TRENDING: "The Curious Case of Natalia Grace" is Back- Mega Mix Recap: Ep 3

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
That is so fucked up. It's fucked up, so fucked up,
it is just so dumb fuck up, that's fucked up.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hey, you guys, it's Ashley your host. Welcome back to
That's So Fucked Up, a podcast about things that make
you say that's so fucked up and speaking of fucked
up things in true Ashley fashion. On the way home
from the Beyond the Crime convention in New Mexico last

(00:38):
weekend and shout out to Beyond the Case with Crystal
Gutierrez and her social media and events coordinator Zoe Sanchez.
It was really really awesome, y'all, and I really suggest
that you check out Crystal's YouTube channel Beyond the Crime
and Uh. Anyways, on the way home from that, I
broke down in a very small town in Colorado and

(01:02):
was stuck there until Thursday with a broken car waiting
for parts. So unfortunately, between our audio issues and my
car issues, we are a little bit behind the schedule.
So here's the recaps of last season of Natalia Grace
episodes five and six, and we have the recaps of
the first two episodes of the brand new season coming out.

(01:26):
So thanks so much for your patience. Let's get into it.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
Let's opening, let's set the scene.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:34):
We ended whatever you all talked about last time. We
ended with what was how did the last sentence go
of the or you don't have it?

Speaker 3 (01:41):
You might not have it.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
You were like, you're like, all right, let's go, and
I was like mm hmm, and then took a sip
of my coffee. I don't remember what the last sentence was.
Oh my goodness, I.

Speaker 4 (01:50):
Just met like the last the last I don't It's okay.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
I was just thinking, like, Lante, you are put for me,
you are put me on the I mean I could.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
That was not anyway all right. Beginning of this episode starts.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
With Michael and Natalia are back together to have a chat.
So we hear from the legal expert that we've been
talking to, Beth Carras, and she tells us that Michael's lawyer,
Terrence Kinnard, and antwine Man's Natalia's guardian can't be there,
so it's just Natalia and Michael. Oh was the last

(02:27):
episode where Michael stormed off?

Speaker 4 (02:31):
I think it was good one before. I don't think
it was the last. Okay, when you and I were talking,
we talked about it.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Oh, Okay, Well, obviously it didn't go super well with
the lawyers in the course in there, so I tried, oh,
if y'all missed my Oscar winning performance, make sure you
catch that in episode two. I think maybe one. But
thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
So it was amazing.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
So let's see here. Chris says that Michael really wants
some resolution so he can put this to rest, and
that Natalia really needs some answers about why she was
treated the way she was. As Natalia straps on her
custom orthopedic shoes, which listen, those fucking doctors thirty thousand

(03:21):
dollars for those shoes in what universe?

Speaker 4 (03:25):
And they kind of look like they belong in American
Girl Doll magazine, like the way they look on the outside,
like what you'd buy for your American doll.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, Like they're not all right, they're just they're just.

Speaker 4 (03:37):
They're just they're basically plane, that's what I mean. Like,
you know, it's plain black, like.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Mary Jane's almost but boots but boots more. It's kind
of a kind of a combo. Yeah, but it's just
I just thought, I don't know what kind of doctor
makes those kind of shoes, But fucking you should be
ashamed of yourself because that's a ridiculous price tag. AnyWho.
So she's putting on her shoes and she says that
she does want to hear Michael out quote, but I'm

(04:02):
kind of expecting the unexpected here. I think I'm just
really nervous about what he says and how it will
affect me. I have a lot of questions and all
I'm asking is that he just answers them. I'm legit
nervous right now. Like all she wants is like some
answers and validations that she just.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
Needs to be made to understand. And then there's like no,
like she just needs that closure.

Speaker 5 (04:27):
I feel like my story is so so very very
different in than Natalia's in every way, but I relate
with so many of her feelings.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
So yeah, that's what happens when it's been a rough Yeah,
wells crazy Like oh you too, so, Michael says, quote
meeting Natalia. I'm looking for all these different pieces of
warning signs, like an early warning system, right, you know,
for people like my mother who grew up in the
fifth dies and sixties and they all and they had

(05:02):
to deal with things like nuclear bomb sirens. They're waiting
for any sound to tell you something's falling. If I'm talking,
if I'm talking to Natalia and I hear I can't whistle, mimic,
he like whistles a mimics a whistle falling. He says,
is that is that the wind? And then he like

(05:22):
looks around and like mimics something else falling, and he goes, Huh,
it's not falling. I'm on edge and on nerve. It's
just like, what are you talking about, dude?

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Are we right now? What's going on?

Speaker 2 (05:36):
He's looking for warning systems and for his mom there
was nuclear bomb sirens, and so he's waiting to hear
bomb sirens. But what I mean is he actually hearing
wind and things are falling but they're not. And he's
on nerve, which I actually don't know what that means.

Speaker 3 (05:53):
On our nerves is what I think.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
He's on, Yeah, on my nerves, on my last fucking nerve.
And shout out to Peggy, Peggy pe who is on
the live chat right now and helped me with notes
for this. Thank you, Peggy. It helps a lot when
I don't have to kind of watch every episode twice

(06:15):
two because I keep rewinding and re you know, I mean,
I'll end up rewatching usually stuff a couple times just
to like get notes and then make sure that I
got everything.

Speaker 3 (06:25):
And yeah, so it's.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Always really nice when I have people to help me
take notes. So Peggy, I thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
I yus.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
So we now flash back to Natalia as a small child. Okay,
you guys, I feel like this should be an obvious
one at this point, but trigger warning for awful things
being done to a child. So we see a video
of Natalia with her head against the wall. She's obviously

(06:55):
a child. While Christine is saying, since you're just fighting, fighting, fighting,
you're going to need to have time on the wall,
Natalia says, why didn't he step in when I was
fighting with Christine? Like, why didn't Michael defend me? Why
didn't Michael even just take me out of there. That's
obviously Natalia as an adult responding to that. So I should,

(07:17):
I guess, sort of set the scene that a lot
of times the producers of the show are showing somebody
a video like Beth carras the legal expert that we
hear from a lot or Michael or Natalia, and then
they're often reacting or analyzing that video.

Speaker 4 (07:34):
So, what is time on the wall? Is being asked,
and I kind of feel like that's a question we
should answer.

Speaker 3 (07:40):
Oh so, I mean with her, it looked like she
just had to put her Oh you weren't with me
on that now? Her head on the wall?

Speaker 4 (07:46):
Yeah, Like it's like being in the corner, but instead
her head was on the wall. What I thought, because
that's what I've heard before, is when you say time
on the wall usually means you're having to squat with
your hands out in front of you. That's often people
refer to that as well as on the wall. Oh okay,
I mean I know that people use that as a
punishment for their kids. Yeah, yeah, squats on the wall thing,

(08:08):
and that's often referred to as on the wall, but
hers is more like a corner.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
So, and she's in the corner, but with her head
on the wall instead, not a corner.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
And I've actually seen this done, you know, in videos
in troubled teen industry facilities where they'll wa yeah, they'll
just have to go stand and I don't know how
long they make people do the fucking squats, but they
she would have Natalia stand against the wall with her
forehead and nose on the wall for hours at a time,

(08:40):
and like all evening. Yeah, and like to the point
where Natalia soiled herself while she was standing there, because
she's a fucking child and you can't help yourself after
a while, right, And also with her form of Dwarfism, well,
it's it's actually something else that leads to just dwarf is.
It's the dystropic fat Oh.

Speaker 3 (09:02):
Yeah, I can't remember. Yeah, I don't remember how to say.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
That diastrophic dysplasia there it is, so yeah, it's a
hard one to remember, feel on it. So that is
the disorder that Natalia has that actually leads to her Dwarfism,
and it's a really rare disorder and it makes it
really part of me. It makes it really really hard
for people with that disorder to I mean, they have

(09:28):
very limited range of motion, they don't have very much strength.
They often can't grab things fully. So Natalia is trying
to at one point grab a knife to show like, motherfucker,
I couldn't even I can't even grap it hold a
knife for long enough to stab.

Speaker 4 (09:43):
You, like yeah, because trust me, if I could have,
there'd be a different discussion. There would be a stab, Like,
there's no question in my mind that, like, if it
was me, it would be over. So if she could have,
don't you think she would have? I'm just, you know,
hypothetically saying.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
Well, she was fucking so.

Speaker 4 (10:01):
But if I'm saying, if they were making up this
whole thing about her carrying around a knife all the time,
it's like, you didn't you didn't stay awake.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
All the time.

Speaker 4 (10:08):
So if she really was doing that stuff to really
kill y'all, y'all, don't think she would have at least
made an attempt.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yeah, and just standing we'll actually get into this in
the next episode about how you know, She's like, how
would I even have got to a knife? And he's like,
I don't know. And then there's some oh, yes, there's
some debate about it. So but I will say, of course,
they they keep doing things to plant seeds of doubt

(10:36):
in your mind. But listen, go listen to my episode
with Nick Thompson from Love Is Blind. Y'all. He told
me he spilled the fucking tea about what goes behind
the scenes, what goes on behind the scenes on reality
TV and when you have networks like ID that are

(10:58):
garbage producing shop docs, like they don't care about getting
the real story out, that like just cementing it in
your mind that hey, this was a child and she
is a victim and that's that. It's like, is she
It's like, can we stop that, you fucking assholes? Yeah,

(11:23):
so back back to the documentary unless right, Yeah, okay,
let's go. Okay. So you know, Natalia's wondering why Michael
didn't take her out of there. Antoine Man's, Natalia's guardian, says,
I'm hopeful that something is really gonna uncover the truth
and that we're one step closer to getting justice done again.
We talked to Terence Kimmeard, who is Michael's lawyer and

(11:46):
a piece of garbage, and he says, quote, I don't
view Natalia as a devil, but I don't view her
as an angel. There's something sinister about her. Yeah, she's
had years of trauma since the fucking time she was born.
Pas me.

Speaker 4 (12:03):
Literally, bro, have you looked in the mirror at least
one time today and realized who's really sinister?

Speaker 3 (12:09):
It's fucking staring at you. What he's done is sinister? Man?

Speaker 2 (12:13):
Right, Also, Brennan just asked, is I D owned by
the same company as TLC, And I think they are
under the same umbrella.

Speaker 3 (12:20):
Yeah, I don't know, because that whole all.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
That garbage moved over to Max and really polluted it
because HBO is television elevated and all of that, even
though I know I'm covering it. Yeah, it is hot gabbage.
So yes, I think if anybody in the chat, you know,
wants to Google and let me know, I'll announce it.
But yeah, I do think that it's the same kind

(12:43):
of overarching umbrella company.

Speaker 3 (12:45):
And yeah, man.

Speaker 2 (12:47):
They just they give zero fox about anybody's well being
and are very much all about just ratings.

Speaker 3 (12:57):
It's really sad, honestly, it's really sad. It's really good stuff.

Speaker 4 (13:00):
It's like I would be really pissed if it was
my family member being slandered like.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
That exploited and yeah, like it's very exploitative.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
Everywhere Natalia has been, this is still Terrence Kinner talking
drama follows. Everywhere Natalia has been, families have been an upheaval.
My opinion, Natalia is a very damaged person who will
hurt others before the provot, before the proverbial. They hurt me. Listen, Terence,
let me tell you a little story today a family

(13:32):
member of mine calling me and saying some bullshit and
me being a damaged person, and then me getting on
to my therapy session and like, my poor therapist, bless
her heart. I know she's got it. Sometimes probably hop
in there real quick and adjust the volume because oh,
your girl lost it. And I was like, I'm gonna

(13:54):
lock him, and she's like, I would, you know, let's
let's talk about maybe exploring the option of not doing that,
because I'm definitely like a fuck you, I'll block you first.
I don't like what you said. Done, thank you by
And I feel kind of bad because I know some
of my friends like, get a little bit of nervous,
get a little bit nervous about that. And I'm also

(14:15):
but like, but don't fuck around and you won't have
to find out. Like it's that's right, simple, nice the
way it is, right, Yeah, Chanta, you get me, You
get me. It's owned by the Warner's brother Discovery. Hi Fallen, Yay,
you guys Fallen Fallen, the co host is and the
chart Okay. Warner Brothers. Discovery owns TLC and ID. Of course,

(14:38):
of course they do. Of course they do. Shame on
you guys. But listen, I had to cover this regardless
of what network made it, because it's the first time
that Natalia has publicly spoken, and this is the network
that she chose to do it with, and therefore, I,
you know, I felt that this should be talked about. Okay,
So now we see Natalia walking into the front door

(15:01):
of the house where the it's probably an Airbnb or
something where they're filming.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
She's coming, assuming that's what it was. It looked like
kind of the same place, didn't it look?

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Okay? Can I tell you that not everybody on The
Bachelor who makes it to the final round has a
family with a super nice house? What that is like?
Not always their houses? Bitch, Listen, the curtain has been
opened that no, me neither. But no, they want it

(15:33):
to like look good if somebody lives in like imagine
if somebody's parents were fucking hoarders and they lived in
like you know.

Speaker 4 (15:40):
I'm saying that I assumed they were put in the
house for the filming.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
I didn't assume that they had.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Oh okay, Sean.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
That I have some intellect.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Sorry that sorry that I don't believe everything I see
on reality TV? Okay, Shaunte or.

Speaker 4 (15:58):
One side of your mouth saying one thing about TLC
and then the other like did you know? It's like, yeah,
I fucking knew. I'll trust the damn thing that comes
out of that.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
All right, listen, you think.

Speaker 4 (16:09):
One of those girls like also, there's so many like
almost the same figure and all that. It's like they
didn't apply, they got a hand pick. Let's not play around.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Here anyway, stop it?

Speaker 3 (16:19):
Are you kidding me? I can say that for sure,
but we got.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
To talk to Nick. Let's yeah, okay, I can't even Also,
I found just mentioned that, yes, a TLC who has
brought what TLC is the lovely company who brought us
the duggers? Uh fucking and how many however, goddamn many

(16:42):
kids they were having and counting? So yeah, hot garbage,
get it together. You try Warner Brothers, Discovery, you tray Ash. Okay,
So we've seen Italia walking into I guess what's definitely
a rented house according to Schante with you know her
walker and and Michael pulls up in his two seat
convertible with his red baseball cap on backward music blaring, because,

(17:09):
as we know, if Michael Learnet is nothing but a bad.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
Car, yeah, that's a sports cars and ship.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Oh god, he loves a sports car. And you know
what sports cars are cool for, like Barbie's and girls
who like Barbie.

Speaker 3 (17:25):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
I like Barbie. I think I could drive like I
could drive a fucking convertible around. But if you're my
date in a hypothetical situation where I don't have a
partner and you're showing up in a convertible, it's that's
that's a pretty hard no for me right away.

Speaker 4 (17:44):
Yeah, sure, Oh there's lots of red flags when he
rolls rolls up.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
My friend had an emergency, I have to go.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
I don't even have a watch.

Speaker 3 (17:53):
That's crazy, it's not I can't.

Speaker 4 (17:57):
But when he rolled up with that, when he rolled up,
all the red flags were just well, waving in the
wind at the car, the way that he'd style his hair.

Speaker 3 (18:05):
It just always one package of no.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
Okay. I'm so curious though, if I'm being manipulated and
duped or like what your thoughts are. But we'll get
to that.

Speaker 4 (18:14):
So they stay down to tie with manipulating and duping
you to believing that even a dick.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
And I was like, what the no, no, no, no, no,
He's definitely a dick. But no, and okay, because this
doesn't negate the fact that he's like, definitely a giant
douche canoe. That man looks like he has some serious
mental issues.

Speaker 3 (18:35):
Oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
And I think that standing by and letting the monster
be the monster and being an accomplice is generally in
certain situations, in my mind, will automatically make you the
worst person. And I do believe, but I don't believe

(18:58):
everything he says, like at all. It's not a hook
line or sinker. Hook line and sinker. I do believe
that Michael was a victim of Christine's abuse, whether that
was mental emotional. I mean, it doesn't sound like you know,
I think people people forget that mental and emotional abuse

(19:18):
are very real. And you know, just because she wasn't
sexually abusing him or hitting him, you know, that doesn't
mean that he sounds sincere When he says that he
was also a victim of Christine. I also though, thinks
that I me also thinks that I was like.

Speaker 4 (19:41):
That.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
When he continues to not take responsibility or accountability and say, oh,
we had the same monster. It's like you're not validating
Natalia's experience because yes, you may have also abused been
abused by her, but not to the fucking extent that
Natalia was, and you also stood by.

Speaker 4 (20:00):
In my most popular opinion, I think that when you
have two very broken individuals and not meaning that in
a way of like the way that they refer to
her being broken, I just mean like both of them
are like, you know, traumatized, yeah, in multiple ways, and
then neither one of you have healed and you try

(20:21):
to come together and talk. It's never a healing thing
for anyone because no one has anything.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
Like worked through.

Speaker 4 (20:28):
Yet they're like forcing something that shouldn't have been started. Yeah,
because if he would have gotten more help and dealt
with his shit, which I don't think it's just Christine.
I'm sure he has hardcore childhood trauma.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
Just gonna say, we don't know anything about his background either,
like we don't know anything that happened in the forty
years leading up to him meeting Natalia, and I would
venture to say it wasn't great.

Speaker 4 (20:53):
No, But my thing is is that if you did
have this person over here, who healed and then went
to the person I had wronged. I think it would
be a different discussion and a different way of handling
it because he's had the help he needed and the
reassurance and the like validation that he needed from things
that happened to him to be able to face what
he did. I think that's really where the crayon was broken, Like,

(21:17):
let's not force something until it's time. And I think
they forced it for the show.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
But it's such good TV. Chante.

Speaker 3 (21:24):
I don't know, but I'm just saying.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
And again, I think I think I should clarify for
anybody that didn't know that I was being very sarcastic there.

Speaker 4 (21:32):
Just in case y'all can't read, Just in case, you know,
you know know, we never know about people, and that's fine,
But I do find it quite interesting, like because he
wanted to tell her everything because they had this joint
trauma that they shared, and he thought, the more I
tell her, the more she'll understand where I'm coming from,
because she also was there instead of him dealing with

(21:53):
the shit and then saying I fucked up.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
I wasn't there for you, Like.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
Hold the fuck on, did I get manipulated by Michael
Did he use the same gas lading techniques on Italia
that have been used on me? And I just fucking
was like, h yah, I'm buying it. Ye shut up,
I'm smoking it. I'm sipping it through a street doing it.
At the same time, I'm like, yeah, okay, he's so sorry.

(22:18):
I think, right, I think I'm not sorry. But also
if I were in Italia, I'd be like, cool, that's
a bummer. I'm sorry that that happened to you and
your wife, who you know was technically your equal. I
understand that you were a victim of hers as well,
abused me right in front of you as you fucking watched,

(22:40):
And uh so, why don't you just put your own
feelings aside for a second?

Speaker 4 (22:45):
I just and also like that whole it felt like
all he was doing in that was trying to make
himself feel better and get validation just from her because
he felt like that was what he needed to be
better and being I'm a good guy. I'm a good
guy like that phrase. People don't say that if they're
fucking good guy, You're not a good guy, And you
have to say it over and over again.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
It needs to be reaffirmed that listen for anybody who
can't make the next episode, you should, but spoilers, no, no, spoilers,
get the shucks out of here, Ashley. Okay, okay, okay.

Speaker 3 (23:16):
So I'm not spoiling.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
No. I was about to do one and then I
said no. Okay. So they sit down to talk and
Natalia says hi. Michael takes a drink of water and
size which he does so much throughout this, and says, so,
where were we? I think I think this is picking
up after the storm off?

Speaker 3 (23:36):
I think no, No, I promise you it isn't.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
When is it picking up? Just another day?

Speaker 3 (23:42):
I don't know because I didn't talk about it with you.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
Oh god, damn it.

Speaker 4 (23:47):
You should have had the notes up from the last
episode side bite kidding.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
And well sorry, I have the notes for the next
episode up side by side. My bad that I forgot too. Okay, listen, listen,
I'm pulling up notes.

Speaker 3 (24:02):
For okay, okay, oh you actually are.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
House of Horrors. It ends with well, no hold on this,
like episode isn't It's it's all background about in Italia.
It's not any interviews with Michael.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
That's what I was saying. Did I not. Oh, I
don't know. I said that.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
When the fuck did you say that? Get out of.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
Here to do that?

Speaker 4 (24:28):
I literally said, it was the end of the episode.
You and I talked about that. He stormed out and
that was the end of that episode.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
Oh okay, okay, I know, but I didn't know what
like what went on in this episode, so we didn't
really see Michael. But the last thing we do see
is Natalia going to get officially adopted by the Man's Yes,
did you know that? Why didn't you just say that?

Speaker 3 (24:51):
No?

Speaker 4 (24:52):
No, no, no, no, no, that's not that's I don't
know doubt. And I was like, yes, I do remember that.
I was the acknowledging you Like, yes, okay, I do
remember that happened.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Okay, cool, So now where ever speed that's me, that's right, okay.
I was like, wait, is this like a quiz that
pop quizz?

Speaker 3 (25:10):
I mean, I'm bitch here, okay, I don't.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
Like pop quizzes in the middle of live episodes, ask Fallen.

Speaker 3 (25:18):
She'll here it is, Fallen. You're a wonderworker.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, I mean yeah. So, uh, Michael says, I believe
the situation we were on was I believe the question
we were on was why didn't I leave Christine. It's
difficult to understand. But after fifteen plus years of being
put down and degraded and controlled, I'm threatened. I didn't
have any strength at all to stand up to her.
He brings up an example of the movie Monsters, Inc.

(25:45):
And how quote all these kids around the world that
have the same monster, but they don't know it. We
had the same monster and we didn't know it for years.
Natalia pomps her forehead and starts to cry, and Michael
says that everyone that knows Christine now calls her by
the name evil, and he said, every now and then,

(26:06):
I'll call her the wicked Witch of the South. And
this makes Natalia laugh. She's I think she's honestly, I
think part of the reason she palms her forehead and
starts to cry is because she like is realizing at
that moment she's not going to get out of him
what she wants sing like that he's not going to
be like, yeah, you know what I fucked up.

Speaker 4 (26:27):
Like he's like never going to say, listen, we were
both never going to say that.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
Victims of abuse in that house true analogy.

Speaker 3 (26:37):
That whole Monsters analogy like we're fuck.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Back with su Yeah.

Speaker 3 (26:42):
No im.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
Beth Carrass is analyzing this video and she says, from
the second interview that Michael gave us, he was blaming
Christine for a lot of the dysfunction in the household,
and he's continuing to do that in this conversation, and
Natalia is bonding with him a little bit, you know,
having their little trauma bonding that they were abused by
Christine in different ways, but that they were both victims

(27:07):
of Christine. You can see Italia warming up a little
bit to him. So Carrass believes that Michael is being
careful to not admit any kind of liability, probably because
Terence Kinnard, his stupid lawyer, was like, I don't say anything.

Speaker 3 (27:25):
Oh you know he did. He was like, don't go
in there and admit to anything you did wrong.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
Oh yeah, it's fairy.

Speaker 4 (27:29):
The other part that I struggle with knowing like what
part of it was him really protecting himself and what
part of it was like and I feel like they're
way too overlapped.

Speaker 3 (27:38):
It's a struggle, it is.

Speaker 4 (27:39):
Yeah, because like I think there are parts that he
might would tell her or admit to, but I think
he was told not to in some instances. I'm not
saying he's open to it all because he reacted the
way he reacted.

Speaker 2 (27:50):
I can't wait until their NDAs with ID are up
non disclosure agreements and the Statute of limitations is up,
because I think Michael will be more forthcoming when he
knows there won't be any legal percussions. And I do

(28:10):
think that. I don't know. I don't ah, he just
I just he's like got some of my sympathy, and
I don't like, I don't know how much he deserves it.
And I feel confused. But okay, so let me I'll
just keep going. Natalia asks Michael, what do you know

(28:30):
that Christine did to me? He says, I know some things,
others I just learned. And then this is gonna sound silly.
I'm afraid of what I don't know. Like that's not me,
that's him. I know a little, I don't know a lot.
It's a very long answer. It could take us a week,
she says, just the highlights. So he laughs and is like, well, golly.

Speaker 3 (28:54):
Golly, oh, I just can't I know.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
I'm so afraid, Oh Geeker will okers I'm so afraid
of the things I don't know about. And I don't
want to know the things I don't know about because
I know they're all terrible and I'd rather just not
know that there's such horrible things in the world. While
he's sniffling and biting his bottom lip. Hey, you know what, Michael,

(29:21):
Do you know what my every waking minute consists of?
And listen, it's by choice and I'm fucking so happy
and honored to do it. But all I do every
day is look at the fucking horrible things in the world,
because listen, I don't think that. If you're not like
a newsperson, because the news gives you anxiety, don't watch

(29:41):
the news. I get my news from my boyfriend, who
reads news from reputable sources and then relays the highlights
to me and Jimmy Kimmel because I can't. Yes, I
can't take it in other it's not digestible for me.
In other means, it's way too depressing, which is why
I do the podcast with a humorous spin, because I

(30:03):
can't talk about this without laughing.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
Yeah, I would freak the fuck out.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
So it's like, okay, you know what, Michael. Sorry, Welcome
to being a grownup. You have to face the horrible
things that are in the world, especially when you were
a part of perpetrating them.

Speaker 4 (30:17):
And also that right there is the attitude and reason
why things don't get better for people.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
Whether it's you know, people who are.

Speaker 4 (30:24):
A part of the LGBTQ community, the people who are
people of color, anybody that has had any type of
things happening to them, it's because the people like them
that won't wake the hell up and literally be like, Okay,
let me figure out what's going on so I can
help be part of the solution.

Speaker 3 (30:38):
That's privilege. One oh one.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
Bro, Listen, you guys. I'm only going to say this
once right now, but listen, like I'm saying, these are
important ass words. Google Project twenty twenty five, and then
message me and tell me that it's not the scariest
fucking thing you have ever seen, not going into it further,
Project twenty twenty five. Google it after this, you guys,

(31:04):
because it's we're busy right now, but woo, the world's ending. Okay,
it's fine. We're just gonna focus on this instead because
it doesn't directly affect us except for super bumming me emotionally.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
Yeah, mentally.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Other than that, it's we're fine.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
It's fine.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
It's just touching on some personal am it's whatever, reinforce.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
Throw on some salt. No one cares goo.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
But the thing is like people need to know, yes,
they need.

Speaker 3 (31:37):
You cannot put in the dark.

Speaker 4 (31:38):
No, I mean, I get why you want to protect
yourself and there are times when you take breaks.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah I'm not saying don't take breaks, but please hear me.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
Michael is in of you.

Speaker 4 (31:46):
Is saying that Michael's refusing. He's just refusing to be
a real person in the real world.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
And it's like, dude, you're half of the problem here.
You have to you are half of the horrible things
in the world in this situation. So beths is like,
obviously he's continuing to deflect he, she says. She says
his lawyer may have advised Michael how to pivot away

(32:11):
from an answer, you know, deflect it to Christine. It's
a brilliant deflection end quote. It really is, because it's
it's never it's Christine made me do it, And.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
Yeah, you know, so much more easier to handle.

Speaker 4 (32:24):
Even though if he saw how he really looked, he
might would be like, oh shit.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
Right, it's like, oh we have we can uh uh
I can't. Okay, I just I got distracted by something.

Speaker 3 (32:35):
In the tat It's fine.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
Well, Brendan said, I have a feeling I'm not going
to be able to sleep tonight after googling that. So,
you guys, trigger warning, it's upsetting Project twenty twenty five. Listen,
anytime you hear Project anything, it's not good. Do you
know it's no dude project Modern Day Night. I just
found out about it. It's like fully a fucking like
toxic masculinity cult. It's like crazy projects or a no

(33:02):
go you guys, no projects. Okay, sorry, I'm gonna move on.
But trigger warning if you look that up. But it's
fucked up, Okay, chante, I gotta move on. Okay.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
So, Terrence Kidder, I'm not holding you back. So I'm
gonna put that out there.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
He says, quote on my back right a fallin one
hundred percent does? He says, quote, I absolutely think he
suffers from PTSD as a result of his marriage. I
think he still has a lot of mental trauma as
a result of the loss of his marriage, which Terrence,
maybe fucking get your tits together a little bit more

(33:37):
because it would weigh it would be way more convincing
if you said that he had a lot of mental
trauma from the loss of his children, Like, yeah, it
sounds like he was monstered to the fucking devil according
to him. So so you, as his attorney, are saying, oh,
he's so sad that he lost and don't get it

(33:59):
fucked and twisted. You guys, you can be in a
relationship with a fucking abuser who traumatizes the shit out
of you and miss and love them for the rest
of your life, like absolutely, you know. It's it's crazy
how that shit works. So I'm not saying that he
wouldn't have been feeling a huge loss and grief from
the end of his marriage. But like he says later

(34:21):
in the documentary that he hasn't seen his kids for
ten years, Yeah, that's.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
The thing, right, maybe that should be the focal point.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
Yeah, listen, Michael, I could represent you better, except I
wouldn't because you're.

Speaker 3 (34:34):
Terrence terrifying a little bit.

Speaker 4 (34:37):
I don't know if you remember, I don't know which
season it was in, But like one of his guys
that works on his team is like eating a donut He's.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
Like, put down the donut.

Speaker 2 (34:46):
Oh my god. I would be like, this isn't the
disenvironment if I want.

Speaker 4 (34:53):
He said, no, I'm serious, put it down. And he
was like, it's so funny, y'all. You haven't seen it.

Speaker 3 (34:57):
Like it's a fine just out clip because it's infarious.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
Terrence Kinner did that.

Speaker 3 (35:03):
The guys in the room.

Speaker 4 (35:04):
It was during the lawsuit. Wow, they were all sitting
around that little table, stuck.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
Around and find out with Terrence. Guys. Shit, so are y'all, No,
it's it's it's good info. Listen. You got to drop
juicy morsels in like they're hot when you've got them.

Speaker 3 (35:21):
But it came to me real quick.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
That was a lot, okay. Natalia thinks that Michael is
quote just trying to get the criticism of the public
off of him, trying to use sympathy like I was
victimized too, Please don't come after me. Natalia says she
sees that Michael was a victim, but that he was
also a perpetrator. Quote, he was an accomplice of it

(35:43):
all too. If Christine was his so called monster, he
could have fought her. I couldn't. Again, I'm gonna throw
it out there that I don't think it's that simple
that people can just quote fight their monsters. And I
also want to fucking emphasize the shit out of the
fact that men can absolutely be victims of abuse. That's

(36:04):
something I've been trying to focus on kind of a
lot lately, because I've had a little hashtag of the
pod for quite a while that's hashtag don't trust men.
I never put it any like in posts. We just
like say it because a lot of the crimes LT
we hear about are perpetrated by men. And the thing

(36:24):
is is that it does happen less, but abuses perpetrated
on men all the time, and it's just something that's
not talked about. So I do want to say that.
It's like, oh, well, just because because let's for a
second switch the roles and pretend that Michael is Christine
and Christinea is saying I was abused by that man,

(36:46):
like I didn't feel like I could stand up to
him because he had been bullying me and degrading me
for years and I just didn't felt feel like I
had it in me to stand up or leave. We
would fucking one hundred percent be like, yeah, like think
about how different the fucking reaction would be. Also the
fact that everything Michael says is calculated and a performance

(37:10):
totally factors into how we feel. I just wanted to
point it out that it's not as simple as like, oh, well,
why didn't you fight her? Why didn't you leave?

Speaker 4 (37:19):
And honestly, when it comes to abuse that happens two men,
I think it's way more than we know it is
because they also feel they can't talk about so.

Speaker 2 (37:28):
Like just because society says not to.

Speaker 4 (37:30):
Right, you can't cry or act like you're innocent and
like pretend that you're weak or whatever.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
But you know, it is an acceptable emotion anger. That's
that's what's okay for men. It's yeah, it's really ridiculous.
For us, it's like we wonder how yeah, because then
we're just cunts. Yeah, but it's but it could be anyways, listen,
fat fact, I can call myself around find out FAFO.

(37:58):
So Natalia asks about, you know, what was the conversation
regarding just dropping her off in the fucking.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
Nowheres middle of nowhere's.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
And uh, she's like, you know what happened when you
dropped me off at the apartment? And I mean if
this doesn't automatically say we're the worst. I don't know
what does? He goes, which one Westfield or Lafayette?

Speaker 3 (38:21):
Like does it matter?

Speaker 2 (38:23):
You took me to one when I was eight and
one on one I was nine? Yeah, she goes, We'll
start with Westfield, Like yeah, does it fucking yeah, let's
start with Westfield when I was eight. Let's let's start there.
And he says, hey, yeah, yes, his.

Speaker 3 (38:34):
Whole with him and his whole association thing.

Speaker 4 (38:38):
I think what's important not saying go back and rewatch everything,
you guys, but I'm saying the very first season because
I watched it back to back. It really were that
were There was so many things and I was like,
wait a minute. Particular like his he was videoing her
at that apartment pulling that trash can. That was him

(38:59):
videoing her trying to pull the trash can up the hill.
And he's standing outside videoing while she's doing it by himself.
There's no one else around, there's not his wife is
not there, his kid's not there, and he's just watching
her suffer.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
Do you remember when he grills her about the donuts,
He's like, yeah, where did you get these donuts? And
I mean demonizes her and she is a child.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
Yeah, I'm just saying.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
I can't go back to the first season.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
But I'm saying he was he was abusing him.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
He was absolutely abusive as well.

Speaker 4 (39:32):
And again he might have been abused and he also
victimized by Christine. But at some point in our lives,
we have to be the ones to break the cycle.
And that's what I would like to make sure and
point out that just because things happen to you, it
doesn't excuse what you do to other people right now
is a valid thing. And again, I've had a lot
of trauma on myself, Like I also have realized and

(39:53):
gone back to people and been like, WHOA, I was
really fucked up when I talked like that to you,
even though I was in an addiction at the time
or whatever. I just think there's still responsibility that needs
to be had. Yeah, and he is hiding behind that trauma,
and that's where we can't allow for that to be
a thing we do. I have your trauma, express your trauma,
deal with your trauma, or sit in your trauma, but
don't use it as an excuse for how you traumatize

(40:16):
someone else.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
That's all I don't personally relate to anything you're saying,
like at all. It's super weird, not no super aware.
So he says, you have to understand there was not
a lot of conversation. There was a lot of dictating.

(40:37):
And she asks if he knew about her getting an ID,
and he said that he did, and at that point
in time, your age had been legally altered by the state. You,
like anybody else, need to have an ID and fuck him,
fuck him fucking hard to our right here. Yeah, she says,
whose idea was it with the AID change? And he's

(41:00):
starts pointing around the room. Who I did? Tell all
you guys, we're not getting into that subject. Producers approach
Michael to try to calm him down. He says, you
know me, not a good idea. It's like, Michael, you're
a forty fifty something year old man. Maybe instead of
you having to tell people, you know me, I'm a

(41:21):
ticking time bomb. You don't want to set me off,
You like, take responsibility for that, my partner, my b
I don't know really what. Yeah, but like but but
also I hope that Michael is like a work in
progress because and.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
I hope he comes back and actually listens to her.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Yeah, so he stands up and says he needs to
get outside for a minutes. Just totally Michael's fucking em
o to not take responsibility and then to walk away.
And it's just like, dude, you don't just get to
like be like, I don't. I don't like that question
because I don't have a good answer. I don't have
a good answer for it that doesn't make me look

(42:04):
like a piece of bucking shit. Yeah, so, hello, producers,
did I not tell you there was like a no
go list? Okay, fucking diva piece of shit? Uh Okay.
Obviously Natalia is upset because Michael is running away again.
She says, quote, they didn't take they didn't care that

(42:25):
they left a little girl in an apartment at eight
years old, changed her old ape, changed her whole age
from eight to twenty two. Like, just admit it, girl,
I feel you. Beth Carass tells us that there were
ground rules set forth before this second meeting, and one
of them was that the reaging is off topic. But

(42:45):
like this is the most important.

Speaker 3 (42:48):
That's literally what fucking.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
I want to rip everybody's heads off.

Speaker 3 (42:54):
Just well, that is that needs to be answered. Literally
like you don't falls into place.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
It's really I was I was yelling.

Speaker 3 (43:03):
I think she was going to ask.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
You yelling at my television. Yeah, So he like sits
back down like a diva and tells Natalia that he
wants to stay away from things that might be too
emotionally touchy, like, uh, I'm sorry, there's not okay, then
there's no nothing to talk about here, right.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
Conversation is over.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
Yeah, so I took pretty detailed notes or Peggy did,
Thank you Peggy. I am going to try to summarize
it a little bit though, since we're coming towards the
hour mark. So Natalia, you know, has a lot of
other questions, and she asks why wasn't she just put

(43:50):
up for adoption again? And Michael says that during that
time he had a conversation with the monster about the
you know, the fact that like something's off and things
aren't going super well, and you know, maybe we don't
have to do anything and maybe we can just I

(44:11):
don't know, he's talking nonsense.

Speaker 3 (44:14):
It does a lot.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
He like sometimes it's like I can't even It's like
I just listened to him say that, and I don't
really know even what he means like why she asked
why he didn't put her up for adoption, and he
just babbles a bunch of nonsense about Christine being a
monster and the fact that like things weren't working, and yeah,

(44:38):
he tells the crew to make sure that they put
allegedly over what he's saying in flashing letters, which I
thought was funny because obviously they did not do that.
He's like, make sure you guys do this. Whoever's sitting
there editing is like, sorry, yeah, right, go fuck yourself, dude.

Speaker 3 (44:55):
How about Yeah, I will not be doing any of that.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
And I think they put it in there. I think
they left it in there to show like.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
You can do whatever the funcks we want.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
We're not going to do what you say. Yeah, I
just I thought that that was really good. He tells
Natalia that Christine saw adopting a child with special needs
as a societal thing. Quote evil sure does love her
some attention and some cameras and some eyes on her
and people worshiping her. He says that Christine once wrote

(45:26):
out why she qualified for sainthood based on the two
miracles she performed, and she also apparently regularly compared herself
to Oprah, which I don't. What are you and Oprah
have in common? Are you giving away cars? Are you
a black woman?

Speaker 4 (45:43):
Like I get a car, and I get a car
and in the opposite of Oprah, we got it now Okay.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
Natalia asks why she was taken out of school, and
Michael relays the fact that, like, oh, he was told
that Natalia was like ramming into other children with her
wheelchair on purpose, and like people at the school totally
are saying that this wasn't true. Yeah, like that Natalia

(46:14):
has been movie not yeah, And you know, Natalia Christine
had been saying, oh, I'm getting schools, I'm getting calls
from your school every day that you're just hurting other children.
And Natalia's teacher said that she never once did that.
It's a ten percent false and her behavior was quote

(46:34):
nothing but extraordinary, and that she was a fucking delight
same girl, same yeah. Michael says that Natalia stated that
she didn't like the other kids and wanted to hurt them,
and Natalia's like, yeah, I didn't know say that.

Speaker 3 (46:51):
She was excited about going to school. She was so
like yeah, I mean who wouldn't be.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
It's like, oh, you had to be around kids. Cool. No.
I hate that we hear from Terrence so.

Speaker 3 (47:03):
Much because he's goodbye, Terrence.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
Fucking bullshitter. He says that they took Natalia out of
school because she didn't belong there.

Speaker 3 (47:10):
Quote.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
We have to remember that when Natalia lived with the Chacones,
she was homeschooled. At every stop, there are all these
reports about her abhorrent behavior. Now she wants to play
the victim. Go fuck yourself, Terrence. She was eight. She
is the victim, and if she did have behavioral issues,

(47:32):
it's because she was born. She's her life has been.

Speaker 4 (47:39):
Yeah, she's allowed to be a piece of shit if
she wants to an eight year old after everything that's
happened to her.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
Like every shut the fuck up, you dick. Okay, I literally.

Speaker 4 (47:50):
Am headed to I Hate sometime recent pretty soon, and
I'm about to go find his loyal lawyer's office and
walk up and a get in the door and be like,
what's going on here?

Speaker 3 (47:59):
Bro?

Speaker 2 (48:00):
Can you eg get too?

Speaker 3 (48:01):
I'm gonna go find I'm gonna take a picture on
texting it to you.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
Brendan asked if they ever fixed her age legally, and
they next next episode, she has next sheepishowed. She does
say that that is a goal of hers, So I
don't know if it's actually officially been down.

Speaker 3 (48:18):
Yeah, sure about that.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
She wants to not be like a woman in her
mid thirties when she's actually a young lady in her
early twenties. Yeah. So the Man's who were Natalia's guardians
at the time of filming say that despite everything she's
been through, that Natalia is sweet, bright and beautiful, she
loves God, yay, and quote, there's nothing dangerous about Natalia

(48:45):
at all, you know what. I'm not even I'm like,
I have a section here an of some shit that
uh uh karens, Yeah, well this is kind of actually
important because it's like it's allegedly, but it is, it's
it's okay, So it's it's alleged that the Mans took
Natalia to Franciscan Psychiatric Hospital because she had harmed one

(49:09):
of their daughters and been disruptive and violent in the
house and they wanted her to leave there, and that
she wasn't back in their home, and Kinnard's like, see,
she's a bad, bad girl. And Cynthia Manns denies speaking
with hospital staff, saying that she wouldn't have even been

(49:30):
able to if she wanted to, because Natalia was legally
an adult. And she feels that Christine called the hospital
and made up the reports because she said those were
not my words.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
What I mean, Christine's crazy anyway, So.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
She is Couckubinan's birch. So we're back to the Michael
Natalia meeting. She asks if he remembers the first time
they met. He says yes. She asks if he remembers
meeting the Chacknes, her adoptive parents before the Barnett's, and
he's like, no, who, sorry who?

Speaker 3 (50:06):
I don't, Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
That doesn't I don't. That name doesn't ring a bell
at all. So he describes that, you know, they were
in different rooms during the adoption. She's like no, and
he gets all performative. But you know, me and the
boys we had our ears pressed against the wall trying
to listen to what was happening, and they were they
were looking through the people to see if they could
see anything. Why was there a people? Is this that

(50:29):
a hotel? What thet like? Shut up? And he said
that the boys had spent the night making shirts that
said we love you Natalia and welcome home sister. He
was like, they were so excited.

Speaker 3 (50:45):
She's like, yeah, how I remember it, pictures of them
and the shirts.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
Yeah, so it's so funny. It's like not even allegedly,
they were super excited and looking through peoples that tell
me this don't exist. So so Natalia is like, that's
not how I remember it. I remember sitting in a
chair across from where you were. This is direct quote.
But I also remember Diane and Gary coming into the room.

(51:12):
I never Michael is just like, Nope, never met him.
Just actually, okay, I it's so fucking hard when you
know victims are also perpetrators. It's really hard.

Speaker 3 (51:24):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
So he's like, yeah, didn't meet him. Just fucking gaslighting
ass motherfucker. They kept us totally separate. I didn't know
their names until like a month later.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
Which we know is not true.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
It's not it's not true.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
It's not true. They like, we know it.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
There was paperwork that they both signed him and the
other family, and so he's being a liar, and I
hate gas lighting liars.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
Yeah for me.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
No. Natalia asks Michael if he remembers putting locks on
her door, and he's like, yeah, I remember that, like
pretty uh yeah, because he's trying to he's answering some
questions super matter of factly to like show that he's
being super honest. You know. I think it's like, yeah, like,
look look at how open and honest I'm being. So

(52:13):
she's like it, yeah, do you remember that while you
were doing that, Christine was hitting me and hitting me
with a belt and letting the boys hit me and
letting Jacob pick me up and drop me. And he's like, no,
things relating to Jacob I didn't learn until two years
ago when he came back, and we then see him

(52:34):
in Natalia is like very emotional as he's relaying all this.
He says there's things he's not allowed to say on
camera or microphone, and we get a flashback to when
in the last season Jacob and Michael were might and
didn't realize it and they're talking about Jacob kicking Natalia

(52:57):
down the stairs.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
Yep, I remember that, and he's.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
Like, yeah, no, I'm not going to talk about that,
and they're like, oh, yeah, well, you know.

Speaker 3 (53:04):
You would have it on video.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
You're a minor, so you wouldn't get any repercussions. And
then they realize that they're miked and they're like, oh shit,
but that's that's how the cookie crumbles. What that shit right?

Speaker 3 (53:16):
It's karma, bitch.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
So you know, Natalia really recognizes she's not an idiot,
that Michael's making everything about himself and blaming everything on
Christine and she really just wants him to be accountable.
And he claims that when Christine had Nato Natalia's nose
against the wall when he got home, Christine screamed at him,
back your wife up, and he's very performing again, then

(53:41):
recounts how kay or how Christine was interrogating Natalia, which
she really liked to do, being like who who are you?
Who are you really? Where have you been? What have
you done? And uh, you know. Michael repeatedly says that
Christine used the kids as leverage against him all the time,
like if you don't go along with what I'm saying,

(54:01):
you're never gonna see your sons again, which was a
valid threat because he hasn't seen them in a decade.
According to him, it didn't go well. No, it's also
you just shouldn't scream I'll kill you, I'll kill you,
I'll kill you, I'll kill you. At anybody. It's just like,
I think that in your head. That's fine.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
Those are scream it into a pillow.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
You know, tell your therapist, but don't. Don't especially to
somebody who has a fucking propensity for recording shit. Come on, dude,
are you kidding me? I mean an idiot. Natalia also
recounts the time that Christine was mad, so she put
her in a pink dress and made her a cone
hat and made her hold an apple while she stood

(54:46):
in the front window like a gnome. Oh shit, are
you fucking kidding me?

Speaker 3 (54:51):
Like that's yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
And apparently none of the neighbors stopped or said anything.
What is wrong with this neighborhood?

Speaker 4 (55:00):
Of all sides? Fissed me off, every neighbor. I truly,
what are you doing?

Speaker 2 (55:04):
Indiana?

Speaker 3 (55:05):
Like, come on, don't even get me started.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
You're like, yeah, So Christine didn't respond to any requests
for comments about the allegations, of course not. Terrence Kinnard
says he understands that Natalia had a rough upbringing, but
she needs to be accountable for her own behavior because

(55:32):
you know, at the LaRue Carter Hospital there was a
central theme.

Speaker 3 (55:37):
And you know, yeah, the sexual.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
Sexual promscuity, and Michael says that while Natalia was at
the State Mental Hospital that he and Christine got phone
calls about Natalia propositioning men for sexual activity, and that's
why she had to leave. A nurse who I'm sure
got fucking paid or something, or is just like a
dumb bitch who was like, I want to hear my

(56:02):
voice on a TV show because we don't see her.

Speaker 3 (56:04):
And it wasn't even that great of a voice.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
She says, Yeah, fuck her. She said quote, she was
on a table and there were a bunch of male
patients there, and she was talking to them about needing
a boyfriend. So it's not the group of mentally ill
men who are surrounding a child on a table who's
misbehaving or acting in appropriately. Maybe they're not the problem.

(56:29):
It's the child. And hey, guys, news flash, if kids
are acting sexually, it's usually because they've been sexually abused.
Natalia actually says, quote, the truth is I feel like
I got exposed to sexual stuff at a really young age.
Fact sure, in fact, Christine tried to set me up

(56:50):
on a date at seven year old. At seven years
old with a grown man. Who knows what could have happened.

Speaker 3 (56:57):
Oh oh yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (57:00):
And we meet We had met this guy I think
in the previous season. Was it the previous season, Freddy Gill? Yeah,
so I came back, yeah, Freddie Gill is how did
she even meet him?

Speaker 3 (57:12):
She finds Freddie Gill's line.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
He's a little person, he's an entertainer, and like apparently
she was just like trying to pawn off Natalia onto him,
like do you want to date her? Do you wanna
do you want to adopt her? She's like no, Like
what the fuck, lady.

Speaker 3 (57:29):
I just want to get with you.

Speaker 4 (57:31):
That was literally his thing because he thought he was
getting one with her, and then he was like, wait,
you're trying.

Speaker 3 (57:35):
To give me your child.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
That's not whoa whoa, that is not my jam lady.

Speaker 3 (57:42):
We're sorry.

Speaker 4 (57:43):
The number you've reached us a disconnector is no longer
in service.

Speaker 2 (57:47):
Natalia says, if there's a possibility that I did say
sexual comments, I probably heard that from somebody because I
was really little, and maybe because I heard somebody else
say it, So I'm thinking it's okay to say it,
Like yeah, little kids don't just like come up with
this shit on their own, Okay.

Speaker 4 (58:03):
But also eight years old, they could say, oh, I
want a boyfriend, I want.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
Boy Yeah, maybe she's just looking for a friend or
an adult that she can chad.

Speaker 3 (58:15):
I don't know somebody to be her father figure.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
Oh my god, right yeah yeah, yeah, you think.

Speaker 3 (58:19):
I would have thought my dad. Right.

Speaker 2 (58:22):
So we go back to the meeting between Italian Michael.
Natalia tells Michael that she got exposed to sexual things
while at the Westfield apartment. Quote, Christine never taught me
how to take care of myself or anything about stranger
dangel about stranger danger, And Michael starts getting very emotional
and said, she told me she did. Okay. Well, also,

(58:43):
if you're supposed to be like her dad, isn't it
your job too? Mostly but like let's say whatever too,
it's both parents' job to like say hey, in the
very least two Who knows if Christine said, oh I
thought Christine told you? Yeah, because Christine's shown how much
she cares about Natalia, just like it takes some accountability.
Fuck yeah, okay, so flashback to when Christine what okay,

(59:08):
flashback to when Christine cut Natalia's hair shorter and put
makeup on her like fucking blue eyeshadow. It was insane,
and she asked, Michael, did you know that she was
trying to make me look like an adult? And Terence
is like, she can create drama out of the most
innocent or benign situation, such as a mother dressing up
her daughter. Catherine Barnett was doting over her only female child.

(59:34):
It's like, motherfucker, get your story straight. Like your client,
his story is that Catherine's evil. Now you're just saying
Natalia's a liar about everything. Yeah, not like, not just
about Michael, but but about every like I hate him.
I hate him. So Natalia asked Michael if he knew

(59:54):
that Christine was sending the photos of her with all
dulled up with makeup and stuff too. Guy Freddie Gill
trying to set her up on a date. And this
happened while she was still at the house apparently not
even in the not even in the even Yeah, thank goodness,
Freddie Gill is not a pedophile and said.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
No, so it's a slight amount of comfort.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
Yeah, yay, silver lighting. Michael says, I'm sorry that was
your experience. I'm sorry that they didn't have the wherewithal
to press the right charges in the right place. Oh yeah,
they not your fault again. It's they the you know,
the lawyers or whoever. Yeah, like they could still get
her right now if they wanted to. Who is this they?

Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
By the way, Michael, what sir?

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
So?

Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Natalia believes that Michael is an accomplice to the monster
because he went along with everything she said and quote
he still let me be alone with Christine and we
have we see flashbacks to interviews with Michael where he
says that Natalia has been diagnosed a sociopath and that
she's a grown up and a con artist and that

(01:01:08):
she was gonna kill everybody. So I don't know what
they're trying to do or they trying to confuse us,
like oh.

Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
That's what I'm saying. It kissed me. I hate them.

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
I hate them.

Speaker 3 (01:01:20):
But also it feels.

Speaker 4 (01:01:21):
Like Michael is just performing for the camera at both times.
It's like, oh, you want the negative here? Oh wait,
you want the positive here?

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Yo? And uh you guys, she's saying that not evens
As an example, in the last episode of the previous season,
Michael fucking says something dramatically and then he stops and
he goes, oh, did you want like a dramatic take
or a more serious take, and it was just like
he was like he was ready to switch it whichever

(01:01:48):
wind they want. They wanted him to go way to blow.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
That's fucked up.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Let's take this mother home.

Speaker 3 (01:01:58):
Now.

Speaker 4 (01:01:58):
You know how I felt the very first time we talked,
when I had all this information built up within me.
And now you can understand that I've had a lot
of self confusing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
You had so much.

Speaker 3 (01:02:07):
Honestly, my mom would be so proud of good.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
Good for you, because I I will like forget what
I watched yesterday, So I try to watch shit pretty
quickly quickly before I record, so that it's really fresh
in my mind.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
That's reasonable. Typically, I would you that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Is that maybe an excuse for procrastination? I don't know.
You tell me, why don't you guys fuck off? Because
damn it, less than four minutes.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
Shit, wait, we're not supposed to say bad words.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
Well I've heard it's like within the first four minutes.
And it's really not a big deal because like YouTube
is just it's it's just like another place to do
things like still what up? Cult? Lings The podcast is
and always will be my baby, and.

Speaker 3 (01:03:01):
Well Lingle.

Speaker 4 (01:03:06):
That's the first song Yacna shapment Ooh Darland because your
love Risbie, my.

Speaker 3 (01:03:13):
Baby be a part of me. Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
I don't think we sang in the last episode at all,
Like not a single bar o fail. Fuck, get it together,
actually get it together. We are finishing line. You guys,
let me know wherever you you know what? Do it
on Instagram, Let's be real, that's where I hang out
or Discord. You guys are Discord Soapoppin'. But if you

(01:03:38):
go to TSAF the podcast Discord dot com, I'm sorry
what you're a Discord user and you're not in my Discord.

Speaker 4 (01:03:45):
I haven't been on in a minute, but I used
to use it every week to play trivia.

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
With my friend.

Speaker 2 (01:03:50):
Also, do you know that my boyfriend developed a trivia game.
I didn't know you liked trivia.

Speaker 4 (01:03:55):
I am like a I told you I'm a nerd. Okay, okay,
all understand.

Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
A little nerds, right.

Speaker 4 (01:04:02):
I lived sheltered and then really got to know the
nineties culture by immersing myself into it later in life
and immediately went and just kicked everybody's butt in on
nineties trivia. And I was like, I didn't even get
to do any of this shit, and I kicked all
y'all g asses.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
Okay, I have to. I have to get you a
trivia game because now you guys, it's called Hexequest. It's
the best trivia game around. It's a strategic trivia game
and it's a tabletop game. And you make the board
yourself with Diesel hexagons and they either have a category

(01:04:40):
or a point value on each side, and so you
kind of like just lay them out all messy and
then you put it together so that they fit together
like a puzzle.

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
And then my family would love that, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Okay, and then we also so it comes with six categories,
but we also have eight expansion packs out already, so
there's fourteen categories available right now, and you know so
many more to come pretty soon.

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
Let's make a cold one. I'll help you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
Oh that's fuck girls on the agenda, not out, not
out super on the agenda.

Speaker 3 (01:05:11):
Though, that's right in my cold era.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
Okay, So let's go. We are we're on the clock.
I don't know why, but we just we are.

Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
So we got this.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
We picked this episode up where episode five left off,
and you know, Natalia and Michael had been kind of talking,
and then Natalia tells Michael that admitting the lies that
he has said is like a whole other story than

(01:05:41):
what he's been doing. That just kind of deflecting, And
we flashed to December ninth, twenty twenty two, two months
after Michael's acquittal, and he says that he didn't do
anything wrong and a jury has affirmed that, and he's
not ashamed. And the producers hand him a laptop and

(01:06:02):
tell him that there's a very serious accusation about him
and that they feel obligated to show him.

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
I forgot about that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
He says, he is not listening to it, but he
will hit play. He holds the laptop to the cameras
and says that it truly doesn't affect him what Christine
tells random people in the public about him. You guys,
hot tip, if anybody's like, I could give a fuck
or I don't care anything along those lines, they care

(01:06:31):
so much about that and give so many fucks so
about that, I don't know from experience. Yeah, so he
totally it really doesn't even affect him at all, you guys. Okay,
So just yeah, don't be silly. So the laptop shows

(01:06:52):
Freddie Gill speaking and if you were not listening to
the last episode, it's good to do it in order.
But Freddie Gill was an entertainer and he's also a
little person. And Christine was like, it's up, like.

Speaker 3 (01:07:12):
And you guys see.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
Listen, I'm not. It's not like she's like disgusting. She's fine,
Like she's fine looking, but that's it. She's okay, she's average,
like she this whole like I'm the sexiest bitch thing.
Like I don't know where she's getting that complex from.

Speaker 3 (01:07:32):
But it's not dys morphia in a different.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
Way, like opposite. Yeah, it's like it's a very interesting one. Tom, No,
you're not Christine Yah basic. So that's her name, right, Christine.

Speaker 4 (01:07:47):
Yeah, he said Catherine one time, a long time ago. Okay,
I didn't correct you because you said it right.

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
The next time. I was like, she just had a moment.

Speaker 4 (01:07:53):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
It's funny because somebody in the chat said Christine and
I was like, I wonder if I said that wrong.

Speaker 3 (01:07:58):
Yeah, that's what I'm moving wrong.

Speaker 4 (01:08:00):
And I was like, yeah, I didn't even acknowledge it
because I was like, if she says to Catherine again,
then I will But yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
I mean, how many times did I say Christine in
that episode? You know and over you guys know you
know who it is.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
Yeah, it ain't serious, not perfect. Thank you, damn it
a thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
For validating that by saying that it's it's okay.

Speaker 3 (01:08:19):
That's why I did not correct. I'm just saying because you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
Know, also, how we know that this documentary is hut garbage?

Speaker 4 (01:08:27):
Is?

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
I think that it's super typical practice in a documentary
that's being made really ethically, that they constant pete, that
they constantly reveal things to people all for first time
on camera to get the reaction. It's like, oh, hey,

(01:08:49):
let's just here, let's just mike you up really quick,
let's just yeah, yeah, roll you guys. Hey, So did
you know that she said that, Yeah, fucked Natalia? Because
the video shows Freddie Gil saying that Christine told He
says Christine told me in a series of messages that

(01:09:10):
Natalia ruined her life in so many ways and basically
said that Natalia had started having sex with Michael and so.

Speaker 4 (01:09:23):
What yeah, hold on, I think nat immediately said no.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
No, yeah, she she watches the footage and she's like,
what are you crazy? No, like, what the fuck?

Speaker 4 (01:09:39):
And I feel like that's something she would have said, like, yep,
that happened in the way that she doesn't.

Speaker 2 (01:09:44):
Make Michael look that may would make Michael look terrible.

Speaker 3 (01:09:49):
Really bad. Yeah, real bad.

Speaker 4 (01:09:51):
But I also feel that she's personally brainwashed a little
bit by her new family.

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
Girl, hold hold the phone. We are. I can't get
into that right now because I'll go this way when
we need to. We need to stay on the street.

Speaker 3 (01:10:08):
You can invite me on and make me straight. Is
that what your goal was?

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
I just like, Okay, listen, listen, I have a question
to ask you. Okay, this fucking little hoe on TikTok.
I hate that place. I hate it there. So some girl,
she's in her twenties, What the fuck does she know? Hey,
all of my twenties listeners all are amazing. You listen
to a show that's you.

Speaker 3 (01:10:32):
Know, you're educating yourself. We love you for it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
Yeah, and you're oh, if you're listening to this show, like,
you're open minded and you care about things that are important.
So this girl is like hot take. I've changed my
mind about Gypsy Rose Blanchard in the last twenty four
hours because before I was like, Eh, I really feel

(01:10:58):
sorry for this girl's story. But now I'm like, so
what at some point you didn't just stand up and
tell the doctors that your legs work, And I'm sorry
you had a laptop and were commuting with communicating with
the outside world, and you didn't think to tell anybody, Hey,

(01:11:19):
this is what my mom's gonna say, but this is
the truth. And I'm like, bitch, where are you? Because
I can't slap you fucking face because then, and luckily,
there's a lot of people who aren't garbage that are like,
this girl's talking shit and she's obviously an idiots a
child she is, and she's just like so doesn't know

(01:11:42):
what the fuck she's talking about at all, obviously, like
understands nothing about factitious disupport dishes fresh dishes is just
factitious disorder imposed on another, which is also sometimes I
just learned, referred to as medical child abuse, although most
people but it's sometimes done to the elderly as well,

(01:12:04):
although usually a parent onto a child, but medical abuse,
and it used to be called Munchausen syndrome by proxy
for anybody's like, I don't what are any of those terms,
but anyways, yeah, she doesn't know what the fuck she's
talking about. She's talking out of her ass. And then
you know, there's so many people online that are just
like waiting to see people fail and like yeah, like

(01:12:25):
thanks for saying what I was finally thinking. And then okay,
so there's a point besides Gypsy, I'm getting to it.

Speaker 3 (01:12:33):
You had a question for me.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
It's coming, It's coming. So I was already like, this
bitch is garbage. And then she did a video and
she was like, what's up you guys? Happy New Year's Eve.
Remember it's New Year's Eve, not New Year Steve like,
kiss kiss a girl because being a lesbian is cooler.
And I commented on her video and I said, I'm sorry,

(01:12:58):
when did sexual become a choice? Because you, you little bitch,
are talking as if you know about anything in the world.
And I know that if somebody said to her, oh,
so you chose to be a lesbian, that like little
fucking info Nazi troll would be like, how dare you?

(01:13:19):
That's not a choice. But she thought it would be
all cute to go on TikTok and say kiss a
girl for New Year's Eve because being a lesbian's cooler.
Are you as mad as me? That like really pissed
me just.

Speaker 3 (01:13:32):
Well, I think a. I think she was trying to
be cute, I know, but she stupid truly believes that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
No. I know, but that's a stupid editor.

Speaker 3 (01:13:39):
It is stupid. It's not cute.

Speaker 4 (01:13:40):
But it also makes sexuality look trivial. And I'm not
a fan because like, our sexuality is a part of
our being, Like, it's not really something that like this
is the reason why people have such a problem with
sexuality is because people make jokes like that and people
take it as literal and then they're like, see, they're
infiltrating everything, and then we have to deal with that ship. Yeah,

(01:14:03):
so it's just like leave it alone. You're very and
it's not a good joke.

Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
It's not a good joe little girl. You're very immature
and don't know shit, and you are trying to talk
about how things and people are problematic. You're the fucking problem.
Shut it.

Speaker 3 (01:14:21):
Hello, Okay, yes, nice TikTok rant.

Speaker 2 (01:14:24):
Sorry because you're a lesbian too, am I. So I
just wanted to get like, what's your take on it?

Speaker 3 (01:14:32):
You know, like that because I.

Speaker 4 (01:14:34):
Walked woke up one day I was like, you know,
it would be fine just being a lesbian, you know,
you out from the eighties liars, Eve.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
Not New Year's Steve. I'm just going to give it
a go. Hey, what loved it? Who knew?

Speaker 3 (01:14:46):
Yeah? I kissed the girl and I liked it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
What's up, Katy Perry? Yeah, so I just like, yeah,
that's anyways. I don't go on tik talk. I don't
like it, So that's a me thing. Let's get back
to Noatalia.

Speaker 3 (01:15:01):
Are there people still on here?

Speaker 2 (01:15:02):
Because there's ten people, ten beautiful people faithfully watching Renee
Rev Girl, Peggy p Britt, not my Michael. You guys,
thanks for being here. Everybody on the podcast who's like, whoa,
it is not generally this crazy, Well, you guys can

(01:15:23):
thank your friendly local editors that they generally take out
my awkward pauses and you know, you get the Shenanigan's
more manageable. But what's up? This is this is real time,
real talk, raw doggin with Ash and Shan Tay. That

(01:15:44):
should be the same as we do that we should.

Speaker 3 (01:15:47):
Like it'd be interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:15:48):
Really, Let's talk later. I'm into it, but right now, listen, Okay,
back to this. Christine is like Freddie, my newly adopted
daughter is actually a grown ass lady.

Speaker 3 (01:16:02):
Do you want to you like what you see here?
You like that? Literally nuts? And he was like what
the dude?

Speaker 2 (01:16:09):
Yeah, so apparently Christine also went on to say that
Natalia had tried to have sex with one of the
neighbor's husbands, and Natalia's just watching this like what in
the fuck? Like are you kidding me? She said, this
is all a total lie. And Michael says that that's

(01:16:33):
absolutely not true, that he had never touched Natalia in
appropriate way, in an inappropriate way, and yeah, think fuck
never had any kind of sexual relationship with her. And
he said that Christine will make up any lie. And
because Natalia does talk about sexual abuse that she endured

(01:16:54):
at a younger age, I do believe that she would
be truthful about that. So I think, yeah, absolutely, I.

Speaker 4 (01:17:01):
Really do some total bullshit talked about a lot of
shit that happened to her.

Speaker 3 (01:17:04):
I feel like she would be like, yeah, I also
calling people out.

Speaker 2 (01:17:09):
Yeah, yeah, she wouldn't hide the Carass believes Oh we did,
we did we say who Carass is yet in this episode?

Speaker 3 (01:17:17):
No, I don't think so, Kara Carass.

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):
That's not it. What's her name, the legal expert.

Speaker 3 (01:17:24):
It's not Kara Carass.

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
I know, I know, command f fine.

Speaker 3 (01:17:30):
Bes Beth. Peggy said, it's Beth.

Speaker 2 (01:17:32):
You're making that up, Peggy said, Beth Corress best grass.
All right, good job you guys, good job, thank you. Check.
Oh what's up? And Robin and alexis a here? Hay
gang okay, okay, back we go, back we go. So okay,
now I'm looking at episode four notes six. Beth Carass,
legal expert who has been analyzing the case throughout the

(01:17:55):
docu series, believes that Michael wants some resolution, but he
also wants wants her to believe and understand that he
was victimized too.

Speaker 4 (01:18:05):
Wow, and again you don't we do believe in men
being abused.

Speaker 2 (01:18:11):
Yeah, I think he was. But that doesn't excuse he's
trying to say I victimized you because I was also
a victim.

Speaker 4 (01:18:20):
And that's not excepted, that's not it's immediately. That's because
when with a cycle end, if we do that, it
will never.

Speaker 2 (01:18:26):
For us and Randy Jackson all three, it's a no
for us. Dog across the board. Okay, so all the way. Yeah,
So Natalia obviously just wants answers and justice and some
fucking validation, and I was like, heavy fucking eyroll, are
you kidding me? So Beth Crass at this point says

(01:18:49):
maybe they both need to come clean because maybe everybody
is hiding something, and I just write, you, bess, Yeah,
shut the fuck up. I just wrote something about you, bitch. Yeah,
I wrote, oh God, garbage time because I was like, oh, really, okay,
So now we're now we're trying to bring back in
the Suspicion episode six, end of the season. Yeah, let's

(01:19:12):
bring in a little bit of everybody else suspicion just
because fuck her and her tram.

Speaker 3 (01:19:18):
She was doing well, like sticking up for her throughout
that whole time.

Speaker 2 (01:19:22):
For the most part, I just think they said you
should say this, and she said, oh so that.

Speaker 4 (01:19:26):
Everybody plus like for Italia, So let's make it make
a people question.

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
People don't generally get paid for documentaries, but I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:19:37):
Know when you don't think that Spotlight is paid enough,
Like even I know a lot of people that would
be like, oh, we don't okay with not getting pay
as long as we get on this where people see us.

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
Yeah, it's just so weird to me because like, I
don't want people actively hating me and like actively letting
me in the rest of the world know, like for me,
it's not like, oh, attention is good attention. I think
though the people who generally think that are kind of
psychosink a little bit, you know. Okay. Michael hopes that

(01:20:11):
him showing up and talking to Natalia should let her
know that he harbors no ill will. I'm sorry towards
the child that you abused.

Speaker 3 (01:20:23):
Abused.

Speaker 2 (01:20:25):
No, that's okay.

Speaker 3 (01:20:26):
Thanks for sharing cool gold Stars.

Speaker 2 (01:20:29):
I'm like, just all I can say is like motherfucker
that says like that's most of my vocabulary. For the episode,
Natalia asked Michael if she knew that Christine Pepper sprayed her,
and he says, I did, but I just learned about
it a year ago, which is Shenanigan's yeah, god garbage.

(01:20:51):
That is a lie, because Natalia asks, because he yeah,
it shows in our old video like hey, hey, bitch,
got you h are not allowed to watch the first
season before he taped this, like, because I feel like
I would have brushed up on what I what I said.

(01:21:14):
I'd try to keep my story like a little bit straight.
If I was I it's you know. Also, I'm not
going to say that Michael's the brightest bulb in the box.
So let's there.

Speaker 3 (01:21:28):
Give you that idea, girl, what gave you that idea?

Speaker 2 (01:21:31):
Asked?

Speaker 6 (01:21:31):
His entire way of being No, I know him period,
just him as it was a sports cars and you know, yeah,
the sports car, the blaring music and the music and
the backwards cap while screaming I'm a victim, just was
kind of like a little bit, Listen, you can't be
a victim and.

Speaker 2 (01:21:50):
Like not wear sports hats and cars, sports hats and cars. Listen,
you can do whatever you want. It's just the attitude
is a little It's still the way you do it.
It's the way you do it. Yeah, so he says
I only knew what happened once. Sinetai is like, guess what, bitch,

(01:22:10):
it happened twice, and the first time it was literally
just to show me what it would be like when
it happened again.

Speaker 3 (01:22:19):
I still can't get over that. I can't.

Speaker 2 (01:22:21):
This woman is like there's something very very wrong with her.

Speaker 3 (01:22:25):
Yeah, nobody does that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:27):
I think I think she's a psychopath.

Speaker 3 (01:22:29):
Yeah, I'm pretty sure she is.

Speaker 2 (01:22:31):
I'm not a doctor. Hot well, everybody's everybody's like.

Speaker 3 (01:22:36):
What what I have to leave?

Speaker 2 (01:22:37):
I'm sorry listening to you this time. I'm thinking that
you have medical degrees and psychological licenses. No, you guys,
I'm just passionate and trauma. I've done a lot of therapy,
so much therapy. Yeah, I have a loss. I have listened.

Speaker 3 (01:22:53):
Uh not a brag, but.

Speaker 2 (01:22:56):
Not to brag, but I graduated from School of Hard Knocks.
Because even say that with a straight face. Oh my god.
Steve Cartizano, who created Challenger, which was the first of
many of his wilderness therapy cams for troubled teens where
he tortured and murdered children, not like personally, but his program.
You know, somebody asked him an interview, so what qualifies

(01:23:20):
you to uh therapize these children in the desert, And
he goes, well, oh, no, you know, graduate of the
School of Hard Knocks. Literally, this mother bunker said that.

Speaker 7 (01:23:29):
And I was like, oh, yeah, kidding me, sir, listen,
so am I you guys, just FYI I learned on
the streets, That's right, I mean I did.

Speaker 2 (01:23:41):
That's not totally earlier, like some shit went down, some
shit went down, it's on the streets. No, for real, listen,
we're not gonna that is a different episode. That's Shanta
and ash get raw when we talk about some of
the shit that happened on the streets back into it
the day.

Speaker 3 (01:24:00):
Oh girl, we okay, I.

Speaker 2 (01:24:04):
Really want to learn to wisit?

Speaker 3 (01:24:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:24:06):
I feel like it's something I wish I could do.

Speaker 3 (01:24:09):
So you didn't learn that on the streets.

Speaker 2 (01:24:12):
That's one lesson I missed on the streets. And when
I say the streets, I mean Sasame Street. You're just kidding,
uh am, I avoiding heavy spe Maybe okay, let's go.
So Michael says it's too hard. It's too bad. No
one got to show Christine what it was going to

(01:24:35):
be like like oh to then she couldn't get a
taste of her own medicine. And it's you know, somebody
should tell you what it's gonna be. Look like Chante,
you're like, I think over funnying me on my show.

Speaker 3 (01:24:51):
We keep getting to.

Speaker 2 (01:24:53):
Keep getting comments about how delightful and funny you are.
So going to need you to like take it down
a not okay, just like keep your comments.

Speaker 3 (01:25:03):
I ran a webinar all day to day.

Speaker 5 (01:25:05):
Rude.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
Oh that sounds fun. What was it about math and engineering?
I feel so mean, we have to be all sarcastic.

Speaker 3 (01:25:14):
Hey for her knowledge.

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):
No, you're awesome. One person just left. They're like, I'm
not gonna watch this dumb ass roast this academic queen.
We lost one right there.

Speaker 3 (01:25:27):
I'm so sorry. Okay, this Isalia.

Speaker 2 (01:25:29):
This is the real This is the real deal. This
is raw, raw, and unplugged, all of it.

Speaker 3 (01:25:34):
So everybody's unplugged. I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2 (01:25:39):
We're all unplugged here, Okay, we're all mad here. Natalia
tells Michael about the second time that Christine did it,
because Natalia did the awful thing with her, you know,
physical limitations and was like walking slow like an asshole,
and she's like just a little audacity, full of audacity.

(01:26:02):
So she she pepper sprayed her for that, and Michael
starts crying.

Speaker 3 (01:26:11):
It was it wasn't empathetic.

Speaker 2 (01:26:18):
I mean, it tells Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:26:20):
I have some intellect, but I am not a doctor.
I'm just saying there were signs to me that it
was like, oh, like performative. Yeah, like, oh my god,
I feel really bad. I feel like it's a very
distinct difference between those two things.

Speaker 2 (01:26:35):
I feel like I'm not good at not being manipulated
by people who are good actors. Well, I shouldn't say
that to the public.

Speaker 3 (01:26:44):
Well, I was in a cult, so I feel like
I kind of can read.

Speaker 2 (01:26:47):
Things like, actually, that's funny because I have a really
good business opportunity that I think you'd be interested.

Speaker 3 (01:26:53):
When's the last time you moisturized?

Speaker 2 (01:26:57):
What are you saying that my skin doesn't look dewey?
No it doesn't.

Speaker 4 (01:27:01):
And oh, anyways, I was saying that. He there were
some things like yeah, there's some vibes on him that
were like, feels like you're trying to get the attention,
not trying to empathize with her. And I feel like
the difference is usually when you're empathizing with someone, you're trying.

Speaker 3 (01:27:21):
Not to make it about you.

Speaker 4 (01:27:22):
So like the way that you cry this is so
silly sounding, but like the way that you cry, you're
like actually trying to hold it back and like contain
yourself for the sake of the persons sharing, Whereas he
felt like, in my opinion, he felt like just letting
it all out and just crying, where everybody was now
turned to him and being like, oh, look at him crying.

Speaker 3 (01:27:41):
It feels so bad, like and it should have been focused.

Speaker 4 (01:27:44):
On her and expressing herself. And if you're really empathizing
with someone, you're wanting them to share their stuff, their story.
You're willing that to happen in order to help support.

Speaker 2 (01:27:53):
I feel like I got ed kempered all over, like
he tricked me. I watched his interviews and I was like,
I don't know, you, guys, I don't seems.

Speaker 3 (01:28:00):
Like a nice guy, Like I mean trauma.

Speaker 2 (01:28:04):
He murdered a bunch of ladies real violently, and then
his mom's throat after he cut her head off. But
you know that's a that's it. That's a different story.

Speaker 3 (01:28:15):
But I don't know. I'm not trying to say that,
but I but that was my read.

Speaker 2 (01:28:18):
Yeah, And I'm working on like being less harsh and
being less naive. It's a weird, like make sure to
try to work on it at the same time, Like, his.

Speaker 4 (01:28:28):
Trauma's real and he definitely there's no way he's not
having trauma responses, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:28:32):
And I think a really good, implighted thing to acknowledge
right now is that opposing feelings and thoughts and shit
can be true at the same time, he can be
having a trauma response and be a deeply wounded person
who's also being a manipulative ass motherfucker. Because actually personalities
such as personality disorders such as narcissism or sociopathy, unfortunately,

(01:29:00):
there's usually a product of trauma which makes it sad
because something happened to these people usually to make them
like that, and then because of the nature of the
personality disorder, they generally can't recognize or change the fact
that they have that thing. But so it's like, it's
hard when when to feel it's just it's so hard.

(01:29:21):
It's so hard because no, there's not obviously balance, there
is trauma there there. He was victimized. I'm sure far
before he met Christine. We both with our armchair opinions,
thought that he just seems like a wounded person. But yeah,
you know, he's definitely very good at being like, oh

(01:29:43):
woe is me, which which we will see later too
with Natalia's reaction to something. And so I'm gonna keep
going and then we'll get to that. Okay, Okay, so
we Italian wants to know the things that Christine made
up about her, and Michael says that Natalia is going

(01:30:04):
to kill everyone, and like you see him in an
interview saying like, or we saw it in the last yeah,
right when the last episode ended, him saying, oh, she
said that she was gonna kill everyone. So it's like, okay,
so you're saying, that's a lie that Christine made up
about Natalia that you passed on as fact a couple

(01:30:26):
of years ago.

Speaker 3 (01:30:28):
Okay, yeah, I yeah, Mmm.

Speaker 2 (01:30:30):
Here's that whole empathy thing that you were talking about.
If you want to empathize with somebody, you want to
allow them space to tell their story. Michael shuts it down.
He doesn't want to go down that road.

Speaker 3 (01:30:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:41):
I just thought, no, I just thought that's a rocky road.
And then I immediately was like, I want some fucking
ice cream, and I was thinking about crackers and super earlier.
I'm hungry, and.

Speaker 3 (01:30:52):
Oh my gosh, rocky road sounds so good. Marshmall get Diane.
Oh no, I just we're going down a whole path.

Speaker 4 (01:31:01):
I literally was like, oh my god, my friend made
me marshmallow syrup put in my coffee and I left
it at work.

Speaker 2 (01:31:06):
Ah okay, but that sounds amazing. Okay, but let's we
gotta go back to this. So Natalia says that Christine
told her to tell people that she wanted to hurt
her family, poison Christine, and that she was hiding knives. Obviously,
like we've heard that definitely got cash. Yeah, yeah, that
Christine absolutely coached Natalia into saying certain things such as those.

(01:31:31):
So Natalia's like, I want to know the knife story,
Like I there's confusion there, And Michael says that he
would come home from work and Christine would tell him
that she found knives under Natalia's bed, and Michael says
there was one time that he did find a knife
under her bed, and he brought up the incident where
she was supposedly holding a knife at the end of

(01:31:54):
their bed. Natalia says she was never in their room
with a knife, that she couldn't even look oh for
their bed or climate if he wanted, if she wanted to.
She's like, I have physical limitations, bro.

Speaker 4 (01:32:08):
He's like, my thing is, I wouldn't put it past
Christine to have one of her boys do that and
like tell them they can't say And he think it's
her because like, what do you what are the odds
that she doesn't have some type of thing to make
it look like it's Natalia has her son tricked into
making it seem Listen, all I'm saying is I wouldn't put.

Speaker 3 (01:32:28):
It past him.

Speaker 2 (01:32:28):
No, she's diabolical.

Speaker 4 (01:32:30):
Yeah, and he's just and like wants him to believe
these things about her so that he's on her side.

Speaker 3 (01:32:36):
So he's like, she's doing anything she can to make him.

Speaker 2 (01:32:38):
Yeah, because he's adamant that. I don't know he saw
her there and he's like, no, I remember you were,
And he doesn't seem the room with a knife.

Speaker 4 (01:32:46):
Yeah, and he doesn't seem to stray from that at all,
like he straight from a lot of things he said, Yeah,
but I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:32:53):
He's always he has always stuck to that. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:32:56):
Yeah, anyway, that's my Oh I Alexis.

Speaker 2 (01:33:00):
And Peggy, Yes, you gotta you gott a fan a
fan crew going on here. We gotta get raw more often. Okay,
I know it.

Speaker 3 (01:33:10):
Let's get often.

Speaker 2 (01:33:13):
Well. Oh and Alexis is here and she helped me
with these notes, y'all. It's yes, Alexis like literally shout
out to my researchers and editors. They are.

Speaker 3 (01:33:29):
I know, they're like, oh, she's not sticking with the notes.
Get back to the note. She did that all in
one time for a reason. Read all of it.

Speaker 2 (01:33:38):
Yeah, that was I hope, I hope I'm making you
guys proud.

Speaker 3 (01:33:43):
Okay, I was totally kidding.

Speaker 2 (01:33:46):
I am that I am.

Speaker 3 (01:33:47):
Get back to your confident self.

Speaker 2 (01:33:51):
Speaking of Alexis, it says MGB here, which confused me
instead of NGB Natalia Grace Barnett.

Speaker 4 (01:34:01):
Wow, I'm sure she was talking about getting together dark Oyle.

Speaker 2 (01:34:05):
No, she was. She she's talking about Natalia. I'm totally kidding.
By the way, you got to make him till herly
getting Alexis.

Speaker 5 (01:34:14):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:34:15):
But when I saw it, I just saw MGB and
because I'm tired, and then it says KB a little
bit over, I in my mind saw MGK and she's
like machine gun Kelly.

Speaker 3 (01:34:26):
I'm gonna say the KGB. Okay, No, did.

Speaker 2 (01:34:30):
You know that him? Okay, I know, Okay. Seriously, my
therapist would say, this is an avoidant tactic because like,
I just don't want to talk about this anymore, because
it's just a bummer a lot. When Ashley we got this,
everybody's here, Chante is here, We're having a good time.
Natalia is not having a good time machine gun. Kelly's

(01:34:51):
not here. He's not a part of this at all.
Neither is Megan Fox and Okay Levey. Just I gotta
work it out and just keep going. So Natalia was like, motherfucker.
I was never alone. Christine was always around. How would
I have got to a knife? Like I would have

(01:35:13):
had to drag a chair or stool or something over
to stand on to reach a knife. And you guys
would have heard that, Like I was like, you know,
get it together. Sorry, yeah, no, yea, I know, Like
if they're so afraid of her murdering them, why don't
they put the knives in like the top cupboard where

(01:35:36):
she like definitely couldn't reach or.

Speaker 3 (01:35:39):
I care with you?

Speaker 4 (01:35:40):
Like yeah, I mean they could have been like real
like yeah again again, if she actually had the ability
to hold a knife, you don't think she would have
made at least wanted to get the fuck out of
here with you.

Speaker 2 (01:35:51):
Yeah, she's like she literally holds a knife and she's
like I can I can do this?

Speaker 4 (01:35:56):
Bit Yeah, like you wouldn't want to do that, Like, oh, goodbye, Chris,
and I will I will neither confirm or deny what
I think.

Speaker 2 (01:36:06):
Any who.

Speaker 3 (01:36:08):
Allegedly allegedly.

Speaker 2 (01:36:13):
You know, so we hear from Beth Carass again. Who Now,
I'm just you know, it's like, listen, lady, you are
you are just like trying to make things sound spicy
at the cost of a victim, which I'm not a
fan of.

Speaker 3 (01:36:31):
Goodbye.

Speaker 2 (01:36:31):
She's like, I don't know what the truth is. You know,
I'm looking at Natalia's body language and you can tell
she's not happy, and wow, I think a lie. Yeah,
And she says, you know, Michael sounds truthful, incredible, and uh.

Speaker 3 (01:36:50):
You sound like a bit sound stupid. Not get to us,
go away.

Speaker 2 (01:36:56):
Yeah, I just I don't I don't know if that
was actually her opinion in but like even if you're
going to say what the producers want, yeah, like you can't.
People can't. Nobody like had a gun to your head, lady,
so that you're not AnyWho. We see September sixteenth, twenty fourteen,
a an interview that Natalia is having with the FBI

(01:37:19):
child crimes specialist.

Speaker 8 (01:37:21):
Oh yeah, we see and it's like ooh bomb but really,
like okay, so we see a younger Natalia sitting in
a room with an that wasn't.

Speaker 5 (01:37:34):
That wasn't directed you were my people to help me.

Speaker 2 (01:37:39):
No, no, they're all on your side, trust me. I'm
I'm the resident bitch.

Speaker 3 (01:37:44):
I am.

Speaker 2 (01:37:45):
No, I wasn't. I was like making fun of the
documentary makers. I was making fun of the not you.
I love you, I love you. I sorry are there?

Speaker 3 (01:37:56):
She tried to do something and it didn't work.

Speaker 2 (01:37:59):
It's I just came off so mean.

Speaker 3 (01:38:02):
I'm not going to say, are you like that? You guys?

Speaker 2 (01:38:05):
But sometimes I am.

Speaker 3 (01:38:06):
But I wasn't right back at you. I just didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:38:10):
But you were just like whoa shock? I thought you
were nice. Also, Peggy piece as what is a legal expert? Anyways?
And I have the same question like are you a lawyer?
Like what? What? What the fuck? Because I'm a legal expert.
I'm a I'm a true crime podcaster. I have talked
about the law and looked into it, you know, for things.

Speaker 3 (01:38:30):
So I've read a book.

Speaker 2 (01:38:31):
Am I also an expert? Like what qualifies?

Speaker 3 (01:38:34):
Right? Red book?

Speaker 2 (01:38:36):
I've read a few books like Get the fuck out
of Here? So we see a younger in Italio.

Speaker 4 (01:38:41):
What so they were saying that it's a lawyer, but
it's not anyone's lawyer. So they say lawyer expert, meaning
like she is a lawyer, but she's nobody's.

Speaker 3 (01:38:50):
On the she's not a lawyer. And thank you, Alexis.
That's imperative that we answer that question. All right.

Speaker 2 (01:38:57):
Oh wait, Alexis said, I'm not sure I should have
looked more into what it means. No, I mean I
didn't either, and I, you know, read these notes right
along as they were while I was watching, and I
didn't add anything. So girls, you know what, Peggy no,
no midstream pop quizzes. I thought we established that with Shane.

(01:39:19):
I'm so tired Shante.

Speaker 3 (01:39:21):
I was like, who's Shane?

Speaker 2 (01:39:23):
Who is You're looking around like what?

Speaker 3 (01:39:26):
Who? Was like? This is there sounds here?

Speaker 2 (01:39:29):
I'm going on vacation tomorrow and I'm really excited because
I think that I need it because you're talking to
me right now, and I feel like you understand why
you're like girl, yeah, yeah, okay. So I don't like this.
I don't like I don't like this part. Natalia is
obviously like a young child. This is in twenty fourteen,

(01:39:51):
so she's twelve. Maybe there's god, it's so ish. She's
very young. She says to the interviewer that I think
that a while after I was fully adopted, I lashed out.
She does say that she started with the hiding knives,

(01:40:11):
and the interviewer asks her what was happening with the knives,
and she says that she had one underneath the fridge
and some other places she forgot. The specialists asks if
anyone had ever told her how long she was in
the orphanage for, and she says no, but there. But
I was there for a winter and a summer. So

(01:40:34):
I'm going to pause and give my legal expertise or
my psychological expertise, my trauma expertise. Let's say that I
am going to say that either Natalia was hiding knives
and doesn't want to admit it now because it doesn't
look good, or because she doesn't remember, because hey, you

(01:40:57):
guys are really crazy. Thing about trauma is that your
mind like blocks a lot of it out so that
you can function as a human.

Speaker 3 (01:41:05):
Weird at times.

Speaker 2 (01:41:06):
Yeah, it's it's super good.

Speaker 3 (01:41:09):
That Yeah, Hey hold up, I did not ask for you.

Speaker 2 (01:41:14):
Yeah. Yeah, therapy is so good, so yes good. Or
the other option is, as we're going to get into,
she's never felt safe. She especially obviously did not feel
safe in this house. So maybe she was.

Speaker 4 (01:41:30):
Because she's scared, because she's getting the ship of her
and she's scared it's going to continue to happen and
she wants to protect yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:41:37):
Or ready for this theory, Ready for this.

Speaker 3 (01:41:39):
I'm so ready.

Speaker 2 (01:41:41):
Christine told her to say that.

Speaker 4 (01:41:42):
Or Christine hid the knives and then had Michael find
them and then it was oh, we found knives.

Speaker 2 (01:41:47):
Holy shit, man, this just became a game of clue.
You guys, get out of your pens and pads. It's
Pepe Silva time. Get your yarn, get your whiteboards. It's
going down. It's happening. Yeah, I mean, there's so many
who knows, right.

Speaker 4 (01:42:03):
I would like to have a disclaimer that anything that
I have said that I've said like, that's my opinion.
I literally mean that there's no proof, noly legal research.
I'm not a legal expert.

Speaker 2 (01:42:12):
Me too. Should I just chime in and remind people? Yes, yeah,
that's also true for ditto everything she said.

Speaker 3 (01:42:18):
Me too, because I've been saying a lot of stuff.
Don't don't do.

Speaker 2 (01:42:22):
It, Okay, Bummer bummer bummer Central coming up, The interviewer
asks Natalia if she knows which parts of the body
people aren't supposed to touch, and she says private parts. And
they ask her if anyone has ever touched her, and
she says yes, and she recounts the incident in Ukraine

(01:42:45):
when she was being carried by an elderly gentleman and
remembers getting a towel put on over her face and
being knocked out from that. So it's like she knows
some shit happened, but she doesn't know exactly what.

Speaker 3 (01:43:04):
And I mean sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:43:05):
Your brain just like literally doesn't let you remember that shit.
It's a defense mechanism. I mean it's like.

Speaker 3 (01:43:10):
You don't Yeah, you don't need that. We can't. We
can't do it.

Speaker 2 (01:43:14):
Yeah, it's andy help like intuitive in that way. Yeah.
So I mean, I gosh, I have some fuzzy areas.
I'm like, maybe it's just sometimes it's better not to know.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:43:27):
Really good do you reach deep?

Speaker 4 (01:43:29):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:43:29):
Thank you?

Speaker 2 (01:43:30):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:43:31):
Thank you?

Speaker 2 (01:43:31):
What's on TV? Yeah? So we flashed back to Natalia
and Michael and okay, yeah, fuck this bitch carrass is like,
was Natalia Grace a dangerous person? Did she or didn't
she hold a knife at the end of their bed?

(01:43:52):
And why did so many people report that Natalia was
violent and acted out sexually. It is one of those
unanswered questions in this case. Listen, bitch, you're a legal expert,
not a fucking trauma expert. And if Natalia as a
child was acting out violently or sexually, it's probably because

(01:44:15):
violence and or sexual abuse had been committed against the
fucker right now.

Speaker 4 (01:44:22):
You know what is not a question in my mind
if she's dumb this, this bitch is making something out
of this, oh matter for sure, it's so ma'am no, no,
ma'am immediately no.

Speaker 3 (01:44:35):
And that's why have several seats.

Speaker 2 (01:44:37):
That's why, like these documentaries that are not ethically produced
just like really pissed me off. It's like, call it
a reality series because you are fucking being very meticulous
about how you want things to look, what narrative you
want people to buy, Like, it's not real documentarian, documentarian,

(01:44:59):
it's not journalism. It's not journalism because real journalism should
be unbiased, not some like this is like a tabloid,
but a TV version. Yeah, what are those called star
or whatever?

Speaker 3 (01:45:12):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:45:12):
That's like, that's what this is.

Speaker 3 (01:45:14):
That's exactly what it is. Optoids.

Speaker 2 (01:45:16):
Oh, In September of twenty ten, Natalia was diagnosed with
reactive attachment disorder no fucking Shit, which is a condition
that prevents children from bonding with their family members, and
the number one cause is trauma and it's common with orphans.
And I did look to see if that was like

(01:45:37):
the correct verbiage, because I was like, fuck, man, that
sounds kind of harsh, and apparently it is, which I
thought was kind of wild because they'd come up with
new names for shit all the time, and I was
just like, it just reminded me of like Oliver Twist
or something like please, you know, like the fucking like
little orphan Annie. It's like that sounds like an antiquated term. Man,

(01:46:00):
I'm not saying. I mean, there's nothing wrong with being
an orphan, doesn't it do? I sound fucked up though,
saying there's nothing wrong with being an orphan like that.

Speaker 3 (01:46:10):
Sounds is not I was just not prepared for this.

Speaker 2 (01:46:13):
Now I'm giving you a fucking midstream pop quiz. You
like that, I know it's a lot killing me.

Speaker 4 (01:46:20):
You like that, you like you don't want to fuck
with me. I'm gonna let you know that here. And
now I feel like I've tried. Yeah, it doesn't go
well for you.

Speaker 2 (01:46:31):
You just you like me, So I do it goes okay,
Hi just kidding. It's good. It's good. So now we
hear again from Nicole to Paul, who yes, I actually
have not confirmed this, but Natalia may or may not
be living with them because hot Goss except not because

(01:46:53):
this documentary came out twelve days ago now, but well no,
the last this episode came out on the eighth, so
eight days ago. But Natalia is no longer with the
Man's you guys, So and Alexis said that she thinks
Carras was just trying to play the devil's advocate in

(01:47:15):
the last couple episodes.

Speaker 3 (01:47:16):
So we mean more of people like you maybe.

Speaker 2 (01:47:20):
But like you dah bitch.

Speaker 4 (01:47:23):
Yeah, I mean honestly, I appreciate that aspect of like
check yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:47:28):
I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:47:29):
Hey, I think maybe she's just given a different perspective. Okay, okay,
I do like become stands for people and then become
like hardcore stands, Like how dare you question that?

Speaker 3 (01:47:40):
Yeah? Okay, you do it?

Speaker 2 (01:47:43):
Okay over there, yeah, okay, So she says, I do
believe Natalia has trauma, Like, duh, who wouldn't at this point, Okay,
I mean it's not a belief, it's a fact. So
she thinks that the Barnetts were.

Speaker 3 (01:47:57):
From like the twenty hours of videos that you.

Speaker 2 (01:48:00):
Yeah, like I'm I thinking it's great, yes, right, So
she says that she believes that Barnetts were pushing Natalia
daily to do things that were uncomfortable for her. She
believes that Natalia was in chronic pain, which is is true,
It's been confirmed and absolutely and absolutely miserable and if

(01:48:23):
she was acting out, she was a child who had
disabilities and needed help, and therefore it makes.

Speaker 4 (01:48:30):
Leonecking sense like, yeah, hello, she was a child.

Speaker 3 (01:48:36):
What I mean child? What are we asking of a child?

Speaker 2 (01:48:40):
Any And Natalia is like, yeah, I was diagnosed to
a psychosis, bipolaris schizophrenia, mood disorder, and reactive attachment attachment
disorder that you know, I said what I said, And
she's like, the only thing that I have of that
is reactive attachment disorder. And I would almost you know,

(01:49:03):
going to put my therapist had on argue that I
think she probably has complex trauma because you don't as
a human go through that many major trauma events that
are just event after event after event after event after event.
Your whole fucking life.

Speaker 3 (01:49:18):
Seemed like the whole package.

Speaker 2 (01:49:21):
It's it's for the time she's happened. She's like she's
gone through.

Speaker 3 (01:49:25):
It, all of them.

Speaker 2 (01:49:28):
And the thing is trauma shows is like every disorder
in the book. So also, when was she getting diagnosed
with these things? Because technically you shouldn't be diagnosed with
mental disorders until you're eighteen.

Speaker 3 (01:49:41):
Like yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (01:49:44):
Shenanigans, Natalia says, you know, like ask my parents. Not
once have I ever shown a sign of bipolar She
can understand, and so can I why she would have
reactive attachment disorder because she has seen so many people
who don't want her, so of course she's gonna get

(01:50:05):
like afraid to be attached to people when you get
rejected and abandoned over and over and over, Like yeah,
it's you don't you're not super thrilled to get yourself
into a situation where that could happen again, and in
your experience most likely almost definitely will. So like, you know,
we gain these like sets of beliefs about ourselves and

(01:50:29):
the world and the people around us, not just like
by coincidence, but from learned experiences, it's like, Okay, well,
from my experience, this thing has happened several times, therefore
must be true. And then it becomes like a belief
of yours and it might not be true. It is
probably not, but yeah, so I just I thought that

(01:50:50):
was an interesting point. And she said she's also going
to be scared to get attached to new people because
of what the Barnetts had been doing. It's just, you know,
so many people failed her, but she obviously and this
is like something I get to. She's like, it's it's

(01:51:11):
this is not the correct term, but it's something like
it's an attachment style, like avoidant attachment attacher, where like
you like avoid, you like avoid vulnerability because you want
to avoid vulnerability because you've been hurt a lot. So
you're like but at the same time, you're like, I

(01:51:31):
love you though, because you want to be loved, like
she wants a fucking.

Speaker 3 (01:51:37):
Family innermost desire.

Speaker 2 (01:51:40):
It is, Yeah, people want to be like loved and seen,
maybe even validated once in a while. No, it's it's
true validation. A little bit of validation goes a long way.
Let me tell you, right, it's it's validation with really
good station on in every nation.

Speaker 3 (01:52:00):
Out exactly for being on my level.

Speaker 2 (01:52:03):
Okay, of course, And she said, you know, like I
wanted to get as far away from those people as possible,
but that was not an option for me because I
was a kid and kind of depended on you know,
adults to take care of me when they disabled like
that too, right and right, let's not part like yeah,

(01:52:24):
and ones that make it really really hard for her
to do things that are pretty basic for you know,
people who are fully able bodied. So things that I
and you as people who are able bodied, and you know,
like we can't understand the challenges of.

Speaker 4 (01:52:44):
We can't even fathom. We just can't know, like when
you have something that that like you you can't understand
what it's like to not have it if you've always
had something like that's something we just can't get.

Speaker 3 (01:52:54):
Whether it's her site sound all of like.

Speaker 2 (01:52:56):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that she not. I think
she says that she does remember having some behavioral issues
when she first met her parents with children, Yeah, guess what.

Speaker 4 (01:53:12):
And traumatic situations have happened. I'm sure she had a
big scoop.

Speaker 2 (01:53:16):
Of behavior children and adults with traumatic pasts of behavioral
issues can confirm.

Speaker 3 (01:53:23):
And it is a fact. Raised your hand, Oh, raise
your hand?

Speaker 2 (01:53:26):
Whoa me? No rage monster? No, that's never me okay.
Cynthia Man's, Natalia's guardian at time of filming, said that
when Natalia first got to them, there would be moments
that you know, she was so broken, and the man's

(01:53:46):
have corrected her and she has never retaliated with a
knife or put thumbtacks on the stairs or tried to
hurt their other children. Natalia says that she was lying
all the time and stealing and cussing, and she probably
did say sexual stuff, but she like looks to the
camera and sincerely apologizes and it's like no, definitely accountability

(01:54:11):
and that shit is like important, but like also, you
were a very deeply traumatized child. Yeah. So she said
she was so little and was exposed to so much
stuff that she didn't know what was bad. I mean valid, Yeah, Yeah,
Like I said, that's how kids get like lack of
sexual boundaries, not just because they think of that shit

(01:54:33):
on their own, but they were exposed to something. Carras
says that Natalia has been asked about her memories of
Ukraine but as we talked about earlier, we know that
survivors of trauma often block out memories as a coping mechanism.
And then we speak to FBI agent Veronica Maxwell, and
she says that Natalia had past traumatic events and her

(01:54:55):
childhood was so difficult with all these different sporadic traumatic events,
that it wouldn't surprise her that Natalia was acting out.
Like I mean, I think we don't need a fucking
specialist to say, yeah, like we we get that. We know,
you know, yeah, we've driven that point.

Speaker 3 (01:55:13):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:55:15):
Natalia says she has always tried to remember things, but
she doesn't remember what happened to her while she was
in the New Crain, while she was in the Ukraine.
She talks about the time she was in the orphanage.
A lot of it is fuzzy. She remembers having a
foster family or like a foster mom. At some point,
she remembers being there, but not sure for how long.

(01:55:38):
One day, she knows that she just woke up and
it was totally different, and she doesn't remember how she was,
like just in a new situation all of a sudden,
And she also doesn't remember how she came to the us. Yeah,
so that is really sketch. Veronica Maxwell says that she
wouldn't be surprised if Natalian was handed off to different

(01:56:01):
people for nefarious reasons or trafficked.

Speaker 3 (01:56:06):
I mean, she's a vulnerable person all.

Speaker 2 (01:56:12):
Also, it doesn't help that we're going to talk about
in a second that the judge who handled the adoptions
were all fucked. Kenneth Maxwell, who's another FBI agent, says
that there's still a lot of mystery that surrounds her
adoption in the Ukraine. The records were lost in a
sewer incident at the hospital where she was born. That

(01:56:32):
sounds like a terrible place to have a sewer incident and.

Speaker 1 (01:56:37):
Whoa.

Speaker 2 (01:56:38):
Then he's speaking to Natalia's biological mom and says that
the judge who handled the adoption was terminated for a
corruption a month or so after Natalia had been adopted,
Like corruption for what?

Speaker 4 (01:56:55):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:56:56):
Yeah, And weirdly, the records of her adoption are missing,
you know, from this sewer incident, which what like what
you just lost all your all your important paperwork and
like a giant flood of shit or like I don't know,
you know.

Speaker 3 (01:57:14):
I don't know, it's a little whit.

Speaker 2 (01:57:15):
I don't know. I should actually, I mean, I feel
like I should actually be more sensitive to the fact that,
like plumbing capacities are very different.

Speaker 4 (01:57:25):
You know, they're depending on where you are in the world,
so yeah, anywhere in the world.

Speaker 3 (01:57:29):
Yeah, so maybe that is a thing. I just I
just find it.

Speaker 2 (01:57:32):
I'm very skeptical about everything, and.

Speaker 4 (01:57:34):
I'm thinking like filing cabinets, but maybe they were in
boxes on the floor, just in a room.

Speaker 2 (01:57:38):
But it's just the fact that, like the judge was
terminated for corruption. That's why it makes it. That's why
it smells fishy to me, or that's weird or shitty.

Speaker 3 (01:57:50):
I see what you did there, Yeah, it was really cool.

Speaker 2 (01:57:53):
Thank you. Oh thank god. I'll be here for another
fifteen minutes probably, so. He asks Anna if she had
ever seen Natalia's birth certificate, and she says that she hadn't,
and she also says that she never saw or visited

(01:58:15):
Natalia while she was in the orphanage, and she didn't
know where she was because it was a closed adoption.
Anna was the only.

Speaker 3 (01:58:26):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:58:26):
Anna was only told that Natalia had been located, had
been relocated to the US, and she doesn't know what
happened to her after that until all this like crazy
shit came up in the news.

Speaker 3 (01:58:38):
You know, but hear me out with that years ago.

Speaker 4 (01:58:40):
Now, Yeah, it is interesting to me that the doctor
had like talked to her and said, like she's not
gonna make it, like you, like, this child is not
going to make it. It's going to be expensive, like
telling her all these things that it was going to
cost her to keep her baby. Natalia's mom right, so
she said, I can't afford that, like she has other

(01:59:02):
kids to take care of, so she signed off on it.

Speaker 3 (01:59:05):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:59:05):
My thing is with all of that is that if
indeed is some type of like trafficking thing, it's like
we know how to grab the ones who are look
different and tell the parent they're not going to make it.

Speaker 3 (01:59:16):
The parents are under educated, dude. I'm just saying.

Speaker 4 (01:59:20):
It really immediately made me think like whoa hold on, Like, yeah,
that was a really like usually doctors will be like, okay,
I mean I don't know how it works in other countries,
so I'm not speaking for that, but like, would they
not be like we're going to do this, but like
you have to make payments, it's going to be like
I don't know, I feel like there'd be other options
and like it's too expensive.

Speaker 2 (01:59:38):
No, I totally get that. I am. I don't like
it all, but I really I'm on either. But that
like potentially is an option.

Speaker 3 (01:59:49):
Okay, I know, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:59:52):
Yeah, I know I hate them. Sorry, Oh, it's okay.
It's we're unlike Michael. We are here to learn about
the horrible things of the world. He wants to keep
his eyes closed, but we can't.

Speaker 3 (01:59:59):
That's right, but we're not doing that. Well.

Speaker 2 (02:00:01):
No, the De Paul's said that their social worker taught
them that when a child comes from an orphanage that
was abandoned as a baby, they were definitely going to
have some trauma. Nicole says that if Natalia was now
someone's daughter and she was diagnosed with reactive attachment disorder,
that you would need to accept and prepare for that.

(02:00:21):
It's like it's you can't just be like, well, that's cool,
because I'll just like love them and buy them some
new clothes and then they'll be happy and fine.

Speaker 3 (02:00:29):
Yeah, and then they're going to be okay because that's all.

Speaker 2 (02:00:32):
It takes, right, which is like a very like real
is a very common misconception. I saw a meme today
that was like, don't date somebody with mental health issues
and expect them to get better when you're dating, Like, oh, well,
you shouldn't be depressed because I should make you happy.
You shouldn't have a panic attack because I'm here, and
I should make you safe like seeing you. Yeah, or

(02:00:53):
like you just can't expect somebody to not deal with
their own fucking shit. Spite already waved that where it
would be so chill right now.

Speaker 3 (02:01:05):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:01:07):
Cynthia Mans said that none. Cynthia Mans said that Natalia
had been through a lot and that they coped with
it through family love, like praying together to Okay, listen, listen.
I'm only saying that like that because the fact that
we think that this is a family cult, they're fucking
TikTok and it's called the Man's Clan. Like one more

(02:01:30):
do you need? I mean, I mean, you need more,
but but I just that's why I'm saying it like
that so they will get to it. I have mixed feelings.
They wanted to They wanted to show Natalia that she
was a good person and was able to be loved,
And we go back to Natalian Michael talking Michael says

(02:01:50):
that I don't buy this. Michael says that Natalia's therapist
said that children with reactive attachment disorder needed to be
treated like they were in the military boot camp style.
That's also though, that is something totally that people who
are uh working in the troubled teen industry would like,

(02:02:13):
absolutely fucking say that shit. But it doesn't sound like
they were. You guys, the troubled teen industry is very
fucking expensive, so it's not like you can just willy
nilly send your kid there, and obviously they didn't want
to spend a dime on Italia. But it just sounds like, oh,
what crazy therapists would say that a child with trauma

(02:02:34):
needs to be treated like, uh, they're in the fucking
boot camp to heal. That's that's those things aren't conducive,
just throw that at them.

Speaker 3 (02:02:43):
No, not at all.

Speaker 2 (02:02:45):
So the therapist shared words. According to Michael, the therapist
shared words with Christine that she took and ran with
and she somehow made everything into a system of privileges consequences.
And Michael again makes it about him and says, abusers
want to make you feel like you're the only one

(02:03:07):
and that you can't tell anyone, and he's just totally
talking about himself, though he's not He's not like, oh,
extending that to Natality.

Speaker 6 (02:03:15):
SCEs no, No, it wasn't about her at all, and
she starts crying.

Speaker 2 (02:03:19):
And again, I think in part because she's like, man,
I am just not gonna get what I want from you,
what I came for, And I feel that hard, and
I'll leave it at that.

Speaker 3 (02:03:32):
I wait, what happened? Oh, I just almost.

Speaker 2 (02:03:35):
Dropped it like it was hot, and then I kept going.
Then I kept kept going. So Michael says he's thankful
that he and Natalia are alive today. Okay, okay, okay, sir, okay, sorry,
but he does say something along the lines of I
could have killed myself ten times in the last year,
which I'm not wanting anybody who's experiencing until health crisis

(02:04:01):
to the point that they are experiencing suicidal ideation and
thoughts is I'm not going to put that down. We
also just have agreed that we are concerned with Michael's
intent when he says says things, and whether it's to
express his truth or whether it's to garner sympathy.

Speaker 4 (02:04:21):
It felt a little gas lighty on the way he
said it, so like following what she said, and it's
a little bit I do Again, I'm not saying he
has not experienced that. It's not the right time for
him to be saying that to a child.

Speaker 3 (02:04:34):
Who he was supposed to be the father to. Like,
that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (02:04:37):
Right like, because next she says, you know, Christine tried
everything to make me into a monster, and Michael goes, yeah,
she did the same exact thing to me, m and.

Speaker 3 (02:04:46):
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

Speaker 4 (02:04:48):
No.

Speaker 2 (02:04:48):
Yeah, so don't.

Speaker 3 (02:04:49):
Do that when you're part of the problem.

Speaker 2 (02:04:51):
No, Like, just you shut it up, take accountability, bro.

Speaker 4 (02:04:55):
Yeah, oh my god, he was just cop out, cop out,
cop out.

Speaker 2 (02:04:59):
Michael says the last time he saw his sons was
in January of twenty fourteen, after that whole like I'll
kill you, I'll kill you incident where he repeatedly told
Christine that she was he was going to kill her.
And honestly, like, I think he's just a very emotional man.
I don't think that he had any dangerous intent, but.

Speaker 3 (02:05:19):
Kind of emotional outbursts.

Speaker 2 (02:05:20):
Yeah. Christine definitely though she like filmed it and was like, hey, kids,
look like dad's a murderous monster. And this I think
is hilarious. Michael says that she'd convince the boys that
I was going to kill them, because like she would
show them stories about familicide and like, you know, dads

(02:05:42):
who had killed their family. And he says, you know,
the boys would stand at the window, and well, I
guess he talks to Jacob, now, so that's probably I
guess how he would know. But he said the boys
would stand at the window watching out for me, like
to make sure that I wasn't coming for them or whatever.
With what yeah vibes, I know, did we not just like, fully,

(02:06:04):
fucking have.

Speaker 3 (02:06:05):
We not gone there before?

Speaker 2 (02:06:06):
Have we not just confirmed the fact that children might
grab a knife when they're in fear for their life.

Speaker 3 (02:06:13):
Well, here we are again, because oh.

Speaker 2 (02:06:16):
My god, I'm now I'm confused because when Natalia as
a child had a knife, it's because she was trying
to murder you. Yeah, but your kids are just doing
it because they're scared. Yeah, that doesn't super line up,
weird oops, But you know, Natalia can tell that Michael
is struggling, struggling.

Speaker 3 (02:06:37):
Struggling, and we are struggling.

Speaker 2 (02:06:39):
We're all struggling and struggling, and she feels that, you know,
he feels guilty, which I'm sure he does, like part
of you.

Speaker 3 (02:06:47):
Know, he kind of should.

Speaker 2 (02:06:49):
He absolutely should, I'm saying, but I think like guilt
and remorse are also different. Guilt is very much like
I feel bad because I did bad things. Now I
feel like it about me, where remorse is like it's
not about I feel bad because I did this. It's
about like I want to acknowledge that you had something

(02:07:10):
done to you and that has affected you and I
did that, and it's not about why I did that,
but just the fact that I did. But I mean, so,
she she asked, yeah, She asks if she ever if
he ever thought how it would affect her, and he
says that he thinks about it all the time because

(02:07:33):
he has the cross with her middle name on it
where he has to see it every day, and he
says he beats himself up over and over for not
being stronger, and that's where he says that he could
have easily killed himself ten times in the last year.
And then Italia gets really emotional and this makes me
sad because I feel like she's being gas lit. She says,

(02:07:54):
that hearing about Ethan and Wesley is really hard because
she now, you know, now she feels bad for them
and the things that they had to go through and
that they still have to be with Christine because obviously,
like Michael's okay and Christine's the real giant monster here
and Michael's like, they're gone forever unless we get a miracle.

(02:08:14):
And he says he just wants everybody to find peace
and not be terrified, and he's sorry for not being
stronger for her, and they're both crying, and she says
that she forgives him, and he says, you don't have to.
I don't forgive myself. Then she asks if she can

(02:08:36):
pray for him, and then he kneels down and she
prays for him, and he says this is how they
get free, and it's very emotional, and Italia says it's
not easy for her. It's not easy for her to
forgive him, but everyone deserves a second chance, I know, babe,

(02:08:57):
Do they do?

Speaker 3 (02:08:58):
Oh? Babe, I don't.

Speaker 2 (02:08:59):
Like. I feel like something that I'm trying to work
on learning is that like forgiveness isn't for other people,
it's for us. Yep.

Speaker 3 (02:09:07):
Yeah, So that's she's she did it.

Speaker 2 (02:09:10):
For herself, but it looked like she felt guilted into
doing it. But I don't. I'm not her, so I
don't know.

Speaker 4 (02:09:16):
I'm gonna tell you, I'm not always giving everybody a
second chance.

Speaker 3 (02:09:19):
I just don't.

Speaker 2 (02:09:22):
It's tenuous. It's tenuous with me and Chante. You got
to watch out there. It is oh not my Michael said,
even Christine. Yeah, like, does Christine deserve a second chance?
I'm gonna say, I don't know. And you know, they
shake hands, they walk away. Natalia looks relieved, and Michael

(02:09:47):
struts out with his uh his sunglasses and drops up
like drives off and is converted down. It's it's sick,
whatever that ride is, it's I would yeah great, and
carrass believes that Michael is still making excuses and he's

(02:10:08):
not taking accountability for the abuse, and time is running
out again. This isn't a belief, this is just facts and.

Speaker 4 (02:10:17):
Okay, I mean I'm not a lawyer, and I know
all those facts. I just I'm curious where her law
degree came from, because I would love to have one
as well.

Speaker 2 (02:10:24):
Like cooked, here's here's again where I'm like, yeah, now
now you're being sketchy again. She watches this praying scene,
It's like, yeah, that's really powerful. The tea, the tears
seem real, and it seems like they both got what
they were hoping for, an apology and forgiveness, but the
reaging issue is still unsolved and it's the one area

(02:10:46):
Michael says is completely off limits. So didn't Italian Grace
actually forgive him or is it a ruse to get
information for a possible civil lawsuit or trialed on the road?
Shut up, bitch, stop it.

Speaker 3 (02:11:04):
Somebody needs to take you down the road.

Speaker 2 (02:11:05):
Sit down.

Speaker 3 (02:11:06):
You need to listen.

Speaker 2 (02:11:08):
Listen, shut it what I mean? There was so much
talking from her and Michael's attorney that it's just like
why all it did was caused drama, which is like
what you were looking to do a good job, like
they have of them had anything real to say. So

(02:11:28):
this adoption day, Natalia's in her room with her little
board that's counting down the days, and like everybody's super excited,
you know, she's giddy and happy, and the man's and
the rest of the kids are going down to the
courthouse and Natalia's excited to shed the Barnett name. Forever

(02:11:48):
and she gets adopted. The she gets granted the adoption
and her name is changed to Natalia Grace Renee Man's
and they're all hugging and crying. It's very emotional. Natalia says,
she's so happy to be adopted by the Man's. It's
the greatest feeling, you know. Now, she just wants to

(02:12:08):
focus on getting her age changed to what it's supposed
to be and getting her high school diploma and yay
flowers and sunshine and happy endings.

Speaker 3 (02:12:18):
I don't dun, dun.

Speaker 2 (02:12:20):
Two weeks and six months later, production gets a call
from the Man's.

Speaker 3 (02:12:26):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (02:12:27):
Okay, first of all, if the mans are having issues,
why the fuck are they calling the production team an
investigation discovery about it? That's my first question. That's my
first Like literally, the producers receive a phone call. Antoine
Mans says, something isn't right with Natalia. This girl is tweaking.
I feel like she is the enemy in the house.

(02:12:49):
She says that we have held her hostage and she's
making it look like we're the enemy. And then Cynthia
comes in and she goes Natalia is stabbing her family
in the bed over a complete lie. Back to Antoine.
She's done other things too, but this was a new low.
Natalia doesn't have emotions for anyone but for but any

(02:13:11):
for anyone but herself. We are done with her. Hmm
superimposed or whatever that says across the screen. Natalia's story
will continue up, got up, so fucked up. It's just

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