Ep 28: Stanley & Zulazfar - The Pressure on IFSC Judges - That's Not Real Climbing

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The coaches will just shout at you, like for no apparent reason, you'll be like,

(00:03):
what did I do? It wasn't even my fault, you know. Official appeal has money involved.
So to my knowledge, it's 150 euros, which will be invoiced directly to your national federation.
In short, they've got somebody with traditional wisdom, which can so-called control the weather.

(00:29):
So they're like, yeah, it's all fixed. Then we were like, yeah, okay, thank you. But
the reason we have to cancel the competition was literally if you look at the boulder wall,
the water is seeping up and you can see that it's literally like the boulder was crying

(00:49):
through the bolt holes. Welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast.
I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited to announce another double guest episode with Stanley and
ZulAsfar. Stanley is an IFSC event delegate and judge chair, while Zul is officially a newly

(01:09):
minted IFSC judge. In this episode, we'll talk about how to become an IFSC judge, hear about
their relationships and interactions with athletes, coaches, and route setters. And we'll hear some
crazy stories about their judging experiences under pressure and canceling events due to rain
like in Cachao. Hope you enjoy this episode with Stanley and Zul. Stanley, you sort of recently got

(01:42):
back from Paris and also, I think you said Saudi Arabia? Yeah, Saudi Arabia as well.
How were those travels? Right. So definitely Paris. Well,
I think we were in the Olympics for the second time, but Tokyo Olympics due to COVID, we've got

(02:04):
no spectators. So it was really like a closed door event, but Paris is totally different. You
have the spectators and you have your friends being there. And then we've got some of the
coaches who are not involved in the Olympics. Some of the event organizers whom we have been

(02:27):
working with, and even the para-climbing athletes as well, they were also there.
So it was really like a gathering. Then of course, work relation-wise, we work with,
it's a very different dynamics in the Olympics compared to the World Cup. In the World Cup,

(02:47):
the organizers are applying to host the RFSC event. So we have a list of requirements and
specifications that they need to follow. But in a multi-sport event, it's totally different.
Us as the RF goes in as one flight, I'll say a vendor who's trying to showcase the sport to

(03:11):
the world, but the properties belongs to the multi-sport events organization, in this case,
the IOC. So the dynamics is quite different. Getting things done requires, I'll say, a bigger
group approval. So it's really very interesting in terms of working with the different stakeholders

(03:37):
for the two different events compared to the IFC event.
I heard from Olga, the route setter, that the organization at the Olympics was way
better than the organization at any World Cup event that she's ever done.
Definitely. I will say that in terms of the organization, it is really, really good. But of

(04:02):
course, timeline, the timeliness is something that is very important because the event is so big,
so prestigious, and the stakes are really high. Think about the VIP slide, the King of Spain that
is here. So there are certain things that we need to start to learn to tolerate. Like for example,

(04:26):
we have access to a lounge for the officials, but the lounge is not open until three days
before the competition starts. The route setting team is there seven to five days before the
competition to do route setting. So that means that the days before the lounge was open,

(04:49):
the route setters actually have some challenges trying to bring in additional drinks and food as
well. So bringing food in is okay, but you can't really bring a big can of energy drinks inside
because you'll be stopped by the security. So there are certain challenges which we need to,

(05:11):
we need to re-encounter and that we need to really try to be a bit more understanding
and work around for these restrictions. In the World Cup, we are used to sometimes having things
like, oh, if I need to get something, I go buy, I bring it in, it's fine. But here there is
restriction, there is accessibility, there is certain limitation, which I would say that if

(05:37):
you are at a multi-sports event, whether it is the Olympics or the Pan American Games,
the Asian Games, that would always be this restriction that we have to bear in mind
with someone who's setting. Maybe in the World Cup, you could, if everybody agrees,

(06:02):
you probably would be able to set until past midnight. But in multi-sports events, probably
there would be some certain time restrictions that you need to adhere to. So it could be like,
you probably need to leave by 12 o'clock. Yeah. Because there could be security

(06:24):
at the end of each day. So all this has to be coordinated. And when we look at a broader view,
it's not just us working, but it's like probably 101 teams that is actually working to ensure that
the event runs. There's a lot of protocols as well, right? So I think I just want to touch

(06:44):
quickly a bit on the OQS. So I think a couple of people were watching on stream and they were like,
why do they have tapes all over their uniforms, right? It's like all covering the North Face
logos and all that. And it's all because of this. It's all protocol. And yeah, and that's like the
last minute thing. Oh, we can't be showing this, so you better tape it up. So I think it's pretty

(07:05):
normal in that sense. But of course for Paris, it's slightly different because you already have
a new set of uniforms. So that, yeah. And I think to touch on that also, actually in the IBSC World
Cups and all that, they have specifications as to how big your logo can be. So yeah, there are

(07:25):
different rulings for that. So it's not just, oh, you can just slap one full blockface logo
on the back and that's it. Okay. And then we'll get into the Olympics a bit more later as well,
but I guess before we dive too deep into things, what roles do you each have in the IFSC and what
do you do for your role? For me, I'm an event delegate with the IFSC. So I work closely with

(07:52):
the event organizing team to manage the climbing competitions. I mainly look at
the pre-planning, the logistics and facilities of the event. So my work would usually be taking

(08:12):
place one or two months before the IFSC World Cup takes place. When the event starts,
it's more for the jury president who will be managing the overall competition. Then during
the competition, a big part of my role would be working with the broadcasting team and the award

(08:37):
ceremony team to make sure that everything goes according to the requirements of the IFSC.
I am the IFSC judge, so nearly third, I guess, this year officially. For the longest time,
I was doing a lot more continental events. But this year, I've done at least one World Cup,

(09:02):
going to another one in a couple of weeks' time, for that to be specific.
Okay, nice.
Yeah. So basically, I'm the IFSC judge. It's very different from what Stanley does. So he does a lot
of pre-planning, behind-the-scenes kind of thing. For me, a lot more front-facing. So I deal mainly

(09:24):
on the fill-out plate, what you call FOP. That's literally the area around the wall,
the coaches area, every single thing or structure there is under my control. That includes dealing
with appeals directly with your coaches, right? So primarily, my job would be to supervise the

(09:46):
national technical officials, or whether you're national judges, and so forth, right?
So it's more on a supervisory role where they, for let's say, for qualifications and semifinals,
they typically do the actual judging. I'm just going to oversee, supervise, let's say they have
any questions, or let's say some coach can tell me and say, hey, I think your spelling is wrong.

(10:07):
Maybe there's a data input issue or whatsoever, and that's where I will go in to rectify.
So from a hierarchy point of view, I report to the jury president, which is now an IFSC Level 4
Judge. And I guess, Stanley, did you used to judge? I thought there was some sort of relation there.

(10:28):
Right. Yeah. So sorry. So other than being an event delegate for the IFSC, I'm also the chair
for the IFSC Judge Commission. The Asian Council, the sports department, in the development of

(10:49):
competitions and officials in Asia. Yeah. So a bit more about me. I was a national judge
back in 2004 in Singapore. That's where the federation decided to invite then the

(11:12):
head of the Roots Commission from IFSC. IFSC was still part of UIDA to conduct
the national judge course. Fast forward one year later,
the international judge course was organized in Austria. So I went to take

(11:36):
the course. I passed the test and I had to do two practicum. So you have to cover the project speed
in two competitions. My lead speed is the youth world championship in Beijing. That was the first
time where the youth world championship was held in Asia. And then in 2006, I completed my

(12:06):
world championship in Birmingham, UK. Yeah. So after that, that's where I became an IFSC judge.
So I came through the IFSC judge track, like what Sue is currently doing. So from
2016, 2017, I was IFSC jury president. And also in 2021, I became the IFSC event delegate.

(12:36):
Okay. So we'll get into the timeline of how that works in a bit. But I guess starting from the
beginning, this is kind of like a volunteer position. So what made you guys interested in
joining? I'll let you go first. Okay. So it's got quite a long history and story in that sense where

(13:00):
basically back then. Okay. So you mentioned, Sandy mentioned it started around 2004. That was
literally the year I started climbing. Literally. All right. That's a good 20 years ago, two decades
ago. So I started climbing when I was in secondary school, which is your equivalent of a high school,
I believe. It was just like a co-curricular activity. Just go there and climb. It was

(13:28):
what an outdoor club kind of thing. And then, so that was a good four years. So once I ended
that four years of high school, I went to polytechnic. It's like, that's where I got
my diploma basically. And that was technically where I actually met Stefis. Right. So it's more

(13:50):
of like, so I mean, aside from timeline itself, so a good six years about after I started climbing.
So 2008, I was part of the climbing club in polytechnic. So what happened was the one day
they'll be like, we have a national judges course. It's free. Do you want to attend?

(14:10):
I'm like, oh, okay, sure. Why not? Like, I mean, it's free. So Singaporeans like, please start.
And then we're like, okay. So we took it. I think the cohort was pretty huge. There was a good 10,
15 of us. But ironically, only two of us. So again, I think to your question, I think

(14:34):
after a while, we've been doing, so once we cleared the national judges course, right,
so we did what we could, we clocked our mileage. And then over time, we'll be like,
I think we can kind of see the same for some others. For one, back then, eight years ago,

(14:54):
two or 10 years ago, the climbing industry was not as commercialized as it is today.
So it's almost like the only thing you can do. It was the only hobby you can have. It was so
niche. Everyone was like, oh wow, you're a rock climber, you're a sport climber. Everyone gets

(15:16):
so excited when they hear about it. But then now we'd be like, everyone's climbing. Now climbing
is like the new spin class, right? To be really honest, right? But more importantly, I felt that
on my own, on my personal level, I was thinking like, you know what, if I really invested so much

(15:37):
time in this, why not just go all the way? And I think from a voluntary perspective, I spent,
ever since I started working, I spent a good three-quarters of my paid time off,
or your annual leave, all on climbing competitions. It's a lot of dedication,

(16:02):
a lot of sacrifice for sure. But I think at the end of the day, it depends on what you want.
I think some people, to be really honest, I just want to apply and call it a day,
have fun, jump here, jump there. That's about it. But I think on my end, I think one of the
most important motivations for me, it's also to bring the sport to the next level.

(16:25):
I think we always have this issue in Asia specifically, right? We're always trying to
go after the Europeans, not in a bad way, but the Europeans are always known to be at the top of
their level for climbing, for example. So we kind of want to reach there to some extent. Of course,

(16:46):
we have our usual superstars like your Sogato, your Tomoa and all that, but that's on an athlete
level, but we're looking more on a continent level. So I think it's pushing the standards
also nationally on a local level. Of course, we're not as big as like the USA, but then

(17:07):
there's a lot of, I would say there's a lot of resistance to change for sure. Commercial gym
owners only think about money most of the time. I mean, you are a business owner, I cannot blame
you, but then to them, it'd be like, how do I balance between making money and also pushing
the standards of climbing in Singapore, for example. So there's a lot of different variables,

(17:32):
a lot of factors, but I think more often than not, it's always to push the standards.
And let's go in.
Well, so Zhu mentioned earlier, he was studying in Polytechnic. So that's a college in Singapore
that offers diploma programs. Interestingly, 25 years ago, I was in that position in that same

(18:01):
college. So climbing was really new back then. We were one of two tertiary institutions
that were organizing climbing competitions back then. So I started to get involved. We

(18:21):
have annual competitions, Rockmania. I started to get involved. I was helping out with judging work
as an assistant. From there, I start to look at climbing, not just as climbing, but as an event

(18:42):
itself. I got really curious about the concept behind the rules, how the competitions are managed.
So yeah, I started to really look and start to learn from people that I've known. My mentor,

(19:06):
Diamwat. So he was back then considered a national judge because he's like the
pioneer batch who received training from the French Federation. So Singapore invited the
French Federation to be here to actually conduct training from them. So I had to learn a lot from

(19:30):
him until the opportunity came that, hey, we are getting, the Federation is getting the
Rules Commission, Mr. Okay Nelson, to be here to conduct a judge training course.
And so it's a good opportunity for me to actually learn more.

(19:51):
So throughout the process, it's always about trying to learn more and
seeing how I can contribute, but without really a clear destination at night. It's like, I'm just
happy to be involved because from the training course, from the competitions, you meet people

(20:16):
who share the same interests with you. You work with people who are aligned to develop the sports
of climbing. So that was the thing that just kept me going, going, and going until now.
For people who may be interested in getting involved in some way,

(20:39):
do you have to know someone or is there a clear process for how to,
I guess, become involved at an IFSC level or a judging level?
To start off with judging, I would suggest that go to the Provincial National Federation. I believe

(20:59):
National Federation would have organized some training course. They would probably have a
development roadmap for the judges, the skills framework. That's the best way to start.

(21:22):
Different federations would have different levels of the judge structure. We over here in Singapore,
we have two. Now that the US, you have five different levels. So depending on the geographic
location and the requirement. So for the candidate to be eligible for the IFSC course,

(21:48):
you probably would need to be at the highest level. I know that every now and then, IFSC would
communicate to the national federations about any upcoming national IFSC judge courses.
We had two this year. Was it this year or last year? Last year, one was held in Singapore for

(22:20):
the Asian and Oceania prospects, and the other one was held in Pan America in preparation for
the Santiago games as well. Yeah. So the national federation should have the information. Then they
will then look into the list of officials. They probably would have an evaluation system in place

(22:44):
to evaluate and see who can I send for this training course. If you cleared the training
course, you will have a theoretical course and there will be some internship where you will be

(23:07):
working as a trainee IFSC judge in the competitions. If the assessment is favorable,
then that's where you become an IFSC judge level one. So the level one IFSC judge would allow you
to be working as equivalent of IFSC judge in a continental event. Level two would be a jury

(23:33):
president level working in the continental events. For the IFSC judges that are nominated for the
World Cup, they are sitting at level three and the jury presidents at level four.
And Zul, you're kind of, I guess, newer to doing official IFSC judging.

(23:54):
Is there anything that kind of surprised you about judging at the IFSC level?
The difference between IFSC and any other level is, of course,
we always train our judges in such a way that we tell them, like, you are running a show
and you are running a show because why you have live streaming, right? It's, you'll

(24:18):
scroll up, you'll scroll up on the live stream for the world to see, literally. And I think
that is one biggest factor with regards to all the differences of all the events. Of course,
sure you can see nationals may have their own live screenings and so on and so forth, but
I think the spectators and online viewers looking or watching your live stream or

(24:42):
work out is a lot more significant, obviously, right? So, and it's also where you don't end up
becoming a laughingstock online for some reason. Well, there's not, I don't think there's too many
opportunities to become a, to really mess up too bad as a judge, are there?
Yes. Well, I guess, yeah, maybe.

(25:05):
But I mean, I think we can talk a lot, a bit more later about appeals and all that. I think that
would be the most obvious way of screwing up, right? But I think at the IBSC level, it's,
you're dealing with people who you've never met. Of course, if I'm from Asia,

(25:28):
obviously I've met Asian coaches, right? But then you're dealing with the Americans,
the Europeans, China, all the different continents and all that. So these people
are literally strangers to you. So you don't know them, they don't know you.
And it's been, I wouldn't say it's a, it's an open secret in that sense, but rather,

(25:49):
they probably tested, right? They will try to see whether, oh, is this, so this guy is new.
So can I actually take advantage of him? Like, can I make his life a little bit simple?
Sketchy. Okay.
Yeah. So you learn how Stanley's laughing. So that's evident that it happens, right? And I
think that happens throughout. I mean, to put it very, very bluntly, your, it gets,

(26:18):
it's really unforgiving. It can be, it's a lot of pressure. Every competition has its
pressure for sure. But on a World Cup level, I think it's immense, right? Because, I mean,
maybe it's also the, it's a personal thing. Like I don't want to make mistakes. It's a

(26:40):
self-imposed kind of thing. But then, I mean, I personally always try to strive for the best
anyway. So, yeah, it's a lot of things to worry about, basically.
Yeah. Do you remember a time where you felt like a coach was taking advantage of you,
or trying to pull something?
Oh, yeah, sure. But sure, yeah. I think it's not, let's say,

(27:08):
taking advantage in that sense where I think they will constantly breathe down your neck.
They will be always asking for certain things, like, hey, can you do this? Can you do that?
They probably tell you this, ask you to see whether will you actually abide to it, or will
you actually, I guess, contest and go against his words and say, no, we're not going to do that,

(27:35):
that sort of thing. I mean, basically, they're trying to see whether you can be a pushover,
right? And then at the same time, there are certain instances where they'll be like,
say, hey, this is a high-profile sitcom. Why are you doing this? It's like, there's a reason why
I'm doing this, you know? And then at the same time, there are coaches who will just shout at

(28:00):
you, like for no apparent reason, you'd be like, what did I do? It wasn't even my fault, you know?
But it's just in the spur of the moment, right? At the end of the day, we have to understand that
I think the worst thing is we cannot take it personally. And I think that is a very key,
important trait that judges should have because at the end of the day, these people are coaches,

(28:24):
they are in charge of athletes and they want the best out of the athletes. It's a condition,
for goodness sake. It's like, it's not the carnival, right? So, and then of course,
they will be shouting at you and all that, but then once the event is done, then you'd be like,
hey, you can talk to them as well. Okay, that's nice.
And that's the beauty of it, right? But then of course, sometimes there needs to be that,

(28:51):
you could say you may start on the wrong foot for some of them, right? But then after that,
you'd be like, then maybe after the call, maybe you can talk to them, kind of iron out the things
and say, oh, I see you did this because of this, this, this. Sometimes, because at the end of the
day, you have to understand that they are also kind of gated at where they are, where they're

(29:12):
seated. They have a coach's ear and they only see whatever they see, right? They don't know
our perspective and neither do we, right? We could have the freedom to walk all over the place,
but then they're only in one place. And considering some of them are in isolation for a couple of

(29:33):
hours, they'd be like grumpy old men or whatever. So maybe not old, some of them are quite young.
So anyway, you get my point, right? So yeah. You probably have more grumpy men than women.
So is there one more event? Yeah. So I think the pressure, I think if I had to summarize the

(29:59):
pressure on, at doing IFA Sydney Awards, it's immense. You don't want to screw up, that's one.
And then at the end of the day, you want to have a good show. But more importantly, because for me,
people always say that like, oh, okay, you're an IFSC judge and all that. But then I say,

(30:22):
you don't know the amount of things I sacrificed to get to where I am. That's one. And doesn't quite
help when you're training under this guy. So it's like, oh, so you know Stanley? It's like,
yeah, you know Stanley? Yes, I do. And then you'd be like, oh, Stanley. And then suddenly immediately
for some reason, there's this ceiling of expectations, which I've never seen before.

(30:45):
And then you'd be like, oh, okay, I guess I have to meet that ceiling there. Yeah. So that's one
thing that a lot of people don't realize. But to be clear, I got to where I am based on my own
merits as well. Right. So he did what he could, but there's no nepotism or whatever. I just want
to make it clear on record. Okay. So Stanley's tough. Gotcha. Yeah. Do you remember any times

(31:13):
where you feel like you made a wrong call or that you messed up? So I think for me, before I got
promoted to IFSC, I had to do two assessments. So one of it was the Salt Lake City competition
World Cup in 2023, last year. And also one multi-sport event, which is our continental

(31:39):
games, which is Asian Games, last year as well. So two events as part of my assessment.
Largely, I would say Asian Games are still okay.
But Salt Lake City, I wouldn't say it's a swap, let's say, because actually there was an appeal

(32:00):
involved, right? So I'll send you the timestamps later, I already have it prepared. So it was
during the men's boulder finals, and then of all people, it had to be Soweto, right?
First time seeing this down the circuit, and then anyway. So it wasn't, okay, objectively,

(32:26):
it's a normal appeal. Objectively, it's a normal appeal because why it's just like, okay,
the judge made a wrong call, which was me. I can admit that. But then what made it a bit more
serious in that sense was because the commentators spent like a good

(32:48):
three to five minutes talking about how the feeling was. Yeah, so I think no shit on the
commentators for sure. Megan Martin was the co-co-commentary, right? So she was saying,
oh no, I'm a bit surprised why the judge did not produce blah, blah, blah. And then, of course,

(33:09):
she did justify and said like, you know, look, I'll join this and all that. And it's just perfectly
fine. It's just that when I look at the score screen, I was like bloody hell, it's a good five
minutes talking about my opinion. But what was interesting is that, so that was one main thing.
It kind of bound me for sure. But I think the key thing that happened was, so basically the

(33:38):
gist of it, the gist of the appeal was that, so I went to do a four point start, but it was so fast
that I didn't catch it. So I deemed it as a proper four point start. So later on, when you look at
the video, you will see the actual screen, which is on a one time speed, which is normal. And then

(33:59):
there's another timestamp which they give on the slow-mo version. And even after looking at the
slow-mo version, it's kind of like, okay. But long story short, what happened was, why I didn't
calm him down was because at my angle, I saw him as a proper four point start.
So my start of judging, four finals, so for context, qualification, semifinals, IFSC judge,

(34:24):
do not do the judging. Physically, you're doing more on a supervisory role, but on a final,
you need to do the extra judging. So at least at one time in Salt Lake City, SLC, what we did was,
so I was judging with all the other USKC judges. So I believe, I'm not too sure whether you know,

(34:47):
but they have this system where you have a primary, secondary, tertiary judge. So there
were four of us, in fact, five, I think, and these are all senior judges together with me
judging, right? So my style, for finals at least, it differs from judges to judges, obviously.
So my style is like, okay, the moment the SC gets a zone, depending on the attempt at Salt Lake City,

(35:10):
I will just voice out and say, zone on two, meaning that the person gets a zone on the
second attempt, because sometimes your attempt might be mismatched. Maybe the top was three,
mine was two, one, so on and so forth, right? So that's my style. So when that thing happened,
so obviously we were also taken aback. I was like, eh, what's with the delay? And then I was like,

(35:32):
okay, next thing you know, I was like that. And at that point in time, the JV was team hatched
for Britain, and it was like, came out, it was like, there's going to be a build, so you're going
to send my like, okay. So I'm like, in my head, I was like, shit, which build is this? And then
after that, when they came out, whether when he reclaimed and all that, I just took that brief

(35:54):
moment to check with my judges, like, do you actually see him start? Then all of us agreed
that we saw him start properly. It's just that it was so fast to the naked eye, you couldn't see.
I'm like, okay, I mean, to be fair, the JP was reviewing the video on a CCTV, which had like,

(36:16):
I don't know, 10 times slow-mo function, which, I mean, come on, man, if I could be a Terminator,
then yeah, maybe I should do that. Other than that, but you know, at the end of the day,
this kind of things, shit happens. And I wouldn't say I'm happy. I'm okay to admit that I
potentially did that mistake or maybe I did that mistake, but I think it's sometimes it's almost

(36:44):
inevitable, but then more importantly, well, what's the takeaway, right? So what do you learn
from that? So I was also considering looking at the stream itself. And now I was realizing,
actually, it could be potentially because of the position we were sitting, right? So like,
let's say the wall is here. We are seated at maybe a 45 degree angle. It could be from the stream,

(37:10):
it looked like it didn't start. So that could be it. Or maybe the solution was just to have
me sit on the left side, for example. And moving forward, that's what I've been doing since day one.
So it's like, yeah, you kind of learn from all this. So yeah, it's like, well, it happens.

(37:31):
Can't wait to watch it back and see what it looks like.
Yeah. Stanley, anything from your side on any time you fucked up?
Well, I think judging-wise, it's been a long time because I haven't really been doing a lot of
judging. If you ask me now, I don't really recall. But honestly, every time after a competition,

(37:58):
on the way to the airport, on the plane, I've always been just reflecting on myself like,
okay, is there something that I could have done better in this case?
Yeah. So even by working with the stakeholders, it's going back as, okay, I think this decision,

(38:18):
is this the right decision? Would I have done it better if given the chance?
So yeah, that is constantly that process. But even if there's things that I think that I did
right, again, it's also to just think about it. Yeah. So for me, at this point, not so much

(38:40):
judging related decisions that I can call. Yeah.
Okay. So judging is also kind of closely connected to route setting because how they
set up the zones and the tops kind of makes a difference in terms of how you're going to judge

(39:01):
it. Is there anything that you hate that route setters do?
Wow. That's a really interesting question.
Please excuse this brief intermission, but I've gotten a few requests for this. So I just wanted
to announce that if you're interested in helping support the show, my Patreon page is now live.

(39:23):
Some perks include ad-free, interruption-free episodes, deleted scenes, prioritized guest
questions, or the ability to submit video questions, an enamel pin shipped to you after
two months of membership, and much more to come. The proceeds go back into the podcast to help me
break even, and they help improve the experience of the guests. If you'd like to support the podcast

(39:45):
non-monetarily, liking, commenting, and sharing helps a great deal as well. Back to the show.
To be honest, too many coordinations. When you have a coordination group, there's a lot of jumping or
jump starts specifically, and maybe it's just a preference thing. So it's like we have a

(40:06):
score sheet, or maybe nationally we have a physical score sheet, but then on the IFC level,
you have a template, right? So it'd be like, each time a person jumps, it's like slapping and
tapping and tapping and tapping. It's like 20 different attacks. So that's probably one of it.

(40:29):
But I think largely, maybe Stanley would have a different perspective on this, but because I'm
working on the realm itself, I think it's not inherently something that I dislike or I hate,
but I think it's more of finding that compromise most of the times. So it could be as simple as,

(40:52):
because sometimes the route setters tend to think of it from a move's point of view. Like,
okay, this move, that move. But for us, we need to make that zone, or let's say for lead, right?
It has to be tangible because you have to show or rather allocate a specific point or number to it.

(41:17):
So some of them will be like, oh, okay, but this move, I need to do this, I need to match,
and then therefore this becomes a dual hold. For dual holds, basically the judge is like, man,
because the moment that dual hold gets broken, it's going to change the world effectively,
right? Of course, it might be a simple change, just a reduction of one number, but then

(41:40):
once appeals come in, and then you'll be like, oh, okay, so there's another hold. But long story
short, I think there are certain things that they do in terms of word setting where I think they,
again, I think Solid City had this issue where they tried to do some kind of indication on the

(42:06):
route about how they should start the route. I can't find that video. I need to find it.
So basically, I think they wanted somebody to kind of do a four-point start,
like in a handstand kind of start. I don't know how that works, but so what they did was they

(42:30):
fixed four or five screw-on holes in the shape of a man, like an inverted man doing a handstand.
It's almost like an indication of how to start. I don't remember this at all.
I didn't know about it, interestingly, because I was so busy running around.
And then only after the event, they were saying, oh, actually, they actually changed the route.

(42:55):
I'm like, what do you mean they changed the route? I was there the whole time. How did I not know?
Maybe once I get that footage, I'll probably send it to you. But sometimes they do things
very funnily or in their own ways, I guess. Yeah. But I think no, no, no props to them for sure.

(43:17):
They have an office job for sure. And this is also why they get paid a lot more than we do.
But I think fundamentally, I don't hate them, to be really honest. It's always nice working with
them. I think it's always the compromises that you have to take. Like, okay, can we do this instead?
Can we tape it? Can we tape the zone on the channel hole instead of the volume? For example,

(43:41):
maybe, you know, it could be the nuances of certain things. Like, what if I do this move,
my leg swings and I touch on this, can this be avoided? Or even down to a simple as,
can we shift that mic nearer? Would it hit the athlete's interface? That sort of thing. So,
it's a lot of communication involved, but I wouldn't say inherently that's the thing that

(44:07):
you realize. Yeah. Well, working with the group setter, sometimes people may deem it as what I
call the full relationship thing. We're here trying to make sure that we follow the protocol,

(44:29):
the requirements, the rules. The setters are a bunch of really creative people. I really admire
their creativity. So, it's more of like, where does this creativity has a limit? Because what
Zhou said earlier, they're trying their best to come up with original moves. We're actually judging,

(44:53):
we're actually joking about, are there any more original moves that the setters can make?
Yeah. So, yes, it's really cool if you really can come up with something that is unique,
really original. But there are times where things get a bit off, and even to some of the coaches,
it's like, hey, what is this? This is not really climbing. It's not hardcore. It's a bit like

(45:18):
circus. So that is where sometimes we need to come in and again, be the moderator. Sometimes
to check like, okay, do you think this is appropriate? Likewise, speaking for the jury
president and the judges, it's like, okay, the starting position, the zone, is that appropriate?

(45:42):
Or can we just make some changes to the zone? Maybe this is not that easy to judge,
or we foresee certain problems with the zone. Are we able to move around?
And actually having a discussion with them, I would say most of them are actually quite
self-dating. Yeah. So working with the IFSC setters is quite interesting because, well,

(46:08):
you think that they are a bunch of people who's always working with metal screws and looking at
wood, right? And maybe they think like, well, actually they are not. They don't just go around
just doing resetting work. I find that a lot of them are actually very insightful.
They are very knowledgeable. Some of them, we had very interesting discussion about talking

(46:29):
about the sustainability of the flamming industry because, you know, with the holes and everything,
after 10 years, if you have a gym after 10 years, after 15 years, what do you do about those?
How to, yeah, can it be recycled? So the IFSC setters, I realized that a lot of them are
actually thinking very far ahead, yeah, beyond their technical skills. What I realized are the

(46:56):
challenges of working with receptors that are starting out and are starting to developing
into or aspiring to be IFSC receptors. Because many a times what they see is they just see
what is on YouTube, what's on the big screen, and they start to mimic without really thinking or

(47:25):
asking why. And that's where problem comes in. It's like when we are doing in local competitions,
when we realize something that's a bit off, we start to ask question. It's like,
it can't really have a concrete rationale to why they do that. And makes it very difficult,

(47:49):
especially when it is something that pertains to safety, where do you think this is safe?
Example, if you have a volume, you only have up and the volume is on the sidewalk, and you only
have half the volume secured on the climbing wall, and the other half that is exposed. To me,

(48:11):
it is a safety hazard that could have been avoided. So this is not talking about a
technical, sorry, this is not about just a route safety issue anymore. It's about a general safety
issue. So people say, oh, but so-and-so does this, so-and-so does that, so-and-so stack up volumes

(48:38):
on volumes on volumes. Yeah, but when you ask people, you realize that they probably only know
this much, and that is actually a challenge with us. And sometimes when we try to talk to them,
they will probably look at us, oh, so are you trying to impose what you have learned from

(49:03):
IFSC competitions to the local competition, but it's two different standards. So it's like,
we are not talking about standards here, but we are talking about general safety.
Yeah, so that is the challenge that I realized working with new aspiring route setters.
So yeah, that's sort of like the relationship with route setters. And then in terms of your

(49:24):
relationship with coaches, I guess, first of all, how does the appeals process work?
And then we'll get into your angry coach stories or whatever you have there.
And maybe I'll take this one. So yeah, so okay, I think first and foremost,
on any level, at the very least, you have two types of appeals. One, your verbal appeal,

(49:50):
or rather unofficial appeal, and your official appeal. So verbal appeals are typically
during the round itself. So let's say during qualifications, they realize their athletes got
wrong score, maybe not number of attempts different, so on and so forth. So the coach

(50:11):
can come to me and say, I think there's a mistake with my climber. So I think you should be getting,
let's say if it's a lead event, and she should be getting a plus, and they'll be like, oh, okay.
So sometimes it is an actual error on our end, or the judges end, because it's manual input

(50:33):
on the tablet, right? So privacy to use the tablet, which links to the verticalized system.
So it could be like, oh, actually I forgot to put a plus inside. Obviously on my end,
so I have to check, is this 25 plus, or is it 25? Your paper puts 25 plus, but on this
live score, it says 25. So that's where I rectify, right? So that is your kind of verbal appeal. So

(50:57):
it's a bit more casual, right? Or it could be as simple as, oh, I think that delay is giving too
much slack. So that counts as verbal appeal in that sense, right? So I think for that context,
in the rules, there's also the safety appeal, which can be done by three coaches,

(51:20):
separate coaches. If they write in and say there is a safety appeal, we must act on it. The JPSO,
right? Basically, this doesn't happen most of the time. Anyways, so officials, then you have
your official appeal. So official appeal is basically after the event ends, that's where
you require to submit your appeal form with your name, which country you're representing.

(51:46):
If there's a particular box, I can send you a link where to see this actual form, the ones
that the coaches are actually using it. You have to indicate the reason why. So and so, let's say,
for example, using the example, my athlete so-and-so should be getting a 25 plus. And on top of that,

(52:09):
they have to quote the article number in the rulebook based on whatever result. So let's say,
oh, based on article number so-and-so, the primers shifted, there was a change in mass of
heaps, moving the direction of the route, progressive movement of the route, so on, so forth.

(52:32):
And therefore, we should be getting a 25 plus, for example. And then you have to sign and submit.
So official appeal for qualification and semifinals is within five minutes. For finals,
it's immediate. So for finals, because it's podium, right, you're talking like money,

(52:53):
he pays money and so on, so forth. So more often than not, some athletes, some coaches,
they will tell you in advance, I'm going to appeal. I'm like, okay, then because that appeal
decision would be against my decision, so I wouldn't be entertaining, right? So what happens

(53:14):
would be, some of them will give you the heads up, that's one. Some of them will be already
written down there. It's like DHL. So official appeal has money involved. So to my knowledge,
it's 150 euros, which will be- Oh, that's pretty expensive.

(53:37):
Yes, it's about, it's $150, which will be invoiced directly to your national federation
once it's approved. So in that event where the appeal fails, it's rejected basically,
you lose the 150 euros. And so then what's your relationship like

(54:00):
with coaches? Do you feel like they ever hold grudges against you if they remember who you are?
Do you know of any coaches that will just cause you a lot of trouble?
I think we are still alive here. So I guess that the relationship should be considered quite cordial.
It depends. So I think, again, to be fair, I'm new, so I'm still building, I'm still on the way

(54:30):
to build that rapport. I mean, unlike Stanley, he already knows all these people and he's also
not really doing the judging part. But for me, I'm still making my way there. I'm trying to make
came to contact, network with them, talk to them. It's my first time to introduce myself after the
con and all that. But thankfully, there are separate coaches, which obviously from the Asian

(54:53):
region, because every other time we look at them. So let's say for Team Japan, everyone loves Team
Japan. Obviously, I know the coaches, they also know me. And sometimes I don't believe I have any
needs, or rather no coach sent to have any guys just with me, from what I know. But I think the

(55:18):
relationship-wise can be easy if you know them. That's the thing, because I think there's a lot
of relationship involved in that sense where not like a boyfriend-girlfriend kind of thing, but
more like mutual respect. Because sometimes they can hook up to you and be like,
Oh wait, my guy forgot his accreditation card. Okay, sure. But you don't immediately penalize

(55:48):
them in that sense. You know, like you kind of, okay, you take note that I'll do what I can,
you know. And then for example, I'll give you a very clear example of what happened
in, again, Sonic City, again with Team Japan. So Higoshi-san, the head coach for Team Japan,
was sitting at the bench, one of the coaches. So one of his athletes, the Japanese athlete, was

(56:16):
gonna talk the route, although I was climbing, there was a side wall that had a boundary tape
right below the handhold. So what happened was like, my judge went up, and obviously she went
over the line, so obviously had to call her up down, then my judge came to tell her, call her

(56:39):
off basically, right. And for some strange reason, I happened to make eye contact with him,
and all I did was like, lying like that, he was like, life goes on after that. It can be that
simple, you know, but there are courses where you'll be like, there's blood on the towel,
why are you not cleaning it? You'll be like, okay, let's go, I'm not a cleaner, but okay,

(57:03):
I will work on that. It can get very different for certain coaches, but yeah, I think it's
trying to find that balance, I guess. Most of them are trying to get that balance to me.
For me, my current work is really, let's say, doing things that make the coaches' lives a bit easier

(57:34):
and manageable. So things that I'm looking at is accessibility to the facilities, for example,
doing properties like Forbidden, the World Championship last year. We've got so many
assets, we've got so many coaches, team officials, but again, the coach corridor is a little bit

(58:00):
so differently. We can't always have everybody in, likewise the isolation area as well.
So that's where having to, my job, my role is to sit down with the organizing committee to really
work out, to find out what's the best solution that we could do, because if the space is not

(58:22):
big enough, then we unfortunately have to limit the number of officials to be in so that
all countries can be in that area. So it's a lot about crowd control, access management for me,
making sure that the facilities are met. So definitely I have to be able to be

(58:49):
trying to strike a win-win between the organizer and the coaches. Sometimes they can understand,
but sometimes it's not easy. But again, I can imagine why they need certain things, for example.
So that is the part that is always a challenge for me in competition. After evaluating,

(59:20):
if I have to say no, I'm sure I have to say no. If I could work something out,
I try to work something out. For example, this year, what was the first event again?
Kejian Ao Workout. Yeah. So say the security was really strict.

(59:44):
I was there. Yeah.
Your umbrellas. Yeah. Umbrellas, water bottles, everything has to be left outside the gate.
So it's like, yeah, the coaches were in. They can't have umbrellas.
But you could have rain jacket. Yeah, but I can use a rain jacket for our video cameras.
It's like, okay, yes, you make a point. So I have to go and talk to the umbrella and say,

(01:00:07):
look, we need umbrella. Because they have to do that and they have to cover it.
So we have that discussion and finally, okay, everybody, you can take your umbrella in so
everybody's happy. So there are things like this that I have to go with and resolve it.

(01:00:28):
So it could be something that's very minute, but actually it's quite significant.
So yeah, so my role has taken quite a very different role from that. And also I do my
role well, probably they have a better experience prior to the round starts that may translate to
them feeling a bit better and a bit friendlier to our friend here.

(01:00:49):
Yeah, it sounds like you get a lot of abuse.
But to be fair, to be honest, they are really very nice. I mean, to be able to challenge
the judges and to make the judges scratch their head and watch the video over and over again,

(01:01:10):
I think there is merit to what they are fighting for. And with that comes a lot of knowledge. So
again, I really admire them that they are not just coaching, coaching, coaching, but they know
the rules well to be able to bring it up for discussion.
Yeah. Do you have much interaction with the athletes in terms of abuse?

(01:01:35):
I think abuse is the hardest part. But I think we, again, again, again, again, I think it's
always in school. So I think there have been miscommunications for sure. Right. So like,
sometimes like you say something and then another person says something and you'd be like,

(01:01:58):
what happened? Right. So, and then they started, you know, doing a tantrum and of course,
I can be that asshole and give them a yellow card, but obviously I'm not going to do that.
How does that ever happen? So far I have not given. So I've been told that I'm a bit soft
on giving yellow cards. You can ask Tyler for that. So Tyler Maltin said that. So anyway,

(01:02:21):
but I think my point is, if you can kind of mitigate it first, then let's do that.
I believe in that prophecy. So I think a good example would be again Salt Lake City. A lot of

(01:02:43):
things that happened in Salt Lake City. My first ever World Cup. Good experience for sure. So I
think, so what happened was, it was during the speed event. So one of the Italian players. So it
was the practice, well, so before qualifications right. So it's pretty standard that if you climb,

(01:03:05):
once you fall, when I say fall, you're off the wall, your feet pass the ground, that's the end
of your climb. For some strange reason, I don't know why, if any of the coaches are saying please
tell them to only stop climbing okay. Because for some strange reason, a lot of people, before they
think it's a practice, the moment they tap, they go up again. That's not allowed. And that's also

(01:03:30):
one of the parts where I think the Spanish coach shouting at me, saying why are they calling me
again? It's not the rules, they cannot be calling me again. And you get a lot of shit because of
that. Of course to be fair, yeah, I couldn't wait in time, but of course after that, I went to the
athlete and say you cannot do this, if you're a yellow belt because that's disobedience basically.

(01:03:53):
But so that was it. So the context of BIT is about athletes climbing despite falling,
not climbing again despite falling. So what happened to this Italian climber? So this
Italian athlete was like, so he came, so after that, a group of people was telling,

(01:04:16):
so after that incident happened basically, I told my officials, I said those at the cold zone,
I told them okay, they cannot climb. I said after they finish the attempt, they cannot do a re-attempt,
right, it's only one attempt basically. So next thing you know, this Italian dude came out and
they climb and they came down and then he climbed again, then I was like what the hell is this guy

(01:04:38):
doing? I literally told this guy not to climb. So and then I was like yo, I told you not to climb,
why are you climbing again? Then he started, I said your guy told me he can't climb. Then I was like
who? So I went back to the cold zone, so I was asking, did we tell them to climb again?

(01:04:59):
Then he was like no, I told them they can't climb. Then, wait, wait, wait, then after that,
it became like a three-way conversation. So I was talking to my cold zone IC and I was talking to
this stallion dude, I was like you tell me who's the person who tell you you can't climb? Then he
pointed to my cold zone and I was like did you tell him? So in it I was like, I'm like a, I don't

(01:05:22):
know, a therapist between two fighting couples or whatever you want to call it, but and then he was
like yeah, you told me I can climb. I said no, I told you can't climb. So it was an issue of
pronunciation. So you know how you say C-A-N apostrophe T, that guy thought was can as in

(01:05:45):
C-A-N. Then I was like you know what, so I told my cousin and she was like can we just say you
can't climb? So and all that, yeah it's this kind of things, it's so trivial, it's funny,
but then you know how that kind of snowballed something else. So it's just an initial

(01:06:08):
articulation I guess. So yeah I think athletes wise and as large as possible I think as judges
or officials and this, I think we are also trained to keep our distance from them. So that kind of
explains why we don't as if the unknown best is going to get a lot of abuse from them. They kind

(01:06:32):
of make like verbal tantrums like you can say why is that not the zone or why is it not the top. I
think that's pretty normal, but then even in isolation that we keep our distance. We want
to talk to them after the event, I think that's fine, but as much as possible we don't want to
appear to the public, to coaches as though we give some kind of favoritism,

(01:06:55):
because at the end of the day we have to be neutral, right? So we cannot, same reason why
we cannot cheer when they talk, we have to keep our faces straight and blank as possible, so yeah.
Yeah, is that hard?
Oh yes, yeah. It's like, yeah.
Yeah, I kind of forgot that there's like yellow cards because I guess I never

(01:07:16):
see that happen. Is that just given out for like bad behavior or like unsportsmanlike
stuff? I remember during the Olympics, there was like a shot of Luka Pudger like
punching the wall. Is that like yellow card worthy?

(01:07:37):
If you are showing unsportsmanlike behavior, that will constitute to a yellow card.
The most basic of a yellow card infringement would be not obeying the instructions of

(01:07:58):
the IMSC judge. Example, you have been called to get ready at the court zone. You are not there.
The IMSC judge approaches you and tells you that you need to go to the court zone now
because you have less than five minutes to get ready for the border. And if you are not moving,

(01:08:26):
then that could give you enough reasons for the IMSC judge to issuance a yellow card.
Then when she said it is really unsportsmanlike behavior, again, hitting the wall. To what

(01:08:47):
extent are you hitting the wall? Are you just taking a step on the wall? Are you really kicking
it so hard? Or are you kicking a chalk back to the audiences? I think that is something that
probably you will be able to see in some photos or videos. So that is unsportsmanlike behavior.

(01:09:08):
Again, the degree of the unsportsmanlike behavior, is it something that you look at it, it's like,
okay, this is definitely unsportsmanlike behavior, you should not do that, or what. But there are
times that because it shows the emotion. And again, that could be something that we could just

(01:09:29):
control your emotions, for example. If we think that this is still something that's tolerable.
Again, it is a fine line, I think we will still want to be always going out,
showing Milo card to everyone, right? And the timing is really a display
of emotions, whether it might not be, as long as it's within, as long as it is tolerable,

(01:09:58):
it will probably be, yeah. The profanities is like the number one conflict, I said,
over the phone, it's like on screen you can see it, it's like, you know, they will,
but then you can teleport. Is that not allowed or? Yeah, definitely it's not allowed. So
most of the time if I hear it, I was like, uh, language. Yeah, it's like, you understand,

(01:10:22):
you want to empathize with them, but then you have to do their job. We have to do our job,
and at the end of the day, again, you know, this kind of thing will take up, you know, the mics
are all over. Oh, true, yeah. Yeah, so I think you'd be surprised, I think even coming out onto
the wall without your BIP number also warrants you a yellow card. Right, yeah, okay, that makes

(01:10:47):
sense, I guess. Yeah. The yellow card that I've given is due to, interestingly, different sets
of uniforms being worn by athletes of the same country. So you probably have like three or four
athletes, maybe they'd wear two different versions of the uniform. That's not allowed, but the other

(01:11:14):
one, they're all wearing the same uniforms, but suddenly you see someone, one athlete has maybe
another two logos plastered on the uniform. That's not allowed because the uniform is standardized.
Well, that's not really something they can just like go and change really quick,

(01:11:37):
can they? It is something that probably, as long as they can change it before the competition starts,
as long as they are not out in the field of play in different uniforms, then that's fine.
I can't imagine why they would wear the wrong uniform unless it was just like by accident and

(01:12:01):
they didn't bring the right one. Some of them, what happened would be like,
hey, maybe the federation has changed the uniform. So you've got two athletes, both of them for some
logistical reason. One is not getting a new set of uniform and the other one has a new set of

(01:12:22):
uniform. And some in the past, some athletes would be like, okay, take out additional logos that is
sort of like their personal answers. So if we see it, sometimes during isolation,
we would just ask like, this is not the uniform that you're wearing when you're going around the

(01:12:49):
field to play, right? So just to gauge that. So X hasn't mind it. So someone said, oh no,
this is a watch. I will change it. Yeah. If not, then it will be like, no, this is the only one I
have to ask. Then you know that you are not allowed to, everybody in the team has to have

(01:13:10):
the same uniform. Then we have to find a way, they have to find a way. It's like, okay, you have to
find a way, right, to get that new uniform. Either the two of you rotate the uniform,
or maybe the other person has a spare set, for example. So that the problem solving will be

(01:13:30):
up to them. For us, it will be, okay, when you are at the field, we should be looking at everybody
in a standardised uniform. If not, then we have to issue a yellow card. And then it goes into,
if it's a different uniform, then we have to start to look into it, which one is the right one,
which we actually have a file where federations will submit the uniform for us. So we have to,

(01:13:52):
okay, this one is the right one. So it's not the, oh, I want a yellow card, the wrong athlete.
Okay. Wow. Interesting. So, yeah, some of the crazy stories that you have during the time,
I guess, either as judge or event delegate, either at the IFSC or locally,

(01:14:14):
yeah, any crazy stories that either of you want to get into?
Well, I'll say my craziest event would probably be the World Cup last year in Jakarta.
Yeah. Really, for a few reasons, it was just a speed World Cup. We had to,

(01:14:36):
we were really concerned with the event. We know about the weather forecast not being promising.
And it's been just, yeah, so everybody was quite worried. So it's quite interesting because we
talked to the organizers. We were like, hey, we need to really plan regarding the weather. The

(01:15:00):
event is taking place in the evening. We need to have understanding for, yeah, what's the
conditions in place. And we really like to check with the local meteorological station on the
weather forecast. So they were like, no, we've got everything settled. And we're like, okay,

(01:15:25):
so what's the plan? Oh, yeah, we've got the subject matter expert. He will be able to fix
the weather. So we were like, okay. So we started to ask a bit more. In short, they've got somebody

(01:15:47):
with traditional wisdom, which can control the weather. Then we were like, yeah, okay,
thank you. But I think it's not possible for me to tell the coaches and the team managers that,

(01:16:07):
oh, we've got somebody with traditional wisdom that can fix the weather. Or neither could I put
this in the report if I have to cancel. So we were like, oh, it's not easy. They were confident.
I get it. But again, I need some actual information for us to make contingency and stuff.

(01:16:33):
So it took us really a very long while for us to really get some scientific reports.
I have to talk about things that I said. It's traditional and scientific terms for us to make
the decision. So we had the qualification, qualification ran semi-final. We were expecting

(01:16:58):
to have rain. Interestingly, three hours before, it was a very big rain and suddenly it stopped,
giving us enough time to do it. I think we rescheduled the competition probably an hour
before it just stopped and we were able to actually clean up the field of play. It's time

(01:17:23):
for the finals. Is it the weather report? Is it a traditional whistle? I don't know.
And also, same event. That was the first time that it's quite usual that if the IFSC board
members is not around, the event director would have to be involved in a few ceremonial rules

(01:17:47):
that include being the presenter for the awarding ceremony and the opening ceremony.
So, I had Xandru who was the sports operations manager from the IFSC office with me.
So, that was the first day of competition. We were having some discussion and the organizer came.

(01:18:08):
Hey, both of you are invited to the opening ceremony of the World Cup. Okay, sure. So,
we went there. So, I thought that okay, probably go there just to sit and grace the event with
performance. In Asia, we always have a performance. So, that was it. And it was later that I realized

(01:18:33):
that we had to be part of the opening ceremony. So, in this opening ceremony, they have a skit
where there's this skit about the competition taking place. And you have this bad character

(01:18:55):
is going to disrupt the competition. And Alessandro and I have to get into a spa with
the two henchmen. So, we have to rehearse it. And literally, I have to grab the knife of him

(01:19:17):
and actually stab the henchman. So, it's like, oh, we're becoming a performer in the opening
ceremony. So, yeah, I have the photo that I sent you. But unfortunately, it didn't kickstart any

(01:19:39):
acting opportunities. So, I saw an opening ceremony in Kachau that was one of the World
Cup side won two in person. Does that only happen in Asia? I didn't see any opening ceremonies

(01:20:00):
anywhere else. Yeah. So far, for Asia, like Indonesia, China, the opening ceremony would
usually comprise of one or two performance that is done by a local group just to showcase the

(01:20:24):
culture. Yeah. So, I'll give that a bit more comment than what we had. So, in Europe,
probably we have an opening ceremony just for the flag ceremony. There are probably
some speeches to kickstart. Yeah. But over here, there's tends to be a bit more elaborate,
I think, performance. I think the speech by the dignitaries as well.

(01:20:49):
Makes sense. And yeah. So, going back to the rain issue, that kind of happens a lot,
like almost all the time. There's always a rain concern. How is this not fixed at all?
I mean, because like, yeah, you had to cancel an entire round in Kachau. That makes it pretty

(01:21:14):
difficult. I think even recently, like in Innsbruck, there was a big delay.
Yeah. So, first of all, to fix, to really fix this problem for,
yeah, to fix this problem, I think we need to have all IPv6 events being organized indoors.

(01:21:37):
Indoor stadium or something, and it's not going to be cheap to have IPv6 events in indoor stadium.
It's going to cost a lot for the organizers. Probably, there are gyms that are spectacular.
That's good. But if you're organizing in gyms, it costs 3D to not allow so many spectators.

(01:22:07):
Could be maybe $300, $400, and that's the max. So that's where I see that
having competitions outdoors is still considered a viable option because you can find a big space,
you set up the wall, you prepare for 5,000 people, and because this is an open space like

(01:22:34):
the last two competitions in Jakarta, the cost to rent space would be minimal.
You pay some miscellaneous charge for the cleaning services, but if you want to book
an indoor stadium like PPC Arena in France, this could be quite a lot. And if you think about it,

(01:23:04):
three days of competition, five days of resetting, plus another three days of construction, that's
two a week. Yeah, so that is the challenges. That's why competitions are still being
organized outdoors. If it's outdoor, having a rain, I think that is definitely a drawback,

(01:23:32):
which again, because we are using a temporary venue, we can't have a booth that's as big as
possible. Kachiao, unfortunately I would say that it's really a bit unfortunate because you've been
there, you've known that it is considered an indoor facility, but if listeners can check the

(01:24:02):
wet check, some of the waters of the venue is that you have a big hole in the center.
In short, this hole, if it rains, everybody gets wet. The spectators that are sitting
at the terraces, spectators that are standing just right in front of the field of play,

(01:24:27):
and also the field play as well. You probably also see that when it rains, water rather than a
funnel to drain upwards, it's draining inwards as well. So I'll say that, yeah,

(01:24:50):
that is really unfortunate. You have a nice place, but due to the engineering or design,
the place couldn't be dry enough to give the athletes the perfect competition that they
deserve. So I'll say that it's a pity. And I really hope that we have the same.

(01:25:17):
This venue was built for the Asian Games last year. We had to unfortunately cancel
the final rounds for the women's gold athlete. So the medals were awarded based on the semi-final
results. But stage, I would say a cover was built for, we have this cover to block the rain in the

(01:25:46):
Coachella World Cup, but it's not enough because the floor gets wet. So it's coming out for
causal, quite a challenge for them to get to the field of play without the shoes being wet.

(01:26:08):
Even with that big shelter, half of the dead would still be subjected to rain.
So I'm just crossing my fingers and hoping that that could be resolved
for future events. Why don't you guys just hire the person who knows how to make the rain go away?

(01:26:35):
Yes, maybe that is a bigger way. I think you should reach out to him again.
I think they should share a bit of resources here where we get the traditional, the wise men to go
over to Coachella and try it out. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I mean, it worked the first time, so maybe there is something to it.

(01:26:58):
Okay, Zul, any examples from you in mind?
Among ourselves, the local judges, we have this funny joke about how in order for you to pass
what the judges cost, you need to do this one particular event that all of us did,

(01:27:23):
which was one of these, it wasn't an IBCC Con, but it was a continental event, but
it was super bad, in that sense where, so in a nutshell, the shittiest thing that happened was,
so it was a mixture of boulder, lead and spit, right, but during the lead event,

(01:27:47):
the belayers literally walked out of the event, and they did not want, they kind of went to a test.
Well, yeah, so I think it was some politics thing, so they'd be like, you know,
FCU, we're not going to belay, and then we were like, huh, how did you even go to the event,

(01:28:08):
and then the JP, the TD at that point of time had to tell the coaches that, you know what,
this is what happened, I don't know, so and then it ended up with the coaches themselves
belaying the athletes. Yeah, and now that's okay, I say sure, it's like, yeah, it was,

(01:28:32):
it was, I don't know, maybe it was a money issue, where, I don't know, it could be a lot of things,
so, but definitely not within our circle as technical officials, for sure. In fact,
I was not even a full-fledged judge at that point of time, I was there to take a course, which I
failed the first time. Yeah, so, yeah, that con was quite iconic because it's like, I went overseas

(01:28:59):
and then I was working with another senior judge, one of our mentors, and then this random dude was
like asking us on, during dinner, he was like, so which is the worst con in your guide? With the
boomerang I threw at him, I was like, you know what I was going to say, and he was like, I know what
you're going to say, you know, it's to that level, right? So it was crazy, like, you know, I think the

(01:29:25):
one underlying thing that a lot of people don't realize that competitions, in general, is the
amount of politics involved. So, yeah, going into this also deals, you have to kind of deal with
that, and I think that's where you kind of put it very nicely, you have to play your cards well,
right? You need to know who you should appease, you should know who not to, I guess,

(01:29:51):
in the right books, I guess, but that's not to say you should be pushed over just to every single
thing somebody asks you to do, right? But anyway, before I do this, so that same competition,
because, okay, so that competition was impractical for our course. So, continental judges, in case

(01:30:17):
we didn't cover early on, so basically, let's say if you're already a full-fledged national judge,
let's say you're ready to go to the next level at the discretion of your national
federation, they can probably offer you or recommend you to go to the continental course.
So, right now, it's a bit iffy because I don't know what ISAP-IFSC is doing, they might have

(01:30:41):
their own upgrade to begin with, but back then, during my time at least, we had this continental
judges course, so it's just one tier above, right? So, if you pass that course, you essentially become
what you are now, your IFSC level one judge. So, as mentioned earlier on, you're only doing
continental events at that level, right? So, that course, you take the theory bus, so there's an

(01:31:06):
exam and all that, and then you have to do a practical. The practical is actually running the
whole event of the competition. So, interestingly enough, that was where we had, as I mentioned,
we didn't have control as to how billionaires can walk out of the event, but for me, I was also
being a cellist, right? So, the funny thing was we knew that we were going to fail,

(01:31:32):
so I said I already failed, and then we were still told to run the event. So, what was funny was that
I had my counterpart, my friend, also from Singapore, who went to take the course. So,
basically, he passed, I failed. So, I mean, there's a cohort basically, so I think a good 10 of us,
so out of those 10, I think probably only 4 of them passed, so he was one of them. So,

(01:31:56):
the funny thing was we basically look kind of similar, both full-grown guys,
and then what was funny was, so the assessor was telling me, I said, okay, you do lead event,
you run the whole show. I'm like, what are you asking me to do? I'm like, oh, okay, fine,
but I've done it anyway, so I did it anyway, and long story short, I did it well enough to

(01:32:22):
be considered as a pass, but that pass wasn't for me, but was for my friend.
And then I was like, after the event, I was like, what do you ask me to do it? He said,
I saved the course. I said, wait, you're not this guy? I'm like, yeah, I'm not this guy,
so I made my friend pass. So there were minor minor stuff like how when I was judging,

(01:32:49):
I was the boulder judge, and then a Thai female climber was sitting in line. It was a rotation
format, right? And she had an asthma attack. Then I was like, are you okay? And then I'm like,
how do I react? Of course, it was my first time, right? I was like, should I take care of this?

(01:33:10):
But then I need to judge, so do I? It was a bit chaotic at times. Thankfully, the coach was right
behind me. I was like, yeah, I'll handle this. And then I think there was not a crazy story,

(01:33:31):
but kind of funny. Same thing, Solid City. So what happened was during one, I can't recall
whether it was, it was a speed event. I'm not sure which round. I will send you timestamp.
There was a bee. A bee was flying and going into the peanut hole. And all that was caught on screen.

(01:33:52):
The camera guy was zooming in into the bee and I was like, okay. And the funny thing,
I was on the ground and I was like, why? So it was, I think, Giulia Rendi from Italy. She was
going to compete with the female Chinese climber in this one. So it was before the round. And then
I was like, why does Giulia look so uneasy? You know, she felt as though there was something and

(01:34:19):
I was like, oh, there's a bee. At the top of my mind, I was like, please, please, please do not
sting anyone, because I don't want to handle it. You know, it's like, oh, I got stung by a bee,
and now I have to do a whole new rerun or whatsoever. So it was super funny. And everything
was caught on live stream. It's like immortalized on the live stream. Of course, it was nice to have

(01:34:47):
the USAC guys, you know, Black Tie Hathaway, was doing your world billiard thing. His crew was
like trying to show what such a way that bee, and he did it once, and then it came back. At the end
of the day, I was like, I think Steve, Steve, yeah, Steve went in and was like, for some reason,

(01:35:07):
took like three guys to like remove the bee, you know. And then there was one time where everyone
started laughing. Trevor was one of it, and I think Premier ZZ was like, kind of saved the day.
I was like, what the hell, you know, it's all because of bees. Yeah, and I think to be fair,
I was also told, you can't, because in US, we have like state laws and all that stuff, like,

(01:35:33):
this could be, I also learned that you can't just kill it because they could be protected species
and all that, so you can't get fined, and I'm like, I'm not gonna get that, I will see if it's
fine for killing a bee. Oh, I didn't know about that. Right, so, you know, that sort of thing,
so yeah, it's a lot of funny things that happened, so, but the bee layers working out will still

(01:35:55):
be the top of my list. All right, well, thank you for the stories. So yeah, now moving forward,
looking ahead into the future of IFSC and judging anything that you would like to see changed
to make either your lives easier or any ideas you have to improve it. I think the main bulk of our

(01:36:19):
work is still, you know, as mentioned, to deal with appeals and all that, so I think if there's
a way to kind of mitigate or reduce the effort needed for that, I think that would help tremendously
because I think just to share a bit on what's the current process, we still have video gamers to

(01:36:41):
record each of the athletes' climbs, but what we have to do now is we always have to, okay, let's say
they are done or in some cases you have to wait until the lane is clear before we can review the video.
That whole process itself is already very time-consuming, that's one, but the actual problem

(01:37:03):
relies on the viewing of the athlete's video. So you have to look into it, you have to find it,
find which, for boulder, it could be which attempt, for lead, it could be at which particular point,
of course, yeah, if you know the person got somewhere on the head wall, then obviously you

(01:37:24):
kind of fast forward to that part, but I think all that stuff, how do we then make it easier,
faster and more efficient, because right now it feels a lot more manual in that sense.
I guess it kind of comes to the spot, but if, let's say, for example, we were talking about it

(01:37:44):
previously, like what if we had something like what FIFA has, you know, the VAR system, you know,
it's maybe something that you can tie in with AI, let's say you need a particular data set of
all the different types of appeal and what is the result, can that camera system register and then

(01:38:06):
recommend a result or a score, for example. So then, obviously, you still need that human
to go and verify, okay, so this is correct, for example. So of course, this is maybe a proprietary
idea. Whoever decided to make this 10% finder fee for us, okay. Anyway, yeah, it could be that,

(01:38:30):
it could be that. So it's just making things a lot more efficient, at least on my end,
yeah, because we're always constantly running and all that. So I don't know about you, Stanley?
Well, we talk about distribution of information, that's very important, I think. You spoke to Matt,
Matt, let me tell you about incidents like something that's happening on the field of play,

(01:38:54):
it's not in plan. Usually I'll write pieces of paper, drop over there because being a delegate,
I will probably be the one that's the boat between the field of play and where he is.
There needs to be probably, I'll say, a more centralized distribution of information.

(01:39:15):
If you see what Formula One is doing, when there's a potential incident that they need to
investigate, start to have problems that's coming up to say, okay, so then this driver is being
investigated for potential violation, I think that would be something that would be interesting,

(01:39:36):
having a big set to act in this case, having this on screen. Why expect data now? Because again,
when we're talking about sports, it's not just the action, but it's the information as well.
So when you're watching something happens, it should be coming out wide. Likewise, the

(01:39:56):
previous system, probably we're still doing a bit more manual. So if everything can be a bit more
streamlined, integrated, where the coaches could put in the appeal, probably send it via an app to
the jury president, maybe give him an electronic shock or something, so that he knows, oh, I'm

(01:40:21):
receiving an appeal. Then, okay, if it's accepted, zap back at him. If it's rejected, zap the coaches
twice. Something like this. So at least have something that is a bit more streamlined and
all this could be in a centralized formation. We've been in our second Olympics. We are going to

(01:40:43):
LA. I really hope that we could get three medals so that the gold at speed can be independently
presented. I think that the athletes have been working very hard for the last six, eight years.

(01:41:13):
When we had Tokyo, they had to adapt by incorporating speed into their training.
And for speed athletes, having to attempt to do that as well. Here in Paris, we have a standalone
for speed, but they still caught S1. I think they should be given the opportunity to compete

(01:41:42):
in a straight discipline separately. That's something that's my wish. The other thing
that I really hope is that again, with us being more popular now, I hope that we
this is a good time to actually prioritize the athletes' prize money for the future events.

(01:42:10):
I think this should be given a lot more. Maybe we couldn't, we can't prioritize it in the last
four to six years because there are more urgent things that we need to do. But now we have got
more eyeballs. People are talking about sports like me. This is a good time for that.
All right, cool. Those are all the questions I had. A couple quick Discord questions that

(01:42:38):
we can go through. So the first one, how different are World Cups depending on who's
organizing them? And what are your most chaotic experiences with event organizers?
If the World Cup is organized, if it's European, I haven't been, interestingly,
I haven't been to the American World Cups. I've been to a couple of European World Cups.

(01:43:01):
If you're going to the European World Cups, it's like we've planned everything. Our trip
literally is from the airport all the way to the venue. The official hotel in Asia,
depending. In Japan, I've been to Japan. That's where I've made my way all the way to Hachioji

(01:43:26):
last year. Jakarta, you probably have somebody. So there will be some organizers who will be
offering pick-up service. So there are somebody to pick you up.
Yeah. So that actually saves you that planning and coordinating. So like in China, there's always

(01:43:47):
somebody who will pick you up from the airport. Yeah. And the dynamics of each organization,
it is actually very, very different. You have the national federations.
We are always the organizing of the competition, but they'll probably be working with

(01:44:10):
the local sub, like Germany, for example. You have FFME that is
forming a competition committee. But then in the actual execution, you will be working with them,
will be actually working with the strong team to co-run the event. So this is where it's

(01:44:36):
interesting because I'll say that in Europe, everything will be more systematic.
You would need a lot of autonomy and initiative to probably find your way in the planning process,
but working with everyone, it seems like they know what to do. And I'll say, across Europe,

(01:44:57):
it's quite uniform in how you do things and you work collaboratively with various stakeholders.
In Asia, it could be quite different. Sometimes it's only one, two or three key person that has
all the information and you need to go to that to actually solve those problems.

(01:45:19):
So again, we have quite a lot of events in China. So one of the challenges would be,
if you're going to different places in China, it does work a bit differently.
So for me, my advantage is because I speak Chinese, which is their native language,
so I will still be able to communicate to the people on the ground.

(01:45:43):
Yeah, so I'll say that dynamics is probably quite different depending on which country.
And also with this, that also means that we have to always remain very adaptable and also be
a bit, you don't have that awareness or that culture, WK culture as well.

(01:46:06):
And then most chaotic experiences with event organizers?
I felt that again, going back to Keqiao,
because I've got two chaotic experiences in Keqiao that resulted in me having to cancel

(01:46:27):
at least one round of competition. So Keqiao playing for the Asian Games, it was so chaotic
that it rained so much that the reason we have to cancel the competition was literally,
if you look at the boulder wall, the water is seeping out from the front of the wall.

(01:46:48):
Because when we announced that to the coaches that we have to cancel it,
the coaches requested to be brought out to take a look at the wall because they need to prepare
for the season. And you can see that it's literally like the boulder wall is crying
through the boardwalks. So I will say that it's always chaotic because if you look at the

(01:47:10):
facility, you look at the event, to you it's like, hey, this is a stadium that is built just for
climbing. You sort of have that full confidence that this is how future sports climbing events
should be in such a venue. But yet, the architecture didn't do the venue and the

(01:47:38):
sports enough justice. And of course, when it rains, first of all, you have to keep everything
as dry as possible. You need to keep everybody in, you need to start to sit down and make decisions
really fast. And everybody's like, oh, what's happening? Yeah, so that is always the most

(01:47:58):
chaotic for me. Yeah, so I think, well, I'm still being followed up, so I can't say for certain,
but I think largely, I think it depends on the event organizer, whether they're experienced or
not. Because ironically, one of the cons, I think that same year that a particular country

(01:48:26):
shut or woke up, and that same year, later part of the year, they had a continental event,
but it was such a distinct difference. We don't know what happened in terms of whether because
there are different camps in the whole organization or different teams, so sometimes you may get

(01:48:51):
different kind of experiences in that sense, but I think that kind of translates into what you need
to do also because, regardless of whether it's an international event or whether it's a local event,
the organizer's experience will determine how much workload you need to do, because if it's

(01:49:13):
my first time, let's say I'm an organizer, it's my first time organizing from this year,
I wouldn't know nuts about how to run an event, so there's a lot more hand-holding,
there's a lot more going back and forth trying to tell them, okay, why you should be doing this,
why should you not be doing this, so we're always going into that lens from an events management

(01:49:34):
view, and I think a lot of people don't realize this or don't know this, but for us as judges
especially, even at my level, a good 70% of it, it's events management, the judging is only 30%,
so it's really looking at it from a flow perspective, you know, what if it rains,

(01:49:56):
can the athlete walk here, can they see the wall, you know, all that stuff has to be taken into
account, but yeah, so I think it differs from organizers to organizers for sure.
In the Olympic event, I can't say, but then I think Asian Games last year was,
yeah, I think kind of piggybacking on his experience as well, it was sad because

(01:50:22):
when Stanley came in to tell the coaches, you know, they say, guys, we need to cancel the event,
the athletes visibly looked upset obviously, right, but they were so looking forward to climb
to the extent they came to us, can we still climb now in the rain, and of course we're gonna say no

(01:50:49):
because the liability, safety issue, right, so you know, it's this kind of things that you,
I wouldn't want to be in that position as well, they flew all the way in, they fly in,
do one round of qualifications and finals and then suddenly,
and there was also the same event that because of the rain, I had to judge in the raincoat,

(01:51:16):
never have I judged in a raincoat before, so it's like, it was raining,
everything was dripping wet, and then you get a tablet, and then you have like, I have to,
my judge still had to key in, scoring, right, and I'm like that, she better not get water inside,
you know, it's like, if not, it's gonna scoop up everything. Yeah, lucky the water didn't

(01:51:37):
fill up the trench. Yeah. You see the trench? So yeah, it's kinda shallow, so the judges are
sitting, it's like a long-ass bathtub, it depends on how you look at it, so we were in there,
right, so and yeah, we couldn't move, as then, yeah, we had to wear a raincoat,
I was like wiping stuff for my judge to, you know, yeah, it was all over the place, yeah.

(01:52:05):
We made it, but. Yeah, no, it's really uncomfortable. I remember even just like watching,
it was, it was really uncomfortable, I kind of was kind of miserable. It was, yeah. Yeah,
there was one about if national federations should be the ones organizing World Cups or
if other, I guess, maybe like corporations are viable. Okay, yeah, so I know that previously

(01:52:36):
for all the World Cups application, it needs to be submitted by the National Federation.
So that means that with that process, that means that if there is a commercial
organization that wishes to organize it, probably they'll need to work with the National Federation,

(01:53:02):
right, then to make an application. I've seen last year's application form
that's available on iFNC. It states that the application seems to be now probably
a product to not just the Federation, but probably the city councils as well.

(01:53:28):
So that could be like, for example, the city of Madrid wants to apply for
iFNC World Cup instead of the French Federation. I think that probably is a possibility, right?
Yeah. So, yeah, so it seems like, you know, there's probably iFNC is actually looking at

(01:53:53):
having different stakeholders to organize more events in this case.
You see NEOM could see that.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Is that an example of it?
Right? Kind of, right?
Yeah. NEOM could be interested to know that NEOM is in the iFNC, so that would probably be the
case because if you look at the infrastructure from NEOM, there was a lot of mention regarding

(01:54:19):
the National Federation of Digital Society, Climate Federation.
Okay. Cool. Yeah. Any other final thoughts?
Yeah. People has always been asking. Well, I always have friends who's coming in. Hey,
why are you here in Singapore? You're not a Slovenia? Are you not a Copa or whatever? Yeah.

(01:54:43):
So, actually, I don't go to everywhere. I think there are five event delegates. So,
I think we rotate the events. A lot of people's been, sometimes people's been asking me, oh,
what do I do? How do I get to become RIPC judge? So, like I said, I shared at the beginning that

(01:55:07):
actually becoming an RIPC judge is only a start of the journey. Being an RIPC judge on paper,
doesn't mean that you get nominated immediately. So, it took me really a few years
to get my first nomination. A few years to get my second nomination before I was,

(01:55:28):
yeah, I was engaged more regularly. So, it's really a lot of patience and also at the same
time, a lot of self-development. You need to be constantly engaged, engaging yourself,
competitions. Nowadays, you have much better resources because you have YouTube.

(01:55:50):
If it's not Joe Block, at least in Asia, you have to be able to access RIPC brands on YouTube.
So, that gives you a very good resources to looking at the rounds and comparing the results
based on one judgment. And it's also important that to most to say, if you aspire to be RFS

(01:56:17):
judge, it's not just judging, but you need to have an overview of the entire competition process.
So, literally it means from the point that the athletes check it into the warming up isolation
until the end. So, you need to know everything. Yeah. So, with that process,

(01:56:38):
understanding that process would help you to have a clear idea of how you conceptualize certain
things that helps you with your decision making process. And of course, a big part is the problem
solving. So, I think it's really important to constantly update yourself, be in the know of

(01:57:00):
what's happening. So, I think that even on my end, I can personally say that because I need to be
aware. Because it's like you don't want to end up being passive. So, as I mentioned earlier on,
you're doing a button facing role, right? So, you want to be a bit more active in that sense. So,

(01:57:28):
I personally watch the YouTube live streams. To be fair, my commitments might be slightly different.
I can wake up at 2am in Singapore just to watch Solarize. But that's because I choose to do it,
right? Of course, no one's stopping you to watch the replays, but at that time,

(01:57:51):
you didn't know the results. So, spoiler! Okay, anyway. But I think, words of wisdom, I would say
I personally can attest to this because I started from the bottom, right? So, I was a national judge,
still a national judge. I went to Continental and then through recommendations and all that,

(01:58:16):
I was shortlisted to get into Punggol Chef, right? So, in all that years,
I think a lot of times, I kept that mindset of take what you can. So, it came to a point where
if they appoint you, just take it because to me, that's like if you play games, that's

(01:58:39):
basically gaining XP, getting experience, right? No matter where you go, you're going to gain
experience and every competition is going to be different for sure and patience is definitely
one of it because you don't become an IFFC judge, you don't be a judge for that matter overnight,
right? So, you need to have patience, patience not only in terms of the process but with people

(01:59:02):
who probably look down on you because of your age. I've had judges who blatantly ignore me
and show me away because they thought I was some stranger on the ground only to find out later on
where they had problems they came to me. Then they realized like, oh okay, so you're the IFFC

(01:59:24):
guys. I was like, oh wow, now they recognize me. So, you know, that sort of solves. For me,
yeah, I'm 33 this year so I'm considered one of the younger judges. Typically, judges in the
body area, they tend to be slightly older than I am. So I think don't, I guess, as much as age

(01:59:48):
is a number, it is also a number, right? It can be an issue where people be like, oh, can you
really believe this guy? But I think that's where you have to prove yourself. If you can make it,
you can make it. If you cannot, it means you cannot. So yeah, so patience, dedication,

(02:00:08):
relentlessness, I guess. You have to be, got to be hungry for it. So if you're not, yeah.
Yeah, it's a lot of, it's a lot of work for not much recognition.
It's sacrifice.
Yeah, well, I think that is everything I had then. That's all the questions I had. Thanks
for joining me. Do you want to let people know where they can find you?

(02:00:31):
Yeah, I think I'm okay. We posted on Instagram. So yeah, I post nonsense once in a while. So
yeah, but yeah, then put that link.
Yeah, you can just put the link. If they need to approach me, if they need to get the National
Federation to reach out to me or anything, yeah, I'm happy. So if you have questions,

(02:00:52):
yeah, feel free to write to me. I'll be happy to reply. Although, yeah, my Instagram account,
I don't really actually put a lot of photos, but I'm still responsive to messages.
I will link those below in case people have questions.
Okay, thank you. Amazing to talk to you guys.
All right. Thank you so much, Jenny. Okay. Thank you, Jenny.

(02:01:13):
Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast. Don't forget to
like and subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise, you are a super big climber.
If you're listening on a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you rate it five stars,
and you can continue the discussion on the free
competition climbing discord linked in the description. Thanks again for listening.

All Episodes

Ep 28: Stanley & Zulazfar - The Pressure on IFSC Judges

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 28: Stanley & Zulazfar - The Pressure on IFSC Judges