January 3, 2025 • 54 mins
Dr. Patrice Dunn joins us to unravel the intricate dynamics of code switching, sharing her journey from growing up in predominantly white environments to becoming a counselor and assistant professor. Through personal anecdotes and professional insights, Dr. Dunn sheds light on how code switching impacts mental health and why it’s crucial for counselors to recognize this in their sessions. Listeners will learn strategies for managing code switching, as Dr. Dunn reframes this often stressful necessity as a potential superpower, offering guidance on how to harness it effectively while maintaining one's cultural authenticity.
We explore the unconscious nature of code switching across race, class, and professional landscapes, drawing on Ruby Payne’s perspectives on class differences. The conversation delves into the observation skills of marginalized communities as they navigate social cues and societal expectations. Personal stories highlight the pressures and biases faced in various settings, emphasizing the emotional labor involved in staying true to one’s culture while adapting to dominant norms. This episode provides a thoughtful examination of identity development, stereotype threats, and the subtle ways individuals alter their behavior in response to external pressures.
Education and counseling take center stage as we discuss the importance of cultural sensitivity and creating environments where diverse voices are valued. Dr. Dunn shares insights into the challenges of code switching in educational settings, highlighting its impact on students’ participation and overall well-being. From classroom dynamics to food traditions and societal stereotypes, the episode underscores the necessity of ongoing learning and discourse in fostering multicultural understanding. By sharing experiences and reflections, we aim to inspire listeners to engage with these themes and consider the broader implications of cultural identity in their own lives.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome, Dr Dunn.
Tell us a little bit about youand the program you're going to
give us tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Okay, I am Dr Patrice Dunn.
I'm in the Dallas area and Ihave a private practice that
I've been doing almost 20 yearsI don't really count, but it's
getting close to that.
I am an assistant professor atMidwestern State University,
enjoying that loving workingwith future counselors.
(00:31):
I've been a counselorsupervisor for almost as many
years as I've been in privatepractice, and so this topic for
me.
Last year about this time I hadattended a couple of conferences
ACA, aces a couple conferencesand this topic kept coming up of
code switching and I left therewith a feeling of, oh, some
(00:56):
people are missing some things.
They were talking about it.
I agreed with everything theywere saying, but I thought that
there was another perspective toit.
I was raised in predominantlywhite environments and so how I
view code switching had a littledifferent perspective on how
(01:16):
some of the presenters I waswatching had.
So I thought, you know, theremight be some people who know
what it is and don't have anyreason to know what it is, and
some people are angry becausethey feel they're put in
situations where they're forcedto code switch for lots of
different reasons, and we'lltalk about some of that tonight.
(01:37):
And so I just thought let's justget a little more clarity.
It challenged me as an educatorto kind of dig a little deeper,
seeing what other people weresaying about it.
I've talked to several peoplejust in preparation for this
that work in different areas andjust seeing how they're
processing that, how they'rehandling it, eventually you know
(02:01):
what is the cost to our mentalhealth when you're doing that.
I always tell people everythingcosts you something and so to
be put in those situationswhether they're voluntary or not
, I believe, cost us something.
So we'll look at that and thenwhat we can do as counselors
whether we feel like we codeswitch or not, how we can help
(02:25):
improve in that area.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Awesome, thank you.
So before I, if you need toshare screen, you can do that.
I've made you co-host a littlehousekeeping.
If you've attended these before, you know the drill.
Please leave your camera on ifyou would like the CE.
If you don't need the CE, don'tworry about it.
You can eat your dinner withyour camera on, we don't care.
(02:49):
But if you'll look over in thechat, you'll see that we have
posted an attendance link.
You must click that link andfill out the Google form.
It's super quick and it's very,very helpful if the name you
are using in this presentationmatches that name.
So take a moment and just clickthe link and that way you have
(03:10):
it when the meeting ends and youwon't need to worry about it.
I think that's it All.
Right, dr Dunn, over to you,okay.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Let me just say real quick thank you for my fellow
faculty members for joining intoday.
I appreciate love you guys.
I'm glad you're here, I'm gladeverybody is here, and I will
leave plenty of time forquestions and discussion.
That's how I learn is bytalking about what we're talking
about, and I did get a coupleof questions that I will address
(03:43):
from Kate before if I don'tcover it in what we're talking
about.
So just a couple of things thatI want to go through very
quickly.
I'm going to talk about my why.
Why am I talking about this?
We'll find a definition of codeswitching.
I'm going to give you lots ofexamples Again.
That's kind of how I learned,like show me what that looks
like.
I'm going to talk about codeswitching as it relates to
(04:05):
counselors and clients.
Hold on, I lost my button.
Talk about why do people codeswitch, the negative impacts of
that on their mental health,strategies and solutions.
How do we move forward withthat?
I'll talk a little bit abouthow I use it as my superpower.
How do we move forward withthat?
(04:26):
I'll talk a little bit abouthow I use it as my superpower
and then we'll talk about theimplications of what counselors
need to know about codeswitching.
Hopefully I'll get through allof that, ok.
So I'm always curious like what, what do people know?
And just for the sake of time Iwon't go through that and use
(04:51):
the chat and all of that, butI'm always curious like was this
a brand new topic?
Did you hear Kate talk aboutthis?
And you're like I don't evenknow what code switching is.
What is that?
And so I think you know in thisgroup we could be at lots of
different places in terms ofwhat we already know about code
switching, but I'll share alittle bit about kind of my why
and kind of my journey throughthis.
Again, I grew up inpredominantly white environments
, went all through higher ed inwhite environments, and so I
(05:16):
think code switching was a thingfor me.
However, I didn't know that'swhat that was.
It just had always been what Ihad always done.
My mother was very instrumentalin making sure that she
inserted us in places where weweren't the only person of color
in the room.
We went and we traveled onvacations.
(05:37):
We always went to historicallyblack colleges and universities,
so we had a good mixture ofthat, but in terms of how we
presented ourselves, I think itled more to the dominant group
than not, and so I put thesepictures up here because they're
both me.
Obviously, I have braids in oneand I don't in the other.
(06:00):
In the other, and one of thethings this was recent, but I
used to think when I was doinglike photo shoots for my webpage
the book cover that I had, youknow, I didn't want to show up
in braids.
I mean, that was like aconscious thought that I had and
(06:22):
it kind of irritated me.
I'm like why am I even have tohave this conversation with
myself?
Why am I battling with myself?
I didn't want people to see mywebpage and think that I only
counsel black people, and so Iwould always take my braids out,
straighten my hair, take thepictures and then, if I wanted
to put the braids back in, Iwould.
(06:43):
But it was a thing that I wasconstantly thinking about all
the time what would I wear?
How would I show up?
I didn't want to be too Black,because that might scare some
other people off, and I happenedto be somebody who was much
more comfortable with differentgroups of people, just because
(07:04):
of how I grew up.
I put that Black Votes Mattershirt there because I had a
recent experience.
Over the summer I went to NewOrleans to the Essence Festival
and they're giving out T-shirtslike right and left.
So everybody's like, oh yay,something free.
And I always needed anothershirt to clean the house in or
whatever.
But I put this shirt on oneSaturday and ended up going to
(07:27):
the Kroger and I had this shirton.
Didn't even dawn on me.
I live in a predominantly whitearea of North Dallas and soon
as I got out the car, thisAfrican-American lady runs up to
me.
She's like, oh my gosh, I loveyour shirt.
And I was like, oh my gosh, Iactually left the house in this
shirt.
What was I thinking?
(07:47):
And I'm like, oh thanks, that'sso nice Because I want to
present myself one way to her.
But to the other people, I'mgoing into the store and I'm
like, should I turn the shirtinside out?
I didn't know what to do Again,frustrated at myself that I
even had to have thatconversation.
And so I definitely think it'sa thing.
I definitely think, if it's notmanaged well and identified
(08:11):
that it can start to wear onyour mental health and Lord
knows, I don't need any helpwith that.
So a couple of definitions.
I took these from peoplesmarter than me.
So don't you worry.
Code switching occurs whenpeople from historically
marginalized groups alter howthey present or express
themselves to gain acceptancefrom others in the dominant
(08:33):
group.
Y'all know who the dominantgroup is right.
Okay, just make sure everybodywill make sure we're using the
same definitions of things.
But you know, in this countrythat's the standard.
The dominant group sets thestandard for what beauty is,
what acceptable is, what tone ofvoice makes sense in different
environments.
Code switching may involveadjusting one appearance, style
(08:57):
of speech, behavior andexpressions to optimize the
comfort of others in exchangefor fair treatment, advancement
and employment opportunities.
The code switching phenomena isvisible in various settings,
particularly in professional andeducational environments, where
people of color navigate spacesin which they are racially or
ethnically or gender minority.
(09:22):
You know, it just made me think,and kind of reading this again,
I do think that there is some.
You know.
They talk about your employmentopportunities.
I think about genders.
I mean generations, how somegenerations show up for a job
interview Now.
Our parents and grandparentswould just be rolling over Like
what are you doing?
Why are you dressing like mygrandma?
(09:42):
But do you have pantyhose on?
Are you wearing a slip?
You know those.
You know it was that standardblack suit, white shirt.
You know that's how youpresented yourself.
These kids show up and whoknows, there's no standard now
kind of how they do that.
But again, you know that's thegenerations are kind of a
(10:04):
different thing.
But these are two definitionsfor me that are kind of the
whole big picture of that.
I'm curious to know I guesssomebody could put it in the
chat because I really just wantto know and I figured I have a
captive audience here so I couldask I'm curious if, based on,
(10:45):
these'all got to watch this clipbecause it's a quick one.
But I want you just to kind oftell me what you see in this.
You guys should recognize him.
He's been around.
Do you see that?
I'll play it again because itwas quick but it's good.
I played again because it wasquick but it's good.
(11:07):
You notice the difference inhow he greets people.
I don't know if you know any ofthe work of Ruby Payne, but she
does a lot of work with classes,more so than race and ethnicity
, but she talks about thatmiddle class, the upper class,
and then people in poverty Oneof the things that she says
about people in poverty andthere's a lot of people of color
(11:30):
that might fall in that, butthere's also people in the
dominant group.
But she talks about howobservant we are.
We watch how people interactwith each other, right.
And so if I'm a, if I'm aparent and I'm going to meet the
teacher night, I'm going tolook at how this white teacher
greets all of the parents.
You know.
So she's given hugs and youknow warm handshakes, and then
(11:53):
she comes up to me and there'sno physical contact, there's no
anything.
I'm developing a really quickopinion of that.
And so me, being anAfrican-American parent, going
into that environment, am Ichanging how I interact with
that white teacher versus when Igo to the third period class?
Am I responding differently toa teacher of color?
(12:15):
Maybe my tone, maybe the way Igreet them is different, but
that handshake was definitelyjust telling to me.
So, again, as I was kind ofputting this presentation
together, I began to think aboutthe counselor versus the client
.
I've had people I office out ofmy home now and so I have people
(12:37):
that call and want to make anappointment.
They'll want to come in and Iwill open my front door and the
shock that I see on people'sface.
Sometimes I'm not sure if theythink I'm the help.
I'm not sure you know they'relike am I here to see her?
Who is she?
They don't really know whatkind of name Patrice is, so
(12:57):
they're not really sure.
My mom told me she named meafter a French white man, so I
don't know what they're thinkingwhen they hear my name.
But so then there's just thisoh my gosh, so then I'm you know
.
So then I.
Then I'm thinking,unconsciously, thinking if you
can do that, how am I going towin this person over?
(13:18):
How am I going to quicklydevelop rapport?
Because obviously the color ofmy skin has their mouth on the
floor right, and so I have tovery quickly get their
confidence, get them to sit down.
It doesn't take long.
I've been doing it too long tonot be good at doing it, but you
can definitely see that.
So sometimes the code switchingcould be from the counselor
(13:39):
based on the clientele thatthey're seeing.
As a school counselor.
Sometimes it depends on thedemographics of the school that
I might be in.
I worked in a district where Iwas a district-wide counselor,
so I got to see the whole gamut.
But so sometimes it's on us theownership of that code
switching as the counselor, tosee what do I need to modify or
(14:01):
dial back or tone down as acounselor?
Do I speak differently to myclients of color?
Do I speak differently to Asianclients?
And then, on the flip side ofthat, do I have clients that
come to me?
Again, my question would bewould a white client come to me
(14:21):
and feel the need to code switchor not?
I'm thinking not, but that'sjust me and I'm not able to
speak on that with any level ofexperience.
But other clients that mightcome in and think a certain way,
and there's lots of things thatput people in that position to
(14:43):
feel like that.
There could be a client thatcomes in that looks like me, but
they see these three diplomason my wall and they might feel
like, okay, now they have to sitdifferently or they have to
present themselves a certain way.
We know that people come intocounseling all the time thinking
that there's a right answer tothings and that we're looking
for that right answer as opposedto you know I work really hard
(15:05):
in my office just to get peopleto come in and feel like you're
just sitting in somebody'sliving room having a
conversation.
I don't want it to be thatstoic, sterile kind of feel, but
so I, just, from the lensthrough which you're looking at
this, I want you to think aboutit yourself as the counselor and
then how that affects yourclients that are coming in there
(15:28):
.
One of the questions that I gotwas what are some physical,
verbal and other social cuespeople look for before they code
switch?
I said, wow, that's a goodquestion.
I don't know.
Here's what my thought was.
I just read it a little bit ago.
I haven't had much processingtime.
(15:49):
I don't think code switching isalways conscious environments
with different people.
Thanksgiving at my house is notthe same Patrice that you see
at work every day.
Right, I might be louder.
I laugh really loud anyway.
(16:09):
We're just loud people.
My whole family is like thatand so everything we do is I
used to tell my students when Itaught school I don't know how
to whisper Like, everything I dois loud.
If I'm correcting you, it'sgoing to be loud, don't be
offended.
It's going to be loud, don't beoffended, it's going to be loud
.
If I'm loving on you, it'sgoing to be loud.
Right, my class is not thatclass that walks down the
(16:30):
hallway very quiet.
You know we try to put bubblesin our mouth and all those
things.
It just doesn't work that way.
But I do believe that codeswitching can be individualistic
.
Like everybody, it might showup differently for everybody.
I don't think I could teach aclass on how to identify code
switching.
(16:50):
I think it's one of those toolsthat, as a therapist, you put on
your belt and if you're pushingup against some resistant with
your clients, if you're noticingthat they're uncomfortable,
then I tell my students all thetime take the risk, ask them.
I'm getting the sense thatyou're really uncomfortable.
What is that about?
(17:11):
Are you uncomfortable?
Are you used to being in thesesituations?
I look around sometimes.
I've been in some environmentswhere I look up and all of a
sudden a white person will bethe only white person in the
room.
Well, they're probably feelinga little uncomfortable and I can
just imagine that I've been inthat situation.
(17:31):
So we talk about transparency alot, you know, and how to use
that and be skillful in usingthat in a therapeutic situation.
That would be one of thosetimes.
But I don't know that there'sany signs or clues.
I think the younger they are,they would be less informed
about that they're codeswitching.
(17:52):
I don't think they think thatthat's what they're doing.
They're doing it.
That is just how they survive.
That's how they fit in.
We talk about people with thatsense of belonging and community
.
They're doing it to fit.
This is how everybody elsetalks.
I did that one time I told mydad.
I came home I said but dad,lisa's mom said he was like, do
(18:13):
you need a new address?
I said no, sir, I'm fine, I'mgood, I'm sorry, I don't know
what I was thinking, but youknow, to him it's like that's
not how we do things and youdon't have to do it the way
(18:34):
everybody else does things.
Okay, let me keep moving here.
Okay, so this is JanelleHazelwood.
She said in my experience, if Ispoke too loudly, I was labeled
ghetto or uncouth.
If I spoke too much with myhands, using slang, or didn't
enunciate every syllable, I'd beconsidered unreliable,
uneducated or not trustworthy.
If I used analogies that weresmart but rooted in urban or
Black culture, I'd sometimes belaughed at like I was the
(18:56):
company comedian.
I thought that was powerful,very well said and I believe
many people would be able torelate to that.
We talk all the time ascounselors about our biases and
what do we do with that?
How do we check our biases atthe door?
(19:16):
I think this is one of thosethings.
I've gone into schools.
There'll be a group ofAfrican-American girls.
They're like miss, they're allcalling us loud.
And is that another?
I'm like well, are you beingloud?
They're like well, yeah, I'mlike well, that's why they're
doing it.
So you don't have to kind ofbuy into that stereotype.
(19:38):
But shouldn't it just be okaythat we communicate differently,
that we might use our hands?
In some cultures it might bedisrespectful to use your hands.
I don't know about you guys,but these new things, these
bells and whistles on thesecomputers, sometimes, because I
talk with my hands, all of asudden a thumbs up will go up on
(20:00):
my screen.
Yeah, I'm like wait, how'd thathappen?
Like I don't know how to makeit happen.
I think I know how to do, likethe hearts and all the little
hearts that start to go up.
But when you're talking, I getballoons that'll go up, confetti
that will go up because I talkwith my hands.
So it's always a reminder to me.
When I videotape like a podcastor something like that, I'm
(20:23):
kind of like sitting on my handsbecause, you know, I'll always
have a hand across my face.
So there's a book.
You know books are alwaysbetter than the movies.
But it's also a movie called theHate U Give and it's about a
young girl.
She's a high schooler thatlives in the inner city but
attends school in apredominantly white area.
(20:45):
Her father thought that wasbest for her, so he sends her
out there, but she's tornbetween these two very different
cultures and not reallyhandling it well.
She has a friend that's shot bya police officer, so she's
dealing with that.
How to find her voice?
Her white friends are likewhat's wrong with you?
Why are you all upset?
(21:05):
So it's just a really goodexample of that.
I work in these affluent schooldistricts where there's lots of
kids of lots of colors andparents always tell them don't
apologize for wanting your kidsto be in a certain school
district, but understand thatthe struggle is real.
(21:26):
And at this age you know, inthe middle of adolescence
they're trying to identify whothey are.
So when we talk about theiridentity development, they're
struggling because of that.
I was going to show you a clipfrom that.
It was just going to be thetrailer of the movie.
You can Google that Um, but forthe sake of time I don't want
(21:48):
to do that and I'm not sure allthis technology, what's going on
.
So I thought it would beimportant that we kind of
discuss um, you know, I wasthinking about like who, who
code switch?
So if, if, white people don'tcode switch, I don't know, I
haven't seen the feedback yet,but you know, I think there's
times where women might feellike they need to code switch.
(22:09):
I was watching something.
Oh, I went and presented to aschool that's all construction,
plumbing, all that kind of stuff, and they have a lot of mental
illness.
Apparently, they have very highrates of suicide in
construction, mental illnessApparently, they have very high
rates of suicide in construction.
And so they hired me on to comeout there and talk to them.
And there's one woman there andI'm like, ooh wonder what that
(22:31):
experience is like for her.
Does she show up on the job andshe's very feminine or does she
feel like she has to toughen upand talk like the guys and act
like the guys?
So I think, women I'm speakingfrom the perspective of an
African-American person.
When I taught in Dallas, myHispanic students struggled with
(22:52):
that.
They were actually when I wasin Dallas years ago.
They would almost get introuble for speaking Spanish at
recess lunch.
I'm like, let them talk.
Well, you know, that's whenthey're comfortable, you know.
But a lot of them, theirparents would be embarrassed to
come.
They all try to get rid ofaccents if they could.
They didn't want to have thataccent.
(23:14):
I had a couple of students fromIndia that would bring their
lunch but boy, when they wouldopen their lunch the smells
would be strong.
I mean I don't cook that well,but I mean I would assume it's
curry and some other things andthose smells linger, right.
So kids are always like, eh,what's that smell?
(23:35):
I have a client of mine gotkicked out of school recently.
It's not funny, I'm sorry.
I laughed, but he got kickedout of school because he was
eating a burrito and somebodywas making fun of like how that
smelled.
And they're like oh, thatstinks so bad I can't believe
you're eating that.
So he punched the kid in theface multiple times, went to
alternative school.
He said I missed homecomingbecause of a burrito.
(23:58):
I said, yeah, you did.
So.
You know, doesn't make muchsense.
But there you go and thenclothes.
You know, kids, adolescents,are trying to find their
identity.
Parents complain all the timelike, oh my gosh, why are they
dressing so goth?
They're so dark, they're notdoing you know, or you know it's
.
There's a lot of research thatshows that African-American
(24:19):
males do well in predominantlywhite schools, do better in
terms of that sense of community, because people think they're
cool, they're hip, they haveswag, they you know, they have
rhythm and beat and all of thesekinds of things, and so they
assimilate a little better thanthe girls, who they're thought
of as loud and aggressive andthose kinds of things.
(24:41):
But a lot of it is.
You start seeing the white kidswanting to dress like some of
the African-American males do,and so everybody's trying to
figure out who they are.
I work with a lot of adultsthat are still trying to figure
out who they are, and so let'sgo through this list the
purposes Now this is very.
This list the purposes Now thisis very academic.
(25:08):
I'll just say that word for howthey describe this in the
literature Social integrationAll the research talks about.
Retention in college and highered is all about that sense of
community and you're finding aplace that you can belong.
Identity expression We'vetalked about that, whether or
not the identity is in how youwear your hair, your jewelry
(25:29):
Some people do that throughtattoos.
The communication efficiencywhy would they say that?
Like that, I'm just like that'sa whole lot of words, but just
in how you communicate.
Somebody was saying, oh, one ofmy students was doing something
on a presentation and wastalking about.
You know cultures that don'tlook in your eyes.
(25:51):
You know like it'sdisrespectful to look somebody
dead in their face.
In this country we're like, ohmy gosh, you're being so rude.
You want to look at me when Italk to you kind of thing.
And sometimes it's just ourword choice that makes us less
efficient.
Social norms and expectationsthe cultural adaptations this
(26:12):
country has always deemedthemselves the melting pot,
right?
Well, what if some people don'twant to really melt together?
What if we don't like whatwe're blending with Right?
But there is this, thisunspoken goal of assimilation
that we're all going to holdhands and sing Kumbaya.
(26:38):
Year two in higher ed.
You definitely see power,dynamics and where people fit in
with all of that, theexpression of solidarity or
inclusion.
I believe you know I'm not thebrightest apple in the bunch,
but I believe everybody wants tobelong somewhere.
(26:59):
I just do, and I'm not talkingabout middle schoolers and mean
girl stuff.
I'm not just talking about highschools and cliques.
I'm talking about adults.
I think adults desire to fit insomewhere.
They want to have their people,their tribe, their group of
people, whether or not it's atwork, it's at home, it's at
(27:19):
church, wherever they are, theywant to fit in and feel like
they're a part of something, andthat just doesn't always happen
.
Personal preference Some peoplein my experience just feel more
comfortable being around whitepeople.
I don't look like them, but Ifeel more comfortable because
(27:41):
I've learned how to operate andmove in circles with them.
So sometimes it's just apreference and so I have to
speak a certain way so I canstay a part of that group that
I've made myself a member of.
I'm going to say this about thepurposes.
I think it's very different foreverybody.
(28:03):
I think about multiracialpeople, children.
All of my grandchildren aremultiracial and they find
themselves sometimes not whiteenough to be considered white,
not Black enough to be Black,considered white, not Black
(28:27):
enough to be Black.
In the African-American culturethere's lots of things that
separate us, whether it's thetone of our skin, if it's the
hair, the texture of our hairAll of my grandbabies look like
they're Hispanic Black or white,they just look Hispanic.
But what is that struggle likefor an adolescent that's trying
to develop and figure that out?
Um, you know, do I act likethis or do I act like that?
(28:49):
Um, my one granddaughter she's17 now, but she?
Um used to say she was going tovisit her Brown family, um, and
so we were the Brown family andthen she had her white family
and she said the Brown familydefinitely ate better, um, so
she enjoyed coming over here toget some good food.
So I didn't argue with her, Iagreed.
So negative impacts that's kindof what we're, you know, hoping
(29:12):
to avoid.
We want to bring somerecognition to this issue.
And then how can we avoid this?
So that identity strain, tryingto figure out who you are, just
that feeling of self-worth,like I belong, I am worthy.
I think you know a lot of myresearch is with women, but I
(29:32):
definitely believe everybodywants to be seen and wants to be
heard.
Right now I don't know if thathas something to do with how
they end up dressing or talkingor wearing their hair.
Sometimes I do think people areattention seekers, but in
groups of people, not only do wewant to find our group, we want
to be seen and we want to beheard.
(29:53):
You want to be valued, you wantpeople to hear what you're
saying and then hang somethingon that Like wow, that was good.
And there's places I've been inthem where I might say
something and you just hearcrickets and the research says
then somebody else comes alongfrom the dominant group, might
(30:15):
say something very similar tothat, and then we build on that
and then that's a great idea,let's go ahead.
Let's run with that idea.
Good job, bob.
And that's a great idea.
Let's go ahead.
Let's run with that idea.
Good job, bob, you know.
And so how do we, how do wehave a voice without code
switching?
Can we find?
(30:37):
Are we able to be seen andheard without having to code
switch?
Emotional labor this is one thatI learned about during my
dissertation.
Labor that just reminds me ofhaving babies.
Like that's hard work, right,could be worth it in the long
run.
The end result could be good,but it's some work and it's
emotional.
When we talk about wellbeing,we talk about your physical
(31:00):
health, we talk about yourmental health, your emotional
health.
This is emotional labor.
This is work to the point ofburnout your stress.
What are they?
Commercials talk about Cortisolall the time.
That increased stress and thenall the negative, gosh awful
things that can happen to you ifyou don't moderate that
(31:20):
Authenticity concerns, like justshowing up, being authentically
.
You just I want to be who I am.
I don't want to have to dumbthat down, tone that down,
because I'm going to be around acertain group of people so I
can't talk about certain topicsor I can't speak a certain
language.
I think we're in that periodnow because of politics certain
(31:46):
language.
I think we're in that periodnow because of politics, right?
So if I go in a room of people,people might assume that, oh,
she's going to vote for, youknow, harrison Walls, or you
know, or they're going to assumeI'm going to walk into a room,
assume somebody else is going tovote for Trump, and then so it
brings all this unnecessarystress where, if the world would
go according to Patrice, we'dall be able to enter that
discourse and just agree todisagree, have important
(32:08):
conversations.
I don't think we grow unless wedo.
If we sit in a room full ofpeople that all think the same
thing, nobody's growing.
That sounds really boring to meOkay.
And then finally, the stereotypethreat.
There's lots of them.
I talked about biases brieflyalready, but all of those
stereotypes that we have aboutdifferent sex and groups of
(32:29):
people that you know I got toldthose girls you don't have to
live up to those stereotypes,you don't have to be a fighter
because that's what they say.
You know people probably thinkI can fight.
I've never been in a fight.
We'd be scared to fight.
So that's just not part of theculture that I grew up in.
(32:49):
Now I can talk, I can fight youwith my words.
I can probably out talk mostpeople.
I used to tell my husband allthe time if we get into a fight
you're going to lose because Ican out talk you.
He probably would still agreewith that.
(33:23):
So just some things to considerIf you were to have a client,
maybe as an adult that's workingin the world.
I had a client yesterday.
An African-American man been onWall Street his whole life.
He's in a whole big high-risebuilding right now and is the
only African-American person inthe building Right, and so he's
talked about that stress andthat strain and how he's had to
adapt and dial things back.
You know he definitely agrees.
He dresses differently at workthan he does at home.
You know, some of these youngkids want to show up in Nike
dunks and he's like I wouldnever wear that to work with a
(33:43):
suit.
I don't care what's going tohappen, you know, and so it does
affect how people interact withyou, but you could have
somebody easily coming to youroffice that needs help and that
is just beat down and worn out,and so you might not have
experienced it, but you need tokeep this on your tool belt, as
(34:04):
this might be a place we need toexamine.
Are they just worn down andstressed out because of the
emotional labor of showing up?
That very first picture I putup there was that young lady
that had that mask on.
So much like people do withdepression, they feel like they
got to go to school every day,put that mask on and smile and
be.
You know all things to allthese people, and then they're
(34:26):
exhausted when they come home.
You know, young peopletypically have meltdowns when
they come home and it doesn't govery well.
So I've decided you know I'malways the optimist how can I
take this thing that I didn'task for but is obviously a part
of how I move in thisprofessional life of mine, so
(34:51):
how can I use it as a superpower?
So I think it is an enhancedadaptability.
I feel like I'm very fluid.
If I was in a big room withlots of different groups of
people, I could probably findmyself in each group having some
conversation, maybe not totallyconnecting, but I could
(35:13):
definitely show up and be a partof.
I wouldn't feel, you know, leftout or like I would have to
leave.
I've just learned.
So you know I joke sometimes.
It's probably not funny.
You'll tell me if it's funny,but I always say I speak white
people.
I can hear white people.
You know I've done it longenough and I do.
(35:34):
I know people that look like me.
They're like what are theytalking about?
Like, what are they saying?
I'm like oh, I get it.
Hold on, let me interpret itfor you.
It's like this six, you know,sense that I have, or this.
Maybe I'm bilingual, maybethat's what it is.
And I can hear white peopleSocial integration, being able
to fit in, finding places.
You're seeing more of that.
(35:54):
You know, historically, blackcolleges used to be all black.
Now there's lots of whitepeople there for lots of
different reasons, money beingone of them because you know,
higher ed is a business and soyou know.
But my sister went to Stanford.
There were no Blackfraternities and sororities,
(36:17):
right.
So if she was going to join oneshe would have to join a white
one.
I don't even think at that time, because she's even older than
me, that she could have had anopportunity to join a Hispanic
sorority or something like that.
I don't even know if that was athing then.
And then the cultural identityaffirmation.
I've learned, um, I'm 60 yearsold so I've learned a lot.
(36:46):
Um, but it wasn't until I waslate forties before I really
started being okay with who Iwas.
Um, I was in these whiteenvironments.
I always knew I was different.
I was uncomfortable.
About that We'll talk anothertime.
I have a little sister who isvery, very light skin, very
(37:08):
light skin.
She went to the same highschool I did.
Her experience was verydifferent from mine.
She was able to get on thecheerleading squad.
We didn't have Blackcheerleaders.
She was on the cheerleadingsquad.
She ended up being homecomingqueen.
So the way she was able toassimilate and fit into that we
talk all the time now about.
You know just our differentexperiences with the same group
(37:32):
of people.
We're four years apart, but itwasn't generations apart.
So I've just decided that I'mgoing to take these things and
I'm going to use it and I'mgoing to hopefully be able to
help both sets.
What I run into is people thatlook like me, that are kind of
angry, like they're mad.
You know, and I'm like you know, I'm not code switching for
(37:53):
anybody.
I'm going to do what I wantcome in, have, okay.
Well, like this gentleman fromWall Street told me last night,
he said I'm always trying toeducate these young
African-American men, but theydon't listen and what I tell
them is you're not going to havea job for very long.
And that's exactly whathappened, you know.
So, whether it's right or wrong, it is just how we are and
where we are sometimes.
(38:14):
And so I decided if it's goingto be a thing that I have to
encounter and deal with, thenI'm going to use it to my
advantage, and I think I do thatrelatively well.
Maybe my co-workers might saysomething different, I don't
know.
So a couple of strategies andsolutions.
And because these are bigumbrellas and you have to I love
you too, wendy I have to.
(38:36):
You know, it's individual,where you are, what your
environment is, how much poweryour voice has to implement the
change.
I work at my home and so I canchange that environment however
I want to.
But cultivating supportivenetworks Facebook is a champion
(38:58):
in that kind of stuff becausethey have more groups for
everything.
Just counselors I mean there isthe clinicians of color,
there's the DFW counselors,there's the counselors and
supervisors.
I mean you can go all the wayacross the board and ask
anything that you want, and thatwhole entire group is so
supportive, because everybodyhas been not always about code
(39:20):
switching, but everybody needsto ask a question at some point.
Kate can tell you that, becauseshe'll always chime in and give
you some good advice.
Promoting inclusive practicesAgain, that's, if your voice has
some power somewhere that youcan kind of do that.
I'm always talking to schoolsabout creating welcoming
environments.
If kids don't see themselvesaround the building we're not
(39:45):
really good at that yet.
We're getting better but itkind of feels like a checkbox we
used to talk about.
Well, kids never see posters orbulletin boards with people
that look like them.
So then all of a sudden, you'llbe in a school full of white
people and boom, there's oneBlack person right there.
Oh, there goes one Hispanic,okay.
Well, so now they check the box.
(40:06):
Well, look, we got people thatlook different.
So it needs to be more genuine,more just, kind of organic.
And we're not there yet.
We got work to do Self-care andwell-being so we can prevent
some of that emotional labor.
Think about people likesometimes just on your staff.
(40:26):
If you work with a group ofpeople and you just get mean,
grumpy people all the time,sometimes they're just
emotionally spent, like I am sosick and tired of coming to
school every day and having toput on this face and letting you
you know that's a whole notherpresentation talking about
microaggressions and thoseinsults and all those kinds of
(40:47):
things, but it's like slaps inthe face to us, punches in the
gut.
You know you might as well hitus on the head with a bat and
you're like what, what did I say?
You know, and so we're like Idon't want to have to keep
teaching you that what you saywas offensive.
You know, like when are yougoing to go read a book or do a
podcast or something to educateyourself?
It gets to be exhausting forthe people that operate in that
(41:11):
level of offense and thenadvocating for change.
Look, if you can't advocate forchange, stop complaining.
You know nothing worse thansitting around a group of people
.
All they do is want to complainabout you know.
Woe is me.
Life's not fair and sometimesthey might be part of the
problem.
Don't tell them.
I said that, but none of y'allon here.
(41:32):
I'm just talking about thoseother people.
So what do counselors need toknow?
I'm finishing up y'all cominghome.
They should be mindful of howcode switching may impact
students, classroomparticipation, academic
performance, peer interactionsand just their overall
well-being.
One of my associates we talkabout this all the time she's in
a very affluent private school,but I'm working with a couple
(41:56):
of students from that campusvery smart, so their academics
doesn't really have anything todo with that part.
But what they tell me is likebut I can't trust my friends.
I have some good friends thatdon't look like me, but they
don't really trust them.
They're not really sure theysee the news, they hear these
(42:18):
things, so they're not quitesure how to figure that out and
as adolescents they haven'tquite developed all those skills
yet to be able to do that.
Counselors should create asupportive environment where
students feel comfortableexpressing their cultural
identities and authenticityAuthentically.
I'm sorry, oh, I was having athought.
(42:38):
So what I tell my students allthe time is, when you don't know
, when in doubt, ask, ask, whatcan I do to make you feel more
comfortable?
I had a student who, well, hewas sixth grade maybe and was
gay, and he was acting out on itlike in the most like lip gloss
(43:02):
, glittery lip gloss, doublebedazzle.
He wanted to bedazzleeverybody's jeans on the
football team.
So we were trying to dial himback just because the school
wasn't ready for it.
We weren't ready then, but Iactually went to one of our band
directors who was gay and askedhim, when you were in sixth
grade, what there goes that.
(43:23):
See, I did it.
What could, what could yourschool counselor have done for
you in sixth grade to to helpyou, because I don't want to
stop you from being who you needto be, but I also don't want
you to get beat up in the lockerroom because you've offended
one of these football players.
You just want to bedazzle theirjeans, right, and so I don't
(43:44):
have any.
I never present myself as if Iknow everything, so I'm very
comfortable asking questions,but I don't know.
Tell me more about this.
You guys, if you don't knowthis, if you ever go to an
adolescent and act like youdon't know something and you
need them to teach you something, you're going to get so many
points with them.
Oh, let me tell you how to dothis.
That's what I need to do withall these things that pop up on
(44:06):
my computer.
I said, when I get anadolescent in my office, I'm
going to have them show me howdo I make these thumbs up and
hearts and all this stuff going.
They'll show me and they'regoing to think they're super
smart.
Counselors should engage inongoing professional development
to enhance their knowledge andskills related to code switching
, multicultural counseling andworking with diverse student
populations.
(44:26):
I know my students are tired ofhearing me talk about
multicultural counseling, butK-Crips, they were supposed to
talk about it in every class andI absolutely.
It's kind of like ethics andsupervision, like every
situation.
We can talk about somethingethical and we can talk about
multicultural counseling.
I had to tell one of mystudents today multicultural is
(44:46):
not just race and ethnicity.
You know, that's all that hewas focused on.
I'm like it's bigger than that.
You have to incorporate all ofthose things.
You know what if they'rehearing impaired or vision
impaired or whatever thosethings are, and so we don't, as
a profession, have any excuse tonot go to professional
(45:08):
development.
I don't have any tolerance forpeople who are counselors and
complain about that.
I'm like you chose this field,so you're supposed to want to be
around other people that areexperiencing like things to you.
I love going to the nationalconferences because you get to
see how they're handling stuffacross the country, not just in
Texas.
I mean, texas is big and we seesome diversity with that, but
(45:32):
you're supposed to enjoy wantingto go out and do that and get
better, because that puts you ina better position to serve the
clientele.
Counselors need to approach codeswitching with cultural
sensitivity and respect forstudents' linguistic and
cultural backgrounds.
Just words matter.
Pick your words carefully,think about it.
You know, if you don't know tocall somebody a Latinx or
(45:57):
Hispanic or Mexican, they'lltell you.
Just ask, they'll tell youwhich one they're most
comfortable with.
Or they'll tell you, just ask,they'll tell you which one
they're most comfortable with.
So I'll finish with this quote.
It says women suppress a lot oftheir sides.
It's a form of code switching,a term to describe how one
speaks and behaves differentlyin order to match an intended
audience.
Code switching is, at art, asurvival mechanism, a way of
(46:22):
showing at any particular moment, that you fit in, you're not a
threat and you belong.
I should paint that on a wallsomewhere.
I mean absolutely.
I mean, if you want to talkabout code switching, if I said
all this for the last 40 minutesand you didn't get any of it,
get this one right here, getthis one right here and you've
done well for the night.
And then I just have this.
(46:44):
I'm coming up with a podcast,y'all it's going to be Doc and
Crocs.
People in my office know that Iwear Crocs of all different
colors, purple, every shade ofpurple I can wear.
But I got to sit down longenough to figure out what I'm
going to talk about and then I'mgoing to put that out, so be
looking forward to that.
So I want to answer somequestions that you guys have.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
Let me stop sharing and then I guess I could get
back to the Awesome and folks.
If you're going to ask aquestion, I would ask that you
put it in the chat, because ifyou unmute you'll show up in the
video, and then I got to edityou out for the YouTube and all
the things, and then you have toa release or something, I don't
know.
But if you'll put it in thechat, then if I ask you to
unmute or a doctor doesn't askyou to unmute, then yeah, go for
(47:33):
it.
Or if you just don't mind beingin the video, that's fine too.
Um, so we had some earlier on.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Okay, wait, maybe I'm not looking at the chat right.
Hold on, if you see some justholler out, I'm trying to read
them real quick no, no, that's,that's.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
I see a lot of comments, yeah but you're
mistaken for the help you.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
You know, and it's funny because when I'm in my
home office and I go open thatfront door, I'm not.
I don't always dress like Iwould in an office outside of
there, right?
So I'm a lot more casual.
I have my Crocs on because Ihave these hardwood floors and
they're bad for your feet, butI'm not going to sit around in
whole shoes at home.
(48:32):
Medical code switching todescribe how a patient might
switch to more clinical languageand speaking with doctors to
more effectively advocate forthemselves or their loved one,
that's interesting.
I'm sure there's lots ofversions of code switching.
You know when I think aboutthat.
You know I have a sister.
My little sister is on here.
I was talking about her aminute ago, so, but she said she
(48:54):
was going to be quiet and notsay anything.
So, but I still love her.
But my older sister I alwayssay she speaks in SAT, like, are
you talking to?
Like why?
Again, she grew up in the sameenvironment.
I did, but that language reallystuck for her and I'm always
feeling like I need to carry adictionary just to figure out
what she's talking about.
Um, I see lots of things.
(49:18):
I don't necessarily see aquestion.
Um, I don't either.
The audiobook was reallypowerful.
Oh the hate you give.
Oh yeah, and I enjoyed themovie after I had read the book.
Um, I had a high school englishteacher explain that the idea
of the melting pot was outdatedand realistic.
Instead, she said instead shesaid talked about the idea of a
(49:42):
mixed salad where we all can mixtogether.
I've heard that before.
You know, I think the meltingpot gets a little offensive to
(50:04):
people sometimes, because it'salmost like you're being forced
to be like everybody else, as ifthat everybody else is the
standard right, and I thinkthere's value in each of us
coming to the table and beingwho we are.
And let's start there and havesome conversation.
Oh, dr Ivory.
Dr Ivory said I don't wear Crocsbecause I'm a Black woman and
(50:25):
don't want to be seen as ghetto.
Amen, I would say the samething about a bonnet.
So to me, the thing about Crocsand I'm very particular about
this, even in my house pick upyour feet when you're walking.
So I always feel like thatghetto picture that I get in my
head is because you're shufflingyour feet when you're walking.
So I always feel like thatghetto picture that I get in my
(50:45):
head is because you're shufflingyour feet.
I pick my feet up.
We walk with purpose.
That's what I teach mygrandkids.
My children were taught thatway.
Pick up your feet, don't godragging your.
If I can hear you coming downthe hallway you're doing
something wrong, but it's fun.
My clients like my Crocs,especially when I get a new pair
.
Um and so my?
(51:06):
My kids tell me I dress likethe girl animals cause I always
want to match.
So I want to get a pair ofCrocs and match whatever shirt
I'm wearing.
For today I'm not today I dohave a pair of purple Crocs on
right now as we speak.
The topic came up in my veryfirst counseling five, one class
I taught a few years back.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
You got one question ahead of that Could code
switching mean as a betrayal ina personal relationship?
Has this happened to you?
Speaker 2 (51:31):
John, let me make sure I understand that If I was
to code switch, would somebodyI'm in relationship feel like
I'm betraying my Blacknessbecause I'm code switching?
Can he unmute?
(51:54):
Or he's oh, he's saying yes,he's like I'm not getting in
that video.
I don't want to be in thatvideo.
I mean it could be.
I mean I think it's.
Everybody views their ethnicitydifferently.
Their experiences have beendifferent, um, but I mean
(52:18):
anybody that I'm in a personalrelationship with.
They would understand where I'mcoming from.
They might not agree, thatmight not be how they operate,
but I would.
I have that expectation ofpeople that I'm in relationship
with.
However, I do think Blackpeople in general.
We could call you a sellout.
For years we called peopleUncle Toms if they acted too
(52:41):
white.
What is that?
I'm sorry.
I even said that y'all.
I apologize, but that's whatthat was.
It's still what it is.
You'll still see people callpeople Uncle Tom.
Yeah, let me say okay.
So a class.
It all started over commentregarding thanksgiving and what
(53:05):
families eat.
This was the best class I'vehad to date.
The students were veryauthentic and shared their
diverse stories.
It was very informative andpowerful and brought the class
together as a whole.
I could not have taught this.
This was an amazing life lessonto all of us.
Um, you know, ruby pain doessome things with food, and what
the meaning of food does withthese different classes.
(53:27):
It's very interesting to me.
I was just telling somebody,you know, so I have clients that
have unhealthy relationshipswith food, right, and so we do
have to talk about that sometime.
You know, tiktok is horrible,is horrible, um, but it is how I
decompress at the end of theday, cause it's just makes me
(53:48):
giggle.
Um, but you know, who are yougoing to invite to the cookout?
Everybody can't come to thecookout.
Everybody can't make potatosalad.
Um, uh, and it's, and it'sfunny to me because that to me
is so, I don't know, because Ithink there's a certain set of
us that will get upset when theytalk about Black.
(54:08):
People always eat fried chicken,you know, and people get
offended by that.
We probably do eat a lot offried chicken, but it goes back
to slave times.
That was what was afforded tous, that was what was running
around in the backyard.
I met my husband.
He was real country and he wasaccustomed to going out in the
backyard.
I met my husband.
He was real country and he, hewas accustomed to go out in the
backyard and swinging thechicken around and bringing it.
That would gross me out.
(54:29):
There's no way I'm eating thatchicken.
I am not eating that chicken.
Um, so, but I do think.
Um, oh, somebody said do youendorse Ruby Payne's book a
framework for understandingpoverty, ruby Payne's book, a
(54:49):
Framework for UnderstandingPoverty?
I do, I do.
I think there's things to learnthrough her book.
I think there's good points init.
I have rarely found a book thatI'm going to amen everything
from cover to cover.
I mean, I might take issueswith some of those things, but I
do think there's a lot to that.
But I tell people there's notlike a blanket that you can
throw over all black people andassume that we're going to all
act the same, because we don't,but neither does anybody else.
(55:10):
All Asian people don't act thesame.
All Indian people don't act thesame.
All white people don't act thesame.
Hello, and they're the dominantculture, but they don't all act
the same.
They are very different people.
Right, she said it started overdressings or stuffing with
apples or raisins.
(55:31):
But somebody said I can attestto that.
I grew up and I'm comfortablewith all races.
When I was a young man, I foundmyself code switching to speak
with black dialect when I wasyounger.
Interesting, brandon, that'svery interesting.
You know, I always said likethere would be times where I
would hear how other Blackpeople would talk and I would
(55:52):
try to do that and I would soundlike a white person trying to
sound Black, if that's a thing,you know what I'm saying.
Like I just it's just like aHispanic person that can roll
their R's, like there's justsome like I've met some people,
y'all don't.
There's just some like I've metsome people, y'all don't tell
nobody this.
But like I've met some peopleand I'm like, ooh, they cuss so
good.
Like why am I, you know,admiring cussing?
But you know, you ever heardpeople cuss and they can like
(56:14):
string them together really welland it's very labored for me,
you know.
I'm like trying to.
You know I wouldn't be scary orintimidating to anybody in that
way, but interesting, and nowwe don't.
I hope now, brandon, that youdon't feel like you have to do
that right, that you don't feellike you have to.
He said in context I am Black.
(56:41):
I see you, brandon, I see youyeah there you go.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
Dr Dunn, I want to thank you for this.
I am learning so much and Icontinue to learn, and it was
just my own personal experience.
Sitting here You're talking,I'm like, okay, I get it, I get
it, I get it.
You know, I've been a woman in,you know, predominantly male
situations, or I've been themaster student with the doc
(57:09):
students.
I've been the young person withpeople who are old.
And then you got me with thestress part.
When you were talking about thecortisol, when you were talking
about how it's constant, Ithought, oh, I don't, I don't
know, I don't know Yep, and wecarry it everywhere we go, right
.
Speaker 2 (57:28):
So whether or not we're in, you know ATB, whether
or not we're, you know anywhere,everywhere we go, it follows us
.
Speaker 1 (57:38):
Thank you for that yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:40):
So I appreciate you guys.
You know, in the multiculturalclass that I teach, I'm always
like you're not going to learneverything, you're not going to
learn about every culture anddon't ever think you have,
because you're going to run intothat person that just operates
differently or thinksdifferently.
You know we run into whitepeople who were born, you know,
(58:01):
adopted by black people, and sothey were raised in different
environments.
Their voice is different.
They, you know, how they thinkabout things is very different.
You know I was raised not to bea fighter.
We used our words, use yourwords.
You know other people that Iknew, that I grew up with,
didn't, weren't raised like that.
So, yeah, but I appreciate youguys so much for joining in and
(58:24):
having the conversation.
I think it's an importantconversation to have, um, and,
and you know, one of the bestthings that you can do is go
back and talk to other peopleabout the same thing.
Go find out what your friendsthink about this, see if they've
run into any of this, see if ithelps them.
See other people that theyinteract with on a day-to-day
basis through a different lens,because it's a real thing, but
(58:50):
it can be a superpower.
Speaker 1 (58:52):
Thank you for this.
Thank you so much and I am sohappy you agreed to come talk to
us.
Please let us know when yourpodcast goes live, because I
will be up everywhere,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (59:02):
Y'all hold me accountable for that, so I can
make sure we will be demandingit.
Speaker 1 (59:07):
Can we tag you on social media?
Because then we can askquestions and say we're awesome.
Speaker 2 (59:14):
I'm everywhere, I guess.
Speaker 1 (59:16):
So for housekeeping, just remember, take a second,
click the link.
Everybody do.
Take five seconds, four, three,two, one.
Click the link and then go havean amazing evening because you
just did a great thing.
You just made yourself a littlebit smarter and uh, thank you
(59:36):
all for coming.
Dr dunn, thank you again.
Thank you.
You guys are welcome.
You're awesome.
See everybody at tca maybe.
So all right, guys, we'll bethere.
Bye bye.
Welcome, Dr Dunn.
Tell us a little bit about youand the program you're going to
give us tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Okay, I am Dr Patrice Dunn.
I'm in the Dallas area and Ihave a private practice that
I've been doing almost 20 yearsI don't really count, but it's
getting close to that.
I am an assistant professor atMidwestern State University,
enjoying that loving workingwith future counselors.
(00:31):
I've been a counselorsupervisor for almost as many
years as I've been in privatepractice, and so this topic for
me.
Last year about this time I hadattended a couple of conferences
ACA, aces a couple conferencesand this topic kept coming up of
code switching and I left therewith a feeling of, oh, some
(00:56):
people are missing some things.
They were talking about it.
I agreed with everything theywere saying, but I thought that
there was another perspective toit.
I was raised in predominantlywhite environments and so how I
view code switching had a littledifferent perspective on how
(01:16):
some of the presenters I waswatching had.
So I thought, you know, theremight be some people who know
what it is and don't have anyreason to know what it is, and
some people are angry becausethey feel they're put in
situations where they're forcedto code switch for lots of
different reasons, and we'lltalk about some of that tonight.
(01:37):
And so I just thought let's justget a little more clarity.
It challenged me as an educatorto kind of dig a little deeper,
seeing what other people weresaying about it.
I've talked to several peoplejust in preparation for this
that work in different areas andjust seeing how they're
processing that, how they'rehandling it, eventually you know
(02:01):
what is the cost to our mentalhealth when you're doing that.
I always tell people everythingcosts you something and so to
be put in those situationswhether they're voluntary or not
, I believe, cost us something.
So we'll look at that and thenwhat we can do as counselors
whether we feel like we codeswitch or not, how we can help
(02:25):
improve in that area.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Awesome, thank you.
So before I, if you need toshare screen, you can do that.
I've made you co-host a littlehousekeeping.
If you've attended these before, you know the drill.
Please leave your camera on ifyou would like the CE.
If you don't need the CE, don'tworry about it.
You can eat your dinner withyour camera on, we don't care.
(02:49):
But if you'll look over in thechat, you'll see that we have
posted an attendance link.
You must click that link andfill out the Google form.
It's super quick and it's very,very helpful if the name you
are using in this presentationmatches that name.
So take a moment and just clickthe link and that way you have
(03:10):
it when the meeting ends and youwon't need to worry about it.
I think that's it All.
Right, dr Dunn, over to you,okay.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Let me just say real quick thank you for my fellow
faculty members for joining intoday.
I appreciate love you guys.
I'm glad you're here, I'm gladeverybody is here, and I will
leave plenty of time forquestions and discussion.
That's how I learn is bytalking about what we're talking
about, and I did get a coupleof questions that I will address
(03:43):
from Kate before if I don'tcover it in what we're talking
about.
So just a couple of things thatI want to go through very
quickly.
I'm going to talk about my why.
Why am I talking about this?
We'll find a definition of codeswitching.
I'm going to give you lots ofexamples Again.
That's kind of how I learned,like show me what that looks
like.
I'm going to talk about codeswitching as it relates to
(04:05):
counselors and clients.
Hold on, I lost my button.
Talk about why do people codeswitch, the negative impacts of
that on their mental health,strategies and solutions.
How do we move forward withthat?
I'll talk a little bit abouthow I use it as my superpower.
How do we move forward withthat?
(04:26):
I'll talk a little bit abouthow I use it as my superpower
and then we'll talk about theimplications of what counselors
need to know about codeswitching.
Hopefully I'll get through allof that, ok.
So I'm always curious like what, what do people know?
And just for the sake of time Iwon't go through that and use
(04:51):
the chat and all of that, butI'm always curious like was this
a brand new topic?
Did you hear Kate talk aboutthis?
And you're like I don't evenknow what code switching is.
What is that?
And so I think you know in thisgroup we could be at lots of
different places in terms ofwhat we already know about code
switching, but I'll share alittle bit about kind of my why
and kind of my journey throughthis.
Again, I grew up inpredominantly white environments
, went all through higher ed inwhite environments, and so I
(05:16):
think code switching was a thingfor me.
However, I didn't know that'swhat that was.
It just had always been what Ihad always done.
My mother was very instrumentalin making sure that she
inserted us in places where weweren't the only person of color
in the room.
We went and we traveled onvacations.
(05:37):
We always went to historicallyblack colleges and universities,
so we had a good mixture ofthat, but in terms of how we
presented ourselves, I think itled more to the dominant group
than not, and so I put thesepictures up here because they're
both me.
Obviously, I have braids in oneand I don't in the other.
(06:00):
In the other, and one of thethings this was recent, but I
used to think when I was doinglike photo shoots for my webpage
the book cover that I had, youknow, I didn't want to show up
in braids.
I mean, that was like aconscious thought that I had and
(06:22):
it kind of irritated me.
I'm like why am I even have tohave this conversation with
myself?
Why am I battling with myself?
I didn't want people to see mywebpage and think that I only
counsel black people, and so Iwould always take my braids out,
straighten my hair, take thepictures and then, if I wanted
to put the braids back in, Iwould.
(06:43):
But it was a thing that I wasconstantly thinking about all
the time what would I wear?
How would I show up?
I didn't want to be too Black,because that might scare some
other people off, and I happenedto be somebody who was much
more comfortable with differentgroups of people, just because
(07:04):
of how I grew up.
I put that Black Votes Mattershirt there because I had a
recent experience.
Over the summer I went to NewOrleans to the Essence Festival
and they're giving out T-shirtslike right and left.
So everybody's like, oh yay,something free.
And I always needed anothershirt to clean the house in or
whatever.
But I put this shirt on oneSaturday and ended up going to
(07:27):
the Kroger and I had this shirton.
Didn't even dawn on me.
I live in a predominantly whitearea of North Dallas and soon
as I got out the car, thisAfrican-American lady runs up to
me.
She's like, oh my gosh, I loveyour shirt.
And I was like, oh my gosh, Iactually left the house in this
shirt.
What was I thinking?
(07:47):
And I'm like, oh thanks, that'sso nice Because I want to
present myself one way to her.
But to the other people, I'mgoing into the store and I'm
like, should I turn the shirtinside out?
I didn't know what to do Again,frustrated at myself that I
even had to have thatconversation.
And so I definitely think it'sa thing.
I definitely think, if it's notmanaged well and identified
(08:11):
that it can start to wear onyour mental health and Lord
knows, I don't need any helpwith that.
So a couple of definitions.
I took these from peoplesmarter than me.
So don't you worry.
Code switching occurs whenpeople from historically
marginalized groups alter howthey present or express
themselves to gain acceptancefrom others in the dominant
(08:33):
group.
Y'all know who the dominantgroup is right.
Okay, just make sure everybodywill make sure we're using the
same definitions of things.
But you know, in this countrythat's the standard.
The dominant group sets thestandard for what beauty is,
what acceptable is, what tone ofvoice makes sense in different
environments.
Code switching may involveadjusting one appearance, style
(08:57):
of speech, behavior andexpressions to optimize the
comfort of others in exchangefor fair treatment, advancement
and employment opportunities.
The code switching phenomena isvisible in various settings,
particularly in professional andeducational environments, where
people of color navigate spacesin which they are racially or
ethnically or gender minority.
(09:22):
You know, it just made me think,and kind of reading this again,
I do think that there is some.
You know.
They talk about your employmentopportunities.
I think about genders.
I mean generations, how somegenerations show up for a job
interview Now.
Our parents and grandparentswould just be rolling over Like
what are you doing?
Why are you dressing like mygrandma?
(09:42):
But do you have pantyhose on?
Are you wearing a slip?
You know those.
You know it was that standardblack suit, white shirt.
You know that's how youpresented yourself.
These kids show up and whoknows, there's no standard now
kind of how they do that.
But again, you know that's thegenerations are kind of a
(10:04):
different thing.
But these are two definitionsfor me that are kind of the
whole big picture of that.
I'm curious to know I guesssomebody could put it in the
chat because I really just wantto know and I figured I have a
captive audience here so I couldask I'm curious if, based on,
(10:45):
these'all got to watch this clipbecause it's a quick one.
But I want you just to kind oftell me what you see in this.
You guys should recognize him.
He's been around.
Do you see that?
I'll play it again because itwas quick but it's good.
I played again because it wasquick but it's good.
(11:07):
You notice the difference inhow he greets people.
I don't know if you know any ofthe work of Ruby Payne, but she
does a lot of work with classes,more so than race and ethnicity
, but she talks about thatmiddle class, the upper class,
and then people in poverty Oneof the things that she says
about people in poverty andthere's a lot of people of color
(11:30):
that might fall in that, butthere's also people in the
dominant group.
But she talks about howobservant we are.
We watch how people interactwith each other, right.
And so if I'm a, if I'm aparent and I'm going to meet the
teacher night, I'm going tolook at how this white teacher
greets all of the parents.
You know.
So she's given hugs and youknow warm handshakes, and then
(11:53):
she comes up to me and there'sno physical contact, there's no
anything.
I'm developing a really quickopinion of that.
And so me, being anAfrican-American parent, going
into that environment, am Ichanging how I interact with
that white teacher versus when Igo to the third period class?
Am I responding differently toa teacher of color?
(12:15):
Maybe my tone, maybe the way Igreet them is different, but
that handshake was definitelyjust telling to me.
So, again, as I was kind ofputting this presentation
together, I began to think aboutthe counselor versus the client
.
I've had people I office out ofmy home now and so I have people
(12:37):
that call and want to make anappointment.
They'll want to come in and Iwill open my front door and the
shock that I see on people'sface.
Sometimes I'm not sure if theythink I'm the help.
I'm not sure you know they'relike am I here to see her?
Who is she?
They don't really know whatkind of name Patrice is, so
(12:57):
they're not really sure.
My mom told me she named meafter a French white man, so I
don't know what they're thinkingwhen they hear my name.
But so then there's just thisoh my gosh, so then I'm you know
.
So then I.
Then I'm thinking,unconsciously, thinking if you
can do that, how am I going towin this person over?
(13:18):
How am I going to quicklydevelop rapport?
Because obviously the color ofmy skin has their mouth on the
floor right, and so I have tovery quickly get their
confidence, get them to sit down.
It doesn't take long.
I've been doing it too long tonot be good at doing it, but you
can definitely see that.
So sometimes the code switchingcould be from the counselor
(13:39):
based on the clientele thatthey're seeing.
As a school counselor.
Sometimes it depends on thedemographics of the school that
I might be in.
I worked in a district where Iwas a district-wide counselor,
so I got to see the whole gamut.
But so sometimes it's on us theownership of that code
switching as the counselor, tosee what do I need to modify or
(14:01):
dial back or tone down as acounselor?
Do I speak differently to myclients of color?
Do I speak differently to Asianclients?
And then, on the flip side ofthat, do I have clients that
come to me?
Again, my question would bewould a white client come to me
(14:21):
and feel the need to code switchor not?
I'm thinking not, but that'sjust me and I'm not able to
speak on that with any level ofexperience.
But other clients that mightcome in and think a certain way,
and there's lots of things thatput people in that position to
(14:43):
feel like that.
There could be a client thatcomes in that looks like me, but
they see these three diplomason my wall and they might feel
like, okay, now they have to sitdifferently or they have to
present themselves a certain way.
We know that people come intocounseling all the time thinking
that there's a right answer tothings and that we're looking
for that right answer as opposedto you know I work really hard
(15:05):
in my office just to get peopleto come in and feel like you're
just sitting in somebody'sliving room having a
conversation.
I don't want it to be thatstoic, sterile kind of feel, but
so I, just, from the lensthrough which you're looking at
this, I want you to think aboutit yourself as the counselor and
then how that affects yourclients that are coming in there
(15:28):
.
One of the questions that I gotwas what are some physical,
verbal and other social cuespeople look for before they code
switch?
I said, wow, that's a goodquestion.
I don't know.
Here's what my thought was.
I just read it a little bit ago.
I haven't had much processingtime.
(15:49):
I don't think code switching isalways conscious environments
with different people.
Thanksgiving at my house is notthe same Patrice that you see
at work every day.
Right, I might be louder.
I laugh really loud anyway.
(16:09):
We're just loud people.
My whole family is like thatand so everything we do is I
used to tell my students when Itaught school I don't know how
to whisper Like, everything I dois loud.
If I'm correcting you, it'sgoing to be loud, don't be
offended.
It's going to be loud, don't beoffended, it's going to be loud
.
If I'm loving on you, it'sgoing to be loud.
Right, my class is not thatclass that walks down the
(16:30):
hallway very quiet.
You know we try to put bubblesin our mouth and all those
things.
It just doesn't work that way.
But I do believe that codeswitching can be individualistic
.
Like everybody, it might showup differently for everybody.
I don't think I could teach aclass on how to identify code
switching.
(16:50):
I think it's one of those toolsthat, as a therapist, you put on
your belt and if you're pushingup against some resistant with
your clients, if you're noticingthat they're uncomfortable,
then I tell my students all thetime take the risk, ask them.
I'm getting the sense thatyou're really uncomfortable.
What is that about?
(17:11):
Are you uncomfortable?
Are you used to being in thesesituations?
I look around sometimes.
I've been in some environmentswhere I look up and all of a
sudden a white person will bethe only white person in the
room.
Well, they're probably feelinga little uncomfortable and I can
just imagine that I've been inthat situation.
(17:31):
So we talk about transparency alot, you know, and how to use
that and be skillful in usingthat in a therapeutic situation.
That would be one of thosetimes.
But I don't know that there'sany signs or clues.
I think the younger they are,they would be less informed
about that they're codeswitching.
(17:52):
I don't think they think thatthat's what they're doing.
They're doing it.
That is just how they survive.
That's how they fit in.
We talk about people with thatsense of belonging and community
.
They're doing it to fit.
This is how everybody elsetalks.
I did that one time I told mydad.
I came home I said but dad,lisa's mom said he was like, do
(18:13):
you need a new address?
I said no, sir, I'm fine, I'mgood, I'm sorry, I don't know
what I was thinking, but youknow, to him it's like that's
not how we do things and youdon't have to do it the way
(18:34):
everybody else does things.
Okay, let me keep moving here.
Okay, so this is JanelleHazelwood.
She said in my experience, if Ispoke too loudly, I was labeled
ghetto or uncouth.
If I spoke too much with myhands, using slang, or didn't
enunciate every syllable, I'd beconsidered unreliable,
uneducated or not trustworthy.
If I used analogies that weresmart but rooted in urban or
Black culture, I'd sometimes belaughed at like I was the
(18:56):
company comedian.
I thought that was powerful,very well said and I believe
many people would be able torelate to that.
We talk all the time ascounselors about our biases and
what do we do with that?
How do we check our biases atthe door?
(19:16):
I think this is one of thosethings.
I've gone into schools.
There'll be a group ofAfrican-American girls.
They're like miss, they're allcalling us loud.
And is that another?
I'm like well, are you beingloud?
They're like well, yeah, I'mlike well, that's why they're
doing it.
So you don't have to kind ofbuy into that stereotype.
(19:38):
But shouldn't it just be okaythat we communicate differently,
that we might use our hands?
In some cultures it might bedisrespectful to use your hands.
I don't know about you guys,but these new things, these
bells and whistles on thesecomputers, sometimes, because I
talk with my hands, all of asudden a thumbs up will go up on
(20:00):
my screen.
Yeah, I'm like wait, how'd thathappen?
Like I don't know how to makeit happen.
I think I know how to do, likethe hearts and all the little
hearts that start to go up.
But when you're talking, I getballoons that'll go up, confetti
that will go up because I talkwith my hands.
So it's always a reminder to me.
When I videotape like a podcastor something like that, I'm
(20:23):
kind of like sitting on my handsbecause, you know, I'll always
have a hand across my face.
So there's a book.
You know books are alwaysbetter than the movies.
But it's also a movie called theHate U Give and it's about a
young girl.
She's a high schooler thatlives in the inner city but
attends school in apredominantly white area.
(20:45):
Her father thought that wasbest for her, so he sends her
out there, but she's tornbetween these two very different
cultures and not reallyhandling it well.
She has a friend that's shot bya police officer, so she's
dealing with that.
How to find her voice?
Her white friends are likewhat's wrong with you?
Why are you all upset?
(21:05):
So it's just a really goodexample of that.
I work in these affluent schooldistricts where there's lots of
kids of lots of colors andparents always tell them don't
apologize for wanting your kidsto be in a certain school
district, but understand thatthe struggle is real.
(21:26):
And at this age you know, inthe middle of adolescence
they're trying to identify whothey are.
So when we talk about theiridentity development, they're
struggling because of that.
I was going to show you a clipfrom that.
It was just going to be thetrailer of the movie.
You can Google that Um, but forthe sake of time I don't want
(21:48):
to do that and I'm not sure allthis technology, what's going on
.
So I thought it would beimportant that we kind of
discuss um, you know, I wasthinking about like who, who
code switch?
So if, if, white people don'tcode switch, I don't know, I
haven't seen the feedback yet,but you know, I think there's
times where women might feellike they need to code switch.
(22:09):
I was watching something.
Oh, I went and presented to aschool that's all construction,
plumbing, all that kind of stuff, and they have a lot of mental
illness.
Apparently, they have very highrates of suicide in
construction, mental illnessApparently, they have very high
rates of suicide in construction.
And so they hired me on to comeout there and talk to them.
And there's one woman there andI'm like, ooh wonder what that
(22:31):
experience is like for her.
Does she show up on the job andshe's very feminine or does she
feel like she has to toughen upand talk like the guys and act
like the guys?
So I think, women I'm speakingfrom the perspective of an
African-American person.
When I taught in Dallas, myHispanic students struggled with
(22:52):
that.
They were actually when I wasin Dallas years ago.
They would almost get introuble for speaking Spanish at
recess lunch.
I'm like, let them talk.
Well, you know, that's whenthey're comfortable, you know.
But a lot of them, theirparents would be embarrassed to
come.
They all try to get rid ofaccents if they could.
They didn't want to have thataccent.
(23:14):
I had a couple of students fromIndia that would bring their
lunch but boy, when they wouldopen their lunch the smells
would be strong.
I mean I don't cook that well,but I mean I would assume it's
curry and some other things andthose smells linger, right.
So kids are always like, eh,what's that smell?
(23:35):
I have a client of mine gotkicked out of school recently.
It's not funny, I'm sorry.
I laughed, but he got kickedout of school because he was
eating a burrito and somebodywas making fun of like how that
smelled.
And they're like oh, thatstinks so bad I can't believe
you're eating that.
So he punched the kid in theface multiple times, went to
alternative school.
He said I missed homecomingbecause of a burrito.
(23:58):
I said, yeah, you did.
So.
You know, doesn't make muchsense.
But there you go and thenclothes.
You know, kids, adolescents,are trying to find their
identity.
Parents complain all the timelike, oh my gosh, why are they
dressing so goth?
They're so dark, they're notdoing you know, or you know it's
.
There's a lot of research thatshows that African-American
(24:19):
males do well in predominantlywhite schools, do better in
terms of that sense of community, because people think they're
cool, they're hip, they haveswag, they you know, they have
rhythm and beat and all of thesekinds of things, and so they
assimilate a little better thanthe girls, who they're thought
of as loud and aggressive andthose kinds of things.
(24:41):
But a lot of it is.
You start seeing the white kidswanting to dress like some of
the African-American males do,and so everybody's trying to
figure out who they are.
I work with a lot of adultsthat are still trying to figure
out who they are, and so let'sgo through this list the
purposes Now this is very.
This list the purposes Now thisis very academic.
(25:08):
I'll just say that word for howthey describe this in the
literature Social integrationAll the research talks about.
Retention in college and highered is all about that sense of
community and you're finding aplace that you can belong.
Identity expression We'vetalked about that, whether or
not the identity is in how youwear your hair, your jewelry
(25:29):
Some people do that throughtattoos.
The communication efficiencywhy would they say that?
Like that, I'm just like that'sa whole lot of words, but just
in how you communicate.
Somebody was saying, oh, one ofmy students was doing something
on a presentation and wastalking about.
You know cultures that don'tlook in your eyes.
(25:51):
You know like it'sdisrespectful to look somebody
dead in their face.
In this country we're like, ohmy gosh, you're being so rude.
You want to look at me when Italk to you kind of thing.
And sometimes it's just ourword choice that makes us less
efficient.
Social norms and expectationsthe cultural adaptations this
(26:12):
country has always deemedthemselves the melting pot,
right?
Well, what if some people don'twant to really melt together?
What if we don't like whatwe're blending with Right?
But there is this, thisunspoken goal of assimilation
that we're all going to holdhands and sing Kumbaya.
(26:38):
Year two in higher ed.
You definitely see power,dynamics and where people fit in
with all of that, theexpression of solidarity or
inclusion.
I believe you know I'm not thebrightest apple in the bunch,
but I believe everybody wants tobelong somewhere.
(26:59):
I just do, and I'm not talkingabout middle schoolers and mean
girl stuff.
I'm not just talking about highschools and cliques.
I'm talking about adults.
I think adults desire to fit insomewhere.
They want to have their people,their tribe, their group of
people, whether or not it's atwork, it's at home, it's at
(27:19):
church, wherever they are, theywant to fit in and feel like
they're a part of something, andthat just doesn't always happen
.
Personal preference Some peoplein my experience just feel more
comfortable being around whitepeople.
I don't look like them, but Ifeel more comfortable because
(27:41):
I've learned how to operate andmove in circles with them.
So sometimes it's just apreference and so I have to
speak a certain way so I canstay a part of that group that
I've made myself a member of.
I'm going to say this about thepurposes.
I think it's very different foreverybody.
(28:03):
I think about multiracialpeople, children.
All of my grandchildren aremultiracial and they find
themselves sometimes not whiteenough to be considered white,
not Black enough to be Black,considered white, not Black
(28:27):
enough to be Black.
In the African-American culturethere's lots of things that
separate us, whether it's thetone of our skin, if it's the
hair, the texture of our hairAll of my grandbabies look like
they're Hispanic Black or white,they just look Hispanic.
But what is that struggle likefor an adolescent that's trying
to develop and figure that out?
Um, you know, do I act likethis or do I act like that?
(28:49):
Um, my one granddaughter she's17 now, but she?
Um used to say she was going tovisit her Brown family, um, and
so we were the Brown family andthen she had her white family
and she said the Brown familydefinitely ate better, um, so
she enjoyed coming over here toget some good food.
So I didn't argue with her, Iagreed.
So negative impacts that's kindof what we're, you know, hoping
(29:12):
to avoid.
We want to bring somerecognition to this issue.
And then how can we avoid this?
So that identity strain, tryingto figure out who you are, just
that feeling of self-worth,like I belong, I am worthy.
I think you know a lot of myresearch is with women, but I
(29:32):
definitely believe everybodywants to be seen and wants to be
heard.
Right now I don't know if thathas something to do with how
they end up dressing or talkingor wearing their hair.
Sometimes I do think people areattention seekers, but in
groups of people, not only do wewant to find our group, we want
to be seen and we want to beheard.
(29:53):
You want to be valued, you wantpeople to hear what you're
saying and then hang somethingon that Like wow, that was good.
And there's places I've been inthem where I might say
something and you just hearcrickets and the research says
then somebody else comes alongfrom the dominant group, might
(30:15):
say something very similar tothat, and then we build on that
and then that's a great idea,let's go ahead.
Let's run with that idea.
Good job, bob.
And that's a great idea.
Let's go ahead.
Let's run with that idea.
Good job, bob, you know.
And so how do we, how do wehave a voice without code
switching?
Can we find?
(30:37):
Are we able to be seen andheard without having to code
switch?
Emotional labor this is one thatI learned about during my
dissertation.
Labor that just reminds me ofhaving babies.
Like that's hard work, right,could be worth it in the long
run.
The end result could be good,but it's some work and it's
emotional.
When we talk about wellbeing,we talk about your physical
(31:00):
health, we talk about yourmental health, your emotional
health.
This is emotional labor.
This is work to the point ofburnout your stress.
What are they?
Commercials talk about Cortisolall the time.
That increased stress and thenall the negative, gosh awful
things that can happen to you ifyou don't moderate that
(31:20):
Authenticity concerns, like justshowing up, being authentically
.
You just I want to be who I am.
I don't want to have to dumbthat down, tone that down,
because I'm going to be around acertain group of people so I
can't talk about certain topicsor I can't speak a certain
language.
I think we're in that periodnow because of politics certain
(31:46):
language.
I think we're in that periodnow because of politics, right?
So if I go in a room of people,people might assume that, oh,
she's going to vote for, youknow, harrison Walls, or you
know, or they're going to assumeI'm going to walk into a room,
assume somebody else is going tovote for Trump, and then so it
brings all this unnecessarystress where, if the world would
go according to Patrice, we'dall be able to enter that
discourse and just agree todisagree, have important
(32:08):
conversations.
I don't think we grow unless wedo.
If we sit in a room full ofpeople that all think the same
thing, nobody's growing.
That sounds really boring to meOkay.
And then finally, the stereotypethreat.
There's lots of them.
I talked about biases brieflyalready, but all of those
stereotypes that we have aboutdifferent sex and groups of
(32:29):
people that you know I got toldthose girls you don't have to
live up to those stereotypes,you don't have to be a fighter
because that's what they say.
You know people probably thinkI can fight.
I've never been in a fight.
We'd be scared to fight.
So that's just not part of theculture that I grew up in.
(32:49):
Now I can talk, I can fight youwith my words.
I can probably out talk mostpeople.
I used to tell my husband allthe time if we get into a fight
you're going to lose because Ican out talk you.
He probably would still agreewith that.
(33:23):
So just some things to considerIf you were to have a client,
maybe as an adult that's workingin the world.
I had a client yesterday.
An African-American man been onWall Street his whole life.
He's in a whole big high-risebuilding right now and is the
only African-American person inthe building Right, and so he's
talked about that stress andthat strain and how he's had to
adapt and dial things back.
You know he definitely agrees.
He dresses differently at workthan he does at home.
You know, some of these youngkids want to show up in Nike
dunks and he's like I wouldnever wear that to work with a
(33:43):
suit.
I don't care what's going tohappen, you know, and so it does
affect how people interact withyou, but you could have
somebody easily coming to youroffice that needs help and that
is just beat down and worn out,and so you might not have
experienced it, but you need tokeep this on your tool belt, as
(34:04):
this might be a place we need toexamine.
Are they just worn down andstressed out because of the
emotional labor of showing up?
That very first picture I putup there was that young lady
that had that mask on.
So much like people do withdepression, they feel like they
got to go to school every day,put that mask on and smile and
be.
You know all things to allthese people, and then they're
(34:26):
exhausted when they come home.
You know, young peopletypically have meltdowns when
they come home and it doesn't govery well.
So I've decided you know I'malways the optimist how can I
take this thing that I didn'task for but is obviously a part
of how I move in thisprofessional life of mine, so
(34:51):
how can I use it as a superpower?
So I think it is an enhancedadaptability.
I feel like I'm very fluid.
If I was in a big room withlots of different groups of
people, I could probably findmyself in each group having some
conversation, maybe not totallyconnecting, but I could
(35:13):
definitely show up and be a partof.
I wouldn't feel, you know, leftout or like I would have to
leave.
I've just learned.
So you know I joke sometimes.
It's probably not funny.
You'll tell me if it's funny,but I always say I speak white
people.
I can hear white people.
You know I've done it longenough and I do.
(35:34):
I know people that look like me.
They're like what are theytalking about?
Like, what are they saying?
I'm like oh, I get it.
Hold on, let me interpret itfor you.
It's like this six, you know,sense that I have, or this.
Maybe I'm bilingual, maybethat's what it is.
And I can hear white peopleSocial integration, being able
to fit in, finding places.
You're seeing more of that.
(35:54):
You know, historically, blackcolleges used to be all black.
Now there's lots of whitepeople there for lots of
different reasons, money beingone of them because you know,
higher ed is a business and soyou know.
But my sister went to Stanford.
There were no Blackfraternities and sororities,
(36:17):
right.
So if she was going to join oneshe would have to join a white
one.
I don't even think at that time, because she's even older than
me, that she could have had anopportunity to join a Hispanic
sorority or something like that.
I don't even know if that was athing then.
And then the cultural identityaffirmation.
I've learned, um, I'm 60 yearsold so I've learned a lot.
(36:46):
Um, but it wasn't until I waslate forties before I really
started being okay with who Iwas.
Um, I was in these whiteenvironments.
I always knew I was different.
I was uncomfortable.
About that We'll talk anothertime.
I have a little sister who isvery, very light skin, very
(37:08):
light skin.
She went to the same highschool I did.
Her experience was verydifferent from mine.
She was able to get on thecheerleading squad.
We didn't have Blackcheerleaders.
She was on the cheerleadingsquad.
She ended up being homecomingqueen.
So the way she was able toassimilate and fit into that we
talk all the time now about.
You know just our differentexperiences with the same group
(37:32):
of people.
We're four years apart, but itwasn't generations apart.
So I've just decided that I'mgoing to take these things and
I'm going to use it and I'mgoing to hopefully be able to
help both sets.
What I run into is people thatlook like me, that are kind of
angry, like they're mad.
You know, and I'm like you know, I'm not code switching for
(37:53):
anybody.
I'm going to do what I wantcome in, have, okay.
Well, like this gentleman fromWall Street told me last night,
he said I'm always trying toeducate these young
African-American men, but theydon't listen and what I tell
them is you're not going to havea job for very long.
And that's exactly whathappened, you know.
So, whether it's right or wrong, it is just how we are and
where we are sometimes.
(38:14):
And so I decided if it's goingto be a thing that I have to
encounter and deal with, thenI'm going to use it to my
advantage, and I think I do thatrelatively well.
Maybe my co-workers might saysomething different, I don't
know.
So a couple of strategies andsolutions.
And because these are bigumbrellas and you have to I love
you too, wendy I have to.
(38:36):
You know, it's individual,where you are, what your
environment is, how much poweryour voice has to implement the
change.
I work at my home and so I canchange that environment however
I want to.
But cultivating supportivenetworks Facebook is a champion
(38:58):
in that kind of stuff becausethey have more groups for
everything.
Just counselors I mean there isthe clinicians of color,
there's the DFW counselors,there's the counselors and
supervisors.
I mean you can go all the wayacross the board and ask
anything that you want, and thatwhole entire group is so
supportive, because everybodyhas been not always about code
(39:20):
switching, but everybody needsto ask a question at some point.
Kate can tell you that, becauseshe'll always chime in and give
you some good advice.
Promoting inclusive practicesAgain, that's, if your voice has
some power somewhere that youcan kind of do that.
I'm always talking to schoolsabout creating welcoming
environments.
If kids don't see themselvesaround the building we're not
(39:45):
really good at that yet.
We're getting better but itkind of feels like a checkbox we
used to talk about.
Well, kids never see posters orbulletin boards with people
that look like them.
So then all of a sudden, you'llbe in a school full of white
people and boom, there's oneBlack person right there.
Oh, there goes one Hispanic,okay.
Well, so now they check the box.
(40:06):
Well, look, we got people thatlook different.
So it needs to be more genuine,more just, kind of organic.
And we're not there yet.
We got work to do Self-care andwell-being so we can prevent
some of that emotional labor.
Think about people likesometimes just on your staff.
(40:26):
If you work with a group ofpeople and you just get mean,
grumpy people all the time,sometimes they're just
emotionally spent, like I am sosick and tired of coming to
school every day and having toput on this face and letting you
you know that's a whole notherpresentation talking about
microaggressions and thoseinsults and all those kinds of
(40:47):
things, but it's like slaps inthe face to us, punches in the
gut.
You know you might as well hitus on the head with a bat and
you're like what, what did I say?
You know, and so we're like Idon't want to have to keep
teaching you that what you saywas offensive.
You know, like when are yougoing to go read a book or do a
podcast or something to educateyourself?
It gets to be exhausting forthe people that operate in that
(41:11):
level of offense and thenadvocating for change.
Look, if you can't advocate forchange, stop complaining.
You know nothing worse thansitting around a group of people
.
All they do is want to complainabout you know.
Woe is me.
Life's not fair and sometimesthey might be part of the
problem.
Don't tell them.
I said that, but none of y'allon here.
(41:32):
I'm just talking about thoseother people.
So what do counselors need toknow?
I'm finishing up y'all cominghome.
They should be mindful of howcode switching may impact
students, classroomparticipation, academic
performance, peer interactionsand just their overall
well-being.
One of my associates we talkabout this all the time she's in
a very affluent private school,but I'm working with a couple
(41:56):
of students from that campusvery smart, so their academics
doesn't really have anything todo with that part.
But what they tell me is likebut I can't trust my friends.
I have some good friends thatdon't look like me, but they
don't really trust them.
They're not really sure theysee the news, they hear these
(42:18):
things, so they're not quitesure how to figure that out and
as adolescents they haven'tquite developed all those skills
yet to be able to do that.
Counselors should create asupportive environment where
students feel comfortableexpressing their cultural
identities and authenticityAuthentically.
I'm sorry, oh, I was having athought.
(42:38):
So what I tell my students allthe time is, when you don't know
, when in doubt, ask, ask, whatcan I do to make you feel more
comfortable?
I had a student who, well, hewas sixth grade maybe and was
gay, and he was acting out on itlike in the most like lip gloss
(43:02):
, glittery lip gloss, doublebedazzle.
He wanted to bedazzleeverybody's jeans on the
football team.
So we were trying to dial himback just because the school
wasn't ready for it.
We weren't ready then, but Iactually went to one of our band
directors who was gay and askedhim, when you were in sixth
grade, what there goes that.
(43:23):
See, I did it.
What could, what could yourschool counselor have done for
you in sixth grade to to helpyou, because I don't want to
stop you from being who you needto be, but I also don't want
you to get beat up in the lockerroom because you've offended
one of these football players.
You just want to bedazzle theirjeans, right, and so I don't
(43:44):
have any.
I never present myself as if Iknow everything, so I'm very
comfortable asking questions,but I don't know.
Tell me more about this.
You guys, if you don't knowthis, if you ever go to an
adolescent and act like youdon't know something and you
need them to teach you something, you're going to get so many
points with them.
Oh, let me tell you how to dothis.
That's what I need to do withall these things that pop up on
(44:06):
my computer.
I said, when I get anadolescent in my office, I'm
going to have them show me howdo I make these thumbs up and
hearts and all this stuff going.
They'll show me and they'regoing to think they're super
smart.
Counselors should engage inongoing professional development
to enhance their knowledge andskills related to code switching
, multicultural counseling andworking with diverse student
populations.
(44:26):
I know my students are tired ofhearing me talk about
multicultural counseling, butK-Crips, they were supposed to
talk about it in every class andI absolutely.
It's kind of like ethics andsupervision, like every
situation.
We can talk about somethingethical and we can talk about
multicultural counseling.
I had to tell one of mystudents today multicultural is
(44:46):
not just race and ethnicity.
You know, that's all that hewas focused on.
I'm like it's bigger than that.
You have to incorporate all ofthose things.
You know what if they'rehearing impaired or vision
impaired or whatever thosethings are, and so we don't, as
a profession, have any excuse tonot go to professional
(45:08):
development.
I don't have any tolerance forpeople who are counselors and
complain about that.
I'm like you chose this field,so you're supposed to want to be
around other people that areexperiencing like things to you.
I love going to the nationalconferences because you get to
see how they're handling stuffacross the country, not just in
Texas.
I mean, texas is big and we seesome diversity with that, but
(45:32):
you're supposed to enjoy wantingto go out and do that and get
better, because that puts you ina better position to serve the
clientele.
Counselors need to approach codeswitching with cultural
sensitivity and respect forstudents' linguistic and
cultural backgrounds.
Just words matter.
Pick your words carefully,think about it.
You know, if you don't know tocall somebody a Latinx or
(45:57):
Hispanic or Mexican, they'lltell you.
Just ask, they'll tell youwhich one they're most
comfortable with.
Or they'll tell you, just ask,they'll tell you which one
they're most comfortable with.
So I'll finish with this quote.
It says women suppress a lot oftheir sides.
It's a form of code switching,a term to describe how one
speaks and behaves differentlyin order to match an intended
audience.
Code switching is, at art, asurvival mechanism, a way of
(46:22):
showing at any particular moment, that you fit in, you're not a
threat and you belong.
I should paint that on a wallsomewhere.
I mean absolutely.
I mean, if you want to talkabout code switching, if I said
all this for the last 40 minutesand you didn't get any of it,
get this one right here, getthis one right here and you've
done well for the night.
And then I just have this.
(46:44):
I'm coming up with a podcast,y'all it's going to be Doc and
Crocs.
People in my office know that Iwear Crocs of all different
colors, purple, every shade ofpurple I can wear.
But I got to sit down longenough to figure out what I'm
going to talk about and then I'mgoing to put that out, so be
looking forward to that.
So I want to answer somequestions that you guys have.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
Let me stop sharing and then I guess I could get
back to the Awesome and folks.
If you're going to ask aquestion, I would ask that you
put it in the chat, because ifyou unmute you'll show up in the
video, and then I got to edityou out for the YouTube and all
the things, and then you have toa release or something, I don't
know.
But if you'll put it in thechat, then if I ask you to
unmute or a doctor doesn't askyou to unmute, then yeah, go for
(47:33):
it.
Or if you just don't mind beingin the video, that's fine too.
Um, so we had some earlier on.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Okay, wait, maybe I'm not looking at the chat right.
Hold on, if you see some justholler out, I'm trying to read
them real quick no, no, that's,that's.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
I see a lot of comments, yeah but you're
mistaken for the help you.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
You know, and it's funny because when I'm in my
home office and I go open thatfront door, I'm not.
I don't always dress like Iwould in an office outside of
there, right?
So I'm a lot more casual.
I have my Crocs on because Ihave these hardwood floors and
they're bad for your feet, butI'm not going to sit around in
whole shoes at home.
(48:32):
Medical code switching todescribe how a patient might
switch to more clinical languageand speaking with doctors to
more effectively advocate forthemselves or their loved one,
that's interesting.
I'm sure there's lots ofversions of code switching.
You know when I think aboutthat.
You know I have a sister.
My little sister is on here.
I was talking about her aminute ago, so, but she said she
(48:54):
was going to be quiet and notsay anything.
So, but I still love her.
But my older sister I alwayssay she speaks in SAT, like, are
you talking to?
Like why?
Again, she grew up in the sameenvironment.
I did, but that language reallystuck for her and I'm always
feeling like I need to carry adictionary just to figure out
what she's talking about.
Um, I see lots of things.
(49:18):
I don't necessarily see aquestion.
Um, I don't either.
The audiobook was reallypowerful.
Oh the hate you give.
Oh yeah, and I enjoyed themovie after I had read the book.
Um, I had a high school englishteacher explain that the idea
of the melting pot was outdatedand realistic.
Instead, she said instead shesaid talked about the idea of a
(49:42):
mixed salad where we all can mixtogether.
I've heard that before.
You know, I think the meltingpot gets a little offensive to
(50:04):
people sometimes, because it'salmost like you're being forced
to be like everybody else, as ifthat everybody else is the
standard right, and I thinkthere's value in each of us
coming to the table and beingwho we are.
And let's start there and havesome conversation.
Oh, dr Ivory.
Dr Ivory said I don't wear Crocsbecause I'm a Black woman and
(50:25):
don't want to be seen as ghetto.
Amen, I would say the samething about a bonnet.
So to me, the thing about Crocsand I'm very particular about
this, even in my house pick upyour feet when you're walking.
So I always feel like thatghetto picture that I get in my
head is because you're shufflingyour feet when you're walking.
So I always feel like thatghetto picture that I get in my
(50:45):
head is because you're shufflingyour feet.
I pick my feet up.
We walk with purpose.
That's what I teach mygrandkids.
My children were taught thatway.
Pick up your feet, don't godragging your.
If I can hear you coming downthe hallway you're doing
something wrong, but it's fun.
My clients like my Crocs,especially when I get a new pair
.
Um and so my?
(51:06):
My kids tell me I dress likethe girl animals cause I always
want to match.
So I want to get a pair ofCrocs and match whatever shirt
I'm wearing.
For today I'm not today I dohave a pair of purple Crocs on
right now as we speak.
The topic came up in my veryfirst counseling five, one class
I taught a few years back.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
You got one question ahead of that Could code
switching mean as a betrayal ina personal relationship?
Has this happened to you?
Speaker 2 (51:31):
John, let me make sure I understand that If I was
to code switch, would somebodyI'm in relationship feel like
I'm betraying my Blacknessbecause I'm code switching?
Can he unmute?
(51:54):
Or he's oh, he's saying yes,he's like I'm not getting in
that video.
I don't want to be in thatvideo.
I mean it could be.
I mean I think it's.
Everybody views their ethnicitydifferently.
Their experiences have beendifferent, um, but I mean
(52:18):
anybody that I'm in a personalrelationship with.
They would understand where I'mcoming from.
They might not agree, thatmight not be how they operate,
but I would.
I have that expectation ofpeople that I'm in relationship
with.
However, I do think Blackpeople in general.
We could call you a sellout.
For years we called peopleUncle Toms if they acted too
(52:41):
white.
What is that?
I'm sorry.
I even said that y'all.
I apologize, but that's whatthat was.
It's still what it is.
You'll still see people callpeople Uncle Tom.
Yeah, let me say okay.
So a class.
It all started over commentregarding thanksgiving and what
(53:05):
families eat.
This was the best class I'vehad to date.
The students were veryauthentic and shared their
diverse stories.
It was very informative andpowerful and brought the class
together as a whole.
I could not have taught this.
This was an amazing life lessonto all of us.
Um, you know, ruby pain doessome things with food, and what
the meaning of food does withthese different classes.
(53:27):
It's very interesting to me.
I was just telling somebody,you know, so I have clients that
have unhealthy relationshipswith food, right, and so we do
have to talk about that sometime.
You know, tiktok is horrible,is horrible, um, but it is how I
decompress at the end of theday, cause it's just makes me
(53:48):
giggle.
Um, but you know, who are yougoing to invite to the cookout?
Everybody can't come to thecookout.
Everybody can't make potatosalad.
Um, uh, and it's, and it'sfunny to me because that to me
is so, I don't know, because Ithink there's a certain set of
us that will get upset when theytalk about Black.
(54:08):
People always eat fried chicken,you know, and people get
offended by that.
We probably do eat a lot offried chicken, but it goes back
to slave times.
That was what was afforded tous, that was what was running
around in the backyard.
I met my husband.
He was real country and he wasaccustomed to going out in the
backyard.
I met my husband.
He was real country and he, hewas accustomed to go out in the
backyard and swinging thechicken around and bringing it.
That would gross me out.
(54:29):
There's no way I'm eating thatchicken.
I am not eating that chicken.
Um, so, but I do think.
Um, oh, somebody said do youendorse Ruby Payne's book a
framework for understandingpoverty, ruby Payne's book, a
(54:49):
Framework for UnderstandingPoverty?
I do, I do.
I think there's things to learnthrough her book.
I think there's good points init.
I have rarely found a book thatI'm going to amen everything
from cover to cover.
I mean, I might take issueswith some of those things, but I
do think there's a lot to that.
But I tell people there's notlike a blanket that you can
throw over all black people andassume that we're going to all
act the same, because we don't,but neither does anybody else.
(55:10):
All Asian people don't act thesame.
All Indian people don't act thesame.
All white people don't act thesame.
Hello, and they're the dominantculture, but they don't all act
the same.
They are very different people.
Right, she said it started overdressings or stuffing with
apples or raisins.
(55:31):
But somebody said I can attestto that.
I grew up and I'm comfortablewith all races.
When I was a young man, I foundmyself code switching to speak
with black dialect when I wasyounger.
Interesting, brandon, that'svery interesting.
You know, I always said likethere would be times where I
would hear how other Blackpeople would talk and I would
(55:52):
try to do that and I would soundlike a white person trying to
sound Black, if that's a thing,you know what I'm saying.
Like I just it's just like aHispanic person that can roll
their R's, like there's justsome like I've met some people,
y'all don't.
There's just some like I've metsome people, y'all don't tell
nobody this.
But like I've met some peopleand I'm like, ooh, they cuss so
good.
Like why am I, you know,admiring cussing?
But you know, you ever heardpeople cuss and they can like
(56:14):
string them together really welland it's very labored for me,
you know.
I'm like trying to.
You know I wouldn't be scary orintimidating to anybody in that
way, but interesting, and nowwe don't.
I hope now, brandon, that youdon't feel like you have to do
that right, that you don't feellike you have to.
He said in context I am Black.
(56:41):
I see you, brandon, I see youyeah there you go.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
Dr Dunn, I want to thank you for this.
I am learning so much and Icontinue to learn, and it was
just my own personal experience.
Sitting here You're talking,I'm like, okay, I get it, I get
it, I get it.
You know, I've been a woman in,you know, predominantly male
situations, or I've been themaster student with the doc
(57:09):
students.
I've been the young person withpeople who are old.
And then you got me with thestress part.
When you were talking about thecortisol, when you were talking
about how it's constant, Ithought, oh, I don't, I don't
know, I don't know Yep, and wecarry it everywhere we go, right
.
Speaker 2 (57:28):
So whether or not we're in, you know ATB, whether
or not we're, you know anywhere,everywhere we go, it follows us
.
Speaker 1 (57:38):
Thank you for that yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:40):
So I appreciate you guys.
You know, in the multiculturalclass that I teach, I'm always
like you're not going to learneverything, you're not going to
learn about every culture anddon't ever think you have,
because you're going to run intothat person that just operates
differently or thinksdifferently.
You know we run into whitepeople who were born, you know,
(58:01):
adopted by black people, and sothey were raised in different
environments.
Their voice is different.
They, you know, how they thinkabout things is very different.
You know I was raised not to bea fighter.
We used our words, use yourwords.
You know other people that Iknew, that I grew up with,
didn't, weren't raised like that.
So, yeah, but I appreciate youguys so much for joining in and
(58:24):
having the conversation.
I think it's an importantconversation to have, um, and,
and you know, one of the bestthings that you can do is go
back and talk to other peopleabout the same thing.
Go find out what your friendsthink about this, see if they've
run into any of this, see if ithelps them.
See other people that theyinteract with on a day-to-day
basis through a different lens,because it's a real thing, but
(58:50):
it can be a superpower.
Speaker 1 (58:52):
Thank you for this.
Thank you so much and I am sohappy you agreed to come talk to
us.
Please let us know when yourpodcast goes live, because I
will be up everywhere,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (59:02):
Y'all hold me accountable for that, so I can
make sure we will be demandingit.
Speaker 1 (59:07):
Can we tag you on social media?
Because then we can askquestions and say we're awesome.
Speaker 2 (59:14):
I'm everywhere, I guess.
Speaker 1 (59:16):
So for housekeeping, just remember, take a second,
click the link.
Everybody do.
Take five seconds, four, three,two, one.
Click the link and then go havean amazing evening because you
just did a great thing.
You just made yourself a littlebit smarter and uh, thank you
(59:36):
all for coming.
Dr dunn, thank you again.
Thank you.
You guys are welcome.
You're awesome.
See everybody at tca maybe.
So all right, guys, we'll bethere.
Bye bye.
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