The Flame of Reason: Logical Fallacies

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Ever found yourself tongue-tied in a debate or fallen prey to an argument you couldn't counter? Fear not! We're here to turn the tables with a masterclass in critical reasoning, courtesy of Christor Stumark's illuminating insights. Sharpen your wit and join us as we navigate the treacherous waters of logical fallacies, from the notorious ad hominem to the deceptive sunk cost snare. With our guest, the ever-astute Martin Ruthless Villain, we inject a hearty dose of humor into dissecting these argumentative faux pas and how they pervade our everyday exchanges.

Who knew that even C-SPAN could become a backdrop for comedy or that children mastering technology could lead us down a hilariously absurd slippery slope? In this episode, not only do we revel in the lighter side of logical blunders, but we also embark on a quest for truth and the pursuit of knowledge. We swap stories about tech-savvy kids, debates gone awry, and the bewildering realm of indulgences, all while keeping our feet firmly planted in the realm of rational thought. Let's face it, who doesn't enjoy a good chuckle while grooming their grey matter?

Wrapping up, we don't just preach the art of conversation—we practice it with an earnest focus on listening, questioning, and understanding. Emotional intelligence takes the spotlight as we delve into the finesse of navigating discussions with a cool head and a warm heart. Before we part ways, we can't help but tease an upcoming escapade with none other than Jordan Peterson and the promise of sun-soaked adventures in Mexico. Buckle up for an episode that's equal parts enlightening and entertaining—your journey to becoming a more judicious debater starts here!

Episode Transcript

Brad (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of Terribly Unoblivious.
On this episode we start partone with our book by Christor
Stumark, to Light the Flame ofReason.
Today we get into what iscritical reasoning, what are
some common logical fallaciesthat we and other people use on
a regular basis and how to avoidthem, and finally we end with
how do we nurture reason, whichincludes how to check our ego

(00:23):
and argue with good faitharguments.
So we hope you like part one ofTo Light the Flame of Reason.

Martin (00:29):
Yep, I said it before and I'll say it again Life moves
pretty fast.
You don't stop and look aroundonce in a while.
You could miss it.

Dylan (00:48):
This is why you just hit the record button, because
that's how we start things here.

Brad (00:52):
It starts with all the good stuff.

Dylan (00:53):
Two cans, pelicans and Jack, hanna and Storks.

Martin (00:58):
And the premise Babies.

Brad (01:00):
Oh Jesus, Guinness.

Dylan (01:02):
Guinness was the premise, not the babies, that's right.
You in a good mood, brad, nowNope, okay.
Welcome to another Mondayepisode Sunday, but it'll be
released on a Monday.

Brad (01:15):
Oh well, aren't we up to date?
Oh, that sounded good for thestart.
Can't do that?
Yes, you can.

Dylan (01:21):
Before.
It lets everyone know what'shappening.
It gives contextual.

Brad (01:27):
That was on the soundboard .
That's a fake can.

Dylan (01:30):
That'd be.
Actually, that's a really goodidea.

Brad (01:32):
I like it A lot of releasing in nitrogen.
Oh, we have a third voice hereagain.

Dylan (01:36):
Oh, the only guest we're capable of getting.
Yeah, martin Routy-Villavan.
No, no.

Brad (01:45):
Okay, ruthless villain, ruthless villain.

Dylan (01:47):
Martin Routless villain.
That's what we're going withFair.
What's our subject today, Brad?

Brad (01:52):
Well, today is more about how to not be stupid, oh Jesus.

Dylan (01:59):
I sense a theme.

Brad (02:00):
Yeah Well, if anything, we're all trying to be less
stupid.
Generally speaking, yes, thearc swinging in the less stupid
range With blips we have blips.

Dylan (02:16):
Yeah, everybody's got them, kind of like you.

Brad (02:19):
I got a lot of blips.

Dylan (02:21):
So that's for sure.
In more detailed terms, besidesbeing less stupid, how would
you describe today's episode?

Brad (02:30):
Oh well, way back in the way, way back machine.
I don't even know when wetalked about this.
Maybe around the time wediscussed range, I had got the.

Dylan (02:40):
Oh, it was when we were making episodes but we weren't
releasing them.
So it's not like no, no, no itwas when I was Brad's frustrated
.

Brad (02:47):
Oh, brad's frustrated, that's what it was, because I
had just gone to the bookstore,but you're always frustrated.
Yeah, but that one was named.

Dylan (02:52):
That's the punch line.
Yeah, that's the punch line,brad's always frustrated, that's
true.

Martin (02:56):
Hot takes Brad's frustrated.

Brad (02:58):
Thank you.
This is now a Friday episode.

Dylan (03:01):
We can blip that part out .

Brad (03:02):
We.
You're not going to do that.

Dylan (03:05):
Okay.

Brad (03:06):
To light the flame of reason was the book that I'd
picked up.

Martin (03:10):
Isn't there a story behind that, though, Like as
you're cruising the aisles, yousaw a bunch of like oh, let's
see.

Brad (03:16):
Yeah, it was very like it was a religion.
It was a religion.

Dylan (03:19):
It was a religion versus philosophy, yeah, and it was,
yeah, like some fly Many times arecipe minor from a local
college was like this will befunny.

Martin (03:28):
Yeah, but you said there were like two or three rows of
like.

Brad (03:31):
Jesus and here, oh no, there's like half the store is
like that.
And then there's If you laidbooks out on the table in front
of us, that's the number of likephilosophy, and the tarot card
section was like two or threetimes bigger.
I'm not.

Dylan (03:47):
That's not, Joe.
They're decorative, and alreadythat I mean granted, they're
like overall bigger.

Brad (03:53):
You know, in their packaging, I guess so.

Dylan (03:56):
I almost bought a tarot card advent calendar when I was,
when I was in.

Martin (04:03):
How's that work, north Carolina, I have no idea.
I just opened it up and you'relike, oh, I die.

Dylan (04:07):
We're at a bookstore and it was it was really funny it
was just really funny and I'mlike this would be a good good
gift for somebody.

Martin (04:17):
Yeah, I preferably on the religious, not so
open-minded side.

Dylan (04:20):
But what?

Martin (04:21):
if there was a tarot card advent calendar, what?

Brad (04:27):
did you just say.
What did you just say?
What did you just say?
What did you just say?
Oh my God.

Martin (04:34):
Why did you bring me?

Dylan (04:35):
I was just gonna, I don't know, I don't know.

Brad (04:37):
This is what's happening right now.

Dylan (04:39):
So introduction to critical reasoning, that's the
name of the game.

Brad (04:44):
So this book is very dense , but also somewhat accessible
and Shut up.

Dylan (04:56):
Alexa, you can't just peek the mic that way.
Oh sorry, it's gonna.
Now I'm gonna have to spend 10minutes doing that and not get
yelled at me.
I have to get this episode outfor tomorrow, so please don't do
that.
She yelled at me first Okay,he's gonna cut this too.

Martin (05:08):
No, he doesn't.
Oh, okay, let's go.

Dylan (05:11):
Let's keep moving.

Brad (05:13):
If you guys quit interrupting me.
It's our household features.
That would be amazing.
Can we all agree that criticalreasoning and logic in general
may not be the sexiest topic toever talk about?

Martin (05:28):
How are we gonna make it sexy then?

Brad (05:30):
Well, wait till you see what I got on.

Dylan (05:36):
Is it through the loom?
No, is it no?
Do you have the Avengers serieson Cornucopia?
Yes, yeah, I was just.
I miss character underwear.

Brad (05:47):
There's nothing that said you gotta stop.

Dylan (05:50):
Did it?
Cameron Diaz and Charlie'sAngels have character underwear
on?
I think she did.
No one watched that movie whynot.

Brad (05:57):
Did you watch that movie, martin?
Yeah, I did, wow, okay, well,hey, guess what?
Put it on the list.

Dylan (06:03):
All right, list is long you can take that one off and
not distinguished.

Brad (06:08):
No, it's not distinguished at all, eh, sometimes.
So today we're gonna talkbriefly about what critical
reasoning is critical thinking?
And, more specifically, go intocommon logical fallacies, so
the ways that most of us areculpable of arguing in a false,

(06:34):
not what was I say?
Not honest sense.
Does that make sense?
Gamesmanship A little bit, andI think a lot of people do it
without knowing that they'redoing it.
Oh, he knows he's doing it, butthat's, we all do it.

Dylan (06:52):
We do.

Brad (06:53):
And the more we've talked about this, we'll get to the one
that we've talked aboutextensively in some past
episodes.
It's easier to identify it whenyou are someone that you're
arguing with is doing it, andyou can kind of hit the brakes
and maybe attack that a littlebit differently than you would
otherwise, because a lot ofthese tend to get you riled up

(07:15):
emotionally, I think, becausetypically the person that's
introducing them doesn't havethe actual knowledge or facts
needed to reasonably argue apoint, and so you start bringing
in these other things that areunrelated or emotional or have
nothing to do with what you'reactually talking about.

Dylan (07:36):
And you should definitely do this while having alcohol
around, because that will notelicit any more emotion.
Preferably, yeah, thanksgiving,christmas, even Easter if
you're lucky.

Brad (07:47):
I prefer Easter arguments, actually, and just overall roll
the dice to the synapses.
Well, I mean it's typicallysunny outside, the weather's
nice, I mean everybody's feelinggood, and that's when I really
like to take a shit on everybody.

Dylan (08:00):
Just the correlation there is that Brad's come out of
his winter depression at thatpoint and you start hearing to
see the light again.
Yeah, seasonal depressions.

Brad (08:10):
Make it stop.

Martin (08:12):
Make the light stay, get that vitamin D buddy.
It's like Gollum, can't see thelight, all right.

Brad (08:20):
So, rational thinking, and let's just say that if you make
it through this episode and youhave a lot of questions, good,
because this is going to be thetip of the iceberg in terms of
some of the stuff that we'regoing to talk about with this
particular book and even some ofthe things that we go through

(08:40):
today.
There's a lot more nuance.
So this is the very, very basic, rudimentary, some definitions
and starting at the bottom andexamples and things like that.

Martin (08:50):
So now we're here.

Brad (08:51):
Yes, started at the bottom .
Now we're at the top, now we'rehere.
Why does he say now we're here,present.
Started at the bottom.

Dylan (08:59):
Now we're here, yeah, but he could still be at the bottom
.
But it's Drake, he's not.
Yeah, oh, that's Drake sayinghe's got a half a million dollar
black Onyx bathtub that wascarved out of one piece.
Nobody cares, it's beautiful.

Brad (09:13):
All right.
So this is.
And the other interesting thingI found was this book is
referred to as the Flame ofReason, and remember this guy's
Swedish and Do we trust him?

Dylan (09:27):
then yeah, yes, okay, is that correct?

Martin (09:30):
or a translation of that what Flame?

Brad (09:33):
of Reason, the Flame of Reason.
I don't know, but in this titleit's to light the Flame of
Reason.
So it's almost like they pushedthis to America and was like,
hey, you guys have to light thecandle first because it's not
going yet.
It's like everywhere else we'regoing to talk about the candle
that is lit.
That's one way I interpreted it.

Dylan (09:55):
Okay.

Martin (09:56):
Fair.

Dylan (09:57):
And I think you're reading too far into it, I could
be.
Yeah, for usual, it could bejust a misinterpretation.
There's no, there's no analysisfor analysis.
Maybe there's, it's possible.
He doesn't have any little Sidebit about why the books titled
flame reason.

Brad (10:13):
Ignite the flame reason he doesn't nothing.
You could, you could Lean intothat a little bit.
He doesn't have anything.
Well, we think about likecaveman fire.
I thought that was like theprogression.
Hmm, that was a big step.
Okay so like the flame ofreason was like the next Big
thing.
Okay, yeah, but my take is thattoo light, that's problematic.

(10:38):
We already have reason.
It should already be lit.
So now I'm concerned that it'sgoing out what she's concerned
about to you, which is why Iwrote this book.

Martin (10:45):
Okay, so then, how do you light it first?

Brad (10:48):
Well, I bet, if you read the book, he'd probably fucking
tell you oh thanks, Did you readthe book, yeah, or did you just
skim through it?
No, I just highlighted orangeeverywhere like randomly.
So those are the shit that I'mgonna read.

Dylan (10:57):
Brad's the guy that.
Brad's the guy that takes notesand just highlights everything
You're like great.
I really allows me to distillwhat I need to know for the
episode.

Brad (11:06):
Sometimes, sometimes, I stop highlighting and I just
make that little bracket likethis when I'm like I don't want
to highlight all that, I'm justgonna bracket the whole thing,
okay, yeah, everyone needs tosee how you make your brackets
brackets.
It's a bracket.
Okay, let's move.
Let's move on, please.
What do you guys make?
Square brackets, shut up.
All right, let's keep going.

(11:28):
Yes, somebody taught me insecond grade how to make
brackets, are you sure?
Yeah, she was artistic.
Okay, okay, all right, so hestarts out.
What does it mean to berational and wise?
The wise part we'll get to atanother date.
We're gonna go through rationalright now.
By rational thinking, I meancoherent, contradiction, free
reasoning.

(11:48):
That's it, okay.
Coherent contradiction, freereasoning.
That takes out a lot of people.
Arguments.
The contradiction free part.

Dylan (12:02):
Coherent could be.
There's a lot.

Martin (12:06):
Yeah, that's you, that's a slippery slope, but I'm
Russia, I'm wrestling with thelogic there, just the
understanding of logic Also.
Well, cuz like I Mean what isrational thinking?
Like there's you.
You have to have some logicalapproach to it coherent

(12:26):
contradiction, free reasoning.

Dylan (12:29):
Coherent and contradiction free.

Brad (12:31):
Oh places.
See, you're already goingstraight to the wise part.

Martin (12:36):
Oh yeah, okay, Okay, call me the dip that okay, see
spoiler alert.

Dylan (12:40):
This is good, though, because I'm not gonna tell you
everything you need to know.
No, okay, I'm not not right outof the gate.
Do we need to jump theconclusions board?

Brad (12:48):
Oh, oh Be big made of Velcro.
So, yes, so then he's gonna gothrough a Logical step process.
So, as you're reasoning,basically, his initial thought
is Output of a logical stepProcess is always true as long

(13:11):
as the inputs are true.
Okay, but it's not the case.
Yeah, yeah.

Martin (13:18):
I'm shaking my head already.

Brad (13:19):
Yeah, so.

Martin (13:19):
I can define what is true.

Brad (13:23):
Jump, jump on the board.

Martin (13:24):
Okay, I got one already to.
Yeah, you're up to two, allright.

Brad (13:29):
So, for example, it.
So he starts off Reading theseexamples thinking that he's
gonna make a point, and then hesends this to a friend and he's
like that's, that's not true.
So as long as he's saying aslong as your inputs are correct,
your output will be correct,but If one of your inputs is
incorrect, your output will beincorrect.

(13:52):
So this is example.
All types of animals, whethernow living or extinct, were
created 6,000 years ago.
Dinosaurs are extinct animals.
Therefore, dinosaurs werecreated 6,000 years ago.
So one of the inputs isincorrect.
Therefore, you get an outputthat is also incorrect.
Mm-hmm makes sense, right,that's pretty easy part sure but

(14:12):
what people fail to see is thatyou can have false inputs with
a true output.
For example, barack Obama wasborn in Kenya, true or false?
True, fucking, no, true, false,false.
Hawaii, he was born.

(14:33):
Hawaii.
Kenyan people all have bellybuttons.
My god, true, barack Obama hasa belly button, true, yeah.
So the outcome was true, eventhough one of the premises is
false.
You want a better one?
Mm-hmm, you don't like that one?
No, I don't.

Dylan (14:48):
I mean, I was born in.

Brad (14:50):
Hawaii true.
Every Hawaiian person bornbecomes US president.
No false right conclusionBarack Obama became US president
true.

Dylan (15:03):
Mm-hmm.

Brad (15:05):
Hey, it's good Okay.

Dylan (15:07):
It's good, so we've lost every listener to this point.

Brad (15:10):
That's fine.
That was my entire purpose forthis episode.
Okay, and we're done and youwanted this, um, so Do I get
into the wisdom part?

Martin (15:22):
Huh, it all depends.
Is this where we're going?

Brad (15:27):
No, but it plays a large part.

Martin (15:28):
Okay, but I mentioned some things at the beginning.
I mean, is that gonna go overthere too?

Brad (15:34):
I don't want anything you mentioned to go into here, so
Zing, okay, so we have inputsand outputs and then, uh, he
will get into the, the wisdompart of it, and we're gonna save
that because it's a much largersection.
But essentially, rationalitydoesn't play A role, like it

(15:58):
doesn't play any role inmorality, so he brings in this
this sense of wisdom, and thewisdom is knowledge from.

Dylan (16:09):
Experience past and future events.

Martin (16:10):
Yes, Is he separating the understanding that logic and
wisdom are two different things?
Yes, okay, yeah.

Dylan (16:16):
So logic, is Calculatable , mathematical in nature.
Yes, and input, logic and thenwisdom to his definition would
be applying Context to thoseparameters and then being able
to make sound decisions based onthat correct?

Brad (16:33):
So, going back to what you would talk about as truth, so
there's a whole subset of whatcan justify what is true, what
is not true, um, and that'sanother huge discussion about
what Takes part as becoming partof wisdom and knowledge.
This is, this is this, is thatin the art of motorcycle

(16:54):
maintenance on a whole differentlevel, because it's just keep
slicing, keep slicing, keepslicing, keep slicing
essentially, but he, he doeshave like a bottom line Okay, so
um, because he talks verybriefly about, some people will
come at you philosophically,well, you can never really know
anything.
And he has like a baseline ofokay, if we, if we can just

(17:16):
agree that this World is reallyhappening to us and that we're
not in a matrix or some otherthought you know process type
thing.
Then there are things that wecan know and then you know
scientific method andreproducible results and all
that kind of stuff.
So he talks about all this.
So that's Not we're gonna talkabout right now.

Dylan (17:40):
I think, therefore, I am no, okay, no day car.
No day car.
No day car today.

Brad (17:50):
Sure, so, uh, today, what we're gonna focus on are common
logical fallacies.
So logical fallacy is anargument that can be disproven
through reasoning, so it'sdifferent than a uh, a
subjective argument, which wouldbe Um Subjective argument would

(18:10):
be like martin is six foot fivefeet tall.
That's clearly true.

Martin (18:17):
They don't know it's a podcast, I know so every time
this happens, I can't peak themic.

Dylan (18:26):
Sorry, you can't peak the mic.

Brad (18:28):
So a subjective argument being something that okay, well,
martin, can easily stand nextto a tape measure and we can
determine that that's true orfalse, right?
Uh, in terms of logicalargument, sometimes that is a
little bit or much harder todiscern because you don't always
have necessarily concrete facts.

(18:49):
So you have to go about Is theargument set up in a way that it
doesn't contradict itself?
Is it not bringing Other termsor type of arguments into it
without necessarily having thespecific data that you need?

Martin (19:07):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does, but we're hereon earth, right?
I could be six foot five and ona different planet.
I'm sorry, mm-hmm.

Brad (19:18):
You talk about, like the the sphere.

Dylan (19:23):
Multiverse multi-verse there's an infinite amount of
possibilities out there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,unlimited.

Brad (19:29):
Yeah, realities, yeah.
So in Martin's world he couldalso look like a giant penis,
could be nailing to buddy to besix foot five.

Dylan (19:36):
Still which?

Brad (19:37):
is sick, yeah, there you go, which, you know, frankly, is
not that far off from thisuniverse.

Martin (19:45):
Yeah, wow, wow, wow, oh and Wilson.

Brad (19:52):
All right, so we're gonna go through the examples of this.
Wow, oh, can I do a JordanPeterson this episode?
No, not yet.
Come on, no come on.

Dylan (20:02):
You can do with Skeletor at the end.
Come on.

Brad (20:04):
No, that's not All right.
So there, there are a a bunchof logical fallacies.
Remember, these are types ofarguments that are essentially
bad faith arguments, and Most ofthese are things that that we

(20:25):
do on a pretty regular basis.
I think we probably all haveour own favorites.
I'll try not to throw anybodyunder the bus too early.
I'm ready.

Dylan (20:36):
Okay.

Brad (20:38):
All right, so we're starting off number one.
Ad hominem is a fallacy, onethat attempts to invalidate an
opponent's position based on apersonal trait or fact about the
opponent, rather than throughlogic.
And so now we'll go throughthese, and then you guys gotta
think of a favorite example, andmy favorite example is when

(20:58):
Trump calls Ted roof's TedCruz's wife a dog.

Dylan (21:08):
His nickname committee's gotta be.
Just that's hard to be.

Brad (21:11):
It's hard to beat and that it's gonna be easy pickings for
political examples of these.
Because, but especially ifyou're looking at debates like
live debates.
So why would we use fallacieslike these?

(21:31):
Most of the times?
because we don't have actualanswers to questions or the
capacity to care yeah that too,so kind of what we talked about
in braving the wilderness wherewhy?
Why do you use this thing?
Well, it's because you you feellike you should have an opinion

(21:54):
on something, but you don'treally know anything about the
subject, and so You're kind ofgoing at the argument in a sense
to win, instead of just toUnderstand or impart knowledge.

Dylan (22:07):
Yeah, that's probably really good.
Good faith part comes in.
Is you going into something Forthe correct or the truth versus
going in with your own ulteriormotives?
Oh wow, it's like foreshadowingMmm.

Martin (22:20):
You get at this?
Where is it?
Where does the Dunning-Krugereffect plan in the role of this?
Is that a paper company?

Brad (22:27):
Could be that's a good name.
It's good name for that?

Dylan (22:30):
Just think about Dunder Mifflin.

Brad (22:32):
Um.
So this is partly why I wantedto do this part first was
because I feel like so manypeople don't recognize when this
is happening either to them orby them.
And Will this help?

(22:52):
I Don't know, maybe that'swhere Dunning-Kruger comes into
it.
I'm not sure, but if you find,if you find yourself name
calling to someone, pretty good,pretty good chance that you're
doing at hominem Mmm, okay, sothat's a very basic like yeah,

(23:13):
but your stupid face, yourwife's a dog or that, and that's
a hard comeback.
Yeah, yeah, all right.
Number two, red herring this iswhen you slap someone with a
fish Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Martin (23:27):
No.

Brad (23:27):
I'd say is it?

Dylan (23:29):
okay, it's bad.
It's bad information.
Bad, that's bad.

Brad (23:32):
It's bad information.
Red herring is an attempt toshift the focus.
So you are in a debate andSomebody says, well, martin, why
don't you want people crossingthe border?
And you say something likeCalifornia is gonna fall off
from mainland United States.
If we don't control the current, current climate crisis yeah,

(23:56):
has nothing to do with whatyou're talking about.
So all it is is step leftSomething, something different,
and if you're really good at it,it could seem like it's related
.

Martin (24:07):
But politicians, do that all the time.
Yes but not actually related.
They don't answer the question,they circle around it.

Brad (24:14):
Yes, but not necessarily with circular reasoning,
although sometimes that's also afallacy, oh you know they're
very red herring.
Yeah, because they they have.
They introduced their agendatalking points.
Yeah, they have their specifictalking points.
That's super easy.
So what?
Would I what would I interjectwith what's my specific talking

(24:37):
point you probably, I meanyou're, you're go-to right now.

Dylan (24:40):
Is that you?
I'm?

Brad (24:40):
setting you guys up right now.
You're on a T great awesomeyeah you guys, you hate
basketball.
Okay, did last week Fair, fairstatement.
He hated basketball first, notnot yesterday.
Good for you.
So yeah, number three, strawman.

(25:01):
Any guesses?
Don't read the definition.

Martin (25:06):
I have no idea.
I'm thinking about Wizard of Oz.
Okay, this is a scarecrow.

Dylan (25:11):
Well, you know straw?
True, it's a misrepresentationof the argument.

Brad (25:16):
Yes, so you hear pundits say that a lot you pick and
choose your facts.

Dylan (25:21):
I know like, oh, look at what happens when you create
this.
You know border crisis, when welet, when we don't let people
come Through.
Look at the women and childrenthat are being there.
We're separating these families.
I see what you're saying.

Martin (25:34):
So, versus the whole picture, so would you say that,
like you're entitled to youropinion but you're not entitled
to your, your own facts typesituation?
No, so.

Brad (25:46):
What it is would be All right.
Let's stick with theimmigration thing.
So Martin says I think Commonsense, immigration makes sense.
You should have to go through aprocess.
I think people should beallowed to come into this
country.
And then I say did you hear him?
He wants everybody that wants tocome in here to come in here
and take your house and rapistor take your job, and they're

(26:07):
mostly bad people, although Ihear there's some good people,
and that's a direct quote, Ithink.
So we heard you.
So they're taking either a verysmall section or more like a
skewed version of what someonehas said, and then they're just
Turning it to 11 to fit theirneeds.

Martin (26:29):
Sure, it does it all time.

Brad (26:34):
Just gonna throw them under the bus like that.
Yes, sometimes.
Yeah, sometimes it's fairstatement, sometimes it's cherry
picking when it's.

Martin (26:47):
I mean, we all know that C-span is very boring, but you
know, oh, you cut, you cut itout.

Brad (26:52):
Not necessarily, not necessarily anymore.
I Don't know if you've listenedto us in the past, but we're
introducing some new, some newthings in a C-span.

Dylan (27:04):
Yes, we are took a second .
I can't wait till those roundcards come out.
That's how you make.
That's how you make.
That's how you make criticalreasoning, um, sexy round cards.

Brad (27:20):
speaking of sexy, yeah, my next favorite fallacy, slippery
slope.

Martin (27:24):
Mmm.

Brad (27:24):
Mm-hmm, yeah, so when you just oil it up and everything
just goes downhill.
So oh, what's a Basically whatslippery slope is you're gonna
take an?

Dylan (27:38):
action.
If you let, if you let ten yearolds use phones, and then your
Argument would be well, they'regetting, they're getting phones
at ten years old.
What's next?
We're gonna let him drive atten years old.

Brad (27:48):
Oh, I was going more with, like you know, head of a cartel
type scenario Okay, oh yeah,they're gonna go home, huh.

Dylan (27:56):
Okay, let's get it.
Let's get the big one, yeah,okay.

Brad (27:58):
Yeah, oh, so your 10 year old can have social media.
What are they gonna do next?
Run a drug cartel?
Mm-hmm, yeah, I mean, maybe.
I mean, I guess it depends onwho they friend on.

Dylan (28:07):
You know my space and as long as you can watch the money,
as long as you can watch themoney appropriately and make
sure it comes back and get intoa nice dividend yielding bond
fund.

Martin (28:16):
You know we're happy, which I know you guys, I know
you honor that too.

Brad (28:19):
You guys.

Dylan (28:19):
I said watch the money as long as he knows how to wash it
appropriately.

Brad (28:22):
You guys like to think ten year olds are dumb, but they're
not.
I saw that that show inMissouri With Jason Bateman.
Mmm, yeah, yeah, his son wasnot that old.
It's really smart.
Can happen.
We're watching on social media,we see it in.
I see it in my industry, thoughyou want to see.

Dylan (28:39):
You want to see a kid that you want it.
You want to have your networkCompromise.
Just put a ten year old onthere and tell him that he can't
play the game and he can figureout how to get past firewall
rules and everything really fast.

Brad (28:52):
Yeah, I might have done some of those things on accident
growing up.
Okay you're just in Dawson,you're like delete, delete,
delete, delete, delete.

Dylan (29:05):
Yeah, that's that.
That seemed like an underlyingOS opera.

Brad (29:10):
Defect.
Yeah, I didn't know that youcould actually delete physical
properties of your computer bydeleting code.

Dylan (29:17):
Yeah, but yeah, it's the program, brad, just freaking out
.

Brad (29:27):
Why would, why wouldn't it happen?
Oh my friend loves the storybecause he has the same opinion
of me as you guys do, so low,I'm sorry, I was like I was just
, I was just trying to make morememories so I could play a game
.
And then I was like the CD-ROMwon't open, like I remember

(29:48):
calling the help desk and I'mlike I deleted my CD-ROM and
they're like.
They're like do you have aCD-ROM?

Dylan (29:55):
I was like no, it's physically here, yeah it's not
doing anything and all in allfairness that the operating
system should have permissionson there that never allowed that
.
Yeah, they should be locked forsure.

Martin (30:06):
Yeah, oh yeah, in 96, where they locked no, okay, so
there's that they let it go, andthe old saying shouldn't even
be able to pseudo, that.

Dylan (30:19):
It's just like something you shouldn't be able to do
unless you're in the kernel.

Brad (30:22):
Yeah, I really felt like I was on the dark web, though
it's just like.

Dylan (30:28):
What's the angel in a jelly hacker movie.
Hackers, hackers, brads overthere just mean mean Angie
hanging out.

Brad (30:39):
Yeah, no, I was not anywhere near that.

Martin (30:42):
All right, what's the next one?

Brad (30:43):
false dichotomy.
Hmm, my personal word, or thenext definition either yeah,
false dilemma or false dichotomy.
So Either you're with us oragainst this.
Yeah, we've talked at no, I'lltell you about this, mm-hmm.
But this is also you.
That's super common one.
Just, I don't like, can youguys give some examples?

(31:06):
I mean, I'm like giving all theexamples give us, give your
example.
I don't have any examples ofthis.
I don't think I ever do it.
You're an idiot.

Martin (31:23):
I don't believe you.

Brad (31:24):
I've never done this, my wife does this to me a lot.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's.
I think it's more common whenyou are critical of someone.

Dylan (31:39):
You know this is.
And then the responses this is,I'll never do that.
Yeah, this is the.
The other person or the emotioncan't be taken out of the
argument.
This is what happens whenpeople confuse Personal attacks
with having an honest debate.

Brad (31:54):
It's true so I I would say like I Don't, I don't really
like it when you say thatparticular thing.
It makes me feel such in such away, and then they say I'll
never talk to you again, fine,okay.
Well, that's not.
That's not what the argumentwas about Mm-hmm.
It was one thing, everythingyeah, that's all.

Martin (32:17):
well, parents do that too.
I mean, I could be going off onthe deep end here, but you know
, empty threats, oh, oh, can't,can't, empty threat kids.

Dylan (32:25):
They figure that shit out fast.

Martin (32:27):
Hey, we're not gonna go to Disneyland because you know
you can't pick up your shitright now.

Brad (32:35):
Is that the same thing?

Dylan (32:37):
one could argue it could be Seems slippery slopey to me,
mm-hmm either you pick up yourstuff or we don't go to
Disneyland.

Martin (32:44):
Yeah, but you already bought the freaking tickets.

Brad (32:47):
Well, you got to have some backbone, you know.

Dylan (32:50):
Mm-hmm Plus.
It's not that good.
I've never been.

Brad (32:57):
Oh, I highly recommend.
Yeah, you should go, okay, yeah.
I mean, yeah, they got like $10pretzels Maybe if they've got a
straight, they got like badnachos bad nachos.
Yeah, nope, no place to sitdown.
Mm-hmm, I long lines.
If you're gonna go, I woulddefinitely go like late July,
early August got it yeah, ratherthan eight, mm-hmm.

(33:18):
Lot of like green spaces.
Hmm, yeah, it's kind of likebandwagon fallacy.

Dylan (33:23):
We're just it, everyone doing it, so it must be so good.

Martin (33:27):
Yeah, it is it could be borderline.

Brad (33:30):
Yeah, the Disney is.
Yeah, it's definitely bandwagon.

Martin (33:36):
Mm-hmm yeah.

Brad (33:38):
That's a certain action is right because it's popular.
What else is bandwagon fallacy?
Right now, travel sports.

Martin (33:48):
Mmm.
In what regard in?

Brad (33:50):
the regard that, like it's , it's like everybody else is
doing it, so, like my kid needsto do it.

Martin (33:57):
No.

Brad (33:59):
That's why it's a fallacy, martin.
It's not truth, it's not reason.

Martin (34:08):
I don't know, you're the one that invited.
Yeah, you didn't buy me, Idon't know why.
Because you are happy thatarsenal one today, like, hey,
let's, let's do this today.
And I showed up and Dylan'slike oh, that's here hey.

Brad (34:21):
I got a text message.
No, you go back through thelist, okay.
Yeah, you go back through thelist, because that was a bunch
of them right there in thatstatement.
That's what happens.

Dylan (34:31):
Yeah, how many that was ready?
How many did?
I was ready for sure.

Brad (34:35):
I believe you maybe attacked me personally At
hominem.
Yeah, I had hominem ad nauseam,I think it's time for you to
have a beer.
No, I don't like it, I Don'twant to do it.
Oh, this is, oh, appeal toignorance.
This might be what you weretalking about.
Well, if we don't do any Kruger, yeah, a little bit.

(34:55):
Yeah, claim that something mustbe true because it hasn't been
proven false.
So Aliens exist because, oh,here's no one's what.

Dylan (35:08):
I, he's right, we can't I .

Brad (35:14):
Can't talk about aliens anymore.
No, that's fine.
Because it because it hasn'tbeen proven false.

Martin (35:21):
For one area, the opposite there.

Brad (35:23):
So there's an opposite effect to.
So opposite is the burden ofproof fallacy.
So it must be false because ithasn't been proven true.
So the Religion is a super easyone to do this with, and I saw
can't prove God doesn't exist.
I saw a.
What do we call them now?

(35:43):
Online pastors?
We call them crypto.

Martin (35:47):
It wasn't crypto.

Brad (35:49):
Oh, oh no, it was a lot more cringy than Joel Mm-hmm
Just saying something.
I think it's internet.
Let's go with internet pastors,internet pastors.
Okay big screens bands likeshows.
We go with that.
The whole works, yeah, thewhole works Okay.
And so he's talking to hiscongregation both in person and

(36:11):
online, and he was talking poppastors with pop pastors, pop
pastors, pop, pop, pop, likethey're like popular.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeahokay.
Swiftie passwords, kind of hiphop adepasters, hip hop,
anonymous Hope.

(36:31):
So, he's given a story about howhe was arguing with Either an
atheist or an agnostic orsomething, and I'm pretty sure
he made this entire thing upbecause he didn't have that
conversation.
And so he goes.
I, I proved him wrong in twoeasy steps.
And so he draws a big circleand he goes this is everything

(36:53):
that is knowable.
And the guy goes okay, he goes.
How much of this circle Do youthink?
You know Atheist or agnosticguy was like this tiny little
sliver.
I Mean there's a lot to beknown and there's a lot left
unknown.
So I'm gonna go with a tinysliver.
And so then he goes so Godexists.

(37:15):
And you're like wait, that'snot, that's not how that works.
It's you, you jumped a gun onthat, mm-hmm.
So it's Because it hasn't.
He's like because you can'tprove that it's false, it's true
.
It's like no, no, no, no,that's not how that works.
So are you sure?

Dylan (37:36):
How do you know?
I didn't get you can't prove it, so maybe it is.
We didn't get to that.

Martin (37:43):
Okay, okay.

Dylan (37:44):
Oh.

Brad (37:46):
You want to get to that part?

Martin (37:51):
We're getting points on the board today.

Dylan (37:54):
This is why you're here, not just a passive bystander.

Brad (37:58):
No, and the opposite.
So, oh well, god Can't existbecause it's not been proven
true, so it has to be false.
Hmm, and I think like what?
In that sense, what a trueatheist would say is like no,
there's no reason to believe init.

(38:19):
There's, there's no good dataexamples, correct?

Martin (38:25):
reasoning correct.
But the opposite say like whynot believe?

Brad (38:30):
Well, that's in.

Dylan (38:33):
What is that?
What is that?
Back to this.
What is that?

Brad (38:36):
I want to go try and not to go here.

Dylan (38:38):
What is the argument?
It's better to believe, just incase he does exist, so you
don't go to hell, is that it?
There's an argument like that?
No, that sounds great cards.
Even if you don't believe, it'sbetter to believe.

Brad (38:50):
The the sense that when he talks about knowledge, that
there's a belief structure tothat, but the belief comes on
actual reasoning To suggest thatyou should believe it.

Martin (39:05):
That's it.
That's it, yeah, no arguments.
What do you mean arguments?
Well, like this is it periodthere's, there's no like, yeah.

Dylan (39:13):
Pascal's wager.

Brad (39:17):
Say it, say it.
Why do you can't just sayrandom words and then not
explain it?
This isn't our text thread.
Oh, what's Pascal's wager?

Dylan (39:30):
Okay, is a philosophical argument advanced by blase
Pascal, 17th century Frenchmathematician, philosopher,
physicist and theologian.
This argument, uh posits thatthe individuals essentially
engage in a life defining gambleregarding the belief in the
existence of God.
Oh, gamble.

(39:50):
Mm-hmm because what is thepayoff?
If he does exist?
You didn't, it's prettydetrimental, yeah.
But if, if you live your lifelike God exists and you die, it
doesn't, then it doesn't reallymatter, so it's better, you have
more positive outcomes goingwith.
Believing in God is his wager,yeah.

Brad (40:09):
I'm not saying it's correct, it's cool.
I bet he couldn't use a cellphone.
So it's probably not show howsmart he is.

Dylan (40:18):
Pascal's a pretty smart dude.

Brad (40:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know what kind of argument that
would be.

Martin (40:27):
That's interesting argument because it's also the
understanding of like you knowhow the church was set up, right
where you would pay for yoursins.
You know there's, there's thatlike deep down nuance around,
that's like hmm, just in case,don't forget to pay your $20
every someday.

Brad (40:45):
Yeah, but that's.
I feel like there's a bigasterisk by that, in the sense
that what if you're?
What if you're not believing inthe correct way?
And we're talking about journeywhat if don't stop believing?
What if you die and then you goto hell and you're like no way,
hey, I paid, I was believing,and they're like not in the

(41:09):
right way.

Dylan (41:13):
Plot twist, but I paid to be disappointing that would be.

Brad (41:17):
Yeah, I would be so yeah, so in terms of that there's a
Truth and knowledge andepistemology, and how do we know
what we know and all of thosekind of things.
That's a well another, that'smost likely round two, because

(41:39):
then you have to start takingthose things into account when
you get into actual recentarguments.
Inception, yeah, in case youwant to plant an idea in some
side somebody's mind.
The best debaters I don't likethat term.

Dylan (41:58):
I just did it to you.
You don't even know.

Brad (42:04):
I don't like it.
Oh, and the last one, and thisis again one of one of many, but
these are the most common onesthe sunk cost.
Sunk cost fallacy.
So this is just as big ineconomics as it is it's yeah,
it's big and all it's big in theway people live their lives a
lot of times.

Martin (42:23):
Oh my god.

Brad (42:25):
So continuing on a specific course, because of the
amount of time and moneyinvested in whatever you're
doing already right, and so,like I've come this far, or like
I've invested so much in thestock, like it's got to pay me
back, it's like great losses?
No, it doesn't.
Yeah, like there's no rule thatsays that, or you could say it

(42:47):
about a bad relationships wouldbe another, probably a huge one
all the time when you'veinvested time, sometimes money
it's not that easy, karen.

Dylan (42:57):
It's got like five of my CDs.
That was one of my favoritesketch skits, so the easiest way
to think about that one andthis is how my intro Economics
professor taught me was you goto the movie theater, you buy a

(43:17):
movie ticket, you get fiveminutes into the movie and you
realize it sucks.
Now do you want to spend theremaining 90 minutes there and
watch a really terrible moviewith your time Mm-hmm?
Or do you want to just leaveknowing that you already spent
the money and then go to the barnext door Maybe have a little
bit of a better time, right,okay, but what if the movie is
the room and Ends up being theworst movie that you've ever

(43:41):
seen period and Gives you justyears of stories.

Martin (43:46):
So talk about yeah, there's a day kind of you around
that, though, but it's that'syour choice to make, though so
did you.

Dylan (43:53):
That's, that's, that's not.
You're sitting there sayingyou're you're not having a cost
at that point, because you'resaying this is Going to benefit
me from the stories I'm going tobe able to tell yeah, you have
a benefit there, yeah whereas ifyou don't care, that benefit
doesn't.
You don't care about tellingstories about the worst movie
you've ever seen.

Brad (44:09):
You're gonna leave then because it's not providing any
more.
But also I feel like thisfallacy is when you've invested
A lot of time or a significantchunk of your money.

Dylan (44:18):
That's just, that's just an easy.

Brad (44:20):
I mean so like if you only had five dollars period and you
spent it on a movie, then Iguess maybe you could make that.

Martin (44:26):
Okay, so then talk about something that you're going big
on you.
You sunk in a ton of cash intoand then you have to figure out
like his van.

Brad (44:36):
That's not true.

Dylan (44:37):
So car restorations are a good one though.
Okay, yeah, yeah, you see anyin your dad restoration.

Brad (44:42):
I mean, you've seen your dad do it and that's yeah,
that's not even a bad one, Imean it's.
You get to the point where it'slike, yeah, there's a little
rest right here, and you're like, huh, there's, my frame's gone.
No, and all of a sudden you gota rotisserie sitting in your
kitchen somewhere and you'relike spinning a 69 GTO around
trying to it's big kitchen.
You know You're gonna put aplus.

(45:02):
That's where rotisserie gonnaput a body.

Dylan (45:04):
You're gonna put a body.

Brad (45:06):
Okay, you know it's okay to quit.
No, most people have a exhaustfans in the kitchen, so it's all
point, yeah.

Dylan (45:14):
It, it's a company cubic feet per minute is gonna push it
is okay.

Brad (45:18):
People also attach Maybe too much meaning to oh, 100%
certain things because they'relogical.

Martin (45:25):
Re going back to this, their logical reason is like oh,
I put all this cash in.

Brad (45:30):
Yeah, like all this time you know my wife.
So he's like you can't just getrid of the dog and I'm like I
don't really care.
She's like, yeah, but we mustbeen with us for so long and I'm
just like it's not logical tokeep him.
Get rid of the kids, keep thedog.
Kids might be the ultimate sunkcost fallacy.
Hundred percent.

Martin (45:49):
What's the average now?
I want to say 250 K, is it yeah?

Brad (45:54):
just to have one.
Diamonds are forever one, justone one.
That can't be right.

Dylan (46:02):
Yeah, average middle-income family, two
children, will spend threehundred and ten thousand dollars
to raise a child born in 2015and up to age 17.

Martin (46:13):
They just yeah, we both win because both of our kids are
before 2017.

Brad (46:24):
No 15.
15 say 2015 2015 and after nomine.
Oh well, it's just money.
That's crazy.
We're already this far down therabbit.
That's why I'm a dink and it'sawesome.

Dylan (46:41):
Great good for you.
Double income, no kids.

Brad (46:43):
Yeah, we talked about what 40 year olds do with no kids
last time.

Dylan (46:47):
That's great.
Mm-hmm business class flightsEurope, africa, south Africa you
want me to jump off the roof?

Brad (46:54):
please I'm gonna be pure now.
Okay, all right.
So to your foreshadowing and alittle bit back to braving the
wilderness.
How do we nurture this processof critical reasoning and how do

(47:15):
we light the flame?
How do you light the flame?
How do you keep it going?

Dylan (47:20):
Easiest way is to.
That sounded so good I.

Brad (47:28):
Listening to other people's arguments.
So we've talked before aboutbeing open-minded.

Martin (47:32):
Mm-hmm.

Brad (47:33):
So you have to have this sense that Just because
somebody's Take on somethingthat's different than yours
Doesn't make it invalid, and ifanything you want to hear,
that's your opinion.
It's fucking stupid.

Dylan (47:48):
Yeah okay, yeah, I know, I was.
I, that was an example, thatwas me telling you right now.
Okay, I Keep going yeah, okay,cuz I want to see how dumb you
are.
All right, I Don't.

Brad (48:01):
I don't think this is nurturing.
Oh, we're supposed to nurture.

Dylan (48:03):
Yeah, I'm sorry.
You're my best friend, brad.
Thank you so much for beinghere, thank you.

Brad (48:08):
Thank you.
It's always a joy to be hereLearning and listening to other
people, so being able to getoutside of your Confirmation
biases and your echo chambersand listen to other arguments
Specifically to try tounderstand those arguments and

(48:29):
then Refute them, if you feelthey need to, in a reasonable
manner.

Martin (48:36):
So there's something that I do want to mention about
it.
So there's a difference betweenHaving an understanding with
that person and boiling it downto is this a learning moment or
is this an educating moment?

Brad (48:49):
I'm sorry, did you just make learning and educating two
different things?

Martin (48:52):
Yeah, there's, there's separate understanding around
that, because it's like, whenyou Want to have a conversation
with that person, are yousetting yourself up so that
you're like, hmm, my logicalthought is like, how do I
Position myself so that I'mhaving a conversation where I
can share my opinion and Backedup facts, where it's, it's an

(49:13):
educating part, versus do I justsit back and just take it and
listen and listen?

Brad (49:21):
Roll it out, right.
Well, that's.
That's not always gonna go thatway, is it?

Martin (49:26):
Mm-hmm.

Brad (49:27):
So the first part is the listening part, because that's
something that you're in controlof.
So somebody brings up a, atopic that is there, a point of
view that is much different thanyours.
It's like great, can you tellme more about that?
You know, can you explain, like, what your reasoning is or why
you think this way or what ledyou to?
You know, want to believe this,and Sometimes they'll have an

(49:55):
answer.
Sometimes they're just recitingtalking points, and so you'll
find that out pretty quick too.
If they're just recitingtalking points, then it's, it's
not gonna be a real learningprocess for probably either one
of you, because you understandthat stick to the cue cards.
Stick to the cue cards, they'rejust verbatim saying something

(50:15):
that they heard somewhere else,which is not their true argument
and also makes it Prettyunlikely that they're gonna be
willing to hear anything thatyou have to say.
That's opposite of that.

Martin (50:30):
Or at the shot, I guess.
So then, when it comes to howdo we, how do we nurture reason,
how do we get to that as aconversation between two people
when there's two different sidesto their understanding?

Brad (50:43):
I think I think asking first what, being interested in
what they have to say.
I Think it's maybe the best wayto start those conversations,
because if they think it's aconversation and not a debate,
that's that's like step one.
So if you come at it from anattacking like, what do you

(51:06):
think about this?
Because I think this way itcomes off a certain way sure
like are they gonna see youfucking?

Dylan (51:14):
Maybe like under your breath.
Where does eugenics come intoall this Hot take?

Brad (51:23):
I what I'm just yeah, where did that come from?
How do we?

Dylan (51:27):
bring it.
Get rid of those people thatcan't read cue that read cue you
can't.
I know, I know, I know.

Brad (51:37):
I thought I thought we established this a long time ago
.

Dylan (51:41):
What did we?

Brad (51:41):
establish.
I don't think we could do that.
No, it's, it's not good.
It's not now, martin, why youare here in the first place.
Yeah, please tell me that whenwe talk about her reasoning From
a, from a youth standpoint,obviously school is one way to

(52:02):
do it.
It doesn't school always do itin a good way, maybe sometimes
yes, maybe sometimes no, maybeit depends on the teacher.
Curriculums are, you know,problematic in that sense,
depending on the school and andhow that's all set up.
From the sports standpoint, I'mMartin is very much about the

(52:24):
asking questions and the notgiving answers, part of it which
I enjoy Mostly so.

Dylan (52:34):
There's a hesitant as it's no, I doesn't like when you
do it to him, it's only cool.
So Brad likes his shit spelledout.

Brad (52:43):
I a little bit of tight button.
So Before meeting Martin, whenI coached, I would ask the
questions why should we do this?
And then they would kind ofthink on it a little bit and
then no one would give theanswer.
And then I'd be like To do thisidiots, come on, figure it out.
You give me the answer and thenMartin's like no, no answer.

(53:04):
Okay, here we go, keep playing.
And all the kids are like no,hey, what?
yeah so Asking kids to thinkabout Like actions and what
those consequences are like,both in a good sense and a bad
sense, and Trying to let themfigure that out.

(53:24):
And it's the self-reflection onsure on that part.
So I Think it from a youngstandpoint just it starts
getting that those neuralpathways kind of go in a little
bit Like what happens if I dothis, what happens if I do this?
Is it the exact same thing?
No, but I think you're.
You're starting to strengthen amuscle that can Turn into doing

(53:48):
those kind of things.

Martin (53:49):
I think you hit the nail on the head on that, because
there's also another thing thatwe haven't, I'm necessarily
talked about on that it's.
That's this self-reflection.
I don't think we do that enough.

Dylan (53:59):
What is that awareness?
Yeah, what?
Understanding your own, yourown cognitive fallacies,
understanding your own biases.

Brad (54:07):
Yeah, yeah.
So when, when we talk aboutthese fallacies, it's not just
Can you pick them out whensomeone is giving it to you, can
you pick it out when you'redoing it to somebody else also,
because if you're doing that,then that probably says
something about the situationthat you're in sure that you
need to.
Regeneration argument yeah, justin your argument or the fact

(54:27):
that you could be wrong or youneed to take a new look at
something.
So, yeah, the critical thinkingpart is not critical thinking
in terms of Proving that otherpeople are always wrong.
It goes very much inward aswell.
So, but how do we do?

Martin (54:46):
that.
How do we do?
What?
How do?
How do we understand that weneed to do that?

Brad (54:52):
Oh, cuz I'm telling you, I'm telling you you need to do
that.
What are the steps?
Oh, just do it.

Dylan (55:01):
King cheese dick over here.

Brad (55:08):
How.

Martin (55:09):
I don't understand.
You're in the midst of aconversation and you're trying
to register through the rule ofdex that these situations are
happening due to theconversation and you have to go
through the understanding of,like, oh, I'm not being a very
good person right now because myreasoning is not Not great at
the moment.
Okay, what are the mental stepsthat I need to go through?

(55:33):
Well, I like pulled back to, Ineeded need to go to that.
You know, kind of what Imentioned in the beginning is
like Do I just, you know, goback to just listening and just
shut up, or do I then start?
Do I need to shift my mindsetand like oh, instead of just
telling and educating, I need totake that, that understanding,
and start Asking more questions.

(55:55):
Yeah, okay, fair.

Brad (55:56):
You could do that if it's something that you feel like you
want to argue about, but thenyou you keep falling into some
of these fallacies where youdon't actually have Any
knowledge.
Data, experience around thething might be a good reason to
step back and be like you knowwhat?
I don't.
I Don't have a good base ofknowledge for this.
Okay, I'm willing to hear yourside and in turn, if it's

(56:19):
important to me, go do some moreresearch.
Okay, to see if your side iscorrect.

Dylan (56:24):
I think when you, when you're talking with someone, I
think that it's If you start tofeel a an emotion in a negative
way, or it just riles you up,whether it's sad, angry,
whatever, like that's.
A good little little tellingmoment of this is really
affecting me right now andAsking yourself why and not just

(56:48):
it's because they'redisagreeing with me, it's why am
I feeling the way I am whenthey tell that to me?
And then being able to dissectthat a little bit further Helps
tremendously, because when youstart that, that's we putting
your ego into it.
And it's you've got to removeyourself from it to really
understand all of it becauseotherwise you're gonna, you're

(57:09):
gonna respond emotionally.

Brad (57:11):
Which is probably gonna end up to be one of those
fallacies, because that's it'san easy trigger just to go off
of either that, or if it's, ifit's something that's like
really obscene, like obviouslywrong.

Martin (57:25):
Oh yeah, but do you want to put yourself?
You know, leading to your point, dylan, do you want to put
yourself in a Eli 5 situation?
Or explain, explain to me likeI'm 5 Kind of play, like the
dumb card, a little bit, like Idon't really understand this.

Brad (57:41):
I mean in terms of if somebody is Not Playing on the
same field as you, you're justgonna be like that's.
You know, I'm gonna step awayfrom this.

Dylan (57:52):
Yeah, that's.
I think you get one of twothings out of this.
If you're thinking about theemotion side of it is one the
person across from me justdoesn't have, the Doesn't have
the, the argument they thinkthey do, or the reasoning or the
facts.
Or the other one is I don'thave the argument, the reasoning
or facts, so either way we needto step away.

Brad (58:12):
It could be something else , though, where it maybe it's
something that you're just verypassionate about, and that
person says something that, uh,they're not thinking about it in
the same way, or maybe theyhaven't been thinking about it
in the same depth that you have.
And so you, if you findyourself in these situations
where you, oh, this has been onmy mind, and then you say one
little sentence, and all of asudden I go To the bottom of the
well that I've been digging forthe last, you know, three weeks

(58:34):
, which is like every week maybe, and all of a sudden this
happens and being able to removeyourself from that emotional
state to Try to explain, like,why you don't agree right, as
opposed to being emotional aboutit and Maybe more

(58:55):
confrontational yeah, it's.
It's not a great way to.

Dylan (59:01):
That's a that's a good point to get listened to
something that I was thinkingabout a couple minutes ago and
this is something that I see inthe workplace, which is a client
asks a question.
I was gonna say people, peoplein the workplace and one of the
engineers or whomever I'mworking with feels the need to
respond immediately versustaking the time to dissect what

(59:22):
is actually being asked.
What is what is expected in aresponse?
And it's just, and I think thathappens in what we're talking
about.
Debates are just Working withpeople in general or talking
with people in general.
It's you, don't.
Speed has nothing to do withyour ability to you know, have a
valid argument, so you can justsit there in silence and take

(59:43):
some time to register it.
Or you can just say you knowwhat.
I Need to take some time toprocess what you've said so that
I can articulate a betteranswer or a response for you
that deserves what you'vearticulated to me and just being
able to give yourself some time, which, again, can help a lot
of the time.
I think some of these negativeemotions is probably because we
feel the anxiety and pressure ofa crunch time decision.

(01:00:04):
It's like we're not solvinganything in real time.

Martin (01:00:06):
So why do we need us?
Why does it need to happen now?

Dylan (01:00:09):
Let's just take some time and then hopefully remove some
of the emotion out of it.

Brad (01:00:13):
Also a little representative of youth sports.
When you're yeah, when you'redirecting and coaching, you're
like, okay, so what we're gonnado is we're gonna get a ball,
and then everybody sprints andgoes and gets a ball.

Dylan (01:00:22):
You're like whoa, we haven't even got, we haven't
gotten to the punch line.

Brad (01:00:26):
There's like three more minutes of instruction you need
to need to slow down and justwhat's not.

Martin (01:00:30):
Even that, though it's like okay.
So let's say the team plays andthere's a couple kids that
Maybe one or two that don't evenplay a game.
Parents are hot on the sidelinethat their kid didn't play
24-hour period.
Some people can't, oh, can'tregister that, yeah, right, yeah
.
Or they played for, let's say,a minute 30 seconds.

(01:00:52):
They still can't register thatthere's 24-hour period.
Some people can't register that.
How do we get them to registerthat?
They can't read?
What do you mean?
Can't write it?
Well, it's like their, theirchild didn't play For whatever
situation, and they, like,they're still hot after 24 hours
.
No, they're hot right there andthey have to like immediately Be

(01:01:14):
line into the coach, like mykid didn't play.

Brad (01:01:16):
Oh yeah, I thought you're mean and like, because there's a
lot of teams that implementthat Works like, yeah, you can't
.
You can't talk to the coachafter you want to talk to me.
It's 24 hours.

Dylan (01:01:25):
Positive or negative?
Yeah, that's solid.

Brad (01:01:26):
That's totally fair.

Dylan (01:01:27):
I mean, in the workplace is that.

Martin (01:01:33):
Is that?
Do you see that a lot?
My I With it within a group it.

Dylan (01:01:39):
Sometimes I have to play Like, if it's internal, it's
like, alright, guys, we're justgonna drop this for right now
and let's go back and have some,because there is, as engineers,
there's a desire to be right inthe fix, it all in the moment
Right, and it's like, alright,we got to take a hot second, go
back, take some thoughts, thinkabout this, different scenarios.
Then let's get some thoughts onpaper and then we can kind of

(01:02:02):
regroup 100% and then.

Martin (01:02:05):
But if you're working with a client, my biggest thing
is always.

Dylan (01:02:07):
If you don't know the answers, it's okay to tell the
client you don't know theanswers and that I'm gonna go
back and get educated with theteam that does have answers, or
I'm gonna go research and thenI'm gonna facilitate those to
you.
I'm your personal little answerpoint.
I'm gonna take your questions.
There's nothing worse than lyingto a customer, or giving them
bad information Because you justhave a need to feel like you

(01:02:27):
know everything in the moment.
It's just, it's okay not toknow and I think that's where
people get tripped up just 100%,I need to know everything.
It's like no, you don't, you'renot expected to.

Martin (01:02:36):
There's so many different.

Dylan (01:02:37):
There's so many, so much information, so many different
places.
You just like I'm gonna takesome time to collect my thoughts
and then I'm gonna get you whatyou need to know because it's
important for you to know, andthen I'm gonna get you what you
need to know because it'simportant for you to have
correct and accurate information.

Brad (01:02:52):
Well, that is pretty much the literal definition of a
professional.
So when people say, oh well,you're a professional, I'll ask
you, and people will be like Idon't, I don't feel like a
professional and some people's,I guess definition of that is if

(01:03:13):
you are someone that peoplecome to for answers and either
know it or know how to find it,you're the professional.
So I have a question.
Okay, yeah, I know the answerthat that's scary.
Not if you take it in a prettyliteral sense, sure, also in the

(01:03:35):
sense that the answers aremostly correct.

Dylan (01:03:38):
But no, I think, yeah, you're, you go to a.
We have not saying, we werejust.

Brad (01:03:44):
Just an answer.
We're like, hey, what kind ofpaint should I put on my walls?
Chocolate syrup.

Dylan (01:03:51):
I mean Brit.
Brit works in surgery, yeah,and they don't.
They don't do all the surgeries.
Not every surgery they do iscommon, like where they do a lot
, yeah, and so there will betimes where they're going to go
do an operation or procedure andthey pull the old surgeon's
handbook out and they runthemselves through the steps
again and at the end of the day,you hope that your surgeon is a

(01:04:14):
professional.
And it's like you said it, wedon't.
We don't do this enough to justblindly assume that we know how
to do it properly.
We're gonna go recalibrate it.

Brad (01:04:22):
Do you want to go this just like I figure this out?

Dylan (01:04:25):
Yeah, exactly, and so it's not uncommon just to go
through the steps again, just asa little refresher.
I mean pilots, there is not.
Pilots have probably the mostrepeatable job out of anyone
besides a factory worker.

Martin (01:04:37):
You know that just hits a button over a minute, stupid
pilots.

Dylan (01:04:40):
But they pull the checklist every for every
instance.
Yeah, I mean it is landing,there's a checklist.
Yeah, taking off, there's achecklist.
Post takeoff checklist,pre-landing checklist, in-flight
checklist.
They pull a checklist and theygo through it every time because
one of the things doesn't work.

Brad (01:04:57):
One of the things doesn't work.

Dylan (01:04:58):
It's, there's disastrous consequences and so it's.
It's To your point.
Professionalism is getting thecorrect answers out there, not
just filling devoid withsomething because you need to
feel like you.
You are correct.

Brad (01:05:11):
Yeah in the moment, and I would say especially with range.
So like if you are someone thatonly does you know a very
specific thing, are you gonnahave to go back and check on
something?
No, probably not, becauseyou're always doing it.
Maybe you're looking for newer,better ways to do it.
But so someone like you, whereyou're in a bigger variety of

(01:05:34):
computer workings Okay, well,it's not just one specific thing
, we cover a range of things.
Or like me with woodworking,it's like I don't do just one
specific thing, so I'm gonna goback and be like okay, well,
what's another technique I coulduse?

Dylan (01:05:48):
or how can I do better at this.
And then Martin withprogramming.
There's hundreds of librariesout there.
He under he understands thebasics, but there times he gets
into something else.
He's like I got to go read thedocumentation because this has
some nuance to it.

Brad (01:06:01):
It's not just sitting there ripping through it on your
own so that's a long, that's along form way of saying that If
you don't understand somethingor you don't know the answer,
it's okay and you don't have tohave an argument about it and
you're gonna be better off, youknow, telling someone that you

(01:06:22):
are in an argument or a debateor a discussion with that.
I don't.
I don't know anything aboutthis.
You clearly have heard or reada lot about this.

Martin (01:06:32):
I think what's interesting, though, is like is
that what happens is like peopleneed time to process, and so
they want to spit out whateverthey want at that time of moment
, and in that moment, they feelthat the ego gets pumped up and
they have to be able to spit outsomething where it's like where

(01:06:56):
they really should have said Idon't have the tools at the
moment, and so that's how theyshould move forward in that
process.
Is that what you're saying?

Dylan (01:07:05):
Because the more times you react emotionally and you
create a fallacy, the otherperson's going to understand it,
which is going to reduce theirstock and the validity of your
arguments going forward.
So you're just really reducingyour capital.
You know your personal capitalat that point versus you're the
person that takes the time to belike you know what?

(01:07:26):
I'm going to go research this,come back.
Those people start to take youa little bit more seriously.
You're building up a little bitmore capital because you don't
just fill the air.

Brad (01:07:34):
Not only that, but if you start doing that, it's going to
be easier to do it Sure, and itshows a sign of respect to the
person you're with.

Dylan (01:07:41):
It's not just a me versus you thing, it's hey, I'm taking
the time for both of us and soyou can start to create maybe
some connections there.
We're going to get a whole hostof other things.

Brad (01:07:51):
Or you could take the Thomson-Gurot approach where he
goes.
You know, I don't want to arguewith people anymore, so anytime
I find myself getting into anargument with something.
So I'm like you know, I don'tbelieve in abortion.
And then I'm in a familygathering and my cousin's like I
do believe in abortion.

(01:08:11):
And he's like, oh yeah, Ibelieve in abortion too.
And he's like what?
He's like, yeah, I didn't.
And then you said you did, andnow I changed my mind.
So now I believe.
So, thank you, yeah, thanks.

Dylan (01:08:21):
So you just there you go, seems easier.

Brad (01:08:24):
It's a funny way to make people mad.
Mm-hmm, it's like no, I totallyagree with you.
And they're like, no, you don't.
Yeah, you don't agree with me.
It's like, yeah, you just thatbrother's on the where in the
tuxes you know what actually now, this isn't funny, you know
what.

Dylan (01:08:40):
Fuck you for doing it Now .
I'm actually insulted.

Brad (01:08:43):
But that's yeah.
Don't try that unless you wantto See what happens.
Yeah, put it in your body, seewhat happens.
Mountain Dew that's a Martinthing, I don't know.
No, that's not, I just quotenot for me.

Martin (01:08:57):
I didn't make it up.
That's from Nathan Lill.

Brad (01:09:01):
No one knows who that is.

Martin (01:09:04):
It's my days in China.
It's Chinese saying no, it'smore of like it's like nine
hundred years and getting hungryand like okay, street food.
See what happens.

Dylan (01:09:16):
Ew yeah.

Martin (01:09:18):
You don't know, and it probably pulled out until at two
in the morning.
It's like, yeah, put it in yourbody.

Dylan (01:09:24):
See what happens.
Had some scary moments likethat in Vietnam.
No, Vietnam, I heard that story.
It's fine, Just in the middleof nowhere.
Like we'll eat this sketchylooking chicken kebab.
We'll make it.

Martin (01:09:37):
Or you won't, and it was good.
It was good, we were good, wewere fine.
Didn't have the runs You'regreat, it's always fine.

Dylan (01:09:44):
Yeah, except for those people that die.
It was fresh, I guarantee it.
Yeah, it was.

Martin (01:09:47):
And by fresh meaning.

Dylan (01:09:49):
They went like oh you want some chicken yeah.

Martin (01:09:51):
Yeah, it wasn't just sitting on the street for 48
hours.

Brad (01:09:54):
My wife just threw away a container or something in the
baking cabinet today that wasfrom 2017.
That's awesome.
What?

Dylan (01:10:01):
was it?
I don't know?
Was it muffin mix?
No, okay, no, I'm gonna bakesomething tonight.
I don't know what I'm gonnabake something.
Is it a gummy?

Brad (01:10:10):
What you don't bake gummies, mold them, I believe.
All right, so that's part one.
That's that's the question toend it.
That was part one.

Dylan (01:10:21):
That was part one.
Okay, what's next?
Wisdom Don't know.
We don't talk about what's next, and just for the readers or
the listeners, they're listeners.

Martin (01:10:31):
Listeners.

Dylan (01:10:31):
But we do have transcripts, by the way, we do
have transcripts.

Martin (01:10:34):
Thank you AI.

Dylan (01:10:35):
Thank you, ai.
Wow, wow.
This isn't gonna be asequential release, so don't
expect part two to this?

Brad (01:10:42):
for a little bit, no.
But this book, like I said,it's, Seems very deep.
It's just, there's a lot to itand there's a lot of good stuff
into it, but it also feeds.
Trying to make it.

Martin (01:10:54):
Accessible and not super boring.

Brad (01:10:58):
Hopefully we can do that sometimes.

Dylan (01:11:01):
Guess what.

Brad (01:11:02):
Sometimes it's gonna be boring, because sometimes shit's
boring.
Okay, so deal with it, figureit out, put it in your body, do
you would?

Dylan (01:11:09):
you like.
Can I do Jordan Peterson?
Yes, you can.
I don't have anything to read.
I don't know.
I don't have anything to readyou don't have a skeleton.
Quote no A skeleton.

Brad (01:11:17):
Oh, pull up a Morals.
Let's just have a story.
Can you pull up like a JordanPeterson quote and I'll read it?
Okay, okay, so I got it, mm-hmm.
Oh, one of my friends did sendme the the Jordan Peterson
coming to Davenport thing.

Dylan (01:11:32):
Are you going?
There you go.
This one's good, actually.
Are you going?

Martin (01:11:35):
I thought a year he came in, what no?
He's year of 18th of February.

Dylan (01:11:39):
Oh, that's coming up.
It's a Sunday, the day before Ileave for Mexico.
We need to talk about, by theway, because we gotta pump some
episodes up before then.

Brad (01:11:45):
Okay, we don't talk about, We'll talk about what's coming
up in the future, okay, okay.
First I gotta get to in myKermit, kermit, I gotta start
talking like Kermit.
You're not everything you couldbe, and you know it.
That's it.

Dylan (01:12:00):
Okay, that was good, thanks guys.

Brad (01:12:02):
That's really his quote.

Martin (01:12:04):
You're still here.
It's over, go home.

Brad (01:12:17):
Go.