March 26, 2024 • 59 mins
Embark on a philosophical adventure with us and our special guest Annie, as we peel back the layers of the Ship of Theseus puzzle. It's not just an ancient paradox; it's a lively debate about the very core of identity that still captures the imagination today. Throughout our episode, we trace the lines between the tangible and intangible, contemplating whether we, like the storied ship, remain 'us' amidst the ebb and flow of change. We're not just talking planks and nails here—this is about the essence of being, from the cars we drive to the art that moves us.
As we traverse the landscapes of self and society, we ponder the metamorphosis of identity through the lens of both philosophy and the everyday. How do the parts of our lives—our experiences, memories, and relationships—shape the whole of who we are? The discussion takes a turn through the practical implications of our musings, examining how personal transformation clashes with societal measures of responsibility, from parole boards to brain transplants. We tease apart notions of the self with nods to pop culture favorites like "Primal Fear" and "Black Mirror," proving that this ancient conundrum is as relevant as ever in the modern world.
Closing our episode, we reflect on the fleeting nature of our personas, drawing from the world of celebrity and our personal narratives. Does a name change signify a shift in identity, or is it mere semantics? What is the value of the moments we've lived if our future selves are strangers to them? Join us as we ponder these questions, leaving you with a deeper curiosity about the memories you cherish, the legacy you'll leave, and the enigmatic nature of the 'you' that's listening right now.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dylan (00:00):
This is the Terribly Unoblivious Podcast.
Brad (00:03):
Yep, I said it before and I'll say it again Life moves
pretty fast.
You don't stop and look aroundonce in a while.
You could miss it.
I don't feel like you're hereright now.
Dylan (00:24):
I'm physically here.
Mentally, I'm trying to get inthe game.
Why did you think?
I just took that deep breath.
Obviously, our listeners whoare going to listen to this
probably won't know that wedidn't post this yesterday,
because yesterday was yesterdayand today is today, which means
we can't post in the past.
No, we didn't have a Fridayepisode either.
It's pretty disappointing break.
(00:46):
Yeah, I don't really fall in.
Oh, we do have a guest todayspring break spring annie next
week.
I'm on spring break too, sodon't expect much from here on
out I think the listeners shouldknow that we just have kind of
given up and we're calling itquits.
Yeah, wow, that was a.
(01:08):
Was that an angry yeah?
Brad (01:10):
Was that a happy Annie?
You never want to see me again,or no, don't jump off the roof.
I can't tell.
I don't know either with herman.
I haven't been around herenough to know what her cries
mean.
So are you here?
Dylan (01:27):
I'm getting into it.
Brad (01:28):
I see dylan here, I'm getting better because your
physical body is here.
Does that mean you're here?
Dylan (01:35):
um, I'm self actualizing and three of my other bodies
right now to make sure that I'mdoing three times the work as
every other finance, bro you gotthree other bodies.
Brad (01:43):
I got three other bodies.
Which one is the real, dylan.
This is a really good intro tothis topic.
Dylan (01:49):
It's really good the one making the most money, the one
being the most productive that'sthe most dylan.
Brad (01:55):
Yeah, no, not the most dylan, it's the real.
What's which one is the real?
Dylan (02:01):
dylan, the one that works 24 hours a day.
Brad (02:03):
Okay.
Well, we're going to get into ascenario here where that's
plausible in a sci-fi sort ofway.
So today we're going to do alittle bit of a logic thought
puzzle.
Okay, there are how I sent youthis a while ago.
I think Shannon bought me thisbook.
(02:24):
A long thought puzzle.
Okay, there are how I sent youthis while ago.
I don't know.
I think Shana bought me thisbook a long time ago.
Dylan (02:29):
50 philosophy ideas you really need to know.
I think that's fun.
I think this is fun by BenDupree.
So just thought process here iswell yeah if he has a little
accent on the E, then I thinkyou have to, then I think you
have to, I think you have toraise the voice at the end so he
, he breaks the book down intodifferent parts, so different
(02:52):
types of philosophies orsomething like that.
Brad (02:54):
But they're all just little like four page blips on
different topics and ideas andthings like that and, uh, some
of them run together.
As I'm starting to go throughthe one we're going to cover
today, I started thinking aboutlike 12 different things and a
bunch of them are in this bookalso.
Dylan (03:12):
You're like no yeah, stay focused, it's just this one
sensory overload but it's.
Brad (03:17):
It's very easy to slip into the deep, dark philosophy
hole.
But there I was, just in afirewall hole.
Yeah, that sounds hot.
Dylan (03:27):
We currently don't have internet, get it.
It's a firewall joke, hot takes.
But today is not a hot takesepisode, or is it?
I guess it's the way we raiseand lower our voices.
Brad (03:41):
Alright, so this is from the book 50 Philosophy Ideas.
You Need to philosophy ideas,you need to know, okay, really,
need to know Really.
Dylan (03:48):
Maybe, maybe buy the book from Amazon link in the bio.
Brad (03:53):
Yeah, or, and then just follow it along.
Dylan (03:56):
You could, we don't, we don't make any affiliate money.
If they buy it from theirbookstore, you.
But if they click the link andbuy it, we make like five cents
yeah, but no, we don't like, Idon't like that.
Brad (04:05):
You gotta go support your local bookstores, not bam okay,
or or maybe okay.
Maybe that's the only one yougot yeah, I don't know that's
kind of a throwback, though, toamazon amazon buying books yeah,
well, it's the original use ofamazon, I know.
Dylan (04:24):
And then they uh, they partnered with borders for a
while, which is now um bam,bought the subset of locations
that were the most profitable.
I feel like this is better.
Yeah, they um nerdier.
They tried to grow aggressivelyand they made some missteps
along the way orders did, yeahthey, they really leveraged
(04:44):
themselves out and they didn'tyou know what it was?
What french berets did theywear french?
There's too many french beretsthere like madeline, style.
Brad (04:54):
Yeah, oh okay lattes, berets, anything that ends in
ets, but sounds like a.
Dylan (05:02):
Oh yeah, I know what you're saying, okay, okay all
right.
Brad (05:06):
So today is the ship of theseus never heard of it.
Dylan (05:11):
Is it like when you pull the plug and the ship goes down?
What's that called?
I?
Brad (05:16):
don't know, that's not the ship of theseus.
All right, so my some of youfor how?
Dylan (05:24):
how broad's the beam like ?
Give me some dimensions.
She she a ton.
Brad (05:27):
She she an ocean ton oh, but this is greek ship ology, so
okay, however big that has tobe to carry so we're not talking
.
Dylan (05:39):
Remember, did you see the ?
Uh?
We're not talking like um whatwas the brad pitt greek?
We're not talking the uh moviered sea, um fiasco right now no,
this is not right now.
Oh okay, no, no this is allwood, all right.
I was wondering if pirates weregoing to be involved uh, no
pirates either.
Brad (05:56):
No, I don't think it was a thing.
Okay, I'm bored, okay, so theship of theseus?
All right, right.
From Greek mythology, theseuswas a mythical king and founder
of the city of Athens.
Somehow he traveled to, was itthe country or island of Crete,
(06:17):
you know?
Back in the good old days.
Dylan (06:19):
Oh yeah, that's where concrete was invented, shut up,
okay, was it?
Brad (06:22):
No, god damn it Got me.
Concrete was invented, and heShut up Okay, was it?
No, god damn it Got me Concrete.
He slayed a minotaur.
Know what a minotaur is?
Dylan (06:33):
No, cyclops, not Cyclops.
No, what A minotaur is thehorned beast?
Was it the horse?
The horned beast Is it?
I don't know.
The Horned Beast Is it?
I don't know.
Brad (06:43):
I thought it was a bull.
No, yeah, no, maybe it lookslike a bull.
Okay, corbin was just watchingsomething about man of Tars the
other day.
Dylan (06:52):
Is he watching Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief,
Like that whole series?
Oh no.
Brad (06:57):
It was a cartoon, something at the end of the
world.
It's the head of a bull and thetail.
Dylan (07:06):
Okay, at the end of the world, it's the head of a bull
in the tail, okay, the tail of.
Wait, the head and the tail ofa bull in the body of a man.
Oh, a big man or a little.
Oh, he was in the labyrinth,that's, minotaurs were in the
labyrinth.
Yes and uh, delius and his son,icarus.
Icarus flew too close to thesun?
Brad (07:19):
he sure did.
He got a little sunburned, yeah.
So, uh, mythical King he goesto create.
Apparently the Minotaur had uhcaptured a bunch of kids.
Dylan (07:30):
No, yeah, he was a he was into slave trading or something
.
I think he reincarnated intothe creepy guy and uh, cheat,
cheat, bang bang.
Brad (07:39):
Didn't see that movie.
Dylan (07:48):
Oh movie.
Oh okay, put on the list it's.
I add it.
This is such a weird.
We're analog right now becauseI don't have a laptop in front,
which actually probably makes memore engaged.
Brad (07:53):
It it does.
Okay, I like this.
Dylan (07:54):
Okay, so he goes, slays the minotaur if any of these
guys children if any of you guysare looking to become a sound
engineer, let us know.
We know we need a lookup guyand a sound engineer, so
continue.
Brad (08:06):
Thank you, so he frees these children and they escape
onto a ship heading to Delos.
So, he slays the minotaur,saves all these kids.
Everybody's super happy aboutit, yay.
And somebody says, but did youdie?
And he's like no, of course Ididn't die, I'm the best, but
(08:27):
did you die?
Yeah, he's a king and thepeople are so enamored by his
performance.
Dylan (08:37):
Okay.
Brad (08:39):
That they decide to commemorate his good deed.
So they take the ship each yearon a pilgrimage to Delos to
honor Apollo.
I don't know why they'rehonoring Apollo, but he's a god,
I don't know.
Sun god had something to dowith Athens, yeah.
So the question eventuallybecomes because they take this
pilgrimage every year andbecause the ship is in use for
(09:01):
every year and thiscommemoration lasts for hundreds
of years, philosopherseventually start asking this
question, which is after severalhundred years of maintenance,
if all of the original pieces ofthe wooden ship had been
replaced, is it still the shipof Theseus?
(09:25):
So you have an original shipand through years and years of
use, the wood rots and each year, maybe, you replace one or two
planks and at the end of severalhundred years you have the same
ship.
Okay, all new boards, okay.
(09:48):
So say, there's a thousandplanks on that ship, yeah, and
you replace two in 500 years youget a whole new ship.
Okay.
So is it still the same ship?
This is the puzzle.
Okay, any early comments?
Dylan (10:09):
There's some.
Buddhist uh, there's some uh,buddhist, um, there's some
buddhist, uh crossover here.
There's some, some things therelike I'm just pulling from a
deep well memory right now, butI read a couple buddhism,
buddhist books when I wasyounger and they, they, they use
the analogy of if you, if youreplaced every part of the car,
you know, if you're doing a carrestoration by the end, is it
(10:29):
still the same?
Brad (10:30):
and I would have to, I would have to research further,
but I know there's some yeah,there's lots of variations.
There's variations of this.
They actually the story hestarts out with is a car story
here, a new carburetor yeah, you, yeah, you start replacing all
new heads, new gaskets, right isit.
Is it the car?
Is it still the same car?
(10:51):
Okay, well, maybe, yeah, maybenot.
But uh, almost 2 000 yearslater, a uh another philosopher,
thomas hobbes, kind ofresurrects the story, and
there's all kinds of iterationsof the story.
There's one involves, like agrandpa's axe, you know, so
years of use, and suddenly youreplace the handle and then you
(11:15):
replace the head, and is it thesame axe?
And blah, blah, blah.
That's a little bit lessinvolved because there's only
basically two parts to it Alittle bit of metal, a little
bit of metal a little bit ofwood yes, so there's some other
uh topics including uh.
I think there's a chapter or twoafter this where it's it's.
It's talking about what whatnumber of grains of sand compile
(11:39):
a heap of sand?
Is it a hundred thousand?
And if it's not a hundredthousand, is it 99, the minimum?
Dylan (11:54):
thousand is whatever.
So it becomes very subjectiveyeah, so at some point there's
an easy metric there.
Brad (12:02):
Some people might say well , eventually, if you replace too
many boards, then it's notgoing to be the ship anymore.
You're like okay, but whatpoint is it?
500 or the 600 planks out of athousand to the 800.
I don't know.
So Thomas Hobbes adds a a newelement to this.
Okay, so as the ship rots,you're replacing the boards.
(12:26):
Right, piece of cake.
That's the thought experimentnow do you want to unmute
yourself or not?
You just want to do it that way.
Dylan (12:34):
Oh, was I muted yeah, something, I'm sorry, I like
that okay, that's better.
Brad (12:38):
So now I can still hear myself.
That was the problem.
As they replace the boards,somebody, some little, some
little stinker, is keeping theold, rotten boards and
eventually he's got all theoriginal boards of the ship,
okay, and he puts all thoseboards back together in the
original shape of the ship.
So now you have the originalship that has been replaced with
(13:05):
all new boards and you alsohave all of the old boards that
have been built back intoanother ship.
So which one is the ship ofTheseus?
Dylan (13:21):
The one where the collector will pay the most
amount of money for Ooh.
Brad (13:25):
Okay, so your identity is all monetary based.
Dylan (13:30):
I think free market normally decides these things
for us, okay.
Brad (13:34):
So um, what I did not anticipate was econ coming into
this.
Dylan (13:40):
I so there's this awesome documentary on.
Netflix?
I don't.
It's not a netflix specific one, I think it's just something
they hope they host goodwillhunting.
Uh, I, I don't have that one upright.
Do you know how easy this isfor me?
That's my favorite documentary.
Yeah, it's one of my favoritestoo.
No, um, it was the one of thegreatest art forgery schemes
(14:07):
ever.
Oh, yeah, you talked about thisone time and to the point.
There's this guy that wasfooling everyone I mean the
quote unquote, foremost expertsand it wasn't until for a given
style, for a given artist.
This guy had a wide range.
He could do Pollock, he coulddo um, or he did three.
(14:31):
Really, really well, pollock'sthe one that just jumps to mind
the fastest.
I think he had Picasso's inthere because he had a.
There was a story he did, storyhe did.
He did late 1800s.
The early to early 1950s waskind of his artist um profile.
(14:51):
And the reason he did it is hisfence was this woman who said
she had a very wealthy family.
That was, I don't rememberthere was some nazi influence or
not.
Maybe they.
They left germany to go toargentina and they had this
crazy what's in argentina?
they had this crazy artcollection and then they you
(15:14):
know now through the years, soshe had this whole backstory
that was like very like why.
And the reason was we've neverseen these works before.
They were all originals, butthey passed the sniff test okay,
all the way to the point of itwas only until there was some
crazy experimental science, kindof cracking the code on these
(15:34):
things.
Um, but one of the lawyers atthe end, who rep I don't
remember which side herepresented, but he had a piece
of art from the forgery hangingin his office and he just goes.
What is art?
Is it actually art or is itsomebody's hand touched it?
(15:55):
He goes because, according toeveryone, this painting seven
years ago was worth 15 milliondollars.
And he goes, and by allaccounts, because that person
didn't touch it, even though itlooks, smells, seems the same as
every other one he's ever done.
It's worth like seven dollarsnow and it hangs in my hangs in
my um office.
(16:16):
Yes, so the free market kind ofdecides those things.
I I think which is there's a,there's myriad or there's
there's.
There's a lot of different waysto go about that, but then it's
what the masses will identifyas value and then pay for.
Brad (16:33):
But also there is a sense of the original, the original.
But because he because herecreated something that
somebody else created.
Dylan (16:43):
So if some sneaky guy is stealing all the OG boards, yes,
and he builds it all again,yeah, okay, that's probably the
one that makes it.
I don't know, I mean becausewe're going to get into it.
Okay, let's get into it.
Brad (17:00):
So with the introduction of the new ship, which is out of
all the old parts, now we getinto these two principles.
Okay, so, gradual replacementprinciple so this is what we
started off with is composed ofso many parts and a single part
of that object is replaced,producing object y.
(17:23):
Then objects x and y are thesame object.
So if we're taking two planksout of the ship and putting two
new planks in, we're notrenaming the ship.
Okay, guys, we?
I just listen, I know I filledthis not in on this table right
here this is's Fred 2.
This is a new table.
Dylan (17:43):
It's Fred 2.
Now I made a new table.
It's not Fred 1 anymore, it'sFred 2.
What's Fred 2?
Brad (17:48):
I don't know what's Fred 1?
.
Dylan (17:49):
Fred died, so we can't talk about Fred George still
living, though.
Brad (17:53):
What.
Dylan (17:54):
Weasley twins, harry Potter In real life?
No, in the books.
Brad (17:59):
Oh, they died one of them really yeah it's been a while
battle of hogwarts man yeah,there are some casualties.
So that's gradual replacementprinciple.
Now there's also the same partsprinciple.
So if object x and object yshare all and only the same
(18:21):
exact parts, arranged in exactlythe same way, then objects x
and y are the same object.
So the ship when it firststarted out as all of the
original parts and then, athousand years later, all of the
original parts.
Right, yeah, those two are thesame thing, are?
they really I don't know.
(18:41):
That's it's possible Is.
Is that more the same ship thanthan the old one?
Dylan (18:48):
Uh, depends on the, uh, the wood, it does the density
Did they?
Did they get old?
They get old trees.
Or did they get new trees withthe, with the shitty life rings
on them?
Brad (18:59):
oh, they're so shitty life rings, guys I don't even want
to talk about wood I can't do it.
Dylan (19:05):
Oh my grandpa, my grandpa , just go down the rabbit hole.
Do you ever demo an old house?
And you just look at the two byfours and you just see yeah,
you know how people go intohouses and steal copper.
Brad (19:17):
Yeah, yeah, I steal all the old two by fours.
Dylan (19:19):
Yeah, yeah, I steal all the old 2x4s.
You're not using thisload-bearing wall.
You don't need this.
Brad (19:25):
This house is demoed.
There's no studs here, though.
Dylan (19:30):
What happened?
The stud thief came again inthe night Ripped them all out.
It's just a little sag, that'sall it is Left, all this copper,
though Just a little sag.
Brad (19:39):
You'll never even know.
Okay, so this leads us to thisother idea of logic.
So it's transitivity,transitivity, transitivity.
Dylan (19:49):
Transitivity.
Brad (19:50):
Yes, is that the?
Dylan (19:51):
transitive property in math.
Brad (19:53):
I think that's exactly what it is.
Dylan (19:56):
So A equals B, B equals C , A equals C.
Brad (19:59):
Okay, right, yeah, so A is exactly the same as B and B is
exactly the same as C.
Dylan (20:06):
Unless it's I.
Brad (20:07):
Therefore A equals C.
I can't do I right now.
I know we're just fucking withyou.
Okay, we're going to get theresomeday.
Dylan (20:13):
Continue.
We're not doing I.
A will never equal I.
It's okay.
Brad (20:17):
No, because it's imaginary , right?
Okay, so let's go back to theship.
The original ship is A, got itAll the new parts, that's ship B
, and the reconstructed ship outof the old parts that we kept
(20:39):
is C Right, Got it so.
Dylan (20:43):
Wait a minute, do it again, do it again.
Brad (20:46):
The very original ship is A.
Dylan (20:47):
Okay, og ship.
Brad (20:51):
A yes, okay, the ship that now has all the new parts, all
new parts.
B Okay, and then thereconstructed ship out of the
old parts.
Reconstruction is?
Dylan (21:04):
c?
Are we talking about nails,glue, all of it to be identical
okay like, but are you?
You're getting into theminutiae.
Are you recycling the nailsfrom a to make b?
Are you recycling nails from ato make c?
Do?
Brad (21:19):
you think they did glue I?
Dylan (21:21):
think they used glue.
Little honey, little wheat Go along way Glue.
When did glue get invented?
Egyptian times, was it?
It's BC.
Brad (21:29):
I saw a meme the other day that said can you imagine the
guy that invented glue?
And it's two guys at a bar andthe guy's like you know I bet if
we melt horses down it'd getreally sticky and we could stick
stuff together with it and hisfriend goes is everything okay
at home?
It's kind of crazy.
Dylan (21:50):
Wait a minute.
Elmer's is a cow.
Is it a cow?
What's the logo of Elmer's?
I was going to be really upsetif it was a horse.
Is it a bull?
Is Elmer's a bull?
I feel like it might be a bull.
That'd is it a bowl?
Is elmer's?
Brad (22:07):
a bowl.
I feel like it might be a bowl.
Dylan (22:08):
That'd be really on the nose, wouldn't it?
Or on the hook there's glue,okay, so so the transit power
symbol, now transitivityproperties okay would say that a
equals b, so that's the gradualreplacement principle got.
Brad (22:18):
So the original ship to the all new parts ship.
That's gradual replacement.
But a also equals C, which isthe same parts principle.
So all the same parts from theoriginal ship end up in the same
, in the C ship as old parts butthe same pieces.
Okay, but then if we used thattransitivity property of
(22:43):
identity, we would also have tosay that B equals C, and that
cannot be, because the ship withall the new parts cannot be the
same thing as the ship with allof the old parts.
Okay, see where we're goinghere.
We're running into someproblems yeah, okay, so we're
(23:06):
not really running into problemsthat's.
Dylan (23:07):
That's kind of a problem, okay a doesn't equal b and b
doesn't equal c.
What I'm just telling you a isnot going to equal b, a is not
going to equal b.
No, how are you going to?
How are you going to get thesame dimension, lumber exact
every time to the micron?
Brad (23:24):
You do understand a thought experiment.
Dylan (23:25):
Right, I do understand the thought experiment, but that
is the same thing though.
Like, okay, remove a thoughtfrom me and give it to you, how
are you going to have the exactsame feelings and thoughts and
emotions around it?
We're going there.
Yeah, exactly, we're goingthere.
That's what I know, but that'swhat.
Brad (23:38):
I'm saying we're going there.
Yeah, exactly, we're goingthere.
That's what I know.
But that's what I'm sayingwe're getting there.
Dylan (23:42):
It's super easy.
This is what happens whenpeople fucking overgeneralize.
Sorry, I've had a lot of peopleovergeneralize this week, so
I'm going to get hostile herereal fast.
Don't do that, okay.
Brad (23:52):
Not towards you, just the ether.
Okay, we're going to run intosome problems.
So either one of thoseprinciples is wrong, so either
that gradual replacementprinciple is wrong.
It says okay, yes, there is athreshold, that eventually, when
something changes so much itceases to be the original thing,
(24:13):
okay, okay, or the same partsprinciple is not correct.
So all of those parts in thisscenario, you take them out of
that scenario and you put themelsewhere.
It doesn't mean that's the samething or it's the entire
transitivity principle ofidentity.
That's wrong.
So one of those three thingshas to be wrong, but which one
(24:37):
is it?
So we're going to play thisgame.
We don't really know.
Okay, this is part of thepuzzle, all right.
So we're going to play thisgame.
We don't really know.
Okay, this is part of thepuzzle, all right, we're going.
So now we go back to Hobbs.
So he's rejecting.
Do you have?
Dylan (24:47):
a synopsis on Hobbs.
Do you have a quick history?
I think he was a tiger.
Brad (24:54):
He has some stuff named after him Thomas Mm-hmm.
Dylan (24:57):
The train?
Brad (24:58):
No, not the train uh, what did he do?
He did like the leviathan orsomething like that was one of
his main works.
Okay, he was around in like the1650s, if you want to look him
up.
Dylan (25:15):
I think I probably studied him about 22 years ago.
Brad (25:17):
okay, so he rejects the gradual replacement principle in
regards to material things,material bodies.
So if some part of the firstmaterial has been removed or
another part has been added,that ship will be another being
or another entity.
Right, social contract.
Oh yeah, that's right.
Dylan (25:38):
Yeah, Leviathan the corporate.
Brad (25:42):
What's up, right yeah, leviathan the corporate.
Dylan (25:44):
What's up the civet?
Yeah, yeah.
Brad (25:46):
However, when regarding ever-changing items.
So let's take people, okay,rivers, nations, right.
So we say it's the MississippiRiver, right?
Well, what makes it the riverthe Mississippi?
Yeah, geographical location,okay.
So what happens?
It?
The river the mississippi?
Yeah, geographical location,okay.
So what happens when the riverchanges?
Dylan (26:06):
rivers change paths over a course of time yeah, yeah
still same river still the sameriver, okay okay, it changes
water, right, water change rate.
Brad (26:16):
So it's not the same water , yeah, still same river.
It's not the same moleculesthey moved on.
Oh, so it's not the same water,yeah, still the same river.
Dylan (26:21):
It's not the same molecules.
They moved on, oh so it's thesame molecules.
Okay.
Brad (26:26):
Okay.
Dylan (26:27):
Okay.
Brad (26:28):
Whatever.
So he in that sense, rejectsthe same parts principle.
So is sameness of body allowingfor parts to be switched out
over time.
So is this a criteria forpersonal identity?
So think of like what we switchout, like we have different
(26:52):
thoughts, different feelings.
Your cells die and regenerate,right.
So at what point are you adifferent person?
Are you always the same person?
Dylan (27:07):
so we're conflating identity with an identity.
For the river, for instance, isgeographic coordinates with the
actual makeup compositionally,because at any given point the
chemical makeup of themississippi is going to be
different.
Brad (27:23):
Yeah, so yeah, so all those tractors in it.
Dylan (27:25):
Yeah, so you really kind of have two beings.
You have the identity portionand that is broken down into how
you want to classify thoseidentifications.
You know it could be name, itcould be traits, even though
(27:45):
those traits might not those I'dtrick.
Identifying traits might nothold true to the person inside.
You could be suicidal, but thenyou go through some great
therapy and you're not suicidalanymore.
But people are like, oh, that'sa suicide guy.
And you're like, well, that wasa suicide guy.
And you're like, well, that wasthe suicide guy, but that's not
really an identifying trait forhim anymore, because those
(28:06):
thoughts, patterns, emotionshave changed.
Brad (28:08):
Okay, so, before we get to the next section, because you
went exactly where I went withthat, so I kind of stopped at
that point, okay, and it waslike just a little FYI for the
listener right now I dylan hasno notes.
Dylan (28:23):
We have no notes.
Brad has great notes.
Actually, I have no notes that.
I have minimal notes, but morethan you, and we did not talk
about this episode at all beforewe hit the record button, no.
Brad (28:34):
So the first thing that my mind went to was incarceration.
Oh so you committed a crime,and you committed a crime based
on a set of circumstances and athought pattern and whatever
else right.
So at what point say in thefuture where you have totally
(28:55):
changed your mind about what youshould be doing with your life
and how you should act andthings like that Are you a
different person?
So now are you incarcerated asa different person for something
that you did not commit?
But there's a continuity there,because your body did commit it
(29:15):
, but your mind is a differentthing.
Dylan (29:18):
Yeah, so that probably goes to what's the best way to
say this when the state needs aquota.
I mean prisons.
Prisons make a decent amount ofmoney, um?
No, the law doesn't.
This is the problem is, thisisn't explicitly laid out, and
if it is, lawyers, you can comeback at us in the comments, uh,
(29:41):
and tell us that we're wrong.
When you commit a crime,there's this punishment that
says you are going to bepunished for this.
What it doesn't say is you andevery iteration of you, you're
giving up future self-use, umability to be free.
So understand that you're notjust sacrificing you in the
(30:03):
moments, freedoms later, you'resacrificing every iteration of
you and the and I think that'swhere parole comes in a little
bit which is parole if you,parole was the ability to say,
hey, they have beenrehabilitated, because what the
correct term for prison is?
(30:23):
rehabilitation, which is whetherwhich is we can, that's a whole
other episode, but at the endof the day the whole, the whole
point of the justice system isrehabilitate so that you can go
function in the norm is thewhole point of the justice
system it's the intention, it'snot the there's difference, but
but there's an interesting pointin there as to when.
Brad (30:46):
When do they decide that you are a different person also?
So that does.
I mean that does kind of staywith the topic there.
So from the parole boards my.
Dylan (30:58):
You know what?
My bunk mate.
He took all my wood man.
He's the one trying to do newbank robbery, not me.
You're like what he took whatdo you mean?
Brad (31:06):
what?
Dylan (31:06):
do you mean he took wood, like?
I know, like he's just, he justtook my parts and built a new
ship over there.
That was old me.
Brad (31:15):
Now I'm the copper bandit, uh, but yeah, I mean, they
literally are doing this thoughtexperiment as to are you now a
different person.
Has enough changed in you thatyou are now a different person?
Dylan (31:30):
Have you seen Primal Fear ?
Yeah, with Ed Norton.
Yeah, wow, I did.
I said, yes, I don't have awinning.
I don't have a winning Good.
Brad (31:41):
Okay.
Dylan (31:41):
Good, okay, good, I think Primal Fears for anyone who
hasn't seen it.
I'm not going to ruin it foryou because it's an awesome
awesome.
Also, it's 30 years old.
It's an awesome movie, but it'sRichard Gere, Edward Norman.
But if anybody ever took theusual suspects away from me,
like if anybody ever ruined thatfor me, I've also seen that one
(32:03):
Proud of you.
Brad (32:05):
But how good was it?
Not as good as the Key andPeele sketch.
Okay, yeah, but on Meow Street.
Dylan (32:21):
I've completely lost my train of thought.
Brad (32:23):
Oh no um hang in there, detective it's a lot like that.
Dylan (32:28):
Yeah, it's now.
So what's happened?
Is you, in your previousversion of yourself, sacrificed
the future versions of you goingto parole?
Okay, how does somebody decide?
And that is the problem, causeif you watch primal fear, you're
like, well, some people arereally good and they can say the
(32:53):
right things, check the rightboxes, make other people feel
the right emotions actors,academy awards, and yeah, okay,
they get to go free.
But somebody who is actuallychanged just doesn't know how to
convey that to a panel.
Yeah, that's the problem, andso it's purely subjective and so
(33:14):
that needs to go along with it.
At the get go of your sentence,it's yeah, you fuck up.
There's a.
You know parole is anopportunity, but also understand
that it's a game and if youdon't play it right, you're
probably not going to get there,even if you are a good person.
Yeah, that's a whole otherthing, but we've gone down some
(33:35):
good side roads here.
Brad (33:36):
Not really they all.
They're all kind of involved inthis.
Dylan (33:40):
I know.
Brad (33:40):
Well, I just those things I haven't thought about for a
while.
So we're kind of talking about.
So the ship is the physicalpart, right?
So when we're talking aboutidentity, I don't.
Dylan (33:51):
Is it because your point like it's the ship because it's
named something, the name has nophysical bearing?
No so it's just anidentification, it's just
choosing how you identify.
Brad (34:04):
Yes, but also in that sense the ship, if the ship did
something.
Dylan (34:08):
Ship broadened the beam.
It's like, okay yeah.
Brad (34:11):
But the ship did something .
That's why they were committed.
The ship traveled and savedpeople, and it was part of a
thing an event, an idea.
That happened Okay, and sothere's also a but portion of
that.
Dylan (34:26):
Yes, but that's attached to the name.
Brad (34:30):
If you go, yeah, but a name is an idea.
Dylan (34:32):
Exactly so.
What I'm saying is that wouldmeans nothing.
Brad (34:37):
Okay, so the idea means something.
It's what you get people torally around.
Dylan (34:43):
That's what means something.
Brad (34:44):
Okay, so we want to go with ideas.
It's so we're going going.
We're going more mental.
Let's go on with the brain.
We're going with the ether,going with the brain okay all
right.
So there's some other fun waysthat we can do about do this.
Keep dissecting, let's go ifsomeday it's possible to do a
(35:04):
brain transplant.
Oh, yeah our intuition?
Are we talking about like faceoff?
Dylan (35:11):
but better okay yeah, nick cage, I like that.
Brad (35:15):
You've seen that one too you're doing really well on this
episode a bunch you're doingreally well on this episode I've
seen.
I've seen bad movies a wholebunch of times okay, yeah, so
you.
Dylan (35:25):
So you're a B-list guy.
Brad (35:28):
Sometimes Okay yeah, all right.
So our intuition would be Notjudgmental.
Dylan (35:35):
Yeah, I'm curious, I'm curious that if I put my brain
into your body right, so You'dbe really depressed.
You didn't have this your wholelife.
Brad (35:52):
You also would be.
Oh, oh, you wouldn't be,because you'd be my brain.
Yeah, I'd be really upset.
You don't have a brain anymore,so it were more likely to say
that your body received a newbrain, right?
Dylan (36:04):
no, okay, my your brain received a new body.
Brad (36:08):
Yes, okay, it's kind of what, but our brain received a
new body, not that the bodyreceived a new show on netflix
that did this um black mirror.
Dylan (36:17):
No, no it was it was actually.
I watched the first season andthen the second season.
I didn't get into um, itdoesn't matter, but essentially
they learned how to.
It was kind of like sciencemeets religion in a way, where
they they learned how to we'llcall it your soul.
(36:37):
They captured your soul insideof a microchip, okay, and then a
little bit of like your brainmemories, all these things, but
okay, and then they would justupload that program into a hard
drive or whatever and they'd belike, okay, well, you committed
a crime.
300 years from now, when yoursentence is up, you can come
back, which the whole punishment?
(36:58):
There was everyone around youyou love and died, and it's
going to be really hard for youto reacclimate when you come in
back.
So, or they had these.
Brad (37:06):
I don't like this.
Yeah, what was that?
It's kind of like the what wasthe Tom Cruise one.
Dylan (37:11):
So there's this.
The whole premise of this isthere's this old kind of like
super soldier assassin guy thatthey want to bring back to try
to figure out a murder.
Brad (37:25):
Is this Demolition man?
Dylan (37:26):
It's kind of like demolition man that's flicks
brain swap show.
I don't know all right.
Brad (37:34):
So altered carbon?
Oh, I did not see that one.
Yeah, altered carbon, and thenin like season two he gets
another body, like.
Dylan (37:40):
So the main character has like one body and then he has a
different body, so it's adifferent actor.
Brad (37:45):
Yeah, so are.
Are we saying it's the brainwhich we're still talking, a
physical thing, right?
So now I put my brain in yourbody.
Okay, are you me now, becauseyou have my brain probably
probably, but it's not.
It's the controller, but it'sprobably not from just the meat
(38:07):
of the brain, right?
Dylan (38:09):
okay in the sense it's the things inside the meat.
Brad (38:13):
So the the meat is the hardware okay the.
The software is what we'reinterested in.
Dylan (38:19):
Okay, what's the software in the brain?
The thoughts and consciousnessand memories, and all of that,
so all the cells that align inspecific areas.
Brad (38:29):
Oh, do you gonna tell me the magic of how the brain works
?
No well, I'm open.
Dylan (38:34):
I don't have enough time right now to to explain the
origin of consciousness to meit's really hard to know
everything in this world so.
Brad (38:46):
So we kind of get into this thing where it's like, okay
, well, in that sense, whatmakes us up is maybe, maybe not
the hardware at all, right, sowe're looking again, we're
looking more towardsself-identity.
That's what this is leadinginto.
Okay, so the the thoughtexperiment is not fun when we're
(39:07):
talking about ships and carsevery average size guy right now
is saying thank you really oh,do they like the car thing now?
Dylan (39:17):
it's probably talking about.
It's a small dick joke whatit's not about the hardware.
It's not about the hardware.
Brad (39:23):
It's not about the hardware, it's about the
software.
I don't know what that means.
Yeah, so that leads us to.
If it's the software and it'sthe memories and the
consciousness and the behaviorsand the cellular activity and
(39:46):
electrical nuances between allthe connectors and conductors
and synapses, there you go.
That was the word you werelooking for.
Can't something else do that?
Yeah, there's a lot of peoplethat do that way better than you
, every day With everything, nota brain.
Dylan (40:03):
What you're doing right now.
Brad (40:06):
With a computer okay, so cpu central processing unit yes,
okay so this is when I wastalking to you off air about how
some of these chapters leadinto another one.
I think the very first one iscalled brain in a vat and
essentially it's abby, abby,normal.
It is a lot more like the, thematrix, where imagine that you
(40:33):
could take your brain out andhook it up to all kinds of
sensors and processors.
I thought you're going to talkabout the trinity sex scene.
Dylan (40:43):
They didn't know okay that didn't happen.
Brad (40:45):
Okay, did I get the edited version I don't know ps.
I still have to fill out formswhen I go see my therapist.
I even saw a different one andthey still made me feel damn, it
is that.
It's that bad.
I don't know, I haven't figuredit out?
I haven't figured it out, I'mbeginning to think it's a me
policy.
Dylan (41:04):
I think it is a you policy.
Do they take your shoelacesaway?
Brad (41:08):
no, I always wear cowboy boots.
Um, so it can.
If your brain is taken out ofyour body and hooked up to all
of the, the nerve endings andall of these kind of things,
would you be able to tell youknow, if you were not part of
the world?
Or there's a, there's acomputer that's just putting
(41:29):
inputs into those nerve endingsand, and, uh, synthesizing
things like that all right.
So so the material body, we'realways changing.
We're growing or not growing,or cells dying, regenerating,
losing tissue, losing body parts, losing 18 inches of your
intestines, you know, just basic, normal, normal, whatever.
(41:53):
So, um, it's not necessarilythe, the, the material part.
And also now we get to thesoftware and it's like, well,
that's uh, that's alsoquestionable.
You know, that's also changingconstantly, that's also changing
constantly and our thoughts arechanging, our ideas are
changing.
Hopefully, hopefully, some ofyour ideas are changing,
hopefully your ideas don't staythe same all the time.
Dylan (42:15):
You think you should establish your values at 18 and
just fucking hold on to them.
Just go for it.
Brad (42:22):
This is me.
Yeah, just like riding thetoboggan down the dam Hoover.
Yeah, making a big one.
Dylan (42:30):
Yeah, hold on tight I think one of my favorite damn
references is gonna be uh,goldeneye okay james bond.
Yeah, that's his.
That's.
That's pierce bronson's intro.
He blew up the dam.
Well, remember when he wasrunning down the dam?
And then he shoots, he jumpsoff the bungee jump because he's
got the guards chasing.
Okay, what was the tagline?
Which one?
Brad (42:47):
I don't know, whatever he said something surely, really.
Dylan (42:50):
No, that's interesting yeah, that's your introduction
to one of the greatest bondsever okay, so material, mental,
okay now, you don't havehardware without software.
Brad (43:04):
You don't have software without hardware okay, so we
have both of them, but both ofthem are ever changing.
They're ever changing and theyplay.
Dylan (43:11):
Yeah, they play roles.
Okay, there's compatibilityissues?
Brad (43:14):
Yes, so we still run into this, this principle, idea of
like.
Dylan (43:19):
I think philosophers are overcomplicating this to make
their lives easier, which is tomake their lives easier.
Yeah, please make their liveseasier, which is to make their
lives easier yeah, please tellme more the more confusing we
make everything, the more ourjobs, didn't you just?
Brad (43:30):
send me that meme the other day.
Which one?
Uh, people who read philosophyyeah and it's people in berets
and they're sipping coffee andsmoking cigarettes and no,
that's what like people thinkthey are.
Dylan (43:40):
And then it's.
And then it says actualphilosophers.
Brad (43:42):
It's people just ripping heaters, looking super dirty in
life yeah, he looked like he washaving a mental breakdown over
a table, yeah, that one was good.
I think that sums up prettygood.
So later in yeah, I don't havetime frame on this.
It's john lock.
Okay, you can look that up.
It's much later he comes at it.
(44:04):
So this is at it.
So this is probably Lock withan E, right?
Yeah?
Yeah, this is 20th, early 20thcentury mid 20th century.
He comes at it from apsychological perspective.
Okay, so saying that basically,our psychological continuity is
(44:24):
what identifies us as us, it'swhy we keep being ourselves, so
it's the sense that we are.
It's kind of that.
This is really early introphilosophy, where how do you
know you're the same person whenyou wake up as you were when
(44:45):
you went to sleep?
Yeah, was in.
He was an og enlightenment guyso, uh, it's, it's this thing
where there's, there's all ofthese overlapping elements of,
uh you know, part of yourhistory and enduring memories
and all of these things thatkind of coagulate into making
(45:09):
you you right, and so it's thestring that is ever attached to
each other through series ofevents and that's your memories
and feelings and recollectionsand and all of these things.
Now we're going gonna get to aproblem with the psychological
part.
(45:30):
Enter star trek shatner or umchris, it doesn't matter okay
but we're gonna get into thefuture, not back to the future
what?
Dylan (45:45):
no, I just want to make sure you don't have Parkinson's.
Thank you.
Brad (45:48):
All right, so imagine we're in a Star Trek style
transport system.
Dylan (45:53):
Okay.
Brad (45:54):
So this records your physical composition down to the
last atom and then transfers itsomewhere else.
So teleportation, right?
So we're going gonna leave ourstudio here and we're gonna end
up on the moon, right so?
Dylan (46:14):
like?
Are we talking like wallace andgromit go to the moon for
cheese?
No, okay, no, nope what episodewas that.
Brad (46:22):
I don't know what that is.
Dylan (46:23):
You don't know Wallace and Gromit?
Nope, that hurts man.
Brad (46:26):
Sounds like an old people show.
Dylan (46:28):
Okay, all right.
Brad (46:30):
So you arrive on the moon at the precise moment that your
body is completely gone here,right?
Mm-hmm, a grand day out, that'swhat it was.
So, if you adhere to thepsychological continuity thesis,
there's an uninterrupted streamof memory, et cetera, flowing
from the individual here to theone on the moon, right.
(46:54):
So you are still you, accordingto the psychological principle
that Locke is going towardsright, and so your identity is
clearly the same.
Right, and so your identity isclearly the same.
But suppose the transporterdidn't work properly, and now
(47:16):
you jumbled the bits.
It copied you from here andsent you there, but forgot to
annihilate you here.
So now you exist here and youexist there.
So which one is the real one?
Which one is the true one?
Dylan (47:33):
You know how we were talking about that.
You overcomplicate things.
Brad (47:36):
No, no, I'm really good looking.
Dylan (47:39):
Yeah, that one.
Brad (47:40):
Funny all the time.
Dylan (47:42):
It was you make a decision in your early self and
that makes consequences for allyour future selves.
I say we just kill bothversions.
Brad (47:53):
Okay, so logically we have an issue here, because from the
psychological perspective,they're both you right.
Yeah, but can there be two ofyou?
Dylan (48:09):
exactly, exactly, uh, yeah, yeah sure, I mean
scientifically.
All you have to do is replicateevery cell in the body exactly
the same way, okay, okay, nowlet's go.
Brad (48:23):
But that's not.
But that's not the principle.
Dylan (48:25):
So so brad.
This is what's gonna happen.
There's only gonna exist oneversion of you for one micro
second yes okay, okay.
So in that fleeting millisecond, okay, you are the exact same,
but your environments aredifferent.
(48:45):
So the moment you've replicatedand we'll say time stands still
for that millisecond and youhave no external outside
influences.
You are the same person, but ifyou're on the moon and you're
on earth, those are twodifferent wild environments.
Your external inputs into yourinternals are going to create
(49:10):
two different beings immediately.
You're so smart.
Brad (49:13):
I'm not smart.
You're so smart why?
Dylan (49:16):
Because that's where we're going.
It's environmental man.
Brad (49:20):
So you are temporarily, in that instant that the one is
transferred and exist in atotally different place.
Yeah, you are instantaneouslydifferent to the as one and
after that instant, you are nowtwo, two separate beings.
(49:41):
Yep, because of that, yes, yes,external influences.
So which one is the real one?
This is the problem.
No, it's not.
Yes, it is no, it's not.
Dylan (49:55):
How is it not so?
Brad (49:57):
but your concept the laser , laser beam so is it the one
that, because we we transferredyou it's?
Dylan (50:03):
you replicate?
There's a replication systemthere you're.
It's no different than we dovirtual machines you create a
copy and then one's living,one's being replicated and then
transfer over as a final final.
But do you see, logically, howthis is a problem?
Yeah, so you'd have tounderstand the underlying
technology of the beam.
You're going to talk about thelaser beam.
(50:24):
I'm telling you, yes, you haveto, because that is that is
fundamentally.
Are you doing a copy and deleteor are you doing so like if
that's a copy?
The idea is the copy and delete.
So the, the idea of the copyand delete is that means the
(50:47):
person on the moon is not you,the.
The original person is the onethat didn't get deleted.
Brad (50:49):
You don't wipe it out here .
That didn't get deleted.
That's the one here, but butthat one doesn't exist anymore.
No, you said that it it fuckedup.
Okay, so if it fucks up, sothat's the original one.
Yeah, so that's the originalone, even though, yeah,
everything else is exactly thesame but that's the same concept
of cloning.
Dylan (51:05):
It's like, yeah, cool, that's you, but it's not.
You, it's not, but it's not thesame.
Brad (51:10):
Yeah, you copy and delete it, so the original one's gone
because you have an inorganicmatter making organic matter but
what you're saying is becausethis one is here, this is the
one we copied, even thoughthey're both exactly the same
and they both psychologicallyhave the exact same continuation
(51:30):
.
Because this is the one wecopied, this is the original one
, and what that leads us tobelieve is because this one is
here and we copied it.
It's has something to do withthe material being of it.
Dylan (51:45):
Now, if you can transport , but they're the original which
leads us back to the originalproblem yeah, which is
underlying technology no, that'snot the original.
Brad (51:56):
The planks it's the wood planks, yeah, and that's why I
original problem the planks it'sthe wood planks, yeah, and
that's why I said it's thesecond ship.
That's all new.
Dylan (52:03):
No.
Brad (52:04):
Sorry, third ship, c ship.
Oh, the old stuff.
Yeah, oh, it's the old stuff.
Dylan (52:11):
The best part about the second one, b.
Yeah, a is the original, b isthe all new parts, c is the
reconstructed.
A is the original, b is the allnew parts, c is the
reconstructed.
Problem with B is that what'sour boy's name?
Brad (52:25):
Theseus, theseus.
He never touched the planks.
No, he didn't.
Oh, so this is the art thing.
Dylan (52:32):
It's the art, thing, okay .
All right so it's like thatplank touched the plank that
maybe touched him one time, solike transitively, but then
there's going to be a pointwhere it's going to be so
swathed out Transcendentalplankification.
There's going to be a pointwhere all the planks have been
changed so many times thatthere's no transitive property
of him originally being thereanymore.
Possibly, not possibly forrealsies.
Brad (52:55):
So so material.
So it's gotta be material.
What so material?
Dylan (53:00):
So it's got to be material.
What do you mean?
It's not got to be material,Okay?
Brad (53:06):
We're saying you see the puzzle part of this right?
Dylan (53:07):
No, it's not the puzzle part You're saying worth is by a
touch Like we're getting backdown to like.
Brad (53:12):
I'm not saying worth.
We're talking about identity,not worth.
Dylan (53:14):
Worth is the easiest identification of what the
market says is true.
Oh, easiest identification ofwhat the market says is true.
Brad (53:23):
Oh, it is.
So what's the worth of my brain, what's the worth of my memory?
What's the worth?
Dylan (53:26):
of my personality for, uh , not many people are going to
pay for you in the aftermarketokay, I disagree, I'm just I
disagree okay I feel like Iwould be an upgrade.
I'm not saying you wouldn't be,I'm just saying there are
people maybe a little bit aheadof you.
Dude philosophers used to lookdumb.
They don't.
They're not yeah.
Brad (53:48):
I like those crazy German ones.
They look more fun, kant yeah.
Wait is he French?
No, so to end this a little bit, uh, david hume another.
He's a scottish philosopher.
(54:10):
Oh, yeah 1700s.
He draws attention to theelusiveness of the self.
However hard you look in onyourself, you can only ever
detect individual thoughts,memories and experiences.
The self is hard you look in onyourself, you can only ever
detect individual thoughts,memories and experiences.
The self is no more than thepoint of view that makes sense
of our thought and experiences.
Dylan (54:29):
I was also reading somewhere, though it's like
trying to capture jello in yourhands yeah, that's why you
capture with your, your mouth.
I can't leave.
Brad (54:39):
Slip out.
Before we started, I did seesomething else and I thought it
was in here, but it has a lotmore to do with and I think you
touched on this.
So it's that instantaneoustemporal thing.
So the problem with Liketempura shrimp, no, oh, okay,
(55:00):
chicken.
Dylan (55:00):
Oh Sorry, okay Chicken, oh Sorry, shellfish allergy.
Brad (55:07):
That in these things that we're looking at, we're sort of
looking at them in a 3D sort ofsense instead of a 4D sense,
where time is Just not checkersanother major factor in it and
like underlying technology no,okay, I don't think so I'm gonna
(55:30):
go to bed with a nightmareabout that word.
I just I don't know, so what,so what.
Dylan (55:43):
So that, for those of you that weren't picking up on it,
we're talking about what makesyou you.
Is it the memories from longago?
Is it the now memories?
Is it the memories all around?
What is it?
Is this even worth thinkingabout?
Maybe it's your new prostheticarm.
I don't know, Could be.
I mean, we talked about this inan earlier episode, like I've
(56:07):
got some somebody else's bloodin me somebody else has your
blood in them double time now.
Brad (56:09):
So just get done with that one.
Can that?
Uh, yeah, I feel bad for thatguy.
What makes?
Dylan (56:11):
you, you.
If he picks up any of my quirks, he's gonna be in for a life of
pain I feel like there'sdefinitely a black mirror
episode about this Aliens.
I don't know if there is anAliens one oh, honestly.
I don't know.
I think Black Mirror's allabout like shit.
Brad (56:26):
That could actually happen in the present.
It's all this kind of stuff.
Dylan (56:29):
That's why I like it so much.
It is fun.
Brad (56:32):
It's also very scary.
Dylan (56:34):
Why?
Why is it scary?
Why is this scary?
Oh, this ship isn't that scary.
Brad (56:39):
This isn't that scary.
No, black Mirror is scary, butsome of this, some of this, I
think, is scary.
Yeah, I think it's just in thesense of how do you know you're
you, how?
Dylan (56:52):
do I know I'm me?
Yeah, because I wake up everymorning hating the world.
The exact same way.
Brad (56:59):
That's funny.
I wake up every morning feelinglike P Diddy.
Dylan (57:04):
Nailed it, the one on trial right now.
What Is he?
No, I think he's underinvestigation for some.
Murder.
Brad (57:11):
No, not this time.
Dylan (57:12):
Oh, pee, pee, I think some underage stuff oh.
Brad (57:16):
Like things he did when he was not P Diddy, puff Daddy.
Dylan (57:20):
Oh, oh, like things he did when he was not P Diddy.
Brad (57:21):
Puff.
Dylan (57:22):
Daddy, oh yeah, puffy, yeah, puffy, smalls Puffy Did
Jennifer Lopez date.
Puff Daddy, for sure, okay.
Brad (57:27):
Probably yeah, but should he really be on trial for things
that he did when he wasn't him?
Dylan (57:34):
I will refer back to the statute.
Oh yes, he gave up his futureselves.
Brad (57:38):
He did refer back to the statue.
Oh yes, he gave up his futureselves, he did.
I think that's a thing.
Yeah, can I give up my futureselves for what?
I don't know?
What are you gonna trade off?
Uh, could just be reallyawesome right now for how long?
Dylan (57:51):
um, I don't know, gotta gamble like what's?
What's enough time for you totry to make as much awesome shit
happen to then know that, afterthat awesome period's over,
life is gonna fall back to whereit was, unless you were.
Try to make as much awesomeshit happen to then know that,
after that awesome period's over, life is going to fall back to
where it was, unless you wereable to build some sort of nest
egg.
What's your limit?
Brad (58:08):
what's your limitless timeline?
No, again, you just go back tothe money.
Um, yeah, but what if?
What if all I built wasmemories?
Dylan (58:18):
Then you're going to be in a world of despair the rest
of your life.
Can you find happiness andsolace in those memories?
Are you going to be grasping atthose memories?
It's about how you react tothem.
A little bit of hardware, alittle bit of software.
Brad (58:31):
I read something the other day that parents are only
living to be memories for theirkids.
Whoa Jesus, I was like wow.
Dylan (58:46):
Yeah, I think my dad probably does that.
That's something He'll be like.
We'll do this.
It'll be cool.
You're like what?
Brad (58:52):
You just got to decide what kind of memories you're
going to be.
Really yeah, and are theyreally?
Dylan (58:57):
you yeah, nobody knows.
Brad (58:59):
That was supposed to be the ending line.
I Really yeah.
And are they really you?
Yeah, no, nobody knows.
Dylan (59:02):
That was supposed to be the ending line.
Brad (59:04):
I'm really sad to see that people.
Yeah, I know You're still here,it's over, go home, go.
This is the Terribly Unoblivious Podcast.
Brad (00:03):
Yep, I said it before and I'll say it again Life moves
pretty fast.
You don't stop and look aroundonce in a while.
You could miss it.
I don't feel like you're hereright now.
Dylan (00:24):
I'm physically here.
Mentally, I'm trying to get inthe game.
Why did you think?
I just took that deep breath.
Obviously, our listeners whoare going to listen to this
probably won't know that wedidn't post this yesterday,
because yesterday was yesterdayand today is today, which means
we can't post in the past.
No, we didn't have a Fridayepisode either.
It's pretty disappointing break.
(00:46):
Yeah, I don't really fall in.
Oh, we do have a guest todayspring break spring annie next
week.
I'm on spring break too, sodon't expect much from here on
out I think the listeners shouldknow that we just have kind of
given up and we're calling itquits.
Yeah, wow, that was a.
(01:08):
Was that an angry yeah?
Brad (01:10):
Was that a happy Annie?
You never want to see me again,or no, don't jump off the roof.
I can't tell.
I don't know either with herman.
I haven't been around herenough to know what her cries
mean.
So are you here?
Dylan (01:27):
I'm getting into it.
Brad (01:28):
I see dylan here, I'm getting better because your
physical body is here.
Does that mean you're here?
Dylan (01:35):
um, I'm self actualizing and three of my other bodies
right now to make sure that I'mdoing three times the work as
every other finance, bro you gotthree other bodies.
Brad (01:43):
I got three other bodies.
Which one is the real, dylan.
This is a really good intro tothis topic.
Dylan (01:49):
It's really good the one making the most money, the one
being the most productive that'sthe most dylan.
Brad (01:55):
Yeah, no, not the most dylan, it's the real.
What's which one is the real?
Dylan (02:01):
dylan, the one that works 24 hours a day.
Brad (02:03):
Okay.
Well, we're going to get into ascenario here where that's
plausible in a sci-fi sort ofway.
So today we're going to do alittle bit of a logic thought
puzzle.
Okay, there are how I sent youthis a while ago.
I think Shannon bought me thisbook.
(02:24):
A long thought puzzle.
Okay, there are how I sent youthis while ago.
I don't know.
I think Shana bought me thisbook a long time ago.
Dylan (02:29):
50 philosophy ideas you really need to know.
I think that's fun.
I think this is fun by BenDupree.
So just thought process here iswell yeah if he has a little
accent on the E, then I thinkyou have to, then I think you
have to, I think you have toraise the voice at the end so he
, he breaks the book down intodifferent parts, so different
(02:52):
types of philosophies orsomething like that.
Brad (02:54):
But they're all just little like four page blips on
different topics and ideas andthings like that and, uh, some
of them run together.
As I'm starting to go throughthe one we're going to cover
today, I started thinking aboutlike 12 different things and a
bunch of them are in this bookalso.
Dylan (03:12):
You're like no yeah, stay focused, it's just this one
sensory overload but it's.
Brad (03:17):
It's very easy to slip into the deep, dark philosophy
hole.
But there I was, just in afirewall hole.
Yeah, that sounds hot.
Dylan (03:27):
We currently don't have internet, get it.
It's a firewall joke, hot takes.
But today is not a hot takesepisode, or is it?
I guess it's the way we raiseand lower our voices.
Brad (03:41):
Alright, so this is from the book 50 Philosophy Ideas.
You Need to philosophy ideas,you need to know, okay, really,
need to know Really.
Dylan (03:48):
Maybe, maybe buy the book from Amazon link in the bio.
Brad (03:53):
Yeah, or, and then just follow it along.
Dylan (03:56):
You could, we don't, we don't make any affiliate money.
If they buy it from theirbookstore, you.
But if they click the link andbuy it, we make like five cents
yeah, but no, we don't like, Idon't like that.
Brad (04:05):
You gotta go support your local bookstores, not bam okay,
or or maybe okay.
Maybe that's the only one yougot yeah, I don't know that's
kind of a throwback, though, toamazon amazon buying books yeah,
well, it's the original use ofamazon, I know.
Dylan (04:24):
And then they uh, they partnered with borders for a
while, which is now um bam,bought the subset of locations
that were the most profitable.
I feel like this is better.
Yeah, they um nerdier.
They tried to grow aggressivelyand they made some missteps
along the way orders did, yeahthey, they really leveraged
(04:44):
themselves out and they didn'tyou know what it was?
What french berets did theywear french?
There's too many french beretsthere like madeline, style.
Brad (04:54):
Yeah, oh okay lattes, berets, anything that ends in
ets, but sounds like a.
Dylan (05:02):
Oh yeah, I know what you're saying, okay, okay all
right.
Brad (05:06):
So today is the ship of theseus never heard of it.
Dylan (05:11):
Is it like when you pull the plug and the ship goes down?
What's that called?
I?
Brad (05:16):
don't know, that's not the ship of theseus.
All right, so my some of youfor how?
Dylan (05:24):
how broad's the beam like ?
Give me some dimensions.
She she a ton.
Brad (05:27):
She she an ocean ton oh, but this is greek ship ology, so
okay, however big that has tobe to carry so we're not talking
.
Dylan (05:39):
Remember, did you see the ?
Uh?
We're not talking like um whatwas the brad pitt greek?
We're not talking the uh moviered sea, um fiasco right now no,
this is not right now.
Oh okay, no, no this is allwood, all right.
I was wondering if pirates weregoing to be involved uh, no
pirates either.
Brad (05:56):
No, I don't think it was a thing.
Okay, I'm bored, okay, so theship of theseus?
All right, right.
From Greek mythology, theseuswas a mythical king and founder
of the city of Athens.
Somehow he traveled to, was itthe country or island of Crete,
(06:17):
you know?
Back in the good old days.
Dylan (06:19):
Oh yeah, that's where concrete was invented, shut up,
okay, was it?
Brad (06:22):
No, god damn it Got me.
Concrete was invented, and heShut up Okay, was it?
No, god damn it Got me Concrete.
He slayed a minotaur.
Know what a minotaur is?
Dylan (06:33):
No, cyclops, not Cyclops.
No, what A minotaur is thehorned beast?
Was it the horse?
The horned beast Is it?
I don't know.
The Horned Beast Is it?
I don't know.
Brad (06:43):
I thought it was a bull.
No, yeah, no, maybe it lookslike a bull.
Okay, corbin was just watchingsomething about man of Tars the
other day.
Dylan (06:52):
Is he watching Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief,
Like that whole series?
Oh no.
Brad (06:57):
It was a cartoon, something at the end of the
world.
It's the head of a bull and thetail.
Dylan (07:06):
Okay, at the end of the world, it's the head of a bull
in the tail, okay, the tail of.
Wait, the head and the tail ofa bull in the body of a man.
Oh, a big man or a little.
Oh, he was in the labyrinth,that's, minotaurs were in the
labyrinth.
Yes and uh, delius and his son,icarus.
Icarus flew too close to thesun?
Brad (07:19):
he sure did.
He got a little sunburned, yeah.
So, uh, mythical King he goesto create.
Apparently the Minotaur had uhcaptured a bunch of kids.
Dylan (07:30):
No, yeah, he was a he was into slave trading or something
.
I think he reincarnated intothe creepy guy and uh, cheat,
cheat, bang bang.
Brad (07:39):
Didn't see that movie.
Dylan (07:48):
Oh movie.
Oh okay, put on the list it's.
I add it.
This is such a weird.
We're analog right now becauseI don't have a laptop in front,
which actually probably makes memore engaged.
Brad (07:53):
It it does.
Okay, I like this.
Dylan (07:54):
Okay, so he goes, slays the minotaur if any of these
guys children if any of you guysare looking to become a sound
engineer, let us know.
We know we need a lookup guyand a sound engineer, so
continue.
Brad (08:06):
Thank you, so he frees these children and they escape
onto a ship heading to Delos.
So, he slays the minotaur,saves all these kids.
Everybody's super happy aboutit, yay.
And somebody says, but did youdie?
And he's like no, of course Ididn't die, I'm the best, but
(08:27):
did you die?
Yeah, he's a king and thepeople are so enamored by his
performance.
Dylan (08:37):
Okay.
Brad (08:39):
That they decide to commemorate his good deed.
So they take the ship each yearon a pilgrimage to Delos to
honor Apollo.
I don't know why they'rehonoring Apollo, but he's a god,
I don't know.
Sun god had something to dowith Athens, yeah.
So the question eventuallybecomes because they take this
pilgrimage every year andbecause the ship is in use for
(09:01):
every year and thiscommemoration lasts for hundreds
of years, philosopherseventually start asking this
question, which is after severalhundred years of maintenance,
if all of the original pieces ofthe wooden ship had been
replaced, is it still the shipof Theseus?
(09:25):
So you have an original shipand through years and years of
use, the wood rots and each year, maybe, you replace one or two
planks and at the end of severalhundred years you have the same
ship.
Okay, all new boards, okay.
(09:48):
So say, there's a thousandplanks on that ship, yeah, and
you replace two in 500 years youget a whole new ship.
Okay.
So is it still the same ship?
This is the puzzle.
Okay, any early comments?
Dylan (10:09):
There's some.
Buddhist uh, there's some uh,buddhist, um, there's some
buddhist, uh crossover here.
There's some, some things therelike I'm just pulling from a
deep well memory right now, butI read a couple buddhism,
buddhist books when I wasyounger and they, they, they use
the analogy of if you, if youreplaced every part of the car,
you know, if you're doing a carrestoration by the end, is it
(10:29):
still the same?
Brad (10:30):
and I would have to, I would have to research further,
but I know there's some yeah,there's lots of variations.
There's variations of this.
They actually the story hestarts out with is a car story
here, a new carburetor yeah, you, yeah, you start replacing all
new heads, new gaskets, right isit.
Is it the car?
Is it still the same car?
(10:51):
Okay, well, maybe, yeah, maybenot.
But uh, almost 2 000 yearslater, a uh another philosopher,
thomas hobbes, kind ofresurrects the story, and
there's all kinds of iterationsof the story.
There's one involves, like agrandpa's axe, you know, so
years of use, and suddenly youreplace the handle and then you
(11:15):
replace the head, and is it thesame axe?
And blah, blah, blah.
That's a little bit lessinvolved because there's only
basically two parts to it Alittle bit of metal, a little
bit of metal a little bit ofwood yes, so there's some other
uh topics including uh.
I think there's a chapter or twoafter this where it's it's.
It's talking about what whatnumber of grains of sand compile
(11:39):
a heap of sand?
Is it a hundred thousand?
And if it's not a hundredthousand, is it 99, the minimum?
Dylan (11:54):
thousand is whatever.
So it becomes very subjectiveyeah, so at some point there's
an easy metric there.
Brad (12:02):
Some people might say well , eventually, if you replace too
many boards, then it's notgoing to be the ship anymore.
You're like okay, but whatpoint is it?
500 or the 600 planks out of athousand to the 800.
I don't know.
So Thomas Hobbes adds a a newelement to this.
Okay, so as the ship rots,you're replacing the boards.
(12:26):
Right, piece of cake.
That's the thought experimentnow do you want to unmute
yourself or not?
You just want to do it that way.
Dylan (12:34):
Oh, was I muted yeah, something, I'm sorry, I like
that okay, that's better.
Brad (12:38):
So now I can still hear myself.
That was the problem.
As they replace the boards,somebody, some little, some
little stinker, is keeping theold, rotten boards and
eventually he's got all theoriginal boards of the ship,
okay, and he puts all thoseboards back together in the
original shape of the ship.
So now you have the originalship that has been replaced with
(13:05):
all new boards and you alsohave all of the old boards that
have been built back intoanother ship.
So which one is the ship ofTheseus?
Dylan (13:21):
The one where the collector will pay the most
amount of money for Ooh.
Brad (13:25):
Okay, so your identity is all monetary based.
Dylan (13:30):
I think free market normally decides these things
for us, okay.
Brad (13:34):
So um, what I did not anticipate was econ coming into
this.
Dylan (13:40):
I so there's this awesome documentary on.
Netflix?
I don't.
It's not a netflix specific one, I think it's just something
they hope they host goodwillhunting.
Uh, I, I don't have that one upright.
Do you know how easy this isfor me?
That's my favorite documentary.
Yeah, it's one of my favoritestoo.
No, um, it was the one of thegreatest art forgery schemes
(14:07):
ever.
Oh, yeah, you talked about thisone time and to the point.
There's this guy that wasfooling everyone I mean the
quote unquote, foremost expertsand it wasn't until for a given
style, for a given artist.
This guy had a wide range.
He could do Pollock, he coulddo um, or he did three.
(14:31):
Really, really well, pollock'sthe one that just jumps to mind
the fastest.
I think he had Picasso's inthere because he had a.
There was a story he did, storyhe did.
He did late 1800s.
The early to early 1950s waskind of his artist um profile.
(14:51):
And the reason he did it is hisfence was this woman who said
she had a very wealthy family.
That was, I don't rememberthere was some nazi influence or
not.
Maybe they.
They left germany to go toargentina and they had this
crazy what's in argentina?
they had this crazy artcollection and then they you
(15:14):
know now through the years, soshe had this whole backstory
that was like very like why.
And the reason was we've neverseen these works before.
They were all originals, butthey passed the sniff test okay,
all the way to the point of itwas only until there was some
crazy experimental science, kindof cracking the code on these
(15:34):
things.
Um, but one of the lawyers atthe end, who rep I don't
remember which side herepresented, but he had a piece
of art from the forgery hangingin his office and he just goes.
What is art?
Is it actually art or is itsomebody's hand touched it?
(15:55):
He goes because, according toeveryone, this painting seven
years ago was worth 15 milliondollars.
And he goes, and by allaccounts, because that person
didn't touch it, even though itlooks, smells, seems the same as
every other one he's ever done.
It's worth like seven dollarsnow and it hangs in my hangs in
my um office.
(16:16):
Yes, so the free market kind ofdecides those things.
I I think which is there's a,there's myriad or there's
there's.
There's a lot of different waysto go about that, but then it's
what the masses will identifyas value and then pay for.
Brad (16:33):
But also there is a sense of the original, the original.
But because he because herecreated something that
somebody else created.
Dylan (16:43):
So if some sneaky guy is stealing all the OG boards, yes,
and he builds it all again,yeah, okay, that's probably the
one that makes it.
I don't know, I mean becausewe're going to get into it.
Okay, let's get into it.
Brad (17:00):
So with the introduction of the new ship, which is out of
all the old parts, now we getinto these two principles.
Okay, so, gradual replacementprinciple so this is what we
started off with is composed ofso many parts and a single part
of that object is replaced,producing object y.
(17:23):
Then objects x and y are thesame object.
So if we're taking two planksout of the ship and putting two
new planks in, we're notrenaming the ship.
Okay, guys, we?
I just listen, I know I filledthis not in on this table right
here this is's Fred 2.
This is a new table.
Dylan (17:43):
It's Fred 2.
Now I made a new table.
It's not Fred 1 anymore, it'sFred 2.
What's Fred 2?
Brad (17:48):
I don't know what's Fred 1?
.
Dylan (17:49):
Fred died, so we can't talk about Fred George still
living, though.
Brad (17:53):
What.
Dylan (17:54):
Weasley twins, harry Potter In real life?
No, in the books.
Brad (17:59):
Oh, they died one of them really yeah it's been a while
battle of hogwarts man yeah,there are some casualties.
So that's gradual replacementprinciple.
Now there's also the same partsprinciple.
So if object x and object yshare all and only the same
(18:21):
exact parts, arranged in exactlythe same way, then objects x
and y are the same object.
So the ship when it firststarted out as all of the
original parts and then, athousand years later, all of the
original parts.
Right, yeah, those two are thesame thing, are?
they really I don't know.
(18:41):
That's it's possible Is.
Is that more the same ship thanthan the old one?
Dylan (18:48):
Uh, depends on the, uh, the wood, it does the density
Did they?
Did they get old?
They get old trees.
Or did they get new trees withthe, with the shitty life rings
on them?
Brad (18:59):
oh, they're so shitty life rings, guys I don't even want
to talk about wood I can't do it.
Dylan (19:05):
Oh my grandpa, my grandpa , just go down the rabbit hole.
Do you ever demo an old house?
And you just look at the two byfours and you just see yeah,
you know how people go intohouses and steal copper.
Brad (19:17):
Yeah, yeah, I steal all the old two by fours.
Dylan (19:19):
Yeah, yeah, I steal all the old 2x4s.
You're not using thisload-bearing wall.
You don't need this.
Brad (19:25):
This house is demoed.
There's no studs here, though.
Dylan (19:30):
What happened?
The stud thief came again inthe night Ripped them all out.
It's just a little sag, that'sall it is Left, all this copper,
though Just a little sag.
Brad (19:39):
You'll never even know.
Okay, so this leads us to thisother idea of logic.
So it's transitivity,transitivity, transitivity.
Dylan (19:49):
Transitivity.
Brad (19:50):
Yes, is that the?
Dylan (19:51):
transitive property in math.
Brad (19:53):
I think that's exactly what it is.
Dylan (19:56):
So A equals B, B equals C , A equals C.
Brad (19:59):
Okay, right, yeah, so A is exactly the same as B and B is
exactly the same as C.
Dylan (20:06):
Unless it's I.
Brad (20:07):
Therefore A equals C.
I can't do I right now.
I know we're just fucking withyou.
Okay, we're going to get theresomeday.
Dylan (20:13):
Continue.
We're not doing I.
A will never equal I.
It's okay.
Brad (20:17):
No, because it's imaginary , right?
Okay, so let's go back to theship.
The original ship is A, got itAll the new parts, that's ship B
, and the reconstructed ship outof the old parts that we kept
(20:39):
is C Right, Got it so.
Dylan (20:43):
Wait a minute, do it again, do it again.
Brad (20:46):
The very original ship is A.
Dylan (20:47):
Okay, og ship.
Brad (20:51):
A yes, okay, the ship that now has all the new parts, all
new parts.
B Okay, and then thereconstructed ship out of the
old parts.
Reconstruction is?
Dylan (21:04):
c?
Are we talking about nails,glue, all of it to be identical
okay like, but are you?
You're getting into theminutiae.
Are you recycling the nailsfrom a to make b?
Are you recycling nails from ato make c?
Do?
Brad (21:19):
you think they did glue I?
Dylan (21:21):
think they used glue.
Little honey, little wheat Go along way Glue.
When did glue get invented?
Egyptian times, was it?
It's BC.
Brad (21:29):
I saw a meme the other day that said can you imagine the
guy that invented glue?
And it's two guys at a bar andthe guy's like you know I bet if
we melt horses down it'd getreally sticky and we could stick
stuff together with it and hisfriend goes is everything okay
at home?
It's kind of crazy.
Dylan (21:50):
Wait a minute.
Elmer's is a cow.
Is it a cow?
What's the logo of Elmer's?
I was going to be really upsetif it was a horse.
Is it a bull?
Is Elmer's a bull?
I feel like it might be a bull.
That'd is it a bowl?
Is elmer's?
Brad (22:07):
a bowl.
I feel like it might be a bowl.
Dylan (22:08):
That'd be really on the nose, wouldn't it?
Or on the hook there's glue,okay, so so the transit power
symbol, now transitivityproperties okay would say that a
equals b, so that's the gradualreplacement principle got.
Brad (22:18):
So the original ship to the all new parts ship.
That's gradual replacement.
But a also equals C, which isthe same parts principle.
So all the same parts from theoriginal ship end up in the same
, in the C ship as old parts butthe same pieces.
Okay, but then if we used thattransitivity property of
(22:43):
identity, we would also have tosay that B equals C, and that
cannot be, because the ship withall the new parts cannot be the
same thing as the ship with allof the old parts.
Okay, see where we're goinghere.
We're running into someproblems yeah, okay, so we're
(23:06):
not really running into problemsthat's.
Dylan (23:07):
That's kind of a problem, okay a doesn't equal b and b
doesn't equal c.
What I'm just telling you a isnot going to equal b, a is not
going to equal b.
No, how are you going to?
How are you going to get thesame dimension, lumber exact
every time to the micron?
Brad (23:24):
You do understand a thought experiment.
Dylan (23:25):
Right, I do understand the thought experiment, but that
is the same thing though.
Like, okay, remove a thoughtfrom me and give it to you, how
are you going to have the exactsame feelings and thoughts and
emotions around it?
We're going there.
Yeah, exactly, we're goingthere.
That's what I know, but that'swhat.
Brad (23:38):
I'm saying we're going there.
Yeah, exactly, we're goingthere.
That's what I know.
But that's what I'm sayingwe're getting there.
Dylan (23:42):
It's super easy.
This is what happens whenpeople fucking overgeneralize.
Sorry, I've had a lot of peopleovergeneralize this week, so
I'm going to get hostile herereal fast.
Don't do that, okay.
Brad (23:52):
Not towards you, just the ether.
Okay, we're going to run intosome problems.
So either one of thoseprinciples is wrong, so either
that gradual replacementprinciple is wrong.
It says okay, yes, there is athreshold, that eventually, when
something changes so much itceases to be the original thing,
(24:13):
okay, okay, or the same partsprinciple is not correct.
So all of those parts in thisscenario, you take them out of
that scenario and you put themelsewhere.
It doesn't mean that's the samething or it's the entire
transitivity principle ofidentity.
That's wrong.
So one of those three thingshas to be wrong, but which one
(24:37):
is it?
So we're going to play thisgame.
We don't really know.
Okay, this is part of thepuzzle, all right.
So we're going to play thisgame.
We don't really know.
Okay, this is part of thepuzzle, all right, we're going.
So now we go back to Hobbs.
So he's rejecting.
Do you have?
Dylan (24:47):
a synopsis on Hobbs.
Do you have a quick history?
I think he was a tiger.
Brad (24:54):
He has some stuff named after him Thomas Mm-hmm.
Dylan (24:57):
The train?
Brad (24:58):
No, not the train uh, what did he do?
He did like the leviathan orsomething like that was one of
his main works.
Okay, he was around in like the1650s, if you want to look him
up.
Dylan (25:15):
I think I probably studied him about 22 years ago.
Brad (25:17):
okay, so he rejects the gradual replacement principle in
regards to material things,material bodies.
So if some part of the firstmaterial has been removed or
another part has been added,that ship will be another being
or another entity.
Right, social contract.
Oh yeah, that's right.
Dylan (25:38):
Yeah, Leviathan the corporate.
Brad (25:42):
What's up, right yeah, leviathan the corporate.
Dylan (25:44):
What's up the civet?
Yeah, yeah.
Brad (25:46):
However, when regarding ever-changing items.
So let's take people, okay,rivers, nations, right.
So we say it's the MississippiRiver, right?
Well, what makes it the riverthe Mississippi?
Yeah, geographical location,okay.
So what happens?
It?
The river the mississippi?
Yeah, geographical location,okay.
So what happens when the riverchanges?
Dylan (26:06):
rivers change paths over a course of time yeah, yeah
still same river still the sameriver, okay okay, it changes
water, right, water change rate.
Brad (26:16):
So it's not the same water , yeah, still same river.
It's not the same moleculesthey moved on.
Oh, so it's not the same water,yeah, still the same river.
Dylan (26:21):
It's not the same molecules.
They moved on, oh so it's thesame molecules.
Okay.
Brad (26:26):
Okay.
Dylan (26:27):
Okay.
Brad (26:28):
Whatever.
So he in that sense, rejectsthe same parts principle.
So is sameness of body allowingfor parts to be switched out
over time.
So is this a criteria forpersonal identity?
So think of like what we switchout, like we have different
(26:52):
thoughts, different feelings.
Your cells die and regenerate,right.
So at what point are you adifferent person?
Are you always the same person?
Dylan (27:07):
so we're conflating identity with an identity.
For the river, for instance, isgeographic coordinates with the
actual makeup compositionally,because at any given point the
chemical makeup of themississippi is going to be
different.
Brad (27:23):
Yeah, so yeah, so all those tractors in it.
Dylan (27:25):
Yeah, so you really kind of have two beings.
You have the identity portionand that is broken down into how
you want to classify thoseidentifications.
You know it could be name, itcould be traits, even though
(27:45):
those traits might not those I'dtrick.
Identifying traits might nothold true to the person inside.
You could be suicidal, but thenyou go through some great
therapy and you're not suicidalanymore.
But people are like, oh, that'sa suicide guy.
And you're like, well, that wasa suicide guy.
And you're like, well, that wasthe suicide guy, but that's not
really an identifying trait forhim anymore, because those
(28:06):
thoughts, patterns, emotionshave changed.
Brad (28:08):
Okay, so, before we get to the next section, because you
went exactly where I went withthat, so I kind of stopped at
that point, okay, and it waslike just a little FYI for the
listener right now I dylan hasno notes.
Dylan (28:23):
We have no notes.
Brad has great notes.
Actually, I have no notes that.
I have minimal notes, but morethan you, and we did not talk
about this episode at all beforewe hit the record button, no.
Brad (28:34):
So the first thing that my mind went to was incarceration.
Oh so you committed a crime,and you committed a crime based
on a set of circumstances and athought pattern and whatever
else right.
So at what point say in thefuture where you have totally
(28:55):
changed your mind about what youshould be doing with your life
and how you should act andthings like that Are you a
different person?
So now are you incarcerated asa different person for something
that you did not commit?
But there's a continuity there,because your body did commit it
(29:15):
, but your mind is a differentthing.
Dylan (29:18):
Yeah, so that probably goes to what's the best way to
say this when the state needs aquota.
I mean prisons.
Prisons make a decent amount ofmoney, um?
No, the law doesn't.
This is the problem is, thisisn't explicitly laid out, and
if it is, lawyers, you can comeback at us in the comments, uh,
(29:41):
and tell us that we're wrong.
When you commit a crime,there's this punishment that
says you are going to bepunished for this.
What it doesn't say is you andevery iteration of you, you're
giving up future self-use, umability to be free.
So understand that you're notjust sacrificing you in the
(30:03):
moments, freedoms later, you'resacrificing every iteration of
you and the and I think that'swhere parole comes in a little
bit which is parole if you,parole was the ability to say,
hey, they have beenrehabilitated, because what the
correct term for prison is?
(30:23):
rehabilitation, which is whetherwhich is we can, that's a whole
other episode, but at the endof the day the whole, the whole
point of the justice system isrehabilitate so that you can go
function in the norm is thewhole point of the justice
system it's the intention, it'snot the there's difference, but
but there's an interesting pointin there as to when.
Brad (30:46):
When do they decide that you are a different person also?
So that does.
I mean that does kind of staywith the topic there.
So from the parole boards my.
Dylan (30:58):
You know what?
My bunk mate.
He took all my wood man.
He's the one trying to do newbank robbery, not me.
You're like what he took whatdo you mean?
Brad (31:06):
what?
Dylan (31:06):
do you mean he took wood, like?
I know, like he's just, he justtook my parts and built a new
ship over there.
That was old me.
Brad (31:15):
Now I'm the copper bandit, uh, but yeah, I mean, they
literally are doing this thoughtexperiment as to are you now a
different person.
Has enough changed in you thatyou are now a different person?
Dylan (31:30):
Have you seen Primal Fear ?
Yeah, with Ed Norton.
Yeah, wow, I did.
I said, yes, I don't have awinning.
I don't have a winning Good.
Brad (31:41):
Okay.
Dylan (31:41):
Good, okay, good, I think Primal Fears for anyone who
hasn't seen it.
I'm not going to ruin it foryou because it's an awesome
awesome.
Also, it's 30 years old.
It's an awesome movie, but it'sRichard Gere, Edward Norman.
But if anybody ever took theusual suspects away from me,
like if anybody ever ruined thatfor me, I've also seen that one
(32:03):
Proud of you.
Brad (32:05):
But how good was it?
Not as good as the Key andPeele sketch.
Okay, yeah, but on Meow Street.
Dylan (32:21):
I've completely lost my train of thought.
Brad (32:23):
Oh no um hang in there, detective it's a lot like that.
Dylan (32:28):
Yeah, it's now.
So what's happened?
Is you, in your previousversion of yourself, sacrificed
the future versions of you goingto parole?
Okay, how does somebody decide?
And that is the problem, causeif you watch primal fear, you're
like, well, some people arereally good and they can say the
(32:53):
right things, check the rightboxes, make other people feel
the right emotions actors,academy awards, and yeah, okay,
they get to go free.
But somebody who is actuallychanged just doesn't know how to
convey that to a panel.
Yeah, that's the problem, andso it's purely subjective and so
(33:14):
that needs to go along with it.
At the get go of your sentence,it's yeah, you fuck up.
There's a.
You know parole is anopportunity, but also understand
that it's a game and if youdon't play it right, you're
probably not going to get there,even if you are a good person.
Yeah, that's a whole otherthing, but we've gone down some
(33:35):
good side roads here.
Brad (33:36):
Not really they all.
They're all kind of involved inthis.
Dylan (33:40):
I know.
Brad (33:40):
Well, I just those things I haven't thought about for a
while.
So we're kind of talking about.
So the ship is the physicalpart, right?
So when we're talking aboutidentity, I don't.
Dylan (33:51):
Is it because your point like it's the ship because it's
named something, the name has nophysical bearing?
No so it's just anidentification, it's just
choosing how you identify.
Brad (34:04):
Yes, but also in that sense the ship, if the ship did
something.
Dylan (34:08):
Ship broadened the beam.
It's like, okay yeah.
Brad (34:11):
But the ship did something .
That's why they were committed.
The ship traveled and savedpeople, and it was part of a
thing an event, an idea.
That happened Okay, and sothere's also a but portion of
that.
Dylan (34:26):
Yes, but that's attached to the name.
Brad (34:30):
If you go, yeah, but a name is an idea.
Dylan (34:32):
Exactly so.
What I'm saying is that wouldmeans nothing.
Brad (34:37):
Okay, so the idea means something.
It's what you get people torally around.
Dylan (34:43):
That's what means something.
Brad (34:44):
Okay, so we want to go with ideas.
It's so we're going going.
We're going more mental.
Let's go on with the brain.
We're going with the ether,going with the brain okay all
right.
So there's some other fun waysthat we can do about do this.
Keep dissecting, let's go ifsomeday it's possible to do a
(35:04):
brain transplant.
Oh, yeah our intuition?
Are we talking about like faceoff?
Dylan (35:11):
but better okay yeah, nick cage, I like that.
Brad (35:15):
You've seen that one too you're doing really well on this
episode a bunch you're doingreally well on this episode I've
seen.
I've seen bad movies a wholebunch of times okay, yeah, so
you.
Dylan (35:25):
So you're a B-list guy.
Brad (35:28):
Sometimes Okay yeah, all right.
So our intuition would be Notjudgmental.
Dylan (35:35):
Yeah, I'm curious, I'm curious that if I put my brain
into your body right, so You'dbe really depressed.
You didn't have this your wholelife.
Brad (35:52):
You also would be.
Oh, oh, you wouldn't be,because you'd be my brain.
Yeah, I'd be really upset.
You don't have a brain anymore,so it were more likely to say
that your body received a newbrain, right?
Dylan (36:04):
no, okay, my your brain received a new body.
Brad (36:08):
Yes, okay, it's kind of what, but our brain received a
new body, not that the bodyreceived a new show on netflix
that did this um black mirror.
Dylan (36:17):
No, no it was it was actually.
I watched the first season andthen the second season.
I didn't get into um, itdoesn't matter, but essentially
they learned how to.
It was kind of like sciencemeets religion in a way, where
they they learned how to we'llcall it your soul.
(36:37):
They captured your soul insideof a microchip, okay, and then a
little bit of like your brainmemories, all these things, but
okay, and then they would justupload that program into a hard
drive or whatever and they'd belike, okay, well, you committed
a crime.
300 years from now, when yoursentence is up, you can come
back, which the whole punishment?
(36:58):
There was everyone around youyou love and died, and it's
going to be really hard for youto reacclimate when you come in
back.
So, or they had these.
Brad (37:06):
I don't like this.
Yeah, what was that?
It's kind of like the what wasthe Tom Cruise one.
Dylan (37:11):
So there's this.
The whole premise of this isthere's this old kind of like
super soldier assassin guy thatthey want to bring back to try
to figure out a murder.
Brad (37:25):
Is this Demolition man?
Dylan (37:26):
It's kind of like demolition man that's flicks
brain swap show.
I don't know all right.
Brad (37:34):
So altered carbon?
Oh, I did not see that one.
Yeah, altered carbon, and thenin like season two he gets
another body, like.
Dylan (37:40):
So the main character has like one body and then he has a
different body, so it's adifferent actor.
Brad (37:45):
Yeah, so are.
Are we saying it's the brainwhich we're still talking, a
physical thing, right?
So now I put my brain in yourbody.
Okay, are you me now, becauseyou have my brain probably
probably, but it's not.
It's the controller, but it'sprobably not from just the meat
(38:07):
of the brain, right?
Dylan (38:09):
okay in the sense it's the things inside the meat.
Brad (38:13):
So the the meat is the hardware okay the.
The software is what we'reinterested in.
Dylan (38:19):
Okay, what's the software in the brain?
The thoughts and consciousnessand memories, and all of that,
so all the cells that align inspecific areas.
Brad (38:29):
Oh, do you gonna tell me the magic of how the brain works
?
No well, I'm open.
Dylan (38:34):
I don't have enough time right now to to explain the
origin of consciousness to meit's really hard to know
everything in this world so.
Brad (38:46):
So we kind of get into this thing where it's like, okay
, well, in that sense, whatmakes us up is maybe, maybe not
the hardware at all, right, sowe're looking again, we're
looking more towardsself-identity.
That's what this is leadinginto.
Okay, so the the thoughtexperiment is not fun when we're
(39:07):
talking about ships and carsevery average size guy right now
is saying thank you really oh,do they like the car thing now?
Dylan (39:17):
it's probably talking about.
It's a small dick joke whatit's not about the hardware.
It's not about the hardware.
Brad (39:23):
It's not about the hardware, it's about the
software.
I don't know what that means.
Yeah, so that leads us to.
If it's the software and it'sthe memories and the
consciousness and the behaviorsand the cellular activity and
(39:46):
electrical nuances between allthe connectors and conductors
and synapses, there you go.
That was the word you werelooking for.
Can't something else do that?
Yeah, there's a lot of peoplethat do that way better than you
, every day With everything, nota brain.
Dylan (40:03):
What you're doing right now.
Brad (40:06):
With a computer okay, so cpu central processing unit yes,
okay so this is when I wastalking to you off air about how
some of these chapters leadinto another one.
I think the very first one iscalled brain in a vat and
essentially it's abby, abby,normal.
It is a lot more like the, thematrix, where imagine that you
(40:33):
could take your brain out andhook it up to all kinds of
sensors and processors.
I thought you're going to talkabout the trinity sex scene.
Dylan (40:43):
They didn't know okay that didn't happen.
Brad (40:45):
Okay, did I get the edited version I don't know ps.
I still have to fill out formswhen I go see my therapist.
I even saw a different one andthey still made me feel damn, it
is that.
It's that bad.
I don't know, I haven't figuredit out?
I haven't figured it out, I'mbeginning to think it's a me
policy.
Dylan (41:04):
I think it is a you policy.
Do they take your shoelacesaway?
Brad (41:08):
no, I always wear cowboy boots.
Um, so it can.
If your brain is taken out ofyour body and hooked up to all
of the, the nerve endings andall of these kind of things,
would you be able to tell youknow, if you were not part of
the world?
Or there's a, there's acomputer that's just putting
(41:29):
inputs into those nerve endingsand, and, uh, synthesizing
things like that all right.
So so the material body, we'realways changing.
We're growing or not growing,or cells dying, regenerating,
losing tissue, losing body parts, losing 18 inches of your
intestines, you know, just basic, normal, normal, whatever.
(41:53):
So, um, it's not necessarilythe, the, the material part.
And also now we get to thesoftware and it's like, well,
that's uh, that's alsoquestionable.
You know, that's also changingconstantly, that's also changing
constantly and our thoughts arechanging, our ideas are
changing.
Hopefully, hopefully, some ofyour ideas are changing,
hopefully your ideas don't staythe same all the time.
Dylan (42:15):
You think you should establish your values at 18 and
just fucking hold on to them.
Just go for it.
Brad (42:22):
This is me.
Yeah, just like riding thetoboggan down the dam Hoover.
Yeah, making a big one.
Dylan (42:30):
Yeah, hold on tight I think one of my favorite damn
references is gonna be uh,goldeneye okay james bond.
Yeah, that's his.
That's.
That's pierce bronson's intro.
He blew up the dam.
Well, remember when he wasrunning down the dam?
And then he shoots, he jumpsoff the bungee jump because he's
got the guards chasing.
Okay, what was the tagline?
Which one?
Brad (42:47):
I don't know, whatever he said something surely, really.
Dylan (42:50):
No, that's interesting yeah, that's your introduction
to one of the greatest bondsever okay, so material, mental,
okay now, you don't havehardware without software.
Brad (43:04):
You don't have software without hardware okay, so we
have both of them, but both ofthem are ever changing.
They're ever changing and theyplay.
Dylan (43:11):
Yeah, they play roles.
Okay, there's compatibilityissues?
Brad (43:14):
Yes, so we still run into this, this principle, idea of
like.
Dylan (43:19):
I think philosophers are overcomplicating this to make
their lives easier, which is tomake their lives easier.
Yeah, please make their liveseasier, which is to make their
lives easier yeah, please tellme more the more confusing we
make everything, the more ourjobs, didn't you just?
Brad (43:30):
send me that meme the other day.
Which one?
Uh, people who read philosophyyeah and it's people in berets
and they're sipping coffee andsmoking cigarettes and no,
that's what like people thinkthey are.
Dylan (43:40):
And then it's.
And then it says actualphilosophers.
Brad (43:42):
It's people just ripping heaters, looking super dirty in
life yeah, he looked like he washaving a mental breakdown over
a table, yeah, that one was good.
I think that sums up prettygood.
So later in yeah, I don't havetime frame on this.
It's john lock.
Okay, you can look that up.
It's much later he comes at it.
(44:04):
So this is at it.
So this is probably Lock withan E, right?
Yeah?
Yeah, this is 20th, early 20thcentury mid 20th century.
He comes at it from apsychological perspective.
Okay, so saying that basically,our psychological continuity is
(44:24):
what identifies us as us, it'swhy we keep being ourselves, so
it's the sense that we are.
It's kind of that.
This is really early introphilosophy, where how do you
know you're the same person whenyou wake up as you were when
(44:45):
you went to sleep?
Yeah, was in.
He was an og enlightenment guyso, uh, it's, it's this thing
where there's, there's all ofthese overlapping elements of,
uh you know, part of yourhistory and enduring memories
and all of these things thatkind of coagulate into making
(45:09):
you you right, and so it's thestring that is ever attached to
each other through series ofevents and that's your memories
and feelings and recollectionsand and all of these things.
Now we're going gonna get to aproblem with the psychological
part.
(45:30):
Enter star trek shatner or umchris, it doesn't matter okay
but we're gonna get into thefuture, not back to the future
what?
Dylan (45:45):
no, I just want to make sure you don't have Parkinson's.
Thank you.
Brad (45:48):
All right, so imagine we're in a Star Trek style
transport system.
Dylan (45:53):
Okay.
Brad (45:54):
So this records your physical composition down to the
last atom and then transfers itsomewhere else.
So teleportation, right?
So we're going gonna leave ourstudio here and we're gonna end
up on the moon, right so?
Dylan (46:14):
like?
Are we talking like wallace andgromit go to the moon for
cheese?
No, okay, no, nope what episodewas that.
Brad (46:22):
I don't know what that is.
Dylan (46:23):
You don't know Wallace and Gromit?
Nope, that hurts man.
Brad (46:26):
Sounds like an old people show.
Dylan (46:28):
Okay, all right.
Brad (46:30):
So you arrive on the moon at the precise moment that your
body is completely gone here,right?
Mm-hmm, a grand day out, that'swhat it was.
So, if you adhere to thepsychological continuity thesis,
there's an uninterrupted streamof memory, et cetera, flowing
from the individual here to theone on the moon, right.
(46:54):
So you are still you, accordingto the psychological principle
that Locke is going towardsright, and so your identity is
clearly the same.
Right, and so your identity isclearly the same.
But suppose the transporterdidn't work properly, and now
(47:16):
you jumbled the bits.
It copied you from here andsent you there, but forgot to
annihilate you here.
So now you exist here and youexist there.
So which one is the real one?
Which one is the true one?
Dylan (47:33):
You know how we were talking about that.
You overcomplicate things.
Brad (47:36):
No, no, I'm really good looking.
Dylan (47:39):
Yeah, that one.
Brad (47:40):
Funny all the time.
Dylan (47:42):
It was you make a decision in your early self and
that makes consequences for allyour future selves.
I say we just kill bothversions.
Brad (47:53):
Okay, so logically we have an issue here, because from the
psychological perspective,they're both you right.
Yeah, but can there be two ofyou?
Dylan (48:09):
exactly, exactly, uh, yeah, yeah sure, I mean
scientifically.
All you have to do is replicateevery cell in the body exactly
the same way, okay, okay, nowlet's go.
Brad (48:23):
But that's not.
But that's not the principle.
Dylan (48:25):
So so brad.
This is what's gonna happen.
There's only gonna exist oneversion of you for one micro
second yes okay, okay.
So in that fleeting millisecond, okay, you are the exact same,
but your environments aredifferent.
(48:45):
So the moment you've replicatedand we'll say time stands still
for that millisecond and youhave no external outside
influences.
You are the same person, but ifyou're on the moon and you're
on earth, those are twodifferent wild environments.
Your external inputs into yourinternals are going to create
(49:10):
two different beings immediately.
You're so smart.
Brad (49:13):
I'm not smart.
You're so smart why?
Dylan (49:16):
Because that's where we're going.
It's environmental man.
Brad (49:20):
So you are temporarily, in that instant that the one is
transferred and exist in atotally different place.
Yeah, you are instantaneouslydifferent to the as one and
after that instant, you are nowtwo, two separate beings.
(49:41):
Yep, because of that, yes, yes,external influences.
So which one is the real one?
This is the problem.
No, it's not.
Yes, it is no, it's not.
Dylan (49:55):
How is it not so?
Brad (49:57):
but your concept the laser , laser beam so is it the one
that, because we we transferredyou it's?
Dylan (50:03):
you replicate?
There's a replication systemthere you're.
It's no different than we dovirtual machines you create a
copy and then one's living,one's being replicated and then
transfer over as a final final.
But do you see, logically, howthis is a problem?
Yeah, so you'd have tounderstand the underlying
technology of the beam.
You're going to talk about thelaser beam.
(50:24):
I'm telling you, yes, you haveto, because that is that is
fundamentally.
Are you doing a copy and deleteor are you doing so like if
that's a copy?
The idea is the copy and delete.
So the, the idea of the copyand delete is that means the
(50:47):
person on the moon is not you,the.
The original person is the onethat didn't get deleted.
Brad (50:49):
You don't wipe it out here .
That didn't get deleted.
That's the one here, but butthat one doesn't exist anymore.
No, you said that it it fuckedup.
Okay, so if it fucks up, sothat's the original one.
Yeah, so that's the originalone, even though, yeah,
everything else is exactly thesame but that's the same concept
of cloning.
Dylan (51:05):
It's like, yeah, cool, that's you, but it's not.
You, it's not, but it's not thesame.
Brad (51:10):
Yeah, you copy and delete it, so the original one's gone
because you have an inorganicmatter making organic matter but
what you're saying is becausethis one is here, this is the
one we copied, even thoughthey're both exactly the same
and they both psychologicallyhave the exact same continuation
(51:30):
.
Because this is the one wecopied, this is the original one
, and what that leads us tobelieve is because this one is
here and we copied it.
It's has something to do withthe material being of it.
Dylan (51:45):
Now, if you can transport , but they're the original which
leads us back to the originalproblem yeah, which is
underlying technology no, that'snot the original.
Brad (51:56):
The planks it's the wood planks, yeah, and that's why I
original problem the planks it'sthe wood planks, yeah, and
that's why I said it's thesecond ship.
That's all new.
Dylan (52:03):
No.
Brad (52:04):
Sorry, third ship, c ship.
Oh, the old stuff.
Yeah, oh, it's the old stuff.
Dylan (52:11):
The best part about the second one, b.
Yeah, a is the original, b isthe all new parts, c is the
reconstructed.
A is the original, b is the allnew parts, c is the
reconstructed.
Problem with B is that what'sour boy's name?
Brad (52:25):
Theseus, theseus.
He never touched the planks.
No, he didn't.
Oh, so this is the art thing.
Dylan (52:32):
It's the art, thing, okay .
All right so it's like thatplank touched the plank that
maybe touched him one time, solike transitively, but then
there's going to be a pointwhere it's going to be so
swathed out Transcendentalplankification.
There's going to be a pointwhere all the planks have been
changed so many times thatthere's no transitive property
of him originally being thereanymore.
Possibly, not possibly forrealsies.
Brad (52:55):
So so material.
So it's gotta be material.
What so material?
Dylan (53:00):
So it's got to be material.
What do you mean?
It's not got to be material,Okay?
Brad (53:06):
We're saying you see the puzzle part of this right?
Dylan (53:07):
No, it's not the puzzle part You're saying worth is by a
touch Like we're getting backdown to like.
Brad (53:12):
I'm not saying worth.
We're talking about identity,not worth.
Dylan (53:14):
Worth is the easiest identification of what the
market says is true.
Oh, easiest identification ofwhat the market says is true.
Brad (53:23):
Oh, it is.
So what's the worth of my brain, what's the worth of my memory?
What's the worth?
Dylan (53:26):
of my personality for, uh , not many people are going to
pay for you in the aftermarketokay, I disagree, I'm just I
disagree okay I feel like Iwould be an upgrade.
I'm not saying you wouldn't be,I'm just saying there are
people maybe a little bit aheadof you.
Dude philosophers used to lookdumb.
They don't.
They're not yeah.
Brad (53:48):
I like those crazy German ones.
They look more fun, kant yeah.
Wait is he French?
No, so to end this a little bit, uh, david hume another.
He's a scottish philosopher.
(54:10):
Oh, yeah 1700s.
He draws attention to theelusiveness of the self.
However hard you look in onyourself, you can only ever
detect individual thoughts,memories and experiences.
The self is hard you look in onyourself, you can only ever
detect individual thoughts,memories and experiences.
The self is no more than thepoint of view that makes sense
of our thought and experiences.
Dylan (54:29):
I was also reading somewhere, though it's like
trying to capture jello in yourhands yeah, that's why you
capture with your, your mouth.
I can't leave.
Brad (54:39):
Slip out.
Before we started, I did seesomething else and I thought it
was in here, but it has a lotmore to do with and I think you
touched on this.
So it's that instantaneoustemporal thing.
So the problem with Liketempura shrimp, no, oh, okay,
(55:00):
chicken.
Dylan (55:00):
Oh Sorry, okay Chicken, oh Sorry, shellfish allergy.
Brad (55:07):
That in these things that we're looking at, we're sort of
looking at them in a 3D sort ofsense instead of a 4D sense,
where time is Just not checkersanother major factor in it and
like underlying technology no,okay, I don't think so I'm gonna
(55:30):
go to bed with a nightmareabout that word.
I just I don't know, so what,so what.
Dylan (55:43):
So that, for those of you that weren't picking up on it,
we're talking about what makesyou you.
Is it the memories from longago?
Is it the now memories?
Is it the memories all around?
What is it?
Is this even worth thinkingabout?
Maybe it's your new prostheticarm.
I don't know, Could be.
I mean, we talked about this inan earlier episode, like I've
(56:07):
got some somebody else's bloodin me somebody else has your
blood in them double time now.
Brad (56:09):
So just get done with that one.
Can that?
Uh, yeah, I feel bad for thatguy.
What makes?
Dylan (56:11):
you, you.
If he picks up any of my quirks, he's gonna be in for a life of
pain I feel like there'sdefinitely a black mirror
episode about this Aliens.
I don't know if there is anAliens one oh, honestly.
I don't know.
I think Black Mirror's allabout like shit.
Brad (56:26):
That could actually happen in the present.
It's all this kind of stuff.
Dylan (56:29):
That's why I like it so much.
It is fun.
Brad (56:32):
It's also very scary.
Dylan (56:34):
Why?
Why is it scary?
Why is this scary?
Oh, this ship isn't that scary.
Brad (56:39):
This isn't that scary.
No, black Mirror is scary, butsome of this, some of this, I
think, is scary.
Yeah, I think it's just in thesense of how do you know you're
you, how?
Dylan (56:52):
do I know I'm me?
Yeah, because I wake up everymorning hating the world.
The exact same way.
Brad (56:59):
That's funny.
I wake up every morning feelinglike P Diddy.
Dylan (57:04):
Nailed it, the one on trial right now.
What Is he?
No, I think he's underinvestigation for some.
Murder.
Brad (57:11):
No, not this time.
Dylan (57:12):
Oh, pee, pee, I think some underage stuff oh.
Brad (57:16):
Like things he did when he was not P Diddy, puff Daddy.
Dylan (57:20):
Oh, oh, like things he did when he was not P Diddy.
Brad (57:21):
Puff.
Dylan (57:22):
Daddy, oh yeah, puffy, yeah, puffy, smalls Puffy Did
Jennifer Lopez date.
Puff Daddy, for sure, okay.
Brad (57:27):
Probably yeah, but should he really be on trial for things
that he did when he wasn't him?
Dylan (57:34):
I will refer back to the statute.
Oh yes, he gave up his futureselves.
Brad (57:38):
He did refer back to the statue.
Oh yes, he gave up his futureselves, he did.
I think that's a thing.
Yeah, can I give up my futureselves for what?
I don't know?
What are you gonna trade off?
Uh, could just be reallyawesome right now for how long?
Dylan (57:51):
um, I don't know, gotta gamble like what's?
What's enough time for you totry to make as much awesome shit
happen to then know that, afterthat awesome period's over,
life is gonna fall back to whereit was, unless you were.
Try to make as much awesomeshit happen to then know that,
after that awesome period's over, life is going to fall back to
where it was, unless you wereable to build some sort of nest
egg.
What's your limit?
Brad (58:08):
what's your limitless timeline?
No, again, you just go back tothe money.
Um, yeah, but what if?
What if all I built wasmemories?
Dylan (58:18):
Then you're going to be in a world of despair the rest
of your life.
Can you find happiness andsolace in those memories?
Are you going to be grasping atthose memories?
It's about how you react tothem.
A little bit of hardware, alittle bit of software.
Brad (58:31):
I read something the other day that parents are only
living to be memories for theirkids.
Whoa Jesus, I was like wow.
Dylan (58:46):
Yeah, I think my dad probably does that.
That's something He'll be like.
We'll do this.
It'll be cool.
You're like what?
Brad (58:52):
You just got to decide what kind of memories you're
going to be.
Really yeah, and are theyreally?
Dylan (58:57):
you yeah, nobody knows.
Brad (58:59):
That was supposed to be the ending line.
I Really yeah.
And are they really you?
Yeah, no, nobody knows.
Dylan (59:02):
That was supposed to be the ending line.
Brad (59:04):
I'm really sad to see that people.
Yeah, I know You're still here,it's over, go home, go.
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