Ep 22: Noah Makaiwi - Hidden Heroes: Volunteer Belayers - That's Not Real Climbing

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We do belay stretches.

(00:01):
We stretch our neck.
So it's always like the first climber
has like a little bit of like,
do I remember how to do this?
B category climbers prefer not to have like a super soft
and like graceful fall.
They would rather just be caught
so they can feel that the rope is catching them.
There was one climber that made contact with the ground
from like the second or third bolt.

(00:23):
Welcome to another episode
of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast.
I'm your host Jinni,
and I'm excited to introduce my guest for today,
Noah Makaiwi.
Noah is the assistant belay coordinator at USA Climbing,
and he has volunteered belayed nationally
and internationally at IFSC Youth Worlds in 2022.
In this episode, we'll learn about

(00:44):
how to get into volunteer belaying,
some interesting tidbits on belay devices
and catching falls that you may not have thought about before,
what some of the differences are between belaying
for different pair climbing classifications,
and some of the bad catches and falls
that he has had to witness.
Hope you enjoy this episode with Noah.

(01:05):
["The Bling World"]
A lot of the audience is international,
and I think even in general,
people don't really know too much about the belaying world,
so I think this will be a good opportunity

(01:25):
to get into that stuff.
But before we get into the details of that,
how did you get into climbing and volunteering and belaying?
Yeah, so starting with climbing,
I've only been climbing for coming up
to five years in December,
so I haven't been climbing for too long.

(01:47):
I started before that just like in the outdoors.
I did canyoneering,
which kind of ties into belaying a little bit,
but canyoneering, just like slot canyons and rappelling
and going down very narrow sandstone,
was where I started of like,
oh, this is really cool,

(02:08):
just like high stress adventure outdoors
then leaning towards.
Yeah, just like got a gym membership off a whim
of like being a Coloradan,
you kind of are obligated to participate
in outdoor recreation,
and climbing is one of those things
that you sometimes, some people will participate in.

(02:31):
So I had a lot of friends that were into climbing,
and then I just thought, I think I would enjoy this.
I like canyoneering, I like,
I have rope technique already baseline.
So moved from that to then climbing,
and then just fell in love with the ways
that the community interacted with itself,
and then with the outdoors is what made me stick.

(02:55):
And then getting into competition belaying was my gym,
but as a member at, they had a regional,
or it was kind of a divisional event.
It was weird because it was like right after COVID,
so in 2021, I think it was May or June of 2021,
I just was a random volunteer on a signup genius,

(03:19):
and-
It's often like that.
Yeah, I initially was not picked to belay,
like the head belayer who became my mentor
after a little bit, Sil Hulbert was like,
hey, we had a really crazy round last round,
and I asked the belayer from last session

(03:40):
to stick around for the second session,
and I sadly like because of just the climate
of the competition, I really don't have a space for you,
and I thought, okay, great, I guess I'll just go home,
like I'd prepared for belaying that day,
and then I was like, okay, bummer,

(04:02):
maybe I'll see something else that I could do,
and then I turned back around,
and I said, I really wanna do this actually,
I've seen competition climbing,
yeah, I really wanna belay,
I would like to belay maybe after this event nationally,
and he said, I don't know,
I'll see if I can get you on the team,

(04:22):
and then his daughter bowed out from that round,
and then he was like, hey, my daughter didn't wanna belay
this round, so we have a spot for you if you wanna-
Okay, great, like this seems super fun,
and then I had like, I had a really good round
my first round using a Grigri,

(04:43):
which we'll get into belaying to my sis later,
I'm pretty sure, but yeah, I was using a Grigri
and giving soft catches, I remember there was one athlete,
like as I was performing a catch,
we collided a little bit, but overall, he was like,
yeah, you have really good rope control,
you don't short rope, you provide soft catches,

(05:06):
this seems good enough for me,
I'll give you a word for the national crew,
so that's where it started was that one event.
That was fast. Just signing up.
Like what was the initial reason why he didn't want you
to belay at first, like just because,
I guess I don't really get why,

(05:27):
because the round was crazy,
they wanted to keep the same belayers for the second round.
Yeah, this is something that happens a lot in like,
Phil Holbert was in the head belayer role,
when you're in the head belayer role,
you kind of have to, if you are coming into another round
knowing it's crazy and you have like other random people

(05:51):
from the signup genius that have signed up for this round,
like it's a lot harder to get them on the same page
than just having the people from the previous session
belay for the next round of like,
hey, there's a lot of safety hazards,
I would rather the people that are familiar
with the safety hazards stay on their route
for the next round rather than having to reorient

(06:12):
the whole entire new belay crew for the next session.
So I definitely understand his reasoning behind it, but.
What were some of like the safety hazards?
I think it just was like really tough catches on slab
and like weird placement of draws
and where the catch was happening.
I didn't really see it.

(06:33):
I wasn't really a part of the scene at that point.
I just had belayed that one round
and then, yeah.
So I wasn't aware of what like safety
or just like parts of the previous round
that made it really challenging for this next round
for me to possibly not get picked.
But overall everything worked out

(06:54):
and yeah, it's Alina's fault that I'm here.
Ah, okay.
So I think that's pretty funny.
Well, it's kind of interesting.
I guess I find it like pretty ballsy
that you signed up to belay
and then like explicitly said that you wanted to belay
when you got turned away.

(07:14):
Cause I think I've like volunteered in the past
through like signup genius
and you can sign up to belay and stuff.
But I was like, I feel like this is something
that should require some sort of, I don't know,
course or clinic just to like keep things consistent.

(07:35):
So I just signed up for judging instead
or something like that,
which seems a little bit less dangerous and risky.
So it's interesting that you, I don't know,
really wanted to do it so badly.
I had been told I was a good belayer.
So I was like, yeah, I think it'd be cool to try it
in a competition setting.

(07:55):
Like, I don't know.
I don't know what to think about it.
Yeah.
And possibly that's just me speaking
into the just my privilege, but also I think I,
I did kind of know that I deserve to be there
in terms of like, yeah, I'm a good belayer.
I really want to try.
I want to put in the work,

(08:16):
which then also helped me get onto the team.
So you started out, I guess, with no experience
and then you kind of made your way in there.
Now that comp climbing is a little bit more popular,
I guess.
Do you, are there ever going to be like courses

(08:36):
or like qualifications that you need
to become like a volunteer belayer?
Yeah.
So a lot of what has developed over time,
like when I started, it was just me signing up
on a signup genius for those that aren't familiar.
It's just like a Google form that you can just add

(08:57):
your name of, hey, I want to judge for this round.
Or I want to help an ISO during this time slot.
That's where the belayers would come from is just like
either a parent that wanted to volunteer
to help out with it or just for me was,

(09:18):
I just wanted to belay.
Yeah. So that's what it started.
And then it's taken time to develop
the belay program to then be something where
if you are working like regionals or divisionals event,
it's very helpful to have endorsements.

(09:38):
We don't have a certification system,
something to clear pretty readily.
We don't certify people.
What we do is we have vetted people, vet people.
So people that have a lot of experience
throughout all disciplines,
like just going into how the series

(10:01):
in USA climbing is broken down.
A lot of it starts in the youth series,
which is, it's like an IFSC for its own country
where it's a big federation with small divisions
and regions or divisions then broken down into regions.
So there's, I believe there's 18 regions.

(10:25):
And all of the United States, which is huge.
So with the youth series,
it's being broken down into 18 regions
that then go into divisionals
and then divisionals go into nationals for use.
The way that we've broken down endorsement for belaying

(10:47):
is people that have belayed at divisional events
have more say or have more endorsement
than people that have no experience.
Like for me, if I had just randomly signed up
for national events, I would probably be turned away.
But because I had experienced at a divisional event,
I was able to be on a national team

(11:08):
within that same year of 2021.
So yeah, kind of, I don't know
if that's fully answering your question,
but it used to be,
it used to be just parents of athletes
signing up to volunteer to belay for whatever reason.

(11:29):
And then has now become more of a formalized system
over time, which is like,
I think it started more and more towards like 2018
of when vetting became a part of growing into
what the USA climbing national belay program looks like now.

(11:50):
So yeah, all that to say, yeah,
like there's been a lot of time to now take the space of,
okay, the people that have worked national events
can now be the people to endorse or to create teams
for regional and divisional qualifying events
before regionals to then work towards like,

(12:13):
oh, who's gonna belay for national team trials,
which is probably the most like premier event
for the top athletes of the nation.
And we like to have a lot of belay skill
because there's a lot of belay skill needed
if you're following any of national team trials
this last year.
Yeah, there was some rowdy qualification

(12:35):
and semi-final routes.
Do you feel like the current system of just like vetting
the people you know at like regionals and divisionals
is sufficient or do you feel like there needs to be
more work towards like a certification process?
I think it's hard to say a certification process would,

(12:57):
I don't think it would not help
or not serve athletes very well.
I don't know if that's where we can create
like the most like rigid standards.
Endorsement I feel like is the most helpful
because you can take a lot of people with varying abilities

(13:18):
and like belay standards or just standards
that people have for belaying differ
throughout the whole entire country.
Like working in a climbing gym, like my experience is
you'll see people that have an old school style belay
and that's like a supinated hand as their breakhand

(13:40):
and then their other hand is just sliding rope through
which is not the industry standard anymore.
So for purposes of equity, if you are giving people
with a lot of different abilities
or different understandings of belaying,
like instead of certifying them saying
they fit this exact mold, giving a little bit of leniency

(14:04):
to say like you don't have to fit this exact mold
but these are the standards that we have
like the pillars that we've made for the belay program
is safety, consistency, professionalism.
If you're following all three of those
and using kind of the techniques
and the yeah, technical safeguarding through that,

(14:26):
you're able to create an environment
where athletes are represented super well in their sport.
Yeah, so I would say certification,
I just think it's a thing on words.
I prefer endorsement because it gives a little bit
more ability for people to have different techniques

(14:49):
or like different techniques or different styles for belaying.
Yeah, I mean, I guess not everything needs
like a whole process.
And have you ever done it at like an IFSC level
or is it just like national level?
I have not traveled internationally for an IFSC event.

(15:09):
I have worked three IFSC events.
I worked two para climbing world cups
and then youth world championships in Dallas in 2022.
Awesome, so what are some of like the differences
between doing it at a local or national level

(15:31):
versus IFSC level?
Are there like more restrictions with IFSC
or is it pretty much the same?
We have standards that we try to at least represent
in the regional scene to then work towards
national and international levels.
Technically with international events
is you're supposed to use a tube style device or an ATC.

(15:56):
So a non-assisted braking device is the standard
for international events and it's a huge conversational topic.
Just because that's something that we have to fight a lot
is for us in a competition climate
to use a assisted braking device actually adds more issues

(16:20):
and more concern for safety because especially
with the styles of climbing that are happening
on the international and national scene is very, very hard.
At any point that we're catching a fall
using an assisted braking device, there's a lot more.
We have less control.

(16:40):
It's like driving a manual car, like automatic.
For like an automatic car, you're able to like press gas
and press brake.
So that's only so much control in terms of
where you're positioning someone on the wall.
So going back to the analogy is using a manual braking device

(17:01):
or an ATC, you're able to say like,
oh, there's a head wall that we're trying to lower
the climbers down into rather than spiking into the wall.
If you had an assisted braking device,
you have no control over that other than just adding
more slack into the system, which is a 50-50 chance
that it will actually engage correctly in that time.

(17:23):
So that's more of the nuances.
Yeah, you'll see us working at an IFSC event like
very rarely will there be an exception made,
especially for like when we've worked
Paraclimbing World Cups.
We have a lot less margin to make catches safe

(17:45):
for some of the athletes.
And if we're using an assisted braking device,
we have no control over that.
I didn't know there was that much of a difference
between using like an assisted one and like a regular ATC
in terms of like the catches that you can do or,
I mean, I thought it was both like for both of them,
it was just you let out some more slack or less slack.

(18:10):
So how does it make a difference like on the head wall example?
Sure.
So I think going back to like just the functions of both,
how bling works is you as a person on the ground
are modulating friction to stop the rope
and how you stop the rope is where

(18:31):
you're able to control that.
So using an assisted braking device,
it locks the rope at the time that the catch happens.
Using an ATC or an manual braking device,
you're able to let friction go into the system
instead of it just locking.
So I always use this, it's hard to like communicate it,

(18:54):
but as a visual example,
say that there's like an overhang here
and there is a quick draw that's fixed
kind of to the top of my hand.
If a climber were climbing above this
and there is this amount of rope here,
if that climber were to fall,
so say a climber were on an overhang
and they were above or run out from the clip

(19:14):
and they were to fall in a situation
where it's a locked rope, it's just a straight circle.
If you were using an ATC,
you're able to allow some friction
or some rope into that system instead of it locking.
And instead of making a perfect circular shape,
you're making more of a parabola,
which ends up contributing a lot less force to the climber

(19:36):
and negates a lot of the horizontal force
back into the wall.
So it's hard to verbally describe,
but to visually describe,
it's like, yeah, the difference between
just like swinging super hard back into the wall.

(19:56):
What we do in our technical abilities,
we're able to use what is called dynamic rope control,
where similar to rappelling,
we're using your brake hand to add friction
to the rope.
You're able to lessen some of the friction,
but also lower, slow the climber down.

(20:19):
So instead of just the rope going taut,
the rope is feeding a little bit through the device
and through the system,
so that the climber gets this super smooth.
It doesn't feel like you're being caught.
It feels like you're just done.
Like having my friends,
or like my belay friends belay me.

(20:39):
It's just, it doesn't feel like you're falling for forever.
It just feels like you're naturally just stopping your route
and then being lowered right after that.
So instead of just the rope going taut
and you sliming back into the wall.
Yeah, I guess I'm also,
I think that's something I've heard before.

(21:00):
I don't really know where,
but that belayers try to lower,
like catch and kind of lower at the same time.
I thought I heard the reasoning was that
it's to like get through people quickly.
Is that the case or is it,
I mean, I'm sure half of it is also just like a soft catch,
but is it also like,

(21:21):
you have to follow this timeliness factor?
Sometimes, yeah.
There are some event formats.
You'll see a lot on like the qualifying event,
regional and divisional scene here in the US for youth,
or for collegiate qualifying national events.
You'll see like what they call a no earlier than time.

(21:42):
So it's like,
they have this time that they're supposed to be here.
If a route is running super long,
say that like it's a slab route,
that's super technical that requires the climber
to be there for their,
almost their entire climb time of six minutes,
but that no earlier than time is like a four minute margin.
You'll have a lot of,
like if you're,

(22:03):
if they're climbing to six minutes and then you catch them
and then you slowly lower them
and then you have to pull the rope through,
you're adding like an additional minute or two.
Some, sometimes in those instances,
time is of the essence.
So like getting people down fast is helpful.
Another thing is for competition climbing,

(22:24):
they're not trying the route again.
You're just going straight into lowering.
So what we'll do is we'll perform a catch
in that catch, we'll do some lowering
using dynamic rope control.
We'll make sure that they have a safe stop
and then we'll lower them to the ground,
which is optically,
it optically looks a lot safer
than if they're just going straight from them falling

(22:46):
to like their feet on the ground,
which used to be the standard.
Sometimes that happens still.
Yeah, sometimes there's not much you can do
in terms of the margin that you have to work with.
Like if a climber is calling for rope,
like chicken clipping, you have to give it to them.
You can't like in a competition format,

(23:07):
you can't say like, no, I'm not gonna give you this rope,
I'm gonna short rope you.
It's like, no, they're asking for it.
They could possibly make a clip,
but if they don't make that clip,
there's possibility that they're gonna start heading down
at a really quick rate.
And yeah, sometimes they'll get their feet
on the ground pretty quickly,
but often it's nothing too forceful.

(23:29):
And at least it shouldn't be like,
if it is that that's an issue on the belayer or the belay team.
Okay, cool.
And I think a lot of people probably wonder
if you ever get paid to belay
or in general, how you manage to make it out
to all of these comps around the US,

(23:50):
because I mean, flights and accommodation aren't cheap.
So.
Oftentimes I do not get paid to be there.
As you work roles like head belayer
is the administrative and team lead role
that happens in a lot of events.
So the structure of it is head belayer,

(24:11):
assistant belayer and below that is line belayers.
Through national USA climbing events,
working as head belayer you get accommodations for travel,
but at the moment we don't get paid.
It's something that we do.
Especially for us on the national belayer scene,

(24:32):
like a lot of the team is made up of people
that just love the,
there is kind of a thrill that comes with belaying,
but just like the love and the craftsmanship of belaying
that they hone it to this ability that they're able to like,
yeah, I want to come out to this event.

(24:53):
So I've had the privilege to be able to go
to a lot of events because either I've done
an administrative role as head belayer
as well as a working role as head belayer
or as line belayers or people that are just belaying
the event will get potential stipends for belaying the event

(25:15):
in terms of travel.
So it is made cheaper through that,
but it is not free most of the time.
Well, it's good that a lot of people like you
have the passion for belaying at least.
And I mean, you do sometimes get like a couple of day passes
for volunteering, so there is that.
Yeah, it'll be day passes at gyms that I will be able to go

(25:39):
to again, like I wonder in the system,
like all of the systems in the nation that I've been to,
like how many day passes I've accrued.
Yeah, well, I mean, you can maybe go back one day.
Maybe.
But yeah, going into, I guess, like the logistics,
again of belaying, I guess maybe can you like walk me

(26:01):
through the process you go through from when you get
to the comp to when you're ready to belay?
Like the first climber?
Yeah, I will do this from the perspective of a head belayer.
I recently did a divisional event this last weekend,
so that's kind of fresh on my mind.
Yeah, as head belayer, there's actually a lot of preparation

(26:23):
that happens for national events and for divisional
and regional events.
You'll have more than a month of time to prepare.
For national calls, like it's important to have the head
belayer attend those meetings because they go over all
of the logistics there.
They're very familiar with how the rounds will go,

(26:44):
and it's helpful to then decide the team that you need.
So like, yeah, there's a lot of different needs
for different events.
Oftentimes, you'll see a flash format for lead
for the qualification days, and there's a lot of different
routes for that.
Sometimes there's three, and sometimes it's red point

(27:08):
modified, which not to go too in depth of what those mean,
but for flash format, climbers have the ability
to watch a route preview and then climb the route
and then go to their next route after ample rest time.
So finding out the format of each round,

(27:30):
is there qualifications, semifinals, and then finals round,
and then checking with gyms.
So a lot of the time, when we're working with national events,
USA Climbing will take the liability of the safety

(27:52):
just using the skill that they have, or like the skill
that's deployed through the belayer team.
A lot of gyms in the nation are assisted breaking device mandated.
So say like the front in Salt Lake City or Mesa Rim
in Texas or California.

(28:13):
You'll see a lot of gyms or commercial gyms go towards
this ABD mandate.
For us in our profession and our skill,
we'll actually be able to use an ATC or a tube style device instead.
So communicating that first off, because that's where we have

(28:34):
like professional catches, that's where we have like the most safe catches.
We'll communicate that.
And then after that is the tracking ropes and systems.
So that's a lot of pre-event planning is format.
Devices and then ropes.

(28:57):
And then after that is forming a team, which we have a pretty robust
belayer roster as of now.
When I started the belayer roster, I don't think existed.
There is maybe some names on the sheet, but now it's like more than
150 names of people that have been vetted to be able to be deployed

(29:22):
for events either in their local scene or for national events.
So there's five levels similar to route setting or to judging that
people are able to either be vetted by an L4 or higher to then be a part of that.
So creating the belayer team is really helpful or is the next step of the

(29:45):
process, which takes a lot of, yeah, a lot of coordination of,
okay, who is going to be in this area or who lives in this area that we can
readily call on?
Who has given them endorsement?
What can we know about their belayer technique?
And then after that is if there's no one else local that we wanted to deploy,

(30:08):
who are we going to deploy from other regions or other parts of the nation
to be a part of this event?
And I think one thing that I really appreciate with the National Belay
Coordination is we've done really well to make it equitable instead of just
like back in the day way before I was a part of it, it was an old boys club

(30:31):
of just like, oh, we know Joe Schmoe.
He can be a part of the team because he's our friend.
And now it's like it's not necessarily a group of friends.
Yeah, we do have friends that are a part of the scene, but it's just
a lot of people that are passionate about belaying that can be a part of it.
And I think like one of the things that I see a lot and I really appreciate

(30:54):
is seeing a lot of women on the belay teams.
As the program has developed, it's been less and less just like guys
belaying guys and girls belaying girls or just whatever gender for whatever
gender categories.
It's like everyone can belay everyone with the skill.
They're like when they have the appropriate skill.
So I think that's been reasonable.

(31:17):
Something that I'm hoping to see in this next or in the 2025 season is
either an all women belay team or a women led belay team because I think
that's cool.
I don't know.
I don't see that often in like a skilled climbing group.
A lot of it is like, yeah, you'll see lots of men on the scene, which is

(31:41):
not my biggest.
It's not my favorite thing, but to see a lot of just like cultures,
identities represented through the volunteers of belayers is awesome.
I think it's super cool.
I guess those are the logistics before the comp.
When you're getting ready to belay the first climber, I guess what goes into

(32:04):
preparing for the climber?
Yeah, we usually will all meet up.
We'll have a belay team meeting prior to the round or prior to the event,
just saying like, this is the importance of this round.
This is the people that are here.
This is the skill that's represented from the belay crew, but also this is
the playing field that we're working with.
So like national team trials, the needs are different than like collegiate

(32:28):
nationals.
The skill at team trials is the best of the best.
Collegiate nationals will have the best of the best for the most part, and
also like people that are still really new to the scene.
The collegiate series is getting more and more traction as climbing and
sport has become more popular.

(32:49):
So yeah, like the needs of those are very different.
For collegiate nationals, you need a lot of skill of people that are still
really new to lead climbing to people that are like the best.
So that's the thing on the route setters to create separation through the
routes themselves, but also make them safe.

(33:13):
So you'll see it's a lot easier to clip one and two than it is to clip the
first draw at national team trials.
I mean, I would think that they would make it like easier for like national
team trials or even like internationally too, just because, I don't know,

(33:34):
why not?
Yeah, I mean, well, the belay skill of the US has grown so much to the
point where like route setters can rely on us to provide safety even through
like a sketchy sequence off the deck, which we did see at the semifinals at

(33:55):
national team trials where like there's an Instagram post on our Instagram
USA belay of like me and Toby Monroe.
We were working the semifinals route.
There were a lot of climbers above first draw that fell.
And it was like a very physically challenging and demanding sequence just

(34:21):
like right off the deck.
But that's because they knew, like the route setters knew that we could
perform to that ability.
So I understand like, yeah, clip one and two could be easy, but the route
setters of USA climbing know what we can provide for them.
And also the athletes are in this place.
They know that they can rely on us to keep them safe.

(34:44):
So that like athlete belayer connection through the last few years were able
to represent like, hey, we'll keep you safe.
You've never seen me before.
You can trust me.
Yeah, I'll try to find that video and link it so that I can watch it and so
everyone else can watch it.
But OK, that's good to know.
So we had a belay team meeting.

(35:06):
We go over like the field of athletes that are going to be there, the field
of play, the round.
So kind of recapping like all of the introduction stuff that we did over
like a planning call.
And then, yeah, when the round starts, it's just like, OK, great.
We'll have these people assigned to this route, these people assigned to this

(35:29):
route.
We usually have two per route depending on how many people are able to make it.
And then, yeah, we just keep going.
So it'll start with like at tie in for like a non isolation format.
It's just people will just review that their knot looks good.
We look at a figure eight follow through with a stopper knot.

(35:52):
We look at their harness to make sure it's double backed and then it's
inappropriately.
We'll look at their leg loops.
So we'll do a quick what we call the belayers blessing.
We'll say your knot looks good.
Your harness looks good.
Just as like a quick especially for people that don't speak English as their
first language to be able to represent like, OK, this is your knot.
This is what I'm looking at.
This is your harness.
This is what I'm looking at.
You look good.

(36:13):
So we'll we'll visually demonstrate like with the arm going down, not arm
going to the side, your harness looks good.
So our belayers blessing.
We'll look at that and then we'll show our side.
So it's just a buddy check that we facilitate those.
Your stuff looks good.
This is my belay device inside making sure that it's locked.
Always showing that there's an audible click because, yeah, you want to

(36:39):
represent that as you're going off to then belay them on the route that,
yeah, I'm here.
I'm making sure that the safety is correct.
Yeah.
So, yeah, they'll start climbing.
We'll catch them.
Once we've caught them, we'll lower them pretty quickly and then we'll
detach from the system, tell them, go see your judges, and then we'll rinse

(37:02):
or repeat up to a hundred times.
Yeah.
And I was wondering, and I think this was also it also came from like a
disordered question.
Do the athletes have any options when it comes to who belays them or is it
just like randomly assigned?
Yeah.
So no.
The question or the answer to that is no.

(37:24):
The athletes have no choice in who belays them.
And the reason for that is for fairness.
And for us on the administrative side is we want to make sure that there's
fairness for the athletes themselves.
We have a lot of skills and techniques that we've developed that every single
person is having a consistent experience.

(37:46):
I guess, like, how does it provide an advantage other than, I guess, just
like being like just knowing each other and maybe feeling comfortable in that
way?
Are there like other advantages that you could get from using the same belayer?
Yeah.
I would say like it's someone you know how they're going to operate.
So you have a lot less unknown.

(38:09):
Yeah.
We won't let climbers have choice in their belayers.
We will appropriately deploy belayers to be on specified routes.
And the reason for that is we don't want to show preference to other climbers

(38:31):
if we say like, oh, we're going to have this amazing belayer just belay this
one athlete.
That athlete is probably going to perform better just due to like them
knowing this person.
But the reason why we've worked really hard on the belay scene in terms of
endorsement is at any point, if you are an athlete, you should feel confidence

(38:55):
to climb as hard as physically possible and like forget that there's a belayer
on the other side because they have so much skill.
So that's one of the real big driving factors to this coordination or this USA
climbing belay program that we've created is that at any point that a climber

(39:21):
is on the wall, they should have the right to perform as hard as possible
instead of feeling scared that their belayer on the other end is like not
performing very well to the point where they're like possibly short roped or
just like, I'm scared.
I don't know who this person is.
I don't know if they're going to catch me.

(39:43):
We want to take that fear away from them through just showing that we have the
optics of we're providing safe catches at any point.
We are doing safety checks at every moment.
We're like non-negotiable and then also just presenting ourselves professionally.
Like you'll see us on the national scene wearing dark pants and a black shirt

(40:06):
because it represents that like, hey, we dressed up for this occasion.
Like we work hard to be here and we're working hard for you to have a good
competition.
Well, so how often do belayers make, I guess I wouldn't say like silly mistakes
but or not like beginner mistakes, but just like mistakes like short roping or

(40:33):
something like that when a competition is happening?
On the national scene, no.
On the divisional and regional scene, you'll possibly see it, but like for the
student that we set for USA climbing is like you will have the best of the best
belaying you.
Like I in my career, belay career, I haven't seen anyone be short roped.

(40:57):
I haven't short roped anyone nationally.
I don't think, I mean, I don't think I've short roped anyone.
No one has called me out on it.
But like, yeah, people will start to get like, they'll start to zone a little bit
or zone out where you'll just see like their focus is not 100%.
Oftentimes on the belay or the head belayer side, I'll say like, hey, I'll

(41:19):
sub in for you.
Like go take a quick water break.
And what you'll see is just people kind of not fully paying attention to their
climber or just like, yeah, you'll, I don't know, you'll just kind of zone out
because it's just like repetitive sometimes.
I think that's the mistake, the mistake that you'll see often is just like a

(41:43):
little bit of complacency or just a little bit of like not full focus on the
climber.
But oftentimes we'll correct that very quickly.
Like, hey, you look like you need to go just like get a quick bite to eat or
get a quick snack.
This has been a super long round.
Also been for you just to give, just to give the belayer some time to rest.

(42:06):
All right.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So for, if you're like familiar with the athletes or you know sort of their
climbing style, do you ever have things in mind on like how to modify for that
athlete?
Like if a certain climber climbs really fast or maybe takes really big risks or

(42:28):
always tries like weird beta breaks or something like that?
If I know an athlete or climber, I will go through the same exact script every
single time.
Even if they like talk to me, like I'll try to keep conversation to a minimum
of like, hey, this is great music that's playing or something, not a part of the

(42:49):
competition.
Yeah, I'll engage with for a little bit, but I always will go like you'll hear
me say, my name is Noah.
I will belay you today.
Your knot looks good.
Your harness looks good.
This is my harness and device.
You're locked.
We're going to get out to the field to play, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I will do that for every single athlete regardless if I have known them for
years or if I had just met them.

(43:11):
And the reason for that is for consistency and professionalism because say you're a
climber sitting on deck and you hear like a belayer saying like, oh, hey, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, like how's your mom?
How's your dad?
How's your family?
If you're that climber on deck, you'd be like, I have nothing in common with
this belayer.
As an example, this is not something that I've experienced, hopefully not.

(43:37):
But yeah, even if I have seen them after the run, possibly I'll talk to them.
But in the middle of a round, it's like, no, I'm on.
I have my game face.
I'm not going to participate in that even if I've known them for, belayed them
for like every round and every event for the past like season.
It's like, no, it's the same experience every single time.

(43:59):
I'm belaying you after the fact.
Sure, we can talk, but yeah.
So that's the first part.
The second part in terms of like modifying belayer technique, not necessarily.
There will be more.
There will be some athletes or climbers that I'll know.
Okay, I know they will like throw rope up or they're asked for ropes super

(44:22):
quickly.
I have to be prepared for that.
So yeah, I can modify my belay just like ability of, oh, I have situational
awareness that this person looks like they're going to fall, but they're
actually not going to fall.
Or this person is chainsawing rope and I just have to like chuck rope at them.
And then I take big risks.

(44:44):
I have to provide a soft catch or safe catch for them.
Yeah, there will be some athletes that like I see.
There's one athlete that I have belayed for a handful of times and this athlete
will often ask, hey, I'm going to do a jump start.
So like almost every time, yeah, I won't name names because I don't think it's

(45:07):
my place to say it, but this athlete will always say, hey, I'm going to jump
start this.
And I'll say, okay, I'll belay you, which I think is so funny.
But yeah, there are some things to prepare for, but oftentimes the skill
that we have is we just, we're prepared for anything.
We're prepared for any sort of athlete.

(45:28):
We're prepared for any weight difference between us and an athlete.
If they're lighter or heavier, like that's where the advanced belay skill goes
is how do you provide the same exact catch for every athlete, but also, yeah,
remain professional.
Yeah, well, it's good to hear that you kind of keep things consistent in that

(45:51):
way.
I do feel like if I were an athlete who like saw someone who had like great
rapport with the belayer ahead of me, I would feel it would kind of like get in
my head that, I don't know, it would just be weird and like put me in a weird
space, I feel like.
So that makes a lot of sense.

(46:13):
It's like almost, I don't know, like a weird social game that's added to it.
Yeah, I mean, that's a big part of us on the national belay side is head game
is what we want to preserve for athletes.
Like we don't want to get into any athlete's head of like, I'm not good

(46:35):
enough for this route or blah, blah, blah.
It's like, no, we're here to support you as a belayer.
We're here to like, if they've seen us in previous rounds, they've seen that
we've caught really safely.
We have this belay skill.
So we typically use optics as a metric for like any evaluation.
If you look safe and you are safe, like you're representing the belay program

(47:01):
super well where an athlete like they can see you or a parent can see you and
see, oh, they're making sure my athlete doesn't fall to the ground.
Like, yes, that is the baseline.
But after that, it's okay.
They're providing soft catches or safe catches for every athlete.

(47:22):
And then when it gets to that tie in point, it's like, hopefully there's enough
situation or just like integrity in that situation that this climber can now
know, okay, they've seen me belay without me having to say anything.
They've seen me belay.
Hopefully they have enough like, they have enough ability to then perform as

(47:46):
hard as possible on like a 5'14 climb that they're about to get on.
Please excuse this brief intermission, but I've gotten a few requests for this.
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(48:08):
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(48:30):
Back to the show.
Quick logistical question that came to mind.
You guys don't wear those like belay glasses?
Is that like an aesthetic thing or like wouldn't it help with, I don't know,
your neck or something like that?
That's a great question.

(48:51):
So we prefer not to use belay glasses.
A lot of that has to do with like when we're working on a field where there's
more than one climb, which is every field that's not, or every round that's
not finals.
Like seeing the field of play or having as big of field of vision as possible
is so helpful.

(49:13):
Like when I'm looking at a climber and I'm using belay glasses, I only see like
three quarters of their body.
Rather than if I'm not using belay glasses, I see their whole body and then,
or for the most part, like I'll see them climbing.
And then I can also see if there's a route that's like three draws next to me,
I can see where that climber is, where they're moving.

(49:37):
If they're like being caught and their body is coming towards me, like I can
move out of the way.
When you have belay glasses, you are restricting not only the vision that you
have on the climber, but you also restrict the vision right in front of you and
kind of to the sides.
So I mean, what we'll mitigate with that is just we do belay stretches.
Oh really?

(49:58):
Oh actually.
Yeah, not like super formalized, but like before and after every round, like
make sure that you're working your neck that, because oftentimes you're just
staring straight up.
Yeah, there's little things like sometimes I'll turn my body so I look to them
sideways, so I'm not like using just direct neck on that.

(50:21):
So there are ways to minimize the pain that you'll have.
I had some pretty serious pain for the collegiate nationals qualifying round was
like, it was a long, long, long round.
It was close, it was maybe more than 100 catches per person.

(50:43):
I'm not, I can't remember exactly, but like it was staring up and it was vert
instead of overhang, which like gives you a little bit of like respite on your
neck.
But yeah, it was just vert for hours.
It was like, I think nine to four or five or something.
I don't remember exactly, but it was a lot of looking up.

(51:05):
But yeah, stretches are so good.
Stretches feel great.
Yeah, I might need to get some stretches from you because I like had a neck
injury and then it kind of like came back again and just like looking up is
kind of hard.
So I noticed that when I was doing like a little bit of belaying and then I was
like, I don't know how people do this for any longer than a session.

(51:30):
I will say belay glasses are not, like I don't hate them.
I do think they're helpful, especially if someone's projecting, but in a
competition, I don't use them.
But yeah, hopefully your neck feels better.
Well, I'll send you some stretches.
Yeah, yeah, thanks.
But okay, good to know.
I just, I had to know.

(51:51):
Okay.
And so what are some of the differences between belaying for, I guess, like
different categories of climbers, like youths versus I guess like elite
climbers versus para climbers?
Yeah, I'll start with youths.
A lot of it is like there's a lot of categories.

(52:15):
So on the regional scene, I think it goes all the way to D categories.
So there's D, C, B, A, and junior.
So there's five age categories and then there's two gender categories.
So there's 10 categories that we belay for.
With lead climbing, if you're using an assisted braking device, which a lot of

(52:41):
the gyms near me are assisted braking device mandated, catches are really,
really finicky because you're using an assisted braking device.
There's often a weight difference between you as a belayer and the athlete
you're belaying for.
So like the weight difference between me and the average youths,

(53:04):
the climber is great.
I will weigh a lot more than them.
And using an assisted braking device is more often, like if I don't jump or I
don't modulate my gravity for that climber, they're going to have a lot of
forces enacted on them.
And that could be forces back into the wall just through the rope itself.

(53:25):
So what I often will do in the youth scene is if it's an assisted braking
device mandated gym, it's like I will use a specific device or I just will jump
a lot.
So there's a lot of technique that you'll need to provide really safe catches
for the youth series.

(53:47):
When using an assisted braking or when using an ATC or an immunobreaking device,
you can use friction in the system rather than like jumping.
So oftentimes you'll see on an elite side is we won't leave the ground.
Like that's one of our big goals is we'll stay on the ground and we'll modify
the friction so that the climber is being slowed down rather than being spiked

(54:10):
into the wall.
And it doesn't look too different on the elite scene because there is a lot of
difference in climbers' physique.
Not to go too in-depth with that, but like you could have very similar
parameters in terms of which category you're going for.
The skill will be different for like an NACS or a National American Cup Series

(54:32):
event.
You'll have a lot of different skill levels represented for Open Nationals or
Yeti or Elite National Championships.
You'll see a little bit more tenured climbers.
And then for national team trials, you'll have the best of the best.

(54:55):
And then going into Paraclimbing, which I find to be the like those are my
favorite events to belay for.
It's the best.
It's such a good climbing scene because of just like, I don't know, diversity of
physical ability and just diversity of people there.
National team trials, like so the last National Team Trials, the National

(55:21):
Paraclimbing Championships was also at the same time, like just the week after.
Similar thing happened last year at Mesa River in Austin.
You'll see like National Team Trials and then the Paraclimb National
Championships.
The scene shifts right as the Paraclimbing event begins and it's just so
like beautiful and fun and loving and like, yeah, so such good energy.

(55:50):
National Team Trials is great and fun and like it's fun energy in terms of
like it's a comp.
But it's a little bit stuck up because it's like, yeah, it's the best of the
best. These are people that have like made this their career and not that
Paraclimbers haven't, but the people that are represented in Paraclimbing is

(56:11):
like, I don't know, people that are in love with the sport to the point that
they're here to connect with people of similar like they're all, yeah, we're
all just like represented very well by just really hardworking athletes.
So I think Paraclimbing is so much fun.
And then playing for those events is there's a lot of care that's needed.

(56:37):
A lot of the people that will sign up for the Paraclimbing Ballet Teams,
you'll see both people that have very little competition experience that just
love the scene and then you'll have people that love, like have a lot of
Paraclimbing experience and also just love the scene.
So it's, yeah. So there's a lot to factor into that because there are a lot of

(57:00):
categories for Para. I believe there's off the top of my head, there's like I
think 11, 10 or 11 categories and then gender categories added to that.
So there's a lot of classifications.
Yeah. Do you have to like belay differently for each type of classification,

(57:25):
like blind versus RP versus like amputee categories?
Possibly. Yeah. There's parts of it that you'll have to like have different
ways that you catch.
The feedback that we've received from previous events is E-Category climbers

(57:47):
prefer not to have like a super soft and like graceful fall.
They would rather just be caught so they can feel that the rope is catching them
rather than like for a lot of the catches that we perform, they are somewhat
senseless of like you're just kind of coming into a cloud of softness.
B-Category climbers don't necessarily love that, which we try our hardest to

(58:10):
advocate for them to give them like not a terrifying experience.
Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah. So B-Category will look a lot different in terms of like the timing of
how they will come out and for yeah, one of the big differences for seated
climbers for the seated category of athletes that don't have the like control

(58:36):
of their lower extremities, they climb so fast.
They're campus climbing. So we have two belayers per position.
After those are going to tandem belays, but you'll have a very similar
belay to a speed climber or like back in the day before autobelays, they would

(58:57):
have two belayers, one on the top side of the ATC or belay device and one on the
bottom brake side.
I never even thought about that.
Yeah, to pull that rope through. Well, we didn't think about that like my first
Paraclimbing World Cup that I worked.
I was belaying and I was belaying this athlete who is amazing.

(59:20):
He crushed, he camped us the whole route.
I was the only belayer.
I was PBussing because PBussing is the standard that we use.
As fast as physically possible and I could not keep up with his speed.
It was after that that we're like, okay, optically this looks terrible because
the rope is like there's so much slack in the system.

(59:41):
The head belayer for the event, my friend Ty, just pulled on the top side.
I pulled on the brake side very quickly and then I went into just the standard
taking out slack.
That's where we then corrected.
That's like, okay, for seated climbers, we need, if it's a tandem belay, we need
four belayers for this one athlete.

(01:00:02):
That's what we do now, which I think is very great.
I would say those are the two extremes that we see of this category needs this
and this category needs this.
Seated climbers, they climb very fast, which is so fun to watch, but also
sometimes I would say that's probably been the most stressful moments for me in

(01:00:24):
belaying is just not being able to keep up with an insanely strong seated climber.
Yeah.
I guess the tandem belaying process, do you want to go into how that works?
Yeah.
Something that's implemented into pair climbing for overhung routes is a tandem

(01:00:45):
belay.
The purpose of that is it is a cumbersome belay technique for the climber because
there's more ropes than you want.
If you were to imagine severely overhung route, which some of these athletes are
climbing in an indoor space, if you had just an anchor point at the top of the

(01:01:06):
wall and they were to fall low down on that overhang, they're going to hit the
mat very hard.
Just in terms of just the physics of it, if it's just a straight circle arc,
they're coming back to the ground.
With a tandem belay, there's a redirect low down.
There's two top ropes, one at the very top of the wall, one about a third or

(01:01:30):
halfway up the wall that will redirect the catch process.
As the climber is low down, that first or lower belayer, we call that the primary
belayer, will be the first one to catch, say that climber falls down low.
Then as they climb above that lower top rope point, then the secondary belayer,

(01:01:58):
which is on the very top of the wall, will start taking over in terms of then
performing the catch.
You'll see the primary belayer getting out slack as the climber goes up.
Then the whole entire time, the secondary belayer is taking all the slack out.
The reason for that is not to make a very challenging system for the climbers,

(01:02:24):
but to give them the ability to climb something that's very overhung without
the risk of safety.
Tandem belays are not ideal, but they do give a lot different terrain for the
athletes to climb.
Yeah, that was really interesting.
Makes sense that there's a lot of differences that pop up for

(01:02:45):
paragliding, so that was good to know.
Okay, I think those are all the logistical questions I had.
I want to go into some maybe more story-based questions or questions about
how you are actually feeling while you're belaying.

(01:03:06):
Do you ever feel nervous or pressure when you're belaying, if you're ever
worried that you'd somehow mess something up, or is it just so second
nature that that's just never even occurred to you?
It has definitely occurred to me.
I will say it doesn't happen often.
I think when I first started, there is stressors from what you'll see,

(01:03:33):
because qualification rounds almost are never broadcast, and then semi-finals
and finals are broadcast.
Different rounds have different levels of stress for me sometimes.
When I'm belaying for a qualifier round, everyone is watching in the
facility, no one else is watching externally.

(01:03:55):
I think I get a lot of fear in the qualification round, because that's
what's setting the example for the rest of the event.
We're belaying well for this event, this is how we do it, but starting with
that first climber.
It's always the first climber has a little bit of, do I remember how to do
this?
Which I do, I do remember how to do this oftentimes.

(01:04:20):
I don't know if this is a universal feeling, but the more times that I've
done it, I have a lot less stress or fear.
I can get nervous, I can get a little bit scared, but overall, I can go to
any route on any round and be like, oh, I can belay this.
I have enough glossary of catch things, or people that I've caught in my

(01:04:47):
memory that I'm able to say, this is what I did, this is what I did, or
this is how I modulate.
Just friction for this style of climber or this style of catch.
At this point, no.
My first Nationals event, yes.
I remember there were four routes, and for Nationals teams, you usually have

(01:05:08):
two routes per, or two belayers per route, so you'll have a team of eight.
We had a team of four, and it was my first Nationals event, and there was, I
think there was like 60 climbers per gender category about on average.
My first Nationals event, I'm belaying 60 times in a row, and I can't get

(01:05:30):
critique or anything really from any belayer elsewhere because they're
actively belaying the routes, and it just was going through it real fast.
That whole qualification round was nerve-racking because I was still
trying to showcase, yeah, I have ability, but also a lot of people are
watching, and then semifinals round.

(01:05:52):
Semifinals round, it's on YouTube, and you can just see how janky I look.
I was still perfecting my abilities, but yeah, it was the National American
Cup Series stop in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
I was new to the scene, and there was still a lot of belay techniques that

(01:06:16):
were not written down or implemented super well or just made into a glossary.
So it just was like, we didn't know how to describe like, okay, he isn't
doing this, this, and this.
It was just like, okay, he's new to the scene, he looks janky.
So I over time built my technique.

(01:06:40):
Yeah, that first event, super nervous.
Did you watch back to see yourself belaying on the video?
I have because at a climbing gym that I worked at, we would put just like
climbing videos on, and sometimes they would just be like USA climbing videos.

(01:07:03):
Oh, sure, yeah.
Oh, there I am.
Oh, dang it.
Like, I was there, I remember that.
And also sometimes it is helpful to look back at previous catches of like, I
know what went well, like I know what I could have done differently, or like,
this one is great, I actually really liked this catch.
Yeah.
Okay.
So that's the only reason why is like, you can still perform a lot of analysis

(01:07:25):
of like, this is what went well, this was, what did it go well?
And sometimes I will watch climbing video, or like, I will watch events for
the belaying more so than the climbers.
I just like, wow, this, this federation has a lot of good skill, or this
federation needs some work.
What's something as viewers we should like watch when it comes to belayers?

(01:07:49):
To watch, I think the catch, like, you can make catches look really good and
really safe.
And if you're like, just one of the cool things is like, if you do a catch
super well and they run out on an overhang, usually they'll swing, but if
they don't swing, like, that's good on the belayer to take into account like

(01:08:10):
the physics of everything.
And then you'll just see them like, oh, they went into space and they're down
on the ground very safely and they show to stop.
So for like the average viewer, it's, I don't know, maybe, yeah, what I look
for is just like safety.
Making sure that they're not like being slammed into the wall.
But if they're giving like soft catches, I think it's great.

(01:08:33):
Another thing for the YouTube comments to complain about if they notice a
hard catch, I guess.
Yeah.
So you mentioned previously when you, like before the competitors come out,
you say the same thing to them every time.
Are there ever any competitors who are like nervous and they want to like talk

(01:08:58):
before they climb or are most of them just like in the zone and trying to keep
focused?
It depends.
One of the first nationals event that I did in New Mexico during the finals
round, my friend Steve was there too.
We were sitting down, we were in ISO, we were sitting down, or the climber was

(01:09:19):
sitting down.
I was in the system like with my belay stuff.
And the climber just said, who are you?
I was like, I'm Noah.
And she's like, where do you live?
Like Colorado Springs.
She's like, okay.
And then my friend Steve was like, he is good.
You can trust him.
I was like, okay, cool.
But it just was a funny like question that I didn't know how to answer.

(01:09:43):
Like I actually don't really know what I'm doing here.
Like I'm just belaying.
It's a valid question though, especially if you're on the national scene.
You're like, who would, I have not seen this guy before.
Oh, okay.
Like they were familiar with the other belayers.
Oh, I see.
Okay.
Yes, they were.
They were not familiar with me.
Yeah, to go back to the question.

(01:10:05):
Yeah, you'll see some nervousness.
If it's someone that's familiar, like I'll go through the whole spiel of you're not like,
sorry, your harness looks good.
The whole like quick buddy check logistics thing.
But if they talk, like I'll try to keep talking to a minimum, but I can tell like, oh, they're just nervous.

(01:10:26):
And they're trying to like communicate about the route.
Like you'll see that on the scene a lot with different categories, like nervousness is real, especially if you are a child.
So I don't want to, I don't want to take that away from them by just ignoring them.
So I'll just, I'll engage partially in small talk.
I don't have any other than that one conversation with that one climber during finals.

(01:10:49):
I don't really have much that I, that I will hear.
Sometimes like people will be, or climbers will be snarky and be like, hi, I'm Noah. I'll belay you today.
And they'll say, hi, I'm so and so, and I'll climb for you today.
I think that's funny.
I think that's funny every single time.
Yeah.
Other than that, not conversations, pretty minimal.

(01:11:10):
Okay. Other stories.
Are there any bad falls that you've seen?
I think in the discord, someone had posted like a video once from a lead Japan cup where an athlete's shoe got clipped into a clip and she got stuck there.
I, yeah, I did see that on the discord.

(01:11:33):
I've experienced something similar, actually, not necessarily someone's shoe, but during a round of the youth world championships in Dallas.
There was a climber that was climbing up and just the position of the quick draw and just the movement of the climbers leg,

(01:11:55):
they snared their leg. So like they were dangling just from like the rope being wrapped around their leg and I was belaying actively and like I had slack in the system and I was trying to just like demonstrate to like the audience that saw me like, Hey, I not holding this climber up.
It's the leg. That's their leg that's snared on the rope itself.

(01:12:19):
I didn't understand the language. So I couldn't communicate anything. We like we're trying to get setters like setters, please, please help.
And then the coach went out into the field to play, which in the moment is great.
Like the coach went out to the field of play described what to do to the athlete.
The athlete went in direct to their harness and then I provided slack. They un-sneared their leg. They went or they un-clipped the draw from their harness and then I caught them.

(01:12:50):
That was a weird moment where it just was like, I will stay on belay. I'm not going to detach from the system, but I'm just standing here waiting for whatever to happen.
But yeah, that would that would be one of the like more surprising moments that I've had.
Is there like video of that anywhere?

(01:13:12):
There is. Yeah, I think it's a it's a live stream or like a finals feed for or semi finals feed for Youth World Championships.
But yeah, I felt bad for the climber. I was just like, yeah, you're out of Youth World and then your leg gets snared.
But it happened again that season, which was interesting to another climber in Edinburgh, I think.

(01:13:35):
Okay, I'll try to find the videos.
Yeah, so those are things that have happened or like that's an experience that I've had.
Other than that, like thankfully you won't see people deck.
Like I personally haven't seen it. I've seen people what we will sometimes call soft deck.
Like there is padding on the floor for a reason, which is very helpful.

(01:13:58):
But there are some some situations and some like physics equations where there's only that's all that can happen.
I know I got some hate comments on a reel that we posted on the belay, the USA belay of like a climber was above first draw like decently.
And then like touched the ground and you could tell that they weren't injured.

(01:14:25):
Like I still assisted the catch.
But the way that the rope was or the way that I was positioned and the climber was positioned was like I was in the corner of the wall.
I couldn't take out slack like super fast.
But the climber just like their their body was on the ground or like their legs touched the ground.

(01:14:46):
But they like I still partially caught their fall.
So that's often what you'll see.
Yeah, I don't I don't know. I don't see that happen too often.
Not to say that it hasn't happened.
I think belay or I mean climbing is inherently dangerous.
You'll always see just risk involved.

(01:15:09):
But in my personal experience, I haven't seen much in terms of like anyone being severely injured.
Thankfully, I'm very grateful for that.
But at any point, it still could happen.
What do you do when it's like before the second clip and it's like a little bit dangerous?
Like how do you mitigate the risk there?

(01:15:34):
It's just a sense of always knowing like if I could catch someone at that moment.
So between one and two is always just like you're locked in.
You're so locked in to just like no matter what catch I want to keep them like either.
I want to bring them softly to the ground or I just want to like make sure they're not touching the ground.

(01:15:55):
So thinking of OK, what is am I going to run back?
What is my escape plan? How do I how do I get out of the way of the climber?
Because oftentimes like the rope will be close to their legs.
We want to make sure that we're not flossing a climber or like giving them severe rope burn.
So oftentimes it's like we want to be out of the way if they're at the first draw and they're clipped in the first shot going to second.

(01:16:22):
They're often in a situation where it might be safer for them to come to the ground and like similar to a boulder fall
rather than like on on the competition scene we don't spot because we would rather one injured person rather than two.
And it's it's easier for us to follow that if we don't spot the climber.
So that that's something you'll see between one and two is just it's just control.

(01:16:48):
It's just knowing the knowing your route that you're believing of like OK, this is the physics of what could happen.
And this is what I can do is like an escape plan or just like a catch plan.
So that's that's what goes through my mind.
And then after two is just like, OK, cool, just make your clips and you'll you'll be fine.

(01:17:10):
Good to know. How do you I guess get selected for like an international event?
The only person that has really done it for USA Climbing is Ty Hardaway.
He was on the the ballet team for for the World Championships in Berne.
So he is yeah, he is like the he was the national ballet coordinator for USA Climbing until like just this last week or so.

(01:17:36):
It's now turned to Toby Monroe.
But Ty Hardaway is like the pioneer for a lot of a lot of just documentation, but also coordination of a lot of the nation's belayers.
And then, yeah, he worked an event in in Berne, which is very cool.

(01:17:57):
And then he's hopefully going to do some work.
It has he's now working towards developing a international program for for all of the federations to kind of align to similar standards.
We've seen a lot of success in in USA Climbing's belay program to the point where IFSC is considering.

(01:18:19):
Yeah, let's try to implement similar like like how we are represented by multiple regions. The International Federation of Sport Climbing is represented by multiple federations.
So how do we how can we kind of align both of those values?
Ty is doing a really good job with spearheading that.

(01:18:41):
So we'll see a lot of we'll hopefully see a lot more of him internationally. He is.
Yeah, it's exciting to see just because he has a lot of a lot of history and a lot of background.
Like he's he's one of the people that really brought me up in USA Climbing to this point where it's like, OK, cool.

(01:19:05):
He's now working internationally and developing what is called World Belay instead of USA Belay.
It's like it's an international thing.
Yeah, with the priorities of skills, ethics and culture.
So he would be a cool person to also talk to in terms of he has full scoop of the history, but also just the development of the program.

(01:19:31):
Yeah, Ty is super cool. So shout out to him.
I know he's going to listen to this. So. Oh, nice.
OK, well, so to get onto like the international scene, is it also just a sign of genius or is there like a is there a full process for that?
Or is it just like you got to know the right people? I think for it depends per federation.

(01:19:54):
I think it's more who you know or just like the experience that you've had.
So it's similar, maybe not as structured as USA Climbing of just like, oh, we've had this person that's belayed for this like local event.
We can endorse them to maybe work this event.
So, yeah, he worked burn.

(01:20:17):
I think it was just like a USA Climbing IFC like job or just like a development thing for belay because he also he was the.
I think he was the head belayer for the Para World Championship.
Or, yeah, he conducted the he co head belayed and he conducted a belay clinic for the Paraclimbing World Championship in burn.

(01:20:43):
So that's why he was there was to develop the Paraclimbing scene, which is also really cool because now there's more possibility of it being in the Olympics for L.A.
2028, which is so exciting and so incredible.
So, yeah, I don't know.
I don't know what other region other federations have.

(01:21:04):
I think it's more just like you have tenure or you have ability from this federation that we find you able enough.
And there's possibility that it might be sign up genius.
Awesome.
Well, I think those are the questions I had.
So we'll get into some of the discord questions.

(01:21:25):
First one.
What are some common bad practices that you have to point out and make people stop doing when they're belaying most common bad practice that I see is poor break hand technique.
So I work towards the industry standard of using P bus, which means if you're unfamiliar, pull, break under and slide.

(01:21:48):
And the reason for that is at any point you have a fixed point as you're sliding your hand.
So it adds redundancy to the system.
You'll see people and I sometimes I'm not the best at this, but we'll call it slip, slap, slop in our area versus like a quick like you'll bring your break hand up and then you'll like.

(01:22:10):
Hook your pinky finger around the rope and then you'll slide it back down. It's a very old school Alpine belay.
You'll see that and then
another.
Yeah, so you'll see I see a lot of poor break hand control. A lot of people have been using the term tunneling, which is very specific to using a Grigri. I personally don't like it because I don't find it very redundant or safe.

(01:22:42):
So I personally use P bus for anything and then people will use tunneling for using an ATC at any point that you are tunneling your hand up and someone were to fall. There's a lot less ability for you to use friction on that hand to then stop the climber and you'll probably
give yourself severe rope burn.

(01:23:03):
It's tunneling just when you like let out slack and you're just, I don't I don't even know how to describe it.
What is tunneling.
So the term I've heard the term came from a hard as easy video of like this belay technique, but it's like you have you take out the rope so you're using both your guide hand and your break hand and you're going into a like you're pulling slack out of the system position.

(01:23:30):
And then instead of taking your, your non dominant or your guide hand and bringing it under and then sliding your break hand up. You just slide your break hand up.
Oh, I don't find very safe because, like I said, at any point that someone were to fall in that instance.
If a Grigri were to fail for whatever reason, like you, there's possibility that someone could deck from that so that's something that I see a lot, I don't love.

(01:23:58):
So, just P buses industry standard, it is a little bit slower but it is the safest technique that I use.
So I will usually take, I will usually correct people on that if, if they have poor break hand usage, and then
Yeah, for for catching people won't put two hands on the lowering side which I have recently chain transitioned into doing and said I was just like, he sloppy and have one hand on the break side but putting both hands on the break side as safe as you catch someone

(01:24:35):
is the safest way to do it so that's another thing.
And then, yeah, just like position of yourself versus the climber some people will stand right under a climber climbing and if they were to fall they would fall on top of you.
Sometimes, like it's things that you, you won't initially think about but then when you like think about, oh, they were to fall right now, oh, they would be right on top of me I'm going to move over this way so body position is huge.

(01:25:01):
So, given these practices, do you feel like you're more cautious when you're the climber, and you like care a lot about who your belayer is.
I think so.
I would love to see someone belay before you let them blame me.
Just because I want to see like, okay, how safe does their belay look, which also then feeds back into the athletes perspective, like, I think my ability is very similar, not climbing ability but like my ability to recognize like good belay technique is similar to other climbers.

(01:25:38):
So, if I see someone that has sloppy XYZ, I'll say like, I'm hesitant to climb bolt one, two and three but after that I feel okay with you catching me like on the whip or something.
Yeah, there, there'll be some that I'll say like, I can tell that they'll short rope me, or I can tell that like they're hesitant. So it gives me hesitancy of performing super well so similar to athletes it's like the belayers ability affects my ability to climb.

(01:26:11):
So, I, yeah, and like I've done a lot of gym lead tests before, and I know what to look for of like, okay, we'll do this quick exercise of like take out slack give out slack, great that looks fine.
Oh, you're belay certified, cool.
But yeah, if it's someone that I've never seen before I definitely take a little bit more caution of.

(01:26:33):
I don't know who you are but if it's one of my if it's one of my belay friends, oh I will, I will climb. I will whip off the first draw and feel okay.
Okay, I know they have me.
So, yes, I will say I'm cautious to the standard gym goer but like for anyone that's on the competition belay circuit I'm like, oh this is fine, like I will have a good ride anyway. Does that answer the question?

(01:26:57):
Okay, next one. Have you ever had to remove like a volunteer belayer after seeing that they did something wrong.
Yeah, especially in the head belayer role it's like, if you see bad belay technique, like that's why we have the pillars of consistency safety and safety consistency and professionalism.

(01:27:18):
At any point that I'm like, this person is talking way too much climbers like, the climber doesn't need to have like a full on conversation about this.
Like I'll pull, I'll either correct them, like hopefully we have a conversation before you were pulled, but if it's a safety issue.

(01:27:39):
Yeah, I will pull that belayer from the round and what we'll often say is like, at any point, you could be relieved from the round. If that happens you're welcome to come and like talk to us after the round has happened so it's not like taking away from the, from the field of play or just like the integrity of the field of play.
So there, I think it was my first time I head belayed, which was a qualifying event near where I live. There was a very poor belayer who had just learned how to lead belay and used it very poorly that both short roped multiple kids and then unfortunately like the climber, there was one climber that hit that made contact with the ground.

(01:28:25):
From like the second or third bolt and it was bad and I was like, okay, great. Immediately like this is no for me.
We'll talk after the round and like, like I said, we hopefully will have ability to give correction but if it's something like that it's just an immediate pull so yes we will. I will not let someone that has hurt somebody or has been close to hurting somebody stand around because I want to keep the integrity of the belayer team that's currently there and then also just for the field of play.

(01:28:54):
So yes, that is a that is a tool we use to better people and also sometimes pulling then adds to the conversation of this is how we can work towards better belay technique.
I don't want to, I don't want people to leave a belay round not knowing any better. I want them to hopefully learn from their mistake so that they can provide a better experience for belayers.

(01:29:24):
Like I think everyone can with the work with providing work or with putting work in they're able to belay really well. It just takes practice experience to then get to that point rather than like I don't, yeah, I don't think everyone's a lost cause.
I think there is always room for growth and I try to communicate that to people that I pulled as well.

(01:29:48):
And there have been some people that I've been close to pulling or that have made a lot of correction. I'm like, wow, you've really improved over the last season like I can tell you put in work and that's, that's always very good.
I do really like that. And so with the short roping, I guess, does it ever happen to a point where people submit.

(01:30:09):
Oh my god, what's it called? Appeals. Yeah, appeals for it.
I have not experienced it in my career for belaying. I know that it can happen and usually it's happened. It happens in the moment where a climber on the wall will say short like short rope or like something along the lines or they can come down from a route and talk to a judge or a head judging official and say I've been short roped.

(01:30:37):
I personally haven't seen it in my experience, but I know, I know there's one time my friend was wrongfully called for short rope because the climber was actually stepping on the rope, which they didn't know.
So they were calling, they were pulling for rope and they couldn't pull anymore and they called for short rope and the belayer down there was just like, I have slack in the system, not calling out to the climber, but just showing like, we'll show with like a soft J like, hey, there is slack in the system.

(01:31:09):
You could pull this if you weren't stuck.
So it can happen. I haven't experienced it. And if from my friends experience it, it can happen, but it can be wrongfully called. So short roping at the skill that we have now, you often won't see even on the regional or divisional scene.

(01:31:32):
Okay, last question. Thoughts on the double Fisherman's or Yosemite Tuck. Are they used in comp climbing? Doesn't matter. Some gyms seem to take it very seriously.
Yeah, for USA climbing within the rules, like you have to tie a figure eight follow through, through both of your hard points with a safety knot at the end.

(01:31:55):
The reason for the safety knot is just to both denote that there's more than enough tail. Like if there's not enough tail, there's possibility it could untie itself. If there's a safety knot or stopper knot, that means that there is enough tail and it also won't go back through the system.
It could be anywhere from an overhand knot, which is just a standard knot, a double Fisherman's, which is kind of like a barrel knot on the working side and then a Yosemite finish or Yosemite tuck is using that tail and then tucking it back through the figurine itself.

(01:32:30):
There are ways that you can tie it incorrectly and there are ways you can tie it correctly. Visually, it's a lot harder for us, like in a quick check to see a Yosemite finish correctly done rather than a figure eight follow through with a stopper knot.
If I was recreationally climbing, I personally will use a Yosemite finish because I can untie it pretty well, but I often will just tie a regular figure eight with a little stopper.

(01:33:00):
But for competitions, you have to have a figure eight with a stopper and you'll see it on all elite athletes that they have that on their knot.
And if they don't, I question that. But yeah, more times than not, you'll see every athlete figure eight follow through.
Just because it's easy to see. It is harder to break, but it's the easiest knot to do a check on real quick.

(01:33:26):
Okay, makes sense. Cool. I think those are all the questions I had. Any closing thoughts?
Maybe this is a closing thought. What I was talking about in terms of like, canyoneering and rappelling being kind of applicable to belaying,
the technique that you use for dynamic rope control almost directly as related to rappelling because you're using the friction of your hand to lower yourself down.

(01:33:56):
At a certain speed, you're able to give yourself a consistent lower of yourself down.
So you're kind of doing that on the floor when you're using dynamic rope control to stay on the floor instead of being like lifted up or jumping up.
You kind of have the same rappel technique. So that's, I don't know if that's something that can be fished in there,
but like that's the reason why I brought up rappelling or canyoneering is like those skills are actually really helpful to use.

(01:34:24):
Like just using the friction of your hands, lowering yourself down, like you're, yeah, to visually represent it.
It's like you're kind of lowering yourself down actively as you're catching the climber,
but you're staying on the ground the whole time and the climber is just coming down in a soft, safe manner.
Awesome. Well, thank you for joining me today. Is there anything else you want to shout out or if you want to let people know where they can find you, if they have any further questions?

(01:34:53):
Yeah, just like shout outs to the people that have really impacted my belay career.
Definitely want to give thanks to Ty Hardaway who has now taken over the IFSC belay program in terms of the development.
Steve Baker, who is the uncle Steve to all of us. And then yeah, other people part of the team.

(01:35:17):
Toby Monroe, C-Lad, they're all people like you'll see on the belay team. We're all a family.
Like we care a lot about not only belaying, but we care a lot about just humanity and people.
So there are people that have really impacted me on my journey, not only like just belaying, but just personally.

(01:35:38):
Yeah, you can find, I mean, I don't post much, but I have Instagram and I post a lot about like little belaying things on Noah underscore Kiwi,
which is just a little ditty on my last name, which is Maka'iwi. Kiwi just is a little bit easier to pronounce.
And then yeah, follow USA belay if you want to see just ways to get involved. Feel free to like message USA belay.

(01:36:08):
We just put a little divisional post out of all the divisional championships that took photos of their belay teams.
So I think that's really sweet to just see like the belay teams that are represented like throughout all nine divisions of USA climbing.
Like, oh, they're humans on the other side and they're all like working towards this really cool project of serving athletes through safety, consistency and professionalism to better,

(01:36:38):
not only the sport, like as it's gaining a lot of traction for the Olympics this year, 2028 Olympics.
But it's like, yeah, these are not only parents of athletes, but just like people that are super into belaying like myself.
Yeah, we're just a little bit. It's just a fun crew of individuals that come together.

(01:36:59):
So USA belay is a very fun way to interact. We also have a belayers page on USA climbing in ways if people want to get more in depth or want to learn more.
Yeah, the community, the belayer section on the community page of USA climbing is where you find a lot of curriculum that we've developed for the public use.
So those are those are aspects I can show.

(01:37:22):
Yeah, I will link all of those below. But yeah, thank you again. It was amazing to talk to you.
Yeah, thanks so much. I appreciate it.
Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise, you are a super big climber.
If you're listening on a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you rate it five stars and you can continue the discussion on the free competition climbing discord linked in the description.

(01:37:51):
Thanks again for listening.

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Ep 22: Noah Makaiwi - Hidden Heroes: Volunteer Belayers

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 22: Noah Makaiwi - Hidden Heroes: Volunteer Belayers