December 2, 2025 • 29 mins
What does it really look like to raise children who love and follow Jesus?
In this episode, host Jon Delger, the Executive Pastor of the Peace Family of Churches, talks with Bob Hartman, former pastor and best-selling author for the YouVersion Bible App for Kids, about practical, thoughtful ways to disciple your children.
Bob shares insights on guiding kids in their faith, cultivating a gospel-centered home, and helping them grow in their walk with Christ.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
Hey everyone, welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast for
answer questions about the Christian faith in plain
language. Today we're going to get to hear
an interview that I had with BobHartman, a former pastor and
best selling author of the You Version Bible App for kids.
EU Version Bible app, by the way, just hit a billion
downloads. What an incredible impact it's
(00:29):
had on our world, making the Bible available for people to
read. It's a great conversation.
Glad to share with you today. Well, today on that's a good
question we have with us, Bob Hartman.
(00:49):
Bob is an ordained pastor. He's written over 100 books.
He's the author of the You Version Bible app for kids,
which has been downloaded over 120 million times.
And recently he's written the Kingdom and the King Storybook
Bible. So Bob, thanks so much for
joining us on the show. Great to have you with us.
John, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
(01:10):
Yeah. So as we get started, Bob, you
want to tell us a little bit about yourself?
Yeah, I mean, I, as you said, I've written over 100 books.
They're not all retellings of Bible stories, but most of them
are. I'm from Pittsburgh, PA,
originally, but I've lived in England on and off for the last
40 some years, 45 years or so. So I've been in this part of
(01:32):
England, just near Bath in the Southwest, for about 20 years.
Wow, that's great. Well, you still sound like
you're from Pittsburgh. You haven't haven't adopted that
English accent yet over 40 years.
Well, one of the reasons that I'm here at the moment is to to
promote a lot of the books that have been published by English
(01:52):
publishing companies. And so I go to schools and
children in schools here love tohear an American accent.
So yeah, I mean, much like kids in the US would want to hear a
British. Accent.
That's funny. I'm I'm always jealous of the
British accent. You know, it seems like, you
know, people over here, we we'rejust captivated by the British
accent. So are they captivated by an
American accent over there? They are, they love it.
(02:15):
They really do. People love to just kind of, you
know, when they hear you in the streets or you're talking to
somebody in a store, you know, they love to stop you and ask
where you're from and you know, want to know it goes.
It's brilliant. So yes, they love to do.
That well, that's great. That's so funny.
Good. Well, hey Bob, you are a
lifelong storyteller, so I wouldjust love to hear what is it
(02:36):
about stories that captivates about the human mind so much,
and especially to help us communicate the truth of the
Bible? What is it about stories that
does that? Well, stories fundamentally how
we communicate with one another.I mean, nobody comes home from
work at the end of the day and, you know, throws a load of
statistics at their, you know, significant other.
You know, generally speaking, you say, well, this happened at
(02:58):
work today or this happened on the way to work.
You tell a story. I mean, it's how we relate to
one another. So it just makes sense that when
it comes to passing on the Christian faith stories at the
heart of it, I mean, most of theBible is narrative in nature,
isn't it? I mean, most of the Old
Testament is, certainly the Gospels are in the book of Acts.
So time and time again, God gives us some understanding of
(03:21):
who he is through story. And in Psalm 78, it actually
says, you know, somebody told mystory to you.
I'd just like you to pass it on to the next generation because
so much of the truth of who God is is there in the stories that
Christians have shared, you know, as long as there.
Been Christians. Yeah, Amen.
So Bob, one of the major projects that you've worked on
(03:44):
is the you Version Bible app forkids and my family has been
incredibly blessed by that resource.
So we love to read Bible storiesto our kids, but we've got 4
kids and sometimes it's just, you know, they need the ability
to sit there kind of on their own and be able to look at
something. And they especially love being
able to interact with it. That app has a ton of
interaction, you know, kind of games and, and different things
(04:05):
that help them get through the story.
And so it's been just amazing tolet them have that in their
hands and be able to know that, you know, they're not cruising
YouTube or something like that. They're they're at a in a Bible
app and they're hearing stories from Scripture.
It's been an amazing thing. Bob, why do you think that that
software has resonated so much with people, been downloaded
(04:27):
over 120 million times? Yeah, I mean, I'm just really
grateful to have been a part of that project.
I was doing something for Hope International initially wrote
some stuff for a website they had, and then they came to me
and said, could you take all these stories you've written for
us and shrink them down to about30 words per page?
And I thought, well, what? Let's see if that's workable.
(04:49):
I did it and then they said thatit was part of this U version
project that they had been askedto do.
So I didn't even know what I wasdoing initially.
That happens a lot, but it was great.
It was great to be involved in the project and, and obviously
I'm just a piece of it. I was grateful to be able to
write the stories. But you talk about the
(05:11):
interactive side of it, and I think, I think a, it's
incredible that it worked so well.
And it does. But also given how rapidly
computer games and those kinds of things change, the fact that
it's been, what, 12 years since it was released is, is
remarkable that it continues to be as effective as it was at the
(05:35):
start. And I think it's because it's
all really quite simple. I mean, the story is quite
simple. The illustrations are just very
basic but very beautifully done.And the interactive devices just
keep working. My 2 youngest granddaughters
live in the US and every time I'm over there, they're how old
(05:56):
are they now, 79? They're like, grandpa, can we,
can we look at your Bible app, please?
Can we play your Bible game, grandpa?
And, and they just absolutely love it and they just go off and
you're right, they're getting Bible stories for, I don't know,
half an hour, an hour, as long as they want to kind of, you
know, play around with it and they're having a great time and
they're getting God's word. It's perfect.
(06:17):
It's. Right.
Oh that's beautiful. That's awesome to hear about
your grandkids enjoying it. What an experience that is You
know you wrote it and your grandkids are playing with it.
That's amazing. So that so.
Oh, yeah, it's it's great, you know.
Oh, Grandpa, we want to play with your app.
Oh, fantastic. Just makes.
You feel so that's awesome. So, so on the note of the
interactive elements of the app,that makes me think of a
(06:38):
challenge that I think so many of us, parents and grandparents
or even Sunday school teachers face, which is how do you hold
the attention of kids? So when we're teaching the Bible
ourselves, we're trying to read a Bible story ourselves to our
kids. What are some ways that you find
are great for helping, you know,a 5 year old, a six year old,
these younger kids to have theirattention held while we're
(06:59):
trying to share God's Word with them?
Well, again, I think interactivity is at the heart of
it. So amongst those hundred books
I've written, I've written several that have specifically
got interactive devices within them so that as you read them,
you're encouraged to have a child repeat a line or do an
action or do something that kindof help you to bring the story
(07:22):
to life. Because it's hard.
Storytelling really is a community activity.
So really, we invite our kids into a place where we share a
story and bring it to life together.
And so in the case of some of those books, that interactive
device is there. In the case of something like
the Kingdom and the King storybook, it's pretty obvious
(07:43):
where you can get them to, you know, to move about and to help
you to bring the story to life. I mean, I did the stealing of
the storm story with a with an audience just a few days ago.
And again, you know, when it comes to sort of rocking back
and forth and having a really kind of calm see thing and then
maybe snoring with Jesus as he'sin the back of the boat.
(08:03):
I think helping to get them engaged with the story as they
build the story with you is the best way to keep their
attention. Yeah.
Oh, that's, that's, that's actually, that's really
important advice. So for us as parents, you know,
don't just sit down and think that we can read the Bible story
to the kids, you know, read it. You know, these are very short
stories. It doesn't take a ton of time,
but, you know, read it ahead of time.
(08:24):
And maybe just think a little bit about how can I have the
kids interact, get up and down, make noises with me, you know,
those kind of interactions. That's such, that's such good
advice. I think it's important to
remember, and I tell this when Itrain storytellers, that that
storytelling is fundamentally A playful activity.
Storytelling really is play. And I know obviously there are
(08:48):
serious stories that we tell, but, you know, in many cases it
really is just a way of making yourself a character and the
kids a character, and you're actually kind of playing around
with the characters in the storytogether.
And if you approach it in a playful manner, then it doesn't
feel like you're kind of enforcing something on them.
It means instead that you're inviting them into, I don't
(09:09):
know, the same place you'd invite them if you were playing
with their cars or their dolls or anything else.
Right, right. I like that.
That's really good. So when you're telling a very
familiar story like a Noah or like a David, something like
that, how do you how do you kindof balance the, you know, you've
got to be faithful to the original story that we know so
well and yet you want to keep itfresh and engaging?
(09:30):
How do you try to balance that? And you're absolutely right.
You have to be faithful to what we know about the story and to
what we know about the intent ofthe story.
I think that's absolutely key. But within that there, there are
spaces, I think, for a bit of sacred imagining that can go on.
So in some cases, yeah, you know, so in some cases, you
(09:51):
might want to pretend to be a character in the story who maybe
isn't mentioned, but obviously there's a crowd in a given
story. Well, maybe you tell the story
from that perspective. In the same way the interactive
devices can help the story to bedifferent.
So by actually approaching the story from a different point of
view, by bringing a different character to life, or by
(10:11):
creating the interactive devices, you take a story that
people have heard maybe a million times and make it fresh
again. Because then what they're saying
to themselves is, oh, well, I never heard anybody do it this
way before. I wonder if we're going to end
up in the same place we usually do.
And I know. That's awesome.
I love that. So thinking about how churches
(10:34):
do, I'm kind of going back and forth here between family and
church, but but as we think about both, you know, discipling
in the home and discipling in the church.
So the average American church or even where you're at in the
UK, you know, the average, the average church in in kind of the
Western world. Where do you think that we're
doing really well? And where do you think that
we're struggling, not doing so well in trying to pass these
(10:56):
Bible stories on to our kids? I think that I think maybe we
take too much for granted. You've probably been in a, in a,
in a church service and the pastor says, well, of course we
all know the story of and then you know, David and Goliath, or
(11:18):
we all know the story of Zacchaeus.
And every time somebody says that, I say to myself, you know
what? Maybe we don't, or maybe it's
been so long since someone took the time to read through it and
define the nuances and to tell it well that we've kind of lost
sight about what it's all about.So what I always tell people
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when they're trying to tell a Bible story in church is to say,
first of all, go read it in the Bible.
And I know that seems ridiculous, but sometimes people
just kind of retell a Bible story off the top of their head,
or as I say, they they kind of assume everybody knows it.
And I think too, I think maybe where where we're failing is not
(12:03):
actually honoring the text by spending enough time with it, by
drilling down into it, by tryingto understand the characters
like you would with any piece ofliterature and then trying to
bring it back to life From that point of view.
I think you honor what God has given us in his story by
actually spending time with it first and saying to yourself,
(12:24):
well, who are these people? Lots of times these days when
I'm working with kids, I'll say to them, if you could ask X
character any question, what would you ask them?
Because again, there is a tendency to treat Bible
characters almost like they're flannel graph, you know what I
mean? But of course Flannel Graph is 2
dimensional and I think what we need to do is to understand the
(12:47):
characters in the Bible stories well enough that they really
become three-dimensional to us before we tell the story and to
the folks who hear the story when it comes out.
And that means spending time with them and understanding who
they are. Wow.
Yeah, definitely. I like that.
And actually, I can echo what you're saying about people not
knowing the stories. It's actually something that
we've talked about here at PeaceChurch as pastors and stuff of
(13:11):
just, you know, we're teaching in different settings and
realizing somebody's never heardthe story of David and Goliath
or of Noah and the ark, you know, You know, that's just,
that's just increasingly the case, I think.
And so, yeah, we can't assume any of that kind of knowledge,
definitely. You can't.
I mean, a friend of mine told mewhich and she was sat next to a
person in her church who had been a Christian for some time
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and the preacher was preaching on the transfiguration.
The woman turned to her and said, wasn't it nice that that
that Moses and Elijah could comealong and visit Jesus?
And she meant like, like they were still knocking around you.
Know and they'd just take them. Up the mountain to hang out with
you, you know what I mean? She didn't realize that there
was a, you know, gap of a few years there.
(13:54):
Yeah, totally. Oh man.
And. This is the person that's been a
Christian for years, so I think it's really important not to
assume that people know the stories or understand them well.
Yeah, definitely. So Speaking of that, you know
what, what have been some of thedifferences that you find when
you're telling Bible stories to kids versus adults?
(14:14):
Well, you know, it's funny, as Isaid, I, I train storytellers a
lot and loads of the stories andloads of the techniques that I
will use for children, I tend touse for adults as well.
Now teenagers, slightly different, OK, slightly
different approach. But when it comes to kids and
adults or an all age situation, generally speaking, if you keep
(14:38):
the language simple and fun and plain and you have the
interactive devices and I sometimes just ask for
permission and usually I'm givenit.
Adults respond in pretty much the same way that kids do,
sometimes even better, if you see what I mean.
I suppose I have some stories that are probably, probably,
(15:01):
probably deal with with Bible stories that maybe would not be
appropriate for kids because youcan't give enough detail to tell
the story well enough for them to get it, if you see what I
mean. So maybe there are some stories
I've written that I would only do for adults.
All right. But but on the whole, most of
the stories I find, you know, ifyou use the interactive devices
(15:23):
and you use them well and the language is plain but also
really interesting, you'll bringadults along as well.
Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to remember now if in
your table of contents, if Judahand Tamar was in was in your
most recent book here that that's one of those.
Stories, you know? No, no, Ewud and Egglon are not
in there either. No, it's yeah.
(15:43):
Right, there you go. Ewud might, we might touch on
Ewud, but only very, you know, Yeah, yeah, we kind of skirt
past, right. So some of those.
Some of those gory. Details.
Yeah, wait, so. You know.
Obviously there are some storieswhere, you know, you have to be
able to explain the story well enough so that kids have some
(16:05):
idea about what's going on. So yeah, maybe you say that for
when they're older. But on the whole, yeah, I think
you, I treat adults and kids just the same because everybody
going back to the playfulness thing, everybody wants to play,
if you see what I mean. And if you're sat there in
church and you're thinking, man,you know, this could be a bit
dull. And then somebody gets up, you
(16:25):
know, with a big, small interface and says, doesn't say
it, but basically acts like we're going to have a good time
together here. That's a nice thing, you know,
particularly when it's attached to a Bible story.
Yeah, definitely. So Speaking of some of the
gorier parts, I was actually just talking with someone this
morning. I was telling someone that I was
going to have a chance to get totalk with you about this.
And they were telling me that actually they, they didn't tell
(16:48):
me it's probably better. They didn't tell me who the
author was, But they said they recently came across a storybook
Bible that ended during Jesus's teaching ministry because it
didn't want to, it didn't want to address the hard stuff like
the cross. Now, obviously that's that's
kind of problematic, you know, because the cross is, is sort of
central to the Christian faith. Bob, how have you dealt with
(17:09):
talking about some of those harder parts that we have to
talk about? We have to teach our kids about
the cross, But it is it is a gory.
Of course it is, yes. And I just got to shake my head
at that because that's just anyway, we're just going, that's
crazy that you would try and tell the story of Jesus and
leave out death, burial and resurrection again.
(17:30):
I think it's a question of telling it well and telling it
sensitively. So as I've worked my way up
through the age range in the different books, you know, at
the very lowest, you know, age range, you would just say, look,
something very sad happened to Jesus and people do really bad
things to him, and they put him on this cross and he died.
(17:51):
But This is why he died, OK. And then maybe as you're dealing
with older children, you can be a little bit more descriptive
about the bad things that they actually did to him, OK.
But I think you just have to be sensitive to the age group as
you're just kind of moving up through the ages.
And and I mean, everybody's going to have a different, I
(18:12):
suppose, you know, level at which they're going to say this
and not that thing. But you also have to make sure
that the illustrator and and Kathleen has done a superb job
in here, that the illustrator brings that story to life in a
way that's appropriate as well. So in this particular case, you
know, it's not an up close portrait of Jesus, obviously,
(18:37):
that you know that that makes those individual wombs really,
really obvious, you know, to a young child.
But it's but it's far enough away and and cloak in a really
dark and kind of grayish kind ofa background.
It gives you a clear idea that something really sad is
happening here. So that's the best I can say.
(18:57):
I mean, something called the Lion Storyteller Bible I did 25
years ago, 30 years ago now, youknow, I just had a sad day and a
happy day. And, and actually in many
schools over here, because you can tell Bible stories in
schools here, what they will often do is tell the sad day and
the happy day together to the kids, you know, so the kids
(19:18):
aren't left hanging. Well, OK, this man learned to
love, you know, it was dead. You know, they they tell the
story together and it was designed so that they could use
it in that way. Yeah, that's great.
So you can tell Bible stories inschool there, huh?
You can indeed, because the Church of England runs, gosh,
thousands of schools across the UK.
(19:40):
So in church schools you definitely can tell them.
But for years now, and it's starting to change, but for
years now, even state schools were required to have, they were
required to have an assembly every day.
And as part of those assemblies,they were required to have some
kind of a Bible assembly that reflected the Christian faith
(20:00):
because of course, it's a state church, so there isn't a
separation of church and state. And that reflected that.
Very interesting. So I've got my shirt on right
here and this little badge, thisis a something called Open the
Book, which I've been working with for 25 years.
And we train storytellers to go into schools and to do just that
in assemblies. And over the years, we've
(20:22):
trained, I don't know, 17,000 storytellers, wow, to go into
schools and, yeah, tell God's story because that door's open.
And if that door's open, you know you'll walk through it.
That that's exactly it, right? Wherever there's an open door,
we take it. That's great.
Have you heard some stories of of kids or even families coming
to faith through hearing some ofthose?
Stories. Oh yeah.
I mean, you, yeah. You hear loads of stories from
(20:42):
the storytellers right round thecountry about the move from
school to church to faith. I mean, yes, that that
definitely happens. The other thing storytellers
will tell you is that they'll bein the local shop and a child
will tug on their mother's arm and go, look, Mommy, you know,
there's Pharaoh or look, Mommy, there's Moses or you know what I
mean, whatever the story happened to be.
(21:04):
So because most of these people are retired people, it's lovely.
So, you know, you build this relationship with the school and
the community. But yes, it's all about passing
on faith. Yeah, that's great.
Well, with Christmas time comingup not too far away here, we got
to talk a little bit about Christmas.
So what, Bob? What is your favorite part of
the Nativity story to tell? My favorite part of the nativity
(21:28):
story. Oh boy, that is, that is really
a tough one because I've, I've retold pretty much all of it
many, many, many times. I'm going to say, I'm going to
say Mary going to visit Elizabeth because it's not one
of the and of course, the Magnificat which comes out of
that. It's not one of the bits that we
(21:49):
tend to tell that much. But there's some really
interesting details in that story that I think are really
worth mentioning in this in the current climate.
I mean, it's really interesting.Do you know Tom Holland, the the
the classical historian who wrote the book Dominion?
Yes, Yeah, yeah, Dominion. OK, OK, so Holland says that the
(22:10):
the the difference that took place in the world had to do
with Jesus. He looks at the classical world,
he looks at our world. He says what made the
difference? And the difference is Jesus.
And the difference, he says, comes from the fact that
Christians believed that every human life was valuable.
Which makes the story of Mary and Elizabeth fascinating
because of course, the ancient Romans didn't think that unborn
(22:33):
children were valuable. OK, so they just dismissed them.
And yet Luke, who writes to the Gentiles, chooses to tell a
story where the main character is an unborn prophet and an
unborn Messiah, basically reacting to each other's
existence and two women, again, who were not, you know,
(22:55):
considered very much worthy in in that particular culture.
He chooses those two as a way ofpassing on that bit of the
story. And I think it's absolutely
fascinating that he makes that choice.
And as a matter of fact, Catalina bless her when she does
the story of the Magnificat in here.
Basically, you see Mary and Elizabeth and there's a little
Jesus in the middle of Mary and a little John in the middle of,
(23:17):
you know, kind of like you're looking through an X-ray
machine, OK, in the middle of Elizabeth.
And they're celebrating just like, you know, the two moms are
celebrating. And I just think that's a that's
a part of the nativity story that we really need to keep
telling. I like that a lot.
That's great, That's terrific. So when you're telling the
Christmas story to kids, what what do you find usually
(23:38):
surprises them or delights them the most?
I think a shepherd thing, I mean, really, when it comes
right down to it, you know what I mean, the shepherd's kind of
appearing. And that's a story that I love
to tell, and I've got umpteen different versions of it.
And I think kids genuinely get excited about that.
Yeah. I mean, I think the Annunciation
(23:58):
is a bit. I know, you know, they're trying
to get their heads around it, But the idea of the shepherds
and the sheep and the angels andthen everybody wandering off the
Bethlehem, I don't know. I think that's the one that
probably resonates the best. Oh, yeah, that makes that makes
sense. I, I think my kids would agree
with that. Yeah.
And they, they love bringing in the animals, you know that the
animals make it fun. Yes.
Yeah. Actually this year I threatened
(24:19):
to my kids that. So we in the last year, we, we
took up goat farming. Apparently we we do that now and
I told my kids we were actually on Christmas morning and I go
out and sit with the goats for Christmas morning and open our
presents. We didn't end up doing that, but
I told them we would so. That's great.
The kids love the the animals inthe story of Christmas.
Well, they do. And the nice thing, of course,
(24:39):
if you do in a nativity play, isthat when you come to that
particular story, there's reallya part for everybody.
You know, I mean, that's nobody gets left out because you can be
an animal, you know, and you canbe, you know, there in the
stable, or you can be, you know,one of the shepherds or one of
the sheep or whatever, or an Angel.
Yeah. Lots to do.
Right, right, definitely, definitely awesome.
(25:00):
Well, hey, as we wind down here,I've got a few real quick
lightning round questions for you, Bob.
I'll just I'll just ask you a couple.
Number one, what do you think isthe most underrated Bible
character? The most underrated Bible
character. Wow.
Yeah. Quick fire.
(25:20):
The most underrated Bible? Joseph, I mean, not Joseph who
becomes, you know, not Joseph inthe Old Testament, Joseph in the
New Testament. Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, we, we only have, we have very short amount of
information about him in the Bible, right?
And the assumption was that he sort of passed away at some
point before Jesus got to his adulthood.
But still, right? I think he plays a very
important part. Definitely, definitely.
(25:43):
But what's one thing your grandkids have taught you about
the faith? One thing my grandkids have
taught me about the faith they have taught me that there's
there's no question that cannot be asked My my grandkids who
live in the UK are older than the ones who live in the States.
(26:06):
So they're 1316 and 19, all right over here.
And yes, sometimes they ask hardquestions and they get me
thinking and get me wondering. And I think that's a good thing.
Yeah. I have two of them in the youth
class at church. And yeah, you know, I sometimes
(26:28):
have to be ready to think very hard about some of the things I
say and to answer some difficultquestions.
But that's probably a good thing, because they're trying to
work through the faith for themselves.
Yeah. Oh, it's always amazing how what
profound questions come out of the mouths of kids.
Definitely. All right.
Last one, if you could sit down with any Bible character besides
Jesus to ask them more about their story, who would that be?
(26:53):
Any Bible character? Oh, that is really, really
tricky. Oh, man.
Oh, that's a hard one. Oh, who would I ask?
Who would I ask? Maybe it would be Timothy.
(27:15):
Timothy. Timothy Yeah.
Because, I mean, I was a pastor 1st and, you know, there were
bits of being a pastor that I felt like I was pretty good at.
And as most pastors would tell you this, I didn't feel like I
was very good at. And so I would be sitting down
talking with a fellow pastor. Obviously, he's young, you know,
when we meet him. But it would be interesting to
see, you know, why it was Paul told him the things he did and
(27:41):
how things kind of went from there, you know, in the churches
he was involved with. Yeah.
So it would have to be Timothy. Yeah.
Wow, that's a good one. I like that.
Yeah, as a as a pastor myself, Ican relate to that, that, you
know, he's one of those, he's one of the first guys to, you
know, he's getting the instruction from Paul, but then
he's got to go do it and, and make it happen.
He's out there on his own. And, you know, kind of like us,
right, where we're, we're takingthe instructions from Paul and
(28:03):
Jesus and then the Bible and we're just, we're just trying to
do this thing called church. Yeah.
That'd be really interesting to hear.
It's sort of the first generation of pastors after the
apostles. Well, exactly.
I was thinking about just the other day because one of my
daily devotions, it was a passage from Timothy.
I thought, wow, yeah. What What?
I mean, I know what I did every day when I was a pastor.
(28:24):
Is that what he did? I, I, I suspect not, right?
I suspect he probably, I don't know.
Did he do hospital visits? Did he, I what did he do?
It would be really interesting to them.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely.
Brother. It's been so good spending time
with you in this conversation. I appreciate it a ton.
The Kingdom and the King Storybook Bible.
(28:44):
What a great resource for continuing to learn and grow,
continue to teach our kids the great stories of the faith.
Also EU version Bible app for kids.
What a great resource and tool. So listeners, hope you take
advantage of each of those. And Bob, thanks so much again
for your time. We appreciate it time.
It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Hey everyone, welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast for
answer questions about the Christian faith in plain
language. Today we're going to get to hear
an interview that I had with BobHartman, a former pastor and
best selling author of the You Version Bible App for kids.
EU Version Bible app, by the way, just hit a billion
downloads. What an incredible impact it's
(00:29):
had on our world, making the Bible available for people to
read. It's a great conversation.
Glad to share with you today. Well, today on that's a good
question we have with us, Bob Hartman.
(00:49):
Bob is an ordained pastor. He's written over 100 books.
He's the author of the You Version Bible app for kids,
which has been downloaded over 120 million times.
And recently he's written the Kingdom and the King Storybook
Bible. So Bob, thanks so much for
joining us on the show. Great to have you with us.
John, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
(01:10):
Yeah. So as we get started, Bob, you
want to tell us a little bit about yourself?
Yeah, I mean, I, as you said, I've written over 100 books.
They're not all retellings of Bible stories, but most of them
are. I'm from Pittsburgh, PA,
originally, but I've lived in England on and off for the last
40 some years, 45 years or so. So I've been in this part of
(01:32):
England, just near Bath in the Southwest, for about 20 years.
Wow, that's great. Well, you still sound like
you're from Pittsburgh. You haven't haven't adopted that
English accent yet over 40 years.
Well, one of the reasons that I'm here at the moment is to to
promote a lot of the books that have been published by English
(01:52):
publishing companies. And so I go to schools and
children in schools here love tohear an American accent.
So yeah, I mean, much like kids in the US would want to hear a
British. Accent.
That's funny. I'm I'm always jealous of the
British accent. You know, it seems like, you
know, people over here, we we'rejust captivated by the British
accent. So are they captivated by an
American accent over there? They are, they love it.
(02:15):
They really do. People love to just kind of, you
know, when they hear you in the streets or you're talking to
somebody in a store, you know, they love to stop you and ask
where you're from and you know, want to know it goes.
It's brilliant. So yes, they love to do.
That well, that's great. That's so funny.
Good. Well, hey Bob, you are a
lifelong storyteller, so I wouldjust love to hear what is it
(02:36):
about stories that captivates about the human mind so much,
and especially to help us communicate the truth of the
Bible? What is it about stories that
does that? Well, stories fundamentally how
we communicate with one another.I mean, nobody comes home from
work at the end of the day and, you know, throws a load of
statistics at their, you know, significant other.
You know, generally speaking, you say, well, this happened at
(02:58):
work today or this happened on the way to work.
You tell a story. I mean, it's how we relate to
one another. So it just makes sense that when
it comes to passing on the Christian faith stories at the
heart of it, I mean, most of theBible is narrative in nature,
isn't it? I mean, most of the Old
Testament is, certainly the Gospels are in the book of Acts.
So time and time again, God gives us some understanding of
(03:21):
who he is through story. And in Psalm 78, it actually
says, you know, somebody told mystory to you.
I'd just like you to pass it on to the next generation because
so much of the truth of who God is is there in the stories that
Christians have shared, you know, as long as there.
Been Christians. Yeah, Amen.
So Bob, one of the major projects that you've worked on
(03:44):
is the you Version Bible app forkids and my family has been
incredibly blessed by that resource.
So we love to read Bible storiesto our kids, but we've got 4
kids and sometimes it's just, you know, they need the ability
to sit there kind of on their own and be able to look at
something. And they especially love being
able to interact with it. That app has a ton of
interaction, you know, kind of games and, and different things
(04:05):
that help them get through the story.
And so it's been just amazing tolet them have that in their
hands and be able to know that, you know, they're not cruising
YouTube or something like that. They're they're at a in a Bible
app and they're hearing stories from Scripture.
It's been an amazing thing. Bob, why do you think that that
software has resonated so much with people, been downloaded
(04:27):
over 120 million times? Yeah, I mean, I'm just really
grateful to have been a part of that project.
I was doing something for Hope International initially wrote
some stuff for a website they had, and then they came to me
and said, could you take all these stories you've written for
us and shrink them down to about30 words per page?
And I thought, well, what? Let's see if that's workable.
(04:49):
I did it and then they said thatit was part of this U version
project that they had been askedto do.
So I didn't even know what I wasdoing initially.
That happens a lot, but it was great.
It was great to be involved in the project and, and obviously
I'm just a piece of it. I was grateful to be able to
write the stories. But you talk about the
(05:11):
interactive side of it, and I think, I think a, it's
incredible that it worked so well.
And it does. But also given how rapidly
computer games and those kinds of things change, the fact that
it's been, what, 12 years since it was released is, is
remarkable that it continues to be as effective as it was at the
(05:35):
start. And I think it's because it's
all really quite simple. I mean, the story is quite
simple. The illustrations are just very
basic but very beautifully done.And the interactive devices just
keep working. My 2 youngest granddaughters
live in the US and every time I'm over there, they're how old
(05:56):
are they now, 79? They're like, grandpa, can we,
can we look at your Bible app, please?
Can we play your Bible game, grandpa?
And, and they just absolutely love it and they just go off and
you're right, they're getting Bible stories for, I don't know,
half an hour, an hour, as long as they want to kind of, you
know, play around with it and they're having a great time and
they're getting God's word. It's perfect.
(06:17):
It's. Right.
Oh that's beautiful. That's awesome to hear about
your grandkids enjoying it. What an experience that is You
know you wrote it and your grandkids are playing with it.
That's amazing. So that so.
Oh, yeah, it's it's great, you know.
Oh, Grandpa, we want to play with your app.
Oh, fantastic. Just makes.
You feel so that's awesome. So, so on the note of the
interactive elements of the app,that makes me think of a
(06:38):
challenge that I think so many of us, parents and grandparents
or even Sunday school teachers face, which is how do you hold
the attention of kids? So when we're teaching the Bible
ourselves, we're trying to read a Bible story ourselves to our
kids. What are some ways that you find
are great for helping, you know,a 5 year old, a six year old,
these younger kids to have theirattention held while we're
(06:59):
trying to share God's Word with them?
Well, again, I think interactivity is at the heart of
it. So amongst those hundred books
I've written, I've written several that have specifically
got interactive devices within them so that as you read them,
you're encouraged to have a child repeat a line or do an
action or do something that kindof help you to bring the story
(07:22):
to life. Because it's hard.
Storytelling really is a community activity.
So really, we invite our kids into a place where we share a
story and bring it to life together.
And so in the case of some of those books, that interactive
device is there. In the case of something like
the Kingdom and the King storybook, it's pretty obvious
(07:43):
where you can get them to, you know, to move about and to help
you to bring the story to life. I mean, I did the stealing of
the storm story with a with an audience just a few days ago.
And again, you know, when it comes to sort of rocking back
and forth and having a really kind of calm see thing and then
maybe snoring with Jesus as he'sin the back of the boat.
(08:03):
I think helping to get them engaged with the story as they
build the story with you is the best way to keep their
attention. Yeah.
Oh, that's, that's, that's actually, that's really
important advice. So for us as parents, you know,
don't just sit down and think that we can read the Bible story
to the kids, you know, read it. You know, these are very short
stories. It doesn't take a ton of time,
but, you know, read it ahead of time.
(08:24):
And maybe just think a little bit about how can I have the
kids interact, get up and down, make noises with me, you know,
those kind of interactions. That's such, that's such good
advice. I think it's important to
remember, and I tell this when Itrain storytellers, that that
storytelling is fundamentally A playful activity.
Storytelling really is play. And I know obviously there are
(08:48):
serious stories that we tell, but, you know, in many cases it
really is just a way of making yourself a character and the
kids a character, and you're actually kind of playing around
with the characters in the storytogether.
And if you approach it in a playful manner, then it doesn't
feel like you're kind of enforcing something on them.
It means instead that you're inviting them into, I don't
(09:09):
know, the same place you'd invite them if you were playing
with their cars or their dolls or anything else.
Right, right. I like that.
That's really good. So when you're telling a very
familiar story like a Noah or like a David, something like
that, how do you how do you kindof balance the, you know, you've
got to be faithful to the original story that we know so
well and yet you want to keep itfresh and engaging?
(09:30):
How do you try to balance that? And you're absolutely right.
You have to be faithful to what we know about the story and to
what we know about the intent ofthe story.
I think that's absolutely key. But within that there, there are
spaces, I think, for a bit of sacred imagining that can go on.
So in some cases, yeah, you know, so in some cases, you
(09:51):
might want to pretend to be a character in the story who maybe
isn't mentioned, but obviously there's a crowd in a given
story. Well, maybe you tell the story
from that perspective. In the same way the interactive
devices can help the story to bedifferent.
So by actually approaching the story from a different point of
view, by bringing a different character to life, or by
(10:11):
creating the interactive devices, you take a story that
people have heard maybe a million times and make it fresh
again. Because then what they're saying
to themselves is, oh, well, I never heard anybody do it this
way before. I wonder if we're going to end
up in the same place we usually do.
And I know. That's awesome.
I love that. So thinking about how churches
(10:34):
do, I'm kind of going back and forth here between family and
church, but but as we think about both, you know, discipling
in the home and discipling in the church.
So the average American church or even where you're at in the
UK, you know, the average, the average church in in kind of the
Western world. Where do you think that we're
doing really well? And where do you think that
we're struggling, not doing so well in trying to pass these
(10:56):
Bible stories on to our kids? I think that I think maybe we
take too much for granted. You've probably been in a, in a,
in a church service and the pastor says, well, of course we
all know the story of and then you know, David and Goliath, or
(11:18):
we all know the story of Zacchaeus.
And every time somebody says that, I say to myself, you know
what? Maybe we don't, or maybe it's
been so long since someone took the time to read through it and
define the nuances and to tell it well that we've kind of lost
sight about what it's all about.So what I always tell people
(11:42):
when they're trying to tell a Bible story in church is to say,
first of all, go read it in the Bible.
And I know that seems ridiculous, but sometimes people
just kind of retell a Bible story off the top of their head,
or as I say, they they kind of assume everybody knows it.
And I think too, I think maybe where where we're failing is not
(12:03):
actually honoring the text by spending enough time with it, by
drilling down into it, by tryingto understand the characters
like you would with any piece ofliterature and then trying to
bring it back to life From that point of view.
I think you honor what God has given us in his story by
actually spending time with it first and saying to yourself,
(12:24):
well, who are these people? Lots of times these days when
I'm working with kids, I'll say to them, if you could ask X
character any question, what would you ask them?
Because again, there is a tendency to treat Bible
characters almost like they're flannel graph, you know what I
mean? But of course Flannel Graph is 2
dimensional and I think what we need to do is to understand the
(12:47):
characters in the Bible stories well enough that they really
become three-dimensional to us before we tell the story and to
the folks who hear the story when it comes out.
And that means spending time with them and understanding who
they are. Wow.
Yeah, definitely. I like that.
And actually, I can echo what you're saying about people not
knowing the stories. It's actually something that
we've talked about here at PeaceChurch as pastors and stuff of
(13:11):
just, you know, we're teaching in different settings and
realizing somebody's never heardthe story of David and Goliath
or of Noah and the ark, you know, You know, that's just,
that's just increasingly the case, I think.
And so, yeah, we can't assume any of that kind of knowledge,
definitely. You can't.
I mean, a friend of mine told mewhich and she was sat next to a
person in her church who had been a Christian for some time
(13:32):
and the preacher was preaching on the transfiguration.
The woman turned to her and said, wasn't it nice that that
that Moses and Elijah could comealong and visit Jesus?
And she meant like, like they were still knocking around you.
Know and they'd just take them. Up the mountain to hang out with
you, you know what I mean? She didn't realize that there
was a, you know, gap of a few years there.
(13:54):
Yeah, totally. Oh man.
And. This is the person that's been a
Christian for years, so I think it's really important not to
assume that people know the stories or understand them well.
Yeah, definitely. So Speaking of that, you know
what, what have been some of thedifferences that you find when
you're telling Bible stories to kids versus adults?
(14:14):
Well, you know, it's funny, as Isaid, I, I train storytellers a
lot and loads of the stories andloads of the techniques that I
will use for children, I tend touse for adults as well.
Now teenagers, slightly different, OK, slightly
different approach. But when it comes to kids and
adults or an all age situation, generally speaking, if you keep
(14:38):
the language simple and fun and plain and you have the
interactive devices and I sometimes just ask for
permission and usually I'm givenit.
Adults respond in pretty much the same way that kids do,
sometimes even better, if you see what I mean.
I suppose I have some stories that are probably, probably,
(15:01):
probably deal with with Bible stories that maybe would not be
appropriate for kids because youcan't give enough detail to tell
the story well enough for them to get it, if you see what I
mean. So maybe there are some stories
I've written that I would only do for adults.
All right. But but on the whole, most of
the stories I find, you know, ifyou use the interactive devices
(15:23):
and you use them well and the language is plain but also
really interesting, you'll bringadults along as well.
Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to remember now if in
your table of contents, if Judahand Tamar was in was in your
most recent book here that that's one of those.
Stories, you know? No, no, Ewud and Egglon are not
in there either. No, it's yeah.
(15:43):
Right, there you go. Ewud might, we might touch on
Ewud, but only very, you know, Yeah, yeah, we kind of skirt
past, right. So some of those.
Some of those gory. Details.
Yeah, wait, so. You know.
Obviously there are some storieswhere, you know, you have to be
able to explain the story well enough so that kids have some
(16:05):
idea about what's going on. So yeah, maybe you say that for
when they're older. But on the whole, yeah, I think
you, I treat adults and kids just the same because everybody
going back to the playfulness thing, everybody wants to play,
if you see what I mean. And if you're sat there in
church and you're thinking, man,you know, this could be a bit
dull. And then somebody gets up, you
(16:25):
know, with a big, small interface and says, doesn't say
it, but basically acts like we're going to have a good time
together here. That's a nice thing, you know,
particularly when it's attached to a Bible story.
Yeah, definitely. So Speaking of some of the
gorier parts, I was actually just talking with someone this
morning. I was telling someone that I was
going to have a chance to get totalk with you about this.
And they were telling me that actually they, they didn't tell
(16:48):
me it's probably better. They didn't tell me who the
author was, But they said they recently came across a storybook
Bible that ended during Jesus's teaching ministry because it
didn't want to, it didn't want to address the hard stuff like
the cross. Now, obviously that's that's
kind of problematic, you know, because the cross is, is sort of
central to the Christian faith. Bob, how have you dealt with
(17:09):
talking about some of those harder parts that we have to
talk about? We have to teach our kids about
the cross, But it is it is a gory.
Of course it is, yes. And I just got to shake my head
at that because that's just anyway, we're just going, that's
crazy that you would try and tell the story of Jesus and
leave out death, burial and resurrection again.
(17:30):
I think it's a question of telling it well and telling it
sensitively. So as I've worked my way up
through the age range in the different books, you know, at
the very lowest, you know, age range, you would just say, look,
something very sad happened to Jesus and people do really bad
things to him, and they put him on this cross and he died.
(17:51):
But This is why he died, OK. And then maybe as you're dealing
with older children, you can be a little bit more descriptive
about the bad things that they actually did to him, OK.
But I think you just have to be sensitive to the age group as
you're just kind of moving up through the ages.
And and I mean, everybody's going to have a different, I
(18:12):
suppose, you know, level at which they're going to say this
and not that thing. But you also have to make sure
that the illustrator and and Kathleen has done a superb job
in here, that the illustrator brings that story to life in a
way that's appropriate as well. So in this particular case, you
know, it's not an up close portrait of Jesus, obviously,
(18:37):
that you know that that makes those individual wombs really,
really obvious, you know, to a young child.
But it's but it's far enough away and and cloak in a really
dark and kind of grayish kind ofa background.
It gives you a clear idea that something really sad is
happening here. So that's the best I can say.
(18:57):
I mean, something called the Lion Storyteller Bible I did 25
years ago, 30 years ago now, youknow, I just had a sad day and a
happy day. And, and actually in many
schools over here, because you can tell Bible stories in
schools here, what they will often do is tell the sad day and
the happy day together to the kids, you know, so the kids
(19:18):
aren't left hanging. Well, OK, this man learned to
love, you know, it was dead. You know, they they tell the
story together and it was designed so that they could use
it in that way. Yeah, that's great.
So you can tell Bible stories inschool there, huh?
You can indeed, because the Church of England runs, gosh,
thousands of schools across the UK.
(19:40):
So in church schools you definitely can tell them.
But for years now, and it's starting to change, but for
years now, even state schools were required to have, they were
required to have an assembly every day.
And as part of those assemblies,they were required to have some
kind of a Bible assembly that reflected the Christian faith
(20:00):
because of course, it's a state church, so there isn't a
separation of church and state. And that reflected that.
Very interesting. So I've got my shirt on right
here and this little badge, thisis a something called Open the
Book, which I've been working with for 25 years.
And we train storytellers to go into schools and to do just that
in assemblies. And over the years, we've
(20:22):
trained, I don't know, 17,000 storytellers, wow, to go into
schools and, yeah, tell God's story because that door's open.
And if that door's open, you know you'll walk through it.
That that's exactly it, right? Wherever there's an open door,
we take it. That's great.
Have you heard some stories of of kids or even families coming
to faith through hearing some ofthose?
Stories. Oh yeah.
I mean, you, yeah. You hear loads of stories from
(20:42):
the storytellers right round thecountry about the move from
school to church to faith. I mean, yes, that that
definitely happens. The other thing storytellers
will tell you is that they'll bein the local shop and a child
will tug on their mother's arm and go, look, Mommy, you know,
there's Pharaoh or look, Mommy, there's Moses or you know what I
mean, whatever the story happened to be.
(21:04):
So because most of these people are retired people, it's lovely.
So, you know, you build this relationship with the school and
the community. But yes, it's all about passing
on faith. Yeah, that's great.
Well, with Christmas time comingup not too far away here, we got
to talk a little bit about Christmas.
So what, Bob? What is your favorite part of
the Nativity story to tell? My favorite part of the nativity
(21:28):
story. Oh boy, that is, that is really
a tough one because I've, I've retold pretty much all of it
many, many, many times. I'm going to say, I'm going to
say Mary going to visit Elizabeth because it's not one
of the and of course, the Magnificat which comes out of
that. It's not one of the bits that we
(21:49):
tend to tell that much. But there's some really
interesting details in that story that I think are really
worth mentioning in this in the current climate.
I mean, it's really interesting.Do you know Tom Holland, the the
the classical historian who wrote the book Dominion?
Yes, Yeah, yeah, Dominion. OK, OK, so Holland says that the
(22:10):
the the difference that took place in the world had to do
with Jesus. He looks at the classical world,
he looks at our world. He says what made the
difference? And the difference is Jesus.
And the difference, he says, comes from the fact that
Christians believed that every human life was valuable.
Which makes the story of Mary and Elizabeth fascinating
because of course, the ancient Romans didn't think that unborn
(22:33):
children were valuable. OK, so they just dismissed them.
And yet Luke, who writes to the Gentiles, chooses to tell a
story where the main character is an unborn prophet and an
unborn Messiah, basically reacting to each other's
existence and two women, again, who were not, you know,
(22:55):
considered very much worthy in in that particular culture.
He chooses those two as a way ofpassing on that bit of the
story. And I think it's absolutely
fascinating that he makes that choice.
And as a matter of fact, Catalina bless her when she does
the story of the Magnificat in here.
Basically, you see Mary and Elizabeth and there's a little
Jesus in the middle of Mary and a little John in the middle of,
(23:17):
you know, kind of like you're looking through an X-ray
machine, OK, in the middle of Elizabeth.
And they're celebrating just like, you know, the two moms are
celebrating. And I just think that's a that's
a part of the nativity story that we really need to keep
telling. I like that a lot.
That's great, That's terrific. So when you're telling the
Christmas story to kids, what what do you find usually
(23:38):
surprises them or delights them the most?
I think a shepherd thing, I mean, really, when it comes
right down to it, you know what I mean, the shepherd's kind of
appearing. And that's a story that I love
to tell, and I've got umpteen different versions of it.
And I think kids genuinely get excited about that.
Yeah. I mean, I think the Annunciation
(23:58):
is a bit. I know, you know, they're trying
to get their heads around it, But the idea of the shepherds
and the sheep and the angels andthen everybody wandering off the
Bethlehem, I don't know. I think that's the one that
probably resonates the best. Oh, yeah, that makes that makes
sense. I, I think my kids would agree
with that. Yeah.
And they, they love bringing in the animals, you know that the
animals make it fun. Yes.
Yeah. Actually this year I threatened
(24:19):
to my kids that. So we in the last year, we, we
took up goat farming. Apparently we we do that now and
I told my kids we were actually on Christmas morning and I go
out and sit with the goats for Christmas morning and open our
presents. We didn't end up doing that, but
I told them we would so. That's great.
The kids love the the animals inthe story of Christmas.
Well, they do. And the nice thing, of course,
(24:39):
if you do in a nativity play, isthat when you come to that
particular story, there's reallya part for everybody.
You know, I mean, that's nobody gets left out because you can be
an animal, you know, and you canbe, you know, there in the
stable, or you can be, you know,one of the shepherds or one of
the sheep or whatever, or an Angel.
Yeah. Lots to do.
Right, right, definitely, definitely awesome.
(25:00):
Well, hey, as we wind down here,I've got a few real quick
lightning round questions for you, Bob.
I'll just I'll just ask you a couple.
Number one, what do you think isthe most underrated Bible
character? The most underrated Bible
character. Wow.
Yeah. Quick fire.
(25:20):
The most underrated Bible? Joseph, I mean, not Joseph who
becomes, you know, not Joseph inthe Old Testament, Joseph in the
New Testament. Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, we, we only have, we have very short amount of
information about him in the Bible, right?
And the assumption was that he sort of passed away at some
point before Jesus got to his adulthood.
But still, right? I think he plays a very
important part. Definitely, definitely.
(25:43):
But what's one thing your grandkids have taught you about
the faith? One thing my grandkids have
taught me about the faith they have taught me that there's
there's no question that cannot be asked My my grandkids who
live in the UK are older than the ones who live in the States.
(26:06):
So they're 1316 and 19, all right over here.
And yes, sometimes they ask hardquestions and they get me
thinking and get me wondering. And I think that's a good thing.
Yeah. I have two of them in the youth
class at church. And yeah, you know, I sometimes
(26:28):
have to be ready to think very hard about some of the things I
say and to answer some difficultquestions.
But that's probably a good thing, because they're trying to
work through the faith for themselves.
Yeah. Oh, it's always amazing how what
profound questions come out of the mouths of kids.
Definitely. All right.
Last one, if you could sit down with any Bible character besides
Jesus to ask them more about their story, who would that be?
(26:53):
Any Bible character? Oh, that is really, really
tricky. Oh, man.
Oh, that's a hard one. Oh, who would I ask?
Who would I ask? Maybe it would be Timothy.
(27:15):
Timothy. Timothy Yeah.
Because, I mean, I was a pastor 1st and, you know, there were
bits of being a pastor that I felt like I was pretty good at.
And as most pastors would tell you this, I didn't feel like I
was very good at. And so I would be sitting down
talking with a fellow pastor. Obviously, he's young, you know,
when we meet him. But it would be interesting to
see, you know, why it was Paul told him the things he did and
(27:41):
how things kind of went from there, you know, in the churches
he was involved with. Yeah.
So it would have to be Timothy. Yeah.
Wow, that's a good one. I like that.
Yeah, as a as a pastor myself, Ican relate to that, that, you
know, he's one of those, he's one of the first guys to, you
know, he's getting the instruction from Paul, but then
he's got to go do it and, and make it happen.
He's out there on his own. And, you know, kind of like us,
right, where we're, we're takingthe instructions from Paul and
(28:03):
Jesus and then the Bible and we're just, we're just trying to
do this thing called church. Yeah.
That'd be really interesting to hear.
It's sort of the first generation of pastors after the
apostles. Well, exactly.
I was thinking about just the other day because one of my
daily devotions, it was a passage from Timothy.
I thought, wow, yeah. What What?
I mean, I know what I did every day when I was a pastor.
(28:24):
Is that what he did? I, I, I suspect not, right?
I suspect he probably, I don't know.
Did he do hospital visits? Did he, I what did he do?
It would be really interesting to them.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely.
Brother. It's been so good spending time
with you in this conversation. I appreciate it a ton.
The Kingdom and the King Storybook Bible.
(28:44):
What a great resource for continuing to learn and grow,
continue to teach our kids the great stories of the faith.
Also EU version Bible app for kids.
What a great resource and tool. So listeners, hope you take
advantage of each of those. And Bob, thanks so much again
for your time. We appreciate it time.
It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
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