April 21, 2025 • 44 mins
A fading sun over Robert Clay Vineyards set the stage for Texas Wine and True Crime's season finale—an intimate gathering where hosts Brandy and Chris Diamond peeled back layers of Mason's hidden history through unsolved murders spanning more than a century.
Standing at a crossroads in their podcast journey, the Diamonds announced their leap into video content after four years of audio-only episodes. "Our faces have been somewhat obscured for the past four and a half years," Chris explained, signaling an evolution for their 162-episode-strong show that pairs Texas wines with true crime narratives.
The evening's exploration began with Jimmy Schuessler's 2001 murder—a case approaching its 24th anniversary without resolution. Investigators found Schuessler had bled to death on his couch after suffering a blow to the head outside his remote home. Blood trails revealed his tragic final moments: the struggle at his truck, his attempt to clean himself in the bathroom, and his eventual collapse in the living room. The location of his house—difficult to find unless you knew where it was—suggests his killer wasn't a random drifter but someone from his business dealings or personal life.
Traveling further back, the hosts unraveled the heartbreaking case of 17-year-old Adele Kaufman, murdered in 1892 while walking home from school. Found by her father on a path he had specially cleared for her safety, Adele's brutal killing left few clues beyond a bloodied stone and evidence of a horse tied nearby for hours. The killer had washed bloody hands in a stream before vanishing into history. "Every unsolved case gives us theories, but little closure," Brandy reflected as audience members contributed local knowledge that textbooks and archives could never capture.
What makes these stories resonate isn't just the mystery, but their connection to place—how they echo through generations in communities where everyone knows your name but some secrets remain buried. Follow Texas Wine and True Crime as they expand their storytelling through video while continuing to give voice to victims whose stories deserve to be remembered, glass of Texas wine in hand.
www.texaswineandtruecrime.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
All right.
Well, I am Brandy Diamond.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
And I'm Chris Diamond .
Speaker 1 (00:22):
And we are Texas Wine and True Crime.
We work with Texas wineries.
They send us wine, we pair themwith dishes, we talk a little
bit of true crime.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
We talk a lot of true crime.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
We talk a lot of true crime Something kind of fun.
Before we get started, I'mgoing to talk a little bit about
some authors we've interviewedand books, if you guys like to
read, or you can just look themup online and read about them,
or, yeah, just read about thecases, but I'll talk about these
in just a second.
So we've got some stickers.
(00:54):
We do this all over Texas, sothank you, robert Clay, for
having us.
This is actually going to beour last live show for this
season, so we're happy to closeit out here with our friends and
mason podcast podcasting seasonis coming to an end podcast,
live podcasting, not regularpodcasting.
No, we're going to be doingwe're actually going to be
(01:15):
implementing some video.
Our youtube is now up, um, soyou're going to see a lot more
of our faces on social media.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yes, there's lots of audio on youtube.
However, our faces have beensomewhat Obscured for the past
four and a half years.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah, but we have 162 episodes out there, so if you
want to listen, please listen.
Do you have anything to sharebefore we get started?
We have no other live showscoming up, so this is it.
Follow us.
We're going to be doing morevideo.
Here's some stickers Take.
We're going to be doing morevideo.
Here's some stickers.
Take some to a friend.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Well, I would like to say I'm very happy to come to
Robert Clay Vineyards again.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I am so happy.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
We really enjoyed our first time here.
I really enjoyed talking toeverybody and just the knowledge
that was shared with us andjust delicious wines as well
that were shared.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
We've got one more right.
We've got one more red thatwe're going to be putting on
next week's episode.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yep, the Toriga, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
We've got one more, so we've been enjoying their
wine the whole month of March.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I will need to figure out something to pair with that
.
Yes, you will that wine as well.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Okay, so we're actually going to be talking
about some cases right out herein Mason.
So we are going to start withwe're going to do a couple of
unsolved cases and then we'regoing to talk a little bit about
the Hoodoo Wars.
I'm going to let Chris leadthat one.
He's got some good informationabout the Hoodoo Wars and then
(02:46):
we're going to have a guestjoining us, the DA from right
here in Mason, tanya.
She is going to be joining usto talk about the arson that
happened at the courthouse andwhatever came of that case,
because I do believe it justclosed and sentencing was done
not that long ago.
So she'll be here to kind oftalk about the trial and what
went on with that case.
All right, so we're going tostart.
Let me let me start real quick,chris, before we jump into
Jimmy Schuessler, because that'swho we're going to start with.
So I want to just give just abrief thing about these books.
I don't sell these books.
You can find them on Amazon.
(03:06):
I had a lady come and borrowone.
I know her, so I let her borrowit, but these are really just
if you like to read.
I love interviewing authorsbecause I always like to know
why did you choose this case?
And I find out the mostinteresting things when they
tell me, for instance, this guy,james Marquardt, he's actually
about to come on our show, chris.
We were going to be doing alive show together, but our our
(03:28):
schedules just aren't adding up.
So we are going to be doing uma podcast with him soon, but I
read his book unthinkable.
So he actually has worked inlaw enforcement a long time, but
he ends up buying a house infrisco, texas, chris, that a
killer owned and he doesn't knowthat a killer owned the house.
Do you not have to disclose?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
that.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
So not in the state of.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Texas.
You're in real estate, right?
Is that a thing?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
I also don't think in New Mexico you have to disclose
it either, because she gave mea report on a house and it did
say you do not have to discloseit Only if somebody dies, I
guess maybe in the house.
Maybe in the house, right?
No, the only way you have todisclose it is if it was caused
by a defect in the home.
Oh, interesting.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So all these haunted houses in Texas?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah, that we don't even know are haunted.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
It could be a selling point, though for some people,
yes, it could.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Actually, if I was a realtor, that's what I would do.
I would only sell scary places.
See how my market is.
Do you think my market would begood for that?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I don't know, you might just see.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
All right, so this one is unthinkable.
So he buys a house in FriscoTexas.
He doesn't know that a killerowned this house until he gets
invited to a barbecue in theneighborhood.
He goes to a barbecue.
The neighbors are asking himand his wife how are you
enjoying the house?
Are you enjoying the house?
So what do you think about whathappened in front of that house
?
And they're like what in theworld is everybody asking us
(04:50):
this for?
And they tell him well, a guywent to Indiana, killed his
grandmother for estate money andthen drove back here to Frisco
Texas and was arrested in frontof his house.
So this book just kind of fellin his lap, this case just sort
of fell in his lap.
So this will be a good one.
He's going to come on the showthe Last man.
Did we pass Cisco Texas on theway here?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I believe we did, didn't we?
Well, we went left instead ofright.
We saw a sign that said Cisco,all right.
So this was we were on ConradHilton, huffing On the way to.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Cisco.
So this is the last man.
Thomas Goodman wrote this.
He was.
This happened in Cisco.
This was more like a bankrobbery, bank heist.
So they called it the SantaClaus bank robber.
So he dressed up as Santa.
He went in with a group ofpeople.
They end up fleeing.
It's this whole thing thathappens in Cisco.
(05:48):
But we interviewed this authorin Cisco at at the hilton museum
, which was really cool, theoriginal hilton yeah, that was
hilton's first hotel, which isnow a museum.
So, um, if you've never beenand took a visit, you should.
So this is the last man umrobert story.
So I had steven me show.
Uh, we, he's been on our show acouple of times so so he did
Robert's Story, which is about acowboy who was very wealthy.
(06:09):
He didn't really realize howwealthy his family was.
He was kind of a loner.
He starts to get a little older.
People start dying in hisfamily.
He acquires more money, moreassets, and really this book is
about trusting people who thenstole his money, trusting people
who then stole his moneyLawyers, accountants, people he
trusted in his circle.
So he talks about a Texascowboy's troubled life and
(06:33):
horrifying death.
So, stephen Misho if you don'tknow who he is, he actually did
the Bundy tapes.
So he got into the jail inFlorida.
In fact I think he actuallytold me he is not allowed back
in the state of Florida.
He got in like some majortrouble right, because he was
able to interview Bundy bytelling the jail that he was a
(06:54):
part of the defense team.
So that's how he was in.
He talked to Bundy, I believe,for three straight months and
then ended up in therapy for ayear after talking to Ted Bundy.
So he's going to come on Chrisand talk about the Bundy tapes,
but he is originally from Texasand he wrote Robert's story, all
right.
So this one is this Night WoundsTime.
(07:16):
This is about two girls thatdisappear not far from where
Chris and I are from, and thisis back in the mid 80s.
It was spring break actuallyending going into the Monday of
school starting.
And these two girls, their car,is found just down the street
from where Chris and I live now,but there has been absolutely
no answer of what happened tothese two girls.
(07:38):
Their cars found the jukebox isthe beatbox.
What they call boom box was inthe back seat with their jackets
covering it.
Jam box.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Doors are locked.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
No blood at the car, no keys found.
It was a bright yellow Mustang,so it stuck out um, stuck out,
stuck out, stuck out, stook,stook out Um so it stuck out,
but um unfortunately, stookStook out, so it stuck out, but
unfortunately and this happenedin Carrollton, texas.
So this is Stacy Madison andSusan Smalley.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Still unsolved.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Still unsolved.
Any Lubbock, Texas Tech peoplehere out of the four?
No, All right, All right, ohyeah, Okay, Sorry, Bad question.
I should have read the room onthat one.
I should have read the room onthat one.
He's incognito today, I guess.
All right.
So fatal exam.
(08:29):
This actually happened in theschool, so in the university,
the night before they have thisbig Christmas display of lights
that they do every year, andthis happened the day before
that event.
So people still went to theevent, had no idea what had just
happened, steps away from themcelebrating the Christmas
holiday.
But a woman janitor wasactually murdered in a building
(08:51):
in Texas Tech and they wereprofiling, looking for someone
that they end up not findingactually did this.
This was actually done by astudent who broke into a
professor's office to stealanswers to a test.
Who broke into a professor'soffice to steal answers to a
test and he ended up absolutelyannihilating this woman for just
catching him.
So he's eventually caught intrial, but this happened outside
(09:17):
of Lubbock.
I've told people about this bookthat have gone to Texas Tech
and they've never, ever heard ofthis case.
The building is still there.
So this is a good one.
And then the other one isWelcome to the Jungle the Curse
of Clark Texas.
So I interviewed a guy who wasfrom Clark and there was this
span of horrible accidentssuicides, murders.
(09:39):
There was a gentleman that wascaptured and abducted in South
Padre.
He was also from Clark HighSchool.
So it is about this time inClark, Texas, where bad things
are happening and like the wholetown is suffering because of
all of these tragedies occurring.
So he wrote an entire book onthe curse of Clark Texas.
(10:01):
So feel free to come up here,take a peek at these books.
If you have any questions aboutthese cases, I can fill you in.
Hi, welcome.
There's stickers up here.
Feel free to come in and ifyou've got questions, let's have
an interactive discussion,because we've got a smaller
group today.
So I think that's please let usknow, Stop us if you've got
some questions.
All right, hon, you ready tojump in?
(10:29):
Absolutely All right, let's dothis, All right.
So the first case we're goingto talk about is the unsolved
murder of Jimmy Schuessler.
So this is back in, Chris, in2000, October of 2001.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
So coming up on the 24 years.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, 24 years of this case being unsolved.
So here's what we know.
At the time of his death, he isat his house.
So here's what we know.
At the time of his death, he isat his house.
He is believed to have diedfrom a blunt force blow to the
head and they found bloodoutside the house.
They found blood inside of thehouse.
(10:57):
They actually foundfingerprints, they actually
found DNA, but unfortunatelythey haven't been able to find
you know who did this?
So I watched an interview withsome of his family members that
I was able to find, and onething because when you have
unsolved cases, the hardest partabout this doing this is, most
of the time police will not giveyou anything.
(11:18):
I can get a FOIA, but theyusually block, mark everything
out and then send it to me.
So what I decided to do wasjust try to find some people
here in Mason that maybe knew alittle bit about this or connect
with them and follow someFacebook stuff, and then I
actually found an interview thatwas done with his daughter and
his brother.
So what we know now, chris,about Jimmy is that he had
(11:40):
different, he was involved indifferent businesses from what
his family says and his brothersaid some people really liked
him and some people really didnot like him.
So you get this feeling from thefamily.
His daughter has come out andsaid he was an alcoholic.
He drank a lot.
In fact she had been alienatedfrom him for about a year at the
(12:00):
time of his death.
So they had not spoken in overa year and you could definitely
tell in this interview that shewas a bit choked up.
And you know when this kind ofthing happens and you've got
turmoil or just bad energy inthe family.
You know there's a lot ofregret.
Sometimes that comes with thatright and then something like
this happens to your dad.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Did he have no beefs with any local people?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Well.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Like you say, he's well liked by some and not so
well liked, so I'm sure it's dueto his business dealing.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Right.
So, um, according to what Ihave and what I've read and from
the interviews, he was, um, hedid good business dealings and
then he did bad businessdealings and I don't you know.
What we don't know is what, whowere all the kind of people
that he was associating with,and if he and if he was involved
(12:50):
in different businesses in thearea.
So we don't have to just assumeeverybody he knew is from this
area, but his family had beenhere for like 120 years in Mason
, in Mason.
So the house where thishappened was not like a house
where I would be just drivingdown the street and I'd be able
(13:11):
to see it.
I would have to like know whereit's located, be able to access
the road to get there.
So they actually believe he metsomeone at the house that day,
so not a random.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
You would have to know exactly where the house
that day, like not a random, youwould have to know exactly
where the house is.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Yeah, and I think that's why investigators and
police believe that this was notsome random attack.
This was someone who went outthere to meet him.
So one question I would havefor police is did he normally do
any kind of business dealingsfrom his house?
Like is it normal for people tocome and see him for business
(13:50):
reasons at his home?
Did he open it up for that?
Or was this someone who knewwhere he lived?
Like you said, someone localknows the family, knows where
he's located, knows how to findhim, and then an altercation
happens.
But they based on theirinvestigation, because sometimes
(14:13):
people can fall down we knowJimmy.
So this is what happens heenters the house after he's hit.
They believe actually thealtercation started at the end
of his truck in the front of thehouse.
So they see a blood trail thatgoes into the home.
They find blood in the bathroom.
So they think he actually wentin the bathroom to clean himself
up.
And then they find the bloodtrail that goes from the
(14:34):
bathroom to the living roombecause eventually he's found on
the couch and he had bled todeath on the couch.
So he had a wound that was amortal wound but he wasn't
treating it.
So we know alcohol can inhibityour bleeding, which is why they
tell you don't drink before yougo get a tattoo.
So was he bleeding moreextensively because?
(14:56):
And was he intoxicated andthat's why he didn't know how
badly enough he was injured toactually call for help?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Well, they always say to a head injury don't fall
asleep as well.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, and I think that's what you want to do.
You want to lay down you don'tfeel good, you have a headache,
maybe you're dizzy, and so mythought about this, though.
So my first instinct of whenthey said they followed the
blood trail yeah, if the personwho did this wanted him dead,
did they know that he wouldeventually die?
(15:27):
Because I don't think policebelieve that this actually moved
into the home as an altercation.
They believe he was actuallyhit and the altercation was
outside.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Or if somebody had an altercation, wasn't going there
to kill him, but this fightensued.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Like you, said, said and he wandered inside after the
fight right.
so that has me wondering did theperson actually go there to do
this?
Because that's the first thingI thought was maybe this wasn't
intended for him to die, butthey hit him hard enough with
whatever object enough for himto walk off, go into the
(16:05):
bathroom.
I mean, we've covered caseswhere people walk off after
being hit and immediately you goafter them as the perpetrator
because you don't want them tolive, and tell them and give
your name, but they don'tbelieve this person actually
follows him into the house.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
And no weapon was found either at the site.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
No, no weapon was actually found on the ground.
What was found on the groundand what led them to believe he
actually got back in the houseand laid on the couch was his
blood trails.
So that was kind of my, becausewhen you have unsolved cases
you kind of have to go withtheory.
So, statistically, this wasdone by someone he knows and I
do believe that, based on wherethis location was, where the
(16:45):
house is, how investigators said, it's very hard to find unless
you know where it is that thisperson either was supposed to be
meeting him there or went to gothere to confront him about
something.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Followed him from the bar.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Followed him from the bar and that was another thing
too I couldn't find any.
Followed him from the bar, andthat was another thing too.
I couldn't find any.
And, by the way, I was tellingJeannie this, that when you come
to towns like Mason and youtalk about things like this, I
feel like the people know a lotmore than we would ever know.
So if there's something youwant to share, something you
want to say, please feel free.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
You're looking for the Mason TMZ.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
You know, I'm just saying Rumor mill is a thing,
and and and small towns andfamilies know each other and
there is like, hey, this, let metell you what else happened to
my brother that other peopledon't know.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
that's not in the news, that's not you know well
that, um when at um longhornsellers, that one girl happened
to be in the audience, who'ssister.
Remember the?
Speaker 1 (17:48):
case.
Yeah, no, I don't know if thecat I don't remember she had
some different insight, though,on the case.
I can't remember the two SanAntonio girls, the two unsolved
San Antonio murders.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
They lived around there at that time, and so they
had a little better insight,heidi.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah, no-transcript.
(18:30):
And his brother says I reallyhope it's not someone we know.
Well, it's probably not adrifter, they're not going to
probably find this location,it's probably someone that you
know.
I have to wonder if policeactually started looking into
what kind of records he kept forhis business, what they could
(18:51):
actually uncover looking throughhis records, if he kept any
kind of date books or peoplethat he was supposed to be
meeting with.
I can only assume he didn'thave anything like that written
down as of that day day.
So was this like a plan thing?
Because if he was organized, ifhe did keep good, good records
on his and on his businessdealings, then maybe they would
(19:11):
have been able to find out whohe saw that day.
But again, I couldn't findanything about.
Yes, he was supposed to meetthis person here, but but didn't
, or that person's not involved,um, so he bled to death to like
said, it could have beenanybody, for that matter.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
So, but like you, with it being the house,
location and whatnot potentiallynot a random person just
driving by and deciding well andyou get.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
You get mad and people have things in their hand
.
I am not convinced.
It was just some weapon thatwas just picked up and used.
It could have been the butt ofa gun.
It could have been a reactivepicking up something and just
hitting someone over the headwith it because you don't know
what kind of injury they'regoing to sustain.
This happens in bars andparking lots all the time.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Confrontations and you punch somebody.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I mean it could have been anything but I, but I, I
want, I don't know like I'm notconvinced that someone would
just let someone walk.
He could have gone in the houseand called 9-1-1 immediately,
right, but you're gonna let himgo back inside, but then he
bleeds to death.
So are you a medicalprofessional and you know that
he's not going to survive this?
So you're just going to leave,or do you?
(20:27):
Not want to leave your DNAinside, so you don't go in.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
He hit him and knocked him out and drove away,
and then he got up from theground and then wandered inside
too.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, I mean, we don't know what happened.
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
That's what I wonder too, since he was.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, it could have been nothing to do with his
business, right?
It could have nothing to dowith his, that's right.
You're like, oh shit, and youtake off.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, we justcovered a case not that long ago
.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
I lean more towards that theory.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
He's at the bar drinking and somebody follows
him there, or just say, maybespatting something and saying
something to someone that you'renot supposed to say, and then
you get followed.
I mean, people just don't payattention to that when you're
leaving a bar and you're goinghome of who could be following
you.
But this is an unsolved case,and does anybody else know
anything about this case or wantto share?
(21:19):
I wonder if there are anyadditional tips.
I want to think that the familyprobably might know a little
more.
Maybe they have an idea.
I mean, it's been almost 24years, so we definitely don't
have the.
I don't even think there's beenanyone named as a suspect,
maybe like a person of interestthat they've interviewed, but I
(21:40):
couldn't find that there wereactually any actual suspects
that were named in this case.
But yeah, so that is JimmySchuessler's story.
If there's anything you want toshare with us off the
microphones, please do.
Okay.
So I want to jump into Chris,let's see.
All right, I'm going to doAdele Kaufman.
(22:02):
We're going to go way back,1892.
Going way back, going way back.
We're going to actually do thisone on our podcast because I
found this case.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
This might be a little hard for that Mason TMZ
to get some information on.
It is 1892.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
It was.
Yeah, I could not find a ton ofinformation, but I did find
enough for us to have a veryinteresting theoretical
conversation around thisunsolved case.
So it's 1892, which meansthere's a whole lot of things
that come into play that don'texist today Lack of evidence,
lack of forensics, women'srights, how people viewed women
(22:41):
and young women.
So there's a lot of things thatyou have to kind of take into
the thought of when you're kindof theorizing and trying to
solve these cases.
It's 1892.
The person who did this isclearly deceased, you think?
Yeah, I think so, Unless theywere just on like the news of
the 125th birthday.
(23:01):
It might be them, but I doubtit.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Guinness Book.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah, all right, birthday might be them, but I
doubt it.
Getting this book?
Yeah, all right.
So adele kaufman was 17 yearsold when she was found brutally
murdered on the side of the roadby her father, joseph kaufman,
in 1892.
So she had a mom, she had twobrothers and two sisters.
So, um, adele, she was kind ofdescribed as very being, very
bright.
She attended school, you, youknow I thought about this when I
(23:28):
was researching this case of,like, our kids nowadays who are
like, picked up in carpool.
Right, yeah, you get to gosometimes to carpool and then
they're picked up in carpool orthey take a bus, but nobody
walks the dog has better thancarpool actually.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, yeah, you give me one of those.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
But so she went to east comanche school.
Does anybody know if thatschool is still there?
It's not okay.
Thank you, I was curious aboutthat.
All right, see, I come here foranswers.
I mean, she's 17 years old,right?
Well, she walks to and fromschool and Three miles.
(24:14):
Three miles.
I thought to myself could youimagine if we asked our
11-year-old to walk three milesanywhere, Anywhere?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I was going to say uphill, but it lays in the snow
Anywhere.
I just want to ask my11-year-old to go get her own
glass of water.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah, I mean to the kitchen, would be great.
That's a start, right, that's astart.
To the kitchen.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
All right, get those legs working.
Girl, get those legs working.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
So that is a long walk, okay, but it's 1892.
We talked about this.
What's transportation look likein 1892?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
It's the wagon and your feet right, you're walking,
you're walking, you're huffingit.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
All right, okay.
So the roads and her directionto home was very rocky.
There was like woods.
So, her father, there wasanother house, the Wilson house,
the Wilson family.
It's about an exact mile fromthe Wilson house to the Kaufman
(25:09):
house, so that her fatherbasically put this little paved
um, not paved cause there's nopavement, but it's what did they
call it?
Like a, like a pathway.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, like kind of basically went out the brush and
included Right.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
So she wouldn't have to like walk through all the
woods and the trees.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
It kind of just was a straight shot from the Wilson
home, where they had childrentoo, because we're going to talk
about them to the house.
Ok, sounds spoiled for 1892.
She had her own path clearedfor herself.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah, she did.
I mean, well, I mean that islike the sad thing, because her
dad found her and he's the onewho put this path for her and
you know how all that goes.
So, ok, so the Wilson house is.
So we're going to talk aboutthe Wilson house and then the
Kaufman.
So remember, those are exactlyone mile, but three miles from
school.
So it's a Friday.
(25:55):
This happens on a Friday andAdele Kaufman leaves school, so
she makes her way to the Wilsonhome because she walks home with
the Wilson kids.
So they have kids, they allwalk together and this is the
last place she has seen.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
You got to think too what time do those kids get home
and to school?
You have to leave two hours.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Yes, she actually you did, she did not.
She left the Wilson house abouta quarter after five.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
That is what you would get out of school.
At what?
Three or something?
And think about that.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah, all right.
So it's Friday and, um, shesays goodbye, the students get
out, she walks home with theWilson kids and then she stops
at the Wilson house.
So Mrs Wilson saw her will thentell Mr Kaufman eventually that
she was there, she was seen.
So it is one mile from theWilson home to the Kaufman home
(26:50):
on that direct path.
So she leaves that house abouta quarter after five and heads
to her house.
Well, it starts to get darkoutside and her dad is getting a
little concerned.
Now his first thought is maybeshe stayed at the Wilson's house
because sometimes she would dothat and then walk to school,
(27:12):
but that's, it's a Friday, sothere's no school next day.
So he kind of dismisses that abit in his head and then maybe
just thinks that she's you know,I think he's just trying to
think positive thoughts at thispoint and think of where she
could be and not really what hashappened.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Well, you got to think too.
Time frame wise, you justexpect your child home by
sundown.
I guess that's right.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
And he said that she was not the kind of person to
just go off and not tell themwhere she was going, ask for
permission.
So she was a pretty involvedkid and I think they just he
starts to think about thesethings.
So she doesn't show up bydinner and he decides that he's
going to go look for her.
(27:56):
So he goes outside but he can'tsee a thing.
It's very dark.
He realizes very quickly thathe isn't going to be able to see
her or find her if she is outhere in the woods and on the
path.
So he decides to go back insideand wait until morning.
So he gets up and he, um, hegets up and he starts walking
(28:22):
down this path and he finds her.
I'm going to say she's probablymore laying on her side than
face down.
She's laying on her side, sheis actually where.
So, where the path is, there'slike a little bit of a hill and
on that top of the hill was likewhere it was cleared, so you
didn't see a lot of there wasnot a lot of woods and not a lot
of brush, it was just more of aclear um, and the ground was
(28:45):
hard and that's where he foundher.
So it was.
She was kind of coming overChris.
It was exactly halfway from theWilson house to the Kaufman
house, so she had made it a halfmile from the Wilson's Um and
then something, and then andthen this occurred.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
You wonder too, though.
I mean, like why not get alantern or something and go,
because I mean there's noflashlights, obviously.
But something to that effect toat least go out and try to hunt
for her.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
How did I know you were going to ask me that?
I'm just wondering.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
I can just say, oh, it's dark, I'll wait till the
morning.
I mean like so I think he did.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I think he did, but I think.
So what I researched it was avery cloudy, overcast night,
yeah, okay, and there was very,very low visibility, probably
even with a lantern, and maybehe's just, I don't know.
Maybe he doesn't want to findwhat he thinks he might find.
You know, we never know whatpeople are thinking.
(29:39):
He just figured this is Ibetter look for her in the
morning.
He probably felt like he couldhave a better search and maybe
part of him was hoping she wouldjust walk in the door, right,
maybe?
So so he finds her.
She has her bonnet basicallyover her face, so it looks like
(30:00):
someone covered her face with itand she is clearly deceased.
He runs to the Wilson house andtells Mr Wilson what he's found
and this is 1892.
So you have.
You have police, sheriff.
I'm not sure what they were.
Was it sheriffs?
They were sheriffs.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Probably a sheriff.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Sheriff?
Yeah, I would think.
So the sheriff comes out,neighbors come out, they are
going to where she's found,right the scene.
And I also think back in 1892,I don't, I mean, you probably
like what do you call itClearing the crime scene was
probably not as easy andefficient as it is today.
(30:43):
You probably just tell peopleto back up.
But people were like going outthere and looking around and you
know, it spread very quicklythat this young girl had been
found on the path.
So they quickly realized peoplecome forward and actually said
they heard five gunshots.
Okay, the gunshots actuallycame after she would have left
(31:04):
the Wilson home.
So, immediately, without reallyobserving the body, they
thought and, by the way, thesewere boys that the Wilsons knew
they were actually had just lefttheir house, so and they were
hunting or you know, firing gunI mean, it's 1892, right.
So they actually thought thatshe had, that she had probably
(31:27):
got hit by a stray bullet andthat she died.
But then, when they Huh, whatare the odds?
Speaker 2 (31:32):
I know.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
I mean, oh my God, there is a wild case in Texas
about the odds of that, butwe'll have to cover that one in
Texas about the odds of that,but we'll have to cover that one
.
So they quickly realized, oncethey remove her bonnet, that she
had five gaping head wounds,that I mean.
They described it as lookinglike mush and jelly, her entire.
(31:55):
Okay, this girl is 17 years old.
Okay, and because, again, thisis unsolved, oops, excuse me.
This is unsolved.
So when we have unsolved casesand you have no information from
the police because you can'tget it, then you kind of have to
go under the assumption of whatcould possibly have happened.
So they do an examination onher.
(32:18):
They did not find that she hadany sort of defensive wounds.
They also did not find that shehad been assaulted.
They said her dress, what shewas wearing, did not look like
it had been disturbed.
It almost looks like she justfell down in this area and died.
There's really no scuffle.
(32:40):
Uh, there's nothing really.
They can find nothing to saythat there was like kind of an
emotive or, or I mean, we knowthere was an altercation and
we'll talk about that, but um,of why, why this happened.
There's just really nothing inthe area.
So once they, um, once theykind of look around the scene,
(33:01):
they find things.
Okay.
So they find the murder weapon.
The murder weapon is a largestone and they also found where
the stone came from.
So it came from one direction,because they found the
indentions of the dirt with thestone where somebody had picked
it up, brought it over there,hit her with it and then
actually, when they werefinished, they threw it in like
brush.
So they find it with blood allover it.
(33:23):
So they know it's the murderweapon and it clearly matches
the wounds.
So that's one of the, butreally that's it, like there was
really nothing else that wasthere, until they go a little
bit further and they find a fewinteresting things.
They realize that a horse hashad to have been tied to a tree
(33:45):
or tied up for at least an hourto two hours, based on the hoof
indentions into the mud and dirt, based on the hair of the horse
that was actually found on thefence line, that they were like
scratching themselves.
So they actually found thehorse hair.
They find the indentions in themud and you know what they also
(34:07):
find.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
They also find blood in like the little water and
stream, as though somebody hadwashed their hands with blood on
them you wonder what the markstoo, if they were be able to
tell if there were actualhorseshoes on those versus not
being to you know at that timethere still were Native
(34:29):
Americans here.
We're still kind of, you know,causing some troubles, and so to
me that would also be kind oftelling.
To within the foot, within thehorse, yeah, hoof steps.
I guess you'll say that'sinteresting.
That would also be kind oftelling too, within the foot,
within the horse?
Yeah, hoof steps, I guessyou'll say that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
I didn't even think about that.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Now that is typically , I would say, the name
obviously probably not gonnahave a horseshoes on their horse
.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yeah versus uh that's true versus pale face, yeah,
yeah so by so they findeverything she had her books,
her shawl, her bonnet, herclothes.
There's nothing that has beentaken off of her um or that's
missing um, so it basically endsthere.
(35:11):
There's really no leads thatcome in.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
There's nobody who says they saw anything well,
like the, with the horse beingtied.
That was something like said,lying in wait, or yeah, so let's
talk about that.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
So that that's.
That is what happened to Adele.
Um, she's bludgeoned to death,five head wounds, killed with a
stone.
She's 17 years old, she's.
It's a Friday, she's leftschool, okay.
So let's take, let's talk abouttheory, because I told you what
I think on my on the the wayhere, and so you go back.
It's 1892.
Women were not treated as fairlyas they should have been, right
(35:47):
?
So you have, and let's talkabout statistically, right,
statistically, somebody is goingto do that to you that knows
you rather than not know you.
But that person had to know.
By the way, this was also not avery visible area.
You had to go through the woods, there was forest.
(36:09):
So I first thought a passer, apasser through person ties their
horse up.
Maybe their horse is drinkingfrom the water, maybe they're
just stopping to rest.
And then they see a pretty17-year-old walking down a path.
And it was a crime ofopportunity and they were trying
(36:33):
to sexually assault her and itdid not go well.
And so she doesn't scream orgive a name or run to anyone.
They kill her, they hit her inthe head with a stone.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Well, you wonder, why use a stone though?
Because I would say the typicalperson that's out on their
horse riding around at that timein 1892 probably has a sidearm,
perhaps a rifle, even a knife,but why use a stone?
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Because to me they did not have a weapon.
Because you use that whenyou've got nothing else.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
I'm saying most people that would be out riding
in that type of terrain.
Everybody probably walkedaround with a sidearm or at
least a knife of some sort oreven a rifle.
I mean, you didn't typicallyhop on your horse unless you
were armed, I would think forthe average person and you and
forensics and DNA and all ofthat wasn't even a thing.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
But that kind of leads me back to.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
was it, was it um of who may be responsible?
So was it somebody who was outthere that um?
You know, like I said, wasn'tuh person or something like that
, the horse tied up and just theweapon of choice that was used,
versus somebody that had aknife or something?
I mean, the knife would be muchmore Okay.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Much quicker way to dispatch of her.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
If there was a midst of a struggle or a fight versus
somebody going and grabbing astone or something, or Is that
on your satchel?
Speaker 1 (37:54):
That's on your horse?
Speaker 2 (37:56):
A stone.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
No, your weapon.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Your knife.
Well, I mean, you've seen-.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Don't you keep it on the side of the horses though?
No, In the little satchel thingno.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
You have a sheath and then you know it's 1892, I'm
just saying, like, a lot ofpeople carried a sidearm or at
least a rifle or something likethat.
So I just thought that was.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Right.
So they either didn't haveanything else with them as a
weapon.
And here's the thing.
Do they even know that thishorse had anything to do with it
?
I don't know.
They know that there was bloodin the water from what they
believe was washing of the hands.
They didn't try to clean, theyjust threw the stone.
You know, but to me you'relooking for something to use.
(38:35):
So I think this person did nothave something on them and if
they did, they left it by thehorse and there wasn't enough
time to go run over there.
She would have.
She would have, you know, runor tried to escape.
And also, you're half a mile inbetween two houses.
So she didn't scream, not thatanybody heard.
And then I thought to myselfcould you hear me screaming a
(38:59):
half a mile away?
Speaker 2 (39:01):
that depend which way the wind was blowing, I guess.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
I thought about that too, like did she actually
scream when this was happeningto her, or did she not?
Speaker 2 (39:15):
and well, I would say most homes are probably pretty
far away from one another.
Wasn't a lot of population?
Speaker 1 (39:23):
and you're in the woods, so there's a lot of trees
and stuff.
We can actually down the sound,right, yeah, yeah, so, um, okay
, so I think whether it was okay.
So let's talk about the othertheory.
The other theory is somebodywas waiting for her because they
knew how she walked home.
So we talked about this too.
You don't have a car to hurryup and get there before she does
, right, so you two are walkingor by carriage, and so so then
(39:49):
you would, or you didn't, gopath and then you attack her.
But then to me, if you'rewaiting on her, then you have a
weapon.
If your intention is to do harm, then you come with the
(40:13):
intention to do harm.
That's why, to me, the rock isan opportunity.
She's walking on a path in thewoods, there's a horse that they
know was tied up.
They see the blood in the water.
I mean, I just personally thinkthat this was a crime of
opportunity, which is maybe whyit was so difficult to solve,
(40:36):
and that everyone that lived inthe area I'm sure they
questioned most people thatlived in the area and this
happens in such a short amountof time and space, from where
she's last seen to where she'sgoing, and so to me everything
kind of shows a little bit ofunpreparedness that this person
(40:58):
ends up needing to kill her whenthey realize they're not going
to be able to take advantage ofher.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
Well, and you even mentioned the path that her
father cleared.
I mean, it's very similar tothe previous case that who would
, who would know about that path.
So it would have to be kind ofa total, random, opportunistic
act.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Or you know about the path because you're a friend or
you've been to their housebefore, or you've been to the
Wilson's house, because that wasa big thing too, the Wilson.
They had children and otherkids were very familiar with the
area, like I said, the boys whohad shot the guns in the area.
So you know they see each otherand they know who each other is
(41:36):
.
You know they see each otherand they know who each other.
You know who they are.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Just seems, though, like I said once again, if
somebody was trying to sexuallyassault her or whatever, that
she would want to threaten herwith some sort of a weapon like
just I mean, you're not going tocome out, so maybe just bare
hands or try to snatch her andtake her.
And of course the struggleensues and um, oh, and that's
what I mean.
The murder weapon is what's so?
(41:59):
Just unusual choice for me.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Yeah, it is an unusual choice, but again, I
think it's just a weapon ofopportunity.
And then I think she was justpossibly a victim of opportunity
.
But you know she could havetaken off running.
I mean that's another thing Ithought about, because she ended
up going over the hill.
You know she could have takenoff running.
I mean that's another thing Ithought about, cause she ended
up going over the hill, you know, or almost over that hill, to
(42:24):
where the flat is, and it wasopen and exposed.
It wasn't covered by trees, itwasn't covered by brush, like
the rest of the area was.
It was more in an open space.
So why would the person chooseto do it right there, where
somebody could visibly see her,if they were just walking a
little bit looking for her orpossibly see what's going on?
Speaker 2 (42:43):
but they don't.
Or if she saw somebody toowalking on the path did that
time period was it typical tojust carry on say hello as you
pass, or did you avoid any sortof people?
Sure, you know what I mean.
So did somebody spring out andget her, or was it just kind of
like, like I said, they pass.
Oh hello, good morning or goodafternoon for this matter?
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
And then that person chose to take it another
direction.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Well, like you said, this is a, this is 1892.
So you're not throwing them inyour car right To kidnap them.
So at them.
So you're, you're attacking heron a path.
So you're just either angry andwant to murder someone or you
have have then come upon a girl,a young girl, that you want to
take advantage of and it's notgoing well and maybe, maybe at
(43:35):
this point, maybe she isscreaming, maybe the rock was to
to keep her quiet, because itwas like, okay, now I got to
find something, you know, or Imean, who knows, she could have
been screaming.
I don't know why she wouldn'thave, or even tried to, but you
know, they basically just saidthat the way the rock was found,
it looked like they did whatthey needed to do through the
(43:55):
rock and the brush and then left.
So again, this is 1892.
It is still unsolved, but veryinteresting, very interesting
case.
And gosh, how many cases havewe covered when girls are just
steps away from their house orjust a very short ways away, and
(44:17):
something like this happenseven today?
No doubt.
All right, so that is the caseof Adele Kaufman, thank you.
All right.
Well, I am Brandy Diamond.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
And I'm Chris Diamond .
Speaker 1 (00:22):
And we are Texas Wine and True Crime.
We work with Texas wineries.
They send us wine, we pair themwith dishes, we talk a little
bit of true crime.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
We talk a lot of true crime.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
We talk a lot of true crime Something kind of fun.
Before we get started, I'mgoing to talk a little bit about
some authors we've interviewedand books, if you guys like to
read, or you can just look themup online and read about them,
or, yeah, just read about thecases, but I'll talk about these
in just a second.
So we've got some stickers.
(00:54):
We do this all over Texas, sothank you, robert Clay, for
having us.
This is actually going to beour last live show for this
season, so we're happy to closeit out here with our friends and
mason podcast podcasting seasonis coming to an end podcast,
live podcasting, not regularpodcasting.
No, we're going to be doingwe're actually going to be
(01:15):
implementing some video.
Our youtube is now up, um, soyou're going to see a lot more
of our faces on social media.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yes, there's lots of audio on youtube.
However, our faces have beensomewhat Obscured for the past
four and a half years.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah, but we have 162 episodes out there, so if you
want to listen, please listen.
Do you have anything to sharebefore we get started?
We have no other live showscoming up, so this is it.
Follow us.
We're going to be doing morevideo.
Here's some stickers Take.
We're going to be doing morevideo.
Here's some stickers.
Take some to a friend.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Well, I would like to say I'm very happy to come to
Robert Clay Vineyards again.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I am so happy.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
We really enjoyed our first time here.
I really enjoyed talking toeverybody and just the knowledge
that was shared with us andjust delicious wines as well
that were shared.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
We've got one more right.
We've got one more red thatwe're going to be putting on
next week's episode.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yep, the Toriga, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
We've got one more, so we've been enjoying their
wine the whole month of March.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I will need to figure out something to pair with that
.
Yes, you will that wine as well.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Okay, so we're actually going to be talking
about some cases right out herein Mason.
So we are going to start withwe're going to do a couple of
unsolved cases and then we'regoing to talk a little bit about
the Hoodoo Wars.
I'm going to let Chris leadthat one.
He's got some good informationabout the Hoodoo Wars and then
(02:46):
we're going to have a guestjoining us, the DA from right
here in Mason, tanya.
She is going to be joining usto talk about the arson that
happened at the courthouse andwhatever came of that case,
because I do believe it justclosed and sentencing was done
not that long ago.
So she'll be here to kind oftalk about the trial and what
went on with that case.
All right, so we're going tostart.
Let me let me start real quick,chris, before we jump into
Jimmy Schuessler, because that'swho we're going to start with.
So I want to just give just abrief thing about these books.
I don't sell these books.
You can find them on Amazon.
(03:06):
I had a lady come and borrowone.
I know her, so I let her borrowit, but these are really just
if you like to read.
I love interviewing authorsbecause I always like to know
why did you choose this case?
And I find out the mostinteresting things when they
tell me, for instance, this guy,james Marquardt, he's actually
about to come on our show, chris.
We were going to be doing alive show together, but our our
(03:28):
schedules just aren't adding up.
So we are going to be doing uma podcast with him soon, but I
read his book unthinkable.
So he actually has worked inlaw enforcement a long time, but
he ends up buying a house infrisco, texas, chris, that a
killer owned and he doesn't knowthat a killer owned the house.
Do you not have to disclose?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
that.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
So not in the state of.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Texas.
You're in real estate, right?
Is that a thing?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
I also don't think in New Mexico you have to disclose
it either, because she gave mea report on a house and it did
say you do not have to discloseit Only if somebody dies, I
guess maybe in the house.
Maybe in the house, right?
No, the only way you have todisclose it is if it was caused
by a defect in the home.
Oh, interesting.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So all these haunted houses in Texas?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah, that we don't even know are haunted.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
It could be a selling point, though for some people,
yes, it could.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Actually, if I was a realtor, that's what I would do.
I would only sell scary places.
See how my market is.
Do you think my market would begood for that?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I don't know, you might just see.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
All right, so this one is unthinkable.
So he buys a house in FriscoTexas.
He doesn't know that a killerowned this house until he gets
invited to a barbecue in theneighborhood.
He goes to a barbecue.
The neighbors are asking himand his wife how are you
enjoying the house?
Are you enjoying the house?
So what do you think about whathappened in front of that house
?
And they're like what in theworld is everybody asking us
(04:50):
this for?
And they tell him well, a guywent to Indiana, killed his
grandmother for estate money andthen drove back here to Frisco
Texas and was arrested in frontof his house.
So this book just kind of fellin his lap, this case just sort
of fell in his lap.
So this will be a good one.
He's going to come on the showthe Last man.
Did we pass Cisco Texas on theway here?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I believe we did, didn't we?
Well, we went left instead ofright.
We saw a sign that said Cisco,all right.
So this was we were on ConradHilton, huffing On the way to.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Cisco.
So this is the last man.
Thomas Goodman wrote this.
He was.
This happened in Cisco.
This was more like a bankrobbery, bank heist.
So they called it the SantaClaus bank robber.
So he dressed up as Santa.
He went in with a group ofpeople.
They end up fleeing.
It's this whole thing thathappens in Cisco.
(05:48):
But we interviewed this authorin Cisco at at the hilton museum
, which was really cool, theoriginal hilton yeah, that was
hilton's first hotel, which isnow a museum.
So, um, if you've never beenand took a visit, you should.
So this is the last man umrobert story.
So I had steven me show.
Uh, we, he's been on our show acouple of times so so he did
Robert's Story, which is about acowboy who was very wealthy.
(06:09):
He didn't really realize howwealthy his family was.
He was kind of a loner.
He starts to get a little older.
People start dying in hisfamily.
He acquires more money, moreassets, and really this book is
about trusting people who thenstole his money, trusting people
who then stole his moneyLawyers, accountants, people he
trusted in his circle.
So he talks about a Texascowboy's troubled life and
(06:33):
horrifying death.
So, stephen Misho if you don'tknow who he is, he actually did
the Bundy tapes.
So he got into the jail inFlorida.
In fact I think he actuallytold me he is not allowed back
in the state of Florida.
He got in like some majortrouble right, because he was
able to interview Bundy bytelling the jail that he was a
(06:54):
part of the defense team.
So that's how he was in.
He talked to Bundy, I believe,for three straight months and
then ended up in therapy for ayear after talking to Ted Bundy.
So he's going to come on Chrisand talk about the Bundy tapes,
but he is originally from Texasand he wrote Robert's story, all
right.
So this one is this Night WoundsTime.
(07:16):
This is about two girls thatdisappear not far from where
Chris and I are from, and thisis back in the mid 80s.
It was spring break actuallyending going into the Monday of
school starting.
And these two girls, their car,is found just down the street
from where Chris and I live now,but there has been absolutely
no answer of what happened tothese two girls.
(07:38):
Their cars found the jukebox isthe beatbox.
What they call boom box was inthe back seat with their jackets
covering it.
Jam box.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Doors are locked.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
No blood at the car, no keys found.
It was a bright yellow Mustang,so it stuck out um, stuck out,
stuck out, stuck out, stook,stook out Um so it stuck out,
but um unfortunately, stookStook out, so it stuck out, but
unfortunately and this happenedin Carrollton, texas.
So this is Stacy Madison andSusan Smalley.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Still unsolved.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Still unsolved.
Any Lubbock, Texas Tech peoplehere out of the four?
No, All right, All right, ohyeah, Okay, Sorry, Bad question.
I should have read the room onthat one.
I should have read the room onthat one.
He's incognito today, I guess.
All right.
So fatal exam.
(08:29):
This actually happened in theschool, so in the university,
the night before they have thisbig Christmas display of lights
that they do every year, andthis happened the day before
that event.
So people still went to theevent, had no idea what had just
happened, steps away from themcelebrating the Christmas
holiday.
But a woman janitor wasactually murdered in a building
(08:51):
in Texas Tech and they wereprofiling, looking for someone
that they end up not findingactually did this.
This was actually done by astudent who broke into a
professor's office to stealanswers to a test.
Who broke into a professor'soffice to steal answers to a
test and he ended up absolutelyannihilating this woman for just
catching him.
So he's eventually caught intrial, but this happened outside
(09:17):
of Lubbock.
I've told people about this bookthat have gone to Texas Tech
and they've never, ever heard ofthis case.
The building is still there.
So this is a good one.
And then the other one isWelcome to the Jungle the Curse
of Clark Texas.
So I interviewed a guy who wasfrom Clark and there was this
span of horrible accidentssuicides, murders.
(09:39):
There was a gentleman that wascaptured and abducted in South
Padre.
He was also from Clark HighSchool.
So it is about this time inClark, Texas, where bad things
are happening and like the wholetown is suffering because of
all of these tragedies occurring.
So he wrote an entire book onthe curse of Clark Texas.
(10:01):
So feel free to come up here,take a peek at these books.
If you have any questions aboutthese cases, I can fill you in.
Hi, welcome.
There's stickers up here.
Feel free to come in and ifyou've got questions, let's have
an interactive discussion,because we've got a smaller
group today.
So I think that's please let usknow, Stop us if you've got
some questions.
All right, hon, you ready tojump in?
(10:29):
Absolutely All right, let's dothis, All right.
So the first case we're goingto talk about is the unsolved
murder of Jimmy Schuessler.
So this is back in, Chris, in2000, October of 2001.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
So coming up on the 24 years.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, 24 years of this case being unsolved.
So here's what we know.
At the time of his death, he isat his house.
So here's what we know.
At the time of his death, he isat his house.
He is believed to have diedfrom a blunt force blow to the
head and they found bloodoutside the house.
They found blood inside of thehouse.
(10:57):
They actually foundfingerprints, they actually
found DNA, but unfortunatelythey haven't been able to find
you know who did this?
So I watched an interview withsome of his family members that
I was able to find, and onething because when you have
unsolved cases, the hardest partabout this doing this is, most
of the time police will not giveyou anything.
(11:18):
I can get a FOIA, but theyusually block, mark everything
out and then send it to me.
So what I decided to do wasjust try to find some people
here in Mason that maybe knew alittle bit about this or connect
with them and follow someFacebook stuff, and then I
actually found an interview thatwas done with his daughter and
his brother.
So what we know now, chris,about Jimmy is that he had
(11:40):
different, he was involved indifferent businesses from what
his family says and his brothersaid some people really liked
him and some people really didnot like him.
So you get this feeling from thefamily.
His daughter has come out andsaid he was an alcoholic.
He drank a lot.
In fact she had been alienatedfrom him for about a year at the
(12:00):
time of his death.
So they had not spoken in overa year and you could definitely
tell in this interview that shewas a bit choked up.
And you know when this kind ofthing happens and you've got
turmoil or just bad energy inthe family.
You know there's a lot ofregret.
Sometimes that comes with thatright and then something like
this happens to your dad.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Did he have no beefs with any local people?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Well.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Like you say, he's well liked by some and not so
well liked, so I'm sure it's dueto his business dealing.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Right.
So, um, according to what Ihave and what I've read and from
the interviews, he was, um, hedid good business dealings and
then he did bad businessdealings and I don't you know.
What we don't know is what, whowere all the kind of people
that he was associating with,and if he and if he was involved
(12:50):
in different businesses in thearea.
So we don't have to just assumeeverybody he knew is from this
area, but his family had beenhere for like 120 years in Mason
, in Mason.
So the house where thishappened was not like a house
where I would be just drivingdown the street and I'd be able
(13:11):
to see it.
I would have to like know whereit's located, be able to access
the road to get there.
So they actually believe he metsomeone at the house that day,
so not a random.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
You would have to know exactly where the house
that day, like not a random, youwould have to know exactly
where the house is.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Yeah, and I think that's why investigators and
police believe that this was notsome random attack.
This was someone who went outthere to meet him.
So one question I would havefor police is did he normally do
any kind of business dealingsfrom his house?
Like is it normal for people tocome and see him for business
(13:50):
reasons at his home?
Did he open it up for that?
Or was this someone who knewwhere he lived?
Like you said, someone localknows the family, knows where
he's located, knows how to findhim, and then an altercation
happens.
But they based on theirinvestigation, because sometimes
(14:13):
people can fall down we knowJimmy.
So this is what happens heenters the house after he's hit.
They believe actually thealtercation started at the end
of his truck in the front of thehouse.
So they see a blood trail thatgoes into the home.
They find blood in the bathroom.
So they think he actually wentin the bathroom to clean himself
up.
And then they find the bloodtrail that goes from the
(14:34):
bathroom to the living roombecause eventually he's found on
the couch and he had bled todeath on the couch.
So he had a wound that was amortal wound but he wasn't
treating it.
So we know alcohol can inhibityour bleeding, which is why they
tell you don't drink before yougo get a tattoo.
So was he bleeding moreextensively because?
(14:56):
And was he intoxicated andthat's why he didn't know how
badly enough he was injured toactually call for help?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Well, they always say to a head injury don't fall
asleep as well.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, and I think that's what you want to do.
You want to lay down you don'tfeel good, you have a headache,
maybe you're dizzy, and so mythought about this, though.
So my first instinct of whenthey said they followed the
blood trail yeah, if the personwho did this wanted him dead,
did they know that he wouldeventually die?
(15:27):
Because I don't think policebelieve that this actually moved
into the home as an altercation.
They believe he was actuallyhit and the altercation was
outside.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Or if somebody had an altercation, wasn't going there
to kill him, but this fightensued.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Like you, said, said and he wandered inside after the
fight right.
so that has me wondering did theperson actually go there to do
this?
Because that's the first thingI thought was maybe this wasn't
intended for him to die, butthey hit him hard enough with
whatever object enough for himto walk off, go into the
(16:05):
bathroom.
I mean, we've covered caseswhere people walk off after
being hit and immediately you goafter them as the perpetrator
because you don't want them tolive, and tell them and give
your name, but they don'tbelieve this person actually
follows him into the house.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
And no weapon was found either at the site.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
No, no weapon was actually found on the ground.
What was found on the groundand what led them to believe he
actually got back in the houseand laid on the couch was his
blood trails.
So that was kind of my, becausewhen you have unsolved cases
you kind of have to go withtheory.
So, statistically, this wasdone by someone he knows and I
do believe that, based on wherethis location was, where the
(16:45):
house is, how investigators said, it's very hard to find unless
you know where it is that thisperson either was supposed to be
meeting him there or went to gothere to confront him about
something.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Followed him from the bar.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Followed him from the bar and that was another thing
too I couldn't find any.
Followed him from the bar, andthat was another thing too.
I couldn't find any.
And, by the way, I was tellingJeannie this, that when you come
to towns like Mason and youtalk about things like this, I
feel like the people know a lotmore than we would ever know.
So if there's something youwant to share, something you
want to say, please feel free.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
You're looking for the Mason TMZ.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
You know, I'm just saying Rumor mill is a thing,
and and and small towns andfamilies know each other and
there is like, hey, this, let metell you what else happened to
my brother that other peopledon't know.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
that's not in the news, that's not you know well
that, um when at um longhornsellers, that one girl happened
to be in the audience, who'ssister.
Remember the?
Speaker 1 (17:48):
case.
Yeah, no, I don't know if thecat I don't remember she had
some different insight, though,on the case.
I can't remember the two SanAntonio girls, the two unsolved
San Antonio murders.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
They lived around there at that time, and so they
had a little better insight,heidi.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah, no-transcript.
(18:30):
And his brother says I reallyhope it's not someone we know.
Well, it's probably not adrifter, they're not going to
probably find this location,it's probably someone that you
know.
I have to wonder if policeactually started looking into
what kind of records he kept forhis business, what they could
(18:51):
actually uncover looking throughhis records, if he kept any
kind of date books or peoplethat he was supposed to be
meeting with.
I can only assume he didn'thave anything like that written
down as of that day day.
So was this like a plan thing?
Because if he was organized, ifhe did keep good, good records
on his and on his businessdealings, then maybe they would
(19:11):
have been able to find out whohe saw that day.
But again, I couldn't findanything about.
Yes, he was supposed to meetthis person here, but but didn't
, or that person's not involved,um, so he bled to death to like
said, it could have beenanybody, for that matter.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
So, but like you, with it being the house,
location and whatnot potentiallynot a random person just
driving by and deciding well andyou get.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
You get mad and people have things in their hand
.
I am not convinced.
It was just some weapon thatwas just picked up and used.
It could have been the butt ofa gun.
It could have been a reactivepicking up something and just
hitting someone over the headwith it because you don't know
what kind of injury they'regoing to sustain.
This happens in bars andparking lots all the time.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Confrontations and you punch somebody.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I mean it could have been anything but I, but I, I
want, I don't know like I'm notconvinced that someone would
just let someone walk.
He could have gone in the houseand called 9-1-1 immediately,
right, but you're gonna let himgo back inside, but then he
bleeds to death.
So are you a medicalprofessional and you know that
he's not going to survive this?
So you're just going to leave,or do you?
(20:27):
Not want to leave your DNAinside, so you don't go in.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
He hit him and knocked him out and drove away,
and then he got up from theground and then wandered inside
too.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, I mean, we don't know what happened.
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
That's what I wonder too, since he was.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, it could have been nothing to do with his
business, right?
It could have nothing to dowith his, that's right.
You're like, oh shit, and youtake off.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, we justcovered a case not that long ago
.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
I lean more towards that theory.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
He's at the bar drinking and somebody follows
him there, or just say, maybespatting something and saying
something to someone that you'renot supposed to say, and then
you get followed.
I mean, people just don't payattention to that when you're
leaving a bar and you're goinghome of who could be following
you.
But this is an unsolved case,and does anybody else know
anything about this case or wantto share?
(21:19):
I wonder if there are anyadditional tips.
I want to think that the familyprobably might know a little
more.
Maybe they have an idea.
I mean, it's been almost 24years, so we definitely don't
have the.
I don't even think there's beenanyone named as a suspect,
maybe like a person of interestthat they've interviewed, but I
(21:40):
couldn't find that there wereactually any actual suspects
that were named in this case.
But yeah, so that is JimmySchuessler's story.
If there's anything you want toshare with us off the
microphones, please do.
Okay.
So I want to jump into Chris,let's see.
All right, I'm going to doAdele Kaufman.
(22:02):
We're going to go way back,1892.
Going way back, going way back.
We're going to actually do thisone on our podcast because I
found this case.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
This might be a little hard for that Mason TMZ
to get some information on.
It is 1892.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
It was.
Yeah, I could not find a ton ofinformation, but I did find
enough for us to have a veryinteresting theoretical
conversation around thisunsolved case.
So it's 1892, which meansthere's a whole lot of things
that come into play that don'texist today Lack of evidence,
lack of forensics, women'srights, how people viewed women
(22:41):
and young women.
So there's a lot of things thatyou have to kind of take into
the thought of when you're kindof theorizing and trying to
solve these cases.
It's 1892.
The person who did this isclearly deceased, you think?
Yeah, I think so, Unless theywere just on like the news of
the 125th birthday.
(23:01):
It might be them, but I doubtit.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Guinness Book.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah, all right, birthday might be them, but I
doubt it.
Getting this book?
Yeah, all right.
So adele kaufman was 17 yearsold when she was found brutally
murdered on the side of the roadby her father, joseph kaufman,
in 1892.
So she had a mom, she had twobrothers and two sisters.
So, um, adele, she was kind ofdescribed as very being, very
bright.
She attended school, you, youknow I thought about this when I
(23:28):
was researching this case of,like, our kids nowadays who are
like, picked up in carpool.
Right, yeah, you get to gosometimes to carpool and then
they're picked up in carpool orthey take a bus, but nobody
walks the dog has better thancarpool actually.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, yeah, you give me one of those.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
But so she went to east comanche school.
Does anybody know if thatschool is still there?
It's not okay.
Thank you, I was curious aboutthat.
All right, see, I come here foranswers.
I mean, she's 17 years old,right?
Well, she walks to and fromschool and Three miles.
(24:14):
Three miles.
I thought to myself could youimagine if we asked our
11-year-old to walk three milesanywhere, Anywhere?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I was going to say uphill, but it lays in the snow
Anywhere.
I just want to ask my11-year-old to go get her own
glass of water.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah, I mean to the kitchen, would be great.
That's a start, right, that's astart.
To the kitchen.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
All right, get those legs working.
Girl, get those legs working.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
So that is a long walk, okay, but it's 1892.
We talked about this.
What's transportation look likein 1892?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
It's the wagon and your feet right, you're walking,
you're walking, you're huffingit.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
All right, okay.
So the roads and her directionto home was very rocky.
There was like woods.
So, her father, there wasanother house, the Wilson house,
the Wilson family.
It's about an exact mile fromthe Wilson house to the Kaufman
(25:09):
house, so that her fatherbasically put this little paved
um, not paved cause there's nopavement, but it's what did they
call it?
Like a, like a pathway.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, like kind of basically went out the brush and
included Right.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
So she wouldn't have to like walk through all the
woods and the trees.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
It kind of just was a straight shot from the Wilson
home, where they had childrentoo, because we're going to talk
about them to the house.
Ok, sounds spoiled for 1892.
She had her own path clearedfor herself.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah, she did.
I mean, well, I mean that islike the sad thing, because her
dad found her and he's the onewho put this path for her and
you know how all that goes.
So, ok, so the Wilson house is.
So we're going to talk aboutthe Wilson house and then the
Kaufman.
So remember, those are exactlyone mile, but three miles from
school.
So it's a Friday.
(25:55):
This happens on a Friday andAdele Kaufman leaves school, so
she makes her way to the Wilsonhome because she walks home with
the Wilson kids.
So they have kids, they allwalk together and this is the
last place she has seen.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
You got to think too what time do those kids get home
and to school?
You have to leave two hours.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Yes, she actually you did, she did not.
She left the Wilson house abouta quarter after five.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
That is what you would get out of school.
At what?
Three or something?
And think about that.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah, all right.
So it's Friday and, um, shesays goodbye, the students get
out, she walks home with theWilson kids and then she stops
at the Wilson house.
So Mrs Wilson saw her will thentell Mr Kaufman eventually that
she was there, she was seen.
So it is one mile from theWilson home to the Kaufman home
(26:50):
on that direct path.
So she leaves that house abouta quarter after five and heads
to her house.
Well, it starts to get darkoutside and her dad is getting a
little concerned.
Now his first thought is maybeshe stayed at the Wilson's house
because sometimes she would dothat and then walk to school,
(27:12):
but that's, it's a Friday, sothere's no school next day.
So he kind of dismisses that abit in his head and then maybe
just thinks that she's you know,I think he's just trying to
think positive thoughts at thispoint and think of where she
could be and not really what hashappened.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Well, you got to think too.
Time frame wise, you justexpect your child home by
sundown.
I guess that's right.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
And he said that she was not the kind of person to
just go off and not tell themwhere she was going, ask for
permission.
So she was a pretty involvedkid and I think they just he
starts to think about thesethings.
So she doesn't show up bydinner and he decides that he's
going to go look for her.
(27:56):
So he goes outside but he can'tsee a thing.
It's very dark.
He realizes very quickly thathe isn't going to be able to see
her or find her if she is outhere in the woods and on the
path.
So he decides to go back insideand wait until morning.
So he gets up and he, um, hegets up and he starts walking
(28:22):
down this path and he finds her.
I'm going to say she's probablymore laying on her side than
face down.
She's laying on her side, sheis actually where.
So, where the path is, there'slike a little bit of a hill and
on that top of the hill was likewhere it was cleared, so you
didn't see a lot of there wasnot a lot of woods and not a lot
of brush, it was just more of aclear um, and the ground was
(28:45):
hard and that's where he foundher.
So it was.
She was kind of coming overChris.
It was exactly halfway from theWilson house to the Kaufman
house, so she had made it a halfmile from the Wilson's Um and
then something, and then andthen this occurred.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
You wonder too, though.
I mean, like why not get alantern or something and go,
because I mean there's noflashlights, obviously.
But something to that effect toat least go out and try to hunt
for her.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
How did I know you were going to ask me that?
I'm just wondering.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
I can just say, oh, it's dark, I'll wait till the
morning.
I mean like so I think he did.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I think he did, but I think.
So what I researched it was avery cloudy, overcast night,
yeah, okay, and there was very,very low visibility, probably
even with a lantern, and maybehe's just, I don't know.
Maybe he doesn't want to findwhat he thinks he might find.
You know, we never know whatpeople are thinking.
(29:39):
He just figured this is Ibetter look for her in the
morning.
He probably felt like he couldhave a better search and maybe
part of him was hoping she wouldjust walk in the door, right,
maybe?
So so he finds her.
She has her bonnet basicallyover her face, so it looks like
(30:00):
someone covered her face with itand she is clearly deceased.
He runs to the Wilson house andtells Mr Wilson what he's found
and this is 1892.
So you have.
You have police, sheriff.
I'm not sure what they were.
Was it sheriffs?
They were sheriffs.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Probably a sheriff.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Sheriff?
Yeah, I would think.
So the sheriff comes out,neighbors come out, they are
going to where she's found,right the scene.
And I also think back in 1892,I don't, I mean, you probably
like what do you call itClearing the crime scene was
probably not as easy andefficient as it is today.
(30:43):
You probably just tell peopleto back up.
But people were like going outthere and looking around and you
know, it spread very quicklythat this young girl had been
found on the path.
So they quickly realized peoplecome forward and actually said
they heard five gunshots.
Okay, the gunshots actuallycame after she would have left
(31:04):
the Wilson home.
So, immediately, without reallyobserving the body, they
thought and, by the way, thesewere boys that the Wilsons knew
they were actually had just lefttheir house, so and they were
hunting or you know, firing gunI mean, it's 1892, right.
So they actually thought thatshe had, that she had probably
(31:27):
got hit by a stray bullet andthat she died.
But then, when they Huh, whatare the odds?
Speaker 2 (31:32):
I know.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
I mean, oh my God, there is a wild case in Texas
about the odds of that, butwe'll have to cover that one in
Texas about the odds of that,but we'll have to cover that one
.
So they quickly realized, oncethey remove her bonnet, that she
had five gaping head wounds,that I mean.
They described it as lookinglike mush and jelly, her entire.
(31:55):
Okay, this girl is 17 years old.
Okay, and because, again, thisis unsolved, oops, excuse me.
This is unsolved.
So when we have unsolved casesand you have no information from
the police because you can'tget it, then you kind of have to
go under the assumption of whatcould possibly have happened.
So they do an examination onher.
(32:18):
They did not find that she hadany sort of defensive wounds.
They also did not find that shehad been assaulted.
They said her dress, what shewas wearing, did not look like
it had been disturbed.
It almost looks like she justfell down in this area and died.
There's really no scuffle.
(32:40):
Uh, there's nothing really.
They can find nothing to saythat there was like kind of an
emotive or, or I mean, we knowthere was an altercation and
we'll talk about that, but um,of why, why this happened.
There's just really nothing inthe area.
So once they, um, once theykind of look around the scene,
(33:01):
they find things.
Okay.
So they find the murder weapon.
The murder weapon is a largestone and they also found where
the stone came from.
So it came from one direction,because they found the
indentions of the dirt with thestone where somebody had picked
it up, brought it over there,hit her with it and then
actually, when they werefinished, they threw it in like
brush.
So they find it with blood allover it.
(33:23):
So they know it's the murderweapon and it clearly matches
the wounds.
So that's one of the, butreally that's it, like there was
really nothing else that wasthere, until they go a little
bit further and they find a fewinteresting things.
They realize that a horse hashad to have been tied to a tree
(33:45):
or tied up for at least an hourto two hours, based on the hoof
indentions into the mud and dirt, based on the hair of the horse
that was actually found on thefence line, that they were like
scratching themselves.
So they actually found thehorse hair.
They find the indentions in themud and you know what they also
(34:07):
find.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
They also find blood in like the little water and
stream, as though somebody hadwashed their hands with blood on
them you wonder what the markstoo, if they were be able to
tell if there were actualhorseshoes on those versus not
being to you know at that timethere still were Native
(34:29):
Americans here.
We're still kind of, you know,causing some troubles, and so to
me that would also be kind oftelling.
To within the foot, within thehorse, yeah, hoof steps.
I guess you'll say that'sinteresting.
That would also be kind oftelling too, within the foot,
within the horse?
Yeah, hoof steps, I guessyou'll say that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
I didn't even think about that.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Now that is typically , I would say, the name
obviously probably not gonnahave a horseshoes on their horse
.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yeah versus uh that's true versus pale face, yeah,
yeah so by so they findeverything she had her books,
her shawl, her bonnet, herclothes.
There's nothing that has beentaken off of her um or that's
missing um, so it basically endsthere.
(35:11):
There's really no leads thatcome in.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
There's nobody who says they saw anything well,
like the, with the horse beingtied.
That was something like said,lying in wait, or yeah, so let's
talk about that.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
So that that's.
That is what happened to Adele.
Um, she's bludgeoned to death,five head wounds, killed with a
stone.
She's 17 years old, she's.
It's a Friday, she's leftschool, okay.
So let's take, let's talk abouttheory, because I told you what
I think on my on the the wayhere, and so you go back.
It's 1892.
Women were not treated as fairlyas they should have been, right
(35:47):
?
So you have, and let's talkabout statistically, right,
statistically, somebody is goingto do that to you that knows
you rather than not know you.
But that person had to know.
By the way, this was also not avery visible area.
You had to go through the woods, there was forest.
(36:09):
So I first thought a passer, apasser through person ties their
horse up.
Maybe their horse is drinkingfrom the water, maybe they're
just stopping to rest.
And then they see a pretty17-year-old walking down a path.
And it was a crime ofopportunity and they were trying
(36:33):
to sexually assault her and itdid not go well.
And so she doesn't scream orgive a name or run to anyone.
They kill her, they hit her inthe head with a stone.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Well, you wonder, why use a stone though?
Because I would say the typicalperson that's out on their
horse riding around at that timein 1892 probably has a sidearm,
perhaps a rifle, even a knife,but why use a stone?
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Because to me they did not have a weapon.
Because you use that whenyou've got nothing else.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
I'm saying most people that would be out riding
in that type of terrain.
Everybody probably walkedaround with a sidearm or at
least a knife of some sort oreven a rifle.
I mean, you didn't typicallyhop on your horse unless you
were armed, I would think forthe average person and you and
forensics and DNA and all ofthat wasn't even a thing.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
But that kind of leads me back to.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
was it, was it um of who may be responsible?
So was it somebody who was outthere that um?
You know, like I said, wasn'tuh person or something like that
, the horse tied up and just theweapon of choice that was used,
versus somebody that had aknife or something?
I mean, the knife would be muchmore Okay.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Much quicker way to dispatch of her.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
If there was a midst of a struggle or a fight versus
somebody going and grabbing astone or something, or Is that
on your satchel?
Speaker 1 (37:54):
That's on your horse?
Speaker 2 (37:56):
A stone.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
No, your weapon.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Your knife.
Well, I mean, you've seen-.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Don't you keep it on the side of the horses though?
No, In the little satchel thingno.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
You have a sheath and then you know it's 1892, I'm
just saying, like, a lot ofpeople carried a sidearm or at
least a rifle or something likethat.
So I just thought that was.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Right.
So they either didn't haveanything else with them as a
weapon.
And here's the thing.
Do they even know that thishorse had anything to do with it
?
I don't know.
They know that there was bloodin the water from what they
believe was washing of the hands.
They didn't try to clean, theyjust threw the stone.
You know, but to me you'relooking for something to use.
(38:35):
So I think this person did nothave something on them and if
they did, they left it by thehorse and there wasn't enough
time to go run over there.
She would have.
She would have, you know, runor tried to escape.
And also, you're half a mile inbetween two houses.
So she didn't scream, not thatanybody heard.
And then I thought to myselfcould you hear me screaming a
(38:59):
half a mile away?
Speaker 2 (39:01):
that depend which way the wind was blowing, I guess.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
I thought about that too, like did she actually
scream when this was happeningto her, or did she not?
Speaker 2 (39:15):
and well, I would say most homes are probably pretty
far away from one another.
Wasn't a lot of population?
Speaker 1 (39:23):
and you're in the woods, so there's a lot of trees
and stuff.
We can actually down the sound,right, yeah, yeah, so, um, okay
, so I think whether it was okay.
So let's talk about the othertheory.
The other theory is somebodywas waiting for her because they
knew how she walked home.
So we talked about this too.
You don't have a car to hurryup and get there before she does
, right, so you two are walkingor by carriage, and so so then
(39:49):
you would, or you didn't, gopath and then you attack her.
But then to me, if you'rewaiting on her, then you have a
weapon.
If your intention is to do harm, then you come with the
(40:13):
intention to do harm.
That's why, to me, the rock isan opportunity.
She's walking on a path in thewoods, there's a horse that they
know was tied up.
They see the blood in the water.
I mean, I just personally thinkthat this was a crime of
opportunity, which is maybe whyit was so difficult to solve,
(40:36):
and that everyone that lived inthe area I'm sure they
questioned most people thatlived in the area and this
happens in such a short amountof time and space, from where
she's last seen to where she'sgoing, and so to me everything
kind of shows a little bit ofunpreparedness that this person
(40:58):
ends up needing to kill her whenthey realize they're not going
to be able to take advantage ofher.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
Well, and you even mentioned the path that her
father cleared.
I mean, it's very similar tothe previous case that who would
, who would know about that path.
So it would have to be kind ofa total, random, opportunistic
act.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Or you know about the path because you're a friend or
you've been to their housebefore, or you've been to the
Wilson's house, because that wasa big thing too, the Wilson.
They had children and otherkids were very familiar with the
area, like I said, the boys whohad shot the guns in the area.
So you know they see each otherand they know who each other is
(41:36):
.
You know they see each otherand they know who each other.
You know who they are.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Just seems, though, like I said once again, if
somebody was trying to sexuallyassault her or whatever, that
she would want to threaten herwith some sort of a weapon like
just I mean, you're not going tocome out, so maybe just bare
hands or try to snatch her andtake her.
And of course the struggleensues and um, oh, and that's
what I mean.
The murder weapon is what's so?
(41:59):
Just unusual choice for me.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Yeah, it is an unusual choice, but again, I
think it's just a weapon ofopportunity.
And then I think she was justpossibly a victim of opportunity
.
But you know she could havetaken off running.
I mean that's another thing Ithought about, because she ended
up going over the hill.
You know she could have takenoff running.
I mean that's another thing Ithought about, cause she ended
up going over the hill, you know, or almost over that hill, to
(42:24):
where the flat is, and it wasopen and exposed.
It wasn't covered by trees, itwasn't covered by brush, like
the rest of the area was.
It was more in an open space.
So why would the person chooseto do it right there, where
somebody could visibly see her,if they were just walking a
little bit looking for her orpossibly see what's going on?
Speaker 2 (42:43):
but they don't.
Or if she saw somebody toowalking on the path did that
time period was it typical tojust carry on say hello as you
pass, or did you avoid any sortof people?
Sure, you know what I mean.
So did somebody spring out andget her, or was it just kind of
like, like I said, they pass.
Oh hello, good morning or goodafternoon for this matter?
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
And then that person chose to take it another
direction.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Well, like you said, this is a, this is 1892.
So you're not throwing them inyour car right To kidnap them.
So at them.
So you're, you're attacking heron a path.
So you're just either angry andwant to murder someone or you
have have then come upon a girl,a young girl, that you want to
take advantage of and it's notgoing well and maybe, maybe at
(43:35):
this point, maybe she isscreaming, maybe the rock was to
to keep her quiet, because itwas like, okay, now I got to
find something, you know, or Imean, who knows, she could have
been screaming.
I don't know why she wouldn'thave, or even tried to, but you
know, they basically just saidthat the way the rock was found,
it looked like they did whatthey needed to do through the
(43:55):
rock and the brush and then left.
So again, this is 1892.
It is still unsolved, but veryinteresting, very interesting
case.
And gosh, how many cases havewe covered when girls are just
steps away from their house orjust a very short ways away, and
(44:17):
something like this happenseven today?
No doubt.
All right, so that is the caseof Adele Kaufman, thank you.
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