis brick wall time and time
and time again just to figure itout on my own and there's

(13:25):
something to be said aboutfiguring it out on your own
because that does teach you.
But at some point You've gotresources.
Go use those other resources.
You don't need to have someonedo it for you, but have them let
you drive while they walk youthrough it, and I've seen so
many people who are like youspent seven hours doing what.
Today?
We have documentation on thisthat was drawn up last year by

(13:45):
someone else, because they wentthrough the same thing.
Oh, we do.

Brad (13:49):
Why expend all your energy breaking through this wall that
someone has already brokenthrough 100 times, when you
could just piggyback on people'sknowledge to then try to break
through this wall that hasn'tbeen done before Get you to the
next place, or whatever.
But yeah, I mean, there's hardwork and then there's stupid
work.

Dylan (14:10):
There's a waste of energy .

Brad (14:11):
Yes, so there are a lot of things that go into this.
So, essentially, what you gotto with that basketball
reference was, rather than focuson what they already do well,
experts strive to improvespecific weaknesses, and you see
this all the time in kids andwe'll get to this later why this

(14:32):
may possibly be Like what doyou do really well?
Oh, I do this thing really well.
What do you do all the time?
I do this thing that I doreally well all the time.
That's what I do Do you doanything else.
No, I don't want to do anythingelse.
I do this really well.
So, kebby, you suck real hardat a bunch of stuff.
Too late to put them down.

Dylan (14:51):
Softly real talk.
This is where you're going.

Brad (14:56):
So that's where the expert level comes in.
They want a need to know whattheir weaknesses are and how to
overcome those Root them out getrid of them.

Martin (15:09):
But the big caveat with deliberate practice is that you
need that feedback, and ifyou're an individual striving to
improve, how does one receivethat feedback?

Brad (15:20):
There's a lot about that too.
Can you like being part of agood team, being part of a good
like having a good coach?
Okay, what do you do if youdon't have those things?
Well let me talk about the restof the fucking podcast.
Okay, Jesus, I got to layeverything out in the first five
minutes 15.

Martin (15:40):
Jesus, this is miscalculated there.

Brad (15:43):
Yes.
So experts hungrily seekfeedback on how they did.
Necessarily, much of thatfeedback is negative.
This means that experts aremore interested in what they did
wrong, so they can fix it, thanwhat they did right.
The active processing of thisfeedback is as essential as it's
immediacy.
So you want to do something,you want to get feedback on how

(16:07):
that was done and you want to bereceptive to that feedback,
right?
So an example that she had givenwas another guy that was doing
an experiment and it was forsurgeons and they were going
through and testing.
And so you're testing on ifyou're doing proper procedures

(16:30):
on patients or not, right, andthis, obviously everyone was in
there.
That was, they were smart, theywere intelligent, and this guy
was continually not doing wellon it and after each time they
tested, they got feedback and hejust kept on and kept on and
kept on until the end of the dayeverybody else was done, Like

(16:50):
they had passed, they hadcorrected everything and he
hadn't, and so he stopped himand he goes okay, the test that
you just took, can you tell methings that you were almost
certain of that you did correctand then things that you did not
?
You don't think you did well on, and when he actually reflected

(17:12):
and thought about it, then hecould receive the feedback that
he'd been getting, and then nexttime he did, it was great, you
passed done for the day.

Martin (17:21):
That has to do with mindset, though.
Yeah Right, and so that'sanother book which would be Also
part of this like a growthmindset.

Brad (17:30):
Growth mindset yeah, but that is that self reflection,
part of the feedback where it is.
You can give me feedback allyou want to, but if I just don't
think I'm doing anything wrongin the first place, I'm not
gonna take it into consideration.

Dylan (17:48):
Yeah, growth mindset encourages resilience of the
mind.
It's being able to bevulnerable enough to take that
feedback and not take itpersonally, and understand that
it's for me to grow.

Brad (17:59):
And know that you have weaknesses.

Martin (18:02):
So the bigger question might be if you're diving into
this direction of having grit inyour life and applying
deliberate practice to improve,you'd probably want to have to
start with ensuring that youhave, or trying to develop an
open mindset, because obviouslythe surgeon didn't Correct.
So how does one do that?

(18:22):
How does one develop An openmindset to be receptive to
feedback, because it isdifficult for not only the youth
but still adults to this day.

Brad (18:34):
So I think initially what she would and this goes back to
an earlier chapter, but this isall goal oriented, okay.
So she talks about top levelgoals, mid level goals and low
level goals, right, so what endsup happening is when you ask
people what their goals in lifeare, they'll start telling you

(18:56):
some random shit, and most ofthem are lower, mid level goals,
so they're not all necessarilyworking towards one top thing.
And she also specifies like youmay very well have two top
level goals, like hers is to bethe top level researcher, and
everything she doesprofessionally works towards

(19:16):
that goal, and then she also hasa family life that she is
trying to excel at, and so, inthat sense, everything she's
trying to do and in that term,is geared towards that.
If you don't have those, youend up maybe wasting time on
things that don't matter.
So, like that scenario that youwere talking about, where the

(19:38):
guy's banging his head againstthe wall for a needed amount of
time, is that working towardshis overall goal?
I don't know.
If it's not, then that's not aworthwhile time.
So that's an important topic,which is-.

Dylan (19:56):
I like how she frames the different levels of goals,
because if you don't have a,we'll call that top level goal a
guiding light.
Where do you know you're going?
You don't have a compass, youdon't have a, and so many people
try to start backwards and workthemselves forward to getting
somewhere.
It's like no, no, no, no At theend of the day or at the end of

(20:18):
five years.
Where do you want to be?
Yes, and now you need tobackwards, you need to reverse
engineer it.
You need to start workingbackwards, okay.
So, if that's what I want,what's the step right before
that?
Okay, that's that.
What's it take to do to get tothat right before that?
And then you work all the wayback to like to even the micro,
which is okay, I want to.

(20:39):
You know, you can use thebodybuilder analogy.
I want to grow muscle so I'mlike, well, I probably shouldn't
go out and party with myfriends right now.
It's a perfect analogy, though,because no, but it is you want
to gain 30 pounds of muscle,You're like, and I want to be.
You know, 4% body fat, You'relike okay well, I probably
should choose to go sleep andlet my body rest tonight, wake
up, go to the gym versus oh, Ican go have four or five beers

(21:01):
with whomever tonight, and then,you know, be a little should.

Brad (21:03):
You can't do that.
So that's why, looking atexpert level and taking their
stories, it's almost easier tosee, because if you are a top
level, anything the margin forno time can be wasted.

Dylan (21:17):
is every decision has to be so much smaller?

Brad (21:20):
So yeah, you can't.
You can't just go drink sixbeers Like you.
You can't miss a workout.
You can't be 50 grams down onyour protein.

Dylan (21:29):
Like Sam Allen used to be the CEO of John Deere, I had
some knew, some people that wereslightly just acquaintances
with them, and they were.
They were talking to him onetime.
He said if I don't get my kids'birthdays on my calendars two
years in advance, john Deerewill book my day and I will not
see my kids on that day or Iwill not have time to make a

(21:52):
phone call to them.
And it's like when you're thattop level CEO or you know, or in
sports, it's your life'salready planned that far out,
because you don't have anywasted you don't have any extra
time.

Brad (22:03):
Her example was a baseball pitcher that they had
interviewed, and he's likeeverything, everything in my
life comes down to this how do Imake this the best?
And so that's my training andmy nutrition and what I do, and
what I do for fun, and how muchtime I'm here and how much time
I'm with my family.
And are there sacrifices?

(22:24):
Yeah, 100%, but this is my goal, this is what I want to do, and
everything underneath thatworks towards that, because
anything that doesn't is takingme away from that goal, and
essentially, that's what thegrit is Is can you keep doing
these things that are sometimesmundane or sometimes frustrating

(22:46):
, or that will get into thingsthat you aren't able to do?
Can you keep doing them overand over again until you get
them and continue improvingtowards that goal?
And that's what grit is.

Martin (23:00):
What's interesting, though with grit because with
her Anders Ericsson was kind oflike her mentor there's a little
bit of a sidetrack to it thatwe probably should introduce to
the audience, and that is thefact that you can't just power
through one certain thing toimprove on, because you're gonna

(23:21):
go back to Dylan's situationwhere you have that one
personnel that's banging theirhead.
You have to remove yourselffrom that specific situation, go
do something else and thenreturn back to it, and that go
to something else is improve ina different area and something
else and then go back to whereyou need to focus and improve on
that specific thing.

Brad (23:43):
Okay.
So also, I don't know if I putthis in here anywhere else
Where's note taker ever?
I know we'll get to it later,but deliberate practice is
different than any other type ofpractice in the sense that it
is intentionally hard, that youare super focused on something,

(24:05):
most likely that you are eithernot good at or you cannot
complete currently.
That's the whole point ofdeliberate practice, and so, for
that sake, they say an hour maxat a time is a good timeframe.
So you're not gonna sit thereand do like a two hour
deliberate practice.
So if we're talking about youthsports and you're like, oh,

(24:27):
deliberate practice is the wayto go, I'm gonna do two hours of
it.
If you're doing it right, youcan't do it.
You're gonna lose them.
And it doesn't matter what itis.
It could be mental, there'sfatigue at some point, oh yeah,
oh, it's physical and mental.
Yeah, I mean they talk aboutlike why top level performers
take naps on a regular basis,Like that's part of the reason

(24:50):
is deliberate practice.

Martin (24:52):
You guys nap.
Yeah, oh, 25 minutes no welllunch.

Brad (24:57):
Lunch is for sissies.
It's in the book.
What's that for?

Dylan (25:01):
When?
Oh no, you're gonna test me.

Brad (25:04):
That's Wall Street, oh yeah.

Martin (25:07):
So maximum.
So for the audience, maximumtime is 25 minutes max, if
you're gonna nap.

Brad (25:15):
I don't understand napping .

Martin (25:17):
It's possible.
You can train your body to doit.

Brad (25:19):
So if you read the book when by Dan Pink, and he tells
you it's like peeing upside down, you can do it.

Martin (25:24):
It's just difficult.
Anyone can do that.

Brad (25:26):
What it's possible.

Dylan (25:28):
Somebody told me it was hard Peeing upside down.

Brad (25:31):
I spent a lot of time.

Martin (25:32):
You deliberately practice how to pee upside down.
Yeah, it's hard.

Dylan (25:37):
I'm gonna see that deliberate practice session.
No, you don't.
You went for four hours, notone hour.
That was your problem.
You got fatigued?
No, I did.
Oh, the blood rush to your head.
Right now it's the guy in thecave.
Oh, don't, I need the caveimage.

Brad (25:49):
Don't do it, I'm gonna share the cave image on socials.
You're not gonna practice.
You understand me, practice,practice.
Oh, we're talking aboutpractice.
Everybody knows Dylan lovescaves.
So there's an image and it'snot funny because somebody did
die.
Somebody died, okay, somebodydied in a cave.

Martin (26:10):
I do have a question, dylan how are elevators for you
with, like, lots of people, noproblem.
Okay, it's not a cave.
Well, it's still.
It's claustrophobic.
You're in a box, it's going upand down.
There could be a lot of people.

Dylan (26:23):
No, I don't get claustrophobic in the
traditional sense.
I just don't like big heavy.

Brad (26:28):
You just don't like dying under thousands of tons of rock.

Dylan (26:32):
Okay, I'm a broader human being.
Anyways, I'm a broader humanbeing, I don't need to be
testing the limits.

Brad (26:36):
Me and Martin decided that this is gonna be the new meme,
for you're just having a bad day, me.
No, anybody oh okay, we'regonna try to get this started,
so we're just gonna share thepicture of the animation of the
guy upside down in the cavewhere he dies, which is not
funny.

Dylan (26:52):
cause he died?

Brad (26:53):
So bad, but you know Britt's gonna be on it and
she'll love it.

Dylan (26:57):
She'll start sharing it.
And now I know what other pad Ineed.
I need the.
Did you die?

Brad (27:01):
But did you die?

Dylan (27:03):
It's so bad, these pads are gonna be my new favorite
thing in the whole world, so doyou guys wanna know how to do
deliberate practice?
Yeah, Cause she tells you, walkme through it.
All right, first step.

Martin (27:16):
Oh, is that a thing?
Mm-hmm.

Dylan (27:19):
No, this is an update.

Martin (27:20):
Oh, that was a key pad.

Brad (27:23):
Thank you, Keep going.
First step know the science.
That's it.
You just got into the scienceof it, oh and we're done, yep.

Martin (27:31):
Okay.

Dylan (27:31):
Wrap it.

Brad (27:32):
Next and we're out.
Okay, so the basic requirementsof deliberate practice A
clearly defined stretch goal,right?
So, on her hierarchy of goals,there's low, mid and then your
top level.
A stretch goal is somethingthat is going to miss her?
Uh, not quite.

(27:55):
Maybe actually he's, you know,but it's not a miss.

Dylan (27:59):
So it's, there's, it's.
It's a long that line, though,like you, you can't, you can't
do it.
This is like a long form.

Brad (28:05):
So you can't do it or you can't do it reliably right now.

Dylan (28:08):
Okay, it's a long form, so you have a high rate of
failure of trying to become thebest in the world.
That's some, whatever you'redoing.

Brad (28:15):
That's the top level goal is definitely a miss Of your
life.

Dylan (28:20):
Long form, yes, okay, so I said long form, a stretch.
Go listen to me, I havefeelings and validation needs as
well.

Martin (28:26):
Yes.

Dylan (28:27):
Okay, garse on another.

Brad (28:29):
Garse.

Dylan (28:30):
Garse means boy.
It's also a very derogatoryterm for a movie.

Brad (28:37):
Pulp fiction.
All right, yes.

Dylan (28:38):
I know, okay, royale cheese, go for it.
I love that you haven't crackedyour bubbler yet.
You're just like I'm going todrink.
I'm going to drink these beers,so stretch goal it is.

Brad (28:51):
it is a I don't even want to say short term goal, because
it could take you a while right,$10,000.
So it's if you're looking to bethe best 400 meter runner in
the world genetics.
It's going to help.
It's going to help.
But she would also say effortcounts twice over talent.
Yeah, but that's not on thepaper.

(29:12):
Don't read it.

Dylan (29:13):
No, it is, I have it right here.
No, it's not yeah.
It's right here no HGH, so seta stretch goal Talent, talent,
stretch goal Talent times effortyou go.
Skill, skill times effort yougo to achievement.
Wow, look at you.

Martin (29:21):
You're so smart.

Dylan (29:25):
Don't get pissed.
I'm going to get pissed why?
Just because I know things andyou don't.
Yeah.

Martin (29:32):
Get pissed Brad.

Brad (29:33):
So first you got to have a goal, a stretch goal.

Martin (29:36):
Well, at the same time, do you want to talk about how?
How do we develop our goals?
Do you want to talk to them?
To the mic, Maybe?

Brad (29:43):
I don't know if he's picking anything up.

Dylan (29:44):
No.

Martin (29:45):
There you go.

Brad (29:46):
Do we want to talk about what?
Well, how do people set upgoals?
How do you set up goals?
Mm, hmm.

Martin (29:53):
Are you going to do like the warm buffet type goals,
like I'm going to write down 25and then you know circle the
five that are going to go for?
Okay?

Brad (30:01):
So you want me to just do the whole book?

Martin (30:03):
No, maybe.

Dylan (30:06):
But you're skipping over key, key moments right now.
You're not giving people,you're not giving the audience.
That is terribly unablivious,the tool sets.
You're just kind of If they'reterribly unablivious.

Brad (30:16):
they're probably somewhat aware of what they're passionate
about.
Okay, which?
Is another chapter.

Dylan (30:22):
Assuming a whole lot.
I am, I am.

Martin (30:25):
Testing your assumptions .

Brad (30:28):
But can deliberate practice make you good at
anything, not just your toplevel shining light goal?
That wasn't the question.

Dylan (30:35):
Yes, it can, so can you apply it to a lot?

Brad (30:36):
of parts of your life.
You fucking bet you.
That wasn't the question.

Dylan (30:40):
The question was how are you going to ask that, how are
you going to tell the audienceabout how to identify, define
goals, and how do you go aboutthat?

Brad (30:48):
What is something that you want to do.

Dylan (30:50):
I want a curly fry and a chocolate shake.

Brad (30:54):
Just one curly fry.
Do you have money for that?
Yeah, okay.
Do you have a car?
Yeah Okay.
Then fuck off with your stupidgoals.
Okay, you got it.
You got it, you win.
So why are you so?

Dylan (31:06):
angry.

Brad (31:07):
I just because I love stupid questions.
That's my favorite.
A stretch goal is something.
It's a good question that youcannot do right now, that with
practice you can do.
So, martin, oh, you're pointingfingers at me.
I'm not.
I'm going to ask you a question.

Dylan (31:24):
The hand.
Talk to the hand we use theterm it's smart, Brad.

Brad (31:28):
I can't kick a.
They're smart.
I cannot kick a soccer ball.
Okay, very well.
A stretch goal for me, say forthis spring, would be to
practice kicking a soccer ball.
I want to hit top right corneron a somewhat regular basis If I
want to.

Dylan (31:48):
Okay, okay, all right, it's smart or it's specific.
Sorry, it's specific.
It's measurable, it's smart ohit's achievable.
I have a smart goal again.
It's relevant.
You can't do that and it's timebound.
Why not All right?

Brad (32:02):
So it's something that.

Dylan (32:03):
I can't.

Brad (32:03):
It is something that I can't do right now.

Dylan (32:06):
Are you going to put a time?

Brad (32:07):
I don't have a time limit on it.
Okay, because I would hit smart, be smart.

Dylan (32:12):
It's a smart goal Smart, specific, measurable, achievable
and relevant.

Brad (32:16):
So I know that if I go out and I kick a ball and I kick it
10 times, I suck, and then if Ikick it like 50 more times, you
suck even more, I suck somewhatless.
So I am aware that just withsome practice like, I'm able to
improve.
So now can I have someone thatis knowledgeable about watching
my form and what I'm doing wrongand giving me feedback?

(32:37):
Can I then adapt and adjustwhatever I'm doing so that I can
become a better kicker?

Dylan (32:45):
Probably not.

Brad (32:46):
Okay, Sorry.

Dylan (32:49):
Martin's the expert here.

Brad (32:49):
Not at the fair point, yeah.

Martin (32:51):
I mean there's two ways.

Brad (32:53):
Hey can we break it down.
I'm not talking about 40 yards,I'm talking about like 15 yards
on a kid goal.
Yeah, okay, I got faith in you.

Dylan (33:03):
I got faith in you.

Brad (33:05):
I don't want to put a.
I don't want to put a ton ofspin on it.
You want to put?

Martin (33:08):
I'm not going over top of dummies, I just want to hit
it where I want to hit it.

Brad (33:12):
That's it.
Okay, that's a stretch goal forme, okay.
Okay, that's something that Ithink that I can achieve.
That I need some feedback onthat, with some deliberate
practice, where I go out thereand let me tell you when you're
practicing something that yousuck at, it's not fun.
No, yeah, I agree, that's alsoa part of deliberate practice.
Great, but there's some debateon that.

(33:37):
So, like deliberate practice,when they so, one of the big
things that they studied waspeople that were in the national
spelling bee, and then theytalk about the different ways
that they practice.
So, are you reading for fun?
Are you doing this?
Are you and the people that didmore deliberate practice, which
was harder practice?
So what do I suck at, like,what specific kinds of words do

(34:00):
I have problems with, or whatfrom what origin, or?

Dylan (34:04):
Not a good Italian speller.
Yeah, pretty good and suchthough.

Brad (34:08):
So they would go down that rabbit hole of practicing this.

Martin (34:12):
But like back up real, real quick.

Brad (34:14):
Yes, reading, just like reading books or literally
reading the dictionary, no, likereading books, oh okay, so like
that's practice that introducesyou to vocabulary.

Dylan (34:23):
You're seeing a lot of words, but it wasn't, because
you have to have context,because words are obviously.

Brad (34:28):
We know that, but it had no overall factor on who
performed high and who performedlow.
But the people that diddeliberate practice which were
things that were much harder andthat weren't necessarily fun
because they weren't good at itright performed significantly
higher, like all the topperformers.

(34:49):
So when I go out and kick aball and I kick it like a dunce
20 times in a row, I don't likedoing it, but if my goal is to
say my overall goal is to be abetter soccer player, well then
I got to learn how to kick afucking ball, don't I?
So that's some of the age.
That's something that I have tostart striving for.
Kids are going to be listeningto this.

(35:10):
Yeah, you should, because youcan't kick a ball either.
You like that?

Dylan (35:15):
You're just yeah, I know what you're doing.
You mean coach.
I know what you're doing Allright.

Brad (35:22):
So that's the stretch goal Full concentration and effort
and we already kind of talkedabout this where it's the fact
that you are focused on it?
Think of it like we've allplayed baseball, right?
Have you ever had somebody likedial in and be like no, you're
doing this with your hands whenyou're trying to swing?
Or golf we like golf is, Ithink, even more intense, like
if you're trying to redo yourgolf swing and you're thinking

(35:44):
about it while you're swingingfuck that that is deliberate
practice.

Dylan (35:48):
Swing thoughts are not a good thing.

Brad (35:49):
Yeah.

Dylan (35:50):
But not on the course on the range is fine.

Brad (35:52):
Yes but when you're developing that, which I had to
do in high school, I'm like thisone's not working for me.
I got to do something else.
And so every time you'reswinging, you're like did I do
this?
Did my hips turn?
Didn't my hands go before myhip?
What's going on?
It's hard.
You're like golfing is fun.
And then you hit 100 balls onthe range and you want to murder

(36:13):
the.

Martin (36:13):
The thing with golfing and soccer is like you, in
baseball, not golfing, sorryexcuse me.
Baseball hitting a ball andthen with golf.
With baseball, you're waitingfor the ball to come and golf,
you just have to be patientbecause the ball's right there,
unless it's rolling.
But my point, you're notallowed to do it.
Don't tell me what to do, okay,my point to the difference

(36:37):
between you trying to hit asoccer ball and then baseball
and soccer is you have all theseoutside elements in soccer that
are coming towards you to hitthe ball or to strike the ball.

Brad (36:52):
Okay, really Good Jeez.
So once I complete a stretchgoal, am I done?
No, okay, so my first stretchgoal is hitting.

Martin (37:05):
Maybe Are you going to be done once you hit the upper
90?
Maybe, just one time, maybe,but you just want to be all the
time.

Brad (37:11):
No, all the time, all the time, every time, yeah 70% of
the time, but just like only ona static ball.
So just when kids are like, youcan't do that and I'll just be
like ping.
And then they're like oh, Ibelieve you, now you can do
anything.
And then I don't actually knowanything else.
You know, I just have one trickpony.
Oh, your one trick pony, yeah,okay.
So I'm going to learn how tokick a ball static first.

Dylan (37:29):
It's not a Gibson movie where he was like that's 100%
not.

Brad (37:33):
He's a good card player.
Oh, maverick, maverick.

Dylan (37:35):
He could draw the pistol fast, but he couldn't actually
do anything else, so that's allhe did, yeah.

Brad (37:40):
I don't even know how you guessed that fucking movie off
of that description.

Martin (37:43):
Stop it Stop it.

Dylan (37:44):
Why not?
That was an awful description.
How is that an awful?

Martin (37:47):
description.
It's a great description,maverick, that's when it melds
Royal Flash at the end.
Come on, dude.

Dylan (37:52):
It's a perfect ending to the movie.
Yeah, you just wanted to comein here.
Bah humbuggin they were doing.

Martin (37:58):
Christmas 8.
For another couple monthsPlaying cards on a steamboat in
a Mississippi yeah no, Iremember you sure.

Brad (38:03):
Yeah, he loves Indians, doesn't really care for Jews,
but you know, no, allegedly,allegedly Passion of the.
Can I get back to my multiplestretch goals?
I'm trying to get through, okay, step one oh step one God.

Dylan (38:21):
Well, don't take shitty notes, It'll be easier next time
.

Brad (38:25):
So, for your dynamics of soccer, I'm going to learn how
to kick a ball static first, andthen, once I can do that, then
I'm going to work on it rollingtowards me and then I'm going to
work on it rolling to the side.
From what side?
I'm going to work on it at afull sprint, like those are
going to be separate things thatI work towards.
Okay, see how you're breaking itdown.
Okay, and some of Maybe, once Ilearn the static part really

(38:49):
well, the other ones will beslightly better.
Okay, right.
So obviously some things aregoing to be harder to learn than
other things, so you're goingto set some stretch goals on
things you can't do.
Some things might come reallyquick and then you move on to
the next one.
All right, now what's the nextthing?
And you're building towardsthat constant improvement.
Okay.

Dylan (39:08):
Yeah, noted Okay.

Martin (39:11):
So how do people do it more?
So in the workplace though.
For example.
You kind of had a little bit ofa conundrum with setting up
your recent jig and you're like,oh, I feel like I have to go
back to elementary school forthis.
How would you explain to theaudience around that, if it's

(39:32):
relevant, because you felt likean empty a little bit?

Brad (39:38):
Yeah, yeah, I did, and that's also part of this is
you're going to fail.
So when you fail, what do youdo?
Get fired Good, fire, good.
That's a high level right there.

Martin (39:54):
I'm really sad to see people.

Brad (39:59):
Okay, I like that one a lot I don't do that.
Why not?

Dylan (40:04):
What are we talking about ?
Talking about you?
You can't just throw JordanPeterson in like that and do
what I want.
I'm the soundboard guy.
You're the voice.
We're only going to get throughstep one, aren't we?
No, keep going, man, we'll parkthrough.
Let's make lemonade.
It's going to be great.

Brad (40:20):
Let's make lemonade Sweet gritty.
That's true.
This is great right now.

Martin (40:23):
We're trying to get through a podcast.
Come on, let's do it, let's doit, let's do it, let's do it,
let's do it.

Dylan (40:28):
Let's do it, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it.
Let's try to get through apodcast.
Come on, let's go, come on.
This isn't funny for you, butit's fun for us Come on Cleetus,
come on son.

Brad (40:37):
So I felt like an empty.

Martin (40:39):
We just have to see that people are disenchanted and
nihilistic and depressed andanxious and aimless and perverse
and vengeful and all of thosethings it's.

Brad (40:47):
He's sad.
He's sad about it.

Martin (40:50):
Do you have any specific arch-type for this?

Brad (40:52):
Yeah, can you go back to the Jesus archetype of a
carpenter and when he wasfrustrated and what he did?
Okay, so, martin, as a toplevel soccer player, did you
ever?

Martin (41:07):
Don't forget that category.

Brad (41:08):
What do they call it in Ted Lasso?
A case of the Yips.
Yips, that's a golf term too.

Dylan (41:15):
Yeah, you can't say it.
You did not say the term yips,you just said it three times.

Brad (41:19):
Yeah, I'm not near golf course.
You literally live on a golfcourse.
Jesus, okay, okay.
Have you ever had a time wheresomething that you were doing
well suddenly didn't go well?
Dating yeah, I'm talking soccerspecific oh, okay, sorry.
Dating too?

Martin (41:37):
Yeah, definitely, because you're a soccer player,
the In America and Europe it's adifferent story.

Dylan (41:44):
Cool cloud tattoos on the arm and Range Rovers.
Why don't you want to become asoccer player?
I?
Don't know, knees, elbows,those, yeah, which is naming
joins now, the hair, yeah, thehair, yeah, the hair, yeah the
hair Right.

Brad (41:59):
So are you going to have to go back and maybe repeat some
stretch goals in your lifetime?
A fine tune if you will,absolutely Okay.
Or a reinvention.
And also remember thatdeliberate practice doesn't take
away.
So you're still going to like,if I'm in a soccer practice,
right, and I'm still going topractice three times a week, but

(42:20):
I'm going to deliberatelypractice 15 minutes a day on
that static kick in the upper 90.
Okay, okay, I'm still goingthrough it's.
It's not like I stop everything.
It's not like this iseverything else?
Be damned, I'm not doinganything else.
This is one specific type of mytraining, whatever that may be,

(42:43):
and this is yeah, this is notjust Sports related.

Martin (42:47):
So what?
What you might want to mentionto the audience is, like,
extrapolated, like that 1%improvement.

Brad (42:54):
Yeah, you have a microphone you can extrapolate
to the audience.

Martin (42:57):
Okay, I'm just trying to Just Dylan.

Brad (43:05):
Hot takes.
Yes, thank you, I've got so,yes, that the incremental
improvement over time.
Are we through step one yet?
Immediate and informativefeedback what went well, what
needs improvement, how do wemake that happen?
Also, this is great if you havea coach or a team or a mentor

(43:29):
or Anybody that gives a shitabout you, that can give me back
feedback part.

Martin (43:34):
I just did the feedback part.
Like, as an individual, ifyou're trying to improve
yourself by yourself, how do youreceive that feedback?
What is it that you need to doto Understand like, oh, this
didn't go well.
Are you recording yourself?
Are you videoing?

Brad (43:49):
yourself.
You could do that also.
It at some point self-awareness, self-awareness, but it goes to
self-awareness, self-awarenessbut like she even talks about
when she did her TED Talk, whichis a lot of people that know of
her know of her from a TED Talk.
It's a little six minute areall TED Talks like six?

Martin (44:07):
no.

Brad (44:08):
They bury very so she did like a six or seven minute TED
Talk on this right and so shegoes.

Dylan (44:13):
They gave her and we're doing and we're doing a podcast
on her right now.
Well, she didn't get at least15 minutes.
Her book must be bullshit, thenI don't make the rules wish.

Martin (44:22):
If I think she's on Ted versus like a Ted, okay, yes.

Brad (44:29):
She's high-level.
I'm gonna have to burn thisepisode onto a CD Floppy disks
yes, I love it.
I prefer hard disks.
Laser disks so she goes in andshe does a preview talk to Ted.
It's not Ted, it's the guy thatruns Ted and another lady, ted,

(44:50):
talk show.
And all they gave her was Likethe negative feedback about what
sucked about her talk, becausethat's all the shit that she
needed to improve upon Mm-hmmshe.
And she was more along thelines of like, oh, I thought I
was gonna be praised and andthat's not, that's not what she
needed.
She needed Okay, this is what'swrong, this is what's wrong,

(45:12):
this what's wrong.
Go back, look at it, see if youcan correct that.
And Then she did and she great,a great talk, mm-hmm.
So.

Dylan (45:20):
So great, they gave her six minutes.

Brad (45:24):
I mean, or six minutes is all she needed.
It's yeah, they vary.
Okay, yeah, so or the boys getat some point say I'm trying to
write Anything.
If I'm just a writer at somepoint, that's gonna have to go
to somebody else.
Yeah, I'm gonna need somefeedback on it.
I can think whatever I want tothink about it.

(45:45):
And we've talked about thatthis before where If you've been
on a topic for a long time, orif you've been researching it or
thinking about it, and then youwrite something about it makes
total sense in your head andthen somebody else reads it.
I Don't know what the fuckyou're talking about yeah, I get
in trouble a lot with my lifewith that.

Dylan (46:02):
So I do too so at some point now with your wife
somebody.

Brad (46:09):
So some things are gonna be immediate feedback, in the
sense that if I kick a ball andI Hit it on the ground every
single time, or I kick it, youknow, left over the goal every
single time, that's immediatefeedback.
Mm-hmm, like I know I'm doingsomething wrong, right, right.
So now, okay, how did I?
How did I kick that one?
Okay, well, let's adjust thisthing.
So it's incremental adjustmentsuntil you hit what your goal is

(46:34):
.
And then it's about consistency.
So, just like you, the guybanging his head against the
wall, can he?
I could go out there and do itand probably figure it out.
It might take me a long timeand my leg might get mm-hmm.
I can giant, and we'll get gianteverybody knows I got time.

Dylan (46:48):
This is a good spot to emphasize that you can do this
on your own, but if you wantsome sort of expediency, seek
others out, yeah because youlearning to kick your upper
right post or upper left post byyourself.
Your form, honestly, might beshit and it's like it works here

(47:10):
when I'm not playing in a realyes, soccer, football match,
whatever we're gonna call it.
I know we're gonna call itfootball because I approve of
that, but that's that works foryou, standing still and even if
the ball is rolling with aroundyou when there's nobody around
me.
But if I have to do this in agame, that form sucks and it's
not gonna be.
It's not gonna actually get thejob done the way it needs to

(47:32):
get done, whereas if you hadMartin observing you, he'd be
like I understand what you'retrying to do.
You're overcompensating, comingover the top of the ball
because you're not getting infront of it enough, and that's
how you send it there.
But what you really need to bedoing is you need to be low, you
need to be shifting your weightback and then getting on and
then getting over the ball,because that's gonna get the pop
and the spin you need, becausethat's how you're gonna get it

(47:53):
over the defenders.
You know it's.
It's having someone and if you,if you, obviously there are
people that aren't gonna be ableto have coaches in their life,
and that's okay.
But if you have the means,don't try to do it on your own.
Search it out, and that'sthat's for every aspect of life,
by the way.
Well, and also, if you're, ifyou're, but not the snake oil
salesman, if you're gonna be atop, level performer you need.

Brad (48:17):
You're going to have to have that, you're gonna need it.
I mean, unless you're just, Idon't even know.

Dylan (48:24):
I mean the world's best, world's best golfers.
I keep going back to thatbecause it's such a.
It's just as much mental in alot of sports but it if your
mental game collapses, you canhave the most physicality out of
anyone and your game is justgonna collapse in general and
and you have nobody else thereto pick you up, it's just you in
front of everybody else goingoh I'm gone.
If you have a bad moment on ateam, you can kind of have

(48:47):
others kind of hide you a littlebit.
You can kind of get yourselfback in the game that way.
But the best coaches in golfAren't world-class golfers,
they're just phenomenal coachesbecause they can see things well
.

Brad (48:59):
The best coaches and most things, or are not the best Of
anything it's very rare thatthey are the best.

Martin (49:07):
Yeah, they.
I mean, I can only speak interms of like the Premier League
and and yeah, well, who's made?

Dylan (49:13):
who's made a run at it?
Like who's I'm trying to thinkof, like last generation, it's
made around so the one that's isNeville.

Martin (49:19):
No, no, it's a Savio Lanza who what about lampard?
Didn't like a golf.
He crashed and burned.
That's what I thought, butSavio Lanza who coaches for Peps
.
Pep wasn't a great player,though.

Brad (49:34):
No, but I mean yeah, because you're talking about
like, if you're talking aboutlike 12 world-class players and
I just saw this the other daybut people define world-classes
otherwise, but are they gonna goon to be an amazing coach.
No, they may go on coach ifyou're a world-class player.

Dylan (49:51):
Let's be honest, you're probably a little selfish and
you're probably not meant forthat team aspect of coaching.
Well, he really wants to do it?
Oh, no, not that boxer.
He's a broody little.

Martin (50:01):
He's got.
I mean I truthfully he knowshe's got some a long road ahead
of him.
He might, but but also.

Brad (50:10):
That's.
That's two different skill sets.

Dylan (50:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's people managing.
You know so, and this happensin business a lot, yeah, is
You'll take the best salesman,right, you'll take the best
engineer and you'll be likeyou're so good at your job.
It's the same thing to teach.
I'm going to promote you to bemanager and you're like whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa.
They're really good at theirjob for various reasons.

(50:35):
And you know what?
Maybe they will become a verygood manager and a very good
mentor.
But we see it so many timeswhere it's like, no, that
they're not meant to be doingthat.
They're meant to be doing theirjob to the best of their
abilities.

Brad (50:48):
It's like a genius that you want to be a teacher Well,
but there's also we can, we can?

Martin (50:55):
we can a little bit on a tangent, but I do feel like
it's this issue of puttingpeople into boxes.
Like you're great at this.

Dylan (51:02):
Yeah, like so we're gonna move here.

Martin (51:05):
So, but why can't there be an amalgamation of both?
Like how do you create that newrange?

Dylan (51:11):
Both.
I think the military's got tofigure it out and I've kind of
there's nothing wrong with themilitary, no, but I don't.
Here we go.

Martin (51:23):
Now I said it you.

Dylan (51:25):
They have a non commissioned officer, a very
high ranking non officer, on a,you know, special forces.
They'll have a very highranking non officer and that guy
will get paired with theCommanding officer like an
actual officer and the officeris there, from a structural
standpoint going.
These are the needs of the Navyor the army.

(51:47):
This is what we're getting fromthe chain of command and they
work with the.
They work with the Noncommissioned officer or the the
highest ranking, you know noncommissioned individual and
they'll be like, hey, from acorporate, and you know, we'll
treat the greater military asthe corporate structure.
This is what we're getting fromthe top of the food chain.
And then they'll work withthose guys and they'll be like,

(52:08):
okay, yeah, but your men aregonna say this and these are
gonna be their issues and thisis what we run into when we've
run ops like this before andthey work together, I mean the.
They'll say the best teams areones that have an awesome NCO
and an awesome officer that worktogether To be like, okay, we
have a common ground here.
And I think that's probablyfrom a corporate level.
It's okay, you have this,you're the manager of this

(52:29):
division, but you have thisawesome technical, so you know
lead as well, they're gonna,they're gonna help run the
engineers with you and obviouslyyou have business goals you
need to get.
So it's it's putting peopletogether sometimes to kind of
co-lead.

Brad (52:45):
That maybe that hybrid, but they also do probably a
decent job of separating thosepeople into Into the correct
boxes to begin with yeah, andthe boxes may be.
Listen, you're really like thatwould be like me at work like
I'm not management materialright.

Dylan (53:03):
So it's like you really take care of yourself.
Thank you, Geez Brad.

Brad (53:06):
Yeah, I'm learning.
I love you, though, speak tothe hand.
So so there are.
There are like the grunts thatit's like Tell me what to do,
I'm gonna go do it, I'm gonnakick doors, that's what I want
to do, like this is my deal.
And then you get into the upperspecial forces and they're like
, hey, wait a second, let'sthink about.

(53:26):
You know, is this really a goodidea?
Can can we go about this adifferent way?
Can we problem solve this?
Can we whatever?
So those are, there's a lot ofdifferent boxes that that people
can fit into, and so I think,through a military standpoint,
they try to do that as well interms of whatever.
So All right.

Dylan (53:47):
So that was the feedback talking about practice.

Brad (53:50):
Thank you, thank you, ted.
Repetition with reflection andrefinement is the last one.
So this is where the grit partreally comes into, because
You're gonna have to dosomething over and over again
that you are not good at.
That you were also trying toget better at to reach whatever
your goals are, and and what?
Just this?

(54:11):
It's David, it's David, I knowit.
Fucking.
Interrupt me one more time,I'll interrupt you.

Dylan (54:19):
A long road ahead of us tonight, boys.

Brad (54:24):
So it's repetition every time you do it.
What did I do?
I just saw a clip the other dayas a dude that was like I don't
know, it was 60s probablyshooting baskets.
He's at the free throw line andhe's talking to a whole 100,
200 kids that are in thegymnasium and this guy's just
feeding them basketballs andhe's just fucking drilling them

(54:46):
one.

Dylan (54:46):
Right after the while he's talking to him he's like,
if you want to become theAugustana basketball coach was
like that the old I forget theold head coach, the men's, he,
he did same thing like, but itwas very much this every time
you shoot the ball, what did youdo?

Brad (55:02):
Did you make it?
Okay, how do I keep doing thatso that I can repeat that motion
whenever I want to on commandRight.
And so she talks about thingsbeing.
What does she say?
Something about hard thingsthat you can't do consciously
becoming easy things that you dounconsciously.
That's the point of deliberatepractice.

(55:24):
So when stuff Curry steps backand hits a three like he's not
thinking about it, he's thinkingabout it the whole time when
he's practicing, but when he'sin a game it's reactionary, it's
just automatic and that comesfrom all that time.
Okay, no, I pushed that one alittle too hard, so you just
learn over and over and overagain, and that's what that

(55:46):
repetition is.
So can you, can you withstandthe boredom of shooting 5,000,
three pointers, and can you alsofocus on those 5,000 to refine
your movement to get it to whereit needs to be?
That's a big part of grit.

Dylan (56:02):
Absolutely Something that triggered the memory for me.
I forget which golf coach butthey talk about.
When you make a great shot,you're excited and you're like,
awesome made a great shot.
And at the end of the day, weall know we probably learn more
from failure than we do success.
And he goes.

(56:23):
But what do you do when youmake?
What do you?
What do?

Martin (56:26):
you know you're going to disagree.
That's like to hope so.

Dylan (56:30):
It depends on the person depends on the person, but when
you make a bad shot in golf,your immediate reaction for the
vast majority golfers is youimmediately get mad, you get
upset and you're not focusing onwhat you just did.
You're focusing on the badoutcome which is I can't believe
.
I just put my ball on the leftside.
Yeah, that, and like you fuckinginstead of, instead of just

(56:52):
taking a step back and sayingwhy did that happen?
Did I rush my shot?
Did I, did I did I feel?
Was I not ready when I took mybackswing?
It's, it's and it's not over,analyzing while you're playing
the game, but it's taking notesand understand.
Okay, why did I do that?
What do I think led to that?
And then not making broad,sweeping changes, but taking

(57:15):
note so that you can you canidentify those factors.

Martin (57:20):
Yeah, like you, the nail in the head there, because
that's like you have to be ableto balance out analysis,
paralysis, because you can overanalyze the situation which I,
as golf before?

Brad (57:32):
yeah, and that's this whole fucking episode right,
it's you're.

Martin (57:35):
So you just like, uh, and you still do a.
Do we have a button for that?
We will after this.

Brad (57:42):
I'm sad.

Martin (57:47):
Or how do you, you know, continue, persevere and reflect
on like okay, this is whatwe're around the step?
The is the grit part.

Brad (57:57):
That's the grit part.

Dylan (57:59):
Hey, you're gonna get and that is, and it is, the grit
part.

Brad (58:02):
It's because you're gonna get into that uncomfortable
headspace of like.
I don't want to fucking thinkabout this anymore.

Dylan (58:07):
I'll be.
I'll be guilty when I'm playingreally good golf and if all of
a sudden I have a bad hole, it'shard for me to forget it, as
much as I want to be like,that's behind you, whatever, and
you'll stew and ruminate on itand it's.
It's the grit of saying itdoesn't matter, I've got 50, 60,
70, 100 more golf games aheadof me.

(58:27):
You just took a, you just got alesson, and be happy for that
lesson and let's move on andkeep playing.
And the next time around,understand that when you get in
a really good headspace, you geta little lack of days of cool,
you get a little lazy.
You know, if you get four goodholes in a row, you get a little
lazy.
So the next time you get fourgood holes in a row, don't just

(58:48):
kind of just be like, oh, I'vegot this.
Really keep your game focused.

Brad (58:52):
There is an also there's an extension of that that they
talk about, and I think Ericksonand Chickset me hi, come from
different flow yeah, from theflow state, and so the enormous
amount of deliberate practice ismore likely to lend you into a

(59:14):
flow state, because now you haveoverdone these things to the
point where they do literallybecome unconscious, and when you
talk about anybody that's in aflow state, doing music or
sports or writing or that's anykind of work vintage Tiger.

Dylan (59:30):
Woods yeah the moment that guy got a lead.
There was a couple factors andhe knew those factors.
One factor was the Tiger effect.
He knew if he had a leadeveryone will women was getting
out.
He knew the whole field wasgoing to be chasing him and he
knew the whole field was goingto be overcompensating every

(59:50):
shot because they knew if theyfucked up they weren't going to
get Tiger.
And Tiger never makes a mistake, it's Iceman and Top Gun.
Yeah, tiger never makes amistake.
So if I make a mistake, yeah,yeah, you got to do the teet
drop.
That was really good actually.
Oh, but then Tiger also, thathappened enough, where he and he

(01:00:12):
, in his own words, beat ballson the range long enough.
Yeah, that he knew.
Yeah, they're going to selfdestruct and I'm just going to
go play my game and I can goafter it, but I I have full
confidence in where I'm at,because I've hit enough balls to
know that.
I know it's going to, it'sgoing to go this way, but that's
that.
That's that.

Brad (01:00:32):
Tom Daly story or the John Daly story Sorry, the John Daly
story where they played aroundand it was like a Friday or
Saturday, and he's in theclubhouse and they're drinking
and other guys are drinking youknow that whole deal and Tiger
walks by and he's like, hey,tiger, come over here and have a
drink with us.
And he's like, nah, I'm goingto go, I'm going to go hit some
balls.
And so you know, an hour and ahalf later Tiger walks back

(01:00:55):
through the clubhouse again he'slike, hey, come over here and
have a drink with us.
And Tiger's like, nah, I'mgoing to go work out.
So he goes and works out.
And then he's coming backthrough and he's like now we're
like two bottles of crown in youknow, and, and he's like Tiger
comes back through and so whatthe fuck are you guys doing in
here?
It's like we got to play againtomorrow.
And he's like, yeah, come havea drink with us.

(01:01:15):
You know, and, and John.

Dylan (01:01:18):
Peterson's all for now.
John Daly goes.

Brad (01:01:21):
Yeah, he might be.
He goes and I only rememberthat time because I went out the
next day and I beat him.
But he goes 99 times out of 100.
He wipes the floor with mebecause he's just so into it.

(01:01:42):
He's just he's hit so manyballs Like everything is just
golf digested.

Dylan (01:01:46):
Yeah Took a picture of his hands, the other day and
he's had a close or a hookedgrip.
Which is you put your?
You put your weak hand, indexfinger, on top of your strong
hand, pinky, and they'repermanently disformed.
They have bends in them fromhim holding them together on top
of a golf club for so many.

Brad (01:02:08):
But in terms of stretch goals, like do you think he just
goes?
You think he just goes adriving range and like hits a
driver?
No, it's like, no, he you watch, you watch those guys and
you're like you're bought yourtwo feet behind a tree.
Like how the fuck are you goingto?
It's like, oh yeah, well, I'vepracticed a shot a bunch.

Dylan (01:02:24):
Talk about stretch goals, the guy already arguably the
best golfer ever.
You know there will always be adebate between him and Jack and
at the end of the day Jack willget the most majors.
It's.

Brad (01:02:36):
Jack.

Dylan (01:02:36):
Nicholas Jack has more majors than Tiger.
Tiger has the most PJ tourwhich is tight.
And I that actually that's verycommon by the way.
Yeah the bear.
But you guy gets in a car crash, almost loses his leg.
The surgeon's exact quote isthe only reason this guy still

(01:03:00):
has his leg is because his TigerWoods.
Oh, if it was anyone other thanTiger Woods, we would have
amputated.
And the surgery team wasliterally like we're not going
to cut Tiger, we're not going tobe the team that cuts Tiger
Woods's leg off, and now his,his stretch goals.
I'm going to go playcompetitive golf again, and he's
still keeping up.

Brad (01:03:21):
But what if they did amputate it and then he was like
the best amputee golf foreverand they took that away from him
?

Dylan (01:03:30):
Is there a division for that?

Martin (01:03:32):
That actually might solve.
I mean, yeah, he had ACLsurgery, so that, oh, I thought
you were going to say it likeMike playing fielders.

Brad (01:03:42):
Yeah, when's?

Dylan (01:03:43):
it When's it us open with a torn ACL?
That was when he told Stevie tofuck off.
That's a great story, His caddy.
Let's not tell us.
You know.
Okay, never mind.

Brad (01:03:55):
Was this caddy check?

Dylan (01:03:56):
No play, hit the button.

Martin (01:03:57):
I'm feeling it right now .

Dylan (01:03:59):
That was feedback to his caddy.
Yeah, fuck you, stevie.

Brad (01:04:03):
All of that.
All of that was knowing thebasic science.

Dylan (01:04:07):
That was basic science it wasn't.

Brad (01:04:09):
It was a whole bunch of shit that you guys started
talking about.

Dylan (01:04:11):
It's good though it's good, it's really not.
But whatever, it's fine.

Brad (01:04:17):
Second tip Key points, second tip.
So she's got three tips.
Second tip is to makedeliberate practice a habit.
How do you do that?
Okay, martin, how do you do?
That you tell Brad to get up at530 in the morning and we're
going to go fucking work out.
And then sometimes he says no,and then, but most of the time
he wakes up and doesn't want towork out and goes anyways.

Martin (01:04:35):
Well, you know why you don't want to go because you
know, because it's 530 in themorning.
No, it's not even that.
It's because the fact that I'mfucking driving to your house to
pick your ass up.
You're like, oh, the ride'scoming, I better fucking get in
the car.

Dylan (01:04:48):
Responsibility is a bitch yeah it sucks, doesn't it Brad?

Brad (01:04:50):
So deliberate practice is because it is tiring and
intentionally hard it's.
It's something that you don'tnecessarily want to do.

Dylan (01:04:58):
I would argue that it's not that hard for you because
you have other people lookingout for you.
It's hard for him to get up andget in the car.
It's not hard for you.

Brad (01:05:06):
It's not hard for him.
He's a fucking psycho.

Dylan (01:05:09):
Well, it's great.
It's what great's called.
I don't think so.

Brad (01:05:13):
I don't think so.
I don't think that word everappears in this book.
Okay, what psycho?
Yeah, I don't think so.

Martin (01:05:19):
Maybe once I mean no, she said mob bosses, ted Bundy
and yeah, I mean, but Ted Bundywas driving in a beetle tan
beetle.

Brad (01:05:27):
Yeah, but grit is doing something that, like you, don't
necessarily love doing over andover again, and I'm pretty sure
that he did like it.

Dylan (01:05:35):
Kemper talk about that though Like he didn't like it
afterwards, and then all of asudden like flip back to him
enjoying it and then he that'swhen he'd go kill again, are you
?

Brad (01:05:43):
trying to make him a reasonable person.

Dylan (01:05:44):
No, I'm not.

Brad (01:05:45):
Okay, I don't know.
So so set up, set up atimeframe, a location, have
somebody that's going to youknow, call you bad names If you
don't do what you're supposed tobe doing.
The damn car, brad, yeah,whatever, whatever it takes.
So, because it's hard set upthings that make it easier right

(01:06:07):
, and everybody the greats dothis and she talks about like
the greats are also realistic.
But they're.
But they're also not specificin what they do.
It's not like you have to getup at four o'clock and you have
to do this, but they do have setroutines.
They've set routines, yes.

Martin (01:06:27):
But, the greats at executing this procedure.
They might not be great people,though.

Brad (01:06:35):
No, no, no, no.
I mean the greats of all timeAgain, whatever you're talking,
about.

Martin (01:06:41):
Sure.

Dylan (01:06:42):
We're not saying they might be so focused on one goal
that that makes them a shittyhuman being.
He's saying they're not greatnecessarily great like
personalities.

Brad (01:06:51):
Oh, what you wanna talk shit about Michael Jordan?
Go for it.
No, lay it out.
No, what do you got?
What's the?

Martin (01:06:56):
second part.

Dylan (01:07:00):
People have distractions in their lives, yeah, so you
need to be realistic about it,though, and deliberate practice
doesn't mean I'm going to gofrom doing absolutely nothing in
my life to having a full sevenday regimented routine.
It's understanding that.
I have no work, I have this, Ihave that, I have kids.

(01:07:21):
But then saying, you know, onTuesdays and Thursdays, between
there's a pattern between thesehours that I don't really have a
lot most weeks and you go okay,those are my no go days, those
are days that I will notsacrifice those two time slots
for this goal I'm achieving.
It's not saying, oh, I'mcommitting to seven days a week

(01:07:43):
for this and this and this, andthis is gonna be my grit session
, because what that does isyou're going to have something
that's more important than thatcome up and that's your easy out
, and then, the moment you giveyourself an easy out, the grit's
gone.
And so grit is you're notgiving yourself excuses.
You know these time slots areavailable and there's no excuse
for you not to hit those.

Brad (01:08:04):
But this is also you're not gonna, you don't want to
overextend yourself, becausewe've already talked about the
timeframe of deliberate practice, so you can't be like that's
one mode.

Dylan (01:08:13):
That's one mode.

Brad (01:08:13):
I'm gonna do it for five hours.

Dylan (01:08:14):
No, you're not, you're not gonna do it for five hours.
That's one modal, though.
Yeah, or modality, I should say.
So, like in golf you could goputt for an hour.
You could go hit balls on thedriving range for an hour.
You could go chip for an hour.
Those are different modalities.
Soccer you could do strategyfor an hour.
You could do defense for anhour.

(01:08:35):
You could do long kicks for anhour.
I mean there's differentmodalities there.

Brad (01:08:39):
No, there is, and oftentimes they will do that.
They will probably work on aprofessional, or you can even
look at it as a writer.

Martin (01:08:51):
They may have.
They have a man that works withwood, different oh let's just
talk about no.

Brad (01:08:56):
Okay, Can we get to the third tip?

Dylan (01:08:59):
No, we're not done yet.
We're not done with modalities.
Here we are.

Brad (01:09:03):
We're not done with wood.
I didn't even write modalitieson it.
You made that up.
Okay, crossfit.

Dylan (01:09:09):
Wow, say it, it's not from CrossFit.
What's?

Brad (01:09:12):
the tagline so easy, Chuck E Cheese can do it.

Dylan (01:09:15):
No, that's not it.

Martin (01:09:17):
Bummer.

Brad (01:09:18):
I don't know that one.
I don't think that's a realtagline.
It is not.
It is to change the way youexperience deliberate practice.
So this is where, maybe,thinking about it as I don't
know, the back of a T-shirt youknow, oh, I know Finance Bros
Think about it like a financebro.
Okay, okay.

(01:09:38):
So I'm gonna do shit so hardthat other people aren't even
gonna think about doing it.

Dylan (01:09:45):
Like that?
Didn't Alex Ramose say that?
Who's that?
What?
I'm just teasing.
God, I hate you.

Brad (01:09:58):
So this comes from a swimming coach, Terry Laughlin.
While deliberate practice ishard, it can also feel wonderful
, but you need to change the wayyou think about it.
If you try, you can learn toembrace challenge rather than
fear it.
You can do all the thingsyou're supposed to do during
deliberate practice a clear goal, feedback, all of it and still

(01:10:18):
feel great while you're doing it.
It's all about, in the moment,self-awareness without judgment.
It's about relieving yourselfof the judgment that gets in the
way of enjoying the challenge.
So, knowing that it's achallenge and that you are most
likely initially gonna start befailing at it, but aware that

(01:10:41):
this is part of the process thatyou're working towards and the
overcoming challenges feels good.
And she talks about this interms of like babies and
toddlers, so like everything isa fucking challenge to them.
You know they don't complainabout it.
They don't know any better, butnot only do they not know any

(01:11:01):
better, but they are encouragedto overcome those things.
Oh, yeah, good job.
Yeah, first step, let's go.

Martin (01:11:09):
And then all they don't know, they just know to oh like,
oh, I think I can stand up, oh,no, I'm standing up and oh, I
am, but also there's a reactionto it.

Brad (01:11:21):
So if a baby's trying to stand up and it falls on its ass
and the parents are, like, Iwas gonna say Fucking idiot.

Martin (01:11:27):
You can fucking stand up , even you stupid babies.
You can say Tarzan.

Dylan (01:11:32):
What about Tarzan?

Brad (01:11:33):
What about Tarzan?

Martin (01:11:34):
What about Mowgli?

Dylan (01:11:35):
What about Mowgli?
They didn't have anybody else.

Martin (01:11:39):
Tarzan's mom was a gorilla.

Dylan (01:11:41):
And then Mowgli had a bear.

Brad (01:11:43):
Are we even talking about real life?
It could be possible.
Oh, it's possible.
It's possible that a guy israised by animals and talks
perfect English.
Georgia the Jungle Hit the bluebutton.
Georgia, the Jungle, hit theblue button.
I know it's the blue button.
Could be the red button.
Nope, yellow.

Martin (01:11:59):
I'm sad.
Orange, green, blue no, I saidblue already purple.

Dylan (01:12:04):
I can't believe I can edit this one.

Brad (01:12:08):
I had high hopes for all of this.

Dylan (01:12:09):
This is good.
It's good, it's fun.
It's not good.

Brad (01:12:12):
Simidana, just tell me what I'm doing wrong, okay now
it's a purple button.

Martin (01:12:17):
Oh, what is your scratch goal?

Brad (01:12:20):
To do this all by myself.

Martin (01:12:22):
Oh.

Dylan (01:12:23):
Go for it.

Martin (01:12:24):
I'll give you the equipment.
I don't even care, even thesambo.

Dylan (01:12:27):
You can have the sambo oh .

Brad (01:12:29):
Where's the button?
Not blue anymore, because Ichanged the blue button.

Dylan (01:12:34):
Getting back to this, it's all about the, it's all
about, in the moment, self.
I think self-awareness is thebiggest thing here.
I keep I go back to thisBecause people that aren't
self-aware aren't going to grow,because they can't take the
feedback, whether it's good ornegative.
Cause, if it's if you, if youwhat?

Brad (01:12:51):
deliberate practice?
No, not only that, a lot ofpeople aren't doing this,
because she's guessing that mostpeople are not doing any sort
of deliberate practice in theirlife?

Martin (01:13:03):
Well, but Is that out of zero?
Is that out of fear?

Dylan (01:13:05):
Is that out of or is that ?

Martin (01:13:08):
out of it's probably a bunch of things, but it goes
back to when I, when I was on adifferent episode the fact that
we have a tough time doingself-reflection.
We have an extremely hard timedoing self-reflection, and this
is what it's about.

Brad (01:13:25):
Unless you don't.

Martin (01:13:26):
Unless you don't unless you know how to and then you
have crippling depression andanxiety.

Dylan (01:13:29):
It's great.
Well, or else We'll just stickaround for next episode.

Brad (01:13:33):
I'm sad to see that people are so sad.

Dylan (01:13:36):
I see that everybody's just-.

Martin (01:13:40):
Where am I today?
Sorry.

Dylan (01:13:43):
Not trying to kill it, it's self-reflection's hard.

Martin (01:13:49):
I'm talking about practice.
It's tough, self-reflection istough, because it's like where
do you go from here?
And you're still trying to pushyourself to improve right, to
continue to do Kaizen.

Dylan (01:14:00):
There's a dichotomy, because our culture emphasizes
competition and so it's easy topeople are almost have to sell
themselves in this world.
Social media really puts that.

Brad (01:14:14):
I'm an influencer?

Dylan (01:14:14):
I'm doing this, I have to .
Are you going to your job andyou have to sell it?
You're trying to sell yourvalue or whatever it is, but I
have some prime examples ofindividuals that were phenomenal
athletes.

Brad (01:14:32):
You keep pointing to me.

Dylan (01:14:33):
No but you know that because you were there across of
it.

Brad (01:14:36):
You used to.

Dylan (01:14:37):
They were phenomenal athletes and they just didn't
have very good technique.
But their athleticism allowedthem to outwork that shitty
technique, but that was nevergoing to allow them to get to
the next level.
So they needed to take an egocheck that's an average and
reduce and go slower with theright technique so they could
become faster in the end game.

(01:14:58):
And that's what people don't doin this world, for any modality
.
I'm going to use it again justto piss you off or sector of
their lives, which is.
I already know how to do this.
I want to do what I'm already atthis level and it's like take
five steps back and I know thisis really hard for you.

(01:15:18):
It's going to be slower thanyou've ever done it before and
it's going to seem like a burden.
But once you get those basicsdone again, or relearned, and
you've improved, it's going toget exponentially better.
And that's the hardest partright now for a company that I'm
working for is we're doing thesmall to medium size transition,
which my argument is that's thehardest transition a company

(01:15:39):
will make.
Medium to large isn't thatdifficult.
It just is a bigger cashinjection.
Small to medium is all hands ondeck.
To now, we have formalprocesses.
This is your lane.
This is your lane but at thesame time, we can't become so
process centric that we forgetabout the customer.
So there's a balance that youhave to learn, which is your
pendulum swings so vast and hard, so quickly, but it is.

(01:16:02):
We have to unlearn some things,to relearn some things, to be
able to go farther.
And why is your brain hurting,brad?

Brad (01:16:11):
I think you just gave a real life example of a finance
bro.
Good Proud of you.
Or they said it's easier tomake a billion dollars than it
is to make a million dollars,and now you're going to agree
with them.
How did I agree with them?

Dylan (01:16:25):
Structurally I agree with them.
Structurally it's easier to gofrom a medium company to a large
company, that is, from a smallto medium.

Brad (01:16:30):
Okay, well, now you're a finance bro.
Oh my God.

Dylan (01:16:33):
This is why you're a one man shop.
You're going to be included onthat episode.

Brad (01:16:37):
Good, can't wait.
So talk about practice, man.

Martin (01:16:41):
I'm really sad.

Brad (01:16:45):
Hit the practice button.
Hot takes, no, no more.
Okay, no more, hot takes.
Hit the practice button.
We talking about practice.
You understand me.
Practice, that's right, ted.
Practice, it's where youcontrol what happens.

(01:17:05):
Do more deliberate practice.

Dylan (01:17:08):
Do you have any other advice other than just go do
things?
Do you have any?

Brad (01:17:12):
how to easy.
I don't know what did we justdo for an?

Martin (01:17:14):
hour.
Yeah, we covered a lot of greatcontent.
It's we did, we did.

Dylan (01:17:20):
You guys will call this terribly ADHD.
You hate it.

Brad (01:17:23):
No, it's good.
No, it's not.
You know what?
Don't do anything.
Be a piece of shit.
I don't care.

Dylan (01:17:30):
You can tell we're brad Brett Hedlifrey.
This whole thing is stupidDeliberate practice.
It starts with understandingyour weaknesses, seeking out
your weaknesses, understandingthat that's not a negative thing
, and then attack them.
It's that simple.
Why didn't?

Martin (01:17:51):
I say that I don't know, but also, at the same time,
develop an open mindset toattack them.

Dylan (01:17:58):
She had to write 300 pages on that.

Martin (01:18:00):
Yeah.

Dylan (01:18:00):
I know Six minutes at TED Talk.
That's what you get.
Thanks, guys.

Martin (01:18:05):
You're still here.
It's over, go home.

Brad (01:18:18):
Go.