TSFU Ep. 169- PARRICIDE: The Menendez Brothers part I

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Dan Stewart stated, quote, I've seen a lot of homicides,
but nothing quite that.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Brutal, blood, flesh, skulls.

Speaker 1 (00:09):
It would be hard to describe, especially Jose, as resembling
a human that you would recognize.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
That's how bad it was. End quote. That is so
fucked up.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
It's fucked up, so fucked up.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
It is just so damn fuck up.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
That's fucked up.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Hey, everybody, Welcome. Nope, I hate it. I hit it.
I hit it.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
That's called a soft opening, errand which is f yi,
So welcome back to that's so fucked up. A podcast
that makes you say, ugh, that's so fucked up. And uh,
if you're new here, welcome Ben Venidos. That's the only
that's the only fucking too languages I know Welcome.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
And do you know any others?

Speaker 3 (01:02):
Aaron, oh lah, that's all. Hello. Well that's all I got.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Okay, Well, fuck, I'm disappointed in myself.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
I'm disappointing myself, not in you.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Okay, I thought I knew welcome and like at least
one more language. But anyways, if you are new to
the podcast, Welcome, we talk about all kinds of fucking
shit here today we're talking about murder. Recently, we've been
talking a lot about mccameie manor Holy shit, four part

(01:36):
deep dive into this extreme haunt run by this absolute psychopath.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
It's been a.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Super hot minute. And I actually don't even know if
there's any of these on the feed because the first
hundred episodes are on the Patreon only for as low
as five dollars a month at patreon dot com. Slash
Tsfu also ad free episodes all kinds of cool shit.
What I was going to say though, that I don't
know if we've talked about in quite a long time,

(02:03):
is shark attacks or aliens.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
But I like to talk about all kinds of weird shit.
Coercive cults are that's a big one of mine, and
soon trafficking and it's more than you think, y'all. It's crazy.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
So Hi, I'm your host, Ashley Love Richards, and today
I am once again joined by one of our lovely
research assistants. It is not Kristen today. Today it is.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Miss Aaron Collins hi erin Welcome. Hello, so excited to
have you on the show.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
Well, I'm excited to be here.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
I am so impressed with my podcast friends who do
everything themselves, all of the research and all of the editing.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Love those Love those guys, love that for you.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
I need help, and so I am so fucking lucky
to have a team that helps produce the show because
we always want to make it the best, most thoroughly
researched and best sounding quality for y'all.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
And it's a lot of work. Aaron, how do you
like researching for the pod? Do you have fun?

Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yes? I do because I get to do something different
each time because you were all over the place and
I love it.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
I'm all all over the place. Is crazy.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
I know that I didn't list a lot of crazy
interesting stuff right there, but we have some pretty weird
shit coming up.

Speaker 3 (03:32):
Have you seen the new Stanford Prison experiment documentary that
just went up on Hulu? I think it's on Hulu.
I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure where they're actually
interviewing the people who were in the experiment. You need
to watch it.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yeah, okay, you guys, So thank you, Aaron.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
That's a perfect example of one of our more kind
of like random Topics did a whole season of our
spinoff that's so fucked up about psychological and social or
psych social experiments. And whoa speaking of psychological torture? What
are your thoughts on mckameey, Well.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
That guy's insane?

Speaker 2 (04:14):
Uh huh.

Speaker 3 (04:15):
I wanted to talk about Terrifier. Can we talk about
it for a second.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah, I want to hear what your thoughts are.

Speaker 3 (04:22):
I want to talk about it with you because I
am a horror movie buff, right.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
Uh huh?

Speaker 3 (04:28):
And I love Terrifier, So what do you think about that?

Speaker 2 (04:31):
I think it's interesting because.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
I think I was raised on horror movies, so for me,
this is just something I enjoy. And I think it's
a fine line with eighties movies and everything, where with
satanic panic and people who listen to metal music and
even like us the things we were interested in and research,
there's a fine line with that versus what Russ is doing.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
The thing is is that I really do try to
reserve my judgment because I can't understand why people would
like that, right, But it's very popular, nonetheless, So I
haven't seen a single one of them, so let's start

(05:16):
off with.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
That, right.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
Maybe I saw Hostile in bits and pieces, and I
definitely saw the first saw.

Speaker 3 (05:24):
And I think Hostile is more gruesome than Terrifier. Honestly,
really yes, because to me that's scarier because I think
that is something you could go overseas, and that to
me is more real, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (05:37):
You know that's that? Yeah? That was also I was
like that fuld feels real plausible, right that.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
See, that's the kind of stuff that scares me. If
it's more, it can happen.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
And I've heard about these terrifier movies is that they
try to make everything look as realistic as possible, and
they just keep getting more and more with each iteration
and just a lot of up close. One scene I
heard about is like, actually more random shit I talked

(06:10):
about in one episode Medieval torture Methods and Devices.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
WHOA.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Somebody commented on the post, I can't believe Ashley is
laughing about this awful And.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
I was like, have you listened to you listened to
the show?

Speaker 1 (06:25):
I laugh at everything. It's all awful, Like what are
you talking about? That's how I get through it. And
one of the torture methods that I mention in the
medieval episode where they hang somebody upside, I don't even
want to say it. Trigger warning you guys. Trigger warning
for the next ten seconds they hang up somebody upside

(06:46):
down and then they saw them from the bottom to
the top. No, no, I can't even like say it. Also, Okay,
it's so weird because the things that disturb me that
I can like tolerate are so fucking random. Okay, Like

(07:07):
Russ mccamye, right, absolutely, when he was from like twenty
fourteen to twenty seventeen. I found him around twenty fourteen
twenty fifteen, so he had a good amount up on
his YouTube channel. And as you guys know, if you
listen to the series of you didn't, oh my.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
God, good? What fuck?

Speaker 1 (07:27):
He was absolutely making torture porn. Absolutely, and that was real.
He was for real psychologically and physically and emotionally and
probably in some cases I absolutely believe, at least in
more recent times, it's sexually abusing these people.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah. No, So I think that's worse.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
I do, And that's why I've been obsessed with Russ
mccamee and Mcamie Manner literally for a decade.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
I called my boyfriend. I was like, it's he's torturing people.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
It's not on YouTube, and he's like, you have to
turn it off, and I'm just like watching video after video,
just flipping out like I couldn't look away. You know,
it was like it's got clockwork orange.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
I can't well see that and see that to me too,
is more disturbing and more scary because it's psychological and
it's so yeah disturbing, and like that's the kind of
stuff to me that is way more scary than something
that I can see is a practical effect and I
can see how it's done, and I can that, you
know what I.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
Mean, everybody just went nuts for small things, dirty things,
Emma Stone.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
Poor things. Yes, I haven't seen that yet because I
have no desire to watch it. I don't think I
can get through it, okay, and see, I watch everything else,
but I don't think like that cool concept of that
movie disturbs.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
Me, right girl, same?

Speaker 1 (08:51):
I literally, to be honest, I would probably do this
during a terrifier movie too. I walked out of the
theater forty minutes in. I was like, I don't watching
a full grown woman with a baby's brain masturbating with produce.
This makes me uncomfortable. The whole movie tries to make
you uncomfortable though, from the lens, it the angles, and
you know, I don't like movies that are meant to

(09:13):
make me uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
That's not something I like.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
And I'm not a fan of super gory movies.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
I did like what did I just watch? Maxine?

Speaker 3 (09:26):
Oh? I loved that movie. I thought it was really good.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
I thought it was the best out of three three
I agree.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
I didn't actually really like the first two very much,
so I don't know why I kept watching them. But
Maxine was pretty fucking brutal, but I thought it was fun.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
It was it was also it was a fun time.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yes, you know, I don't judge people for what they
liked to watch. I know a lot of really good,
fucking people who love this shit. So I'm sure we
all have things about us that people would judge us
about because it's not something that they understand.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
I don't understand the appeal. Also, are they particularly violent
against women?

Speaker 3 (10:09):
No, they're not. And that was another thing I don't
really I mean think it's women per se.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
That was an impression I was under I guess not. No,
just because.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Violence against women and the hatred of women is so
intense in our society, and I feel like pornography has
gotten like really violent.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
And so it just it scares me a bit. I
guess that this intense violence against women as entertainment is
so easily accepted by everybody now.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
I think that's one of the problems that I have
with it, is it scares me a little bit.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
That looks like, oh dope.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
But I will say, knowing that it's just kind of
gruesome across the board does make me a lot less
on edge about it because I thought that it was
mostly directed at women, and that's when I was just like, no.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
And I think that's a trope a lot of times
for horror movies, where they just think that that's what
it is. Especially in the eighties, it was true, you
know a lot of times, well it's just women running
around naked and you know, blah blah blah. But it's
really not. And a lot of it is because of
the practical effects and getting away from the CGI. It's

(11:29):
just getting back to what it used to be for people.
And we got off on a whole tangent. I'm sorry,
I derailed everything.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
Well, you know what, that's what the fucking fast forward
button for. You know what, y'all? I get it sometimes
pressing that skip button.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
It's annoying, you know, sometimes I get into the episode
within like five minutes. I think that was an interesting discussion.
Though this probably will be a two part episode though,
because I have a pretty solid amount of notes, and
I believe you do too.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
I did just have.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
Big case, which we haven't even said what it is yet.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
While our society is very into violence against women, luckily
in true crime cases, especially murder, they're kind of starting
to in some cases look a little bit more at
nuances versus looking at things so black and white. And

(12:24):
I think that historically abuse and mental health have been
things that have been pretty misunderstood in the judicial system,
and I know with this case kind of with more knowledge,
they're going just to tell me, am I wrong?

Speaker 3 (12:43):
No, You're completely right. I think it's crazy if you
look back at cases and how crazy insane there's been,
you know, convictions for not just the menendos, but several thousands,
probably millions of cases for sexual abuse and whatnot, mental
all sorts of things, and just if those same cases
were taken today, they'd be completely different outcome.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
I mean, I talked to doctor Yanya lollik Up Yanya,
I love her, and she was telling me about testifying
in a case where this woman had left her two
children to die in a hot car in the middle
of a desert. But it's because she was let's instead

(13:27):
of but say, and because both of these things are true, Like,
that's super fucked up, and she was under the coercive
control of a fucking psychotic cult leader. And Yanya testified
in that case too, basically, And I think.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
This is a hard pill for a lot of people to.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
Swallow, And even with me having an understanding of this stuff,
sometimes it's a little bit you know, As I was
learning about this case, I was like, well, yeah, like
it's really fucked up what they went through a but
also a lot of people go through really fucked up
stuff and don't super brutally murder their abusers. And there's

(14:07):
also the fact that they did have the means.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
Probably maybe to get away.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
And even understanding that that woman was under course of
control and that Yanya was testifying in her defense to
try to make the jury understand, I think just like
the severity of the crime made it harder for.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
Me to accept.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Whereas Leslie van Houghton, I did a two part episode
on her. She was one of the Manson girls who
was involved in the murder on She was not involved
in the murder on Ciello Drive, I believe, I think
it was just in the other one. But anyways, she

(14:51):
stabbed a already dying or dead woman to death, and she
was under the course of control of Charles Manson.

Speaker 2 (15:00):
One of the most like manipual of cult leaders of all.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
Time, So that one was easier for me to wrap
my head around. So I do understand. I understand that
there are nuances and that people have city or psychological
damage from abuse, and I understand where it's like, okay,
but you know, they deserve to be punished. But I

(15:23):
think what we're going to be talking about a lot
with this case is okay, well for how long, right,
and for whatever? Because Leslie Van Houghton was in prison
for fifty five years, and I thought that was kind
of fucking insane.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
So let's get into it. The Menendez Brothers.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
On August twentieth, nineteen eighty nine, jose and Kitty Menendez
were watching TV in the den of their lavish Beverly
Hills mansion. Twenty one year old Joseph Lyle Menendez and
eighteen year old Eric Gallan Menetez walked into the den

(16:06):
with loaded shotguns and shot Jose six times, including a
fatal shot to the back of the head, and Kitty
was shot ten times in total, unfortunately surviving most of them,
trying to crawl away to safety and having a final

(16:27):
shot on her face and cheek, which is the one
that was fatal. Eric had to hand ammunition to Lyle
to reload his gun to fire that fatal shot.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
So it's it's brutal.

Speaker 3 (16:41):
Do you remember this when this happened? Was this a
big thing?

Speaker 2 (16:44):
No?

Speaker 1 (16:45):
No, no, because we were talking about a little bit
before we started recording.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
This was right around OJ.

Speaker 3 (16:53):
Well, no, not this the second trial was.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
I don't remember this because I was too in nineteen.

Speaker 3 (17:00):
Eighty nine, So no, you don't remember this.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
Jose was forty five and Kitty was forty seven at
the time of their deaths. They met at Southern Illinois University,
and after just a few months of dating, married in
nineteen sixty three. From there, they moved to New York City,
where Jose earned his accounting degree from Queen's College, and
they had their first son, Joseph Lyle. He's known as

(17:30):
Lyle menandas Lyle there, and he was born on January tenth,
nineteen sixty eight. After he was born, they moved to
New Jersey and a few years later they had their
second son, Eric, and he was born on November twenty seventh,
nineteen seventy.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
The family lived in.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
Hopewell Township and they both grew up in a wealthy
suburb with their parents. Jose eventually became an executive at
Hertz Corporation and later RC Records, and he was a
very driven man, very into climbing that corporate ladder.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
His first job that he started.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
Had some insane fucking salary, like in today's money, two
hundred thousand a year or something.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Six figures is that it?

Speaker 3 (18:23):
Oh yeah, oh.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
No, he wasn't he wasn't happy with that. Jose Menendez,
the dad had grown up in Cuba pretty rich, but
when Fidel Castro came into power, his family lost their
money and he always felt very oh like boo, I'm
entitled to be a rich person. He was just super

(18:46):
into money.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
That was his jam. So he moved to America.

Speaker 3 (18:51):
Super into money. But everybody in the money.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
He felt very entitled to a lot of it. Though.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, when somebody signs up for just five dollars a
month at Patreon dot com esf you just I just
shit and giggle, good good stuff. I appreciate every single
one of you. This guy he's not even happy with
two hundred thousand dollars because a year. Because you know,
he grew up as a little rich boy. So when
the boys were a bit younger, Jose had a more laxed,

(19:21):
daisical parenting style. He kind of let the boys do
whatever they want. They were, as a result, became very entitled.
Their dad had a very arrogant attitude, and they inherited
that as well. They went to school every day in
a fucking limo. It's that's crazy, sauce.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
Can you imagine I took the bus, Okay, I walked,
So I.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
Walked five miles barefoot.

Speaker 3 (19:49):
Bare shoes, no coat.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah right, every day. Did a limo Once for somebody's birthday.
I don't think it was mine.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
I just went in one, and I think, like for
pro we got a limo. I think that's the end
of my limo stories.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
I've been in one once from a friend's birthday and
that was it. Once one time.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
It's understandable, honestly, how you would get this kind of
entitled attitude when you're given.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
If that's what you're used to every day, you don't
know anything else. Yeah, But along with.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
The limo rides was a lot of abuse behind the scenes.
We will get into trigger warning sexual abuse allegations later,
but something that was very apparent to everyone around them
is that Jose wanted the boys to be tennis stars,

(20:41):
to the point of.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Have you seen ey Tanya?

Speaker 3 (20:44):
Oh? I love that movie?

Speaker 2 (20:45):
Okay too, so good.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
I just watched it the other day for like maybe
the second or third time, and it reminded me a
lot of how Tanya Harding's mom treated her. Yeah, just
on the sideline, demanding more than perfection. Yeah, one hundred
and ten percent, no matter if they're fucking sick or
injured or whatever. Yeah, you guys highly recommend it.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
Tanya. It's with Margot Robbie.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
Yep, dude, she is so hot, Like, bitch, get out
of here. You know, the abuse that you see Tanya
Harding going through in it, Tanya reminded me a lot
of the abuse the boys receiving from their dad. Just
watching on the sidelines, super fucking critical, very perfectionist. If

(21:35):
they're not doing everything perfectly, if they're not goddamn champions.
Every time. There will be consequences. I mean there will
be consequences with or without that, because Jose is a
psychotic abuser who not only abused the boys, but was
very abusive to Kitty in front of the boys and

(21:58):
allegedly even encouraged them to join in on abusing her.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
Sometimes that's disgusting.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
One thing that's hard about this case is that it's
all Eric and Lyle's word, right, like that kind of
stuff that happened behind closed doors. So the only witnesses
we have are Eric and Lyle. And also, though, dude,
who wants to admit that they like fucking beat up
on their mom. That's not a great look, even if

(22:28):
it is at the behest of somebody else. Just because
we were talking about a lot of people don't understand
the psychological effects of abuse and how you could watch
that or even join in, which.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Reminds me a lot of the Natalia Grace case.

Speaker 3 (22:42):
Oh my gosh, right though, how the yeah, you're.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
Right, kids were encouraged to join in on the abuse
or Sylvia Lichens, which is I will never cover that
case just because no, is that.

Speaker 3 (22:56):
The one where she her mom dropped her off.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Of the mm hmm and they put her in the basement.

Speaker 3 (23:02):
Yes, okay, yep, yep, yeah, enough said.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
I'll just never cover that. I just I can't, Okay.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
So probably also a part of the reason that where
there's torture happening, I really don't like it, because getting
tortured to death or not is one of my top
three worst nightmares other than being stranded at sea and
getting eaten by sharks, and those are I think my

(23:30):
main too.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
That I'm just like, no, no, that's a fuck no
for me. Dog.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
So, especially when there's real life cases of people being
tortured and other people either participate or even just watch
and let it happen instead of notifying authorities or like anyone,
that's the scariest to me. It's just, what's one thing,
if you're locked in one psychopath's basement, nobody knows you're there,

(24:00):
you got people watching and knowing about okay, AnyWho, that's
top number one. I mean, the ocean with the sharks
is very high up there as well. But I feel
like often people who watch abuse and don't say anything
are almost.

Speaker 3 (24:18):
Worse, yeah, because they're not doing anything about it, and
they know.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
And the abuser obviously has something very fucking psychologically wrong
with them to be doing such insane things. My mother
was abusive and my father was not. They were very
on and off in their relationship, and he would send
me to go live with her.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
Oft knowing, knowing, knowing. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
Now I'm at a very fucking weird place in my
journey with them where I've kind of just accepted that
they're both very fucking mentally ill people. But I still
spent a lot of time being more resentful towards my dad. Yeah,
not growing a fucking pair of balls, and like, hey,
that's my kid, yea too, and you're not going to do.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
That, right.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
So I think they found this well, obviously, I know
that one of the brothers and maybe you know, asked
the mom if she knew that the sexual abuse was
going on, and she said, of course I did.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
But he's just an idiot.

Speaker 3 (25:23):
I think that's what finally broke them in that case.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Fuck kitty, it's I know you're an intense victim of
abuse as well, but dude, dude, no, there's no excuse
for that, for knowingly letting your child be sexually abused
or abused at all. But especially sexually abused by anybody
in their life.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
But if we're playing devil's advocate, what was he doing
to her to get her to that point? Maybe we
don't know.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
Right, know what I mean? I mean, it is a complex, it'suary.

Speaker 3 (25:58):
That's what's so hard about these cases is it's like
it's non black and white. It's so gray.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yeah, weirdly like so many other things in life, right exactly.
Only took me like a decade plus of therapy to
just get to that point where.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
I'm like, you know what, I think there might just
be some more gray area than I've been recognizing. So
the family moved around a bit.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
They moved to Calabasas, California, into a huge mansion, and
Eric got average grades, but he was especially talented in tennis.
He ranked forty fourth in the US as a junior.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
That wasn't good enough, right dad?

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Oh cool, if you're not first, your last? Ready, Bobby,
I love that You've.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
Gotten every reference of mine. Oh that's so exciting.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
So we know that. Or I don't think he hit
the boys in front of other people.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
But he was openly aggressive with them, right right? Oh yeah,
and we do know that from so many other cases
now that fucking oh my god, so many gymnastics coaches.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yes, we now.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
Know that massages are a huge sign of grooming. Also
from Dan Schneider Nickelodeon. You know, always asking these fucking
young girls to give him a massage, and so we
now know that massaging is grooming behavior. And in the
name of sports, Jose would often be seen massaging the boys.

(27:36):
And there's one picture I'm sure you've seen it where
Jose is like, I don't know. It's been pointed to
as look, Jose is openly fondling one of the boys
in this picture, but I don't know. Parents, Maybe leave
a comment, you know, you guys, if you're on Spotify,
you can leave a comment on the episode I learned.

(27:56):
I also don't think I get notified, So if you
leave one and I don't respond, it's not because I'm ignoring.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Also, if anybody leaves.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
Any messages anywhere, email, Instagram and I don't respond, it's
really not personal.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
I blame it on my ADHD and other issues.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
One of the things that stresses me out the most
in life is talking to people, answering messages or picking
up the phone. Oh my god, I gotta call my grandpa, dude.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
And that starressles you out so much.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
It's literally one of my main stressors in life. I
have one hundred and sixty one emails right now in
the podcast inbox.

Speaker 3 (28:39):
See that wouldn't make me crazy because I can't stand
when I have anything in my inbox. It has to
be zero.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
I feel like I gotta throw away my personal Gmail
because it's all a spam, Like I didn't even check
that shit.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
I just go in and delete my Gmail. No, it
has to be zero because of my ocd's too crazy.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah, where for me at the opposite, I just look
at it and I'm like, I can't do that, and
then I go on with my day and I secretly
stress about it, like backhand. A former classmate and friend,
Alison Treesel stated, quote the level of pressure that jose
would put Eric into in a public setting, I could

(29:18):
only imagine what it was like when they were at
home behind closed doors end quote. And that's always what
scares me too, when you see.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
Because he's that bad just in public. That's in public,
So imagine he's ten twenty times worse in private, because
if he's willing to do that in front of people.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
When I see a parent in public being super agro
with their kid, I'm just yeh, fuck hurts my soul.
In nineteen eighty eight, Lyle and Eric committed multiple burglaries.
They even ended up stealing more than one hundred thousand
dollars in cash in jewelry from one lady from Was

(30:02):
that just from one lady? I think so, I'm pretty sure.
And Jose took them to her by the fucking scruffs
of the neck and were like, Hey, my children are
delinquents and they stole from you. Here's everything they stole,
and here's a twelve thousand dollars check for what they
already pawned. And I imagine that just had to be

(30:25):
out of like thrill seeking because they had everything they
could possibly need.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
Or probably bored too, they just wanted to do it.
They actually they did that scene in the Ryan Murphy Show.
Did you watch it?

Speaker 1 (30:38):
I didn't because I heard that or maybe I watched
the first episode. I know that Ryan Murphy portrayed them
as having a sexual relationship as late teens or early adults,
and it pisses me off because I love American horror story,

(31:00):
so I love Ryan Murphy for that, but I think
that he has a tendency to make kind of unethical
true crime shows where he's not being super considerate of
the victims or their families or the victims slash perpetrators.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
In this case, I know that a lot.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Of Dahmer's victims were not happy with the Netflix show.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
Right, not his victims because most of them.

Speaker 3 (31:24):
Are dead, right families.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
Right, Yeah, I didn't watch it, but tell me, tell
me what happened.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
They showed that scene, So I'm glad that was truthful
because they showed him literally grabbing them by the neck
and taking them to the house. But he just flipped
out his check book and said how much do we
owe you? And he just wrote a check for the.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Unless it's like Spotify podcast that I listened to Serial Killers,
So yes, I do believe that actually happened because I
listened to a factual account of it. They also did
this weird thing though, where they'll narrate what or Kitty
is thinking, How would you know that?

Speaker 3 (32:03):
How do you know? Right?

Speaker 1 (32:04):
But they did state a few times that they got
a lot of their information from this really well researched
and written book. I don't know the name, I don't remember,
but they do do that in true crime books as well.
Think about Truman Capodi's in Cold Blood. Often he'll describe
the thoughts of the killers just because he got to

(32:25):
know them right personally.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
He doesn't know what they were fucking actually thinking. I
don't know. Take that stuff with.

Speaker 3 (32:31):
A grain of salt, exactly.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
Yeah, it's like, oh, and they were thinking this or whatever.
Jose gets a job working for RCA.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
So I believe that's a record label, correct, yes, And
this is his highest paying job yet.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
So now they live in this huge mansion in Beverly Hills.
Around this time, though, Lyle attended Princeton University.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
I want to say, New Jersey. Am I right? I
feel like I am?

Speaker 3 (32:59):
No, you are right, You're right?

Speaker 1 (33:01):
All did Oh I'm terrible, you guys, I'm a little
impressed with myself.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
Oh me too, I'm real bad. Oh.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
And in case y'all were wondering for the robberies, they
did avoid jail time.

Speaker 2 (33:12):
Isn't money fun?

Speaker 3 (33:13):
Yeah? I mean sorry, but they were mandated.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
To go to therapy. Sorry, I just it's the justice system.
It's a laughable name for it.

Speaker 3 (33:25):
They were rich.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
Unfortunately, Lyle was placed on academic probation for poor grades,
and was eventually suspended for plagiarism.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
You know, he just couldn't play.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
By the rules because that's not something that had ever been.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
He doesn't have to something he really had to do. Yeah.
Eric also showed some pretty interesting behavior in high school.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
He wrote a screenplay about a rich young man who
killed his parents in the Perfect for the inheritance money.
I find that a little bit odd. Seems like I'm
a little us because well, Eric was eighteen at the
time of the murders, So what in high school, you're like,

(34:13):
at minimum thirteen, most likely between fourteen and seventeen.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
My son just turned eighteen, he's a senior.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
So so it's like, actually, because I don't know when
in high school, but that is that's not great.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
It sounds like he's an even plane a little.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
Well, it's just also, it's like, are the people who
write the Terrifier, you know, playing out a fucking fantasy?
It's right, we don't all think like Stephen King is
sick in the head and that motherfucker writes some crazy
shit that were a lot of us are super into, right,
but it's just it's oh, it's very foreshadowing of what
actually ends up.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
It's very similar to what happens.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
So on August eighteenth, nineteen eighty nine, Lyle and Eric
went to several gun stores in California to buy a handguns.
Then they changed their minds to shotguns once there. Shotguns
are fucking gnarls, you guys, because they're the ones that spray, right.

(35:12):
They have the buck shot yep, that is meant to
fuck a motherfucker up for realities. So they found out
that Lyle's driver's license had issues, so they weren't able
to get the handguns, and there was a two week
waiting period mandated by the law for handguns, but they
were able to buy two Mosbird twelve gauge shotguns instead.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
Explain that one to me, you can have the worst gun,
but you can't have the handgun.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
I bet it's because hunting. Yep.

Speaker 3 (35:44):
Yep. That still doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
No, it's still fucking insane.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
So they bought bird shot and buck shot ammunition. And
this was all done at a big five sporting goods
store in Saying Diego, So you know, go get your guns, guys.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
Hey, Maurica, what's up? Yeah? Whoa?

Speaker 1 (36:06):
And Eric used just stolen driver's license to complete this purchase.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
That's maybe like the.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
One smart thing they did in the crime. They weren't
great criminals, and neither would I be. After the killings.
Two days after buying the guns on August twenty, at
eighty nine, they shoot Jose six times and Kitty ten times.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
And I think that's.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
A little telling of the whole bystander versus abuser effect
that we were talking about, where oftentimes victims of abuse
are angrier at the parent in this situation and many
situations for not doing anything that for not doing anything,
for just letting it fucking happen.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
Once I heard the tidbit about yeah, of course I
knew I'm not stupid, I was like, I kind of
like understand why Kitty's murder was a little bit more brutal,
a little bit angrier.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
I feel.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
Also, just the fact that Eric had to hand ammunition
to Lyle to reload his gun to fire the fatal shot,
there's this moment of hey, she's not dead maybe, And
that's the other thing I guess I struggle with a
little bit like it wasn't self defense because this was
pre planned and it was extremely brutal. There was like

(37:30):
they hadn't lost their mind. They knew exactly what they
were doing, as proved by that final act. And a
lot of people get abused and don't commit such violent acts.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
And usually when.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
There's parricide, often the child is doing it out of
an act of desperation, like Gypsy Rose for example.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
Like they don't have any way to get away, right,
But they had acts as to money.

Speaker 3 (38:01):
But did they because it was told that he was
taking away their inheritance. That was one of the things too.
He said he was taking their money away.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
Right, And allegedly Jose often threatened to kill them, right.
And I think that parents who are physically and I
mean especially who are mentally and emotionally abusive, that's not,
in their mind a crazy fucking thing to say, especially

(38:31):
if they're abusing substances, which I didn't hear any accounts
of Jose doing. I did hear accounts that Kitty was
hitting the sauce pretty hard, right, But I don't think
death threats are super uncommon coming from abusive parents to children.
You would think that a parent would never say that shit.
But it is wild to me how some people can

(38:54):
like bur the human or even just like see a
human that's not connected to them, but especially one that
you made and then do things to them. But as
we will talk about, there are more nuances.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
There's a lot going on here.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
After the killings, both brothers remained at the house for
several minutes, expecting the police to show up immediately because
these were very loud gun shots. But this is Beverly
Hills and people aren't assuming. They're not assuming that, you know,
you think it's rich neighborhood. People aren't just getting shot

(39:29):
multiple times. They're kind of waiting and anti climactively, like
nobody shows up. They picked up the shell casings to
ensure that fingerprints wouldn't be found, and they got rid
of their clothes, I believe somewhere along Mouholand Drive, and
they put their shotguns, which were in their tennis bag,

(39:51):
into the trunk of their car. They went to a
movie theater to try to establish an alibi, and.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
They're like, can we get tickets marked for like earlier?

Speaker 3 (40:01):
And don't work that way the like. No.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
They did also try to make plans with a friend
after they went to the movie, but nothing stuck, so
they just kind of ended up going back home instead
and calling the cops themselves. Lyle called nine one one
and said, someone killed my parents.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
They said that they had just come home and.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
Discovered the bodies, and Eric could be heard screaming and
crying in the background. The police did find it kind
of suspicious that they remained at the scene of the
crime because usually people but also this was like the
fucking late eighties, what I mean, they could have gone

(40:45):
to a neighbor's house, so usually though, people don't stay
at the scene of the crime in case the fucking
murderer who you know just apparently shot your parents very
gruesomely to death, is still there. So that was kind
of like one thing they did that was not super
well planned out. When the police finally showed up, the

(41:05):
boys ran to them screaming. Lyle and Eric both told
officers that they were somewhere else at the time of
the killings and that they thought the murders might be
business related, hinting at a mafia hit. But the mafia
is generally they're pretty good at crime. They're clean, yeah,
and this was not that right. This was an amateur job.

(41:30):
The police they did not test for gunshot residue on
the brother's hands.

Speaker 3 (41:36):
Sorry, you have one job, Come on, one job.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
At this point, it's like they think they're telling the truth,
and okay, you can think that, but especially within the
first twenty four hours when wait, hold on, is that
when they're most likely to find a missing person or
be able to solve a murder?

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Ipe both?

Speaker 3 (41:52):
I think probably both.

Speaker 1 (41:54):
I mean, you know, strike when the iron's hot, right,
so they didn't test their hands for residue. And you know,
I'm interested to hear your episode, which is going to
be separate because this one's a bit long. I'm interested
to see what my thoughts are once I have a
more complete version of the story because I didn't research

(42:16):
beyond the I think the first trial, I wanted to
hear it from you and be surprised. But this I'm
feeling pretty torn on this case. I also don't know
how much time they already spent in jail and stuff,
so we'll get to that. Police officers and forensic staff
described the crime scene as the most brutal they had

(42:38):
ever encountered, which is I think saying a lot. Especially
is Beverly Hills, Los Angeles, because I would think if
you lived in LAPD, you would see some pretty gnarly shit,
but maybe if this is like Beverly Hills.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Pretty they have a little bit different experience.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
Retired police detective Dan Stewart stated quote, I've I've seen
a lot of homicides, but nothing quite that.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
Brutal, blood flesh, skulls.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
It would be hard to describe, especially Jose, as resembling
a human that you would recognize. That's how bad it was.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
End quote.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
According to the autopsy result, one blast caused explosive decapitation
with evisceration of the brain and deformity of the face
to Jose, and the first round of shots struck Kitty
in her cheek, right arm, left hip, and left leg,

(43:34):
with the fatal shot causing multiple lacerations of the brain.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
I would also say that.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
I think that's overkill, which also just would signify a
lot of rage, which is understandable considering.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
The abuse that they endured.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
I'm saying the rage is understandable, not necessarily because I
mean they're shooting her in the arm, the hip, the leg.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
Those aren't fatal shots. That's just to hurt.

Speaker 3 (44:05):
So they just they just went in there, like you
said in our blind rage, and just started shooting. That's
what it's like.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
But it's not necessarily a blind rage.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
Well it is, but they bought the guns two days before,
that gets.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
Right, But then the meditated blind rage.

Speaker 3 (44:23):
Yeah, but then they were so amped up that they
went in there and you.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
Know, yeah again, I'm at this point feeling pretty torn
at this case. Detectives initially listened to Lyle's suggestion and
looked at the case as mob related activity, and Jose's
business connections were not of the highest pedigree. I think
that's correct wording, but they were sketch so this was

(44:48):
not completely implausible. In the months after the killings, the
brothers went on crazy spending spreeze, spending apparently up to
a million dollars or some shit.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
I don't have exact figures.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
They were spending very lavishly on luxury items, business investments.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
I think one of them bought into a chicken shop.

Speaker 3 (45:10):
Yeah, and one of them bought into a business. They
were buying cars and rolling travels and staying at the
Ritz because they wouldn't stay at the house. So the
company like offered to put them up in a hotel
and they were like, oh, we'll stay at the Rits.
Mean it was.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
At the time of Jose's death, he was worth around
fourteen million dollars. Lyle bought a Porsche nine eleven carrera,
a restaurant in Princeton, New Jersey, probably the chicken one
forty thousand dollars worth of clothes, and fifteen thousand dollars
in Rolex watches Eric bought. I think this is kind

(45:46):
of funny, a geep wrangler, you know, he went for
something practical.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
He went practical.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
He hired a fifty thousand dollars a year tennis coach.
I'm assuming this is back then money, because yeah, that's so.
I'm wondering, like what the fourteen twenty thousand dollars worth
of clothes, Like, I think I could do that?

Speaker 3 (46:06):
Oh, I could do that, definitely.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
I could fuck that up pretty easily in less than
a few months.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
He hired the time very expensive tennis coach and traveled
for tennis matches trying to become a pro, and also
made some fucking sketchy investments of his own former classmate
and friend Alison Treesel, who I mentioned earlier, who said
that Jose was like very aggressive publicly, so like what

(46:35):
was going on behind closed Doors said that she met
Eric and some other friends at a yogurt shop not
long after the murders and said that she was quote
struck by the lack of sadness and concern. He talked
about money and cars and watches and going to Israel.
I remember that distinctly end quote.

Speaker 3 (46:58):
Just to play Devil's advocate. If you're Dan was abusing you,
would you be sad? I know they did it.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
Well. My mother right has been abusive my whole life.

Speaker 3 (47:10):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
I'm no contact with her now because she'll she says
crazy shit. She's very verbally and emotionally abusive. When I
know that she's suffering, Yeah, it hurts me. She's kind
of like the person who's caused some of the most
trauma in my life, and she is abusive, but I
still love her and care about her.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
It's really fucking annoying.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
But so if I murdered her, I would have remorse
and feel sad.

Speaker 2 (47:39):
I would have some feelings about it, I think so.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
On the other side, my dad was the same way,
and I don't have contact with him, and if something
happened to him, I'd be fine with it.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
Yeah, So I mean, do you think that if you
brutally murdered him, you'd be just chilling, sleeping and night.
I wouldn't do that, right, So, I mean this points
to some severe mental issue, like sociopathy or something. And
what we know about personality disorders is that they do,
most of the time develop from trauma, right, which doesn't

(48:12):
excuse them. But complex PTSD is also something that develops
from trauma, but it doesn't give you the traits of
a sociopath or a psychopath, and you can acknowledge it
and work on it. Where people who develop personality disorders
as a product of trauma ninety five percent of the
time can't even recognize that they are a sociopath. Oh yeah,

(48:36):
obviously Jose and Kitty were fucking fucked up too. Eventually,
the boys moved from the Beverly Hills mansion into adjoining
condominiums in Marina del Rey, where they dined at high
end restaurants and took several overseas trips to the Caribbean
and London. They're iconic for ending up in the background

(48:57):
of a Mark Jackson trading car after they attended a
New York Knicks baseball game. By the time they got
caught they had spent somewhere to the six to seven figures.
It was a lot, and the spending is what tipped
police to consider them as suspects due to the financial motive.

(49:17):
Family members did take the brother's side and disputed a
connection between their spending and the murder of their parents.
They stated that there were no changes in their spending
habits after the killings, and that's kind of how they
had always spent money.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
That's just what they did.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
I mean, they did at their father's behest to take
a limo to school every day because Jose was an
and Kitty were very concerned with.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
Looks optics YEP.

Speaker 1 (49:47):
Eric's high school friend, Craig Signerelli, reported to police that
Eric had confessed to him. Craig confessed that he knew
exactly how the killings took place, and police also heard
from Lyle's friend, Glenn Stevens, further information that Lyle had
made a sudden trip back home from Princeton to destroy

(50:10):
a document in the family computer. Lyle said that a
family member found a new will and he went there
to erase it because I think.

Speaker 3 (50:20):
You said earlier, taken them out.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
Lyle and Eric out a computer expert was hired to
make sure all evidence of the new will could be
permanently gone, and this story was confirmed by Craig Signorelli
because he was there while the new will.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Was being erased allegedly.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Surprisingly, Eric and Lyle both eventually confessed to their psychologist.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
Jerome Oziel.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Oziel told his mistress, Judelon Smith what they had said.
Eric said they did it to put their mother out
of her misery, and Lyle confirmed that they were both
in on the crime. Ozl then began recording their sessions
consistently and kept everything a secret from detectives. Ozel and

(51:08):
Smith eventually broke up, and at that time Smith informed
the police about the confessions because weren't.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
They afraid for their lives? I know, I feel like
Smith was.

Speaker 3 (51:19):
I think the doctor really was just in it to
he wanted to write a book, and that's what he was.
He claims he was scared for his life, but I
think that was a cover honestly.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
Ah.

Speaker 3 (51:28):
Okay, I actually think it's doctor o'zial.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
Sorry okay, no, thanks for saying that. It sounds like
he kind of fucking sucks, so anyway, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:37):
It doesn't think he's a very nice person. I mean,
you can't hide evidence from the police.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
I mean, come on, no, you're not supposed to do that.

Speaker 3 (51:44):
And he was kind of treating the mistress kind of
crappy too, So he was just a scumbag. Honestly.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
I don't like therapists who are scumbags, right, especially.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
She he was her therapist, and then he started sleeping
with her.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
Can't that is that's super unethical, right, Yeah, that's not cool.

Speaker 3 (52:02):
Yeah, you can't do that too, Like I said.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
Smith informed the police about the confessions, and it was
debated for two years whether the tapes could be used
in court. The Supreme Court of California ruled that two
of the three tapes were eligible to be used during
the trial, and one of those included the admission of
guilt by Lyle. Lyle was arrested on March eighth, nineteen ninety,

(52:26):
found outside of their Beverly Hills home. Eric then turned
himself in three days later when he returned to la
from Israel. Both were held without bail and jailed separately
at the Los Angeles County Jail. And I think that's
a good place to stop.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
For now, because then in the next episode we'll get
into the trials and the aftermath and bring all up
to speed as to where we are at as of
this recording, which is December eighth, teenth, twenty twenty.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
Four, and a lot has happened since then.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
Yeah, I also said that I was going to get
into sexual al abuse al abusigations.

Speaker 2 (53:12):
Y'all got that, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (53:14):
And I will do that once we start getting into
the first trial. So make sure to tune in next
week for part two of this episode. Everybody's wasn't this
kind of the hot topic in September twenty twenty four?

Speaker 2 (53:29):
You know what, you guys? Listen.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
I get to things when I get to them, all right,
And I mean more has happened since then.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
Ittill the hot topic.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Come on, it's still pretty hot right as to when
this comes out, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
If it'll still be pretty hot, but whatever. So I
hope y'all enjoyed this episode.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
We're getting back into some deeper dives which I always
enjoy and I hope you do too. And if you
don't want to wait all the way until next Friday
to hear part two, and you want to hear it
on Tuesday instead, only four days from now, I mean,
I don't know about you, but I'm an impatient person.

(54:09):
I will just say one more time patreon dot com
slash tsf you, I'll pim something else in the next episode,
like bingo, because fucking time.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
I know we got to do it next time.

Speaker 1 (54:22):
Terrible, but yeah, thanks for listening, guys, and we shall
see you soon.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
Have a great day. I don't know about you, Aaron,
but I thought that was real fucked up. Oh as fuck,
I've fucked up. That was real as fuck.

Speaker 3 (54:40):
And real fucked up.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
Well I didn't even fucking remember it. So you did
a Oh you did better than me.

Speaker 3 (54:46):
Good job, we got there.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
I bet there's a bunch of listeners being like really
really like we we know, we know it. I even
disappoint it.

Speaker 3 (54:55):
I'm like, I gotta practiceze, you.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
Can be mad. Just please don't be disappointed. Okay, bye
bye b b boom boom boom. That's what got job
so fun up. Can't you see?

Speaker 3 (55:07):
It was just really perfect.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
That's what the

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Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}TSFU Ep. 169- PARRICIDE: The Menendez Brothers part I

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Stuff You Should Know

Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2

All Episodes

TSFU Ep. 169- PARRICIDE: The Menendez Brothers part I

Dateline NBC