Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome all of you
wine and true crime lovers.
I'm Brandi.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
And I'm Chris.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
And this is Texas
Wine and True Crime.
Thank you for being here,friends, for this week's episode
, the Lace Nightclub.
Hey Chris, hey Brandi.
So this week we are sipping ona very special treat from our
friends at Robert Clay Vineyards.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
And a very special
treat it was.
Yes, it was, and we felt so VIP,so special for getting a
beautiful blend before theyreleased it out to the public.
(00:59):
So we took it home and youpaired it with a dish for this
episode.
So tell us what?
You served up?
Very hearty, juicy wine, and soI decided to grill a big old
fat T-bone and then I topped itactually not paired it, but
topped it with a hatch chili anda walk-in cheese shrimp gratin.
And then I made some stuffedmushrooms with a walk-in cheese
and pistachios, kind of like aNew Mexico flair, I guess you
(01:19):
could say, and a little bit ofbacon on those as well.
And then we did some fire-roroasted cauliflower that I
topped with a kind of poachedgarlic and parsley olive oil.
Little mix, a very simple light.
But I felt like, along with thevery delicious wine, that the
meal also lived up to thedeliciousness of the wine.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
It might be one of my
new favorite meals that you
made.
Your topping sauce that you puton the steak was phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
It kind of came to me
in the last minute.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
It was so good, and
not only that, we had the idea
with the leftovers to put it onthe mushrooms, and I did eat
that.
It was very good.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
So the sauce, the
gratin served two purposes.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
It was delicious.
She did an amazing job on that,so thank you, thank you, thank
you for always feeding me andgiving our listeners some ideas
for their next feast.
And thank you again to RobertClay Vineyards for having us out
.
The live show was great.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, the wine was
great.
The wine was incredible.
It was truly a fantasticexperience.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
I mean we took a sip
and looked at each other like
really, I mean, it was that good, it was good.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
It was not for the
faint of heart, but I tell you
what it was.
Oh gosh, just absolutelydelicious Very strong flavors to
it.
Um, I shouldn't say not for thefaint of heart.
It was, uh, probably one of my,one of my top uh top favorite
wines I've had.
Yeah, it's good stuff, all thewines are good there, but that
one was extra special um, yes,it was, and I wonder if it's out
(03:01):
yet.
I I don't think we asked whenthey were actually going to
release it.
We got a little side bottleover there.
That was really special.
We felt really great aboutgetting that, so I'm not sure.
I know it's been sitting aroundfor a little while.
Yes, it may have tasteddelicious.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, we're holding
on to that beautiful bottle that
they hand wrote on it becausethe labels weren't even out yet,
right?
So I'm sure they're working onthat.
The other thing I want tomention, chris, is the episode I
did that Nancy Grace hosted.
The Christmas Killings is outon the Roku channel.
I did discuss the case out ofFrisco, texas, and the Christmas
(03:43):
Killings.
Obviously this is more of aholiday series.
You know, nancy Grace does alot of victim advocacy stuff, so
it's out.
So if you want to, if you watchdocumentaries and you like
watching Nancy Grace, christmasKilling I can't remember exactly
what episode I'm on I guessthat would have been helpful.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
The Roku channel
again is.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yes, it's on the Roku
channel.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yes, the actual Roku
channel.
Yeah, and the Christmas killing.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Someone else.
Chris said they saw it onShowtime.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
You just search for
it.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah, so I think it
also might be on Showtime.
Anyway pretty cool experience.
Thank you to all the productionteam that came from Canada all
the way to Texas to record thisand, yeah, what an also an honor
it was really to talk aboutthis case and the kind of dad
(04:40):
that this man lived to be, andjust unfortunate circumstances
at the holidays.
But thank you again for havingme and it's called the Christmas
Killings with Nancy Grace.
Okay, chris, are you ready tojump into this week's case?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
All right, friends,
it's time to sip some wine and
talk some crime.
The Lace Nightclub was anupscale nightclub right there,
located in Arlington, texas.
It catered, chris, tosuperstars, business executives,
athletes.
It was the place to be back inthe late 80s in the Arlington
(05:16):
area.
Now I asked you if you had everheard of this place and you
said no.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
And this was a
nightclub, not a strip club,
right?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Okay, so I was on
Reddit and I was trying to find
information about this place,because I couldn't find much in
my general search and someone onReddit described it as a strip
club where you couldn't go tojail.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
So it wasn't a
nightclub, it actually was a
strip club.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Why don't go to jail?
So it wasn't a nightclub, itactually was a strip club.
Why don't we just say, maybelingerie, I'm going to just go
out there and say that some ofthis lingerie was probably
removed at some point.
I mean, this is a very highclientele.
I kind of got the feeling whenit said a strip club where you
couldn't go to jail.
I thought maybe kind ofeverything goes kind of club
(06:07):
because of the status and wealthinside, because we're talking
about the 80s.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Well, and that's why
I wonder why go to the trouble,
even wear lingerie?
If there was that many stripclubs in Arlington I think it
was a strip club.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yes, isn't that
interesting, fun fact.
Back in the early 90s therewere 20.
It's wild.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I would say the name
alone would allude to an
establishment that there werescantily clad women present.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
So it was a nightclub
, though it was kind of
positioned as a nightclub andagain it was the place to be
seen.
So we're on Wednesday, december20th 1989.
And this is about 9, 915 am.
So we have Jennifer Burns, 24years old.
She is the accountant in theclub.
This is a young lady.
(06:53):
I think wow, what a greatposition at 21 years old to be
the accountant for thisnightclub that actually had a.
I had a like a um, a corporateheadquarters to it.
So whether it was maybe a partof an of another um, you know
company that owned multipleclubs, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Excuse me, but I know
this actually had a
headquarters.
Yeah, I think they um co-owneda G strings.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Oh really.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
No, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Okay, I'm like, what
is G-Strings?
I've never heard of that.
All right, we got Lace.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Nightclub.
So I don't know.
I thought that was interestingtoo, that there was a corporate
office.
I don't know.
I'll have to look a little moreinto the Lace Nightclub scene.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
I bet you we can.
I this morning news.
Maybe start Telegram, I canfind some.
All right, so we've got SallyFogle also there at nine o'clock
in the morning.
She is one of the hostesses,she is the face of the place.
So you go in, sally Fogle isthe first person you see and she
and Jennifer are actuallyroommates so they go to work
(07:59):
together in the morning to theLace Nightclub.
Now Clay Griffin is the daymanager.
He comes just around this sametime about 920, 930.
So they are expecting him.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Well, just one thing
to point out too.
This is what leads me tobelieve that it's not an actual,
just a nightclub, because ofthe fact of what time they're
opening during the day, that itprobably was a strip club,
because I'm thinking like uhtrue um lunchtime buffet yeah,
you're so right about that but.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
I mean you couldn't
go wrong with some of the
buffets.
I've been to one of some ofthese places no, you could
probably go wrong no, well, Imean, I'm talking about the
executive level of the food.
Is I was talking about the food?
I I cannot att I was talkingabout the food.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I cannot attest to
any of that food, so I don't
know.
I've never been to a buffet.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Well, I actually went
there for a corporate event,
which is the only reason I knowabout it, but that's anyways.
But that's where they held it.
It was kind of in a privateroom starting at 11 o'clock and
it was over at one like a quicklunch thing.
But anyways, people do go thereduring the day, and not only
that.
So this is nine o'clock in themorning, so whoever is going to
(09:15):
be the perpetrator in this,there is a leaning towards the
idea that they kind of had toknow the routine of these three
people because they weretypically there this early in
the morning.
So these two girls arrivedfirst.
Clay Griffin is kind of rightbehind them.
This is like 19,.
You know, this is like 89 iswhen they're working here.
(09:36):
I believe the club opened inlike 86 or 87.
So it's been a few years sincethis place is opened and so
they've kind of got a routine.
And in fact a part of thatroutine is connecting with the
corporate headquarters whensomething might not be right,
when you know, talks to thesetwo girls, so they immediately
(10:05):
go upstairs when they'reentering the building.
Now, upon entering the building, these two girls are approached
by a guy.
So at this point we don't thinkthey actually know who this is,
because once they go upstairsand actually go into the
building, they call thecorporate headquarters and call
(10:28):
the manager, who is a woman, andthey tell her listen, we were
coming into work, coming intothe door and a guy stopped us
and he was trying to get in.
Well, eventually Sally Foglewill tell police that the reason
she knew he was lying and thereason they didn't let him in
(10:49):
was because he said he hadtalked to the front hostess.
He had called up there becausehe left his wallet and she told
him to come the next morning.
Well, sally Fogle is the headhostess in the front and she
knows she never spoke to anyone.
So she knew immediately thisguy was trying to get in the
(11:10):
club and was lying.
So they knew something waswrong.
They let the manager know whatthey've discovered, who they've
encountered, and she assuresthem Clay's on the way.
So why don't you call Clay?
Let him know that this guy isstanding outside.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
So they do.
I wonder why they didn't callthe police instead of calling
you know the manager?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
will the manager
actually does?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I'm just saying,
though, initially, like somebody
is trying to get in there thatdoesn't belong there.
Yeah, corporate officesDefinitely not down the street.
Like I don't know, I guessthey're young too, so uh, but I
mean, like I just think, likewhat, what good could the um
corporate office have done tostop somebody from entering the
(11:53):
place?
Like just being at thatdistance, versus like calling
the police saying hey,somebody's trying to get in here
and before we open or whateveryou know you know, I think
you're right about being young.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
I think you, they
have a guy, clay griff, who's a
little older, you know, thebouncer, basically the day
manager, who's going to be ableto control the situation.
You know, maybe they justthought he would talk to him and
the guy would leave.
That's really the only thing Icause.
I thought I thought the samething.
(12:23):
That's really the only thing Icause.
I thought I thought the samething.
Um, but as soon as they callthis manager, they end up
calling Greg Griffin's house.
They are getting his voicemailright.
This is 1989.
Uh, I don't think Clay had acell phone.
So they're leaving messages onhis actual machine at home.
Um, after continuously callinghim for a few minutes, I think
(12:48):
they know by now he's probablythere, almost there, and he was.
He was actually downstairs,approaching the building,
leaving, getting out of his carwhen they were actually making
those phone calls.
So they start to hear thatsomething is not right.
They hear kind of yelling oraggressive talking coming up the
stairs and they see Clay behind.
(13:08):
Well, they see Clay being heldat gunpoint and being moved up
the stairs toward them.
So they're in like an upstairsoffice.
So everything's happeningquickly.
Chris, the perpetrator, startstelling Jennifer to load the
bags of money that are in thesafe.
Everyone is frantic and they'rejust kind of hoping this ends
(13:29):
soon.
Clay is telling him you know,you got the money.
You got the money.
Now, you know, just turn aroundand leave.
But then, after he has themoney, he tells Jennifer to
basically take off your shirt.
So he's starting to show alittle bit of force, show a
(13:51):
little bit of control in thissituation.
So she does this and then heforces all three of them down on
the ground face down.
Clay Griffin will survive thisattack and he will end up
telling police that this guymakes a statement when he asked
(14:13):
Jennifer to take off her shirt,that this is when the fun begins
.
He lays them all on the groundface down and he shoots six
times.
He hits Clay Griffin twice, hehits Sally once and he hits
Jennifer three times.
Now, when police arrive on thescene by the way, police are
(14:37):
already on their way, becausewhen Jennifer and Sally did not
call the female manager back andshe kept calling and they were
not picking up she becomesfrantic.
So she will end up tellingpolice that she made that 911
phone call.
But Clay Griffin actually comesto, he realizes Sally Fogle is
(14:58):
still alive but she's been shotin the, you know, in the head,
in the face.
But and he sees Jennifer who islaying there bleeding.
He ends up able to get to thephone, calls the police, tell
them what's happening.
I mean, they're there withinminutes.
I was actually surprised thatthis guy did not get caught in
(15:21):
this transition, because theywere quick, the police were.
They were quick, the policewere getting there quick.
So this all happens, chris, inthe matter of like.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
So he just sneaks in,
I guess from the front, like I
guess he knew they had the dooropen because he followed them
after they entered, I guessRight.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
No, no, no, he had
Clay Griffin.
He was waiting for Clay Griffindownstairs.
He tried to get in and push hisway in with the girls, but for
whatever reason he didn't forcehimself in.
They went upstairs.
They told him no, you can'tcome in here.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Maybe he was.
He never left.
I mean he was able to get inthere basically, just probably
through the front door, I wouldassume, right, I mean yeah,
wherever Clay Griffin wasentering, that's right.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, yeah, I mean
they, you know, police
immediately think this guy hasto know that someone else is
coming, because the two girls goinside and he has failed to get
to enter, right, and I don'tknow, maybe because there was
(16:20):
two of them, maybe because onecould scream, and maybe he knew
that there were people around,because there were eyewitnesses
to this, to a person exiting thebuilding, and we'll talk about
that.
So I don't know, maybe if hewas just thinking that he would
wait and that he had a weapon,because, remember, the women
(16:41):
didn't say he had a gun, theydidn't know that.
So I think when it didn't workgetting inside with them, um,
that, and then he knew ClayGriffin was coming, I feel like
that's when he kind of laid inwait, um, and just sort of, you
know, took him over and thenescorted him up the, up the
(17:02):
steps to get what he reallywanted.
So he attempts to execute allthree of them.
Chris, like I said, clay shottwice, sally, once in the head,
and Jennifer is shot three times, once in the shoulder, once in
the head and once in the arm.
Miraculously, like I said, clayand Sally are alive, but barely
.
And you know the manager hadalready called the police from
(17:27):
that corporate office, so shehad already sent help.
I mean, police go into the scene.
It is gruesome.
You have someone who has comein to rob and then you have an
execution.
Now you see this in some casesWe've covered.
I don't know if we've actuallycovered the KFC murders, but we
will.
But you see this in the KFCmurders, right, you see a
(17:48):
robbery that has been acontrolled robbery.
They have the money but theyare not willing to leave
witnesses.
And whether I'm not convincedthat this was the guy's motive
was to not leave the witnessesbecause they didn't even know.
They didn't know who he was.
We will find out that peopleknew who he was in that club,
(18:09):
but you have to wonder why hewould go to the trouble of doing
that, because that totallychanges.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
I mean he was to get
caught.
His sentence you know, versusjust robbing the joint.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
So the eyewitnesses
see who they think is actually
an ex-employee leaving the scene.
There are surveillance cameraseverywhere in this club, but the
cameras had been turned awayfrom the eyeline of where the
person would be walking throughthe building.
So they now know this personwas probably very familiar with
(18:41):
the layout of this building, heknew where the cameras were
located and was probably able tomaneuver and to be totally
undetected, because when theypulled the VHS tapes on these
recordings they saw absolutelynothing.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
When he had time too
to go and do all that.
I mean, I guess from theoutside would be different, but
in stuff on the inside, I guess,just quickly knowing the layout
of where these cameras were,and maybe completely avoiding
him.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
I mean, they said
they didn't even see him on any
tape, like not even a glimpse ofsomeone in some clothes walking
.
They, there was nothing.
They got nothing from it.
Uh, sadly, jennifer succumbedto her injuries and died at the
hospital.
Both Clay and Sally were stillin ICU.
(19:33):
They both can't speak.
They're not yet able to tellpolice what they witnessed that
morning.
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(22:09):
So the perpetrator was able toleave with $11,200 and then
$2,000 in lace funny money.
So have you ever heard of thisat a strip club?
Maybe this is just new to me,but this funny money was only
allowed to be used in lacenightclub.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
So I guess what you
do is I would assume you would
give $100 real bills and theygive you $100 in funny money,
and then that real money wouldbe distributed across the
workers.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Seems like it would
be easier just to keep the funny
money out of the whole.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
You know what, though
, but what, ooh, I don't know.
Ooh, you know what I justthought of.
What if money is stolen, orwhat if not, like in this case?
I mean like when the girls havethe money, cause it's real cash
they're holding onto whenthey're dancing, right?
But what if they have thisfunny money, because it's real
cash they're holding onto whenthey're dancing, right?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
But what if they have
this funny money which prevents
people from taking it, and thenthe club actually has the real
money?
It could be a way for, say, thedancer goes up at the end of
the night and wants to cash inher funny money for real money
and they've got two grand intheir funny money and then Lace
turns around and gives them$1,800 towards their funny money
, and then lace turns around andgives them eighteen hundred
dollars towards that funny money.
So I bet it might have beenused as a way to for the,
(23:35):
because I in 1989 um, there wasa lot more cash being thrown
around, right, um, they weren'ttaking as much, um, you know,
tax wise out of these dancerstips and whatnot.
so you know you have to pay thehouse anyway a portion of your
earnings to have the you know,the privilege of dancing there
(23:57):
and so, um, I bet that was maybea way that that was the
currency inside.
So, yeah, if you were a guy andyou came in and maybe you got
one to one for your dollar, butat the end of the night, when
the girls got paid out, you knowthey had to go cash in their
funny money.
Then whoever's doling out thecash the house mom or whomever
at the end of the night yeah, Iknow way too much about the
(24:18):
interoperations of these places.
I guess, and perhaps that was away to get their cut and be a
legitimate cut versus somebodywho's got a big old wad of cash
that makes and I'm sure it wasprobably more than $200 that
they wanted for their cut.
But I'm just saying somebody'sgot a big old lump of cash and
then they're only given like alittle bit.
I bet that was why.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
So the house mom you
mentioned that was actually
Jennifer's mother.
So she actually had a fewfamily members that helped in
this club and they all didsomething.
And you know, that's what'skind of so crazy about this case
is that family members ofJennifer knew who this was, even
(24:59):
though she didn't, because shehadn't worked there long enough.
People actually in her familyknew who this was and you have
to wonder, you know, if somebodyelse would have been there that
day.
You know they probably wouldhave recognized him.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Well, I mean, I can
see hitting him in the morning
too, because there's a lot lesspeople there.
But you also wonder at the endof the night that you know they
don't go to the bank at twoo'clock in the morning, when
this club closes.
So maybe they also knew thatthere would be a you know pretty
.
I mean 11,000 is a lot of moneyin 1989.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, $11,200 is what
.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I mean, that's a
pretty good take for a club.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Yeah, and then $2,000
.
So this is what's interestingabout this $2,000 in lease funny
money.
So this told police.
Is this person planning to comeback and use this?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
No, I bet he could
sell that to people you know you
know what was he?
Speaker 1 (25:52):
what did he?
Maybe it's just a souvenir,could be.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
No, but he could also
too, like he's got, you know, a
couple hundred bucks and funnymoney he can sell for a hundred
bucks, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yeah, I know, but
he's about he's just trying to
commit three murders.
So kind of weird that he'sgoing to go back to the place
and then sell it when they knowit was stolen.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
I think it has some
value to it.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Maybe, Maybe to him
for sure.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
For the strip club
goers.
I mean, that's a little hustle,and who knows I mean this guy
wasn't very smart anyway tobegin with for shooting the
people.
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
So there's a few
eyewitnesses in this case.
They said they saw a guy in amustache in his 30s wearing army
fatigues.
So they did a sketch of two andtwo people identify in the
lineup.
So a face lineup on paper as anex-employee that is seen
leaving the club that morning.
So this employee was fired oneweek before the robbery.
(26:52):
So we always talk abouteyewitness testimony, which is
the best evidence you can havewhen somebody actually sees this
.
You know going down.
But people do make mistakes andthey wrongly identify people.
And this person is identifiedby not only one but two people.
But Chris, they were wrong.
(27:14):
This ex-employee was clearedafter evidence showed he had a
solid alibi and there was no wayhe could.
He could have been at the clubthat morning.
So I mean, you know we talkabout eyewitness, but gosh, two
people, but they were, they werewrong.
So after Clay and Sally are inICU for a while, they start to
(27:37):
they survive this.
Okay, thankfully they dosurvive.
And this is when Sally tellsthe police that you know the man
approaches her, wants thewallet.
She knows immediately he'slying because she's the front
hostess.
He never spoke to anyone aboutcoming to pick up a wallet and
(27:58):
she said that they just hurriedinside.
They just stopped talking tohim.
They were already at the doorand they just sort of just
scurried inside.
Now Clay and Sally will providea sketch of what the man looked
like and once this hits mediaoutlets, you know a flood of
calls just start coming intopolice.
So they've now done multiplesketches which are very similar.
(28:23):
Once you have Clay and Sallygiving one, and then you have
the eyewitnesses giving one, andthen you have now people you
know calling in.
But, chris, there were four orfive different suspects in this
case.
So they looked into this andthey were matching that
composite sketch and a few ofthese were very viable and but
(28:46):
none of them panned out.
None of them panned out until aman comes forward and tells
police that an ex, basically anex coworker, um, a stockbroker
that he knows in Fort Worth,came to him later that day after
the murders and asked him toembezzle money for him.
(29:07):
Chris, that amount of money was$11,200.
Not very smart.
The man tells police what washe going to do with it.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
He basically wanted
to.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
I guess, move it
somewhere, so he wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Wash it or something
I don't know, I don't know.
I don't have all the details.
It's not like it came from abank that you would need to
clean the money or like go washit or, you know, exchange it for
other denominations notdenominations, but other, you
know, numerically coded bills.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
It's kind of a weird
move.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
I mean you got
$11,000 in clean cash taken from
a strip club.
That was probably the take fromthe night before, like
completely unrecorded.
Yeah, Very weird.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Like this guy didn't
like sit well, he goes into this
guy's house and basically thisthe guy goes to police and he's
like man, he came into my house.
He thinks I know how toembezzle money.
I actually don't know how toembezzle money, but I agreed to
do it because he startedthreatening me.
He started telling me he knewhow to find my kids, that he
(30:12):
would hurt my family.
So he gives police the name ofDavid Lee Herman.
So police immediately startlooking into Herman's background
.
They can't find a single thing.
They can't find a parkingticket, they can't find a
traffic violation, they can'tfind jaywalking.
(30:33):
They can't find anything.
He has zero record.
He's been a model citizen, he'sworking as a stockbroker.
But then you know all of thatright, all of that on face, and
they're thinking there's just noway this guy could have done
this on face.
(30:54):
And they're thinking there'sjust no way this guy could have
done this.
But then they start puttingother pieces of the puzzle
together.
One of those pieces, chris, wasthat the eyewitnesses saw a
specific kind of car leaving theclub that morning.
David Lee Herman actuallydrives that model vehicle.
They also find out he was aformer manager at the Lace
Nightclub.
They also find out he was aformer manager at the Lace
nightclub.
He worked there before Jenniferwas hired, before Clay, before
Sally.
This is why they did notrecognize him.
(31:15):
But again, sally, or Jennifer'sfamily members who were
employed before she was there,knew him.
The lady the manager lady thatwas actually working at the time
of this who police were talkingto about leads and questions
(31:36):
about the club when they calledher and told her that David Lee
Herman was considered a suspect,she didn't believe it.
She's like he was the bestmanager we ever had.
He was nice to the patrons, hewas good with the employees, one
of the kindest and most politepeople you will ever meet.
I mean, how wild is this right?
It's kind of crazy.
(31:57):
No background, no history ofviolence, no, people love him.
He's very approachable.
I mean, when Jennifer's familyfound out about him, I mean they
were shocked.
I mean they couldn't evenbelieve that the guy they knew
could have done something likethis and did he?
(32:17):
But at this point they'restarting just to put this
together and realize that thismight actually be their number
one suspect.
But now they've got a reasonfor an arrest and I feel like
they had enough evidence.
They were ready to move forwardwith this, so they actually get
an arrest warrant.
32-year-old David Lee Hermangoes into custody.
(32:39):
You know, quiet as a mouse.
He doesn't even ask why he'sbeing arrested.
They, you know they.
Just he sits down.
He says I'll cooperate, um, buthe's not saying anything else.
He's not asking any additionalquestions, but the one thing
they want to find in this casethat they did not find at the
crime scene, chris, was the gunUm.
(33:01):
They were looking for theweapon.
They did not find the weapon,um, but they were hoping, once
they got him to, you know, tothe invest into the
interrogation room and starthaving conversations with him
that maybe being nice to a niceguy will be beneficial and and
it ends up being very beneficialbecause he?
(33:25):
Um will end up telling themwhere to find this gun.
So he buried it and he ends uptelling them where it actually
is.
But he is arrested for capitalmurder and they're trying to
find out about this guy.
Why would a nice guy thateveryone liked go in broad
daylight, rob his formeremployer and then try to kill
(33:50):
three people?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Broke.
I guess Ha being in the stockbroking business maybe he got
broke.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Well, yes, there was
some financial problems.
After he left the club, heended up getting a stockbroker's
license and police think it wasthe.
You know, when you work at aplace like Lace and every night
you are surrounded by peoplewith money, people of influence,
(34:25):
people who get attention,people who can have any woman
they want because of theirassets, right, and I think he
wanted this life.
I think that police believedthat he was trying to be one of
those business executives thathe was serving in the club.
(34:45):
He was actually veryintelligent, I mean, he got his
stockbroker's license and wastrying to do well, but it just
wasn't the kind of money andkind of influence to the people
that he had catered to at thatplace, chris.
So maybe it was a little bit ofa fantasy world in his mind,
(35:06):
because his then decision is torob Lace.
Right, he felt powerful, he knewthat these people were in fear,
so he actually told police thathe he never had felt power like
that, which is why he had toldJennifer to undress.
He actually tells police hedoesn't want to talk about it.
(35:29):
He doesn't want to talk aboutwhat he had asked Jennifer to do
, which was completely, you know, take off all of her clothes
and so he just tells police likehe doesn't want to talk about
it anymore.
But he does say that him beingin charge of her, you know being
able to control the room withthe weapon, telling them all to
(35:52):
get on the ground, you knowhaving them in fear, you know
fear for their lives.
But on the outside world, chris, he's quiet as a mouse and meek
and kind of barely speaks upand is uber polite.
So it's just wild, it's justkind of interesting how people
(36:17):
can just lose it temporarily.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Yeah, and for not a
very big take.
You know, for the night Not avery big take, Definitely not a
big enough take to end a girl'slife you know, that's what I
mean, like that's notlife-changing money.
You know who knows.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
So the tip came in
from that co-worker who
basically said he was asked toembezzle the money, but this was
definitely the nail in thecoffin.
Police admitted that if theyhad not had this tip, it's
likely that this case may nothave been solved not have been
solved.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah that's still the
most bizarre thing that he
would like to say that's cleancash money that has no way of
being traced, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Well, what's also
interesting about that is what
do they say?
Like, if you have a secret andyou know, the only way for
nobody to know about it is tonot to tell one person or
something, I don't know theexact same, but it's like he
went and told someone right andthat was his demise.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
I mean it's 1989.
There's a lot of things that hecould have just paid cash for
and never would have beenrecorded.
I mean, you can't have thatkind of money and pay for
anything.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Well, he panicked
because he went to this guy
immediately after taking thismoney.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
That's what I mean.
But yeah, you take a big chunkof money out and put it towards
a house or a car and they'regoing to want to know where the
hell you got that money from.
So this long ago I mean he waslike said by all accounts
probably would have been in theclear if he had gone to this guy
.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
So because of this
tip, he is arrested, tried for
capital murder.
He pleads not guilty at trial,but the prosecution has the gun.
They have the eyewitnesses.
So the jury comes back and notjust the eyewitnesses two
survivors of this who will neverforget his face, who will never
(38:15):
forget his face.
And so jury comes back andfinds him guilty of capital
murder.
And, chris, he gets the deathpenalty for killing Jennifer
Burns in this robbery the daybefore no, the day before he is
no.
See, back in the 80s I feel likethe justice system was a lot
(38:35):
more swifter.
I'm just going to say that.
I feel like, when I look atcases from about 70 to about 94,
95, I feel like when they set adate, they abide by those dates
and he was actually only ondeath row.
Probably, let's see, I'm goingto say he was on death row.
(38:57):
Probably, let's see, I'm goingto say he was on death row less
than seven years, which is veryshort compared to some of the
people we see on death row today.
The day before he is said to beexecuted, chris, he attempts
suicide by trying to slash histhroat and wrist with a
disposable plastic razor, but hewas unsuccessful.
(39:18):
They brought him to thehospital inside of the jail and
bandaged him up.
He spent, I think, severalhours healing from this, but
they sent him right back to jail, to his cell, right back to
(39:39):
jail, to his cell and they puthim to death the very next day
by lethal injection, on April2nd 1997.
So David Lee Herman was only 39years old when he was put to
death.
But yeah, isn't it wild.
I look at this timeframe.
I need to go back in some deathpenalty cases and take a look,
because I do feel like we havemoved into this.
I don't know if the appealsprocess was any different back
(40:03):
in the 1980s.
If there are now more appeals,I would be interested to find
out about that and see if that'swhy the process for death row
takes so long now.
For death row take so long now.
I mean there's some people whoare sitting there 20, 30 years,
(40:24):
which you know.
Hey, we don't want to putanybody to death.
That's innocent.
There should be a pretty, youknow, a certain amount of time,
but cases like this they weren'twasting any time.
They knew who did this.
Clay Griffin has since moved outof Texas.
Clay Griffin has since movedout of Texas, and Sally Fogle.
She died at the age of 41.
I think she had passed awayback in 2012-ish.
(40:46):
So you know she's been gone forseveral years, but this was
just a very, you know, such awild case and really such a
well-known case at the time,with these three young people,
you know, entering anestablishment trying to do their
job in broad daylight and youknow they are robbed and you
(41:09):
know Jennifer murdered and theother two barely survived.
So, jennifer, you will never beforgotten until next time.
Friends, stay safe, have funand cheers to next time.
Cheers, thank you.