December 16, 2025 • 33 mins
Are we truly free, or are our lives already determined? How should Christians understand desire and sexuality? What do spiritual realities like ghosts actually represent? Is hell real, and if so, why does it matter?
In this episode, host Jon Delger, the Executive Pastor of the Peace Family of Churches, and Logan Bailey, the Family Pastor at Peace Church, explore these questions by examining human freedom and divine sovereignty, the role of desire in Christian ethics and marriage, the biblical understanding of spiritual beings, and the purpose of hell within the Christian account of justice and redemption.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Welcome to That's a good question, a podcast where we
answer questions about the Christian faith in plain
language. If you or someone you know has
questions, please submit them topeace Church dot CC slash
questions. Hey, welcome to That's a good
question. My name is John.
I'd like to serve as your host. I'm here with Pastor Logan.
(00:30):
Good to be here. And today we're going to talk
about a lot of really interesting questions that have
come in that are kind of all. Over the place an assortment.
An assortment of questions. This is a box of chocolates.
It's a box of chocolates, delicious chocolates.
We're going to talk about ghosts, we're going to talk
about predestination. We're going to talk about
marriage. We're going to talk about hell.
(00:53):
We're going to talk about a lot of different stuff.
It's. A crazy box of chocolates.
It should be actually. Before we get into the box
chocolates, Pastor Logan, I wantto ask you a question.
This is something I think peoplewould be very interested to
hear. You had a very interesting
interaction on Sunday. At church, you wanted me to
talk. I really.
I really do. You don't have to share all the
details. It was, I think this is one of
those things, people, I've had people stand next to me on
(01:14):
Sunday mornings and say, Pastor John, you get some interesting
questions on Sunday mornings, don't you?
And I say yeah. Yeah, it was.
We do. It was about a year ago, I got a
call from our facilities director and she said, you need
to come upstairs right now. So I came up and I, I approached
the her and the man she was talking to and she looked over
and said, oh, thank goodness. So here's a pastor, you can talk
(01:34):
to him. And I realized pretty quickly
that this man, he, he didn't really have many questions.
He just wanted to talk and, and share his thoughts.
And so some of his opinions wereabout theological disagreements.
And I then asked him follow up questions and learned that he
doesn't really have any church that he theologically agrees on.
(01:55):
And I learned that the church hewas coming from was a Mormon
church. And I was pretty blunt with him
and said, we, we love that you're here because we believe,
we preach truth and we want you to know truth.
But it sounds like you have somepretty fundamental disagreements
with us. And I, I wonder why you don't go
to the church that you have, you're closer lined with which
is the Mormon church. And he said, you know, they just
don't get it either. And this conversation concluded
(02:18):
with him saying, I've gone through, most people don't get
it. I've gone through a lot of
spiritual experiences and I've learned that I'm God.
And so I tried. To That's a pretty interesting
conversation. I tried to end the conversation
quickly and again said, I think you need to hear truth, and so
you're welcome here to hear truth, but that we have, we
(02:42):
profoundly disagree with the things you're saying about
spiritual things. But I said, can you explain what
you mean by that? And he said, I'll give you an
example. He said I was walking down the
road the other day and I found a$20 bill.
And I thought to myself, I made this happen.
I don't know how yet, but I knowthat I made this happen and that
(03:06):
was his proof that he was God tome.
I thought it might be interesting for people to hear
one of those conversations that one of their pastors, you know,
had on a Sunday morning. Yeah, pretty interesting.
So obviously somebody that we should pray for, Yep.
That we hope comes to know Jesusas Savior.
But yeah, that's, you know, whenyou wake up on Sunday morning,
(03:26):
you didn't expect somebody to come to you and say, Pastor
Logan, I believe that I am God. It's the type of heresy that you
don't expect to get. No, you didn't see that so
bluntly. Yeah.
Right. Yeah, right.
Well, and we don't want to believe in heresy, so that's why
we're do a podcast that's. Why we do this podcast, That's
why we talk about these things Yep.
We want people to trust in Jesusas savior.
(03:48):
Yes, let's. Give them some of these
questions. Yeah.
Let's hope the rest of the podcast is as interesting as
that interaction was without theheresy.
Yep, let's jump in. I think it will be.
We're going to lead off with a great one.
Here's the question. Box of chocolates opened.
What's What's the first one? The first one is, are ghosts
real? So then wait, wait, I got to
(04:10):
read the rest. They ask further, like when we
pass away, can we haunt the earth?
Or are things that people think are ghosts?
Are they just demons that are really good at?
Their job, that's a great, I mean, that's shows wisdom.
I think that's that's where I would land.
I I thought of like when people have like goals in their
(04:31):
retirement. This is like the next step of
like I have afterlife goals on haunt that, you know, I think I
think it's pretty matter of factme in scripture.
No, there is no haunting. No human soul is haunting.
I would say that's spiritual world, angels and demons kind of
thing. I think a a demon would love to
convince you of a haunting, you know?
(04:52):
Yeah, Casper the Friendly ghost.No, no go.
Angels are out and about doing things that are good, so.
So sure, sorry, we're saying no such thing as ghosts, but there
are angels and demons. If you're talking a human soul
just kind of free floating, No, no, there is no ambiguity of we
stand before the Lord and he judges us and thank, thank
(05:16):
Jesus, thank God for Jesus. Angels and demons.
Yeah, they're out and about and doing things and we're unaware.
I, I one of my favorite and we've talked about angels on
this podcast before, but one of my favorite verses about angels
is Hebrews. It's in Hebrews, but it says be
hospitable to everyone because some have entertained angels
unaware. That's right.
(05:36):
It's like, yeah, they're the spiritual world is active and
that includes both angels and demons, right?
Yeah, but no, the Bible does notsay that we get an option to
remain as a ghost on the earth or especially to haunt people.
That's no, no, yeah, no. When we when we die, we stand
before the judgement throne, like you said.
(05:56):
That's that's an important thingto realize.
And I always like saying as far as spiritual realm, spiritual
warfare goes, the greatest comfort to us is that the Holy
Spirit is with us. That should be He is the
comforter. And so it should give us comfort
that angels are protecting God'speople.
And it should give us a reasonable amount of wariness
(06:17):
that demons are active as well. But the greatest comfort is that
the Holy Spirit is with us. Yeah, no, that's always been a
thing. I've always said people ask me
about horror films sometimes andI say I cannot watch horror
films. One of the.
Reasons. It's like allowing a foot in the
door. Well, yeah.
And well, and I say specifically, one of the reasons
is I think a lot of people thinkit's OK to watch horror films
because they think, well, none of this is real.
(06:37):
But for me, I think for us as Christians, we go, well, the
demonic is real. And so to me, that's what's
terrifying about it, is just that those things, yeah, we're
talking about something that is real out there, Demons.
And Bible says think of lovely things, think of good things and
pure things and. So totally, definitely.
All right, next question. I love this question.
What is a short, easy to understand way to explain free
(07:02):
will and predestination? I've had this question more than
most questions as. A pastor, Did I ask you for a
short and easy? Way no, just the pre destination
thing, you know, and I've had some good answers to this
question. There's been moments in my life
where I thought I did a good jobanswering that, but the most,
most of the time I'm like, that's too complex and I, I
(07:25):
ruined it and I tripped on my words.
And I do, I even understand that, you know, I, I usually
walk away thinking that, but I, I, I've, I've heard it explained
really well sometimes. And I, I usually, I usually
think of this. I, I want to, I want to just
lay, lay the groundwork here andsay the Bible uses the word
predestination. And so Christians need to
believe it. What is it though?
(07:45):
And, and there's different, you know, types of different ways of
understanding it, but I would just say the Bible is
unapologetic that there is a divine, omnipotent, omniscient
agent God and he has agency and he is sovereign.
But the Bible also presents finite people who also have
(08:11):
agency. We have responsibility.
And those two things are compatible.
And so the word I think of, I think should be said more often
is I understand why people want to emphasize free will.
It's like, yeah, we have agency.The Bible says you are
responsible. But the word compatible, the
Bible doesn't explain all the philosophy and, and metaphysics
of it, but it does say that God has agency.
(08:33):
Human beings have agency and they coexist.
They they are compatible together somehow, without
detracting from our responsibility or God's
sovereignty. Right, that's a great answer.
I'll try that. I like that.
Yeah. Like you said at the beginning,
I think often I run into people and they simply ask the
question, do you believe in predestination?
Right. Or they'll say outright, they'll
(08:54):
say, I don't believe in predestination, and I'll say,
well. That's a word.
That's a Christian. Yeah, I say.
Well. You know, it's not just a
concept in the Bible that that that word is literally in the
Bible words like predestination,election.
So it's not do you believe in this?
What does it mean? How do we understand it?
Is the question. Same thing with free will.
What do you mean by that? And I just go to.
(09:14):
I mean, not quite the same thing, right?
Because free will is not a word in the Bible.
That's a great point. So why?
Yeah, so that's a that's a. So this is one of those things I
think asking for a short and easy answer to this question is
a tall order. That's a that's a lot.
So we're we're going to try to do our best here.
But this is one of those questions that is legitimately
complex. It's.
(09:35):
It's tough. Well, when it gets into like
philosophy and sure, what does it mean to have will?
And does God have two wills? Like, what is his his moral will
versus his decree in you get into some yeah, some hazy.
So, so to take so to to go alongwith what you just said about
God's sovereignty and our responsibility.
So I think a few important passages to think about.
(09:57):
The most important event to think about is the most evil
thing that's ever happened in human history, which is the
murder of the Son of God. OK.
So I think that's a great momentfor us to look at and think
about what was going on in relationship to God being in
control, but humans making decisions and being responsible
for their decisions. So Acts chapter 2 and Acts
chapter 4, two passages that talk about this in Acts chapter
(10:19):
2, Peter, the apostles preachingat Pentecost and he's talking to
a group of people in front of him at Jerusalem, Jewish people
in front of him. And he explains that the Jews,
you all are responsible for murdering the Son of God.
And he says the Romans, you know, Pontius Pilate, Herod,
these guys are responsible for murdering the Son of God.
(10:41):
And he also says that this all happened according to the
foreknowledge and predestinationof God the Father.
So he lays out both of those things at the exact same time.
He says this was God's plan. And he says the people who
killed Jesus are responsible forwhat they did were.
You going to go to another chapter?
No, I think I mean I would say Acts 4 basically reiterates the
(11:02):
same. And I would just go all of Acts.
I we, we wrote a study through Acts recently.
I've just been studying it recently a lot.
And it's, it's, it makes your jaw hit the floor.
It's just how much God's sovereignty is on full display.
It literally the Bible in Acts will literally say as many as
were appointed became believers,right.
(11:25):
You know, and like time after time, it seems like the gospel
is being snuffed out and yet thenext verse is like, and so it
spread. You know, it's like every time
Paul goes somewhere, it's like this.
It is crazy how much God is in control despite from the
(11:47):
perspective of the church being there is no control.
Satan's in control of what's going on and God's in control of
all of it. You know, I mean, James was
executed and now Peter's in lineof being executed and they're,
it's Easter and they're praying.And then Peter just miraculously
gets kicked out of, you know, gets broken out of prison.
It's like God's doing what he wants and people are doing what
(12:09):
they want. And both of those things are
happening at the same time, right?
Right. And I can imagine, so if you're
listening to this and this is kind of some new territory for
you, I can, I can imagine, I think initially people's
reaction is actually, this is a little bit troubling to them.
They're like, wait a minute, howcan that be that, you know, but
I think over time it actually becomes deeply comforting,
which, but, but it's OK, you gotto wrestle through some passages
(12:31):
of Scripture to get there. But then the important thing to
realize is you, you got to go tothe Bible.
You got to, you got to, you know, not, not just stick to
what you think makes sense or seems fair in your own mind.
You got to go to what does the Bible say?
Because I think initially we hear, well, if God planned the
murder of Jesus, Jesus down on the cross as a sacrifice for our
sins, then how can he hold the Romans and the Jews responsible
(12:54):
for what they did? How is he not the author of Sin
right? Yeah, that's the wow.
That's, that's what it ultimately gets to, right?
That's the, that's a huge question.
Yeah. But what we have to say is,
well, the Bible holds up both ofthese things.
God was sovereign, but humans were also.
Responsible. Unapologetically.
Yeah, Yeah. It's very clear about that.
And so, yeah, I also always saidthat I think it's, I think the
(13:18):
question about free will isn't so much the question.
We actually jump a step further to the responsibility question.
Yeah. Yeah.
And it would be wrong to belittle God's sovereignty or to
belittle our responsibility, right?
Yeah, the Bible is is not wanting us to belittle either of
those things. I think of the reason it's a
comfort is because there's a reason Christians believe
(13:38):
everything happens for a reason that God, God is working
together all things for good. Like we can.
We believe that That's a that's why it's a comfort.
We have reason to believe that. We don't just say it.
Yeah, yeah. So that's Romans 828.
Yeah. We know that God works all
things for the good of those wholove Him and are called
according to His purpose. So if God isn't in control of
everything, then that verse can't really be true.
(14:00):
And it can't be true that everything happens for a reason
that there's like, and that's like, that's more of like a
sensational way of saying it. Romans 828 is the biblical way
of saying it. But like, if God is not
sovereign, then it he you have to believe that he's like
limited his divinity in some wayand then you get into some, you
know, wonky waters that you don't want to get.
(14:20):
Into well, let's play that out just for a minute
philosophically, because I thinkit's important just to like
think through the live alternatives, right?
If you're, if you're saying, well, I don't like the idea of,
of that of, of God being that incontrol.
Well, let's think about the livealternatives.
So if if God, if God's sovereignty can be thwarted by
human quote UN quote free will, then what can God do?
(14:44):
And is he really God if he can'tstop you, control you?
I mean, one of the questions that I've asked you before is I
said, OK, so you believe that. Let me let me you know, have you
ever prayed that God would keep you safe on your drive home from
church or from work or whatever?OK, but do you believe that God
could overcome the will of the driver coming at you?
(15:08):
Because if you don't believe that God can overcome their
will, then why are you even praying that he would do so?
That's all a contradiction in and of itself, you know, So you
can't. It's actually a pretty scary
world to live in, I think, if you believe that God can't
overcome somebody's choices, somebody's will.
Or work through it. Sure, yeah.
(15:28):
Yeah. That's a scary place to be.
Then, but what and what that would be is well, he's able to,
he's able to use it for good. And after the fact it's like,
no, there's there has to be likethis compatibility there of
like, yeah, you meant it for evil.
God meant it for good. Right.
Genesis 5020. Yeah, The story of Joseph.
(15:50):
Yeah. It's the Satan meant the cross
for evil, right? God meant the cross for good,
right? And because we can say it about
that big of a scale thing, we can say it in our lives of and
we don't always understand how God is using it for good.
We might not see the fruit of it, but we can know that God is
(16:11):
working all things together for good.
One of my favorite books and I'mnot like the most avid reader,
but All Things for Good is a book by a Puritan and it's a.
Pretty John Flavel. No.
Thomas Watson. Yeah, Watson, Watson.
Yeah, It's a short read, and yetit's one of the most dense
(16:31):
things I've ever picked up in myhands because and the he just
goes through Romans 828 so masterfully, but his, the
chapter headings kind of go likethis.
God works all things together for good.
That means he works the best things for good and he works the
worst things for good. We can believe that because the
Bible says that. So that's some some deep, deep
(16:54):
waters to wade through. So if you're listening to that
and that's new territory for you, yeah, it's going to take
some time to kind of swallow that, think that through, do
some more steady. It's it's beautiful theology.
I mean, it is you could call it Reformed theology, Calvinism,
doctrines of grace. I think it's a beautiful way of
describing like we're talking, like it emphasizes God's grace
(17:15):
in this whole ordeal, right? Like that we're sinners and we
choose sin, and he comes with grace and right.
Well, and that's the other really, that's the so that's, I
would say that's actually the the 1st and most foundational
point to understand is that whenyou're talking about free will,
as humans, we don't have free will.
We have enslaved wills. Ephesians chapter 2 says that we
(17:37):
are dead in sin. We don't do free things.
We are enslaved to our sinful desires.
True freedom actually comes whenJesus saves us.
And now we actually have the ability to choose righteous
actions, choose to follow God. So just another kind of thing to
reflect on. Think about some great passages,
(18:00):
Romans Chapter 9, John chapter 6.
Again, super deep stuff there, but important stuff to think
through. So.
All right. Next question.
Next question, so person writes and quotes First Corinthians 7
verse 9. All right, we're going to talk
about marriage here for a minute.
So here's I'll read I'll read the quote and then I'll read
their question. So the quote is if they cannot
exercise self-control, they should marry for it is better to
(18:22):
marry than to burn with passion.All right, so the question is
how does the lack of self-control to burn with
passion? And they left an emoji.
It's a it's a ARF emoji. I think that's that's pretty
hilarious, so. Thank you for your emoji.
Yeah, I get it. Yeah.
The burn with passion is Yeah, that's, you know, it paints a
picture, right? Yeah.
(18:42):
All right. So they so they ask how does the
lack of self-control justify getting married?
Or is marriage the solution for the self-control?
Does the self-control go away once married?
I've always thought the sex should never be the only reason
you get married to someone, but it sounds like that's what this
verse is saying. That's a great question.
It's not saying to be. I, I really appreciate that.
(19:03):
Yeah. Nuance to their question, his or
her question. It's not saying, Hey, marriage
is a God ordained institution and it should honor God, but if
you really want to have sex, then you should enter into a
marriage that doesn't honor God.No, it's still saying it's not
saying marriage shouldn't be what marriage is meant to be.
(19:26):
It's just saying here's here's amotivation for you in order to
to seek that out, because singleness is an Ave. for for
Christians. I mean, Paul was single.
Jesus was single. It's not like that sinning, but
marriage is God's plan A for flourishing church and community
like we and if I would actually say bear fruit and multiply is a
calling on human beings. And if and so get married, have
(19:50):
kids and help those around you flourish.
If you're not called to that, then it's not that you're taken
out of that context and now you you, you don't bear fruit and
multiply at all. It's it's now your role is to
help those who are married and have kids to flourish.
Like we're still a part of this community that God has
instituted marriage in, and it should be God honoring.
(20:12):
And if we're not married, we should help support marriages
because it's God's Plan A for a flourishing community.
Yeah, I think I get, I get wherethe questions coming from
because it sounds like he's saying, you know, that marriage
is sort of this last result resort if you can't control
yourself. I I totally, I totally get that.
But yeah, like you said, Paul isis actually painting a picture
of the beauty of singleness and how that's what he's called to
(20:35):
and how because the time is short before Jesus returns and
we're called to make disciples of Jesus.
He's saying, you know, if you can, if you can just be single,
focus on making disciples. Of Jesus, Yeah.
Yeah, then that's, that's a giftfrom the Lord and you should,
you should do that. But like you said, that really
God's plan A for human beings is, is to get married and have
kids. And you know, yeah, we make
(20:57):
disciples that way, right, To have more kids and raise them up
in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
So, yeah, so to answer the very practical question, yes, you
should not marry out of lust. Yes, right.
Like if you have a boyfriend or girlfriend and you say, man, I
just really desire to be intimate with them.
(21:20):
And you read this verse and go, that's it.
Let's get married right now. You know that's that's not.
That's not really no other things to consider about how to
honor God. This is the only proof text I
need. It's like, well, then you're.
That's the rest of Scripture. Yeah, yeah.
That's that's that's not Yeah, God.
Yeah, exactly. The rest of Scripture has a lot
to say about about using wisdom when you're choosing a a husband
(21:43):
or wife. Yeah, and I do think I like how
you said it's a gift from the Lord because this verse is
saying burning with passion. That's that's a painful thing to
go through. And I do like the emoji because
there's like a there's that's it's sickening almost sometimes
to think of like my temptation to sin is so strong it makes me
sick. Like that's the the burning with
passion is is the described wellin in in that emoji?
(22:05):
I think so all I want to do right now is is to wrap up this
question is to point out that inthis passage, I actually use
this passage, this chapter in premarital counseling to say,
because I don't know if it's before or after this.
I think it's after this. But Paul actually says like in
essence, a husband and wife should have sex often.
They shouldn't deprive one another.
I think the language, I think the language he uses is do not
(22:30):
deprive one another for the the husband's body is not his own,
but is now his wife, and the wife's body is not her own, but
it's now her husband's. What you have in the marital act
of sex is a husband and a wife giving themselves to each other,
which in in a sense is a reenactment of their wedding
vows. It's a vow renewal when a
(22:51):
husband and wife come together. That's why extramarital sex is a
sin. Like in a tangible way, you're,
you're breaking your vow and you're making a vow with another
person. It's why premarital sex is
wrong, because you're, you know,you're trying to renew a vow
that you haven't made yet. And it's why a husband and wife
(23:13):
not having sex is also wrong because you need to renew those
vows. In a sense, you need to give
yourself to each other because you're not living up to your
vows as well as you. You could be focus on your own
vow and don't hold the other person's vow over their heads,
right. But, and, and so there's
something really beautiful aboutsex in the covenant of marriage.
(23:35):
And there's something really twisted about it outside of that
context, sinful about it outsidethat context.
And so we're not we're what we're trying to say in response
to the question is if you view marriage rightly and sex
rightly, what Paul is trying to say is this is how a husband and
wife fight their battles with lust.
(23:57):
And so that might be a sign to you that God is calling you to
marriage, or it rather, it mightbe a sign that God is not
calling you to singleness. Right, going a totally different
direction here, the next question Who tortures people in
hell? Is it God?
And what happens to people who have never heard of God?
(24:17):
You and I have talked about thisbefore because I said once I had
a revelation and I told you about it, that the Bible doesn't
say torture. We kind of put that word in.
There's torment and sorrow and suffering, but it's not like.
(24:38):
Weeping and gnashing of teeth. Yeah, it's not like God is
coming and saying you have information.
I want torture it it gives God no pleasure in that it's but it
is the just if it's the just response to sin is punishment
and it the reason it's eternal is because one, you're sinning
(24:58):
against an eternal God and two, it's it's the reality of the sin
continues. There's a continual rejection of
God. Yeah.
So, but it's not it's torment, but it's not like he's trying to
get information from you. So to answer the question, it's
not Satan. Hell is created for Satan to be
(25:21):
judged. And that's where sin deserves to
be. And if you want to hold on to
your sin, which clings so closely, you're going there too.
That's the that's the, that's actually this the reality for
all of us. What God is offering is I can
take those. Yeah, I recently preached from
Matthew 25, the sheep and the goats.
Matthew 22 and Matthew 25 are two passages where Jesus talks
(25:42):
very explicitly about hell and kind of paints even some
pictures. And yeah, we also have passages
that make it really clear that Hell was the place that was
designed for Satan and his angels.
Yeah. So Satan is certainly not the
Lord of Hell holding the torture.
Yeah, right. Exactly.
So, yeah, I, I like what you said.
(26:07):
And in some ways I want to, yeah, the, the word torture is
an interesting word there. But I, I would say, yeah, where
does the, the wrath is how we talk about hell, right.
And the wrath does come from God.
It's God's wrath that people areare experiencing suffering in
hell. Yeah.
So torture isn't a word that theBible uses for it, but it is
(26:28):
God's wrath that people receive in hell.
Torture almost gives like this ulterior motive of like, you
have something he needs. And that's not it's not how the
Bible presents it. The Bible presents it as justice
is being done right. And yeah, sins are being
punished. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(26:49):
And we don't get any super detailed picture of that, you
know, but we have enough that weshould understand that it's not
unpleasant experience, you know,the weeping, the gnashing of
teeth. That kind of stuff.
Jesus talks about hell a lot. Yeah, he does more.
Than anybody else in the Bible. Yeah.
Eternal conscious punishment is how we've talked about it
before. I think the Bible talks about it
(27:10):
that way too. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Think of Jonathan Edwards sermonsentences in the Hands of the
Name of God. What I think is actually really
awesome about that sermon, it can throw people off when they
read it. It's like this Great American
piece of literature. Like people read it in school.
I read it in my public school. Is you really?
(27:31):
Yeah. That's interesting.
Not all of it. Ironically, the ending was cut
out, which I'm about to say is my favorite part.
But when he preached that, just historically, when he preached
that the like the congregation was screaming out, how can we be
saved? It was a revival moment.
And so we can judge something byits fruit on that.
I think a little bit we should, but I, I, I appreciate people's
(27:53):
perspective when they say that'sso wrathful.
It's like, yeah, and wrath, God's wrath does exist, yeah.
And it's real and. And we want to warn people.
Of it and that's how he ends hissermon is is he preaches this
message of like it. It's it's terrifying to be a
Sinner in the hand of an angry yacht.
And yet what Jesus is doing, I'mgetting chills thinking about it
(28:15):
and I'm not going to, I'm not going to quote it well,
perfectly. But he says what Jesus has done
is he is flung the door up, dooropen wide and his shouting for
sinners to repent and come home.Yeah.
That's grace, right? We don't minimize the the danger
of our sin because we know that if we view it rightly, it is
(28:36):
horrifying. But if we view God's grace
rightly, it is it is greater. Yeah.
Yeah, if you understand the gravity of your sin and the
horrible experience it would be to suffer the wrath of God, then
that ought to point you to Jesus.
You ought to receive his invitation, his free invitation
to receive grace. Have Jesus take your place of
substitute. Yeah.
(28:56):
So then the I think this culminates in their third
question of the string. Here is what happens to people
who have never heard of God So. Romans One.
Yeah, exactly. So Romans 1 is where we're going
to go. But I think, you know, so people
often paint the picture this way.
They say, They say. What about the poor innocent
(29:17):
person out on an island somewhere who has no access to
the gospel? Who's probably sinless, except
they just don't accept Jesus. Well, and that's where that's
where the analogy breaks down aswe have, we say that the person
is innocent, right? But they're not.
None of us are innocent. All humans are born into sin and
we sin actively and as you said,Romans chapter 1.
And for the wrath of God is revealed against all
(29:38):
unrighteousness and ungodliness.And it goes on to say that we
suppress the truth, but that allof us should be aware.
We should be able to look at thecreation around us and see that
there is a divine powerful creator.
So all of us, by simply looking at the world around us, should
be aware that we didn't come outof nothing, that there is a
(30:00):
Creator, and that we owe Him ourworship and our obedience.
And so at the very lowest level,we should at least understand
that and we have accountability.As a result?
And what what does your heart dowhen you stand before His
throne? And that's all of us have
(30:20):
unrepentant hearts. The Holy Spirit regenerates our
hearts to bring us to a place ofrepentance.
And so for this random person that lives in a cave somewhere,
that person will die. He or she will stand before the
throne of God. And we that's what our prayer
is, is that the heart has changed and softened and bows
before the Lord and. Well, that's why we do missions,
(30:42):
right? That's that's why we believe in
sending missionary. That's why, you know, we don't
say, well, those people over there, they've never heard, so
they're OK. No, he said, they need to hear
the message of Jesus because every human being has sinned and
is guilty before God, and they need a savior.
And so we're going to go to the ends of the earth to share the
gospel of Jesus with them, right?
But maybe this is not where you want to take it.
(31:03):
But I think of very young children or babies who die.
Yeah, they obviously never heardthe gospel, and they obviously
don't even have the intellect torespond.
That's why I'm going to the heart issue.
It's like we sin because we're sinners.
It doesn't matter if you haven'thad the chance to tell a lie
yet. Like we sin because we're
sinners. We're not sinners because we're
(31:24):
sin. Like we're born into this and
conceived into this, to be more precise, right, Conceived in
sin. And so it's the same for all of
us. We have unrepentant hearts.
The Holy Spirit works in our hearts, regenerates us, and
that's when we have a soft heartand accept His grace.
(31:44):
That's what our prayer is for every soul.
Yeah. And that's our only hope.
It's not, oh, but you heard the Gospel enough and you know, or
you said a prayer a certain number of times or anything.
It's. Right.
Yeah. So for those who have heard the
gospel now as we've been talking.
Because you're listening to this, you're listening.
To this, then, yeah, God's wrathis real.
(32:07):
Hell is a place you don't want to be, and yet all of us deserve
to be there because of our sin. But there is an opportunity, and
that's to turn to Jesus, to trust him, put faith in him as
Lord and Savior, to say that he is my God, my King.
To say, Jesus, I want you to take my sins on the cross and
give me your righteousness so that I can have resurrection.
(32:28):
I can have life forever through you.
So that's what we want. That sounds like some good news.
That's that's the good news. That's it.
So thanks, John. Thanks brother, thanks for the
conversation. Thanks everybody for listening.
Hope you have an awesome week.
Welcome to That's a good question, a podcast where we
answer questions about the Christian faith in plain
language. If you or someone you know has
questions, please submit them topeace Church dot CC slash
questions. Hey, welcome to That's a good
question. My name is John.
I'd like to serve as your host. I'm here with Pastor Logan.
(00:30):
Good to be here. And today we're going to talk
about a lot of really interesting questions that have
come in that are kind of all. Over the place an assortment.
An assortment of questions. This is a box of chocolates.
It's a box of chocolates, delicious chocolates.
We're going to talk about ghosts, we're going to talk
about predestination. We're going to talk about
marriage. We're going to talk about hell.
(00:53):
We're going to talk about a lot of different stuff.
It's. A crazy box of chocolates.
It should be actually. Before we get into the box
chocolates, Pastor Logan, I wantto ask you a question.
This is something I think peoplewould be very interested to
hear. You had a very interesting
interaction on Sunday. At church, you wanted me to
talk. I really.
I really do. You don't have to share all the
details. It was, I think this is one of
those things, people, I've had people stand next to me on
(01:14):
Sunday mornings and say, Pastor John, you get some interesting
questions on Sunday mornings, don't you?
And I say yeah. Yeah, it was.
We do. It was about a year ago, I got a
call from our facilities director and she said, you need
to come upstairs right now. So I came up and I, I approached
the her and the man she was talking to and she looked over
and said, oh, thank goodness. So here's a pastor, you can talk
(01:34):
to him. And I realized pretty quickly
that this man, he, he didn't really have many questions.
He just wanted to talk and, and share his thoughts.
And so some of his opinions wereabout theological disagreements.
And I then asked him follow up questions and learned that he
doesn't really have any church that he theologically agrees on.
(01:55):
And I learned that the church hewas coming from was a Mormon
church. And I was pretty blunt with him
and said, we, we love that you're here because we believe,
we preach truth and we want you to know truth.
But it sounds like you have somepretty fundamental disagreements
with us. And I, I wonder why you don't go
to the church that you have, you're closer lined with which
is the Mormon church. And he said, you know, they just
don't get it either. And this conversation concluded
(02:18):
with him saying, I've gone through, most people don't get
it. I've gone through a lot of
spiritual experiences and I've learned that I'm God.
And so I tried. To That's a pretty interesting
conversation. I tried to end the conversation
quickly and again said, I think you need to hear truth, and so
you're welcome here to hear truth, but that we have, we
(02:42):
profoundly disagree with the things you're saying about
spiritual things. But I said, can you explain what
you mean by that? And he said, I'll give you an
example. He said I was walking down the
road the other day and I found a$20 bill.
And I thought to myself, I made this happen.
I don't know how yet, but I knowthat I made this happen and that
(03:06):
was his proof that he was God tome.
I thought it might be interesting for people to hear
one of those conversations that one of their pastors, you know,
had on a Sunday morning. Yeah, pretty interesting.
So obviously somebody that we should pray for, Yep.
That we hope comes to know Jesusas Savior.
But yeah, that's, you know, whenyou wake up on Sunday morning,
(03:26):
you didn't expect somebody to come to you and say, Pastor
Logan, I believe that I am God. It's the type of heresy that you
don't expect to get. No, you didn't see that so
bluntly. Yeah.
Right. Yeah, right.
Well, and we don't want to believe in heresy, so that's why
we're do a podcast that's. Why we do this podcast, That's
why we talk about these things Yep.
We want people to trust in Jesusas savior.
(03:48):
Yes, let's. Give them some of these
questions. Yeah.
Let's hope the rest of the podcast is as interesting as
that interaction was without theheresy.
Yep, let's jump in. I think it will be.
We're going to lead off with a great one.
Here's the question. Box of chocolates opened.
What's What's the first one? The first one is, are ghosts
real? So then wait, wait, I got to
(04:10):
read the rest. They ask further, like when we
pass away, can we haunt the earth?
Or are things that people think are ghosts?
Are they just demons that are really good at?
Their job, that's a great, I mean, that's shows wisdom.
I think that's that's where I would land.
I I thought of like when people have like goals in their
(04:31):
retirement. This is like the next step of
like I have afterlife goals on haunt that, you know, I think I
think it's pretty matter of factme in scripture.
No, there is no haunting. No human soul is haunting.
I would say that's spiritual world, angels and demons kind of
thing. I think a a demon would love to
convince you of a haunting, you know?
(04:52):
Yeah, Casper the Friendly ghost.No, no go.
Angels are out and about doing things that are good, so.
So sure, sorry, we're saying no such thing as ghosts, but there
are angels and demons. If you're talking a human soul
just kind of free floating, No, no, there is no ambiguity of we
stand before the Lord and he judges us and thank, thank
(05:16):
Jesus, thank God for Jesus. Angels and demons.
Yeah, they're out and about and doing things and we're unaware.
I, I one of my favorite and we've talked about angels on
this podcast before, but one of my favorite verses about angels
is Hebrews. It's in Hebrews, but it says be
hospitable to everyone because some have entertained angels
unaware. That's right.
(05:36):
It's like, yeah, they're the spiritual world is active and
that includes both angels and demons, right?
Yeah, but no, the Bible does notsay that we get an option to
remain as a ghost on the earth or especially to haunt people.
That's no, no, yeah, no. When we when we die, we stand
before the judgement throne, like you said.
(05:56):
That's that's an important thingto realize.
And I always like saying as far as spiritual realm, spiritual
warfare goes, the greatest comfort to us is that the Holy
Spirit is with us. That should be He is the
comforter. And so it should give us comfort
that angels are protecting God'speople.
And it should give us a reasonable amount of wariness
(06:17):
that demons are active as well. But the greatest comfort is that
the Holy Spirit is with us. Yeah, no, that's always been a
thing. I've always said people ask me
about horror films sometimes andI say I cannot watch horror
films. One of the.
Reasons. It's like allowing a foot in the
door. Well, yeah.
And well, and I say specifically, one of the reasons
is I think a lot of people thinkit's OK to watch horror films
because they think, well, none of this is real.
(06:37):
But for me, I think for us as Christians, we go, well, the
demonic is real. And so to me, that's what's
terrifying about it, is just that those things, yeah, we're
talking about something that is real out there, Demons.
And Bible says think of lovely things, think of good things and
pure things and. So totally, definitely.
All right, next question. I love this question.
What is a short, easy to understand way to explain free
(07:02):
will and predestination? I've had this question more than
most questions as. A pastor, Did I ask you for a
short and easy? Way no, just the pre destination
thing, you know, and I've had some good answers to this
question. There's been moments in my life
where I thought I did a good jobanswering that, but the most,
most of the time I'm like, that's too complex and I, I
(07:25):
ruined it and I tripped on my words.
And I do, I even understand that, you know, I, I usually
walk away thinking that, but I, I, I've, I've heard it explained
really well sometimes. And I, I usually, I usually
think of this. I, I want to, I want to just
lay, lay the groundwork here andsay the Bible uses the word
predestination. And so Christians need to
believe it. What is it though?
(07:45):
And, and there's different, you know, types of different ways of
understanding it, but I would just say the Bible is
unapologetic that there is a divine, omnipotent, omniscient
agent God and he has agency and he is sovereign.
But the Bible also presents finite people who also have
(08:11):
agency. We have responsibility.
And those two things are compatible.
And so the word I think of, I think should be said more often
is I understand why people want to emphasize free will.
It's like, yeah, we have agency.The Bible says you are
responsible. But the word compatible, the
Bible doesn't explain all the philosophy and, and metaphysics
of it, but it does say that God has agency.
(08:33):
Human beings have agency and they coexist.
They they are compatible together somehow, without
detracting from our responsibility or God's
sovereignty. Right, that's a great answer.
I'll try that. I like that.
Yeah. Like you said at the beginning,
I think often I run into people and they simply ask the
question, do you believe in predestination?
Right. Or they'll say outright, they'll
(08:54):
say, I don't believe in predestination, and I'll say,
well. That's a word.
That's a Christian. Yeah, I say.
Well. You know, it's not just a
concept in the Bible that that that word is literally in the
Bible words like predestination,election.
So it's not do you believe in this?
What does it mean? How do we understand it?
Is the question. Same thing with free will.
What do you mean by that? And I just go to.
(09:14):
I mean, not quite the same thing, right?
Because free will is not a word in the Bible.
That's a great point. So why?
Yeah, so that's a that's a. So this is one of those things I
think asking for a short and easy answer to this question is
a tall order. That's a that's a lot.
So we're we're going to try to do our best here.
But this is one of those questions that is legitimately
complex. It's.
(09:35):
It's tough. Well, when it gets into like
philosophy and sure, what does it mean to have will?
And does God have two wills? Like, what is his his moral will
versus his decree in you get into some yeah, some hazy.
So, so to take so to to go alongwith what you just said about
God's sovereignty and our responsibility.
So I think a few important passages to think about.
(09:57):
The most important event to think about is the most evil
thing that's ever happened in human history, which is the
murder of the Son of God. OK.
So I think that's a great momentfor us to look at and think
about what was going on in relationship to God being in
control, but humans making decisions and being responsible
for their decisions. So Acts chapter 2 and Acts
chapter 4, two passages that talk about this in Acts chapter
(10:19):
2, Peter, the apostles preachingat Pentecost and he's talking to
a group of people in front of him at Jerusalem, Jewish people
in front of him. And he explains that the Jews,
you all are responsible for murdering the Son of God.
And he says the Romans, you know, Pontius Pilate, Herod,
these guys are responsible for murdering the Son of God.
(10:41):
And he also says that this all happened according to the
foreknowledge and predestinationof God the Father.
So he lays out both of those things at the exact same time.
He says this was God's plan. And he says the people who
killed Jesus are responsible forwhat they did were.
You going to go to another chapter?
No, I think I mean I would say Acts 4 basically reiterates the
(11:02):
same. And I would just go all of Acts.
I we, we wrote a study through Acts recently.
I've just been studying it recently a lot.
And it's, it's, it makes your jaw hit the floor.
It's just how much God's sovereignty is on full display.
It literally the Bible in Acts will literally say as many as
were appointed became believers,right.
(11:25):
You know, and like time after time, it seems like the gospel
is being snuffed out and yet thenext verse is like, and so it
spread. You know, it's like every time
Paul goes somewhere, it's like this.
It is crazy how much God is in control despite from the
(11:47):
perspective of the church being there is no control.
Satan's in control of what's going on and God's in control of
all of it. You know, I mean, James was
executed and now Peter's in lineof being executed and they're,
it's Easter and they're praying.And then Peter just miraculously
gets kicked out of, you know, gets broken out of prison.
It's like God's doing what he wants and people are doing what
(12:09):
they want. And both of those things are
happening at the same time, right?
Right. And I can imagine, so if you're
listening to this and this is kind of some new territory for
you, I can, I can imagine, I think initially people's
reaction is actually, this is a little bit troubling to them.
They're like, wait a minute, howcan that be that, you know, but
I think over time it actually becomes deeply comforting,
which, but, but it's OK, you gotto wrestle through some passages
(12:31):
of Scripture to get there. But then the important thing to
realize is you, you got to go tothe Bible.
You got to, you got to, you know, not, not just stick to
what you think makes sense or seems fair in your own mind.
You got to go to what does the Bible say?
Because I think initially we hear, well, if God planned the
murder of Jesus, Jesus down on the cross as a sacrifice for our
sins, then how can he hold the Romans and the Jews responsible
(12:54):
for what they did? How is he not the author of Sin
right? Yeah, that's the wow.
That's, that's what it ultimately gets to, right?
That's the, that's a huge question.
Yeah. But what we have to say is,
well, the Bible holds up both ofthese things.
God was sovereign, but humans were also.
Responsible. Unapologetically.
Yeah, Yeah. It's very clear about that.
And so, yeah, I also always saidthat I think it's, I think the
(13:18):
question about free will isn't so much the question.
We actually jump a step further to the responsibility question.
Yeah. Yeah.
And it would be wrong to belittle God's sovereignty or to
belittle our responsibility, right?
Yeah, the Bible is is not wanting us to belittle either of
those things. I think of the reason it's a
comfort is because there's a reason Christians believe
(13:38):
everything happens for a reason that God, God is working
together all things for good. Like we can.
We believe that That's a that's why it's a comfort.
We have reason to believe that. We don't just say it.
Yeah, yeah. So that's Romans 828.
Yeah. We know that God works all
things for the good of those wholove Him and are called
according to His purpose. So if God isn't in control of
everything, then that verse can't really be true.
(14:00):
And it can't be true that everything happens for a reason
that there's like, and that's like, that's more of like a
sensational way of saying it. Romans 828 is the biblical way
of saying it. But like, if God is not
sovereign, then it he you have to believe that he's like
limited his divinity in some wayand then you get into some, you
know, wonky waters that you don't want to get.
(14:20):
Into well, let's play that out just for a minute
philosophically, because I thinkit's important just to like
think through the live alternatives, right?
If you're, if you're saying, well, I don't like the idea of,
of that of, of God being that incontrol.
Well, let's think about the livealternatives.
So if if God, if God's sovereignty can be thwarted by
human quote UN quote free will, then what can God do?
(14:44):
And is he really God if he can'tstop you, control you?
I mean, one of the questions that I've asked you before is I
said, OK, so you believe that. Let me let me you know, have you
ever prayed that God would keep you safe on your drive home from
church or from work or whatever?OK, but do you believe that God
could overcome the will of the driver coming at you?
(15:08):
Because if you don't believe that God can overcome their
will, then why are you even praying that he would do so?
That's all a contradiction in and of itself, you know, So you
can't. It's actually a pretty scary
world to live in, I think, if you believe that God can't
overcome somebody's choices, somebody's will.
Or work through it. Sure, yeah.
(15:28):
Yeah. That's a scary place to be.
Then, but what and what that would be is well, he's able to,
he's able to use it for good. And after the fact it's like,
no, there's there has to be likethis compatibility there of
like, yeah, you meant it for evil.
God meant it for good. Right.
Genesis 5020. Yeah, The story of Joseph.
(15:50):
Yeah. It's the Satan meant the cross
for evil, right? God meant the cross for good,
right? And because we can say it about
that big of a scale thing, we can say it in our lives of and
we don't always understand how God is using it for good.
We might not see the fruit of it, but we can know that God is
(16:11):
working all things together for good.
One of my favorite books and I'mnot like the most avid reader,
but All Things for Good is a book by a Puritan and it's a.
Pretty John Flavel. No.
Thomas Watson. Yeah, Watson, Watson.
Yeah, It's a short read, and yetit's one of the most dense
(16:31):
things I've ever picked up in myhands because and the he just
goes through Romans 828 so masterfully, but his, the
chapter headings kind of go likethis.
God works all things together for good.
That means he works the best things for good and he works the
worst things for good. We can believe that because the
Bible says that. So that's some some deep, deep
(16:54):
waters to wade through. So if you're listening to that
and that's new territory for you, yeah, it's going to take
some time to kind of swallow that, think that through, do
some more steady. It's it's beautiful theology.
I mean, it is you could call it Reformed theology, Calvinism,
doctrines of grace. I think it's a beautiful way of
describing like we're talking, like it emphasizes God's grace
(17:15):
in this whole ordeal, right? Like that we're sinners and we
choose sin, and he comes with grace and right.
Well, and that's the other really, that's the so that's, I
would say that's actually the the 1st and most foundational
point to understand is that whenyou're talking about free will,
as humans, we don't have free will.
We have enslaved wills. Ephesians chapter 2 says that we
(17:37):
are dead in sin. We don't do free things.
We are enslaved to our sinful desires.
True freedom actually comes whenJesus saves us.
And now we actually have the ability to choose righteous
actions, choose to follow God. So just another kind of thing to
reflect on. Think about some great passages,
(18:00):
Romans Chapter 9, John chapter 6.
Again, super deep stuff there, but important stuff to think
through. So.
All right. Next question.
Next question, so person writes and quotes First Corinthians 7
verse 9. All right, we're going to talk
about marriage here for a minute.
So here's I'll read I'll read the quote and then I'll read
their question. So the quote is if they cannot
exercise self-control, they should marry for it is better to
(18:22):
marry than to burn with passion.All right, so the question is
how does the lack of self-control to burn with
passion? And they left an emoji.
It's a it's a ARF emoji. I think that's that's pretty
hilarious, so. Thank you for your emoji.
Yeah, I get it. Yeah.
The burn with passion is Yeah, that's, you know, it paints a
picture, right? Yeah.
(18:42):
All right. So they so they ask how does the
lack of self-control justify getting married?
Or is marriage the solution for the self-control?
Does the self-control go away once married?
I've always thought the sex should never be the only reason
you get married to someone, but it sounds like that's what this
verse is saying. That's a great question.
It's not saying to be. I, I really appreciate that.
(19:03):
Yeah. Nuance to their question, his or
her question. It's not saying, Hey, marriage
is a God ordained institution and it should honor God, but if
you really want to have sex, then you should enter into a
marriage that doesn't honor God.No, it's still saying it's not
saying marriage shouldn't be what marriage is meant to be.
(19:26):
It's just saying here's here's amotivation for you in order to
to seek that out, because singleness is an Ave. for for
Christians. I mean, Paul was single.
Jesus was single. It's not like that sinning, but
marriage is God's plan A for flourishing church and community
like we and if I would actually say bear fruit and multiply is a
calling on human beings. And if and so get married, have
(19:50):
kids and help those around you flourish.
If you're not called to that, then it's not that you're taken
out of that context and now you you, you don't bear fruit and
multiply at all. It's it's now your role is to
help those who are married and have kids to flourish.
Like we're still a part of this community that God has
instituted marriage in, and it should be God honoring.
(20:12):
And if we're not married, we should help support marriages
because it's God's Plan A for a flourishing community.
Yeah, I think I get, I get wherethe questions coming from
because it sounds like he's saying, you know, that marriage
is sort of this last result resort if you can't control
yourself. I I totally, I totally get that.
But yeah, like you said, Paul isis actually painting a picture
of the beauty of singleness and how that's what he's called to
(20:35):
and how because the time is short before Jesus returns and
we're called to make disciples of Jesus.
He's saying, you know, if you can, if you can just be single,
focus on making disciples. Of Jesus, Yeah.
Yeah, then that's, that's a giftfrom the Lord and you should,
you should do that. But like you said, that really
God's plan A for human beings is, is to get married and have
kids. And you know, yeah, we make
(20:57):
disciples that way, right, To have more kids and raise them up
in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
So, yeah, so to answer the very practical question, yes, you
should not marry out of lust. Yes, right.
Like if you have a boyfriend or girlfriend and you say, man, I
just really desire to be intimate with them.
(21:20):
And you read this verse and go, that's it.
Let's get married right now. You know that's that's not.
That's not really no other things to consider about how to
honor God. This is the only proof text I
need. It's like, well, then you're.
That's the rest of Scripture. Yeah, yeah.
That's that's that's not Yeah, God.
Yeah, exactly. The rest of Scripture has a lot
to say about about using wisdom when you're choosing a a husband
(21:43):
or wife. Yeah, and I do think I like how
you said it's a gift from the Lord because this verse is
saying burning with passion. That's that's a painful thing to
go through. And I do like the emoji because
there's like a there's that's it's sickening almost sometimes
to think of like my temptation to sin is so strong it makes me
sick. Like that's the the burning with
passion is is the described wellin in in that emoji?
(22:05):
I think so all I want to do right now is is to wrap up this
question is to point out that inthis passage, I actually use
this passage, this chapter in premarital counseling to say,
because I don't know if it's before or after this.
I think it's after this. But Paul actually says like in
essence, a husband and wife should have sex often.
They shouldn't deprive one another.
I think the language, I think the language he uses is do not
(22:30):
deprive one another for the the husband's body is not his own,
but is now his wife, and the wife's body is not her own, but
it's now her husband's. What you have in the marital act
of sex is a husband and a wife giving themselves to each other,
which in in a sense is a reenactment of their wedding
vows. It's a vow renewal when a
(22:51):
husband and wife come together. That's why extramarital sex is a
sin. Like in a tangible way, you're,
you're breaking your vow and you're making a vow with another
person. It's why premarital sex is
wrong, because you're, you know,you're trying to renew a vow
that you haven't made yet. And it's why a husband and wife
(23:13):
not having sex is also wrong because you need to renew those
vows. In a sense, you need to give
yourself to each other because you're not living up to your
vows as well as you. You could be focus on your own
vow and don't hold the other person's vow over their heads,
right. But, and, and so there's
something really beautiful aboutsex in the covenant of marriage.
(23:35):
And there's something really twisted about it outside of that
context, sinful about it outsidethat context.
And so we're not we're what we're trying to say in response
to the question is if you view marriage rightly and sex
rightly, what Paul is trying to say is this is how a husband and
wife fight their battles with lust.
(23:57):
And so that might be a sign to you that God is calling you to
marriage, or it rather, it mightbe a sign that God is not
calling you to singleness. Right, going a totally different
direction here, the next question Who tortures people in
hell? Is it God?
And what happens to people who have never heard of God?
(24:17):
You and I have talked about thisbefore because I said once I had
a revelation and I told you about it, that the Bible doesn't
say torture. We kind of put that word in.
There's torment and sorrow and suffering, but it's not like.
(24:38):
Weeping and gnashing of teeth. Yeah, it's not like God is
coming and saying you have information.
I want torture it it gives God no pleasure in that it's but it
is the just if it's the just response to sin is punishment
and it the reason it's eternal is because one, you're sinning
(24:58):
against an eternal God and two, it's it's the reality of the sin
continues. There's a continual rejection of
God. Yeah.
So, but it's not it's torment, but it's not like he's trying to
get information from you. So to answer the question, it's
not Satan. Hell is created for Satan to be
(25:21):
judged. And that's where sin deserves to
be. And if you want to hold on to
your sin, which clings so closely, you're going there too.
That's the that's the, that's actually this the reality for
all of us. What God is offering is I can
take those. Yeah, I recently preached from
Matthew 25, the sheep and the goats.
Matthew 22 and Matthew 25 are two passages where Jesus talks
(25:42):
very explicitly about hell and kind of paints even some
pictures. And yeah, we also have passages
that make it really clear that Hell was the place that was
designed for Satan and his angels.
Yeah. So Satan is certainly not the
Lord of Hell holding the torture.
Yeah, right. Exactly.
So, yeah, I, I like what you said.
(26:07):
And in some ways I want to, yeah, the, the word torture is
an interesting word there. But I, I would say, yeah, where
does the, the wrath is how we talk about hell, right.
And the wrath does come from God.
It's God's wrath that people areare experiencing suffering in
hell. Yeah.
So torture isn't a word that theBible uses for it, but it is
(26:28):
God's wrath that people receive in hell.
Torture almost gives like this ulterior motive of like, you
have something he needs. And that's not it's not how the
Bible presents it. The Bible presents it as justice
is being done right. And yeah, sins are being
punished. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(26:49):
And we don't get any super detailed picture of that, you
know, but we have enough that weshould understand that it's not
unpleasant experience, you know,the weeping, the gnashing of
teeth. That kind of stuff.
Jesus talks about hell a lot. Yeah, he does more.
Than anybody else in the Bible. Yeah.
Eternal conscious punishment is how we've talked about it
before. I think the Bible talks about it
(27:10):
that way too. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Think of Jonathan Edwards sermonsentences in the Hands of the
Name of God. What I think is actually really
awesome about that sermon, it can throw people off when they
read it. It's like this Great American
piece of literature. Like people read it in school.
I read it in my public school. Is you really?
(27:31):
Yeah. That's interesting.
Not all of it. Ironically, the ending was cut
out, which I'm about to say is my favorite part.
But when he preached that, just historically, when he preached
that the like the congregation was screaming out, how can we be
saved? It was a revival moment.
And so we can judge something byits fruit on that.
I think a little bit we should, but I, I, I appreciate people's
(27:53):
perspective when they say that'sso wrathful.
It's like, yeah, and wrath, God's wrath does exist, yeah.
And it's real and. And we want to warn people.
Of it and that's how he ends hissermon is is he preaches this
message of like it. It's it's terrifying to be a
Sinner in the hand of an angry yacht.
And yet what Jesus is doing, I'mgetting chills thinking about it
(28:15):
and I'm not going to, I'm not going to quote it well,
perfectly. But he says what Jesus has done
is he is flung the door up, dooropen wide and his shouting for
sinners to repent and come home.Yeah.
That's grace, right? We don't minimize the the danger
of our sin because we know that if we view it rightly, it is
(28:36):
horrifying. But if we view God's grace
rightly, it is it is greater. Yeah.
Yeah, if you understand the gravity of your sin and the
horrible experience it would be to suffer the wrath of God, then
that ought to point you to Jesus.
You ought to receive his invitation, his free invitation
to receive grace. Have Jesus take your place of
substitute. Yeah.
(28:56):
So then the I think this culminates in their third
question of the string. Here is what happens to people
who have never heard of God So. Romans One.
Yeah, exactly. So Romans 1 is where we're going
to go. But I think, you know, so people
often paint the picture this way.
They say, They say. What about the poor innocent
(29:17):
person out on an island somewhere who has no access to
the gospel? Who's probably sinless, except
they just don't accept Jesus. Well, and that's where that's
where the analogy breaks down aswe have, we say that the person
is innocent, right? But they're not.
None of us are innocent. All humans are born into sin and
we sin actively and as you said,Romans chapter 1.
And for the wrath of God is revealed against all
(29:38):
unrighteousness and ungodliness.And it goes on to say that we
suppress the truth, but that allof us should be aware.
We should be able to look at thecreation around us and see that
there is a divine powerful creator.
So all of us, by simply looking at the world around us, should
be aware that we didn't come outof nothing, that there is a
(30:00):
Creator, and that we owe Him ourworship and our obedience.
And so at the very lowest level,we should at least understand
that and we have accountability.As a result?
And what what does your heart dowhen you stand before His
throne? And that's all of us have
(30:20):
unrepentant hearts. The Holy Spirit regenerates our
hearts to bring us to a place ofrepentance.
And so for this random person that lives in a cave somewhere,
that person will die. He or she will stand before the
throne of God. And we that's what our prayer
is, is that the heart has changed and softened and bows
before the Lord and. Well, that's why we do missions,
(30:42):
right? That's that's why we believe in
sending missionary. That's why, you know, we don't
say, well, those people over there, they've never heard, so
they're OK. No, he said, they need to hear
the message of Jesus because every human being has sinned and
is guilty before God, and they need a savior.
And so we're going to go to the ends of the earth to share the
gospel of Jesus with them, right?
But maybe this is not where you want to take it.
(31:03):
But I think of very young children or babies who die.
Yeah, they obviously never heardthe gospel, and they obviously
don't even have the intellect torespond.
That's why I'm going to the heart issue.
It's like we sin because we're sinners.
It doesn't matter if you haven'thad the chance to tell a lie
yet. Like we sin because we're
sinners. We're not sinners because we're
(31:24):
sin. Like we're born into this and
conceived into this, to be more precise, right, Conceived in
sin. And so it's the same for all of
us. We have unrepentant hearts.
The Holy Spirit works in our hearts, regenerates us, and
that's when we have a soft heartand accept His grace.
(31:44):
That's what our prayer is for every soul.
Yeah. And that's our only hope.
It's not, oh, but you heard the Gospel enough and you know, or
you said a prayer a certain number of times or anything.
It's. Right.
Yeah. So for those who have heard the
gospel now as we've been talking.
Because you're listening to this, you're listening.
To this, then, yeah, God's wrathis real.
(32:07):
Hell is a place you don't want to be, and yet all of us deserve
to be there because of our sin. But there is an opportunity, and
that's to turn to Jesus, to trust him, put faith in him as
Lord and Savior, to say that he is my God, my King.
To say, Jesus, I want you to take my sins on the cross and
give me your righteousness so that I can have resurrection.
(32:28):
I can have life forever through you.
So that's what we want. That sounds like some good news.
That's that's the good news. That's it.
So thanks, John. Thanks brother, thanks for the
conversation. Thanks everybody for listening.
Hope you have an awesome week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.