Decoding Heart Rate Variability: The Future of Health with Greg Elliott

Episode Transcript
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Dai Manuel (00:08):
Welcome back to the 2% Solution Podcast.
I'm your host, I'm Manuel, andtoday I'm really excited to
introduce not only a good friendof mine, but also just a
phenomenal guest, because he'sjust a great resource of all
things health, well-being andmindset.
Our guest today is Greg Elliott, an exercise physiologist,
osteopath and integrative healthexpert, pushing the boundaries

(00:32):
of personalized wellness.
Now, greg's not your typicalhealth practitioner.
He's harnessing the power ofheart rate variability HRV is
the acronym and healthtechnologies to detect
physiological changes before thesymptoms even appear.
Super cool.
You've heard me on lots of pastepisodes talking about HRV being

(00:53):
the biometric to rule them all.
Yeah, sort of my littlethrowback to Lord of the Rings
and Tolkien lore, but quiteliterally, if you had all those
rings, we know there's one ringto rule them all.
Well, when it comes to yourbiometrics, this one metric
heart rate variability holysmokes, it's the one to track.
Now here's the real kicker.
Greg believes that the key toextending your health span.

(01:16):
Now, health span is not thesame as lifespan.
Lifespan is sort of how long welive.
Health span is how long we live, but live healthily.
So living longer, healthier andmore vitality.
And he believes that it lies inyour ability to understand and
use your body's data.
So, whether you're a biohacker,a fitness enthusiast, someone
just looking to take control ofyour health, this episode's

(01:38):
packed with insights you won'tfind anywhere else.
Buckle up, because we're aboutto challenge everything you
thought you knew about wellness.
Welcome back to 2% SolutionPodcast.
As I said in the introduction,we got an amazing guest today.
This is someone that I've knownfor a lot of years.
We've got a lot of mutualfriends in the fitness and
wellness industries, not only inWestern Canada but gosh all

(02:01):
over the place, as we've beengetting to know each other
better over these last couple ofyears, as we've been working
together on projects and somecool things.
But Greg Elliott is honestly oneof the people that introduced
me to the concept of HRV, andheart rate variability has been
a game changer for me, and soI'm super honored to have you

(02:21):
here today, greg, especially tobe able to pick your big brain
on heart rate variability, butalso all the other cool things
that all of us people are doingnot enough of to create the
positive changes that we want tomake.
Welcome to the show.

Greg Elliott (02:32):
This is awesome, you know, with your enthusiasm
and like just your willingnessto give out information to as
many people as possible to getpeople back healthy and active
is so inspirational.
I absolutely love it.
So, obviously, all the workyou've done congrats up to this
point.
I hope you can and keep goingforward with everything.

Dai Manuel (02:50):
Thanks, man.
I really appreciate that.
And listen, dude, it's a workin progress, man, but I've
watched everything that you'redoing, too, online, and after
these last couple of years of usworking on and off together, I
got to commend you.
You, man, you you've been,you've done some really cool
things.
You've spoken at some reallycool events, like especially in

(03:11):
the longevity space, you know.
And so, before we dive in todayand actually this is sort of
off the cuff, but, um, what isit that you're most excited
about right now?
Just the health and wellnessindustries period.
Like what, what's got youexcited?
Because you've been apractitioner in this space for a
long time, like me, we're OGs,right, we're.
We're not original gangsters,we're old guys and, uh, as OGs

(03:33):
in this space, like what is itthat's got you excited today?

Yeah, so there's two things actually.
That's kind of super exciting,you know where I think the
knowledge of understanding ofthe amount of impact that people
have within their own hands toimpact their health and
well-being.
I think their understanding ofthere's a lot more of control
that I have.
It's not so much my doctor hasto do it or this person has to
do is a lot of stuff can be doneon my own.
And that knowledge andunderstanding and as you get

(03:57):
people now into to my practiceor dealing people online, people
are significantly more educatedabout what's going on with
health and well-being.
So, to be they're really a partof the process, not just being a
bystander.
So they're very active in theircare, which is absolutely
phenomenal.
And something we'll dive into alittle bit today is the second
part.
Is this the accessibility ofhigh quality scientific data
that can be done literally, haveyou know, from a consumer basis

(04:19):
.
You don't need a expensivelaboratory, you don't need to
see a medical doctor to get veryhigh quality health related
data that you really use toimpact your health and
well-being.

Dai Manuel (04:33):
So those are two of the big things that I see is is
makes me really excited aboutthe future.
I love it.
I love it.
Well, we're going to have somespace to talk about.
You got some really coolprojects on the horizon.
I'd love to talk about that.
We'll talk about that closer tothe end today, because that
really is, and everyone you'regoing to like this, because
we've got some pretty cool stuffcoming out.
But he's also got some greatstuff online which I'd love to
be able to turn all of you on to, especially if you really like

(04:54):
what we talked about today.
You definitely want to sync upwith Greg on his socials and
then some Don't worry, it's allin the show notes.
So just remember, click on theshow notes.
You got all Greg's contact infothere.
Greg, you know, before we getin, because we do talk about
routine a lot and you know theimportance of habits.
I mean it's whatever we doregularly ultimately creates the
results that we get toexperience, you know, and if we

(05:17):
don't like what we'reexperiencing, we should look at
what we're doing to create theresult, right?
Or not doing, and I like to talkto you because I know you're
also someone that's a bigproponent for starting the day
right.
What we do when we first wakeup sets the tone for the whole
day, and I want to knowselfishly what does your morning
routine?

look like man.
It's relatively consistent overthe years.
Ever since college it's beenwhat?
20 years now since being incollege and 15 years of being
from there, but it's beenrelatively consistent.
I've always been a morningperson.
You know used to be six o'clockand then used to be five
o'clock when I started work andnow with kids I got to four
o'clock.
So usually my alarm is at fouro'clock in the morning, getting

(05:55):
up, which most people think thatI'm crazy for doing that.
But I just want to be able tomake sure that I get my morning
routine kind of set up and beable to ready to go.
So you know, what I do is is Itypically will get up and I have
a list of either podcasts orlectures.
I want to be able to listeninto things.
I kind of like subconsciously,kind of just be able to to go
through my learning kind of hourand during that time I also
kind of be able to meditate andrelax and kind of like get in

(06:19):
touch with my nervous system.
I do some move and so threethings essentially I do within
the first 30 to 45 minutes is beable to educate myself, get my
body moving a little bit and beable to get in touch with my
body, my nervous system.
It's kind of the first thingsthat I do and then usually goes
into my workout, whatever thatmay be, for the day where your
cardiovascular or strengthtraining.
I'm luckily enough to be ableto set up a nice kind of home

(06:39):
gym so I don't have to goanywhere to go do it, so I'm
able to be able to kind of havea suite of things to be able to
go do at that standpoint andthen right after that you
started getting into my morningroutine, which you know get the
lunch ready for the kids, get mybreakfast ready set for my wife
and be able to kind of go fromthere.
But that seems to be prettydarn consistent that my morning
routine selfishly for the firsttime with two hours in the

(07:00):
morning, is dedicated to me, myoverall, not only physical
well-being, but my mentalwell-being too.

Dai Manuel (07:08):
I mean that's, that's impressive.
Also, I appreciate the the factthat you get up at four, man,
cause I, you know people alwaysask me why'd you get up at that
time, man.
Like, I just wake up without analarm between four and four 30.
That's just like it's.
It's a curse, like even lastnight I was up to like 11 30.

(07:28):
Last night we had late toast,masters meeting and then just
stuff afterwards helping breathewith a couple days, like it was
just it was a late night for me.
Normally I'm in bed, you know,asleep by night.
So nine to four is pretty good.
You know, I'm getting usually agood solid seven hours, maybe a
little bit more, uh, but lastnight, dude, it was like, oh, I
just wanted to sleep more, but Imean, four o'clock rolled
around my eyes, I couldn't getback to sleep, it drove me nuts.
So I'm, you know, I've beenkind of dragging a little bit
this morning.
My morning routine wasn't as asdiced as yours and what do?

(07:51):
you say to people that are likegosh, I don't have time for two
hours every morning for myself.
Yeah, I mean, that does soundlike a lot.

Right, it does sound like a lot absolutely
right, and that's the thing isis I value that time and I try
to.
I and I prioritize that Right.
And so to a degree, you know,when people don't have that,
their health and wellbeing maynot be as as a big of a priority
as they may claim that it willbe right.
If really you're concernedabout health and wellbeing and
you see what it actually takesin order to be able to do that,
that's a big, large chunk ofyour life.

(08:18):
To be able to do that Things,other things have to sacrifice,
right.
Whether it's not having thatglass of wine and, you know,
staying up a little bit laterand watching that show, or
whatever it necessarily may be,you have to be able to sacrifice
those things in order for to beable to take care of yourself.
So when people say that to me,you start to go down the road of
understanding okay, well, whatare your values Like?
What are your values above that?

(08:39):
Like, walk me through your day,walk me through your evening
and see where these thingssituate and be able to say, hey,
you may not have two hours, butyou know what's, you know
here's we have 30 minutes or 15minutes or do something to be
able to kind of start thatprocess and because you know, as
you know, the hardest thing foreverybody is getting started
right and be able to get, beable to remove that barrier, to

(09:00):
start that and get the routine.
If I can't do something at theend of the morning, that I can't
wait to the next day to startto be able to get back to my
routine again, I'll be able togo work out and do that.
It's like you, you long for it.

Dai Manuel (09:11):
So it's about creating those very small little
uh routines that you can dothrough the, through the day,
wherever you start to be able tounderstand of of how can you
deprioritize something else toprioritize your health oh man,
those are like all little, uhpearls of wisdom there, you know
, and I and I really doappreciate just the way that you
deliver it to greg, becauseyou're just so matter-of-factly

(09:35):
but but very accepting at thesame time.
Like I, I never feel likethere's ever any judgment from
you.

It's just like this is just the way it is and
either you don't, it's okay,like I just, but I love that
yeah, and that's but the youstart to be able to lay the, lay
the land over it.
So you know, people havecertain expectations like what
are your goals right and are youdoing the things to be able to
achieve that?
And so you know, saying youcan't find a certain amount of
time, people do those thingslike well, then you won't be
able to achieve the goal so youwant to be able to set out, to

(10:01):
achieve.
So we find different goals.
Well, I don't want to do thatgoal Right, it's like that's not
good enough.
Well, then we have to have adeeper conversation.
You know, what are we going todo with what's going on?
Like you know, obviously, your,your lab works all out of
control.
Right, you're in talks about.

(10:22):
You know there, understandwhether it's small steps or big
steps, and be able to have thatright guide that works within
you to making sure that youachieve the actual goal that you
want people to achieve.

Dai Manuel (10:33):
I'm glad that we sort of segued naturally to this
goal-setting conversation,because this is where the data
is invaluable.
This is something that wehaven't had access, not as
smoothly and easily and asreadily available as it is today
.
It's never been more accessible.
You know the data, thescientific data, what's going on
in our bodies, and I knowyou're a huge data head.

(10:53):
I don't even know how manydevices you're wearing today.

Only one right now .
Only one right now.

Dai Manuel (10:59):
I remember seeing Greg one day we were at a mutual
Christmas party like last year,and Greg rocks up and he's got
like five different devices.
He's testing them.
All right, he's testing.
We were part of a health techstartup together and we had to
test all the, so Greg was thetester man Wearing all five of
those.
That was awesome, dude.

That was too much.

Dai Manuel (11:19):
Yeah right, I was going to say way to go, iron man
, but anyways, thank you forthose insights because we're
going to tie a bow on this alittle bit later everybody.
But I thought it was importantto establish this morning
routine, the ritual right,because I still believe that
morning's the easiest time toget stuff done for ourselves and
, as most financial planners andadvisors and the financial

(11:40):
gurus that are there, theyalways talk about, one of the
biggest things to build wealthis you got to pay yourself first
, and I love that's really whatyou're also saying, greg is you
got to start your day by payingyourself first, you know, but
with your health, right?
Like it's funny, I surveyed.
So every time I do a coach, aclass, a CrossFit class or a
group fitness class, I always doan icebreaker at the beginning.

(12:01):
Ask a question, I get everybodyto give an answer.
Yesterday's question okay, youknow what.
What do you want most?
Health, wealth or happiness?
The answers that I got the mostof, do you know which ones?
They work.
It was actually happiness andhealth which I was really happy
about.

(12:21):
A few people said well, you know, they're like I could go buy
happiness and I could go buy myhealth back, and the funny thing
is is I've heard that before,but it doesn't work as smoothly
as people believe it to be rightLike.
The longer we go without doingsomething, the worse the
problems can become.
The harder to write that shipmight become as well.
And and I think that's where Ilike to take the conversation

(12:41):
now, because you really helppeople better understand not
only the data that they now canhave access to right in their
home, but actually how toimplement the data, to see the
changes through, and I thinkthat's where there's that huge
gap right now, and I know we'vetalked about this quite
extensively that there's this,the idea of knowing, and then
the idea of doing something tochange those numbers.

(13:02):
There's there's a disconnect.
Right, it's not happening.
People are love all thesedevices.
They talk about X amount ofsteps today.
Okay, great, at least they gotan awareness around movement,
but there's so much more thanthat, and so I'd like to talk to
you about the one metric torule them all heart rate
variability, yeah, and for allmy geek friends out there, you
know I'm a, I am a nerd and Ilike fantasy and geek, and so,

(13:24):
yeah, the one ring to rule themall.
You know the one metric to rulethem all?
Yeah, I had to explain myselfthere because I know there's
people like what are you talkingabout, dude?
Anyways, heart rate variability, greg, take it away.
What the heck is HRV?

Yeah, most people confuse heart rate variability
and heart rate.
So I remember, you know, backwhen I first would lecture about
this in various conferences,where you know people it's like,
oh, I know heart ratevariability and it's like it's
like heart rate right and it'slike well, kind of.
And so they have an associationwhere they can they understand
what heart rate is Everyone'sseeing.
You know 150 beats per minuteor you know 60 beats per minute.
They have an idea of what thatis.

(13:57):
So heart rate variability goesa little bit deeper.
And so, dai, how I explain thisis you and I can have a resting
heart rate of, say, 60 beatsper minute, right, where my
heart rate will say, beats likea metronome.
So if you look at the time inbetween each beat that happens
over that minute, it's on thesecond, every single second.
It's very consistent when youmay have a heart rate that
fluctuates, where it kind ofspeeds up and then slows down.

(14:18):
So if you look at the time, thetime goes smaller and then
bigger and then smaller and thenbigger in between each beat.
What people can intuitivelythink of saying, oh well,
consistency is good, you wantthat kind of consistent heart
rate.
So low variability is good,where it's actually the opposite
.
So what we know throughresearch is that overall health

(14:39):
and well-being, both from aphysical and a mental state, you
actually want to have morevariability of your heart rate.
So this is again verycounterintuitive what you think.
Well, that's odd.
But what this ties into, in thegrand scheme of things, the
more variability you have inyour heart rate, the better you
can adapt to all forms of stress.
We can dive into some of thescience, but in the grand scheme

(15:01):
of things, that's what it boilsdown to is the higher amount of
variability you have in aresting part rate.
You can deal with stress frommental stress, physical stress,
emotional stress significantlybetter.

Dai Manuel (15:16):
I love it.
So it really is that windowinto our nervous system, isn't
it In a big way?
But understanding how to usethat number, I think that's
where there might be challenges,because there's a huge variety
of numbers.
Right, it is very subjective.
I find the numbers that peopleget as well.
So could you speak to that alittle bit, Because I also know
it's device dependent.

(15:36):
Some people have different HRVmeasurements and how they're
getting to that number.
So I know there is a lot ofconfusion around that,
especially when people startcomparing notes on their HRV.
I found myself, you know,having conversations with other
fitness friends and we starttalking about it and they're
wearing a different device, sotheir number it just.
We know we're having the sameconversation, but what we're

(15:57):
reporting doesn't computebecause we're both measuring
differently, you know, and soI'd love to hear your thoughts
on that and just maybe give ussome better clarity on how this
works or how do we start usingthis?

yeah, so.
So majority of devices now, I'dsay, are kind of based on on
wearable technology.
So this kind of continuousmonitor, whether it's from an
apple watch or a boot band or anaura ring or whatever
necessarily may be where it's,can you kind of get this, you
know this, this passive kind ofcapture, you know, know,
throughout the day?
Primarily, I would say there'sone statistic that majority of
these devices measure is calledroot mean square of successive

(16:30):
differences.
You don't necessarily need toknow the equation I don't know
it off the top of my head, butit is.
It just know that.
That's the.
When you see any type ofresearch or looking at a
specific HRV number, if you seeRMSSD beside a value, that's
typically what you would see.
Apple watches, they have ameasure called SDNN which is a
little bit different.
So that's why sometimes Applewatches are a little bit

(16:51):
different than most otherwearable products.
But that seems to happen.
And the reason why sometimesnumbers are different between
devices, it depends on theircapture rate.
Some does a continuous measurewhere every single beat is
captured.
Other captures every fiveminutes, some every ten minutes,
and so it varies significantlybecause it's different captures

(17:12):
and what we kind of when you seean HRV number through the day.
That's typically what we call anocturnal capture.
So when the wearable or thetechnology determines that you
are sleeping, it startsmeasuring that over that
nighttime.
And when you wake sleeping, itstarts measuring that over that
nighttime and when you wake upit stops that capture.
So it averages that metric overthat time, and even that can
change.
Some devices only take the lasthour, some take the entire

(17:34):
night, some show averages, someshow the highest value.
So it all depends on manydifferent things, and so I'd say
the most important thing aboutthese wearables is keeping
consistent with the wearablethat you do have and that is
your value.
Don't compare against someoneelse's device or one device to
the other.
If you have two different ones,which I, yeah, I fall victim to
uh multiple times, um, but themain thing is you keep it

(17:56):
consistent with your device andyou you use that as your HRE
metric more than uh thananything else.

Dai Manuel (18:02):
I love that.
Thank you for that explanation.
That makes a lot more sense.
And I just got to ask you causeI know you've tested pretty
much all of the most currentdevices Like have you found that
any do a better job than others?
Specifically around this metric.
Like again, I I know all ofthem are pretty good at what
they do Like when, when youstart spending anywhere from
like 200 bucks and up, you'regetting some pretty good quality

(18:24):
based on.
Today's technology wasaccessible, so I think it's
pretty safe, you know.
but I still notice there's a bigdifference and what you just
said, I didn't know that therewas such a difference in
algorithmic, like how they usethe their own internal
technology and algorithms tocalculate the numbers.
I didn't realize there was sucha difference in a variety of
that.
So what are your thoughts onthat, Like what has been your,

(18:47):
in your opinion, the bestdevices that you've found so far
?

So the devices with the wearable technology,
they use a light-based sensor,right.
So when you see the green lighton the Apple Watch, or the red
light as well, they kind of usethese light-based sensors to
detect the blood flow goingthrough the vessel.
So these lights kind of sensedown and see when the pulse is
coming through and they're usingthat as their kind of metric.
So whatever can necessarilykeep your motion down, right.

(19:14):
So, for instance, something onthe wrist if you start to be
able to flex or extend yourwrist and there's kind of
there's space in between orthere's light that kind of gets
in or there's a gap, you can getsome some funky numbers when it
comes in into that.
So something that one is themost important that limits the
motion.
So typically what this is isthat the most accurate is ones
that are kind of closest to theskin, that aren't susceptible to

(19:35):
motion.
So that's where ring-basedwearables seem to perform a
little bit better.
Based upon that.
That's one of the biggestthings.
It's not that wrist art are notgreat, they're good as well,
but it seems that there's a lotmore instances of motion
artifact.
And when moving around, say inbed or in activity or whatever,
necessity may be that it kind ofgets into there.
So the accuracy can decreasedepending on the individual.

(19:56):
So there's more variability inthe accuracy of wrist-based
wearable devices versus morering-based wearable devices.

Dai Manuel (20:03):
The gold standard would be yeah, what is the gold
standard?
I'd like to hear that.

The gold standard would be more of an electrical
signal.
So this would be like you'veseen those Holter monitors
people wear when you go to thedoctor.
You kind of get a bunch ofthose pads and so you get the
electrical activity of the heart.
But obviously those devices aresignificantly more expensive.
They're more.
You know, it's hard to wearthem all day and so there's a
lot less use of that.
From a consumer standpoint wouldbe the gold standard, because

(20:27):
it doesn't necessarily matterwhere you are.
As long as you can pick up thatelectrical signal you can move
around and do all types of stuff.
So it's usually quite accurate.
But from a consumer standpoint,from a business standpoint, it
seems to be that people want oneof these watches and rings in
that standpoint to besignificantly easier to wear all
day and kind of the last pieceof that one with the validity
side are things that don't havea interface or a lot of

(20:51):
usability of the device itself.
So the more interactive you doyou can have with the wearable
itself, typically you cannothave the same type of data
quality right or sensing,because there's battery drain
through the wearable itself andyour interaction with it will
then cause the battery to gosignificantly lower.

(21:14):
So if you have the same kind ofquality sensors you would have,
say, in these higher qualitywearables like Oura, ring or
Whoop, to a degree it seems thatthe battery life would be
significantly lower when itcomes to like Apple Watches or
Garmin's, because you have thatinterface and that battery drain
.
When the technology gets to thepoint where those batteries can

(21:34):
last a lot longer, you don'thave to charge them every day or
every few hours.
Then we can be able to comparea little bit more closely.

Dai Manuel (21:42):
You're right, because I know that's the big
challenge with adherence, as wenoticed in the health tech
startup that we were a part of.
You know, like the devices thatwe were using initially, you
know, during the testing phase,is like, yeah, you know it was
funny, someone, they forgot tocharge that.
You know, after their night'suse, come the next night they
wouldn't have it on right orthey forget it in the charger,

(22:02):
like it.
Just it was really hard tocreate that habit and
consistency, you know,especially if you have that disc
well, pardon the pun, but adisc.

Yeah, and back in the day when people used to have
they have to have heart ratestraps to heart rate variability
before the wearables.

Dai Manuel (22:16):
10 years ago.
That's all I did with myclients.
I got them to get a T31 strapfrom Polar app from polar and
and then use, uh an app on thephone.
Yeah, there was an HRV appwhich, uh, he actually, I think
I learned about the app throughyou was the one I used for the
longest time and, uh, that's all.
I had my clients do everything.
First thing in the morning,just test your resting heart
rate and your HRV.
That was it, you know.

Yeah, the difficulty with that is it's
came to a point of like, oh, Isee you missed a couple of days.
Like, oh yeah, I went out acouple of nights, I just didn't
do morning and it's just likeand that's when you have to test
it though Exactly, especiallyafter a night.

Dai Manuel (22:47):
I want those numbers , I need to know those things
right.

So this is where some of the passive capture
where it comes to a degree thatyes, it's not as valid when it
comes to a degree you kind ofcreate that consistency in
people and be able to see thesevalues of like hey, this is what
your choices actually mean inregards to your physiology and

(23:10):
to your nervous system.

Dai Manuel (23:12):
I was going to say, like I really love the idea of
the ring, like the aura, but Itrain so frequently.
It's that's the data I alsoreally want.
You know, as someone that'sreally into his fitness, my
health, I like seeing the datafrom my workouts.
I I really enjoy that,especially if it's been a longer
format workout.

(23:32):
I can see how did my heart rate, do you know, was it
inconsistent?
Where did I?
Oh, there was that mountain.
I had to go up.
Oh yeah, there we go.
You know what I mean.
Like I I like looking at thatdad, like I don't know, I just I
really enjoy it.
But I can also correlate a lotof things to the workout I did
and you know, for I just I enjoythat and I haven't been able to
find a ring I can wear andtrain with.
Is there any out there yet?
Do you know of any?

No, not that it can be able to train with, and
that's the thing is.
I get the and, as every kind ofperson you know says, in you
know any type of field, theykind of go.
Well, it depends.

Dai Manuel (24:06):
Yeah.

And so it depends on many different things, like
what are you using it for, right?
And so, for instance, if I hadan individual that loved hiking,
that was their main kind ofthing.
They want to kind of go up andthey need to know their
elevation and that type of stuff.
It's like, okay, well, you know, the typical wearables aren't

(24:29):
the best because you need to beable to track different things
and have integrations with other.
So it's like, well, a garmentwould be better for that
standpoint.
Yes, you may be losing a littlebit of data quality from a
harvey variability perspective,but you can capture all the
elevation and harvey during andyou can pair your harvest stuff
to get it accurate, harvey like.
So it depends on what you'redoing and obviously, when it
comes to more of the crossfit,it seems whoop to be seems Whoop
to be the best one for thoseindividuals because it's a very
reusable band, it's prettystretchy, you can charge and

(24:50):
keep it on your wrist, sothere's many different benefits
and so it depends on what you'relooking for.
So, in my shoes, my main thingis obviously, when it comes to
more purely health-related stuffrather than physical
performance, orring seems to bethe one that I like the best
just because of that.
That's the clientele that I seeright.
So it depends on where you are,because they're all of benefit

(25:14):
in many different reasons.
To me, it's just that you knowthe Oura Ring pairs a lot with
what I do within the clinic formy population base, so then
that's the one that I recommend.
But again, it all depends onthe individual, what their
outcomes are, what their goalsare and what they're going to
use it for.

Dai Manuel (25:29):
It's good insight.
I really appreciate that.
Thank you, and yeah, I've been,so I've narrowed it between
because my Apple watch kickedthe bucket.
Apple, if you're listening tothis, I'm very disappointed in
you.
I'm just saying that.
I'm putting that on the record,but I won't get into it.
I don't want to use this as aplatform to bag on Apple,
because everything I use isApple, but my fricking watch
isn't anymore.
Anyways, it kicked the bucketafter literally one year and two

(25:54):
days Wow.
I didn't get the extendedwarranty.
I'm an idiot, you know so, andthey wouldn't give me any
leniency.
Anyways, I'm debating betweenthe aura and the whoop right now
, like those are sort of my twochoices and I'm leaning more to
the whoop because of thetraining element and I've got
some friends that I train withthat also wear that, and also a
mutual friend of ours, spencer.
You know he swears by the whoopand for those that remember

(26:15):
Spencer, he was on an earlierepisode in HRV and Greg and him
know each other, practitionersat heart, they all seem to know
each other here in Vancouver.
So it's, I'm not part of thatinner club yet, but I'll get in
there eventually.
But, greg, I want to ask youreal quick, because I'm sure
there's people listening to thisthat are like, yeah, whatever,
it's a fad, the data is notaccurate, it's erroneous, like

(26:39):
snake oil, you know, like whatdo you say to that?

Well, you know, like what do you say to that?
Well, this has been around nowsince the 50s when it comes to
the space program.
I mean, this is heavily,heavily, heavily researched in
regards to its validity and intowhat's going on.
It's just the the confusion fora long period of time.
Uh well, there's a few thingsthat kind of slowed us
progression.
One is the fact you needexpensive you know expensive
equipment to be able to measureit from a scientifically valid
standpoint.
Right, you need ecgs at thatpoint, or it was thousands and
thousands of dollars.

(27:06):
So they didn't necessarily seethe application to the general
consumer, right.
So that was one of the biggestlimitations from there.
The second was the fact thatdisagreement of what the numbers
actually meant.
And so when you looked at a lotof the early data, some people
were calculating the frequencydomain.
The frequency domain is a grandscheme of things.
It looks at the wave kind of upand down of this pattern of the

(27:29):
heart rates and it's more thevisualization and the amount of
frequency that these heartbeatsoccur, rather than what they
call time domain, whicheverything's based on you know
the milliseconds and time, andand then they had, you know,
point care plots which had to dowith a graph, and so there's
many ways that people calculatedheart rate variability.
There wasn't one standardmetric, like it wasn wasn't like
blood pressure, which is likewe know what that is.
It's, you know, millimeters ofmercury, 120 over 80.

(27:49):
Like everyone had agreement,there's many ways probably they
can do measure blood pressure,but that's the one in every.
All the research is based uponthat.
So we got really confusing fora very long period of time is
that, you know, some data justonly measured these ones and
some only measured those ones,and so it was a little bit all
over the place.
And so, as the accessibility topeople to get this data from a,

(28:09):
you know, a valid standpointcame out when it comes with
heart rate straps, with polarkind of led the way with that Um
, it really started to be ableto take off at a lot of the
communities.
So this is kind of like the.
The late nineties is reallywhen it started to be able to
take off.
In sports, where you talk aboutthe leading organizations over
in Europe and Australia, when itcomes to soccer and rugby, you

(28:31):
were using this in the 90s andbe able to capture this and they
still do to this day of howmuch value it actually is, and
now we're starting to see moreof a clinical standpoint I
talked about a year ago in NewYork at the Functional Medicine
Integrative Healthcare Symposium, and there's the hoo-hoo of
functional medicine.
I'd probably say 50% of thedoctors had an aura ring on

(28:51):
Right and they use it withintheir clinical practice of
what's going on, and so it's notwoo-hoo.
It's been around for a verylong period of time.

Dai Manuel (28:58):
It's here to stay, and to me and I'll say this over
and over again- I me, and I'llsay this over and over again I
don't know a more importantbiometric that you can measure
to be able to impact your health, your performance and your
longevity.

Oh dear, I'm with authority.
That was so good.
Well, the big thing, the bigthing for me, is the fact I mean
, there are phenomenal markersout there.
The look at this.
You know.
People talk about all thecertain blood markers or the
genetic tests, or there's youDEXA scans with, like those
things.
I'm like, well, how often areyou doing those things?

Dai Manuel (29:28):
I do my DEXA scan twice a year, every six months.

Right, and so I always get examples.
Great, there's some bloodmarkers.
Great, when are you recheckingthose blood markers that are
different?
Three months at the earliest,like what happens, what's
actually happening and knowing.
So the value of HRV is the factthat it's non-invasive, right,
you don't need to prick yourselfor do whatever it may be.
It's non-invasive, you cancapture it.
It's continuous.
We can get a measure all thetime, and we're getting to the

(29:53):
point where it's now ascientifically valid in regards
to these numbers, like I don'tknow one that people can do and
track on a daily basis.

Dai Manuel (29:59):
It's going to be oh, it's so true, man, and actually
this is perfect for us to segue, because story time, everybody
story time.
Okay, because, rick, you gotsome great stories, uh,
especially around where youreally became, where this belief
came from right.
Like you have a very strongbelief around hrv and I I love

(30:21):
it because I feel the same way.
I don't have as much historywith it as you do, but there
were obviously, there was aturning point there where you're
like, oh my gosh, I'm going allin on this metric and I know it
has to do with some of theclients that you've also
supported through some hugechange, but it's because you
weren't able to monitor certainmetrics and make certain
recommendations based on thosemetrics.
So tell us about this, becauseI think this is really what

(30:44):
solidifies everything we've beentalking about.
This is the data in action andwhat happens when you get
somebody that knows how todecipher that data, how quickly
change is going to happen.
So, I love, let's tell somestories.

Yeah, so the first big story that I had was when I
first started getting into itin 2013,.
Right, so a little bit of mymaster's thesis was involved in
non-invasive ways of measuringheart function.
Hrv was a part of that.
It wasn't in my thesis, but itwas obviously something I
researched and realizing that itwas kind of utilized in more of
a sports performance realm.
And I met with Joel Jamesondown in Spokane, washington, at

(31:20):
that point.
He's a strength conditioningcoach and one of the people that
brought HRV over to NorthAmerica, and so I met with him
and started using his systemwith a lot of individuals there
and it was just my friends andwe started tracking it, and so
at that point, a lot of it wasnot necessarily more health
related in regards to myunderstanding.
There was some, but it was morelike hey, we're going this

(31:42):
performance route now.
So I was like OK, well, I'lltalk about, you know, how we
could regulate training programsand all that.
And one of the eye-openingthings was an individual came in
one morning and she goes hey,my HRV is really, really low
today.
Everything was fine, I had agood workout, everything was
great, and so I was like why ismy HRV low.
I'm like I don't know, did yousleep wrong?

(32:04):
Nope.
Did you eat anything different?
Nope.
More training?
Nope.
Okay, maybe you're training toomuch?
No, I had a couple off days, sonothing from a performance
standpoint made sense.
I'm like, well, this is reallyodd.
It was like 50% lower than hertypical value.

Dai Manuel (32:17):
Ooh, that's a big difference.

Yeah, big time.
And so I saw her really earlyin the morning it's like six
o'clock in the morning andthrough the day she came to me
and she's like I'm so sick Ihave to go home.
Like I was like what, like,what do you mean?
Like, yeah, like, and she wentoff.
I'm like, well, how is the?
How is hrv connected with that?
Like, what is actuallyhappening?
Was that a part of what's goingon?
And that let me down the rabbithole of like a lot of the

(32:40):
research fundamentally was wasto do with more health related
stuff.
And I'm like, well, that's odd.
And you started to get into thewhole heart math side of things
, but understanding of yournervous system regulation and
going back and forth.
I started on my gosh, like Mike, from the complexity standpoint
, like I don't know, like uh, uh, you know a poor health outcome

(33:01):
.
That's amazing.
And so I started to dive intousing heartbeat variability in a
lot of different scenarios andpeople and they got a lot of
different stories of how itnecessarily impacted.
So, like you know, some of thereally quickly off the top of my
head, some of the stories waswe actually had an individual
that lower heartbeat variabilityactually correlated with more
suicidal ideation.
So when she woke up to her,heartbeat variability was lower.

(33:22):
We realized that she needed tohave an intervention that moment
in regards to making sure shesets a day in a more positive
mindset.
Right, such an amazing aspect.
We had another person that hadchronic fatigue syndrome and
every single test under the suncame back absolutely completely
clean and positive.
Heart rate variability was thefirst one that predicted
anything was wrong and if youknow anything to do with

(33:48):
heartbeat variability numbers,his heartbeat variability
average was 20.
Whoa, as a healthy individualin his 40s and he's like, this
is the first number that gave meanything that is actually
something wrong with me.
So he had that validation thatno, it's not just me, my body is
going through something.
And to be able to address thoseareas and to the point, I mean
all the stories that can gothrough in regards to social
health when it comes to thepandemic and measure heartbeat

(34:09):
variability and what that did inregards to people and finally
starting to be able to kind ofcome out of it a little bit.
It's to me it's such a completebiomarker that that looks at
all factors for biological,psychological and social, even
even the spiritual nature ofindividuals and the complexity

(34:29):
does come to the point ofinterpreting what that is and
how to be able to create actionto improve that value.

Dai Manuel (34:32):
But I think you know , what's really neat is what
you're also, I think, speakingto really well right now,
especially around these stories,because what I'm hearing and
what I think is the mostsignificant piece here and what
I hope everybody else is readingbetween the lines is just
understanding that this is ametric that you can monitor on
your own and start to becomemore mindfully aware that there

(34:54):
is a metric that has this littleinsight into what's going on in
your body, your mind, spirit,energy, nervous system.
I mean so many things and itsounds like you know these
people were really.
When they embrace that, it'slike I am aware of this, I can
see the correlation, I can feelthe correlation, because there's

(35:14):
something very different thanmagical that happens when we see
that Right, when we have thatexperience ourselves, we're like
now, now it's a, it's a hardrooted belief now, right, once
we've had that experience andgood luck trying to convince
those people of anything else,you know, once we get to that
point and I love that, I knowthat's where you have been
working from, especiallywhenever you speak to HRV,
because your passion comesthrough every single time and I

(35:35):
love it.
And I guess you know myquestion now because we now know
all right, we're aware of this,we know that we have access to
some basic technology, so we cannow be very accountable to
ourselves and start monitoringthis stuff, but there's still
going to be the challenge.
What the hell does the numbermean and what do I have to do to

(35:56):
change the number right?
And as much as you talked aboutthe biopsychosocial model and
you're absolutely correct, thisis all part of the bigger
conversation.
Maybe, as you respond to thisor these interventions or these
different ways of influencingour HIV in a positive way, maybe
think about that in the termsof biopsychosocial, because I

(36:18):
don't know.
Actually, for those that don'tknow, maybe first, what is
biopsychosocial?
What does that mean?
The BPS model?

Yeah, so when we talk about the different
components of health, we knowthere's many different
components of health, but theykind of be brought into three
different categories.
Which is your biological health, right, you know, how are you
feeling, how is your bodyfunctioning, what is your
physiology like, how strong areyou?
So you talk about yourbiological components of health,
which I think we really heavilyfocus on right now, especially

(36:44):
people that use these wearables.
It's pretty much, hey, what'smy sleep like, what's my
nutrition like, what's myexercise like?
So that's kind of a big focusalong a lot of people that use
wearable technology.
The other two components aren'tas talked about enough and I
think the value of measuringheart rate variability is to be
able to quantify these areas.
And then so there's biological,then the psychological, which

(37:09):
is obviously your mindset andyour emotions around things.
What is your interception like?
What is your emotionalregulation like?
What is, you know,self-acceptance like?
So all those different areas.
And then we talk about thesocial aspects of health and
well-being.
We're starting to now realize,through the pandemic and now a
lot of awareness around whatcommunity actually does, right,
what actually having a goodfamily, support and friends and
all these things can possibly do, your environment in regards to
home and work and all thosethings that impact in health and

(37:32):
wellbeing.
So all those components aresuper important to health and
what the biopsychosocial modeltries to be able to show is
they're all equal.
They all have gigantic impactsinto your health and wellbeing.
You can't separate one for theother.
They all impact your health andwell-being.
You can't separate one for theother.
They all impact your health.
But you understand of, like youknow, are we dealing more of
the biological problem?
Do you have a tumor?
Do you have diabetes?
Do we have some sort of illnessor condition?

(37:54):
Are you not maximizing yourphysiology?
Is there something going onwith your mindset, the way you
think about things?
You know your traumatic past,whatever it may be, or it's the
fact that the community thatyou're in you don't feel
supported?
You feel isolated?
You know you're not.
You don't have a good work oflife balance.
All those different areas aregigantic things that impact our

(38:15):
health and well-being and thebiopsychosocial model tries to
be able to explain that.

Dai Manuel (38:18):
That's great.
Oh, okay, that I love.
That's actually one of the bestexplanations I've ever heard
for the BPS.
So, actually one of the bestexplanations I've ever heard for
the BPS.
So thank you very much for that.
Cause I just realized, you know, I was like asking questions
around the BPS and I'm like Idon't know if anybody knows what
that is other than you, and IThank you for that clarity there
and it's super cool.
Everybody.
When you start looking at BPSand you start looking into it or

(38:39):
, sorry, looking at your ownhealth through those filters, it
helps you really start toisolate and get a little bit
more specific in the actionsthat you can also start to do,
because now you can categorizethose types of actions and
figure out how does that fitinto your lifestyle?
I see so many people want toreinvent their lifestyle, to try
to manipulate their health, andI'm like, listen, if that was
going to work, you would havedone it a long time ago.
Let's figure out how to usewhat you got and work it into

(39:01):
the plan, rather than create awhole new plan that now you have
to create a whole new lifestylearound and you know, holy
smokes, that's a full 180 overhard.
So do you mind sharing somepractical insights around the
biological, the psychologicaland the physiological that
people could start to do tomanipulate or really positively
influence HRV to start trending?

Yeah, absolutely, and usually we kind of start
with is is just the way thatI've seen success and maybe the
fact that people can see me theway that I address it is I I do
try to be able to start with thebiological, go to the the
social and then thepsychological and I'll kind of
explain to the process as to whythat is right.
So when someone comes to me andthey have a poor heart rate
variability, say, it's all themetric that I currently have,
right, right, and people arelike you know what I just want?

(39:43):
I want to reframe my health, Iwant to make sure everything's
good.
I have no other context.
What I always start with firstis like, what is their physical
health like?
Right?
So to that point, to thestandpoint, do we have someone
that has diabetes, because I'verun into this now does someone
have cancer?
Does someone have multiplesclerosis or Lyme disease or are
more of a complex mentalcondition?
That is the first and foremostthing that I want to make sure

(40:04):
of, right, from the veryfundamental perspective.
So that is the biggest thingand the reason why, from that is
one to the point, that's goingto impact only health and
well-being, but the fact isthat's kind of the not the
easiest but kind of the lowestamount of effort that we have to
be able to put into our healthand well-being.
So being so, say you havediabetes, right, say we're
dealing with that as we dealwith other things.

(40:25):
What does that come with amedication that's typically in
the form of a shot.
Right, you take a shot once aday.
Not a long time, a lot ofthings to do.
It's very low effort to be ableto kind of create maximal
change.
So I'd be able to kind of startfrom that standpoint things
that can really impact heartrate variability but take a
little amount of effort to beable to do.
But that's always the firstthing.
Making sure just general healthis phenomenal.
Then the next stage, you startto look at the biological and

(40:48):
the big three that you canaction are your physical
activity, your nutrition andyour sleep.
Right, in the grand scheme ofthings.
You know what?
Does exercise take?
30 to 45 minutes, you know, say30, be conservative.
30 minutes a day, that type ofthing, it's not a big chunk,
it's not a lot.
You work eight hours 2% man,it's only 2%.
Exactly, exactly.

Dai Manuel (41:07):
Whoa whoa.

So that's and that's all you know.
That's the biggest thing.
You know you can make agigantic impact with 30 minutes
a day.
Right, it's only 30 minutescompared to, like I said, eight
hours of work and comparativelyit's a little preparation of
night time to make sure thatthat's concentrated.

(41:28):
So there's a little amount ofeffort that can, that can be
dealt into.
That.
And I say from each of thosethree things, when it comes to
what are the big hitters to takeaway to improve heart rate
variability, that's obviouslywhat you know people here for is
is one is to the point ofimproving.
You know vo2 max is the biggestthing from a physical activity
standpoint, right Now that thisis purely from heart rate
variability.
There's other things that arejust as important, but we know
the correlative factors of VO2max.

(41:49):
Vo2 max is essentially what isyour cardio respiratory fist,
how good is your cardio?
And so one of the fundamentalthings I get people to start
with is what they now call zonetwo training, but in the grand
scheme of things it used to becalled long, slow distance
training.
There's many different namesthat were popularized around it
all, but all that is it's abouttwo to three hours in a week of

(42:10):
work that you can have aconversation like this with.
But your heart rates up alittle bit right On an effort
scale.
You know you're talking abouttwo to three on an effort scale,
kind of walking around with alittle bit of vigor, doing that,
it seems to be the biggestamount of impact.
If you're starting from nowhere, it's a great place to be able
to start to kind of get that in.
From a nutrition standpoint, youwant to be sure you kind of be
able to stick to the whole foodsor as much as you can, possibly

(42:32):
the 80% rule of the whole foods.
I think Huberman said somethingto the point of like, if you
stick with vegetables, fruit andmeat, you're doing pretty darn
good.
Just try to eat those things asbest you possibly can.
It's very nuanced in regards tonutrition, so I don't want to
butcher it as much as youpossibly can, but it's that's a
good place to be able to start.
And then from a sleepperspective, it's about rhythm
and consistency.
So whether it's you know youget up at four, great, you go to

(42:55):
bed at 10, fine, as long as youkind of keep it consistent.
To major ones, obviously themental and the emotional right,
the mental is going to be yourinterpretation of um I know I
skipped over social, but youknow biopsychosocial model.
Yeah, the psychological, themental and the emotional

(43:17):
component.
So the mental side of things ishow you interpret your, your
world around you.
Right, like, how do youinterpret your work, how do you
interpret your, your um, youknow, family life and the signs
of your emotional worries isobviously the feelings that you
get as a result of those things.
How you're dealing with thosefeelings and emotional areas.
Those are very difficult.
They're typically significantlymore nuanced, because why are
we responding that way?

(43:38):
These take a lot more energy inorder to be able to change,
because it takes one quick slipup right To be able to start
that negative loop cycle and tobe able to be able to change.
Because it takes one quick slipup right To be able to start
that negative loop cycle and tobe able to be able to change
things.
So that takes a lot longer.
Obviously, what we know throughresearch to best improve that is
one awareness the awarenessthat there are minds going that
way or emotions are going thatway is the first and then

(43:59):
intervene with some sort ofrespiration, breathing, whatever
that may be.
So the biggest I think thebiggest thing for me is
understanding of my response tothings, which is typically
anxiety.
When I start to feel thosefeelings, have that stop, take a
deep breath, remove myself fromthe conversation, right, and be
able to kind of go on, justrecognize that it's a very

(44:20):
powerful tool.
And the last one from social,from then again it's right.
After kind of that social, thatcommunity base, what is your
work environment like?
What is your home environmentlike?
And be able to establish orreestablish connections, of
going to do hobbies with peopleand enjoy these things and going
out and doing things in a veryproductive way, right, whether

(44:49):
your work home friends, whatevernecessary may be, to making
sure that people have thatsupport, be able to have that,
be able to have that network,that that all fosters health,
performance and well-being.

Dai Manuel (44:53):
So, okay, what a great answer, my goodness, and
also some great insights.
And in it I'm sure peoplelisten to this, because they've
listened to enough of myepisodes now that, my gosh, that
sounds a lot like what I alwayssays.
Those are the habits I'mconstantly coming back to.
Anyways, you know, like, butthat's the thing about the
basics they're not so basic, youknow, they're really the most
important aspect of just havinga happy, healthy, long life.

(45:14):
And when we have that stuff, atleast in our worldview, you
know it's insight or we're awareof it we can start to recognize
the things that we do and howit makes the impact, or, you
know, negatively or positively.
And I think I love that.
You really speak to theawareness piece.
And that's where I find thesedevices and this kind of

(45:34):
technology really helpful,because it's gosh, I mean,
everything's going app-based now.
I mean, how cool is it to beable to look at, even if it was
just just once a week?
Do a report.
It's Sunday.
How did I do this last week,whoa, I spent a lot of time
sitting.
You know like it's good to know.
I mean, apple tells us now, anda lot of these other devices,
how much screen time we're doingon their devices, right, and

(45:55):
then it's like so anybody tellsme.
It's like, you know, let metake a look at your screen.
And this is just your phone.
By the way, you know, this isincluding your TV, your
computers, your Tesla.
You know like you see a lot ofscreens.
So, um, you know, I'd love toask you one thing, cause I know
we're getting here close to theend and I want to be respectful

(46:17):
of your time, greg.
But also everyone's beenlistening and, uh, don't worry,
have Greg back, because I barelyscraped the tip of this iceberg
.
So if you could make one boldprediction about the future of
health and wellness, what wouldit be?

you'll be able to have the same accuracy of a lab
test, with everything in thecomfort of your own home.

Dai Manuel (46:39):
What you think that's pretty close Like.
Do you think that will happenfairly soon?

I just spent some time down in Dallas, me and
Benad Onerbash, one of thephysiotherapists that I work
with.
We spent time with Andy Galpindown in Dallas and he was
updating a lot of the stuff thatwas coming out kind of behind
the scenes with some of thetechnologies, and he kept saying
this and it's so true when hewas going through some of the
stuff it's closer than you think.

Dai Manuel (47:05):
Great, I love that.
I mean, how cool would that be.
Also, just like I'm actuallymeeting with a gentleman from
Toronto who's got a company thatdoes like the lab testing at
home.
Lab testing is really big inthe states.
It's, it has, it's starting toshow up in canada, but it's
still not quite because of ourmedical system, right, like they
just put a lot of red tape upwhich makes it a lot harder for

(47:28):
people to even pay for medicalstuff they want in canada, which
it seems really weird, right,it seems weird to me.
I want to buy it.
It's my money, let me buy, like, anyways, that's, I won't go
there.

Give you a little bit of insights on that is the
fact he was talking about.
You know how we have thepotential of non-invasive
glucose monitoring right, so youdon't have to put your finger
anymore and that type of stuffhe goes.
Imagine that for everything inyour blood.

Dai Manuel (47:52):
Wow, dude, that would be crazy.

And again he said we crazy.
And again he said we're not farfrom having that done.

Dai Manuel (47:59):
I didn't know how that would be possible.
That's super cool.

Yeah, we're getting close.
We won't have to have thesewearables anymore.
You can literally just have acamera in your bedroom.
You'll be able to measureeverything as scientifically
valid as you possibly can inregards to your sleep stages.
You won't have to wear anythinganymore.
You won't have to wear anythinganymore.
You won't have to.
Yeah, he's talking about these.
You know back.
You know, currently still youdo VO2 Max with these.

Dai Manuel (48:25):
Oh, yeah, yeah.

All that type of stuff.
He said they are really closeto launch.
The companies are starting tolaunch.
In fact, you just have tobreathe on something.

Dai Manuel (48:35):
My gosh.
I love it.

Yeah, my gosh, I love it.
Yeah, like, in regards toaccessibility, this high quality
information for people to beable to take over their health
and well-being.
It's closer than you think andso things are progressing very,
very quickly, obviously, with,you know, the advances in AI
that they can be able to, youknow, create these algorithms
and work on these projectswithout the manpower and
significantly faster.
It's just going to keep growingand growing our ability to be

(48:57):
able to kind of get this dataout there and, uh, even to a
point uh, we talked aboutsomeone that I met down in in la
last year where her company iscontinuously progressing where,
through wearable technology nowwe can measure she's validating
emotional state.
We can determine if you'regoing through a positive or
negative emotion, if it's superintense or not, and and on a
continuous standpoint, so you'llbe able to actually get what is

(49:18):
my emotional state coming froma risk-based device and you'd be
able to see this type of stuff.
There's an amazing amount ofstuff, not only from the
biological standpoint, but fromthe psychological standpoint as
well.

Dai Manuel (49:29):
It's exciting times right now.
You know it really is, and Ijust love this because this is
that piece that I really feelthe world needs.
You know we need to have accessto this type of technology, but
not just those that can affordit.
Everybody needs access to this.
You know, this is how we changethe world, right, oh,
absolutely, even as we speak.

It's funny we're just, uh, installing an mri
machine.
This is the size of a garbagecan, right across from me.
Yeah, wait, the size of agarbage?
Can it's the size of a garbagecan, right across from you?
Yeah, wait, the size of agarbage?
Can it's the size of a garbagecan?
Yep, the individual itself,he's, he does dissertation on,
on, uh, validating uh this typeof device so you're able to get
uh your wrists and elbows andankles and knees and all that
type of stuff, and it'sliterally the size of a little

(50:11):
garbage can it's out there andpeople get it done.
They're gonna say the amount ofstuff that's coming out over
the next little while is goingto be absolutely fascinating.

Dai Manuel (50:19):
Holy smoke.
I didn't even know thoseexisted yet.
I just presume MRIs need a room, you know, and a very
specialized team to run it right.

No, it's literally in a 10 by 12 room beside me,
10 feet, so it's 120 square feet.

Dai Manuel (50:33):
That it's in there and you'll have a practitioner
in there with a person and alltype of stuff.

So dude that is freaking awesome.

Dai Manuel (50:41):
Yeah, wow, oh, yeah, I you know.
Okay, we're getting to the endhere.
I would just keep going withyou, greg, all day long, and I
know everybody that listens tome knows that I could.
So don't worry, I'm going towrap it up pretty quick here, um
, but I wanted to ask listen,you, like myself, have worn a
lot of hats in the wellnessindustry, all right, and you

(51:03):
know exercise physiologist toentrepreneur, I think how have
your experiences to date reallyshaped your view on health and
fitness?
But also, like, what keeps youexcited about this stuff?
Keep working in this field, youknow, because I think it's kind
of crazy at times, right, likewe just keep doing it, man, and

(51:23):
I mean I love it, I know youlove it, but I'd just love to
hear from you, like, what'ssomething like and what keeps
you coming back?

Yeah, so from a practitioner standpoint, you
really kind of get that end ofone understanding right Of how
to be able to impact anindividual from from a person's
standpoint, how each individualis unique in their own
standpoint, how you have to beable to address them or deal
with certain issues and and howto, you know, talk with them.
So you learn a lot about, aboutreally how to to help people on
an individual basis, right todrive the most, about impact

(51:52):
what they're looking for, whatthey're not looking for, right
to really kind of make that uhand really to be able to kind of
guide them in the directionwhere they need to be guided,
which is why, you know, having a, you know surround myself with
a team of practitioners Like Inever envisioned myself being a
solo person, that I solveeverything I knew very early on
that that was never going to bethe case.
I need people around me,practitioners from many

(52:13):
different areas that wear manydifferent hats, and just
everyone collective kind of worktogether as a big thing, which
is kind of frame me from aclinical standpoint.
You have success with theindividual and I think the
entrepreneur side of thingsreally is to understand of like
well, how can this thoughtprocess be able to scale to
other people?
How can we make the most amountof impact?
What are we commonalities?
If we find it we can be able toput out there that people would

(52:34):
be able to want to listen to andbe able to drive a significant
amount of impact on their ownright, be able to have not just
one person, be able to help athousand people and so, having
both of those hats on, and beable to say, well then, how do
we go from one in this scenarioto five?
Like, can we be able to havethe systems in place that we
have with one to five, five to10, 10 to a hundred and be able

(52:56):
to kind of go forward with that?
So we kind of laid out thisprocess of like how can we
maximize the impact that we haveon an individual with the least
amount of effort to have theright systems in place where we
can be able to drive results?
So that's kind of the biggestthing where you really dive into
the current understanding ofthe research and where kind of
that fits into this philosophy.
So that's where thepractitioner comes in, of

(53:17):
staying relevant in regards tothe technologies coming in.
But then to the entrepreneurside of things.
Well then, how do weincorporate this new technology,
this new understanding to beable to deliver the results that
we need to, and how does thatsituate with the consumer, with
the operations, with everything?
So that's where you kind oflook at both hats, and so I
usually kind of will shift fromone to the other depending on
where I am in regards to my life, but it's nice to be able to

(53:40):
have a bunch of those mindsets.
I'll never consider myself apure, pure entrepreneur because
you know, with the heart ofhearts, I want to be able to
have that maximum impact withthat individual at that time.

Dai Manuel (53:51):
And I appreciate that.
You know, like I still do, I doa fair bit of one-on-one
coaching.
I mean, I have to limit theamount of hours I dedicate to
that, but I maintain that sameset of inventory, hour-wise,
every week, so I know I can makethat impact in certain people's
lives.
And is it duplicatable?
Is it scalable?
Not really, you know, it reallyisn't, but the depth at which

(54:14):
you can go and make a differenceis huge, like it's huge, you
know, and I think that's alwaysthe conundrum for us
entrepreneurs is well, how canwe maintain that high touch
while also increasing the amountof impact?
You know, and it's a conundrum,but it's one worth fighting for
and figuring out.
And uh, speaking of which, Iknow that's something that
you're working on right now.
And so you know, as we sort ofsegue out, I only got two

(54:36):
questions left for you.
This is uh, the second lastquestion is you know what,
what's new and exciting thatyou're working on?
I know I've sort of got theintensity, but I know, yeah, I
signed an nba, by the way,everybody, so I can't really get
into it fully, but maybe youcould just give us a little hint
of what's coming, what you,because part of everything
you've shared today, I know, isalso setting you up for
something that you've beenworking on a long time, getting
near the launch, um, but it'ssomething very specific that

(54:58):
relates to everything that we'vebeen talking about.
Do you want to just talk aboutthis?
This, this new program, a newway of well really working with
people?

yeah, exactly.
So we're kind of going througha couple pilots right now with a
couple of individuals,different areas and, in very
similar to what you said, peoplejust don't have access to, to
what they have in the unitedstates, right, and so I've been
doing a lot of work over thelast year and a half two years
really heavily in regards to howcan we get access to people to
a lot of these services and howto be able to be able to really

(55:26):
help it combine what we callthese biological, psychological
and social aspects of well-being, to address them and be able to
drive those results from anindividual basis.
There's companies in the Statesthat are out there like crazy,
but I think there's an absoluteneed in the market.
In regards to Canada, you knowthere's nothing really happening
in Ontario, there's nothingreally happening in British
Columbia in regards to theseservices.

(55:47):
So we're starting to be able tokind of put a program together
that starts to look at kind ofthe bigger things that we need
to be able to look at in regardsto health, well-being
optimization for people outsideof that medical system.
You know a lot of people now wehave private healthcare clinics,
but it's still very diseasebased people right, making sure
you don't have a disease.
I have many people that havegone to a lot of these private

(56:08):
clinics that they get theirblood results back.
They get these scans and theygo.
You're great.
Keep going.

Dai Manuel (56:13):
You're great.

Yeah, we'll see you in six months.
It's like that's not what Iwant.
What can I work on, what can Ido?
And they go no, you're fine,like everything's good, keep
doing what you're doing, right,and then you know, we get the
results.
Here we're kind of like my gosh.
There's so many things we canbe able to steer you into, right
In regards to you know thespecific training regimens and
you need to focus on yourcardiovascular.

(56:34):
In regards to your more highintensity interval training,
because these markers are not inthe ideal state.
You know your DEXA scan resultsand all these things.
We compile this information andthen, to the point of like, we
deliver that and then we want tobe able to kind of compare that
again, creating that communityof people around that area, but
also have that overseer ofperson that makes sure that
their mindset is good you knowtheir emotional state is good
and be able to drive themforward good, you know their

(56:57):
emotional state is good to beable to drive them forward.
So you got your team of people,um, that drive, not necessarily
just to be, you know, not havea disease, but to the point of
like, let's, let's get the mostout of your body that we
possibly can.
Let's try to optimize theseranges specifically, tinker with
these little things.
So you're you're going forwardand promoting it.
So we're starting to be able tokind of put this together now.
Um, we'll probably, by the timethis is out, we'll probably be

(57:17):
able to launch in the first kindof couple people we're kind of
in the final stages of just thetougher one, as you know, is
more the blood and the moreexpensive materials and costs.
So we're just finalizing those.
We're having our meeting nextweek, so we should be to the
point where, you know, in thelatter half of 2024 and built in
2025, we'll be able to havethis program up and running.

(57:38):
So definitely follow me to seewhen we start to be able to
launch this stuff, because I'msuper excited.
I've did a lot of testing inregards to this stuff and, dave,
you've been a part of some ofthat process of understanding of
when to intervene with people,when not to, and understanding
of the journey of the individualaround the health journey.
So, yeah, so keep an eye onthat.
It should be launching prettysoon.

(57:59):
A lot of info will be comingout very soon about that.

Dai Manuel (58:01):
And best way for people to follow along is
probably your Instagram account,I would imagine, and LinkedIn.

Yeah, those are the best.

Dai Manuel (58:06):
Very prolific on both of those channels.
So I do recognize that that'swhere you play most.
And yeah, it's, and you've gotgreat information you're
constantly sharing.
Greg, I really got to commendyou on that.
It's wonderful because forsomeone that's more like a
layman, you know for a lot ofthese things I mean I'm trying
to learn, but you make it moreaccessible to information.

(58:27):
Just the way you can tell thatyou're a very good facilitator
and educator but also verypatient.
I mean it's the dad in you,right, being a dad again you
know, like it's just, it's thedad in you right being a dad
again.
You know, like it.
just it's, it's because when yougo from one kid to two kids,
you, you got to develop thatskill and uh, I gotta say, man,
it's, uh, it's been a realpleasure having you here today.

(58:49):
And, um, you know, uh, inclosing, I I listen, I, I always
love to give the guests lastword, and so you know, if you
can leave the listeners with onekey takeaway, you know, from
today's conversation, you knowthat's even they could start
doing right away to start takingcontrol of their own health.
What would you like to leavethem with?

I think I think the biggest hurdle, I think that
that people have to understandis the fact that you do have a
significant amount of control inyour life.
Something will happen where youknow you get diagnosed with
cancer or you break something orwhatever may be.
Um, and I think a lot of that,um, you know, self-control gets
removed, right, and they feelvery vulnerable.
At that point you say, you knowI deal with that with a lot

(59:28):
with pain.
Individuals where they may havea little bit of a of a back
ache and they're like, oh, I,you know, herniated disc, I need
surgery, and they kind kind ofgoes on.
It's just like no, it's alittle bit of tendonitis.
I think we're going to be okayand be able to reassure them
that like, listen, like you havea lot of control, but this
isn't and even it was aherniated disc.
Like you have a lot of controlto be with how that you, you

(59:50):
you're not as helpless as youthink that you are.
Go in that spiral becauseeverything is, you know, I think
in our world now, especiallyyou know, with the population
that we deal with, things go sowell for individuals and they're
used to succeeding, and so whensomething hits them to the
point where they're impacted andthey feel like they have no
control over it.
They start to be able to godown that route.
But there's so many things thatpeople have and the one quote

(01:00:12):
we were kind of talking about.

Dai Manuel (01:00:21):
You know some of the stuff is very simple and I say
this a lot for people is is therecommendations I provide.
I'm like listen, I know these.
These recommendations are quitesimple.
Don't confuse simple with easy.
Yeah, well said.
Oh my gosh, I've said that acouple times too yeah, it's true
, though it's.
It's amazing how much energy weput to the things that we can't
control versus actually lookingat things that we do have
control over.
And if even we just did an 80,20 perotis principle like 80% of

(01:00:41):
our energy went to the thingsthat we do control and 20% of
the energy goes to the worryingand everything else around the
things that we can't, we wouldprobably have a well, our HIV
would be different.
It'd definitely be higher, um,but man, it would definitely be
higher, but man.
What great insight today.
Thank you, greg, for coming.
I know it's been a long timecoming.
We've been trying to do thisfor so long and between the two

(01:01:03):
of our schedules kids, family,summer holy crap.
But I'm glad because it wasworth the wait.
Nathan, worth the wait.
This is just one of thegreatest interviews yet.

Greg Elliott (01:01:15):
On the 2% Solution , I'm going to get you on the
record right now will you comeback again, always die for you
anything, and that's the thingis is again, I hope people
really value what you do and theamount of information and the
effort you put in, and if peoplelistening here don't know that
the amount of preparation thatdie does and and the
thoroughness of everything it'sit is hard, you know it's second
to none is, honestly, he doessuch a phenomenal job and I and

(01:01:37):
I really um love the communitythat you've obviously built
around you and I hope everyonedefinitely appreciates the
amount of effort and energy thatyou put in to be able to
deliver such unbelievableinformation to people.

Oh, you just did my week.
Oh, thanks, greg.
That's gonna be my new ringtone, I think.
There you go, don't let it goto my head.
No, seriously, Greg, thank youso much and I'm excited, you
know, once you've got theprogram fully launched, please
let us know.
Love to have you back to giveus some updates on how that's
going.
But also, I think by that pointyou'll also have some other

(01:02:10):
insights that you can share withus on practical tips,
strategies and other ideas foroptimizing our health and
well-being.
I love that you stress that,hey, if you need to fix
something, well, we've got amedical system for that.
But you want to actually get tothe next level in life.

Greg Elliott (01:02:29):
Ah, great, very different lens to look at, and a
lot of people are surprisedwhen you start to be able to
look at some of their data andgo through those information.
It's like, oh, I didn't realizethat, and so very different
lens, but it's a very powerfullens too.

Amazing, amazing.
Well, thanks again, greg, toall the listeners.
I'll see you in the outro.
And, greg, thanks again.
Thank you, would I tell you,incredible convo today with Greg
.
If today's episode didn't changethe way you think about your
health, well, quite frankly, Idon't know what will.

(01:03:00):
From using heart ratevariability to predict health
issues before they even arise,to the importance of
personalized wellness strategies, greg's approach offers a whole
new perspective on optimizingyour life.
So remember, it's not justabout living longer, it's about
living better.
And if you're ready to stopplaying defense with your health
and start taking control, Iencourage you to dive deeper

(01:03:22):
into Greg's work.
Head over to gregelliotca tolearn more, and don't forget to
connect with him on Instagramand LinkedIn.
I've included his links in theshow notes to make it easy to
get a hold of him and check outwhat he's doing.
Thanks for joining us on thisepisode of the 2% Solution what
he's doing.
Thanks for joining us on thisepisode of the 2% Solution.
If you found today's discussionvaluable, share it with someone
ready to level up their health,or maybe someone that's
tracking the biometrics butaren't aware of really the power

(01:03:45):
of heart rate variability yet.
You could introduce them to afunction that they didn't even
know they had access to on theirdevice as well.
Stay tuned for more insights,because small changes can lead
to massive transformations, anduntil next time, keep striving
to be just 2% better every day.
I'll catch you in the nextepisode.

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Decoding Heart Rate Variability: The Future of Health with Greg Elliott

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