August 2, 2025 • 40 mins
Explore the minds of pro wrestlers as we engage in thought-provoking conversations about their wrestling styles, character development, and the artistry behind their performances.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
This is your Shepherd Tomahawk, and you're checking out the
Three Count Podcast. Bye now.
If you're listening to this intro, you already know what it
is. It is now entering 201 and I'm
(00:20):
your host, Clifford Red Dog Letterman.
That leads you up the amount to call wrestling and you know,
like every good shirt, but it's never about me.
It's about who's entering the ring.
So who's entering the ring. You can find this man wrestling
in Texas, Idaho, Maryland, DC, Virginia.
He if if it's a state, he's probably been there except for
the Northeast, which you know, prayer prayers up.
(00:42):
We can, you know, have our shepherd join us.
Here's the man that I like talking to.
We have a great time every time that we get to either be in the
ring together or we just sit in the bag chatting it up.
He is the shepherd tomahawk. Appreciate you man, appreciate
you having me. Hell yeah, man.
I was like, I remember we were talking back and forth and then,
you know, brought the idea of like coming through and just
(01:04):
doing another episode of the podcast.
And I was like, hell yeah, bro, 'cause I think the last time we
did it, you were in the tag team, you were in the dark
horses. And then now you guys have kind
of, you know, ventured off and things have gone differently
with Grizzly O. And here you are making your
way, making your journey across like all the different regions.
So, you know, it's funny, I saw,I saw that you had showed up at
(01:28):
a Fight Club and that you were actually in Texas.
And I was like, oh snap, I didn't know that Tomahawk was
there. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it came together pretty quick.
I mean, you know, opportunity came up and it was going to
Dreamcon in Houston. You know, it was it was an
awesome time. The crap was insane.
It was a hell of an experience. My mother lives right outside of
(01:49):
Houston. She ain't never seen me wrestle
before. So she got to come out.
I mean, she had her opportunities, but she never
wanted to see me wrestle. Not not always on my side as far
as enjoying this, this industry I got myself into.
But she came out and went to a show and one of the shows that
we had out there and it was, it was, it was pretty good.
It was wild. It was a good time.
Yeah, I heard a lot of good stuff about the event.
(02:10):
I also heard about a lot of the wrestling drama.
Y'all don't get to know about it, but yeah, I heard about sort
of stuff that good and bad. But I heard a lot of good stuff
about the wrestling crowd. Like the crowd was really into a
lot of it. I heard about the you know, and
Dino had his like, pick a move and take it from me, I thought.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, they set it well, they set
it up as like a like a, like a mini seminar, right.
(02:32):
So you basically, they, they hada line that was seemed endless.
We were there for all three daysof dream Con And basically it
was a line that was like get in the ring, learn how to run the
ropes, learn how to take a bump and then take a bump from a
wrestler. And it was, you know, quick and,
you know, it was interactive andhe had all the streamers coming
in and they're shooting their content.
And, and then, you know, we had show on Friday night, 2 shows on
(02:57):
Saturday and then one the, our, our, our last show was on Sunday
and the turn out was absolutely insane.
I mean, if I they really, they really pulled together, you
know, John and Kazama, the guys that run it and then Dino,
obviously, I mean, they pulled together like just an awesome
array of talent and then partnering up with a Houston fed
to come out there and have some of their guys.
So you had local guys messed up with our guys and it was a hell
(03:20):
of a hell of a turn out. Yeah, I know.
And and Dino had brought it to me too.
And he was talking about like Dreamcon.
He's like, he gave us the dates next year, like as far as like
myself and purely, you know, gave us the dates and was like,
all right, so you guys know already ahead of time this is
what it'll be. So we're like, yeah, we going to
have to, we're going to have to make this fly through too.
You know, Prince had a lot of fun too.
(03:41):
So, you know, it was cool to seeeverybody had like such a great
time and everybody was able to mesh and and have like a just a
nice kind of energy as they're merging.
And like you said, I had heard about the Houston, the Houston
local wrestlers that had came through and they also had a
blast working with our guys too.So yeah, it was.
It was cool to see everything play out, man.
Yeah, I mean, the locker room was wild because you had guy.
(04:01):
I mean, it wasn't even just Houston, because we had guys
that were from like Charlotte. We had guys from Chicago.
We had. So it was like this weird
melting pot of talent. And it turned out to just be
like such like a, you know, likethe stars aligned as far as the
wrestling and the crowd where wewere positioned at the actual
Comic Con was like right in the main hall across from the
mainstage. So like, if you came in through
the doors, you know, going to any event that the, you know,
(04:23):
the hundreds of events that theyhad, you had to walk by what we
were doing. And you know, I've always said
to like any, you know, any person that ever would listen to
me as far as like, you know, wrestling, this wrestling that
every single person I've ever met in my life has some
wrestling story, whether it was their grandmother that they
watched when they were kids or like Hulk Hogan or Macho Man or
like Rock Austin. Like everyone has a point in
(04:44):
their life when they know about the business and seen it and
have some kind of tie or like, you know, degree of how they
know it. And you know, naturally they,
they came and just stayed and watched.
And it was, you know, I think throughout the entire weekend we
had 100,000 views on us over different social media sites.
And then we had 1000 plus in thecrowd every single day.
(05:04):
So it was, it's pretty insane. It was pretty and it was, you
know, very, very live crowd, youknow, I mean, because they, they
enjoyed it and we were, we gave them a hell of a show just
because of all the talent. So it's cool.
No, I'm, I'm glad, like I said, you know, seeing you guys do
your thing and, and, and the wayeverything worked out, man was
it was amazing to see as well aslike, you know, you obviously
(05:26):
going to Idaho. That was kind of crazy because I
didn't see that one. When I saw you also pop up
there, I was like, my man is travelling.
Right, Man, I'm trying. I mean, I've been in the
business long enough that like I, I, you know, I never really
got like a solidified blueprint on how to like get bookings, I
guess, or like how to reach out.I always felt very like, I don't
want to like, you know, come offlike a weird way or like
(05:47):
unprofessional or like, you know, there's, there's so many
different ways to get, you know,and so many different paths in
this business to go. So I never really like, I guess
in, you know, the the crappiest terms.
I didn't really put myself out there as as much as I maybe
should have. And yeah, I mean, it's just,
it's just literally just reaching out.
I was going out there for a vacation and I was like, let's
see what the scene is like. And there's literally only one
(06:10):
company out there, one company, you know, and it's very, very
intimate Fed. But it was, you know, the people
were great, the talent was awesome.
Also, you know, Idaho Wrestle Club and they got a lot of
clubs, but you know, it was, it was a just a very live crowd
for, you know, it was right outside of Boise in Nampa.
And they've been running shows there for, you know, 10 plus
(06:32):
years and they've been keeping it alive.
And their, their whole ideology and their like, philosophy is
that they want to make, you know, Idaho like a, like a, like
a hub, you know what I mean? Like for out there 'cause
there's not a lot, you know, I mean, you got Salt Lake City,
you know, Washington State. So there's not a lot of like,
you know, there's a lot of milesin between where you could go.
And they're very much like, we got to keep this live.
(06:53):
We got to do what we can to keepthis foot because if this goes
under, there's no wrestling in the state.
So it was cool to see that camaraderie over there.
And they, they got a lot of guysthat train hard and, and, and
bust their ass And it was, it was cool.
It was cool to go over there andjust see a completely different,
you know, seeing No, there was no like, you know, politics,
nothing like that. Everyone was very much in the
(07:14):
common goal. Everyone was very nice and
friendly and had pretty good match.
And it was it was fun. Yeah, man, it was awesome.
Yeah, and it's like so like I said, man, like I see you
traveling like, you know, Texas,you know Idaho, We we, we had
our triple threat in Pennsylvania.
So this year known I did. I've seen you just kind of hit
like right, man, I'm. Trying I'm out and I and I hit
(07:35):
you up I mean I'm not trying to stop man I'm trying to keep the
street going. You know, this, the The Word of
the Shepherd tour is trying to continue.
I'm trying to keep it going, keep it moving.
So yeah, hopefully I can get up in your neck of the woods soon
enough. Yeah, and it's definitely it's
cool because like that's something that like I've had
like an issue with myself, like doing right.
It's like I have gone through and I've developed like this
awesome like network, right, Of like people that can talk to you
(07:58):
just about anything in anywhere and like not utilizing that
network to help me get to that next spot.
Because I feel like, and I kind of know where you're coming
from. You kind of feel like I don't
want to use these people becausethen I don't want to feel like
I'm just coming off trying to accomplish something.
You kind of. Yeah.
But the weird thing about it, and it's weird because wrestling
(08:19):
is one of those places where like, if you're willing to like
go and help somebody, like they're willing to help you as
well. Yeah, absolutely.
It's so, but it's so bizarre that we're all like, Nah, I'm a,
I'm a do it myself. Right, No, I know, I mean, it's
it's, you know, I guess it's part of the, you know, the
self-made idea idea of like whata wrestler is, right.
(08:39):
Like it's, you know, you want tobe able to like see how far you
can go on your own. But yeah, everyone needs a
network. Everyone needs, you know, you
know, someone to pull them up tothe next steps.
And, you know, especially, you know, for, you know, I mean, at
least for me for like doing as long as I've been doing it, like
a lot of I mean, shit, you movedlike there's guys that I've
known and then they go elsewhereand then but they're still doing
it there. And it's like, you know, it
(09:00):
could be more. It's it's like that web, you
know, that web and just trying to connect the dots and just
get, you know, people in the better spots.
And, and on top of that, it's like we want to everyone wants
to work new talent, you know what I mean?
I want to see like I went down to I did a tour in Tennessee
and, you know, their, their way of wrestling is, you know, very
different from out here. They're walking and talking and
they're, you know, listening to the crowd.
(09:21):
So it's a very different structure.
And it was a culture shock to me.
And I'm like, holy shit, like I want to see more of this.
I want to feel more of this. So it's it's kind of like, you
know, it's it's that's the best thing about this.
Like our art, you know what I mean?
It's like you can interpret it and do it in so many different
ways in different paths that it just makes it the best on the
planet, I think at least. Yeah, no.
And see, it's funny because likeI recently had a match where and
(09:44):
actually it was a I think it might have been the week after
we had worked our triple threat with Andino.
I had worked a match in Rhode Island and my my friend shout
outs to Brian Bayside, who runs Focus Pro wrestling.
Sorry, I know you don't want to know, but everybody gonna know
now that's worst kept secret anyway.
(10:05):
Anyway, so we were working a match and we literally we
started off by saying, hey, man,like we want to start this off
doing like the Hulk, Hulk Hogan,Rock from WrestleMania, stare
off and we'll just pop trash. And then the way we finished it,
he was like, how do you want to finish this?
I was like, yeah, let's do the big show.
William Regal finish. And he's like, he's like,
(10:28):
really? I was like, yeah, he's like, you
just want me to kind of like laydown and just like put my arm
on. He was like, no, dude, full
flop, like over the top of me. This is no big.
And so we were laughing about itand we didn't call nothing else
in the match that was those. And we're like, we're just going
to fill it out from the rest. And like, man, we didn't have to
work a whole. We worked really well a lot and
(10:50):
we didn't have to. We didn't do a lot of move sets,
but it was a lot of like listening to the crowd and it's
just like talking mashes. I'm here in the crowd, like
start clapping like, yo, fire upreal quick.
Let me cut you off. And he's like, all right, bet.
So we start firing up, boom, kick him in the leg like and
then he starts then talk trash to the crowd.
I love like being a part of thatkind of atmosphere.
It's something weird about like when you first get in, like I
(11:12):
understand the idea of like, hey, we're going to call
everything so that way we're notgetting lost.
But what you end up missing out is like you miss out on the
parts where, well, why is the crowd not reacting to my move?
They should be. And it's like, well, we really
haven't given them a reason to like react to you.
You just like, hey, check out all the cool flip stuffs that I
can do or look at all all the cool.
(11:34):
I'm gonna hit you with this, this vertical suplex into a,
into a German suplex into a fisherman Buster.
And then we're going for a pin and the crowd's like, I don't
even know what just happened. Right.
Yeah, No, I mean, it's yeah, that's it took me a while, I
think in my career to like figure that one out.
I mean, you know, the way I had a very unorthodox training of,
you know, how I even got into this business.
(11:54):
And it was, you know, the majority of my learning
experience was being in front ofa crowd.
So seeing guys like, you know, do certain like move sets and
stuff like that and like all this over the top things and I'd
be like, wow, I can't do flips. I'm not going to be able to do
that shit. There ain't no way.
Like like I, you know, ground and pound brawlers going to be
more So what I do for sure. Upside down and tomahawk don't
(12:15):
really mesh too well, but you know, being able to like kind of
slow it down, like slowing it down is like the most cliche
thing that every wrestler goes off about.
Like if you think going slower, go slower, you know what I mean?
But it literally does translate to just basically being able to
reset your brain to be like, where, where's the crowd at
right now? You know what I mean?
And like, that's like the biggest thing that like, you
know, I mean, you know, obviously we we try to emulate
(12:38):
the grades and like a lot of these, you know, the guys that I
know that I watched when I was akid, the majority of their stuff
wasn't called. It was like they're going to go
out there, listen to crowd. You mentioned Hogan and Rock.
I mean, that was literally changed on the fly, like because
of the crowd reaction, right? So seeing that kind of stuff, it
took me a little bit of time andwith, you know, in the tag team
having like 2-2 minds meshing well, I mean, it got to a point
(12:58):
when we really got that down andwe could really just be like,
all right, well, you know, we got this, this and this.
We know where we can put it in, but let's just go out there and
kind of like feel it out and feel out and see what we can do
with it and what we need to switch and, and, and, you know,
lighten up with and stuff like that.
So, but the shepherd gimmick, I can, I can really, really slow
(13:18):
it down, which has been the mostsatisfying.
I mean, things like that I've done in a long, like, you know,
in a while, but just because it's, I'm just, you know, having
them in there and just being able to move them, ready to move
them. It's been, it's been a lot of
fun. And, you know, doing it as a
good or bad, it's, it's, it works either way.
(13:38):
So it's, it's been, it's been very fulfilling.
But yeah, like, like you said, it's that's some of the that's
what makes sense. Freeing.
I mean, the art is just freeing,you know what I mean?
It's like you being able to justgo out there and kind of just do
whatever and just go and entertain naturally is.
I mean, that's one of the best feelings in the world.
Yeah, and whether you're like the good guy, you know, your
face or your heel, this is really like it to me.
It, it doesn't, I don't know. It doesn't matter as long as
(14:01):
you're connecting with the crowd.
I had someone ask me, so a bunchof my I 'cause I started at a
new gym a couple months ago and a bunch of my Co workers were
asking me about like, hey, man, like do you really care about
the wins and losses? Like do you know who?
How do you perform when you findout that you're not going to win
or you're not going to lose? And I'm like, well, I don't even
care anymore at this point. I'm like, Yo, just can the crowd
(14:21):
cheer me? Can a crowd Boo me?
I don't really care. I'm just here to have fun and
just like put people on the journey at this point in my
life. And I'm like, and I get it too,
right? You're like, I and I'll be fair,
like maybe if I was like a decade younger, I would probably
care more about wins and losses.But this point, man, I'm just
having so much fun trying to keep matches in my notebook of
like who I've worked and when I work because I think that's
(14:44):
important to me too. But one of my favorite things
was like I started using. So for those who watch me now, I
started using Penta's arm breaker because I was like, yo,
that's kind of a cool thing to throw around.
And I was like, and Red Dog, whether he's heal her face, like
that's something I can use. And the first time I tried it as
a face was actually on 2nd at HWF.
(15:05):
First time I tried as a face. And I was like, you know, the
crowd's about to Boo me for this.
And I I was thinking about it actively.
I was thinking about it as I held him and I was like barking
in the crowd. Crowd started barking back.
I was like, yeah, we're about toget him.
And I did it. And the crowd popped and I was
like, oh, wow, we've gone so far.
Like, this is not what I thoughtwas going to happen because the
(15:26):
week previous I was working as aheel in Rhode Island.
And I did the same thing. I did the same move, and the
crowd booed me. So I was like, this is
interesting. Like, so intent matters, right?
Like, I'm intentionally going todo this and take his out.
But like the crowd, really, depending on how you've built up
with the crowd, they really. Yeah, I mean, it can be like,
(15:47):
you know, I've always said like depending, you know, the moves.
Yeah, they they matter in the sense of like just how they
connect you to the crowd. Like, you know, if you if you
build up a reporter that you're this, you know, bad ass good guy
that's been through blah, blah, blah.
And you got, you know, say you're with sick.
And then he's, you know, running, you know, even if he's
not running heel. But they've, they've built up so
much equity with you as this like guy that's that's gone
through a lot of shit or whatever the hell it is, you
(16:08):
know what I mean? Yeah, when you do that move,
it's going to be like, yeah, he got his he finally, you know
what I mean? So and on the flip side of that,
it's like, yeah, if you do it toone of their guys that they
love. You get this shit?
Boo daddy, you know what I mean?So it's, it's yeah, it's all
about the equity bill with it. But yeah, that's that's.
Funny, but it's funny because like it, it's something that
someone has been talking to me about like they've been pounding
(16:29):
ground pounding it in my head for years, right, is about like
the aggression side of things, right.
And it's like, as you know, the first couple years, I'm still
trying to figure this whole thing out And then like getting
into my my 4th year, 4th and 5thyear, I'm still like learning
how to like turn up the aggression side of things and
I'm going to put him out there. Chaz smacks me every single time
(16:51):
he wants to turn the intensity up.
It'll be full on bitch smack. I'm not even kidding me in the
corner and you'll see it. He just leans back and just
whips it. And it's like, damn, I'm like,
I'm going to fucking kill you. But our match.
So we had that triple threat match.
And then right after that I had worked two other matches and I
(17:12):
started realizing like, oh, I can kind of let go this
aggression side a little bit andlike, really build into it.
So fun fact, 'cause you weren't at the last SWA show, but
finally Red Dog snapped out. But yeah, it it, I thought about
like the storytelling of how youwere telling me, like, oh, we
(17:33):
want to bring the aggression outof Red Dog.
We want him, you know, have him cut his, you know, let loose and
start using them teeth and stuff.
And like, so, like we, it started like transitioning over
now. And so, yeah, so and I, I did
blame the shepherd, always carry.
There. Yeah, I blame, I blame the
Shepherd. I'm like, are you looking for
the reason why this happened is that you got an interview with a
(17:54):
match with me and Tomahawk, you know, just all your fault.
And like now like it's like, so he's kind of cutting things a
little bit more, a little bit more heelish, but it's justified
heelish. And so.
Yeah. But I love it though, and it it
makes me like, I'm like, oh, I can like fire off and be OK with
this. And the crowd gets behind it
too. So I'm like, we, we went in with
(18:14):
this now. Yeah.
There you go. Yeah, no, that's good.
I mean that's like, you know, I did the same.
I mean, it's kind of weird that this character is kind of
morphing into that. It's kind of morphing into this
thing where I just want to pull like the I mean it's the whole
basis of it is always like pulling the potential out of,
you know, whoever the the lessonversion of the you know, the
target is or whatever. But you know, with Jesse, I mean
(18:35):
Jesse Orion, I did that. You know EWA for we did a year
long you're long feud and it wasyou know, he won the Sweet 16
title or the Sweet 16 trophy. He pinned me, but with a roll
up. I got pissed off because you
know that's not the way you should, you know, chicken way
out of it. You know what I mean, the sneak
attack blah, blah, blah, and youknow, beat him up with it and I
rundown, but then he beat me, you know, the way I needed him
(18:57):
to. So I kind of ran with him for a
little bit on trying to teach him aggression because that
trophy got him the big title match against Michael Anthony,
who's like 6-8, you know, 400 lbs or whatever, big guy.
So it was me kind of training him and then, you know, it came
down to to the fact that he didn't, you know, end up using
the aggression maybe a little bit farther than I wanted to
take it. Maybe he more than he wanted to
take it by using like weapons and stuff.
(19:18):
But, you know, we had our last man standing match that really
in a 40 minute last man standingmatch, we did some some pretty
wild stuff. And, you know, I, you know, I
was talking to him in the back about it and it was like this
who also, you know, was in Texasas well, came down to Houston.
He has an amazing match that we wrestle with Triple threat as
well with Pardon McFly. But yeah, like his whole
(19:39):
demeanor towards like the business as his character, you
know, I mean, has shifted because of the stuff that me and
him did just because like you said, it's like being able to
like there's just another tool you can use.
You can pull out that aggressionof now and it kind of gives you
a whole another like dimension to that character, right?
Like it gives a whole another like side of it that you can
(20:00):
either tap into too far or you can tap into, you know, the
right amount, the depending on which way you want to go with
the crowd, right. But yeah, literally it's kind of
turned that I mean, like the character is all about kind of
building up. In my version of it, right, But
for the most part, it's guys I want to work and it's guys that
I want to just be able to literally do it in real life
(20:22):
though, with, you know what I mean?
Because I mean, you had dabbled a little bit in UWA.
You know, we didn't get to lie. We locked out I think 11's time.
I think we had like A tag match in Southwest 8, but it's like we
didn't get to really full hands on it.
And I'm excited for what we, we,we do for, but it's, you know,
it's just being able to, you know, kind of like you said,
(20:44):
people are worried to, to, to reach out, right?
We're never gonna reach out, especially when it comes to our
own shit, our own characters. We don't want that.
That's, that's the fun. But there's always a way to, you
know, throw in an extra a littlebit of, you know, a little bit
of seasoning, a little bit of spice, a little bit of, you
know, maybe maybe this could work, maybe, you know what I
mean? And that's kind of what the
character, it's kind of it blends real life for me a little
(21:06):
bit, because that's where I findthe most is just a collaboration
of being like, hey, dude, like Ibet you tried this, It'd be kind
of cool. Like, hey, like, you know, this
could be use me dude, like this could be good, you know what I
mean? So it's kind of it's been very
fulfilling. I've had a very satisfying run
with this character for for for the most part, it's been a good
time. Yeah, I had AI had a dude, Beau
(21:29):
Douglas on our podcast, right. So now into the ring.
And one thing that we had talkedabout, I had joked about how Red
Dog has like the multiverse of Red Dog where like all the
different versions were. And he was like, yo, I like
that. He's like, yo, keep that going,
keep all the different characterstuff happening stuff.
He's like, the one thing you're going to find out is you're
going to have Red Dog Prime, andthat's the one that's the one to
(21:51):
run with. You know, he could be two feet,
but he's serious. He's locked in.
He's got kind of modes. And I was like, yeah, that's
crazy. So I think, like the more I
start playing in the world of Red Dog, the more I start to
understand, like, hey, this is how he is.
And so getting to work with you and then getting to understand
like, oh, like, to be fair. Because you know, like one
(22:12):
thing, one thing about it is like, you can have like, OK,
I'll be fair. You got to stay in the mindset
of being locked in, in your character.
But like, sometimes like an aggression thing happens, right?
And like, you know, you, if you lose control, you'll say, fuck
it, yo, something happened. So it's like staying in like
(22:32):
having your emotions checked andcontrolled.
And I, I say that in an aspect of like one thing somebody,
somebody asked me was like, what's, what's one thing that
red dog has that you wish you had?
And I was like the unwavering confidence that that dog has
because he's like, I, I don't know how I'm going to do it, but
I'm going to run through this brick wall, bro and get done.
(22:55):
Like, I don't know where it comes from, but I was like,
that's like, it's so much fun tohave that kind of thing.
But then like also then that confidence starts to shake.
He starts to lose that. He gets that more aggression
going in. And I think about that a lot.
And now like, I get to work this.
I'm working this program with Kurt Blair where he's kind of
got involved with my matches. You know, one of them was our
match and then, you know, I involved another one.
(23:17):
And so finally Red Dog was like,fuck it, it's time to take
matters into my own hand. And I love that aspect of like
Red Dog now. Like I no longer want to play by
the rules if no one is going to play by the rules.
And it's fine. And so it's.
Like, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's just adding layers,
you know what I mean? Like at the, you know, by the
end of anyone's career, you justpeeling back these onion layers
(23:40):
and seeing how you that character that you started with
when you were training and just learning the bumps, learning the
ropes. And then whatever that little
baby seed was and how big it grows to towards the end of it.
And you know, or even like throughout it, it, it, it
shifts, you know, I mean, I mean, they look at guys like,
you know, and shit, Jericho still inventing himself, you
know, and doing different, you know, I mean, what the hell, you
(24:00):
know, I mean, it's, it's the coolest thing when you, when you
just keep adding those layers and it's when you usually get
your best work because it's, it's keeping the creative juices
flowing for the most part. Because if you get stagnant, you
know, nobody like you won't havefun.
And if you don't have fun, they'll notice you not having
fun. And then it'll be like, OK,
well, what the Hell's the point of this?
So much fucking. Breaking your goddamn back for
(24:21):
no reason. So it's like taking these
unnecessary bumps for, you know,waking up acting old.
They'll know that if you're in, you know, it's all about, you
know, if they know that you're into it.
So I think that's awesome, man. I think that's that's, that's
dope that you're shifting, shifting the gear up with the
with the red dog. That's that's fun.
Yeah, and I, I mean, you know, it's like you're talking about,
(24:42):
right? It's like you have this effort
you have to continue to evolve in this game and you keep
playing with the ideas. I I watched the very first
promo. I did.
Oh my God, bro, that was the first prom.
I was like, Oh my God. I was like bro what is wrong
with you? I think dude, I think the first
one I did with the as a dark horse, I think I was smoking a
(25:02):
cigarette with like a cut off shirt.
I thought it was so cool. It got it was like so cringe and
I think I found it not too long ago.
We had like this. It wasn't like necessarily
awful, but it was just like, God, man would never.
I was just like thinking like whatever.
It's like I saw like some like old 90s villain.
I was like, oh, he's smoking a cigarette.
That'll be cool. Like, I don't know.
Bad ass. Yeah, that'll be bad ass man.
(25:23):
That'll show him who's means whomeans business.
But yeah, I know it's it's it's hard.
I I try not to watch too much ofmy too much of my stuff in
general anymore. No, I I don't.
Know. So I watch back my first promo
and then I watch back my first match.
And I was like, as I'm like critiquing it, I'm starting to
understand, like, oh, this is where we wanted to talk about
(25:46):
this. This is where we're talking
about this. And then I started kind of
understanding like the layers. And I started talk like I was
talking to my matches. If I was like coaching it over.
And I was like, there's some parts where I was like, yo, you
there, Start working your way up.
Like start talking to the crowd.Like get the crowd involved.
Like do this, do that. And then I watched like my most
recent match and I was like, oh,we're just doing that shit.
Just not yeah. Yeah.
It's like second nature. I mean, it becomes second
(26:07):
nature. It's you know what I mean?
It's, you know, it's like any other.
It's just the reps, the reps, the reps you know?
Yeah, I was just saying it has to be.
You have to be forced to fire like you.
Yeah, no, yeah, literally. Well, and it's even more crazy
because like, you know, it's, you know, it's a performance
art, you know what I mean? So you're literally like, you
get out there, you, you know, especially when you're, you
know, early starting out, you know what, 5 to 8, if that.
(26:29):
And it's like you're going in there and like, you got to do
all these things pretty much perfect, right?
To like not, you know, feel likeyou fucking suck, but.
But if you got to do it, boom, one shot and then you're like,
OK, then you got to wait, you know, a week or whatever the
hell a day they do it just another 5 minutes.
All that build up, all the travel, getting ready, prepping
mentally, all that stuff, all the nerves, that shit you got to
(26:51):
take beforehand, all the stuff you got to go over.
Then you get out to the ring andit's up to you if you right.
So it's it just getting outside the reps.
I mean, that's like I said, I bring it back to like how I
started off. It was literally like we had two
sessions a week before I even know how to take a fucking
proper bump. It was awful way to to start
off, mind you. No, no way, you know, gratifying
(27:12):
or, you know, like glorifying this at all.
But I was in battle Royals just getting the shit kicked out of
me. But I got to be in front of a
crowd, right. So it you know, before I even
had the fundamentals of wrestling, for the most part, I
knew kind of how to talk and be at least comfortable in front of
people when I'm wearing, you know, spandex and getting the
shit kicked out of me, right? So I had this like I had that
(27:34):
that comfortability. I think that's not a lot of
people talk about that in the beginning, especially with these
trainees nowadays. They don't talk about like it'll
take you a little bit of time tojust be comfortable in front of
a crowd. I mean, like at the very basis
of it, you can be doing a manager, you can be a fucking
ref. I mean, it's intimidating to be
in front of people expecting to be entertained, right?
That's not like a like normal thing for someone to just be
like, I don't know how to do this, right.
Like it's some people, it takes a little bit of time.
(27:57):
I mean, for people like us who are like attention whores, I
mean, it's a little easier, but like, you know what I mean?
But it's, it's tough. It's a tough thing to, like,
psychologically get through and then remember all the stuff that
you learned and have to do it onthe fly.
So like, yeah, our, our, our wayof being brought up, at least in
the beginning, before we, you know, when we learned this stuff
after it was very backwards. Yeah.
(28:18):
Like, here's here's pushed in front of a crowd, here's your
gimmick. And we're like, I don't know
what to do. And then it was like, OK, now
you learn, here you go, now you got to do it.
So it was. But the one thing that I, that I
take, I took from that, 'cause you got to find the silver
lining and all this shit, right?Is literally at least got to
know how to just feed off a crowd and work them and stuff
(28:38):
like that. So it was kind of helpful in
that regard, but wouldn't recommend that way to anyone
going into this. Well, I got, I got lucky.
So I started training in like January of 2020 and then like
the pandemic happened and so it shut everything down.
So all I meant I was just doing after like when May came around
was like the week after MemorialDay started getting back into
training again and just working and just training.
(29:00):
And then it became 2A day. So it'd be like a Saturday,
Sunday like I would be at I'd beat the right city compound like
working and then work practice matches.
And then I had my first match with big trouble band Bishop,
which it was just a quick squashgoal of fight squash match.
That's all it was. But after that, man, like then
it was just like, alright, let's, let's figure these things
(29:20):
out. And you know, and like you said,
man, like you, you go out there and you're like, I have to
figure out how to get in front of this crowd and like talk to
everybody and, and be OK with it.
And one of the things I learned was that, like, I just wasn't
comfortable in front of a camera.
So like, I had to like, learn. So Chaz and I start up a podcast
and then like, here we are, likecutting promos.
(29:42):
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Every. Day.
Right. Yeah.
And then, like, it's funny because you mentioned this,
right? So one of the things that one of
my bosses had just told me was that I am too comfortable
talking to strangers. He's like, you're too
comfortable. I was like, bro, I sit in a car
for seven hours. I drive to random places I have
(30:05):
in front of people and then I have to find a way to engage
those people. So yeah, I'm very comfortable
talking to strangers for no reason whatsoever.
It's like it's it's all because of pro wrestling and I I, I love
it was like it was a two way street.
I'll share this, I'll share it with you guys.
I'll share it with you too. I think we talked about this,
but you know, if it wasn't for 2017, my daughter calling me
(30:27):
squishy, squishy, like I wouldn't be doing all this like
I was, I was big. I got into the gym, I started
working out. I randomly met a dude who was
into pro wrestling. We started talking.
Then I found my way into pro wrestling.
And then like, you know, I I gotinto the gym.
I started really focusing on like building up strength and
endurance because I was like, I need to get better at all this
(30:49):
stuff and this thing after thingafter thing.
And then when I'm in front of a crowd now, it's like, you got to
engage this crowd. You got to talk to these people,
you got to tell them what's going on and you got to tell
this story of how everything's and you got to draw them in.
I'm like, I was just grateful that like that one moment
happened in 2017 because it changed my whole life.
Bro Yeah. I mean, I mean, yeah, it's crazy
(31:12):
how kids will do that to you. My first born, I yeah, literally
it was kind of the same deal. I mean, I had Griz, you know, he
started training at House of Pain.
You know, he went out of here before me, me and him weren't
even talking. You know, there's a guy known
for, you know, since 6th grade, you know, and we had it falling
out after high school. He had, you know, we've gone
through motion a couple years down the road, he started
(31:32):
wrestling. He literally messaged me
randomly on Facebook and was like, hey, man, like fuck the
beef. Like you need to come out.
And we talked about doing this as kids.
I'm coming. He attacked part of us do this,
like, let's let's do this. Just do the dream.
And I had just had my first born, and it was like, I
remember, I very vividly remember looking at him and
being like, this could be a moment where I can show him
forever that no dream is unattainable.
(31:54):
Even if I fail or whatever, at least I went for it.
And then maybe that's a teachable moment in itself.
So yeah, just kind of was on a whim off of that, just to kind
of show that, you know, my kids,you know, can shoot for
everything they want. Nothing should be crazy.
And like, anything they want is in this world can be for them.
So as long as they want it enough.
And you know, here I am going on12 years later, so doing it.
(32:17):
I'm over here, I'm over here. Like I still look at it.
I'm like, and so, you know, people ask me all the time.
They're like, what do you like? What's your hobbies?
I was like, well, I'm, I don't really, I was like, it's weird
to me because like this is no longer like a hobby, right?
Like I have been so next year inJanuary will be my 6th year,
right? I have been in doing pro
(32:37):
wrestling longer than I had beenin the military.
Like I was in the military for, you know, almost six years.
I'll be fair, like five years and like 11 months.
And I had like they had like 60 days of terminal leave.
So we'll call it 5 and 10. But like, I'm right there with
pro wrestling, like in a couple months, like it'll be, you know,
(32:58):
in October will be that 10 months.
And then I will officially have been in pro wrestling longer
than I was in the military. And it boggles it.
Like, it's crazy to think about and have I had like as many
matches as everybody else? No, but I'm OK with that.
Like, I enjoy just doing what I'm doing and just having fun
with everything that's going on.But I just think in the concept
(33:19):
of time, I'm like, whoa, dude. Like this is a lot that I've
gone through and a lot of stuff that I've done.
And just the way that, you know,pro wrestling is able to open
up, open you up to new opportunities without like,
being too afraid of it. It's cool.
I mean, at the very least you'remeeting new people.
I mean, I've got some of my friends that I've like, I call
(33:41):
my closest friends now that I'vemet through wrestling, you know
what I mean? Like, I've been to places I
probably never thought I would have been because of pro
wrestling, that's for sure. I've met different demographics
of the country, you know what I mean?
I've exposed myself to certain things like that.
So I mean, like, yeah, I mean the very least, you know, and
I've been able to pay some billslike that.
I mean, anything that's, you know, that'll pay a bill to me
(34:02):
is worth doing, like is if it pays something, if it helps out
the family some way, if you're, if you're, if you're
contributing and that way it's not a fucking hobby.
That's if it's not, if it's paying a bill, it ain't a hobby.
It's a job, right? But this job has taken it, you
know, it has a lot of up and downs.
I mean, granted, there's a lot, you know, long drives and you
know, being away from the family, it's tough stuff.
I mean, that's not like a cake walk, but it is open to a lot of
(34:23):
things, like you said, a lot of open doors and create a lot of
things that maybe you wouldn't have gone through if you weren't
in the business, right. So Nah, it's beautiful.
It's, it's, it can be the best and the worst.
That's why it's the best, right?Like it's got all of it in it.
Well, like Brutal Bob Evans always refers to it is like
wrestling has to have its own place.
Like it can't it consumed your whole life.
(34:46):
It's got to have its own compartment and you got to be
able to open that compartment, play with it when you want to
and then put it away. Because as soon as it becomes
like engulfing of your whole life, like then you're like, oh
man, I gotta do this, I gotta drive, I gotta do this, I gotta
do that, I gotta do this. And it just it, it can wear you
down. It can it can beat you down and
this business will beat you down.
So for those of you who are watching this for the first time
(35:06):
and trying to figure out what isgoing on, hey, like this
business, this business will it will just take from you and it
will not get it will give you itwill give you a lot of stuff,
but it will take a lot of stuff from you to like.
I have definitely met a bunch ofpeople in this business that I
have trusted more than I did in the military.
(35:27):
And it's weird to say that, but like, you're literally putting
your life in somebody else's hands and you're hoping that
they don't hurt you. Yeah.
Yeah, literally, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, like you
said, it's yeah, it'll, it'll take a lot.
But you know, the biggest thing is that, you know, wrestling
will never owe you anything. You know, it'll never owe you
anything. So everything that you do has to
be constant of what you want. Like if you actually want to do
(35:49):
this, you got to really love it to do it, because it will never
owe you nothing. It'll never, you know, you can
never ask it for anything more than what you put into it.
And that's in itself kind of like a, you know, more of a
metaphor for something bigger ishard work, right?
Like, I mean, that puts you in aplace that you have to kind of
get what you want out of it and be OK with the result, if it's
even not the result maybe you want.
(36:09):
But yeah, no, it's, it's, I guess it's, I love it.
I love it. I mean, it's been, it's been,
it's been good. It's been good.
Yeah, it's and it's. Getting more exciting and that's
and that's awesome too. It's just good.
I feel like for both of us, I mean, it's just getting more
exciting and better opportunities to come in and
stuff like that. So it's it's been awesome, man.
Yeah, I can't. I can't wait.
There's a lot of stuff going, coming down the pipe that I know
(36:30):
ain't granted. Things change, right?
You got to kind of stay fluid inthis business.
I this is one thing I tell people like, I'm very grateful I
was in the military because it taught me like the whole hurry
up and wait process, like hurry up and get to the finish line.
But like, wait, you got to wait.And so, like, this is what pro
wrestling does to you too. It makes you like, hurry up, get
to somewhere you got to be, but then you got to wait.
So like I'm always like, for sure, I've been ready for this
(36:53):
for a while. Like I've been for a long time.
And I've kind of like there's been like so much that I've been
able to include in in my character that is just me
because of like things that I'vegone through.
And I feel like if especially with good characters, like you
should be able to pour so much of yourself into something that
like when you're ready to divorce it, like you're never
(37:16):
really fully divorcing it. You're just like, yeah, it's
it's still like all of me, like I talk about this like red dog
character and I'm like, bro, when I'm ready to divorce Red
Dog, like it'll be Cliff, but you will see.
Like there was never much of a difference between Red Dog and
yeah. Yeah, no, that's yeah.
I mean, that's how you. That's how you yeah, I mean, OK,
(37:40):
so from you like the one thing II I've I've always like kind of
wondered because like I've knownyou as A tag team wrestler for a
long time, but I've also known you as a singles competitor for
maybe just a bit higher shy to that.
So made that transition from being like in the tag team to
Austin just like running solo. Like what were your biggest
(38:02):
challenges that you're running into?
And then like, how did you overcome those challenges?
I mean, so jeez, I mean, even think about now, I mean, it's
been about five years since me and Grizz were the part of the
dark horses. So it was right around like
maybe six months before COVID. I mean, it was, you know, I had,
we just we had the places that we were wrestling at the time.
(38:23):
I think it was, you know, you know, EWAATCWEPPW, we were doing
NWR for a little bit. I mean, we had just ran our I
feel like we multiple time champions in all of those
companies. And it got to a point when it
was like, are we going to just keep running this tag team
division? And like, I don't know, I don't
(38:44):
want to say it felt like gatekeeping, but it felt like we
were, we were there and we put in the work and we recognized as
like the best and blah, blah, blah.
And it was kind of a point to like, this is what we want to
do. Like for the next five years or
the next 10 years, you know, that we want to just only do tag
team wrestling. And we kind of want we both had
a, you know, very deep talk, I mean, well, deep talk after like
(39:05):
a 12 pack. But it was like, you know, kind
of just kind of laid it out like, hey, man, like what do we
want out of this? Right.
And you know, he's, you know, wehave our, our, our love of
wrestling together as a group, as a, as a, as a partnership,
but we also have love for wrestling a separate like big
Shawn Michaels guy loves Shawn Michaels.
I mean, this dude, you go into his room, you'll see all sorts
(39:27):
of shit. And you know what I mean?
Like I was big on the Rock and like Jericho and Eddie Guerrero
and stuff like this. So it was like, let's, let's see
what, what else we can do and not necessarily break up or like
do anything like drastic, but like, let's just separate for a
little bit like Triple H, Shawn Michaels, like let's just kind
of do our own thing, but together, but doing our own
thing. And we dabbled with that for a
while, right around, right around before Coke.
(39:50):
What's up it is your friendly neighborhood red dog and thank
you for checking out this episode of the three count
podcast whether or not was Chad's friends red dog friends
dating and friends to film stashdown into the ring now entering
201 or now returning to the ring.
You know all those good episodesyou should really be liking
commenting and even sharing thiswith your friends family,
whoever it may be. But what you all should be doing
is checking us out on all of oursocial media platforms at 3
(40:12):
count 5, whether that's on IG, Twitch, you know, you check us
out on threads, whatever may be and if.
Go check us out on X it is 3 count under score pod.
Check us out on YouTube as well as Facebook on rumble on Apple
Music, on Spotify, all those funthings you know, tell your mom
about us, your dad about us, your aunties, your unbles, your
brothers, sisters, your cousins and your best friends and your
enemies because we love haters too.
(40:34):
Do all that stuff and then, you know, last but not least by our
merge on for youwear.com O proratsmithuse.com kawaii.
This is your Shepherd Tomahawk, and you're checking out the
Three Count Podcast. Bye now.
If you're listening to this intro, you already know what it
is. It is now entering 201 and I'm
(00:20):
your host, Clifford Red Dog Letterman.
That leads you up the amount to call wrestling and you know,
like every good shirt, but it's never about me.
It's about who's entering the ring.
So who's entering the ring. You can find this man wrestling
in Texas, Idaho, Maryland, DC, Virginia.
He if if it's a state, he's probably been there except for
the Northeast, which you know, prayer prayers up.
(00:42):
We can, you know, have our shepherd join us.
Here's the man that I like talking to.
We have a great time every time that we get to either be in the
ring together or we just sit in the bag chatting it up.
He is the shepherd tomahawk. Appreciate you man, appreciate
you having me. Hell yeah, man.
I was like, I remember we were talking back and forth and then,
you know, brought the idea of like coming through and just
(01:04):
doing another episode of the podcast.
And I was like, hell yeah, bro, 'cause I think the last time we
did it, you were in the tag team, you were in the dark
horses. And then now you guys have kind
of, you know, ventured off and things have gone differently
with Grizzly O. And here you are making your
way, making your journey across like all the different regions.
So, you know, it's funny, I saw,I saw that you had showed up at
(01:28):
a Fight Club and that you were actually in Texas.
And I was like, oh snap, I didn't know that Tomahawk was
there. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it came together pretty quick.
I mean, you know, opportunity came up and it was going to
Dreamcon in Houston. You know, it was it was an
awesome time. The crap was insane.
It was a hell of an experience. My mother lives right outside of
(01:49):
Houston. She ain't never seen me wrestle
before. So she got to come out.
I mean, she had her opportunities, but she never
wanted to see me wrestle. Not not always on my side as far
as enjoying this, this industry I got myself into.
But she came out and went to a show and one of the shows that
we had out there and it was, it was, it was pretty good.
It was wild. It was a good time.
Yeah, I heard a lot of good stuff about the event.
(02:10):
I also heard about a lot of the wrestling drama.
Y'all don't get to know about it, but yeah, I heard about sort
of stuff that good and bad. But I heard a lot of good stuff
about the wrestling crowd. Like the crowd was really into a
lot of it. I heard about the you know, and
Dino had his like, pick a move and take it from me, I thought.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, they set it well, they set
it up as like a like a, like a mini seminar, right.
(02:32):
So you basically, they, they hada line that was seemed endless.
We were there for all three daysof dream Con And basically it
was a line that was like get in the ring, learn how to run the
ropes, learn how to take a bump and then take a bump from a
wrestler. And it was, you know, quick and,
you know, it was interactive andhe had all the streamers coming
in and they're shooting their content.
And, and then, you know, we had show on Friday night, 2 shows on
(02:57):
Saturday and then one the, our, our, our last show was on Sunday
and the turn out was absolutely insane.
I mean, if I they really, they really pulled together, you
know, John and Kazama, the guys that run it and then Dino,
obviously, I mean, they pulled together like just an awesome
array of talent and then partnering up with a Houston fed
to come out there and have some of their guys.
So you had local guys messed up with our guys and it was a hell
(03:20):
of a hell of a turn out. Yeah, I know.
And and Dino had brought it to me too.
And he was talking about like Dreamcon.
He's like, he gave us the dates next year, like as far as like
myself and purely, you know, gave us the dates and was like,
all right, so you guys know already ahead of time this is
what it'll be. So we're like, yeah, we going to
have to, we're going to have to make this fly through too.
You know, Prince had a lot of fun too.
(03:41):
So, you know, it was cool to seeeverybody had like such a great
time and everybody was able to mesh and and have like a just a
nice kind of energy as they're merging.
And like you said, I had heard about the Houston, the Houston
local wrestlers that had came through and they also had a
blast working with our guys too.So yeah, it was.
It was cool to see everything play out, man.
Yeah, I mean, the locker room was wild because you had guy.
(04:01):
I mean, it wasn't even just Houston, because we had guys
that were from like Charlotte. We had guys from Chicago.
We had. So it was like this weird
melting pot of talent. And it turned out to just be
like such like a, you know, likethe stars aligned as far as the
wrestling and the crowd where wewere positioned at the actual
Comic Con was like right in the main hall across from the
mainstage. So like, if you came in through
the doors, you know, going to any event that the, you know,
(04:23):
the hundreds of events that theyhad, you had to walk by what we
were doing. And you know, I've always said
to like any, you know, any person that ever would listen to
me as far as like, you know, wrestling, this wrestling that
every single person I've ever met in my life has some
wrestling story, whether it was their grandmother that they
watched when they were kids or like Hulk Hogan or Macho Man or
like Rock Austin. Like everyone has a point in
(04:44):
their life when they know about the business and seen it and
have some kind of tie or like, you know, degree of how they
know it. And you know, naturally they,
they came and just stayed and watched.
And it was, you know, I think throughout the entire weekend we
had 100,000 views on us over different social media sites.
And then we had 1000 plus in thecrowd every single day.
(05:04):
So it was, it's pretty insane. It was pretty and it was, you
know, very, very live crowd, youknow, I mean, because they, they
enjoyed it and we were, we gave them a hell of a show just
because of all the talent. So it's cool.
No, I'm, I'm glad, like I said, you know, seeing you guys do
your thing and, and, and the wayeverything worked out, man was
it was amazing to see as well aslike, you know, you obviously
(05:26):
going to Idaho. That was kind of crazy because I
didn't see that one. When I saw you also pop up
there, I was like, my man is travelling.
Right, Man, I'm trying. I mean, I've been in the
business long enough that like I, I, you know, I never really
got like a solidified blueprint on how to like get bookings, I
guess, or like how to reach out.I always felt very like, I don't
want to like, you know, come offlike a weird way or like
(05:47):
unprofessional or like, you know, there's, there's so many
different ways to get, you know,and so many different paths in
this business to go. So I never really like, I guess
in, you know, the the crappiest terms.
I didn't really put myself out there as as much as I maybe
should have. And yeah, I mean, it's just,
it's just literally just reaching out.
I was going out there for a vacation and I was like, let's
see what the scene is like. And there's literally only one
(06:10):
company out there, one company, you know, and it's very, very
intimate Fed. But it was, you know, the people
were great, the talent was awesome.
Also, you know, Idaho Wrestle Club and they got a lot of
clubs, but you know, it was, it was a just a very live crowd
for, you know, it was right outside of Boise in Nampa.
And they've been running shows there for, you know, 10 plus
(06:32):
years and they've been keeping it alive.
And their, their whole ideology and their like, philosophy is
that they want to make, you know, Idaho like a, like a, like
a hub, you know what I mean? Like for out there 'cause
there's not a lot, you know, I mean, you got Salt Lake City,
you know, Washington State. So there's not a lot of like,
you know, there's a lot of milesin between where you could go.
And they're very much like, we got to keep this live.
(06:53):
We got to do what we can to keepthis foot because if this goes
under, there's no wrestling in the state.
So it was cool to see that camaraderie over there.
And they, they got a lot of guysthat train hard and, and, and
bust their ass And it was, it was cool.
It was cool to go over there andjust see a completely different,
you know, seeing No, there was no like, you know, politics,
nothing like that. Everyone was very much in the
(07:14):
common goal. Everyone was very nice and
friendly and had pretty good match.
And it was it was fun. Yeah, man, it was awesome.
Yeah, and it's like so like I said, man, like I see you
traveling like, you know, Texas,you know Idaho, We we, we had
our triple threat in Pennsylvania.
So this year known I did. I've seen you just kind of hit
like right, man, I'm. Trying I'm out and I and I hit
(07:35):
you up I mean I'm not trying to stop man I'm trying to keep the
street going. You know, this, the The Word of
the Shepherd tour is trying to continue.
I'm trying to keep it going, keep it moving.
So yeah, hopefully I can get up in your neck of the woods soon
enough. Yeah, and it's definitely it's
cool because like that's something that like I've had
like an issue with myself, like doing right.
It's like I have gone through and I've developed like this
awesome like network, right, Of like people that can talk to you
(07:58):
just about anything in anywhere and like not utilizing that
network to help me get to that next spot.
Because I feel like, and I kind of know where you're coming
from. You kind of feel like I don't
want to use these people becausethen I don't want to feel like
I'm just coming off trying to accomplish something.
You kind of. Yeah.
But the weird thing about it, and it's weird because wrestling
(08:19):
is one of those places where like, if you're willing to like
go and help somebody, like they're willing to help you as
well. Yeah, absolutely.
It's so, but it's so bizarre that we're all like, Nah, I'm a,
I'm a do it myself. Right, No, I know, I mean, it's
it's, you know, I guess it's part of the, you know, the
self-made idea idea of like whata wrestler is, right.
(08:39):
Like it's, you know, you want tobe able to like see how far you
can go on your own. But yeah, everyone needs a
network. Everyone needs, you know, you
know, someone to pull them up tothe next steps.
And, you know, especially, you know, for, you know, I mean, at
least for me for like doing as long as I've been doing it, like
a lot of I mean, shit, you movedlike there's guys that I've
known and then they go elsewhereand then but they're still doing
it there. And it's like, you know, it
(09:00):
could be more. It's it's like that web, you
know, that web and just trying to connect the dots and just
get, you know, people in the better spots.
And, and on top of that, it's like we want to everyone wants
to work new talent, you know what I mean?
I want to see like I went down to I did a tour in Tennessee
and, you know, their, their way of wrestling is, you know, very
different from out here. They're walking and talking and
they're, you know, listening to the crowd.
(09:21):
So it's a very different structure.
And it was a culture shock to me.
And I'm like, holy shit, like I want to see more of this.
I want to feel more of this. So it's it's kind of like, you
know, it's it's that's the best thing about this.
Like our art, you know what I mean?
It's like you can interpret it and do it in so many different
ways in different paths that it just makes it the best on the
planet, I think at least. Yeah, no.
And see, it's funny because likeI recently had a match where and
(09:44):
actually it was a I think it might have been the week after
we had worked our triple threat with Andino.
I had worked a match in Rhode Island and my my friend shout
outs to Brian Bayside, who runs Focus Pro wrestling.
Sorry, I know you don't want to know, but everybody gonna know
now that's worst kept secret anyway.
(10:05):
Anyway, so we were working a match and we literally we
started off by saying, hey, man,like we want to start this off
doing like the Hulk, Hulk Hogan,Rock from WrestleMania, stare
off and we'll just pop trash. And then the way we finished it,
he was like, how do you want to finish this?
I was like, yeah, let's do the big show.
William Regal finish. And he's like, he's like,
(10:28):
really? I was like, yeah, he's like, you
just want me to kind of like laydown and just like put my arm
on. He was like, no, dude, full
flop, like over the top of me. This is no big.
And so we were laughing about itand we didn't call nothing else
in the match that was those. And we're like, we're just going
to fill it out from the rest. And like, man, we didn't have to
work a whole. We worked really well a lot and
(10:50):
we didn't have to. We didn't do a lot of move sets,
but it was a lot of like listening to the crowd and it's
just like talking mashes. I'm here in the crowd, like
start clapping like, yo, fire upreal quick.
Let me cut you off. And he's like, all right, bet.
So we start firing up, boom, kick him in the leg like and
then he starts then talk trash to the crowd.
I love like being a part of thatkind of atmosphere.
It's something weird about like when you first get in, like I
(11:12):
understand the idea of like, hey, we're going to call
everything so that way we're notgetting lost.
But what you end up missing out is like you miss out on the
parts where, well, why is the crowd not reacting to my move?
They should be. And it's like, well, we really
haven't given them a reason to like react to you.
You just like, hey, check out all the cool flip stuffs that I
can do or look at all all the cool.
(11:34):
I'm gonna hit you with this, this vertical suplex into a,
into a German suplex into a fisherman Buster.
And then we're going for a pin and the crowd's like, I don't
even know what just happened. Right.
Yeah, No, I mean, it's yeah, that's it took me a while, I
think in my career to like figure that one out.
I mean, you know, the way I had a very unorthodox training of,
you know, how I even got into this business.
(11:54):
And it was, you know, the majority of my learning
experience was being in front ofa crowd.
So seeing guys like, you know, do certain like move sets and
stuff like that and like all this over the top things and I'd
be like, wow, I can't do flips. I'm not going to be able to do
that shit. There ain't no way.
Like like I, you know, ground and pound brawlers going to be
more So what I do for sure. Upside down and tomahawk don't
(12:15):
really mesh too well, but you know, being able to like kind of
slow it down, like slowing it down is like the most cliche
thing that every wrestler goes off about.
Like if you think going slower, go slower, you know what I mean?
But it literally does translate to just basically being able to
reset your brain to be like, where, where's the crowd at
right now? You know what I mean?
And like, that's like the biggest thing that like, you
know, I mean, you know, obviously we we try to emulate
(12:38):
the grades and like a lot of these, you know, the guys that I
know that I watched when I was akid, the majority of their stuff
wasn't called. It was like they're going to go
out there, listen to crowd. You mentioned Hogan and Rock.
I mean, that was literally changed on the fly, like because
of the crowd reaction, right? So seeing that kind of stuff, it
took me a little bit of time andwith, you know, in the tag team
having like 2-2 minds meshing well, I mean, it got to a point
(12:58):
when we really got that down andwe could really just be like,
all right, well, you know, we got this, this and this.
We know where we can put it in, but let's just go out there and
kind of like feel it out and feel out and see what we can do
with it and what we need to switch and, and, and, you know,
lighten up with and stuff like that.
So, but the shepherd gimmick, I can, I can really, really slow
(13:18):
it down, which has been the mostsatisfying.
I mean, things like that I've done in a long, like, you know,
in a while, but just because it's, I'm just, you know, having
them in there and just being able to move them, ready to move
them. It's been, it's been a lot of
fun. And, you know, doing it as a
good or bad, it's, it's, it works either way.
(13:38):
So it's, it's been, it's been very fulfilling.
But yeah, like, like you said, it's that's some of the that's
what makes sense. Freeing.
I mean, the art is just freeing,you know what I mean?
It's like you being able to justgo out there and kind of just do
whatever and just go and entertain naturally is.
I mean, that's one of the best feelings in the world.
Yeah, and whether you're like the good guy, you know, your
face or your heel, this is really like it to me.
It, it doesn't, I don't know. It doesn't matter as long as
(14:01):
you're connecting with the crowd.
I had someone ask me, so a bunchof my I 'cause I started at a
new gym a couple months ago and a bunch of my Co workers were
asking me about like, hey, man, like do you really care about
the wins and losses? Like do you know who?
How do you perform when you findout that you're not going to win
or you're not going to lose? And I'm like, well, I don't even
care anymore at this point. I'm like, Yo, just can the crowd
(14:21):
cheer me? Can a crowd Boo me?
I don't really care. I'm just here to have fun and
just like put people on the journey at this point in my
life. And I'm like, and I get it too,
right? You're like, I and I'll be fair,
like maybe if I was like a decade younger, I would probably
care more about wins and losses.But this point, man, I'm just
having so much fun trying to keep matches in my notebook of
like who I've worked and when I work because I think that's
(14:44):
important to me too. But one of my favorite things
was like I started using. So for those who watch me now, I
started using Penta's arm breaker because I was like, yo,
that's kind of a cool thing to throw around.
And I was like, and Red Dog, whether he's heal her face, like
that's something I can use. And the first time I tried it as
a face was actually on 2nd at HWF.
(15:05):
First time I tried as a face. And I was like, you know, the
crowd's about to Boo me for this.
And I I was thinking about it actively.
I was thinking about it as I held him and I was like barking
in the crowd. Crowd started barking back.
I was like, yeah, we're about toget him.
And I did it. And the crowd popped and I was
like, oh, wow, we've gone so far.
Like, this is not what I thoughtwas going to happen because the
(15:26):
week previous I was working as aheel in Rhode Island.
And I did the same thing. I did the same move, and the
crowd booed me. So I was like, this is
interesting. Like, so intent matters, right?
Like, I'm intentionally going todo this and take his out.
But like the crowd, really, depending on how you've built up
with the crowd, they really. Yeah, I mean, it can be like,
(15:47):
you know, I've always said like depending, you know, the moves.
Yeah, they they matter in the sense of like just how they
connect you to the crowd. Like, you know, if you if you
build up a reporter that you're this, you know, bad ass good guy
that's been through blah, blah, blah.
And you got, you know, say you're with sick.
And then he's, you know, running, you know, even if he's
not running heel. But they've, they've built up so
much equity with you as this like guy that's that's gone
through a lot of shit or whatever the hell it is, you
(16:08):
know what I mean? Yeah, when you do that move,
it's going to be like, yeah, he got his he finally, you know
what I mean? So and on the flip side of that,
it's like, yeah, if you do it toone of their guys that they
love. You get this shit?
Boo daddy, you know what I mean?So it's, it's yeah, it's all
about the equity bill with it. But yeah, that's that's.
Funny, but it's funny because like it, it's something that
someone has been talking to me about like they've been pounding
(16:29):
ground pounding it in my head for years, right, is about like
the aggression side of things, right.
And it's like, as you know, the first couple years, I'm still
trying to figure this whole thing out And then like getting
into my my 4th year, 4th and 5thyear, I'm still like learning
how to like turn up the aggression side of things and
I'm going to put him out there. Chaz smacks me every single time
(16:51):
he wants to turn the intensity up.
It'll be full on bitch smack. I'm not even kidding me in the
corner and you'll see it. He just leans back and just
whips it. And it's like, damn, I'm like,
I'm going to fucking kill you. But our match.
So we had that triple threat match.
And then right after that I had worked two other matches and I
(17:12):
started realizing like, oh, I can kind of let go this
aggression side a little bit andlike, really build into it.
So fun fact, 'cause you weren't at the last SWA show, but
finally Red Dog snapped out. But yeah, it it, I thought about
like the storytelling of how youwere telling me, like, oh, we
(17:33):
want to bring the aggression outof Red Dog.
We want him, you know, have him cut his, you know, let loose and
start using them teeth and stuff.
And like, so, like we, it started like transitioning over
now. And so, yeah, so and I, I did
blame the shepherd, always carry.
There. Yeah, I blame, I blame the
Shepherd. I'm like, are you looking for
the reason why this happened is that you got an interview with a
(17:54):
match with me and Tomahawk, you know, just all your fault.
And like now like it's like, so he's kind of cutting things a
little bit more, a little bit more heelish, but it's justified
heelish. And so.
Yeah. But I love it though, and it it
makes me like, I'm like, oh, I can like fire off and be OK with
this. And the crowd gets behind it
too. So I'm like, we, we went in with
(18:14):
this now. Yeah.
There you go. Yeah, no, that's good.
I mean that's like, you know, I did the same.
I mean, it's kind of weird that this character is kind of
morphing into that. It's kind of morphing into this
thing where I just want to pull like the I mean it's the whole
basis of it is always like pulling the potential out of,
you know, whoever the the lessonversion of the you know, the
target is or whatever. But you know, with Jesse, I mean
(18:35):
Jesse Orion, I did that. You know EWA for we did a year
long you're long feud and it wasyou know, he won the Sweet 16
title or the Sweet 16 trophy. He pinned me, but with a roll
up. I got pissed off because you
know that's not the way you should, you know, chicken way
out of it. You know what I mean, the sneak
attack blah, blah, blah, and youknow, beat him up with it and I
rundown, but then he beat me, you know, the way I needed him
(18:57):
to. So I kind of ran with him for a
little bit on trying to teach him aggression because that
trophy got him the big title match against Michael Anthony,
who's like 6-8, you know, 400 lbs or whatever, big guy.
So it was me kind of training him and then, you know, it came
down to to the fact that he didn't, you know, end up using
the aggression maybe a little bit farther than I wanted to
take it. Maybe he more than he wanted to
take it by using like weapons and stuff.
(19:18):
But, you know, we had our last man standing match that really
in a 40 minute last man standingmatch, we did some some pretty
wild stuff. And, you know, I, you know, I
was talking to him in the back about it and it was like this
who also, you know, was in Texasas well, came down to Houston.
He has an amazing match that we wrestle with Triple threat as
well with Pardon McFly. But yeah, like his whole
(19:39):
demeanor towards like the business as his character, you
know, I mean, has shifted because of the stuff that me and
him did just because like you said, it's like being able to
like there's just another tool you can use.
You can pull out that aggressionof now and it kind of gives you
a whole another like dimension to that character, right?
Like it gives a whole another like side of it that you can
(20:00):
either tap into too far or you can tap into, you know, the
right amount, the depending on which way you want to go with
the crowd, right. But yeah, literally it's kind of
turned that I mean, like the character is all about kind of
building up. In my version of it, right, But
for the most part, it's guys I want to work and it's guys that
I want to just be able to literally do it in real life
(20:22):
though, with, you know what I mean?
Because I mean, you had dabbled a little bit in UWA.
You know, we didn't get to lie. We locked out I think 11's time.
I think we had like A tag match in Southwest 8, but it's like we
didn't get to really full hands on it.
And I'm excited for what we, we,we do for, but it's, you know,
it's just being able to, you know, kind of like you said,
(20:44):
people are worried to, to, to reach out, right?
We're never gonna reach out, especially when it comes to our
own shit, our own characters. We don't want that.
That's, that's the fun. But there's always a way to, you
know, throw in an extra a littlebit of, you know, a little bit
of seasoning, a little bit of spice, a little bit of, you
know, maybe maybe this could work, maybe, you know what I
mean? And that's kind of what the
character, it's kind of it blends real life for me a little
(21:06):
bit, because that's where I findthe most is just a collaboration
of being like, hey, dude, like Ibet you tried this, It'd be kind
of cool. Like, hey, like, you know, this
could be use me dude, like this could be good, you know what I
mean? So it's kind of it's been very
fulfilling. I've had a very satisfying run
with this character for for for the most part, it's been a good
time. Yeah, I had AI had a dude, Beau
(21:29):
Douglas on our podcast, right. So now into the ring.
And one thing that we had talkedabout, I had joked about how Red
Dog has like the multiverse of Red Dog where like all the
different versions were. And he was like, yo, I like
that. He's like, yo, keep that going,
keep all the different characterstuff happening stuff.
He's like, the one thing you're going to find out is you're
going to have Red Dog Prime, andthat's the one that's the one to
(21:51):
run with. You know, he could be two feet,
but he's serious. He's locked in.
He's got kind of modes. And I was like, yeah, that's
crazy. So I think, like the more I
start playing in the world of Red Dog, the more I start to
understand, like, hey, this is how he is.
And so getting to work with you and then getting to understand
like, oh, like, to be fair. Because you know, like one
(22:12):
thing, one thing about it is like, you can have like, OK,
I'll be fair. You got to stay in the mindset
of being locked in, in your character.
But like, sometimes like an aggression thing happens, right?
And like, you know, you, if you lose control, you'll say, fuck
it, yo, something happened. So it's like staying in like
(22:32):
having your emotions checked andcontrolled.
And I, I say that in an aspect of like one thing somebody,
somebody asked me was like, what's, what's one thing that
red dog has that you wish you had?
And I was like the unwavering confidence that that dog has
because he's like, I, I don't know how I'm going to do it, but
I'm going to run through this brick wall, bro and get done.
(22:55):
Like, I don't know where it comes from, but I was like,
that's like, it's so much fun tohave that kind of thing.
But then like also then that confidence starts to shake.
He starts to lose that. He gets that more aggression
going in. And I think about that a lot.
And now like, I get to work this.
I'm working this program with Kurt Blair where he's kind of
got involved with my matches. You know, one of them was our
match and then, you know, I involved another one.
(23:17):
And so finally Red Dog was like,fuck it, it's time to take
matters into my own hand. And I love that aspect of like
Red Dog now. Like I no longer want to play by
the rules if no one is going to play by the rules.
And it's fine. And so it's.
Like, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's just adding layers,
you know what I mean? Like at the, you know, by the
end of anyone's career, you justpeeling back these onion layers
(23:40):
and seeing how you that character that you started with
when you were training and just learning the bumps, learning the
ropes. And then whatever that little
baby seed was and how big it grows to towards the end of it.
And you know, or even like throughout it, it, it, it
shifts, you know, I mean, I mean, they look at guys like,
you know, and shit, Jericho still inventing himself, you
know, and doing different, you know, I mean, what the hell, you
(24:00):
know, I mean, it's, it's the coolest thing when you, when you
just keep adding those layers and it's when you usually get
your best work because it's, it's keeping the creative juices
flowing for the most part. Because if you get stagnant, you
know, nobody like you won't havefun.
And if you don't have fun, they'll notice you not having
fun. And then it'll be like, OK,
well, what the Hell's the point of this?
So much fucking. Breaking your goddamn back for
(24:21):
no reason. So it's like taking these
unnecessary bumps for, you know,waking up acting old.
They'll know that if you're in, you know, it's all about, you
know, if they know that you're into it.
So I think that's awesome, man. I think that's that's, that's
dope that you're shifting, shifting the gear up with the
with the red dog. That's that's fun.
Yeah, and I, I mean, you know, it's like you're talking about,
(24:42):
right? It's like you have this effort
you have to continue to evolve in this game and you keep
playing with the ideas. I I watched the very first
promo. I did.
Oh my God, bro, that was the first prom.
I was like, Oh my God. I was like bro what is wrong
with you? I think dude, I think the first
one I did with the as a dark horse, I think I was smoking a
(25:02):
cigarette with like a cut off shirt.
I thought it was so cool. It got it was like so cringe and
I think I found it not too long ago.
We had like this. It wasn't like necessarily
awful, but it was just like, God, man would never.
I was just like thinking like whatever.
It's like I saw like some like old 90s villain.
I was like, oh, he's smoking a cigarette.
That'll be cool. Like, I don't know.
Bad ass. Yeah, that'll be bad ass man.
(25:23):
That'll show him who's means whomeans business.
But yeah, I know it's it's it's hard.
I I try not to watch too much ofmy too much of my stuff in
general anymore. No, I I don't.
Know. So I watch back my first promo
and then I watch back my first match.
And I was like, as I'm like critiquing it, I'm starting to
understand, like, oh, this is where we wanted to talk about
(25:46):
this. This is where we're talking
about this. And then I started kind of
understanding like the layers. And I started talk like I was
talking to my matches. If I was like coaching it over.
And I was like, there's some parts where I was like, yo, you
there, Start working your way up.
Like start talking to the crowd.Like get the crowd involved.
Like do this, do that. And then I watched like my most
recent match and I was like, oh,we're just doing that shit.
Just not yeah. Yeah.
It's like second nature. I mean, it becomes second
(26:07):
nature. It's you know what I mean?
It's, you know, it's like any other.
It's just the reps, the reps, the reps you know?
Yeah, I was just saying it has to be.
You have to be forced to fire like you.
Yeah, no, yeah, literally. Well, and it's even more crazy
because like, you know, it's, you know, it's a performance
art, you know what I mean? So you're literally like, you
get out there, you, you know, especially when you're, you
know, early starting out, you know what, 5 to 8, if that.
(26:29):
And it's like you're going in there and like, you got to do
all these things pretty much perfect, right?
To like not, you know, feel likeyou fucking suck, but.
But if you got to do it, boom, one shot and then you're like,
OK, then you got to wait, you know, a week or whatever the
hell a day they do it just another 5 minutes.
All that build up, all the travel, getting ready, prepping
mentally, all that stuff, all the nerves, that shit you got to
(26:51):
take beforehand, all the stuff you got to go over.
Then you get out to the ring andit's up to you if you right.
So it's it just getting outside the reps.
I mean, that's like I said, I bring it back to like how I
started off. It was literally like we had two
sessions a week before I even know how to take a fucking
proper bump. It was awful way to to start
off, mind you. No, no way, you know, gratifying
(27:12):
or, you know, like glorifying this at all.
But I was in battle Royals just getting the shit kicked out of
me. But I got to be in front of a
crowd, right. So it you know, before I even
had the fundamentals of wrestling, for the most part, I
knew kind of how to talk and be at least comfortable in front of
people when I'm wearing, you know, spandex and getting the
shit kicked out of me, right? So I had this like I had that
(27:34):
that comfortability. I think that's not a lot of
people talk about that in the beginning, especially with these
trainees nowadays. They don't talk about like it'll
take you a little bit of time tojust be comfortable in front of
a crowd. I mean, like at the very basis
of it, you can be doing a manager, you can be a fucking
ref. I mean, it's intimidating to be
in front of people expecting to be entertained, right?
That's not like a like normal thing for someone to just be
like, I don't know how to do this, right.
Like it's some people, it takes a little bit of time.
(27:57):
I mean, for people like us who are like attention whores, I
mean, it's a little easier, but like, you know what I mean?
But it's, it's tough. It's a tough thing to, like,
psychologically get through and then remember all the stuff that
you learned and have to do it onthe fly.
So like, yeah, our, our, our wayof being brought up, at least in
the beginning, before we, you know, when we learned this stuff
after it was very backwards. Yeah.
(28:18):
Like, here's here's pushed in front of a crowd, here's your
gimmick. And we're like, I don't know
what to do. And then it was like, OK, now
you learn, here you go, now you got to do it.
So it was. But the one thing that I, that I
take, I took from that, 'cause you got to find the silver
lining and all this shit, right?Is literally at least got to
know how to just feed off a crowd and work them and stuff
(28:38):
like that. So it was kind of helpful in
that regard, but wouldn't recommend that way to anyone
going into this. Well, I got, I got lucky.
So I started training in like January of 2020 and then like
the pandemic happened and so it shut everything down.
So all I meant I was just doing after like when May came around
was like the week after MemorialDay started getting back into
training again and just working and just training.
(29:00):
And then it became 2A day. So it'd be like a Saturday,
Sunday like I would be at I'd beat the right city compound like
working and then work practice matches.
And then I had my first match with big trouble band Bishop,
which it was just a quick squashgoal of fight squash match.
That's all it was. But after that, man, like then
it was just like, alright, let's, let's figure these things
(29:20):
out. And you know, and like you said,
man, like you, you go out there and you're like, I have to
figure out how to get in front of this crowd and like talk to
everybody and, and be OK with it.
And one of the things I learned was that, like, I just wasn't
comfortable in front of a camera.
So like, I had to like, learn. So Chaz and I start up a podcast
and then like, here we are, likecutting promos.
(29:42):
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Every. Day.
Right. Yeah.
And then, like, it's funny because you mentioned this,
right? So one of the things that one of
my bosses had just told me was that I am too comfortable
talking to strangers. He's like, you're too
comfortable. I was like, bro, I sit in a car
for seven hours. I drive to random places I have
(30:05):
in front of people and then I have to find a way to engage
those people. So yeah, I'm very comfortable
talking to strangers for no reason whatsoever.
It's like it's it's all because of pro wrestling and I I, I love
it was like it was a two way street.
I'll share this, I'll share it with you guys.
I'll share it with you too. I think we talked about this,
but you know, if it wasn't for 2017, my daughter calling me
(30:27):
squishy, squishy, like I wouldn't be doing all this like
I was, I was big. I got into the gym, I started
working out. I randomly met a dude who was
into pro wrestling. We started talking.
Then I found my way into pro wrestling.
And then like, you know, I I gotinto the gym.
I started really focusing on like building up strength and
endurance because I was like, I need to get better at all this
(30:49):
stuff and this thing after thingafter thing.
And then when I'm in front of a crowd now, it's like, you got to
engage this crowd. You got to talk to these people,
you got to tell them what's going on and you got to tell
this story of how everything's and you got to draw them in.
I'm like, I was just grateful that like that one moment
happened in 2017 because it changed my whole life.
Bro Yeah. I mean, I mean, yeah, it's crazy
(31:12):
how kids will do that to you. My first born, I yeah, literally
it was kind of the same deal. I mean, I had Griz, you know, he
started training at House of Pain.
You know, he went out of here before me, me and him weren't
even talking. You know, there's a guy known
for, you know, since 6th grade, you know, and we had it falling
out after high school. He had, you know, we've gone
through motion a couple years down the road, he started
(31:32):
wrestling. He literally messaged me
randomly on Facebook and was like, hey, man, like fuck the
beef. Like you need to come out.
And we talked about doing this as kids.
I'm coming. He attacked part of us do this,
like, let's let's do this. Just do the dream.
And I had just had my first born, and it was like, I
remember, I very vividly remember looking at him and
being like, this could be a moment where I can show him
forever that no dream is unattainable.
(31:54):
Even if I fail or whatever, at least I went for it.
And then maybe that's a teachable moment in itself.
So yeah, just kind of was on a whim off of that, just to kind
of show that, you know, my kids,you know, can shoot for
everything they want. Nothing should be crazy.
And like, anything they want is in this world can be for them.
So as long as they want it enough.
And you know, here I am going on12 years later, so doing it.
(32:17):
I'm over here, I'm over here. Like I still look at it.
I'm like, and so, you know, people ask me all the time.
They're like, what do you like? What's your hobbies?
I was like, well, I'm, I don't really, I was like, it's weird
to me because like this is no longer like a hobby, right?
Like I have been so next year inJanuary will be my 6th year,
right? I have been in doing pro
(32:37):
wrestling longer than I had beenin the military.
Like I was in the military for, you know, almost six years.
I'll be fair, like five years and like 11 months.
And I had like they had like 60 days of terminal leave.
So we'll call it 5 and 10. But like, I'm right there with
pro wrestling, like in a couple months, like it'll be, you know,
(32:58):
in October will be that 10 months.
And then I will officially have been in pro wrestling longer
than I was in the military. And it boggles it.
Like, it's crazy to think about and have I had like as many
matches as everybody else? No, but I'm OK with that.
Like, I enjoy just doing what I'm doing and just having fun
with everything that's going on.But I just think in the concept
(33:19):
of time, I'm like, whoa, dude. Like this is a lot that I've
gone through and a lot of stuff that I've done.
And just the way that, you know,pro wrestling is able to open
up, open you up to new opportunities without like,
being too afraid of it. It's cool.
I mean, at the very least you'remeeting new people.
I mean, I've got some of my friends that I've like, I call
(33:41):
my closest friends now that I'vemet through wrestling, you know
what I mean? Like, I've been to places I
probably never thought I would have been because of pro
wrestling, that's for sure. I've met different demographics
of the country, you know what I mean?
I've exposed myself to certain things like that.
So I mean, like, yeah, I mean the very least, you know, and
I've been able to pay some billslike that.
I mean, anything that's, you know, that'll pay a bill to me
(34:02):
is worth doing, like is if it pays something, if it helps out
the family some way, if you're, if you're, if you're
contributing and that way it's not a fucking hobby.
That's if it's not, if it's paying a bill, it ain't a hobby.
It's a job, right? But this job has taken it, you
know, it has a lot of up and downs.
I mean, granted, there's a lot, you know, long drives and you
know, being away from the family, it's tough stuff.
I mean, that's not like a cake walk, but it is open to a lot of
(34:23):
things, like you said, a lot of open doors and create a lot of
things that maybe you wouldn't have gone through if you weren't
in the business, right. So Nah, it's beautiful.
It's, it's, it can be the best and the worst.
That's why it's the best, right?Like it's got all of it in it.
Well, like Brutal Bob Evans always refers to it is like
wrestling has to have its own place.
Like it can't it consumed your whole life.
(34:46):
It's got to have its own compartment and you got to be
able to open that compartment, play with it when you want to
and then put it away. Because as soon as it becomes
like engulfing of your whole life, like then you're like, oh
man, I gotta do this, I gotta drive, I gotta do this, I gotta
do that, I gotta do this. And it just it, it can wear you
down. It can it can beat you down and
this business will beat you down.
So for those of you who are watching this for the first time
(35:06):
and trying to figure out what isgoing on, hey, like this
business, this business will it will just take from you and it
will not get it will give you itwill give you a lot of stuff,
but it will take a lot of stuff from you to like.
I have definitely met a bunch ofpeople in this business that I
have trusted more than I did in the military.
(35:27):
And it's weird to say that, but like, you're literally putting
your life in somebody else's hands and you're hoping that
they don't hurt you. Yeah.
Yeah, literally, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, like you
said, it's yeah, it'll, it'll take a lot.
But you know, the biggest thing is that, you know, wrestling
will never owe you anything. You know, it'll never owe you
anything. So everything that you do has to
be constant of what you want. Like if you actually want to do
(35:49):
this, you got to really love it to do it, because it will never
owe you nothing. It'll never, you know, you can
never ask it for anything more than what you put into it.
And that's in itself kind of like a, you know, more of a
metaphor for something bigger ishard work, right?
Like, I mean, that puts you in aplace that you have to kind of
get what you want out of it and be OK with the result, if it's
even not the result maybe you want.
(36:09):
But yeah, no, it's, it's, I guess it's, I love it.
I love it. I mean, it's been, it's been,
it's been good. It's been good.
Yeah, it's and it's. Getting more exciting and that's
and that's awesome too. It's just good.
I feel like for both of us, I mean, it's just getting more
exciting and better opportunities to come in and
stuff like that. So it's it's been awesome, man.
Yeah, I can't. I can't wait.
There's a lot of stuff going, coming down the pipe that I know
(36:30):
ain't granted. Things change, right?
You got to kind of stay fluid inthis business.
I this is one thing I tell people like, I'm very grateful I
was in the military because it taught me like the whole hurry
up and wait process, like hurry up and get to the finish line.
But like, wait, you got to wait.And so, like, this is what pro
wrestling does to you too. It makes you like, hurry up, get
to somewhere you got to be, but then you got to wait.
So like I'm always like, for sure, I've been ready for this
(36:53):
for a while. Like I've been for a long time.
And I've kind of like there's been like so much that I've been
able to include in in my character that is just me
because of like things that I'vegone through.
And I feel like if especially with good characters, like you
should be able to pour so much of yourself into something that
like when you're ready to divorce it, like you're never
(37:16):
really fully divorcing it. You're just like, yeah, it's
it's still like all of me, like I talk about this like red dog
character and I'm like, bro, when I'm ready to divorce Red
Dog, like it'll be Cliff, but you will see.
Like there was never much of a difference between Red Dog and
yeah. Yeah, no, that's yeah.
I mean, that's how you. That's how you yeah, I mean, OK,
(37:40):
so from you like the one thing II I've I've always like kind of
wondered because like I've knownyou as A tag team wrestler for a
long time, but I've also known you as a singles competitor for
maybe just a bit higher shy to that.
So made that transition from being like in the tag team to
Austin just like running solo. Like what were your biggest
(38:02):
challenges that you're running into?
And then like, how did you overcome those challenges?
I mean, so jeez, I mean, even think about now, I mean, it's
been about five years since me and Grizz were the part of the
dark horses. So it was right around like
maybe six months before COVID. I mean, it was, you know, I had,
we just we had the places that we were wrestling at the time.
(38:23):
I think it was, you know, you know, EWAATCWEPPW, we were doing
NWR for a little bit. I mean, we had just ran our I
feel like we multiple time champions in all of those
companies. And it got to a point when it
was like, are we going to just keep running this tag team
division? And like, I don't know, I don't
(38:44):
want to say it felt like gatekeeping, but it felt like we
were, we were there and we put in the work and we recognized as
like the best and blah, blah, blah.
And it was kind of a point to like, this is what we want to
do. Like for the next five years or
the next 10 years, you know, that we want to just only do tag
team wrestling. And we kind of want we both had
a, you know, very deep talk, I mean, well, deep talk after like
(39:05):
a 12 pack. But it was like, you know, kind
of just kind of laid it out like, hey, man, like what do we
want out of this? Right.
And you know, he's, you know, wehave our, our, our love of
wrestling together as a group, as a, as a, as a partnership,
but we also have love for wrestling a separate like big
Shawn Michaels guy loves Shawn Michaels.
I mean, this dude, you go into his room, you'll see all sorts
(39:27):
of shit. And you know what I mean?
Like I was big on the Rock and like Jericho and Eddie Guerrero
and stuff like this. So it was like, let's, let's see
what, what else we can do and not necessarily break up or like
do anything like drastic, but like, let's just separate for a
little bit like Triple H, Shawn Michaels, like let's just kind
of do our own thing, but together, but doing our own
thing. And we dabbled with that for a
while, right around, right around before Coke.
(39:50):
What's up it is your friendly neighborhood red dog and thank
you for checking out this episode of the three count
podcast whether or not was Chad's friends red dog friends
dating and friends to film stashdown into the ring now entering
201 or now returning to the ring.
You know all those good episodesyou should really be liking
commenting and even sharing thiswith your friends family,
whoever it may be. But what you all should be doing
is checking us out on all of oursocial media platforms at 3
(40:12):
count 5, whether that's on IG, Twitch, you know, you check us
out on threads, whatever may be and if.
Go check us out on X it is 3 count under score pod.
Check us out on YouTube as well as Facebook on rumble on Apple
Music, on Spotify, all those funthings you know, tell your mom
about us, your dad about us, your aunties, your unbles, your
brothers, sisters, your cousins and your best friends and your
enemies because we love haters too.
(40:34):
Do all that stuff and then, you know, last but not least by our
merge on for youwear.com O proratsmithuse.com kawaii.
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