TSFU Ep. 170- KILLER KID: Mary Bell, Child Murderer/Murderous Child

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
When Mary was young, a friend of hers was hit
and killed by a bus and she witnessed the accident.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
You said this one was gonna be fun.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
It's it's a different I don't know about fun, but
it's it's a different sort of story.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
Once we get into the murders, it's it's not fun,
but it's you know, it's different.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
That is so fucked up.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
It's fucked up.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
I'm so fucked up.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
It is just so damn fun. That's fucked up. Well,
come back. No, I didn't like that. I hated that.
I hated that so much.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Welcome back, Welcome back, Welcome back.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
What's that from?

Speaker 1 (00:54):
It's a song? I don't know, it just like popped
in my head.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Well I hated that last so so hey, guys, welcome
back backstreets back, all right, Ashley's back, tesf you's back,
Kristen's back here today, So welcome back. This is That's
So fucked Up, a podcast about things that make you.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
Say, that's that's so fucked up.

Speaker 3 (01:17):
I'm your host, Ashley Love Richards, and today I am
joined by one of our lovely research assistants.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Hey, what's up. I'm Kristin Jones.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
Hey, Kristin Jonesy. Yeah, you guys have met Kristin in
a few prior episodes. She's been on the research team
for a while, and you know, we jive. So as
y'all know, I'm going to be having some rotating co hosts,
and some of them will be just popping in here
and there. Some of them will be a little bit

(01:47):
more consistent. You know, Kristen's a great researcher and storyteller,
so we've.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
Got her back today.

Speaker 3 (01:53):
Who.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yes, So I believe that.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
We are doing a classic murder, aren't we.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, murder, but like with a kind of a twist.
It's not your average murderer.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
I'm just always like, you know, murder killing, same category.
But yeah, no, I guess today we don't have the
typical like middle aged white male.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
With anger issue killer.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yes, today we are talking about Mary Bell and it's
a little wild. So shall we get started.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
I yes, I have two cases in my mind because
I definitely know of the Mary Bell case.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
I know that she's a child, Yes, she is a child.
She was a child.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
Well yes, at the time, she's not anyone.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
And I don't remember the specifics though, of the crimes,
so I'm excited.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Well, then this will be fun. Yeah, yeah, all right.
So Mary Bell was born on May twenty sixth in
nineteen fifty seven to Elizabeth mccricket Bell, who also goes
by Betty, and her biological father is unknown. Betty was
a sex worker, an alcoholic, and a drug addict, which

(03:16):
could be why she doesn't know who Mary's father is.
And Betty was actually only seventeen when Mary was born. Also,
Mary was Betty's second child Jesus, so she had an
older sibling.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
I cannot imagine having two kids at thirty seven, let
alone seventeen.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, seventeen doesn't sound like a fun time. Growing up,
Mary's mother, Betty, had a safe and supportive family who
was very religious, and at one point in her life
Betty was actually supposed to become a nun. And then
Betty's father passed away, and that is when she sort
of kind of spiraled out of control. Betty's aunt, Issa,

(03:55):
I'm gonna say it's Issa mccricket said that when Mary
was born and the nurse tried to hand Betty her baby,
Betty shouted, take that thing away from me. Oh, so
she clearly wasn't really sent out to be a parent.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
Or Mary was born evil like in the Omen or whatever,
and she fucking knew.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
And she knew ahead of times.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
She was like, get this demon baby away from me.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
She had this like sixth sense of what was gonna come.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
Or this is like the first major trauma that happened
to Mary and subconsciously affected what she did later.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
Not too after Mary, Betty went on to have three
more children and did not reportedly want any of them.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
Okay, that literally sounds like my fucking nightmare. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah, So she had what five children in total, and
I don't think any of them were wanted.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
Which is really sad for the kids. It is.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
I'm also just thinking from a woman's perspective, like what
you're body and every part of you goes through and
to not want that just sounds like torture.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yes, I've done it three times, but I wanted those
three children, so to not want that as wild. So
Mary's mother, Betty, eventually married Billy Bell, where Mary gets
her last name. When Mary was just a baby, Mary
viewed Billy as her dad, and for the most part,
he treated her better than her mother did. Though Billy

(05:28):
was a violent alcoholic and a criminal whose arrest record
included things like armed robbery, and he was often in
and out of jail, so he wasn't an overly consistent
presence in Mary's life. And it had been reported that
Billy was abusive towards Betty and Mary, which if he's
a violent alcoholic, I could believe that right. All through

(05:51):
Mary's early life, she suffered frequent accidents and injuries while
she was alone with Betty, and Betty's family began to
believe that either Betty was just a horrible parent and
extremely negligent, or she was intentionally trying to harm Mary.
And when Mary was around three years old, she actually

(06:13):
fell out of a window, and I believe it was
like a higher up window. I don't know if it
was a full second story, but it definitely wasn't just
a little, you know, knock over the side, right. And
on another occasion, Betty tried to drown Mary in the bathtub.

Speaker 3 (06:28):
So do they suspect that Betty threw Mary out of
that window?

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Yes, they suspect that she was pushed out or something
of that nature. Oh gosh, Because Betty also suffered from
severe depression, mood swings, and violence, with a number of
different medications in the home to try to help her,
though she often gave those medications to her children, telling
them it was candy.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
All of her children were taken to the hospital multiple
times for overdoses, and Mary even had her stomach pumped
when she was a year old because she had gotten
a hold of some medicine that was in the house.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
Quote unquote had gotten a hold of it.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Correct. So you know, I feel like a lot of
this adds up to not the greatest environment for brain
development for a young child, right. A criminologist who studied
the case does say that it's possible Betty had Munchausen
or Munchausen by proxy, which I know we call what fictitious.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
Factitious disorder or factitious disorder imposed on another. Yeah, I
knew it.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
Had a new name. And Betty really seemed to enjoy
the attention and sympathy that Mary's quote accidents brought her.
Among other horrible things that Betty did to Mary was
trying to give her away several times, only to ever
brought back home by different family members. She tried to
give Mary away when she was three to a woman

(07:56):
who was attempting to adopt Betty apparently walked in to
an adoption agency and saw a crying woman who was
going through this adoption process and it's you know, it's
a difficult, long process, and she told the woman here,
take this one.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
Well, God, Mary probably would have been better off with
this sensitive woman who wanted a child.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yes, and the woman was actually going to move to Australia.
And this, by the way, is in the UK, so
the woman was actually going. Yeah, the woman was actually
moving to Australia. And Betty's sister came and put a
stop to the adoption and brought Mary back home because
she thought she was acting in the best entrance of
her niece, which I don't quite understand that unless she
just wanted her to be with her biological family. But

(08:40):
obviously that was not a great situation. Betty beat her
children and even her husband, Billy with a dog chain.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
Oh so it sounds like her and Billy had a
mutually abusive relationship.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yes, it sounds very volatile. Mary grew up an impoverished
area called Scottswood at the west end of Newcastle, which
doesn't mean a lot to me as I'm not from
the UK, but I believe it's like a small village.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
Shout out to our UK friends. Huh hey, guys, you
might know that is maybe maybe.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
This community saw children running unsupervised, getting into trouble and
committing petty crimes. They would often leave home in the
morning be gone all day. There were a lot of
rundown homes and buildings that the kids would just go
climb in and play on. The bell home was described
as bleak, with no personal touches that you would see

(09:36):
in a normal family home, like no pictures, no, you know,
no warmth or sense of like home and belonging.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
Just like a house, not a home.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Just like a house that you're you're in for you know,
a short extended stay, a short extended say that made
no sense, a.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
Short you're there for a long time, but it seems
like it'd be there for a short time because it's
not nice.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yes, Despite the home small size, friends of Betty and
Billy would often stay the night. So Mary shared a
room with one of her siblings. And this room was
this tiny little room that had been previously used to
store hole So I imagine it was just downright gross
and black from all the soot and yeah, so it

(10:21):
was it was a rough existence. Betty would often travel
to Glasgow to work the streets there, so they must
be close to Scotland or in Scotland totally. Yeah, sounds her.
And she would leave Mary for days at a time,
so she would be gone who knows how long. I
don't think she really had a plan.

Speaker 3 (10:40):
Neglect and abandonment can leave just as heavy of scars
on kids as abuse. I mean, they're just they are
forms of abuse.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, it sounds like her life was nothing but neglect
and abuse. It really is so sad. Yeah, despite what happens,
it's sad. While Betty was gone in Glasgow, Mary was
either looked after by Billy unless he was in jail
at the time. She would go to whatever family member
was available. Mary later said she didn't miss her mother

(11:12):
while she was gone, and that she actually felt relief
when she was away from her, which is just really sad.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
She also said, quote everything was all right when my
dad was there, but he was not there often, which
is also just so sad for her.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Betty would also bring her clients home. She specialized in
BDSM and asphyxiation, which could possibly be where the dog
chains came from. That she would beat them with.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
Oh, so she was like a dobin atrix.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yes, that's what it sounds like.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
And she would bring clients to her home.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yes, where she had five children. I assume they all lived.
I never saw anything that said that they did not
all live there. It is highly likely that Mary was
exposed to the exphyxiation where she would you know, internalize
it that this is a pleasurable thing for a man. Oh,
which will be important here soon.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah. Betty also kept whips and chains in the house,
and social workers would ask about this when they would visit,
and Betty's response was I always hid the whips from
the kids. I mean I remember like hearing that and
being like, okay, Like I kind of want to laugh
at that.

Speaker 3 (12:26):
It's so hard because I keep thinking about Betty Page
talking about this, like Betty, Betty, who's a dominatrix who
has mental health issues.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, this one a little different. That's not my Betty,
that's not your Betty. Mary would later claim that her
mother involved her and allowed her clients to abuse Mary
from as young as age four.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Oh dude, no, yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
Mary said she was sometimes blindfolded and had her hands
restrained behind her back and forced to perform sex acts
on Betty's clients. Mary's siblings dispute the claims and said
they never witnessed anything like this, but I mean.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
Because they didn't see the doors close.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, And as a result of all of this abuse,
Mary became a chronic bedwetter, which is super common. Yeah,
in these kinds of cases, they usually.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
Get punished for wedding the bad tale.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yes, because she then became afraid to even go to
sleep and wet the bed because her mom would rub
it in.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
Her face like a fucking dog.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
Like a dog. Yeah, she'd rub her face in it
and the mattress and then leave the mattress out for
everyone to see. So just you know, humiliating and degrading.
And when Mary was young, a friend of hers was
hit and killed by a bus and she witnessed the accident.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
You said this one was gonna be fun.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
It's it's a different I don't know about fun, but
it's it's a different sort of story.

Speaker 3 (13:59):
Once we get it to the murders. It's not fun,
but it's it's different.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
Different, it's actually a different type of story. But from
the moment that she witnessed this horrible tragedy of a
friend being killed by a bus. She then suffered from PTSD,
which who wouldn't, especially when you're that young. As she
grew into a school age child, she was described as
very odd. Her teacher said she was very bright and smart,

(14:28):
but she found personal interactions and making friends to be difficult.
She was intelligent, but also manipulative and coercive, and as
her school years went on, she became increasingly sinister to
other children, regularly hitting and choking them, which leads back
to the exphyxiation that she witnessed at her home.

Speaker 3 (14:49):
Right, and she's acting out on other kids what was
happening to her.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
Mary was described as being a compulsive liar, volatile, violent
towards other children, and lacking general social skills, and she
also was described as lacking empathy, as she looked often
for small animals and birds to kill.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
That's always a bad sign, really bad sign.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, I feel like this case, this case is horrible, yes,
but it could have been so much worse.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
It feels like okay, okay. She could be.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
Calm one minute and completely explode the next, and her
classmates viewed her as an unemotional bully who only received
joy and harming others, which honestly feels a little bit
like Russ mckamie, which we've been talking about.

Speaker 3 (15:39):
Oh yeah, a little bit. Hopefully all went on that
journey with us.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
No kidding, it's wild. Mary had one friend. Mary's one
friend was named Norma Bell, but they were not related,
and she lived two doors down and was two years
older than Mary. Norma was described as not very bright.
And this is this is really sad. It was said
that her face was almost permanently set with a look

(16:04):
of confusion.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
Please tell me she doesn't kill her only friend.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
No, Norma, Norma does not. Norma does not bite the bucket. Okay,
but it is still so sad that you can tell
she just was completely taken advantage of. And I have
not even gotten into Norma, and you can just already
tell Norma played second fiddle to Mary, and she was
easily dominated by Mary's personality, so she just kind of
went along with whatever Mary wanted to do. Mary and

(16:30):
Norma would spend their days exploring the area of torn
down homes in their town, which, from the photos that
were shown in one of the videos I watched, just
looked like horribly dangerous and oh this is what they.

Speaker 3 (16:43):
Did, like, yeah, construction sites are not the safe place
right play and.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
It was like big concrete blocks and stuff, and it
just it was crazy. They Mary Norma had often discussed
running away, and they fantasized about living in a Western
movie and being on the run from police. Their relationship
went from being mischievous in nature to petty crime, and
their first convictions were for theft, and they both pled guilty.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
It doesn't usually start with murder, it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
Social services was actually aware of both girls' situations, and
it felt like they didn't do much. Norma was one
of eleven children, and social workers were often involved in
providing aid for their family. Obviously, Mary's home life and
problems with her parents were also well known, but they
never intervened directly because the girls would show up at

(17:36):
school and they were always dressed in proper clothing, so
they just let it go. Now. On May eleventh, nineteen
sixty eight, three year old John Best was found bloody
and confused near the pub in town. John Best was
actually Mary's cousin three He was three and Mary's how

(17:56):
old again? How old is she? At this point? She
is eleven? Yes, Mary's eleven, and then Norma would be thirteen.
So earlier in the day, Norma and Mary had taken
John to a candy shop in town, and later after
John had been found by the pub, Mary and Norma
said that they had sent him home after they went

(18:18):
to the candy shop, and then later they found him
bleeding and confused to buy some sheds in town. The
man who found John near the pub took him inside
and called an ambulance, and at first it seemed like
he just had some sort of accident. However, what really
happened was that Mary and Norma took him to an
old air raid shelter and played their version of a

(18:40):
game they called Dare.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
I know you guys, my face right now, it's yeah, it's.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
We don't get too graphic. There's nothing too graphic.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
I don't like it.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
This game that they created resulted in rising levels of violence,
where Norma would make excuses and back out of the dare,
but Mary Mary would just push the limits without even thinking.
It turns out that Mary had actually pushed John from
a high ledge and he fell obviously, and that's how
he had obtained his injuries. So the next day, on

(19:13):
May twelfth, Mary and Norma broke through the fence of
a playground and a nursery school. I think that that's
like what we call an elementary school maybe, So this
is all going to ramp up pretty quick. So one
day later they break into this playground. It was a Sunday,
so school wasn't in session, but there were three other
girls playing in the sandbox, Pauline Watson, age seven, Cindy Hepple,

(19:35):
age six, and Susan Cornish, age six. Mary demanded that
the girls leave, but they refused. Norma later gave a
statement on the events that followed. So this is Norma's
take on the situation.

Speaker 3 (19:50):
I'm paying attention and reacting, and you guys are just like,
I don't have a lot to say. I'm just kind
of like, boo uh, yeah, it's a lot.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
I just kind of have sounds to make about it.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
I guess, yeah, I get that that. That was me
like taking notes and listening to this nice British man
talk about this case.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
You're like, and I can only listen to him talk
about it ever again, he was very lovely.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
So Mary asked Pauline if she knew who Mary Bell
was Pauline had replied, yes, it's you, but Mary tried
to deny it and say that she wasn't that Mary Bell,
which this conversation is just and now it's coming from Norma,
so you know, but still it's the weirdest conversation. So
then Mary asked Pauline if she could fight Mary Bell,
and Pauline said yes, which like, okay, Like I have

(20:38):
a six year old almost seven, and I don't know
that he would be like, yeah, fight you. Cool, maybe
his sister, but not some random kid on the playground.
Mary then asked the girls what happens when you choke someone?
Do they die? And they didn't really get a chance
to reply. Mary put her hands around Pauline's throat and
she had started to turn purple. Norma said that she
told Mary to stop, but she wouldn't, so Mary took

(21:00):
turns choking all three girls and putting sand in their mouths.
The three girls all did escape and ran home and
told their moms, which their mothers called the police, of course,
and Norma and Mary were brought in for questioning, which
I just can't imagine at eleven and thirteen being brought
into a police station for questioning, so Mary claimed that
Pauline had fallen and that's how she hurt her throat.

(21:23):
But Norma gave the full account, which is what I
just read. However, no further action was taken by police.
They did nothing.

Speaker 3 (21:30):
They sound like they are on the ball in all
regards here. Yeah, prospective services, the cops, they're all just doing.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
They're looking out.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
They're looking out fine job.

Speaker 3 (21:40):
So.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
About two weeks later, on May twenty fifth, nineteen sixty eight,
four year old Martin Brown left home in the morning
to play with some friends, and he never returned. Martin
was described as cheeky and energetic, with curly hair that
bounced as he ran and played. And when Martin didn't
return home for tea, his parents weren't too worried because

(22:02):
this was common with kids in the area. They'd just
be out playing and wouldn't come home. They often played
in an area called rat Alley. It was a place
that had a ton of rundown buildings that kids would
climb in and explore.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
Hold on, this isn't the two kids who get like
tortured on the train tracks or something?

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Right?

Speaker 3 (22:22):
No, okay, do you know in case I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
I do not, but it sounds awful.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
Oh yeah, okay, it's uh oh yeah, that's a bad one.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
That's a real bad one. James Bulger's murder. Oh fuck.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
So around three pm there were three children who were
playing in rat Alley and they discovered Martin bloody and unconscious.
There were electricians nearby working in one of the rundown houses,
and the children ran to them to get help. They
tried to revive Martin on the scene, and during all
of this commotion, the kids who were playing started to,

(22:59):
you know, be attracted to the scene and were observing
what was going on. And of course Mary and Norma
were some of the first to arrive after you know,
all of the commotions started to happen. Some people said
they observed her watching with glee, which is gross. But
by the time Martin's parents had been alerted, he had died.
So a police investigation was opened up, but they struggled

(23:21):
to find a cause of death. Initially, they found an
empty bottle of aspirin close by, and so they thought
maybe he overdosed and gotten into it, as you know
little kids tend to do, but no other evidence was
found to support that theory, so it must have just
been a coincidence.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
Or if she planted that that's some pretty next level shit.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yes, I don't remember finding anything that says that she did,
but that would have been wild, extremely manipulative for an
eleven year old. Yeah, the police had very little to
go on, and in the end they labeled Martin's death
as a tragic accident. However, Martin's sisters, Sharon and Linda,
were interviewed. This was a more recent interview, but they

(24:01):
said that their mother initially thought Martin had just fallen
in the old houses and it had been an accident
because there were no broken bones or sign of violence.
Asphyxiation had been ruled out because there were no marks
on his throat, so their mom just thought it was
a horrible accident. Now, the day after Martin's death, Mary
turned eleven, So she wasn't eleven yet, she's eleven.

Speaker 3 (24:23):
Now that's a weird cycle of life thing, Like she
killed somebody the day before her birthday.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
Like that's fucking weird, right.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
It is weird. She said, was celebrating or something. This
is what she did on her birthday. So on her
birthday she had been caught strangling normous sister by Norma's father,
and so she spent her birthday in an absolute rage

(24:54):
because she had been caught. He broke up the fight.
Norma's father broke up the fight and gave Mary what
the nice British man described as a sharp tap on
the shoulder, and that made Mary so angry that she
needed to take out her rage. So Mary and Norma
went to break back into the nursery school, and this

(25:15):
time they vandalized it. They overturned tables, tore up books,
and spilled paint all over. When teachers and staff arrived
the next day, they obviously called the police. Now, four
separate notes were found in the school that claimed responsibility
for Martin's murder. They were poorly written, with many spelling mistakes.
One note read quote, I murder so that I may

(25:35):
come back. I don't know what that's supposed to mean.
I mean, you can just tell that these are children.
A second read quote, we did murder Martin Brown.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
Fuck off, you bastard. They're trying to sound all adult
and badass.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yeah, And then the third note read quote, fuck off
we murder. Watch out Fanny and Faggot. Now Fanny and
Faggot were their apparent alter egos that they would pre
tend to be these two characters, you know, when they
wanted to be on the run from the police and
their Western movie fantasies. So that's what they call themselves.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
Probably shouldn't sign the note with an altery ego that
you may have openly used around other people.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
Probably not. They weren't quite smart enough to not do that.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
They were like ten, though, so they were yeah, yeah, yeah,
they were ten.

Speaker 1 (26:25):
I have an almost ten year old, and yeah.

Speaker 3 (26:27):
I got it.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
Fucking sleep with one eye open, lady.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
I bet her, and she's the sweetest. So the fourth
note read, you are mice? Why because we murdered Martin Brown.
You better look out. There are murderers about by Fanny
and old faggot you screws. That is so hard to
just read because it makes no sense.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
Do you think they realized that there was a rhyme
in the middle. You better look out because there are
murders about, you know what. You couldn't help that they
notice that there was a rhyme in the middle.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
Our brains pick up on that, but I don't know
if they did. Okay, But here's where it gets even worse.
The police dismiss the notes as an awful, childish prank.

Speaker 3 (27:03):
Oh, it was awful and it was childish.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, prank, not so much. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
Now, in her classroom, Mary had kept a journal where
she wrote about Martin being found and gave evidence in
the journal that she knew about the crime, like way
more than she should have, you know, details only the
perpetrator might know.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
Right.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
She in the journal drew a picture of his body
with a pill next to it, So maybe she did
plant it.

Speaker 2 (27:30):
I don't know, dude, dude, what come on?

Speaker 3 (27:32):
Yeah, I think she planted the bottle. I mean, she
is far better at criminal than I would be. Fuck.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
Her teacher actually found the journal, and handwriting experts were
brought in to compare Mary's journal to the writing on
the walls at the nursery school. They determined that the
writing on the walls was a combination of mary enormous handwriting.
So Mary would write part of her word and then
Norma would finish it, and then they would like take turns,
kind of like mixing and matching their handwriting. But despite

(28:00):
the handwriting, the police still found no firm evidence to
put them at the scene.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
Well, they have found handwriting to be sort of a
junk science, right.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yeah, haven't they I feel like it. I feel like, yeah,
it's kind of like polygraphs, where yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
It's like okay, but exactly.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
And this was the sixties.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
Reasonable doubt, which is not allowed in court right now.

Speaker 1 (28:20):
In the days following Martin's death, Mary and Norma went
to visit Martin's mother, June regularly. They would often ask
her how she was feeling while they were giggling, and
on the day of Martin's funeral, they returned again asking
to see Martin. So June Martin's mother a mom.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, She's like, what the fuck? Why are you so interested?

Speaker 1 (28:40):
I think she thought maybe they didn't realize that he
wasn't there, because kids sometimes don't have a good concept
of death, and so when they asked to see him,
she said they couldn't because he had died, and Mary replied, oh,
I know he's dead. I want to see him in
his coffin, which is really hard.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
Right that, Mary, you were pulling some high level shenanigans
if you planted the aspirin bottle, But now that is
that's amateur.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
You can't be doing that.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
So then again, Martin's sisters Sharon and Linda, who had
done the interview. They said, at first their mother thought
the girls were just curious, because that makes some sort
of sense, kids just being curious, but she sent them
on their way. July of nineteen sixty eight rolls around,
so it's another month and a half ish and Mary
and Norma are playing at the home of the Howe family.

(29:30):
Mary tells the Hows that Norma strangled Martin and killed him.
But I don't know that anybody really believed that because
it was Norma. But July thirty, first of nineteen sixty eight,
three year old Brian Howe left home to play with
a group of children, his dog and Mary and Norma.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
Wait, is this the cousin again?

Speaker 1 (29:48):
No, this is a different kid. So John Best was
the cousin. He was the one that was injured, but
he survived, Okay. So there was demolition that was happening
in the rat Alley area, and so the kids all
came out to watch the house be torn down, and
soon after the demolition took place, Brian disappeared. It wasn't
until it began to get dark that his parents began
to worry because they all were out playing all the time,

(30:10):
they sent his sister Pat out to search for him.
I know that she was obviously older because he was three,
but I don't remember if it said how old she was.
Pat crossed Mary's path and Mary told her she had
seen Brian playing in a patch of grassland and concrete
blocks that they called the Tin Lizzy, which was just
basically an overgrown dumping ground. Pat didn't believe Brian would

(30:32):
have gone there, so she didn't head out to the
Tin Lizzy. She didn't go try to find him because
she didn't believe Mary. A search party was eventually sent out,
and Brian's body was discovered between two concrete blocks and
the Tin Lizzy, just where Mary said he would be.
So it's probably a good thing that his sister didn't
believe her, because then she didn't discover her little brother,

(30:55):
because that would have been horrific.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
Hold on, this is the second kid she's killed, now,
This is, yes, the second, like two miles because the
first one was in May.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
Once she starts, she completely, she hurts her cousin, and
then everything just like ramps up insanely quickly.

Speaker 4 (31:11):
Can you say escalationion, Yes, especially for a child, especially
for a child, so Officer Peter Moore was the first
on the scene, and he said he remembered standing on
the huge concrete block and looking down on Brian's body.

Speaker 1 (31:25):
He was covered with long grass and weeds in an
attempt to hide the body, and he had a cut
on his nose and froth coming out of his mouth.
Officer Moore thought the injury seemed experimental rather than vicious,
and he immediately thought they were looking for a juvenile.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
I mean, I would say we can have both at
the same time, maybe experimental and vicious.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
Yeah, I would say.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
I would say.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
Some of Brian's hair had been cut off and a
bent a pair of bent scissors were found nearby in
the grass, and there were cuts to his legs and
genitals and appeared the cuts had been made after he
had died, which I think is why he thought they
were more experimental. Uh, not that that makes it any matter,
but this is fucking gnarly though for anybody but a child. Yeah,

(32:14):
it was wild to learn about. Investigators concluded that the
cause of Brian's death was asphyxiation. The corner determined that
his nostrils had been squeezed shut with one hand as
his throat had been gripped with the other dude.

Speaker 3 (32:27):
Choking somebody to death, as far as I know, is
not like an easy task.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, killing somebody eyes.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
You know, in movies and stuff, you know, you see
somebody choke like for thirty seconds and then somebody's.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Dead or whatever.

Speaker 3 (32:42):
But as far as I know, not that I've ever
tried to choke anybody to death, but I don't think
it's super easy.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
I don't think so either. And it's an extremely personal
way to kill someone.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
You're fucking up close and up close.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
You can you know, you're looking on.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
Any ice go out of their eyes type shit.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
Yeah. The corner also determined that the cuts on his
skin appeared to either be the letter M or an N.
They couldn't really determine which just fits with Mary or Norma.
I'm gonna say am. I would say that too. They
were also puncture wounds on his legs. Now. Of course,
in true Mary Bell fashion, she began to pop up
all over and was fascinated with the aftermath of Brian's death.

(33:24):
The lead detective on the case, James Dobson, saw Mary
laughing and rubbing her hands as Brian's coffin left his
family home.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
What like fucking mister Burns or something. Yeah, from the Sibsons. Yes,
cartooner villain style, yesus Christ.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
Dobson said, you know, he obviously got an uneasy feeling
about her and brought her in for questioning, and Norma
was obviously also brought in for questioning because she was
so closely associated with Mary. The girls provided inconsistent statements,
obviously placing them as prime suspects. Mary tried to blame
a boy who'd been playing with Brian earlier in the
day and saying that she saw him hit Brian, but

(34:05):
the boy had an alibi. Mary mentioned a pair of scissors, saying,
I saw him try to cut a cat's tail off
with the scissors, but there was something wrong with them.
One leg was broken or bent. But only the police
knew about the scissors. That was a detail that had
not been made public.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
That upset me. They cut a cat's tail off.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
They did not. She was saying that Brian was trying
to but.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
She probably did at some point. I don't no, not,
I hope not.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
But the thing was the scissors. She was like trying
to explain away the scissors, yet nobody knew about the
scissors except the police, so she was trying to explain
away a details she didn't need to. Basically, Norma had
told police in her interview that Mary had confessed to
her that she had killed Brian. So apparently now you're

(34:52):
dealing with Norma. So her statement changes a little bit.
So in her first statement, she says that Mary was
alone and had killed Brian. And then afterwards, Mary brought
Norma to the Tin Lizzy Sight and Norma tripped in
the long grass, looking down to see Brian laying there.
Mary excitedly told her about what she had done and

(35:13):
ran her fingers across Brian's lips, which is disgusting. She said, quote,
I squeezed his neck and pushed up his lungs. That's
how you kill them.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Fuck man, this story is it's gnarley.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
It's so maney feelings because like what.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
It is that for me, you're like the fuck.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
H I feel like she's eleven years old and she's
had this insanely traumatic upbringing, and it's like how much
can you blame an eleven year old? But also this
is like some spawn of Satan shit, like yes.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yeah, Like it's like you know that she's a product
of her environment, and so you have to remember that.
But also there are other kids who grow up in
horrible situations who don't do this stuff.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
Right, or they at least wait until they're adults to
do that right.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
They're not ten or eleven or yeah it's wild, yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
This is it's yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
So Norma, poor Norma. She ended up giving a second
statement where she confessed that she and Mary had lured
Brian away from his friends. So at first it was
I wasn't there. Mary told me all this, and then
it was just kidding. I was there. Brian actually had
the pair of scissors, he was the one who had
found them and wasn't playing with them.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
I guess, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
Oh no, Norma took them away from him, which normally
you're like, good takes scissors from a three year old?

Speaker 2 (36:36):
But no, no, no.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
Norma said that when they arrived to the spot where
Brian was eventually killed, Mary asked Brian to lift his
head up, and when he did, Mary quote went all funny,
which goes back to her mom and the asphyxiation, and
she was seeing this in her home as well. This
is what we're supposed to do. This is what men
want us to do.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
Oh, it's just like I heard.

Speaker 3 (37:01):
I don't remember where, but I heard that breath play
is popular with the kids. Now, oh, okay, which is
fucked up because don't do that. Well, it's dangerous and
I don't think teenagers should be doing kinky shit.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
I don't know whatever, Call me a prude, that's just me.
You know why I think it is.

Speaker 3 (37:22):
You know where TikTok You know, TikTok has all those
crazy challenges. There was like a suffocate yourself challenge for
a while where some kids fucking killed themselves.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah, oh my god. I mean, I don't get on
TikTok too often, but I haven't made.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
It to the only go to find out about the
awful things that are happening, y'all.

Speaker 1 (37:41):
TikTok is it's unhinged.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
It's dark, but like in a less like in a
different This is a different kind of dark.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yeah, very much so.

Speaker 3 (37:50):
TikTok is more like dark in the sense of like
an episode of Black Mirror, except you're like, oh, that's
life for real right right now. And then this is
dark in the sense of like is this where the
movie the omen got the fucking that that's.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
A really accurate comparison actually of the two things, right,
because they're both dark but in very different ways. Uh
huh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:13):
So we got like a spawn of satan omen type
situation going on.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
Mary is Damien, yes on. So after you know, Mary
quote went all funny, she grasped Brian's neck and wrestled
him to the ground, strangling him. When Mary's hands became
tired because she was eleven, she asked Norman to take over,
and Norma ran away. Norma eventually returned and Mary told

(38:41):
her she had cut his stomach with a razor blade
and hid it beneath one of the heavy concrete blocks,
which Norma took the officers to where that razor blade was.
So Mary thankfully was immediately arrested, and then they obviously
made the connection to Martin Brown's murder. She claimed that
she was the innocent one and that she was afraid

(39:02):
of Norma, and that she tried to pull Norma off
as she killed Brian, but obviously nobody believed her, so
August eighth, nineteen sixty eight, Mary and Norma were charged
with the murders of Brian Howe and Martin Brown. They
sat in cells at the local police station and screamed
at each other between the cells. Once they calmed down

(39:23):
from their tantrums, they discussed how their alter egos would escape,
so they ended up being kept apart before their trial.
Norma was actually sent to a psychiatric hospital, and then
Mary was sent to a detention home. She was allowed
to have visitors, but she did not want her mother
to visit, and when Betty eventually did come, she yelled
and screamed at her for the shame she had brought

(39:44):
on the family, which didn't make matters any better.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
Wait, holda, yes, I am sorry.

Speaker 3 (39:52):
The problem here is the shame that she brought on
the family, not the two children's live that she took.
She's like, for shame? Do you know how embarrassed I am? Like,
are you fucking kidding me? My reputation is a ruin bitch?

Speaker 1 (40:12):
Like what which you know? If you guys remember her
mother is a piece of shit, so her reputation would
have long been ruined before this. Yes, it was definitely
the shame. She was ashamed of Mary, not that she
hurt anyone, but that she was giving the family a
bad name that they already had. Now it was so
good now, what's horrible is some of the staff were

(40:34):
charmed by Mary when she was in there. She presented
an entirely different personality to these people, and they couldn't
put the two pieces together, Like how she was accused
of this crime. She was this perfectly pleasant person.

Speaker 3 (40:48):
I think we need to get somebody on the show
to explain the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath,
because that would be helpful. I've read a lot about it,
but I still get them confused a lot because I'm like, well,
of course you would be able to charm them like that,
because she's right one of those things.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
Yes, a psychiatrist evaluated her and concluded her to be cold, calculating,
and manipulative, stating Mary was willing to lie to get
her own way and escape punishment, and ultimately was found
to be suffering from psychopathic personality disorder. I don't know
if that has a new term today, but that in.

Speaker 3 (41:26):
Oh that's kind of funny though, because I was just like,
I don't know if she's a psychopath or a sociopath.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
Sounds like the expert said psycho.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
That was the nineteen sixty eight terminology, So if it's
different today, I'm not sure what that term would be.
The trial began December fifth, nineteen sixty eight, with prosecutors
stating the motive was solely for the pleasure and excitement
of killing. The judge, a mister Justice Cusack, decided to
waive the girl's right to anonymity, which meant that obviously

(41:55):
the public was going to know who they were. And
it sounds like they had a decently community, so I imagine
they already did know, but maybe they're talking about the
wider public. Mary was labeled by the public as a
bad seed, a freak of nature, and that she had
been born evil, which we have discussed.

Speaker 3 (42:13):
A bad seed sounds little nonchalant or something. It's like, well,
she's a bad.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
Egg, you know.

Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yeah, it reminds me of my kids. They have the
Good Scene Bad Seed books, which they're really funny, but
they're for kids, so that's what it reminds me of. Yes,
the public reacted very strongly. Mary's defense obviously relied on
her upbringing in her personality disorder, so Mary testified for
almost four hours, sending the blame on Norma, and Norma

(42:40):
in her state at the psychiatric hospital, was found to
have the mental age of an eight year old and
was therefore highly susceptible to Mary's influences.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Sounds right.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
On December seventeenth, nineteen sixty eight, the jury began deliberations.
Norma was acquitted of all charges and Mary was found
guilty of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility. Now
this is all very British.

Speaker 2 (43:08):
Hello, British listeners, I'm.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
Like up today, own the legal system. Sorry, that was
a bad accent, Stop you guys. So Mary was sentenced
to be held at her Majesty's pleasure, which is a
British legal term that denotes an indeterminate sentence.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
That's such a weird fucking way to word it, right,
it's my pleasure now to let you go.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
That's will to bring me pleasure.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
Basically, yes, she would be held until it was determined
she no longer posed a threat to the public, which
I don't know how you determined that, because she's already
this much of a threat and she's a child. The
judge described Mary as dangerous and said there was a
quote very grave risk to other children if she is
not closely watched.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
Well, yeah, or people in general. Probably.

Speaker 1 (43:57):
Mary was sent to the Red Bank secure unit and
during her time there, she was the only female among
twenty four other inmates. So in that was in nineteen
children or like I believe it was just just a
bunch of grown men. I would say they were younger, see,
because this is where like when I was listening to
all the different term it was, it's like all these

(44:18):
weird words. I was like, I don't know what this means. Yeah,
I want to say it was like a younger detention
type place because in nineteen seventy six, so when she
was an adult, basically she was actually transferred to a prison.
From there, she and another inmate escaped in nineteen seventy seven,
so she was there for like a year and then
they escaped. They spent several days on the run before

(44:40):
finally being captured. So if you thought it was wild before,
this is going to be wild.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
Now this is where it gets crazy.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Like what Yes, So in nineteen eighty, at the age
of twenty three, Mary Bell was released from prison. She
was just released. She was twenty three. Oh, so she'd
been incarcerated for twelve years.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
Yeah, like half for life more than yeah, which is wild.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
It is wild to think about. Upon her release, though
she was granted anonymity and given a new identity.

Speaker 3 (45:14):
Dude, No, they did that to fucking the Barbie Killer too,
Kenna Barbie.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
Yeah, what's her name? That Carlamulka.

Speaker 3 (45:23):
Oh, that fucking cun They gave her a fucking oh yeah,
changed her name whatever whatever. We know it people have
found out. I don't remember right now, but we know
we do know Carla.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
So this is why I said, it gets so wild
to me. It feels it's wild in a different way.
That she murdered two very small children, severely injured a third.
She escaped from prison, and then three years later they're like, okay, bye,
here you go. However, she was released what they call
on license, which meant that she was technically still serving

(45:56):
her sentence, but was able to do so while living
under strict probation, but she still was not having to
be in prison.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
Under a shiny new name.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
In nineteen eighty four, so the age of twenty seven,
Mary gave birth to her only child, a daughter.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
Carla also had kids.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
Yes, I heard that too, which.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
Is just awful. What the fuck man.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
How do you explain that to your children? Like, oh,
by the way, this is who mommy really is, and
this is what happened.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
I viciously killed children, just like you.

Speaker 1 (46:31):
Come good, mommy, a huck, let's tuck you in. No,
her daughter actually knew nothing about her mother's past until
nineteen ninety eight when reporters discovered their home.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
So how old was she?

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Let's see eighty fourteen, Yes, as.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
If puberty isn't hard enough. Uh huh that is?

Speaker 1 (46:52):
Yes, yeah, so for fourteen years, you know she gets
which I don't know how you keep a secret that
large from your child. I don't know who Mary actually
had worked with author. I don't know if I'm going
to pronounce this correctly, So forgive me get a Serennie
on a book about her life called Cries Unheard, and
this is kind of what drew the press's attention to

(47:16):
try to find her. Mary's benefit from the book sales
caused public outrage. In the book, Mary had spoken about
a lifetime of abuse and the strain relationship with her mother.
She does state that her upbringing does not absolve her
of what she has done, but the major controversy of
the book is that it really focuses on Mary and

(47:37):
not on the victims.

Speaker 3 (47:38):
So basically, the book, instead of trying to give empathy
and tell the voice or the stories of the victims.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
It's just all about.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
Mary and write how hard her life was and kind
of poor Mary.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
Right after they were found at their home, Mary and
her daughter. It doesn't say like who the daughter's father was,
so I assume they didn't live together, but after they
were found and they had to leave their home with
bed sheets over their heads to at least protect the
daughter's identity. I mean, I'm sure you can age up
a picture of Mary and figure out what she looks like.

(48:12):
Mary's daughter had been granted anonymity when she was born,
and it was only supposed to last until she reached eighteen, which,
like what.

Speaker 3 (48:20):
They're like, listen, once you're an adult, fuck off, Okay,
we want nothing to do with.

Speaker 1 (48:25):
You, right, It's like, what's the point protect.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
Your mom who's a child murderer? But you and not
you can figure it out. Sorry, we know you asked
to be here. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
However, on May twenty first, two thousand and three, Mary
won a high court battle to have her own annemy.
I feel like, I'm.

Speaker 3 (48:47):
King God, we have something to lighten this up a
little bit. Yeah, Damn, it's a been dark.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
So she won a high court battle to have her
own anonymity and that of her daughter extended for life.
So her daughter did get get to be anonymous for life. However,
that works okay, But then so did she Yes, she
did as well, which is just now. So now, any
court order that permanently protects the identity of someone is

(49:14):
known as a Mary Bell order. I feel like when
you generally name some kind of law after someone, it's
like in memory of them, you know, like you wanted,
you want to make the change, so you have this law,
like the Amber alert. Yes, like the Amber Alert exactly.
And the Mary Bell order just doesn't sit well.

Speaker 3 (49:30):
Like, hey, when somebody comits a super heinous crime and
then we just let them, you know, like just live
their lives anonymously and awesomely forever'll just call it a
Mary Bell.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
Yes, we're just it's a Mary Bell. That's fine. This
really pissed off Martin Brown's sisters, Sharon and Linda, and
they were completely appalled that she gets to live her
life anonymously. Today, Mary is a sixty six year old
grandmother with a new identity and a new location. After
her release, it seems that she's lived a relatively normal life.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
It's great far as the public knows. Bitches, that's truly
killing people secretly on the side.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
She's got a side business. So Professor David Wilson, a
criminologist that was interviewed in one of the videos I
had watched, said that Mary's story brings hope that children
who commit dreadful crimes can change, though he acknowledges that
it does not bring any relief to the victims' families,
which like, on one hand, it's like, okay, cool, rehabilitation

(50:29):
as possible, But on the other hand, it's like, but
it's so gross.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
I don't know, man, I felt very conflicted. It's a
hard one, Like do you deserve to be punished for
life for something that you did as a child when
your brains not developed whatsoever? And yes, you are a
product of your environment, but also you're probably you know,

(50:54):
nature versus nurtured. Right, he was probably born a psychopath
and then the fucking the environment just really helped that bloom.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
But then it's like, I mean, I'm a lot different,
you know what.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
No, No, When I was eleven, I had a generally
sweet disposition and I was very sensitive. Now I think
I have a generally pretty kind disposition. I mean, fuck
around and find out it can be a real bitch.
But I don't think that I have changed much as
a person, and like my fundamental core my whole life. Like,

(51:28):
obviously I've changed a lot as a person, but I've
always kind of since I was a child, you know,
I was told, oh, you had these traits, you were.

Speaker 1 (51:37):
Your traits kind of stayed similar.

Speaker 3 (51:39):
Yeah, I kind of stayed the same person at heart,
I feel right, So it makes sense. I just don't
know if when you're eleven, if you have a full
lack of remorse about severely injuring and murdering other human beings,
if then one day you just go ooh, yeah, I feel.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
Bad about that shot. Shouldn't have done that.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
We do that. I never found and maybe I didn't
know where to look. But I don't know what sort
of treatment, if any, that she had while she was incarcerated,
because to me, if you're put away at that young
man age, you need some sort of program or some
sort of therapy or help, because how do you like

(52:20):
she all of a sudden just snaps out of it
and is like, Okay, cool, I can have a family. Now, yeah,
that is one of the things that confused me. It's
how she was able to, unless she's hiding it, really well,
live a relatively normal life without hurting small children. It's
an odd thing.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (52:38):
Yes, well, we will end on a note from Martin
Brown's mother, June. I wanted to save this for the
end so that we could hear from a victim. Last
June gave this statement regarding Martin. Quote. Martin was blonde, chubby,
had big, blue, shining eyes. He was a right little villain.
I only had him for four and a half years,

(53:00):
so I remember everything about him. Love came so easy.
It wasn't exactly forgiveness. That's hard, but I came to
think of her as dead, as someone who couldn't hurt
us anymore. I have tried to have a decent life,
and sometimes now I do feel happy, but it's not
the same kind of happiness as I knew before. When
a child dies, you don't get over it. You survive.
The pain doesn't go away, you live with it. End quote.

Speaker 3 (53:21):
Well, happy New year, guys. Help it's gone good for you.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
And on a side note, if any of you want
to listen to this, lovely British man that I have
spoken about. He tells this story. Go into the sources.
It's uh in my document. It's the first YouTube video,
so check that. And I don't know if he does
other videos, but I need to look.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
I have a little crush on this man.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
I do. He's just this elderly British gentleman who I
believe you had like a little beard, and he just
was the sweetest and he was talking about murder and
I was like, yes, I'll listen, yes, yeah, so check
that guy out.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
We do it in a different way. We're not all
cute and British and bearded.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
We're not. And he had good video quality.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
Oh well, good for him. Are you fucking shitting on
my video quality now?

Speaker 1 (54:10):
Like you know, with the with the graphics that appear
and you know, all the footage and yeah, and I
don't know how to do any of that. So props
to that, fella.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
Me me there, so props to that fella.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
Props to that.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Thank you for bringing a little levity at the end there,
because what I do?

Speaker 3 (54:28):
You know, you said, Norma had a look of confusion
on her face, and permanently I just had a look
of like, no, like, please stop talking to me.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
Well, when I first started it, I'm like, oh, this
will be an easy one. It's not a super long story,
but it's pretty interesting. And then as I kept talking,
I was like, oh god, this is this is heavy shore.

Speaker 3 (54:50):
Just a couple of kids killing some other kids. No
big ice, you do as what the fuck?

Speaker 1 (54:56):
I don't remember what I was doing at eleven, but
it wasn't that I.

Speaker 3 (55:00):
It was okay, okay, okay. I thought about this recently.
I was making up dances to the Spice Girls. Yeah,
remember to come.

Speaker 4 (55:10):
Yeah, absolutely, Tonight is the nat when to become one?

Speaker 1 (55:17):
There's a jam.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
Do you know what's it's about?

Speaker 3 (55:20):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (55:20):
But I didn't know that then.

Speaker 3 (55:21):
No, no, no, But I'm wondering what my fucking parents
and my friends were not when we're like okay, pull
out the camcorder.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
We have a dance, and it's like, oh fucking It's
like if.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
They don't ask a question, maybe they don't realize something's
weird here and we just let it go inappropriate.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
Oh my god, I'm so glad I don't have kids,
because I don't know. I'm like, listen, you're listening to
kids bop until the end of time.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
We listened to a lot of Taylor Swift, that's what
we have. We listened to a lot of or Disney songs.
My youngest likes the Peppa Pig songs.

Speaker 3 (55:58):
There are some Disney Sounds tracks that I mean, bop
after Bob Mowana, Are you kidding me?

Speaker 1 (56:04):
Moana Canto, although Trolls is I think that's Petrols as DreamWorks,
but it is still good whatever, great soundtrack, and Canto
is my fave.

Speaker 3 (56:13):
I never saw that because I didn't like the animation style,
I believe or maybe that was Coco one of them.
The way that the noses were illustrated really bothered me.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
Interesting, it gave me.

Speaker 3 (56:25):
Like old like Ren and Stimsey, or gave me like
old Remember in the Nickelodeon shows.

Speaker 1 (56:32):
Yeah, like the were they're real like bulbous.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
Yes, they would have the big red, bulbous nose. What
fucking show was that?

Speaker 1 (56:39):
There were a lot of them that had that.

Speaker 3 (56:41):
Okay, so I think it's Cocoa. They do a similar
animation style and it just grossed me out. It bothered me,
and I couldn't watch it. But I should watch in Canto,
you should. I don't have a ten year old or
any child of any sort of one.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
But you see inside Out too.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
I have not seen that. The first one destroyed me,
so I haven't watched the second one yet.

Speaker 3 (57:02):
It's one of my favorite the first one. They're good,
one of my favorite movies of all time. But yeah,
it's it's emotional. I love when they mix up the
facts and opinions and they're like, oh, don't worry.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
That happens all the time. I've seen it a lot. Okay,
so so yeah, so yes you do, the beginning of the.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
Go watch in canto. Okay, have a happy New Year.
And that was real ass fuck.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
And real fucked up. See you guys next week. By
fucked up, so fucked up.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
It's just

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