January 20, 2025 • 28 mins
Who truly deserves the title of basketball's greatest of all time: Michael Jordan or LeBron James? Join me, D Turnipseed, as I tackle this electrifying debate with a bold assertion that LeBron might just be the GOAT. Through a meticulous examination of career stats, including his record-breaking point totals and impressive rankings in assists, steals, and three-point shots, I lay out a compelling case for LeBron's supremacy. Dive into the details of his stellar playoff performances and reflect on his four MVP awards and four championships, which underscore his sustained excellence and influence over a decade. This episode promises to unravel the layers of LeBron's basketball legacy, inviting you to weigh in on a topic that has captivated sports fans worldwide.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome in.
Welcome in to the Third DownConversation, your place for
sports and entertainment.
I am your host, d Turnip Seed,and this is episode number one.
Turnip Seed, and this isepisode number one.
Thank you for joining, thankyou for listening.
(00:31):
Thank you for listening Again.
This is the Third DownConversation and I am D Turnip
Seed, and on the Third DownConversation, we're about having
authentic conversations aboutsports and entertainment, but
we're about putting those thingsin proper context, because
(00:54):
without proper context, youcould form the wrong idea.
Therefore, we're going to keepit real, we're going to keep it
authentic and we're we gonnakeep it in context.
But this first episode, we willbe discussing who is the GOAT
Michael Jordan or LeBron Jamesand I'm here to tell you, folks,
(01:15):
it just might be LeBron James.
It just might be LeBron James.
But before you jump on me,before you get all upset, let me
make my case.
Let me make my case.
The four categories that I willhighlight will be career stats,
that's, regular season andplayoffs.
(01:36):
Awards and accolades LeBron'speak and clutch time, aka
winning time.
So let's jump into his overallcareer stats for the regular
season and the playoffs.
So, regular season wise, lebronJames is the all-time leader in
(02:00):
points scored, which is oddbecause LeBron isn't thought of
as this prolific scorer.
Most people would say MichaelJordan, kobe, kevin Durant.
As far as when it comes togetting a bucket, if you need a
bucket, those guys come first.
Some would even say CarmeloAnthony, like even LeBron James.
(02:25):
When they talk, talk about him,they mention his passing, they
mention his leadership.
They don't talk about him as ascorer.
So him being the all-timeleader in scoring is odd.
It's odd, but hey, lebron Jamesis the all-time leader in
points scored.
He's also top five in assistsand he's top ten in steals.
(02:52):
So Paul's right there.
Paul's right there.
He's top ten in three separatecategories.
No other player can say thatNot MJ, not Kobe.
No other player can say thatnot MJ, not Kobe.
As for what he is shooting fromthe field for his career in the
(03:15):
regular season, he's shooting 50percent, like that's centers
and power forwards they shootthat percentage.
And yes, lebron gets to thebasket, often plays a lot of
bully ball and probably shouldplay more bully ball, but he
takes his fair share ofmid-range shots and he takes a
lot of threes.
And yes, with how the game isplayed today, they all taking
(03:38):
threes, but LeBron is top 10 inthrees made all time, which is I
got to admit it's kind ofimpressive because personally I
don't believe LeBron can shoot.
I'm pretty sure that thescouting report says let LeBron
shoot, none say run him off thethree-point line and he's
(04:01):
adjusted, I mean.
So maybe those defensivestrategies need to change as
well, because he's making themLike he's making them.
Now let's examine his playoffstats.
As you know, playoffs winningtime teams are actually going to
play defense in the NBA duringthe playoffs.
(04:21):
So how has LeBron done all time?
Well, he's first in points.
He's second in assists.
He's first in steals.
He's top five in rebounds.
He's top 10 in blocks.
He is dominating.
It's pure domination.
(04:43):
Nobody else can say that.
The guy's pure domination.
Nobody else can say that.
The guy's doing everything.
He's not just a one-trick pony,he's doing it all.
And what is he shooting?
I'm glad you asked.
He's shooting 49% in theplayoffs for his career.
(05:05):
Let that sink in 49 in theplayoffs.
It screams goat.
Now let's transition to hisawards.
Lebron has four mvps.
He has four championships.
He has four finals mvps.
(05:28):
But the accolade to me that isthe most impressive is that he
is a 20 time all nba selection.
What does that mean?
It means that since he hit thedoor to enter the league, he has
(05:49):
been a top 15 player becausethe all NBA team there's a first
team, there's a second team,there's a third team.
There's only five players perteam.
He's been named to one of thoseteams 20 times.
He's in year 22 currently.
(06:15):
To put it into context Kobe wasan All-NBA selection 15 times.
He played 20 seasons.
Mj was an All-NBA selection 11times.
He played 20 seasons.
Mj was an all NBA selection 11times.
He played 15 seasons.
Lebron has missed being oneonly twice.
(06:35):
It's GOAT.
I see why Shannon Shark callshim GOAT James.
I mean, I see why the teammatesin the locker room making the
goat noises.
You've been a top 15 guy sinceyou hit the door, since you
entered.
Come on, man, hard day.
Hey, don't hate greatness,don't hate greatness.
(06:57):
Now let's move on to his peak.
Now I define peak as the pointwhere there was no doubt that
you were the best player in theleague.
At that point it's like okay,your peak is now started, until
(07:18):
the point where some peoplestart to say there's some
slippage.
You're not as good as you oncewere and, in my opinion, lebron
James had a 10-year peak.
He ran the league from 2011until 2021.
(07:42):
And, yes, lebron won the MVP in2009 and 2010.
However, kobe won back-to-backNBA finals in 2009 and 2010.
So, in my opinion, kobe was thebetter guy at that point in
time.
(08:03):
And that's no slight towardsLeBron, because during his peak
that I just listed, from 2011until 2021, steph Curry won two
MVPs during that time.
But that didn't make Stephbetter than LeBron and, for the
record, he wasn't.
(08:23):
And I'm a Steph fan and I'm aSteph fan.
I'm a Steph fan, but Steph wasnot better than LeBron at that
time.
So, during his peak, lebron wontwo MVPs.
He got all his championshipsduring that time.
He got the finals MVPs duringthat time.
(08:43):
He got, you know, the finalsMVPs during that time.
But, most importantly, he cameback from 3-1 down to the 73-win
Warriors and, man, that hurt me.
Again, I'm a Steph fan.
I was pulling for Steph, likeI'm pulling for Steph Pulling
(09:05):
for Klay.
They light-skinned, I'mlight-skinned.
We got to stick together.
So I'm pulling for him.
That series.
But games five, six and sevenLeBron was incredible.
I mean game five he drops 41,11 assists, eight rebounds.
(09:31):
Game six he drops 41, 10assists, eight rebounds.
Game seven, he drops 27, 11,and, yes, kyrie deserves more
credit for that series.
(09:53):
He was phenomenal as well, butwe all know that LeBron was the
head of the snake of the calves.
That block he had on Iggy inGame 7?
Legendary, legendary, and noone else can say they've done
(10:14):
something like that.
Everyone counted him out.
And to come back, man, goat,goat James.
I can hear Shannon Sharpscreaming now, goat James got a
little goat mask on andeverything.
Goat James.
And it's hard to argue.
It's hard to argue.
Now let's move on to clutch time.
(10:35):
The NBA defines clutch time asthe final five minutes of the
fourth quarter or overtime, whenthe score is within five points
.
So how does LeBron performduring this moment of the game?
Skip Bayless would tell youthat LeBron was not born with
the clutch gene.
(10:55):
That's what Skip would tell you.
Well, what do the numbers say?
What do the numbers say?
The numbers say that in theregular season, lebron is
shooting 51% in clutch time.
51% in the playoffs oh theplayoffs he is shooting 52%
(11:21):
during clutch time.
So he gets better.
Like he gets better.
Like he gets better, he getsbetter.
Let's take it a step further.
In the regular season, lebronJames has the second most made
(11:45):
game winning shots, but I gotone more for you.
In the playoffs, lebron has themost game winning shots.
So let me get this straight Hisoverall stats regular season
and playoffs he's dominatingeverybody.
(12:09):
His awards and accolades arevery comparable to MJ.
During his peak, he came backand beat the greatest team ever
assembled in the Golden StateWarriors, who won 73 games.
And he's clutch.
(12:30):
He does, in fact, have theclutch gene.
So how can you sit here and tellme that he's not the GOAT?
Well, when I come back, I'mgoing to explain to you how he's
not the GOAT, but first, pleasedo me a favor and hit that
(12:53):
subscribe button.
Shows drop every Tuesday and Iwant you guys along for the ride
.
Also, follow me on Twitter andInstagram at the Third Down
Conversation.
This podcast can be found onSpotify, apple, google or
wherever else that you findpodcasts.
(13:15):
Now let's jump back into theshow and start our next
conversation.
This second segment will beabout why LeBron James is not
the GOAT, and a lot of it willcome down to putting things into
proper context.
So let's start back in 2008.
(13:37):
Back in 2008, lebron was stillwith the Cavaliers.
He was in the final two yearsof his deal, the media would
tell you those Cavaliers teamswere no good and that he left
for Miami because those teams inCleveland just couldn't get it
(14:01):
done.
The 08-09 season the Cavalierswon 66 games.
In 09 and 2010, the Cavalierswon 61 games In 08,.
They made the EasternConference Finals.
In 09, they made the secondround of the playoffs.
(14:26):
During the playoffs for both ofthose seasons the Cavs had at
least three players to averagedouble figures in scoring for
the playoffs.
Why is that significant?
From 2003 to 2010, the teamthat won the NBA Finals had at
(14:48):
least three players to averagedouble digits in scoring Every
team that won from 03 to 2010.
The Cavs also had that.
So they had enough.
But LeBron bolts and goes andtakes his talents to South Beach
(15:11):
, joins D-Wade and Chris Boshand at that time Chris Bosh was
a top five scorer in the leagueand D-Wade was a top ten scorer
in the league.
That Wade was a top 10 score inthe league.
That's some serious talent onone team.
They in fact formed the firstsuper team.
Now LeBron fans in the mediawill say no, the first super
(15:36):
team was the Boston Celtics PaulPierce, kg and Ray Allen.
They were a big three.
Yes, no, super team.
All of those guys were over 30and clearly out of their prime.
Braun, wade and Bosh were justentering their prime, which is
(16:01):
why it was called a super team,their prime, which is why it was
called a super team.
So you need that kind of help toget your first championship.
Mj didn't need that.
Scottie Pippen was drafted andMJ brought Scottie along.
Kobe didn't need that.
The Lakers didn't need that.
(16:23):
The Lakers didn't win with Shaquntil Kobe started doing what
he was doing.
But you go to the Heat.
You win a bunch of games, asexpected.
You make the finals, you playthe Dallas Mavericks, dirk
Nowinski, and you lose in sixgames.
You and you lose in six games.
(16:44):
You don't only lose in sixgames.
You have a horrible series.
Some would say you choked.
I wouldn't go that far.
I don't think you choked,definitely didn't play well and
the pressure got to you.
I mean, in one of those gamesin the finals against the Mavs,
(17:07):
lebron only scores eight points.
That's wild.
How do you succumb to that kindof pressure?
That's why they said D-Wade hadto show you how to win, while
you got guys like MJ and Kobewho did it the hard way.
They didn't have anyone showthem the ropes, they went and
(17:27):
did it themselves.
But the next year you finallyget that elusive championship
and to the Heat's credit,lebron's credit, you go back to
back, even though the Spurs hadyou on the ropes.
But then you play the Spursagain.
And what happened that time?
The Spurs beat D-Way, bosh andLeBron in five games and set a
(17:53):
new league record for pointdifferential in the finals.
What does that mean?
Point differential is all aboutthe amount of points scored
versus the amount of pointsallowed.
Versus the amount of pointsallowed, the Spurs beat the Heat
by 21, by 20, by 19, and by 15.
(18:19):
In other words, the games werenot close.
They were blowing the Heat out.
And if you look at the stats,wade did not play well.
Wade didn't play well at all.
But again, if you are who youclaim to be, you got to get that
done.
You for sure can't get blowedout.
(18:40):
At least make it competitive,right.
That Heat team underachieved.
Lebron gets there and claimsthey're going to win five
championships.
He only get two.
He let the Spurs run you out ofthe building.
So when that experiment startsto break down, you're ready to
bolt and the media would tellyou that, oh, he just wants to
(19:07):
go home.
He just wants to go home, backto Cleveland, just wants to go
home, back to Cleveland.
But it was real ironic that theCavs had a superstar in the
making and Kyrie Irving at thetime.
So you leave, you go back toCleveland, you team up with
Kyrie and then you have the Cavstrade for Kevin Love, who at
(19:27):
the time was a top five score inthe league.
People don't realize just howgood Kevin Love was as a player.
When he got to the Cavs hebecame more of a third wheel.
Kevin Love was a really goodplayer.
So you leave the Heat and thenyou go form another super team
(19:51):
in Cleveland.
If my map is correct, you formtwo super teams.
That doesn't scream go.
It does scream stacking thedeck, making it hard for me to
lose.
It screams that LeBron has fourchampionships and that's
honestly a good number.
(20:12):
But the reason why it won't puta dent in five, which Kobe has,
or six, which MJ has, isbecause LeBron doesn't have a
three-peat.
I truly feel like if he had athree-peat in those four
championships, it would meanmore, like it would almost give
(20:34):
him a little bump.
The reason why MJ and Kobe areso like superior to his four.
Yes, it's more, but they gotthree-peats, kobe's got one,
mj's got two, so his four thatcame so spread out, in a sense
(20:56):
it loses some luster compared tothose two guys Also having a
losing record in the finals.
It doesn't help his caseBecause, again, it's about
winning.
You can have the stats, you canhave the accolades, but if
(21:16):
you're not winning, then what isit all for?
Especially when I feel like ifBron is as good as he say he is,
he shouldn't have a losingrecord in the finals.
Lebron himself said after hecame back on the Warriors that
that made him the GOAT.
That's obviously not true.
It's not true because he thenloses to Steph and KD multiple
(21:42):
times and some people will say,well, that was a super team and
was.
I didn't like that move byKevin Durant, but I blame the
fans and the media, because whenLeBron did it they killed him
for going to the heat, but assoon as he won they forgot all
about it.
So Kevin Durant figured thatcan work for me too.
(22:06):
So he did what LeBron did, butdid it better, a better version
of it, and unfortunately LeBronkind of paid the price, because
this is what he started.
I'm gonna go link up.
I'm gonna go join up.
It's hard to walk around sayingI'm the GOAT, yet when you get
(22:27):
to the finals you can't get thejob done.
A lot of his fans will point tolebron's longevity as to why
he's a goat, but longevity hasnever been used to bolster that
point, mainly because scienceevolves.
(22:47):
Things change.
We learn more, which helps usbetter prepare.
Which is why, when it comes tothis GOAT debate, it's all about
peak.
And during LeBron's peak, stephCurry got three championships
on him.
He went up against LeBron toget those championships and
(23:09):
that's why that point matters.
It wasn't that LeBron didn'tthose championships, and that's
why that point matters.
It wasn't that LeBron didn'tmake it.
They faced each other.
He won.
So during your peak, anotherguy beat you head to head.
How are you to go?
(23:32):
And recently, lebron James justpassed MJ in total 30-point
games.
It took LeBron seven extrayears to pass MJ.
A lot of his fans and the mediaare really hyping that up, but
that's more of a feather in MJ'scap that it took you an extra
(23:56):
seven seasons just to catch him.
I mean, that's something to becelebrated, no doubt, like no
doubt, but to make it seem like,oh, he passed MJ.
Well, it took you seven extraseasons.
So, yes, it is anaccomplishment, but keep it in
perspective.
Keep it in perspective.
(24:17):
So the last thing I would liketo hit on as to why Braun is not
the GOAT deals with D-Wade,sports media and his fans.
Sports media and his fans.
D-way stated on a podcast thatthe big three in Miami which
(24:39):
really is a super team, as we'vealready discussed came together
due to Kobe Bryant.
He stated that in 2010, whenKobe won his fifth championship,
that he was tired of seeingKobe win, so he got brawn and
(25:01):
botched on the phone and that'swhen joining up and playing
together all started to kind ofform up.
And that's just so odd, becausesports media and LeBron fans
would tell you that the bigthree in Boston, they came
together to stop LeBron and theyused that to show you how great
(25:27):
LeBron is.
So what does that mean for Kobe, when you got the likes of
LeBron, wade and Bosh comingtogether to stop him?
As for the sports media and hisfans, when he wins, it's all him
(25:48):
.
When he loses, he doesn't haveenough help.
It never fails the amount oftimes the media or fans or
(26:11):
whatever organization he'splaying for, has scapegoated a
player, a coach.
It's ridiculous.
I did not hear or see when Kobewas playing that he didn't have
enough help, and he's out therewith dudes named Smush Parker.
Y'all don't even know who thatis.
That's my point.
Or MJ ain't got enough?
Like that wasn't the narrative.
It was that they gotta get itdone, got to get it done, they
(26:31):
got to get it done.
But for LeBron the rules aredifferent.
It's oh, he needs more help oroh, he's so great.
Look at him.
Never to blame.
It's like the media and fanswant LeBron to be the GOAT
Pressure and the expectationsthat come along with that.
They try to bail him out.
Now, don't get it twisted.
(26:55):
Lebron is an all-time great.
He's a Mount Rushmore playerand, for me, easily top five.
I know he's one of the bestever.
Those stats I was talking aboutearlier honestly were
incredible and a lot of themshocked me.
I completely understand whysomeone would make the case as
(27:19):
to why he is the greatest, butwhen you really break it down
and look through it which mostpeople won't you can see why
he's not the greatest.
But that doesn't mean he isn'tgreat.
All right, peeps, this willconclude our first episode.
(27:41):
Please leave a comment and letme know who you think is the
greatest.
Also, leave a review andremember this is the Third Down
Conversation.
Episodes will drop everyTuesday.
We keep it real, we keep itauthentic and we keep it in
context.
Jesus loves you and I'm you.
Welcome in.
Welcome in to the Third DownConversation, your place for
sports and entertainment.
I am your host, d Turnip Seed,and this is episode number one.
Turnip Seed, and this isepisode number one.
Thank you for joining, thankyou for listening.
(00:31):
Thank you for listening Again.
This is the Third DownConversation and I am D Turnip
Seed, and on the Third DownConversation, we're about having
authentic conversations aboutsports and entertainment, but
we're about putting those thingsin proper context, because
(00:54):
without proper context, youcould form the wrong idea.
Therefore, we're going to keepit real, we're going to keep it
authentic and we're we gonnakeep it in context.
But this first episode, we willbe discussing who is the GOAT
Michael Jordan or LeBron Jamesand I'm here to tell you, folks,
(01:15):
it just might be LeBron James.
It just might be LeBron James.
But before you jump on me,before you get all upset, let me
make my case.
Let me make my case.
The four categories that I willhighlight will be career stats,
that's, regular season andplayoffs.
(01:36):
Awards and accolades LeBron'speak and clutch time, aka
winning time.
So let's jump into his overallcareer stats for the regular
season and the playoffs.
So, regular season wise, lebronJames is the all-time leader in
(02:00):
points scored, which is oddbecause LeBron isn't thought of
as this prolific scorer.
Most people would say MichaelJordan, kobe, kevin Durant.
As far as when it comes togetting a bucket, if you need a
bucket, those guys come first.
Some would even say CarmeloAnthony, like even LeBron James.
(02:25):
When they talk, talk about him,they mention his passing, they
mention his leadership.
They don't talk about him as ascorer.
So him being the all-timeleader in scoring is odd.
It's odd, but hey, lebron Jamesis the all-time leader in
points scored.
He's also top five in assistsand he's top ten in steals.
(02:52):
So Paul's right there.
Paul's right there.
He's top ten in three separatecategories.
No other player can say thatNot MJ, not Kobe.
No other player can say thatnot MJ, not Kobe.
As for what he is shooting fromthe field for his career in the
(03:15):
regular season, he's shooting 50percent, like that's centers
and power forwards they shootthat percentage.
And yes, lebron gets to thebasket, often plays a lot of
bully ball and probably shouldplay more bully ball, but he
takes his fair share ofmid-range shots and he takes a
lot of threes.
And yes, with how the game isplayed today, they all taking
(03:38):
threes, but LeBron is top 10 inthrees made all time, which is I
got to admit it's kind ofimpressive because personally I
don't believe LeBron can shoot.
I'm pretty sure that thescouting report says let LeBron
shoot, none say run him off thethree-point line and he's
(04:01):
adjusted, I mean.
So maybe those defensivestrategies need to change as
well, because he's making themLike he's making them.
Now let's examine his playoffstats.
As you know, playoffs winningtime teams are actually going to
play defense in the NBA duringthe playoffs.
(04:21):
So how has LeBron done all time?
Well, he's first in points.
He's second in assists.
He's first in steals.
He's top five in rebounds.
He's top 10 in blocks.
He is dominating.
It's pure domination.
(04:43):
Nobody else can say that.
The guy's pure domination.
Nobody else can say that.
The guy's doing everything.
He's not just a one-trick pony,he's doing it all.
And what is he shooting?
I'm glad you asked.
He's shooting 49% in theplayoffs for his career.
(05:05):
Let that sink in 49 in theplayoffs.
It screams goat.
Now let's transition to hisawards.
Lebron has four mvps.
He has four championships.
He has four finals mvps.
(05:28):
But the accolade to me that isthe most impressive is that he
is a 20 time all nba selection.
What does that mean?
It means that since he hit thedoor to enter the league, he has
(05:49):
been a top 15 player becausethe all NBA team there's a first
team, there's a second team,there's a third team.
There's only five players perteam.
He's been named to one of thoseteams 20 times.
He's in year 22 currently.
(06:15):
To put it into context Kobe wasan All-NBA selection 15 times.
He played 20 seasons.
Mj was an All-NBA selection 11times.
He played 20 seasons.
Mj was an all NBA selection 11times.
He played 15 seasons.
Lebron has missed being oneonly twice.
(06:35):
It's GOAT.
I see why Shannon Shark callshim GOAT James.
I mean, I see why the teammatesin the locker room making the
goat noises.
You've been a top 15 guy sinceyou hit the door, since you
entered.
Come on, man, hard day.
Hey, don't hate greatness,don't hate greatness.
(06:57):
Now let's move on to his peak.
Now I define peak as the pointwhere there was no doubt that
you were the best player in theleague.
At that point it's like okay,your peak is now started, until
(07:18):
the point where some peoplestart to say there's some
slippage.
You're not as good as you oncewere and, in my opinion, lebron
James had a 10-year peak.
He ran the league from 2011until 2021.
(07:42):
And, yes, lebron won the MVP in2009 and 2010.
However, kobe won back-to-backNBA finals in 2009 and 2010.
So, in my opinion, kobe was thebetter guy at that point in
time.
(08:03):
And that's no slight towardsLeBron, because during his peak
that I just listed, from 2011until 2021, steph Curry won two
MVPs during that time.
But that didn't make Stephbetter than LeBron and, for the
record, he wasn't.
(08:23):
And I'm a Steph fan and I'm aSteph fan.
I'm a Steph fan, but Steph wasnot better than LeBron at that
time.
So, during his peak, lebron wontwo MVPs.
He got all his championshipsduring that time.
He got the finals MVPs duringthat time.
(08:43):
He got, you know, the finalsMVPs during that time.
But, most importantly, he cameback from 3-1 down to the 73-win
Warriors and, man, that hurt me.
Again, I'm a Steph fan.
I was pulling for Steph, likeI'm pulling for Steph Pulling
(09:05):
for Klay.
They light-skinned, I'mlight-skinned.
We got to stick together.
So I'm pulling for him.
That series.
But games five, six and sevenLeBron was incredible.
I mean game five he drops 41,11 assists, eight rebounds.
(09:31):
Game six he drops 41, 10assists, eight rebounds.
Game seven, he drops 27, 11,and, yes, kyrie deserves more
credit for that series.
(09:53):
He was phenomenal as well, butwe all know that LeBron was the
head of the snake of the calves.
That block he had on Iggy inGame 7?
Legendary, legendary, and noone else can say they've done
(10:14):
something like that.
Everyone counted him out.
And to come back, man, goat,goat James.
I can hear Shannon Sharpscreaming now, goat James got a
little goat mask on andeverything.
Goat James.
And it's hard to argue.
It's hard to argue.
Now let's move on to clutch time.
(10:35):
The NBA defines clutch time asthe final five minutes of the
fourth quarter or overtime, whenthe score is within five points
.
So how does LeBron performduring this moment of the game?
Skip Bayless would tell youthat LeBron was not born with
the clutch gene.
(10:55):
That's what Skip would tell you.
Well, what do the numbers say?
What do the numbers say?
The numbers say that in theregular season, lebron is
shooting 51% in clutch time.
51% in the playoffs oh theplayoffs he is shooting 52%
(11:21):
during clutch time.
So he gets better.
Like he gets better.
Like he gets better, he getsbetter.
Let's take it a step further.
In the regular season, lebronJames has the second most made
(11:45):
game winning shots, but I gotone more for you.
In the playoffs, lebron has themost game winning shots.
So let me get this straight Hisoverall stats regular season
and playoffs he's dominatingeverybody.
(12:09):
His awards and accolades arevery comparable to MJ.
During his peak, he came backand beat the greatest team ever
assembled in the Golden StateWarriors, who won 73 games.
And he's clutch.
(12:30):
He does, in fact, have theclutch gene.
So how can you sit here and tellme that he's not the GOAT?
Well, when I come back, I'mgoing to explain to you how he's
not the GOAT, but first, pleasedo me a favor and hit that
(12:53):
subscribe button.
Shows drop every Tuesday and Iwant you guys along for the ride
.
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Conversation.
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wherever else that you findpodcasts.
(13:15):
Now let's jump back into theshow and start our next
conversation.
This second segment will beabout why LeBron James is not
the GOAT, and a lot of it willcome down to putting things into
proper context.
So let's start back in 2008.
(13:37):
Back in 2008, lebron was stillwith the Cavaliers.
He was in the final two yearsof his deal, the media would
tell you those Cavaliers teamswere no good and that he left
for Miami because those teams inCleveland just couldn't get it
(14:01):
done.
The 08-09 season the Cavalierswon 66 games.
In 09 and 2010, the Cavalierswon 61 games In 08,.
They made the EasternConference Finals.
In 09, they made the secondround of the playoffs.
(14:26):
During the playoffs for both ofthose seasons the Cavs had at
least three players to averagedouble figures in scoring for
the playoffs.
Why is that significant?
From 2003 to 2010, the teamthat won the NBA Finals had at
(14:48):
least three players to averagedouble digits in scoring Every
team that won from 03 to 2010.
The Cavs also had that.
So they had enough.
But LeBron bolts and goes andtakes his talents to South Beach
(15:11):
, joins D-Wade and Chris Boshand at that time Chris Bosh was
a top five scorer in the leagueand D-Wade was a top ten scorer
in the league.
That Wade was a top 10 score inthe league.
That's some serious talent onone team.
They in fact formed the firstsuper team.
Now LeBron fans in the mediawill say no, the first super
(15:36):
team was the Boston Celtics PaulPierce, kg and Ray Allen.
They were a big three.
Yes, no, super team.
All of those guys were over 30and clearly out of their prime.
Braun, wade and Bosh were justentering their prime, which is
(16:01):
why it was called a super team,their prime, which is why it was
called a super team.
So you need that kind of help toget your first championship.
Mj didn't need that.
Scottie Pippen was drafted andMJ brought Scottie along.
Kobe didn't need that.
The Lakers didn't need that.
(16:23):
The Lakers didn't win with Shaquntil Kobe started doing what
he was doing.
But you go to the Heat.
You win a bunch of games, asexpected.
You make the finals, you playthe Dallas Mavericks, dirk
Nowinski, and you lose in sixgames.
You and you lose in six games.
(16:44):
You don't only lose in sixgames.
You have a horrible series.
Some would say you choked.
I wouldn't go that far.
I don't think you choked,definitely didn't play well and
the pressure got to you.
I mean, in one of those gamesin the finals against the Mavs,
(17:07):
lebron only scores eight points.
That's wild.
How do you succumb to that kindof pressure?
That's why they said D-Wade hadto show you how to win, while
you got guys like MJ and Kobewho did it the hard way.
They didn't have anyone showthem the ropes, they went and
(17:27):
did it themselves.
But the next year you finallyget that elusive championship
and to the Heat's credit,lebron's credit, you go back to
back, even though the Spurs hadyou on the ropes.
But then you play the Spursagain.
And what happened that time?
The Spurs beat D-Way, bosh andLeBron in five games and set a
(17:53):
new league record for pointdifferential in the finals.
What does that mean?
Point differential is all aboutthe amount of points scored
versus the amount of pointsallowed.
Versus the amount of pointsallowed, the Spurs beat the Heat
by 21, by 20, by 19, and by 15.
(18:19):
In other words, the games werenot close.
They were blowing the Heat out.
And if you look at the stats,wade did not play well.
Wade didn't play well at all.
But again, if you are who youclaim to be, you got to get that
done.
You for sure can't get blowedout.
(18:40):
At least make it competitive,right.
That Heat team underachieved.
Lebron gets there and claimsthey're going to win five
championships.
He only get two.
He let the Spurs run you out ofthe building.
So when that experiment startsto break down, you're ready to
bolt and the media would tellyou that, oh, he just wants to
(19:07):
go home.
He just wants to go home, backto Cleveland, just wants to go
home, back to Cleveland.
But it was real ironic that theCavs had a superstar in the
making and Kyrie Irving at thetime.
So you leave, you go back toCleveland, you team up with
Kyrie and then you have the Cavstrade for Kevin Love, who at
(19:27):
the time was a top five score inthe league.
People don't realize just howgood Kevin Love was as a player.
When he got to the Cavs hebecame more of a third wheel.
Kevin Love was a really goodplayer.
So you leave the Heat and thenyou go form another super team
(19:51):
in Cleveland.
If my map is correct, you formtwo super teams.
That doesn't scream go.
It does scream stacking thedeck, making it hard for me to
lose.
It screams that LeBron has fourchampionships and that's
honestly a good number.
(20:12):
But the reason why it won't puta dent in five, which Kobe has,
or six, which MJ has, isbecause LeBron doesn't have a
three-peat.
I truly feel like if he had athree-peat in those four
championships, it would meanmore, like it would almost give
(20:34):
him a little bump.
The reason why MJ and Kobe areso like superior to his four.
Yes, it's more, but they gotthree-peats, kobe's got one,
mj's got two, so his four thatcame so spread out, in a sense
(20:56):
it loses some luster compared tothose two guys Also having a
losing record in the finals.
It doesn't help his caseBecause, again, it's about
winning.
You can have the stats, you canhave the accolades, but if
(21:16):
you're not winning, then what isit all for?
Especially when I feel like ifBron is as good as he say he is,
he shouldn't have a losingrecord in the finals.
Lebron himself said after hecame back on the Warriors that
that made him the GOAT.
That's obviously not true.
It's not true because he thenloses to Steph and KD multiple
(21:42):
times and some people will say,well, that was a super team and
was.
I didn't like that move byKevin Durant, but I blame the
fans and the media, because whenLeBron did it they killed him
for going to the heat, but assoon as he won they forgot all
about it.
So Kevin Durant figured thatcan work for me too.
(22:06):
So he did what LeBron did, butdid it better, a better version
of it, and unfortunately LeBronkind of paid the price, because
this is what he started.
I'm gonna go link up.
I'm gonna go join up.
It's hard to walk around sayingI'm the GOAT, yet when you get
(22:27):
to the finals you can't get thejob done.
A lot of his fans will point tolebron's longevity as to why
he's a goat, but longevity hasnever been used to bolster that
point, mainly because scienceevolves.
(22:47):
Things change.
We learn more, which helps usbetter prepare.
Which is why, when it comes tothis GOAT debate, it's all about
peak.
And during LeBron's peak, stephCurry got three championships
on him.
He went up against LeBron toget those championships and
(23:09):
that's why that point matters.
It wasn't that LeBron didn'tthose championships, and that's
why that point matters.
It wasn't that LeBron didn'tmake it.
They faced each other.
He won.
So during your peak, anotherguy beat you head to head.
How are you to go?
(23:32):
And recently, lebron James justpassed MJ in total 30-point
games.
It took LeBron seven extrayears to pass MJ.
A lot of his fans and the mediaare really hyping that up, but
that's more of a feather in MJ'scap that it took you an extra
(23:56):
seven seasons just to catch him.
I mean, that's something to becelebrated, no doubt, like no
doubt, but to make it seem like,oh, he passed MJ.
Well, it took you seven extraseasons.
So, yes, it is anaccomplishment, but keep it in
perspective.
Keep it in perspective.
(24:17):
So the last thing I would liketo hit on as to why Braun is not
the GOAT deals with D-Wade,sports media and his fans.
Sports media and his fans.
D-way stated on a podcast thatthe big three in Miami which
(24:39):
really is a super team, as we'vealready discussed came together
due to Kobe Bryant.
He stated that in 2010, whenKobe won his fifth championship,
that he was tired of seeingKobe win, so he got brawn and
(25:01):
botched on the phone and that'swhen joining up and playing
together all started to kind ofform up.
And that's just so odd, becausesports media and LeBron fans
would tell you that the bigthree in Boston, they came
together to stop LeBron and theyused that to show you how great
(25:27):
LeBron is.
So what does that mean for Kobe, when you got the likes of
LeBron, wade and Bosh comingtogether to stop him?
As for the sports media and hisfans, when he wins, it's all him
(25:48):
.
When he loses, he doesn't haveenough help.
It never fails the amount oftimes the media or fans or
(26:11):
whatever organization he'splaying for, has scapegoated a
player, a coach.
It's ridiculous.
I did not hear or see when Kobewas playing that he didn't have
enough help, and he's out therewith dudes named Smush Parker.
Y'all don't even know who thatis.
That's my point.
Or MJ ain't got enough?
Like that wasn't the narrative.
It was that they gotta get itdone, got to get it done, they
(26:31):
got to get it done.
But for LeBron the rules aredifferent.
It's oh, he needs more help oroh, he's so great.
Look at him.
Never to blame.
It's like the media and fanswant LeBron to be the GOAT
Pressure and the expectationsthat come along with that.
They try to bail him out.
Now, don't get it twisted.
(26:55):
Lebron is an all-time great.
He's a Mount Rushmore playerand, for me, easily top five.
I know he's one of the bestever.
Those stats I was talking aboutearlier honestly were
incredible and a lot of themshocked me.
I completely understand whysomeone would make the case as
(27:19):
to why he is the greatest, butwhen you really break it down
and look through it which mostpeople won't you can see why
he's not the greatest.
But that doesn't mean he isn'tgreat.
All right, peeps, this willconclude our first episode.
(27:41):
Please leave a comment and letme know who you think is the
greatest.
Also, leave a review andremember this is the Third Down
Conversation.
Episodes will drop everyTuesday.
We keep it real, we keep itauthentic and we keep it in
context.
Jesus loves you and I'm you.
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