October 7, 2025 • 31 mins
What does it really mean to kill sin—not just manage it or feel bad about it? In this captivating episode of That's a Good Question, host Jon Delger, the Executive Pastor of the Peace Family of Churches, and Pastor Karl Clauson discuss the battle every believer faces and the freedom that comes when we let Christ do what we can’t.
Karl shares from his own journey of hitting rock bottom and discovering the life-changing power of surrender to Jesus. We talk about how sin subtly takes root, why white-knuckled effort can’t defeat it, and how grace — not guilt — is the real engine of transformation.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
Welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast where we
answer questions about the Christian faith in plain
language. If you or someone you know has
questions, please submit them toPeace Church dot CC slash
questions. Well, hey everyone, I'm John.
Great to have you with us today.We are here with special guest
(00:31):
Carl Kloss and Carl is the host of Moody Radios Carl and Crew.
He's been a pastor for over 30 years, been married for 38
years. He's an author most recently of
a book called Killing Sin, Conquer the one thing that is
defeating you. And so we are just finishing
here. That's a good question.
A series called Sins we keep in the dark.
And so just a perfect time to get to have Carl on to talk
(00:53):
further about this idea of killing the sin that kills us
from the inside. So, Carl, thanks so much for
joining us on the show. Thank you, John.
Appreciate it man. It is great to have you with us.
Do you mind telling us a little bit about yourself and then if
you don't mind? I know you probably get asked us
a lot and it's hard to keep it short, but even just sharing
with us a little bit of your testimony, I've gotten a chance
(01:14):
to hear some of it before, but we'd love to hear.
That's just a powerful story forfor all of us.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's a bummer
that I had to go so far away from the Lord after being raised
in church, but I did. And it, it was a mess, man.
And what's crazy about it is that I was, I was under a deep
(01:39):
deception that I was born again John when I was not.
And it started being raised in church and I've got a real
passion for people that are in church but not in Christ.
I believe it's an epidemic today.
And one of the one of the realities is although I was
raised in a real grace based home, especially my dad and I
(02:01):
was in church regularly and convicted of sin often, I had
never repented and believed in the lead Lord Jesus Christ for
the full forgiveness of my sins.And so I would have a regret, a
worldly regret that it continuedto lead to death.
And I didn't even know that. So I thought that everything
that I was encountering in Christ is all God had for me.
(02:24):
And, you know, I was a pretty good kid, but at the age of 15,
I got a vision to kind of compete in a race that was from
Anchorage, AK to Nome, AK with adog team.
It's called the Iditarod Trail Sled Dog Race.
And I went on that race after two years of training for it.
(02:46):
And it took me 21 days, 8 hours,12 minutes and 32 seconds.
It was a long haul. I was 18.
And the interesting thing, John,is that when I got to the finish
line, I had in my young mind a thought that that's going to
fill that God shaped void in my life.
And it didn't. And within about two hours after
(03:09):
that race was done, I realized, man, I'm in trouble here.
This is a problem. And it was almost an audible
conversation between God and Satan himself because God was
clearly calling me to surrender my life to him.
I was broken that night after I completed the idea.
(03:30):
Rod just empty. Couldn't tell anyone because
everybody thought you should be on top of the world, man, your
hometown hero, you should be just pumped.
But I wasn't, and Satan was calling my name to go out and
find that void filler in the world.
And it put me on a four or five year Sprint into a mess.
(03:52):
I mean, raging cocaine addiction, raging alcohol
addiction, a lot of carousing, and just a train wreck of a
life. And through a series of a few
broken pieces that God revealed to me and a faithful Father who
prayed for me some tough prayerson a cold winter day in
(04:16):
Anchorage, AK in February 11th, 1984, God called me out of
darkness and into the light. And he just asked me, are you
done yet? And I was done.
And on that day, God miraculously broke the chains of
alcohol and cocaine addiction. And I had a severe addiction, so
much so that I was trafficking small amounts up to Alaska from
(04:40):
Southern California. And I wasn't a big dealer, but I
wanted to. I was entrepreneurial enough.
I didn't want to burn all my resources.
So I thought I'll cut it up and give it to some guys that I
party with and let them go sell it.
The second shipment to Alaska got busted by the feds at
Anchorage International Airport.And if I would have gone to pick
(05:02):
that up, it had my name on the package.
I didn't go pick it up. I got kind of tipped off that
the feds were there. If I'd have picked it up, I'd
have done 20 years in the clink and it would have changed
radically the direction of my life.
But it's God had it. And he did because he calls us
out of darkness and into the light.
He set me free. What's interesting though, is
(05:25):
that as much as God totally re engineered my life from the
inside out, there was still things in my life that needed to
be dealt with. And I'm so glad you're doing
this series about this. This idea, though, that sin can
hide in the darkness, it really doesn't.
Whatever's in the dark ultimately pollutes and dilutes
(05:50):
everything that's in the light about you.
That's why it's so imperative toput to death what's killing us.
And I'm here today to tell you that as a pastor, one of the
most fundamental elements of discipleship that we've lost is
learning the biblical art of putting sin to death in our
(06:11):
life. We talked about it.
We confess it at a small group, but do we have a biblical
strategy to put it to death? And that's what my passion is.
John. Wow.
Brother, thank you so much for sharing that.
Yeah. Praise God for what he's done in
your life. It's such such an amazing story.
I think one of the things that's, that's especially
amazing to me is, is actually how early in life God brought
(06:34):
you to that point. You know, I've, I, we hear that
story of people being brought tothat point of success that then
leads to that valley. But wow, I mean, hear you say
that at 18 years old and then even just two hours after
finishing the race, you already realized that it wasn't all that
you were looking for. That's, that's, that's pretty
early in life for that to hit you.
That's. It is, and you know, everybody,
(06:58):
every person is born an enemy ofthe cross.
And we aren't children of God until we believe in Jesus, then
he gives the right to be called children of God.
But when we find ourselves born again, the beautiful thing about
God liberating me from those, what I would call very
(07:18):
demonstrative sins in my life isthat it gave me great confidence
that God could continue to alterthings inside me.
And to this day I have that great confidence.
Yeah, and it's amazing, too, to hear you talk about thinking
that you were born again but notbeing born again.
Yeah, that's such an experience.So, you know, I'm coming from
(07:41):
the area of Grand Rapids, MI, West Michigan, which I think I
often say is a lot like the Bible Belt areas, and that
there's just tons of religious influence.
And so I think a lot of people do grow up going to Sunday
school, sitting in church at least most weeks, but then not
really realizing that they they haven't actually professed faith
in Jesus. They haven't actually received
(08:02):
him as their savior. I guess I sort of want to ask,
you know, as a pastor, as a writer, as somebody who
experienced that yourself, is there anything that you try to
say to people or that we can sayto people to try to shake them
out of that situation of thinking they're saved when
they're not? And John, I'm so glad you
mentioned that. I think Matthew 7 in the Sermon
(08:24):
on the Mount is probably the most sobering text in the
Scriptures. You can go to Matthew 25 and the
10 bridesmaids, that parable where five were ready to go with
Jesus when he returned, five were not.
They were all dressed up this name wanting the same thing, but
only five were ready. But in Matthew 7, Jesus says,
(08:47):
many will say to me on that day,Lord, Lord, and he's going to
say, I never knew you. Now the tendency for most of us
that are in church to think, yeah, well, there's a lot of
people out there. They're going to be appealing to
Jesus, you know, but that's whathe says.
He says that they will appeal tohim saying we taught in Jesus
name. We cast out demons in Jesus
(09:09):
names and we did mighty works inJesus name and he's going to say
depart from me. I never knew you.
So the shocker there, John, is that spiritual activity does not
mean spiritual transformation atall.
So there's a lot of people that are in church that are not in
(09:31):
Christ. I happen to agree with Louis
Giglio who was preaching to a bunch of students, 30,000 of
them down in Atlanta, and his statement was bold, but I
believe it's true and there's millions and millions of people.
These are his words, Millions and millions of people every
weekend who go to good Bible preaching churches who are lost
(09:53):
and do not know they are lost. I call it a hallucination of
salvation. When I was on the rod, I went
into a pretty deep hallucination.
It was sleep deprivation and everything all combined.
And I saw a village in front of me.
I saw a cabin. I saw a light on.
I saw a guy out chopping wood. And I was, I mean, it was there,
(10:18):
John. It was there in my mind.
It was there. I got off the sled, put in my
snow hook into the sea ice. I was on the Norton Sound, took
a couple of steps toward what I thought was a man chopping wood,
who I was going to ask him, where do I check in my team and
poof, the whole village disappeared, just disappeared.
(10:40):
Well, what we find in Matthew 7 is a hallucination of salvation.
People are seeing something in themselves that's not there.
I was. I was up near Grand Rapids.
That was, I was teaching for a week at some camp.
What's the name of that? Maranatha camp up up near Yeah.
And so doing a week of teaching.And I kicked off the morning
(11:04):
session on a Sunday and the auditorium was filled and I went
through Matthew 7 and I went through Matthew 25.
And then I unpacked how it is that we're truly born again and
that Jesus first words in the Sermon on the Mount.
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for there's his Kingdom of
heaven until you come to a pointof spiritual bankruptcy and you
(11:27):
see that and you repent and you turn.
I mean repent. That means change of mind,
change of lifestyle, change of heart, change of everything.
Turn away from the broad path onto the narrow path.
You can't know Jesus. And on that morning I gave an
invitation and we had about 55 people, and these are all very
(11:49):
church people, 55 people who surrendered their life to Christ
that morning. Praise God.
That was a Sidewinder missile for a lot of these people
because they didn't know what they were walking into, but the
Holy Spirit was quickening theirhearts and revealing and to them
that they were under a deep deception.
As you can tell, this is a heartache for me, John, because
(12:13):
a lot of people, especially postCOVID, John, a lot of people
have seen adult kids, 20s, thirties, even into their 40s,
that age bracket. COVID granted people permission
to do what they always were and that was just kind of evaporate
(12:35):
from the church. And you know, I tell parents all
the time after I listen to theirstory and they talk about their
kids and I say, is your is your son or daughter a disciple of
Christ? Because that's the term that use
369 times in New Testament. They say, well, they accepted
(12:56):
Jesus. They they walked down an aisle.
They were baptized at this. They go to these events or they
were raised in church and I say no, I need you to listen to me.
Does your son or daughter, not perfection, but did they do they
display a passion to follow Jesus Christ?
And then they say no. And I say to them, let's stop
(13:18):
praying that your kids get back in church.
Let's pray starting today that your kids get in Christ.
And this is huge. I'm glad you're lingering here.
I know this isn't the topic of the day, but this is the topic
that our our church desperately needs.
John. Yeah, I agree.
I agree. We a few years ago we preached A
(13:40):
sermon series at the church called Haunting.
It was around Halloween time andwe picked some of the most
haunting or terrifying passages in the Bible.
Matthew 7 was one of them. Matthew 7 is a terrifying
passage in the Bible. That idea that, you know, I, I
think about the people that are talked about, I just pulled it
up in front of me here that the people that are talked about in
Matthew Chapter 7, I think I've never prophesied.
(14:00):
I've never cast out a demon. So these guys have done some
things that I've never done and they still got told, you know,
depart from me. You never knew me.
And I think, holy smokes, that Imean, that's just, that's a
terrifying. Idea you combine that with the
parable of the 10 virgins in Matthew 25 or 10 bridesmaids,
whatever you want to call it, and they're waiting for the
groom to come and then the groom's coming.
(14:23):
Boom, they get word, the groom'scoming and, and I believe the
oil in the lamps of the five that are ready to go of the 10,
I believe that represents the Holy Spirit.
But whatever it is, it represents that these five had
an authentic relationship with Christ.
And the other five were scurrying to try to get oil in
(14:44):
their lamps and they couldn't and they were lost.
And everybody was wearing the same clothes, everybody same,
same, same hope. Everybody had their religious
lamp, you know what I'm saying? So they all had the stuff that
made them look right. Some were filled with the real
thing, some were not. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a crazy
(15:07):
thing. Even the disciples asked Jesus,
hey, what's what's going on withKingdom of God?
And he said, Kingdom of God is man, there's going to be wheat
that's growing. And then in the night, Satan's
going to come in and he's going to plant weeds and they're going
to really look close to the wheat.
And the disciples said, ah, ha, man, we got to go get the weeds
out. And he said, no, let him grow.
(15:27):
And at harvest time we'll sort out who's who.
So if anyone's listening right now, and if you aren't certain
of who you are in Jesus Christ, I beg you, man, repent, fall to
your knees and surrender all that you are to him.
And don't let pride of all your religious stuff from the past
hold you back from coming to know Jesus.
Yeah, Amen, Amen. That word, repentance is so key.
(15:50):
It's one of those things that's easy, I think especially in the
United States for us to skip out.
You know, we jump to the you need to faith to have salvation
in Jesus. But Jesus in Mark chapter 1,
when he's preaching the gospel, he says repent and believe.
He connects those two things. They got to go together.
So we don't earn our salvation by works, but there are, there
is a result when you receive salvation.
Those things have to go together, faith and repentance.
(16:13):
Yeah, it's all God's work. I mean, God convicts us of sin.
God convicts us of our need to turn around.
God seals us with the power of the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1 But authentic faith means you're leaving the broad
path, and it means you're hitting this narrow path, and
few will find it. But we hope that as many as
whosoever will may come. God still offers it to everyone
(16:34):
today. Yeah.
Amen. That's the good news of the
Gospel. Yeah, man.
Praise the Lord. So thinking about this idea in
your book of killing sin, and it's something that we've been
talking about here on the show, but how do we how do we kill
these sins that that linger so much in our lives?
So you, so you talked actually about conquering a very enormous
one, an addiction to a substance.
I mean, I can, I can only imagine what a what a challenge
(16:56):
that is to fight and to kill that sin.
So I'm just thinking about if somebody's listening and they're
and they're, they're deep in sinand they're saying, I don't know
how I can escape. What would you say to them gives
them hope in this idea that theyactually can have victory over
that sin? God can do what you can't do.
(17:16):
The greatest problem, I think inthe church today, the Western
church, because you don't find this in the persecuted church.
They cling to Jesus. We in the West cling to
ourselves. We, those that have trusted
Christ, trust Christ to save us and then we put the onus on us
to sanctify us. In fact, Paul would call that
(17:38):
another gospel. A different gospel calls in
Galatians 1 and he says if anyone's preach in a different
gospel, let him be accursed. It's pretty heavy duty language.
But the different gospel is and it starts off in Galatians.
One who has bewitched you that that you began in the spirit.
Why are you working out in the flesh?
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He says, what are you doing? And so here was the challenge in
Galatia. And it's true for us today, big
time. We are attempting in our
strength to do what only God cando.
So here's what I'd say if you feel like you've tried to.
And sins can fill any category. And I think one of the big ones
in our culture today is not substance abuse.
(18:22):
Most people listening here aren't tempted for cocaine.
I'm not anymore either. I've been free for many decades,
but you can be very much in the camp of having your wall leaned
against your ladder, leaned against the wall of materialism
and you're climbing that ladder.You're attempting to derive life
from the stuff that you can get and or the identity that you
(18:46):
have, the platform that you have.
You're finding security, satisfaction, status.
Anything that's separating us from God is sin.
And then the question is, how dowe get over those things?
Sometimes my my conviction is sometimes if it's if you're a
binge drinker, that's, that's easier.
Some ways a cocaine addict, because you know it, you got to
(19:09):
pin down, you can bring it out into the light.
But some of these other deadly ones are you're a sluggard on
your free time and it's kicking your booty because unseized time
always flows to our weaknesses. And that's where porn starts
creeping in. And that's why 60% of men in
(19:30):
church struggle with porn at least once a month.
And so porn gossiping in the lobby, we spiritualize it, but
let's just call it what it is. It's tearing people down to try
to build myself up. You know, whatever it is that's
holding you back from all the promises of God, it's worth
(19:52):
going after and putting to death.
And here's the hope that I have for you.
You can't do it. You can't do it.
The Christ sin. You can.
And that's that's the missing piece.
We have tried to bootstrap our way to freedom over whatever sin
(20:13):
is holding us back. And the goal is not sinless
perfection, John. But we are, according to Romans
6 and 7:00 and 8:00, we are morethan conquerors to Him and loves
us. There is no reason biblically to
have a sin, shame, repent, repeat cycle.
(20:35):
And I would venture to say in myunscientific studies here, but
very real, I would venture to say that 90 plus percent of the
people listening to us right nowhave something in their life
that's holding them back from God's greater promises for them.
And they want victory over it. And very few people know about
(20:58):
it because it's sitting in the shadows, but it's kicking your
backside. Yeah, yeah.
Amen that. Well, brother, thanks for
sharing that. That gives so much hope.
One of the things that you mentioned in there too was the
repent and repeat cycle. So, so key.
It's not something we do once, you know, it is a cycle.
(21:18):
You know, I often I read the book of Judges and I think
that's kind of the picture of myown life and of so many of our
lives, right? It's God saves us, we get lazy,
we fall into sin. God saves us, we get lazy, we
fall into sin. You know, it's just kind of the
cycle of we have these moments of man.
God, thank you so much for saving me out of that.
I'm having so much victory. This is great.
And then we just sort of coast and we're, you know, we're not
(21:40):
in the word, we're not in prayer, we're not in church,
we're not fighting temptation. And then lo and behold, there we
are. We're right back in it.
And then God and his grace savesus again.
And then we repeat the cycle. So, you know, we try to fight
that cycle, but we do have to realize, hey, repentance is not
something that just happens once.
It's it's something that happensover and over again.
So one of the things that you said in the book, Carl, is you
(22:03):
said you can't kill what you don't despise.
I think that's such a powerful statement.
Do you mind talking a little bitmore about that about, you know,
even even the title of the book and the title of, you know, our
conversation today killing sin might strike some as like, oh,
wow, that's that's harsh language.
That's strong. You know, I like some of my
sins. You know what?
Do we? What do we say about that?
(22:24):
Well, I'll open the Word here inRomans 813.
I think this is a preeminent verse in the scriptures I'm
reading from the ESD. It says for if you live
according to the flesh you will die, but if by the power of the
Spirit capital S Holy Spirit is not up to you, if by the Spirit
you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
(22:48):
Chilling sin is biblical. It's biblical.
Jesus said if your eye cause youto sin, gouge it out.
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.
I mean, we find over and over again, and most spiked here, I
think, in Romans 8 and all of Romans 8 is really about the
power of the Spirit. This is one of the central
(23:08):
passages about the power of the Spirit.
But we got to put it to death. Now, if you're going to cling to
what is good, you got to hate what is evil.
And a lot of people wrongly havethought that hate is not a
virtue, but God in his loving divine Providence.
(23:28):
We find in Proverbs that there'sseven things that he absolutely
hates. And I outline that in Killing
Sin, because I think a lot of people have misconceived.
So we say God is love. OK, well, God is love.
And then that precludes that he can have the emotion of hatred.
God has got a great emotion and he hates sin and he hates that
(23:53):
sin is defeating you and he wants you to get that victory.
So one of the things that I do when I'm coaching guys up who
are struggling with any, any number of issues, John, is I'll
ask them, have you come to the point where you despise, not
(24:13):
yourself, but the sin that keepslooping back into your life?
And what I've found is that people who are genuinely sick
and tired of being sick and tired, I'm talking ticked off,
angry, and are ready to get footstomp, and I mean throw
(24:35):
something across the room mad. Why am I getting killed in this
area again? Those are the people that are
ready to change. But until you hate what is
killing you, I don't even think you're in a position spiritually
to change. This whole podcast that we're
doing is kind of an exercise of futility.
(24:55):
But if you can get that, if you can get that emotion and join
God in that emotion of hatred for what's holding you back,
man, now you're positioned for God to work.
Yeah, yeah, I, it's so easy, I think to just sort of sit in
church or to read the word and sort of think, yeah, I'm not
perfect, you know, to just kind of have that sort of casual
(25:18):
shrug of like, well, yeah, you know, I, I don't have it all put
together. But is it really that big a
deal, man, when you, when you just find yourself say, like you
said, I, I can think of some moments in my life where I've,
you know, I've come home and youknow, from a situation or
whatever and just thought, you know, that government, you know,
I hate that I did that. Here I go again.
(25:38):
This is, this is a repeated thing.
This is something that I continue to struggle with and
I'm sick of struggling with it. And we need to do something
about it. And that's that's when the
change really kicks in. Yeah, totally, 100%.
One of the things that you also said in the book, Carl, is
whatever you feed seems to keep coming back.
I think that's so connected to this idea, you know, that we
(25:58):
keep feeding ourselves. I think of one of the things
that CS Lewis said too, right, that he talks about the two
dogs, two dogs at war within theone we feed is the one that
wins. I've never seen that on a
T-shirt. I've often thought they'd make a
great T-shirt someday if somebody wants to make that.
But, you know, help us understand that concept.
How is it that we feed the sin in our lives so that it actually
(26:19):
comes back and and beats us? Yeah, it's, it's interesting.
I, I, my, my bride loves birds, man, and now I love them too.
But she asked me to put up some bird feeders and then I started
figuring out what they like to eat and all that.
And I've got like 2 bird feedersout in the back of our townhouse
and I've got 4 feeders in the front.
(26:41):
Two of them are suet and two of them are four.
And I and I, I get dehuffed sunflower seeds.
I mean, our birds eat really well apparently because they
love it. But here's what I here's what I
noticed. I noticed one day that when the
bird seed is gone, the birds aregone, but when the bird seed is
(27:08):
filled, the birds are there. And you might be John might be
saying, wow, we got a sharp guy here.
It's simple, but it's true. This is why we have to have a
well boundaried life. After you've been putting sin to
death, you got to have a well boundaried life because.
Yeah, I mean, if you're trying to break from a habit of my
(27:32):
whole life revolves around my 4O1K.
Let's just be honest, a lot of people are thinking, man, I've
got to have X I've got to have this.
Hold on a second, hold on. Foxes have holes, birds have
nests. The Son of Man has no place to
lay his head. Look at the birds.
God cares for them. What the world you don't doing
(27:53):
and spending all your emotion. It's a materialistic mindset.
And so if you've got your, if your 5 closest friends, if three
of them are constantly consumed with and talking about money and
finances and all that, you are not going to break.
You're, you're all you're doing is feeding that monster of
earthly stuff. And so you might need to
(28:16):
separate yourself from a couple of those friends, begin to bring
some friends that understand theabiding life in Christ a little
closer to you. So you get freed with that.
And that goes with gossiping andlobbies after church.
Get some new friends, man. It goes with substance abuse.
Get some new people around you. So there's ways that we can not
(28:38):
feed what's been killing us so that it doesn't keep coming
back. Yeah.
Hey, man, you know, it's, it's wild.
I actually for a period of time I knew a a pastor and a handful
of pastors that he he he would share with us at group meetings
that he would call every single day to check on his four O 1K
plan. Every single day he would call
(28:59):
to to check that number. You know, I guess he didn't
access it through the Internet, but he he would make that phone
call and ask what the number wasand he would track every single
day. And he would, you know, he would
talk about it with with this group of guys.
And yeah, it's same idea. If you can get out of that
circle, out of that habit, away from where that is always being
talked about, it can really change your perspective.
It's amazing. So.
(29:20):
Yeah. Well, Brother Carl, this has
been such a fantastic conversation, such an
encouragement about how we can despise, fight, kill, have
victory over our sin. And we've got hope in the Gospel
that it's not all on us. Like you said, Jesus is the one
who died on the cross. Take away our sin.
The Holy Spirit is the one who dwells inside of us to help us
fight against our sin and have victory.
(29:40):
And one day Jesus will return and we will have final victory.
Can't wait. For that day, it's one of.
Those things, you know, and I'm trying to think of which hymn
that is off the top of my head, but that when we sing it, I
think, you know, there's a verseabout that day when we will be
free from sinning yes and I've often thought, you know, it's
like it wasn't until sort of further in my Christian life
(30:01):
that I really appreciated that verse.
You know, there's I, I think right away in the Christian
life, you appreciate verses in songs that are all about, you
know, no more tears, no more pain, you know, those kind of
things. That all sounds great.
But I think it takes a little while before you, you know,
there's a level of maturity before you say, yeah, free from
sin. I can't wait for that day.
I long for that day. If you if you long for that day,
(30:24):
that means that today you have greater potential for not being
a slave to sin. Yeah, Amen.
Well, folks, great book. Killing sin, conquer the one
thing that is defeating you. Carl Clawson, thank you so much
for joining us today, everybody.We hope you have an awesome
week.
Welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast where we
answer questions about the Christian faith in plain
language. If you or someone you know has
questions, please submit them toPeace Church dot CC slash
questions. Well, hey everyone, I'm John.
Great to have you with us today.We are here with special guest
(00:31):
Carl Kloss and Carl is the host of Moody Radios Carl and Crew.
He's been a pastor for over 30 years, been married for 38
years. He's an author most recently of
a book called Killing Sin, Conquer the one thing that is
defeating you. And so we are just finishing
here. That's a good question.
A series called Sins we keep in the dark.
And so just a perfect time to get to have Carl on to talk
(00:53):
further about this idea of killing the sin that kills us
from the inside. So, Carl, thanks so much for
joining us on the show. Thank you, John.
Appreciate it man. It is great to have you with us.
Do you mind telling us a little bit about yourself and then if
you don't mind? I know you probably get asked us
a lot and it's hard to keep it short, but even just sharing
with us a little bit of your testimony, I've gotten a chance
(01:14):
to hear some of it before, but we'd love to hear.
That's just a powerful story forfor all of us.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's a bummer
that I had to go so far away from the Lord after being raised
in church, but I did. And it, it was a mess, man.
And what's crazy about it is that I was, I was under a deep
(01:39):
deception that I was born again John when I was not.
And it started being raised in church and I've got a real
passion for people that are in church but not in Christ.
I believe it's an epidemic today.
And one of the one of the realities is although I was
raised in a real grace based home, especially my dad and I
(02:01):
was in church regularly and convicted of sin often, I had
never repented and believed in the lead Lord Jesus Christ for
the full forgiveness of my sins.And so I would have a regret, a
worldly regret that it continuedto lead to death.
And I didn't even know that. So I thought that everything
that I was encountering in Christ is all God had for me.
(02:24):
And, you know, I was a pretty good kid, but at the age of 15,
I got a vision to kind of compete in a race that was from
Anchorage, AK to Nome, AK with adog team.
It's called the Iditarod Trail Sled Dog Race.
And I went on that race after two years of training for it.
(02:46):
And it took me 21 days, 8 hours,12 minutes and 32 seconds.
It was a long haul. I was 18.
And the interesting thing, John,is that when I got to the finish
line, I had in my young mind a thought that that's going to
fill that God shaped void in my life.
And it didn't. And within about two hours after
(03:09):
that race was done, I realized, man, I'm in trouble here.
This is a problem. And it was almost an audible
conversation between God and Satan himself because God was
clearly calling me to surrender my life to him.
I was broken that night after I completed the idea.
(03:30):
Rod just empty. Couldn't tell anyone because
everybody thought you should be on top of the world, man, your
hometown hero, you should be just pumped.
But I wasn't, and Satan was calling my name to go out and
find that void filler in the world.
And it put me on a four or five year Sprint into a mess.
(03:52):
I mean, raging cocaine addiction, raging alcohol
addiction, a lot of carousing, and just a train wreck of a
life. And through a series of a few
broken pieces that God revealed to me and a faithful Father who
prayed for me some tough prayerson a cold winter day in
(04:16):
Anchorage, AK in February 11th, 1984, God called me out of
darkness and into the light. And he just asked me, are you
done yet? And I was done.
And on that day, God miraculously broke the chains of
alcohol and cocaine addiction. And I had a severe addiction, so
much so that I was trafficking small amounts up to Alaska from
(04:40):
Southern California. And I wasn't a big dealer, but I
wanted to. I was entrepreneurial enough.
I didn't want to burn all my resources.
So I thought I'll cut it up and give it to some guys that I
party with and let them go sell it.
The second shipment to Alaska got busted by the feds at
Anchorage International Airport.And if I would have gone to pick
(05:02):
that up, it had my name on the package.
I didn't go pick it up. I got kind of tipped off that
the feds were there. If I'd have picked it up, I'd
have done 20 years in the clink and it would have changed
radically the direction of my life.
But it's God had it. And he did because he calls us
out of darkness and into the light.
He set me free. What's interesting though, is
(05:25):
that as much as God totally re engineered my life from the
inside out, there was still things in my life that needed to
be dealt with. And I'm so glad you're doing
this series about this. This idea, though, that sin can
hide in the darkness, it really doesn't.
Whatever's in the dark ultimately pollutes and dilutes
(05:50):
everything that's in the light about you.
That's why it's so imperative toput to death what's killing us.
And I'm here today to tell you that as a pastor, one of the
most fundamental elements of discipleship that we've lost is
learning the biblical art of putting sin to death in our
(06:11):
life. We talked about it.
We confess it at a small group, but do we have a biblical
strategy to put it to death? And that's what my passion is.
John. Wow.
Brother, thank you so much for sharing that.
Yeah. Praise God for what he's done in
your life. It's such such an amazing story.
I think one of the things that's, that's especially
amazing to me is, is actually how early in life God brought
(06:34):
you to that point. You know, I've, I, we hear that
story of people being brought tothat point of success that then
leads to that valley. But wow, I mean, hear you say
that at 18 years old and then even just two hours after
finishing the race, you already realized that it wasn't all that
you were looking for. That's, that's, that's pretty
early in life for that to hit you.
That's. It is, and you know, everybody,
(06:58):
every person is born an enemy ofthe cross.
And we aren't children of God until we believe in Jesus, then
he gives the right to be called children of God.
But when we find ourselves born again, the beautiful thing about
God liberating me from those, what I would call very
(07:18):
demonstrative sins in my life isthat it gave me great confidence
that God could continue to alterthings inside me.
And to this day I have that great confidence.
Yeah, and it's amazing, too, to hear you talk about thinking
that you were born again but notbeing born again.
Yeah, that's such an experience.So, you know, I'm coming from
(07:41):
the area of Grand Rapids, MI, West Michigan, which I think I
often say is a lot like the Bible Belt areas, and that
there's just tons of religious influence.
And so I think a lot of people do grow up going to Sunday
school, sitting in church at least most weeks, but then not
really realizing that they they haven't actually professed faith
in Jesus. They haven't actually received
(08:02):
him as their savior. I guess I sort of want to ask,
you know, as a pastor, as a writer, as somebody who
experienced that yourself, is there anything that you try to
say to people or that we can sayto people to try to shake them
out of that situation of thinking they're saved when
they're not? And John, I'm so glad you
mentioned that. I think Matthew 7 in the Sermon
(08:24):
on the Mount is probably the most sobering text in the
Scriptures. You can go to Matthew 25 and the
10 bridesmaids, that parable where five were ready to go with
Jesus when he returned, five were not.
They were all dressed up this name wanting the same thing, but
only five were ready. But in Matthew 7, Jesus says,
(08:47):
many will say to me on that day,Lord, Lord, and he's going to
say, I never knew you. Now the tendency for most of us
that are in church to think, yeah, well, there's a lot of
people out there. They're going to be appealing to
Jesus, you know, but that's whathe says.
He says that they will appeal tohim saying we taught in Jesus
name. We cast out demons in Jesus
(09:09):
names and we did mighty works inJesus name and he's going to say
depart from me. I never knew you.
So the shocker there, John, is that spiritual activity does not
mean spiritual transformation atall.
So there's a lot of people that are in church that are not in
(09:31):
Christ. I happen to agree with Louis
Giglio who was preaching to a bunch of students, 30,000 of
them down in Atlanta, and his statement was bold, but I
believe it's true and there's millions and millions of people.
These are his words, Millions and millions of people every
weekend who go to good Bible preaching churches who are lost
(09:53):
and do not know they are lost. I call it a hallucination of
salvation. When I was on the rod, I went
into a pretty deep hallucination.
It was sleep deprivation and everything all combined.
And I saw a village in front of me.
I saw a cabin. I saw a light on.
I saw a guy out chopping wood. And I was, I mean, it was there,
(10:18):
John. It was there in my mind.
It was there. I got off the sled, put in my
snow hook into the sea ice. I was on the Norton Sound, took
a couple of steps toward what I thought was a man chopping wood,
who I was going to ask him, where do I check in my team and
poof, the whole village disappeared, just disappeared.
(10:40):
Well, what we find in Matthew 7 is a hallucination of salvation.
People are seeing something in themselves that's not there.
I was. I was up near Grand Rapids.
That was, I was teaching for a week at some camp.
What's the name of that? Maranatha camp up up near Yeah.
And so doing a week of teaching.And I kicked off the morning
(11:04):
session on a Sunday and the auditorium was filled and I went
through Matthew 7 and I went through Matthew 25.
And then I unpacked how it is that we're truly born again and
that Jesus first words in the Sermon on the Mount.
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for there's his Kingdom of
heaven until you come to a pointof spiritual bankruptcy and you
(11:27):
see that and you repent and you turn.
I mean repent. That means change of mind,
change of lifestyle, change of heart, change of everything.
Turn away from the broad path onto the narrow path.
You can't know Jesus. And on that morning I gave an
invitation and we had about 55 people, and these are all very
(11:49):
church people, 55 people who surrendered their life to Christ
that morning. Praise God.
That was a Sidewinder missile for a lot of these people
because they didn't know what they were walking into, but the
Holy Spirit was quickening theirhearts and revealing and to them
that they were under a deep deception.
As you can tell, this is a heartache for me, John, because
(12:13):
a lot of people, especially postCOVID, John, a lot of people
have seen adult kids, 20s, thirties, even into their 40s,
that age bracket. COVID granted people permission
to do what they always were and that was just kind of evaporate
(12:35):
from the church. And you know, I tell parents all
the time after I listen to theirstory and they talk about their
kids and I say, is your is your son or daughter a disciple of
Christ? Because that's the term that use
369 times in New Testament. They say, well, they accepted
(12:56):
Jesus. They they walked down an aisle.
They were baptized at this. They go to these events or they
were raised in church and I say no, I need you to listen to me.
Does your son or daughter, not perfection, but did they do they
display a passion to follow Jesus Christ?
And then they say no. And I say to them, let's stop
(13:18):
praying that your kids get back in church.
Let's pray starting today that your kids get in Christ.
And this is huge. I'm glad you're lingering here.
I know this isn't the topic of the day, but this is the topic
that our our church desperately needs.
John. Yeah, I agree.
I agree. We a few years ago we preached A
(13:40):
sermon series at the church called Haunting.
It was around Halloween time andwe picked some of the most
haunting or terrifying passages in the Bible.
Matthew 7 was one of them. Matthew 7 is a terrifying
passage in the Bible. That idea that, you know, I, I
think about the people that are talked about, I just pulled it
up in front of me here that the people that are talked about in
Matthew Chapter 7, I think I've never prophesied.
(14:00):
I've never cast out a demon. So these guys have done some
things that I've never done and they still got told, you know,
depart from me. You never knew me.
And I think, holy smokes, that Imean, that's just, that's a
terrifying. Idea you combine that with the
parable of the 10 virgins in Matthew 25 or 10 bridesmaids,
whatever you want to call it, and they're waiting for the
groom to come and then the groom's coming.
(14:23):
Boom, they get word, the groom'scoming and, and I believe the
oil in the lamps of the five that are ready to go of the 10,
I believe that represents the Holy Spirit.
But whatever it is, it represents that these five had
an authentic relationship with Christ.
And the other five were scurrying to try to get oil in
(14:44):
their lamps and they couldn't and they were lost.
And everybody was wearing the same clothes, everybody same,
same, same hope. Everybody had their religious
lamp, you know what I'm saying? So they all had the stuff that
made them look right. Some were filled with the real
thing, some were not. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a crazy
(15:07):
thing. Even the disciples asked Jesus,
hey, what's what's going on withKingdom of God?
And he said, Kingdom of God is man, there's going to be wheat
that's growing. And then in the night, Satan's
going to come in and he's going to plant weeds and they're going
to really look close to the wheat.
And the disciples said, ah, ha, man, we got to go get the weeds
out. And he said, no, let him grow.
(15:27):
And at harvest time we'll sort out who's who.
So if anyone's listening right now, and if you aren't certain
of who you are in Jesus Christ, I beg you, man, repent, fall to
your knees and surrender all that you are to him.
And don't let pride of all your religious stuff from the past
hold you back from coming to know Jesus.
Yeah, Amen, Amen. That word, repentance is so key.
(15:50):
It's one of those things that's easy, I think especially in the
United States for us to skip out.
You know, we jump to the you need to faith to have salvation
in Jesus. But Jesus in Mark chapter 1,
when he's preaching the gospel, he says repent and believe.
He connects those two things. They got to go together.
So we don't earn our salvation by works, but there are, there
is a result when you receive salvation.
Those things have to go together, faith and repentance.
(16:13):
Yeah, it's all God's work. I mean, God convicts us of sin.
God convicts us of our need to turn around.
God seals us with the power of the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1 But authentic faith means you're leaving the broad
path, and it means you're hitting this narrow path, and
few will find it. But we hope that as many as
whosoever will may come. God still offers it to everyone
(16:34):
today. Yeah.
Amen. That's the good news of the
Gospel. Yeah, man.
Praise the Lord. So thinking about this idea in
your book of killing sin, and it's something that we've been
talking about here on the show, but how do we how do we kill
these sins that that linger so much in our lives?
So you, so you talked actually about conquering a very enormous
one, an addiction to a substance.
I mean, I can, I can only imagine what a what a challenge
(16:56):
that is to fight and to kill that sin.
So I'm just thinking about if somebody's listening and they're
and they're, they're deep in sinand they're saying, I don't know
how I can escape. What would you say to them gives
them hope in this idea that theyactually can have victory over
that sin? God can do what you can't do.
(17:16):
The greatest problem, I think inthe church today, the Western
church, because you don't find this in the persecuted church.
They cling to Jesus. We in the West cling to
ourselves. We, those that have trusted
Christ, trust Christ to save us and then we put the onus on us
to sanctify us. In fact, Paul would call that
(17:38):
another gospel. A different gospel calls in
Galatians 1 and he says if anyone's preach in a different
gospel, let him be accursed. It's pretty heavy duty language.
But the different gospel is and it starts off in Galatians.
One who has bewitched you that that you began in the spirit.
Why are you working out in the flesh?
(17:59):
He says, what are you doing? And so here was the challenge in
Galatia. And it's true for us today, big
time. We are attempting in our
strength to do what only God cando.
So here's what I'd say if you feel like you've tried to.
And sins can fill any category. And I think one of the big ones
in our culture today is not substance abuse.
(18:22):
Most people listening here aren't tempted for cocaine.
I'm not anymore either. I've been free for many decades,
but you can be very much in the camp of having your wall leaned
against your ladder, leaned against the wall of materialism
and you're climbing that ladder.You're attempting to derive life
from the stuff that you can get and or the identity that you
(18:46):
have, the platform that you have.
You're finding security, satisfaction, status.
Anything that's separating us from God is sin.
And then the question is, how dowe get over those things?
Sometimes my my conviction is sometimes if it's if you're a
binge drinker, that's, that's easier.
Some ways a cocaine addict, because you know it, you got to
(19:09):
pin down, you can bring it out into the light.
But some of these other deadly ones are you're a sluggard on
your free time and it's kicking your booty because unseized time
always flows to our weaknesses. And that's where porn starts
creeping in. And that's why 60% of men in
(19:30):
church struggle with porn at least once a month.
And so porn gossiping in the lobby, we spiritualize it, but
let's just call it what it is. It's tearing people down to try
to build myself up. You know, whatever it is that's
holding you back from all the promises of God, it's worth
(19:52):
going after and putting to death.
And here's the hope that I have for you.
You can't do it. You can't do it.
The Christ sin. You can.
And that's that's the missing piece.
We have tried to bootstrap our way to freedom over whatever sin
(20:13):
is holding us back. And the goal is not sinless
perfection, John. But we are, according to Romans
6 and 7:00 and 8:00, we are morethan conquerors to Him and loves
us. There is no reason biblically to
have a sin, shame, repent, repeat cycle.
(20:35):
And I would venture to say in myunscientific studies here, but
very real, I would venture to say that 90 plus percent of the
people listening to us right nowhave something in their life
that's holding them back from God's greater promises for them.
And they want victory over it. And very few people know about
(20:58):
it because it's sitting in the shadows, but it's kicking your
backside. Yeah, yeah.
Amen that. Well, brother, thanks for
sharing that. That gives so much hope.
One of the things that you mentioned in there too was the
repent and repeat cycle. So, so key.
It's not something we do once, you know, it is a cycle.
(21:18):
You know, I often I read the book of Judges and I think
that's kind of the picture of myown life and of so many of our
lives, right? It's God saves us, we get lazy,
we fall into sin. God saves us, we get lazy, we
fall into sin. You know, it's just kind of the
cycle of we have these moments of man.
God, thank you so much for saving me out of that.
I'm having so much victory. This is great.
And then we just sort of coast and we're, you know, we're not
(21:40):
in the word, we're not in prayer, we're not in church,
we're not fighting temptation. And then lo and behold, there we
are. We're right back in it.
And then God and his grace savesus again.
And then we repeat the cycle. So, you know, we try to fight
that cycle, but we do have to realize, hey, repentance is not
something that just happens once.
It's it's something that happensover and over again.
So one of the things that you said in the book, Carl, is you
(22:03):
said you can't kill what you don't despise.
I think that's such a powerful statement.
Do you mind talking a little bitmore about that about, you know,
even even the title of the book and the title of, you know, our
conversation today killing sin might strike some as like, oh,
wow, that's that's harsh language.
That's strong. You know, I like some of my
sins. You know what?
Do we? What do we say about that?
(22:24):
Well, I'll open the Word here inRomans 813.
I think this is a preeminent verse in the scriptures I'm
reading from the ESD. It says for if you live
according to the flesh you will die, but if by the power of the
Spirit capital S Holy Spirit is not up to you, if by the Spirit
you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
(22:48):
Chilling sin is biblical. It's biblical.
Jesus said if your eye cause youto sin, gouge it out.
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.
I mean, we find over and over again, and most spiked here, I
think, in Romans 8 and all of Romans 8 is really about the
power of the Spirit. This is one of the central
(23:08):
passages about the power of the Spirit.
But we got to put it to death. Now, if you're going to cling to
what is good, you got to hate what is evil.
And a lot of people wrongly havethought that hate is not a
virtue, but God in his loving divine Providence.
(23:28):
We find in Proverbs that there'sseven things that he absolutely
hates. And I outline that in Killing
Sin, because I think a lot of people have misconceived.
So we say God is love. OK, well, God is love.
And then that precludes that he can have the emotion of hatred.
God has got a great emotion and he hates sin and he hates that
(23:53):
sin is defeating you and he wants you to get that victory.
So one of the things that I do when I'm coaching guys up who
are struggling with any, any number of issues, John, is I'll
ask them, have you come to the point where you despise, not
(24:13):
yourself, but the sin that keepslooping back into your life?
And what I've found is that people who are genuinely sick
and tired of being sick and tired, I'm talking ticked off,
angry, and are ready to get footstomp, and I mean throw
(24:35):
something across the room mad. Why am I getting killed in this
area again? Those are the people that are
ready to change. But until you hate what is
killing you, I don't even think you're in a position spiritually
to change. This whole podcast that we're
doing is kind of an exercise of futility.
(24:55):
But if you can get that, if you can get that emotion and join
God in that emotion of hatred for what's holding you back,
man, now you're positioned for God to work.
Yeah, yeah, I, it's so easy, I think to just sort of sit in
church or to read the word and sort of think, yeah, I'm not
perfect, you know, to just kind of have that sort of casual
(25:18):
shrug of like, well, yeah, you know, I, I don't have it all put
together. But is it really that big a
deal, man, when you, when you just find yourself say, like you
said, I, I can think of some moments in my life where I've,
you know, I've come home and youknow, from a situation or
whatever and just thought, you know, that government, you know,
I hate that I did that. Here I go again.
(25:38):
This is, this is a repeated thing.
This is something that I continue to struggle with and
I'm sick of struggling with it. And we need to do something
about it. And that's that's when the
change really kicks in. Yeah, totally, 100%.
One of the things that you also said in the book, Carl, is
whatever you feed seems to keep coming back.
I think that's so connected to this idea, you know, that we
(25:58):
keep feeding ourselves. I think of one of the things
that CS Lewis said too, right, that he talks about the two
dogs, two dogs at war within theone we feed is the one that
wins. I've never seen that on a
T-shirt. I've often thought they'd make a
great T-shirt someday if somebody wants to make that.
But, you know, help us understand that concept.
How is it that we feed the sin in our lives so that it actually
(26:19):
comes back and and beats us? Yeah, it's, it's interesting.
I, I, my, my bride loves birds, man, and now I love them too.
But she asked me to put up some bird feeders and then I started
figuring out what they like to eat and all that.
And I've got like 2 bird feedersout in the back of our townhouse
and I've got 4 feeders in the front.
(26:41):
Two of them are suet and two of them are four.
And I and I, I get dehuffed sunflower seeds.
I mean, our birds eat really well apparently because they
love it. But here's what I here's what I
noticed. I noticed one day that when the
bird seed is gone, the birds aregone, but when the bird seed is
(27:08):
filled, the birds are there. And you might be John might be
saying, wow, we got a sharp guy here.
It's simple, but it's true. This is why we have to have a
well boundaried life. After you've been putting sin to
death, you got to have a well boundaried life because.
Yeah, I mean, if you're trying to break from a habit of my
(27:32):
whole life revolves around my 4O1K.
Let's just be honest, a lot of people are thinking, man, I've
got to have X I've got to have this.
Hold on a second, hold on. Foxes have holes, birds have
nests. The Son of Man has no place to
lay his head. Look at the birds.
God cares for them. What the world you don't doing
(27:53):
and spending all your emotion. It's a materialistic mindset.
And so if you've got your, if your 5 closest friends, if three
of them are constantly consumed with and talking about money and
finances and all that, you are not going to break.
You're, you're all you're doing is feeding that monster of
earthly stuff. And so you might need to
(28:16):
separate yourself from a couple of those friends, begin to bring
some friends that understand theabiding life in Christ a little
closer to you. So you get freed with that.
And that goes with gossiping andlobbies after church.
Get some new friends, man. It goes with substance abuse.
Get some new people around you. So there's ways that we can not
(28:38):
feed what's been killing us so that it doesn't keep coming
back. Yeah.
Hey, man, you know, it's, it's wild.
I actually for a period of time I knew a a pastor and a handful
of pastors that he he he would share with us at group meetings
that he would call every single day to check on his four O 1K
plan. Every single day he would call
(28:59):
to to check that number. You know, I guess he didn't
access it through the Internet, but he he would make that phone
call and ask what the number wasand he would track every single
day. And he would, you know, he would
talk about it with with this group of guys.
And yeah, it's same idea. If you can get out of that
circle, out of that habit, away from where that is always being
talked about, it can really change your perspective.
It's amazing. So.
(29:20):
Yeah. Well, Brother Carl, this has
been such a fantastic conversation, such an
encouragement about how we can despise, fight, kill, have
victory over our sin. And we've got hope in the Gospel
that it's not all on us. Like you said, Jesus is the one
who died on the cross. Take away our sin.
The Holy Spirit is the one who dwells inside of us to help us
fight against our sin and have victory.
(29:40):
And one day Jesus will return and we will have final victory.
Can't wait. For that day, it's one of.
Those things, you know, and I'm trying to think of which hymn
that is off the top of my head, but that when we sing it, I
think, you know, there's a verseabout that day when we will be
free from sinning yes and I've often thought, you know, it's
like it wasn't until sort of further in my Christian life
(30:01):
that I really appreciated that verse.
You know, there's I, I think right away in the Christian
life, you appreciate verses in songs that are all about, you
know, no more tears, no more pain, you know, those kind of
things. That all sounds great.
But I think it takes a little while before you, you know,
there's a level of maturity before you say, yeah, free from
sin. I can't wait for that day.
I long for that day. If you if you long for that day,
(30:24):
that means that today you have greater potential for not being
a slave to sin. Yeah, Amen.
Well, folks, great book. Killing sin, conquer the one
thing that is defeating you. Carl Clawson, thank you so much
for joining us today, everybody.We hope you have an awesome
week.
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