April 7, 2024 • 22 mins
Every year, world leaders convene at the UN Climate Change Conference to discuss the urgency of climate change and the need for equitable, people-centred solutions. Could Social and Behaviour Change (SBC) have the chops to tackle such a massive challenge? Can SBC shed some light on the age-old debate on individual change versus system change to reduce emissions?
In this episode, Qali speaks with experts to understand what SBC can tell us about how to navigate an issue that affects us all, but certainly not in the same ways.
Guests (in order of appearance)
- Mónica Wills-Silva, Director of International Programmes EMEA at the Behavioural Insights Team
- Kash Ramli, Senior Advisor for Behavioral Science at UNICEF
- Xaher Gul, Public Health Physician and Development Practitioner
- Jon Bonifacio, Environmental Activist and National Coordinator of Kalikasan People's Network for the Environment
- Georgina Avlonitis, Urban Ecologist and Programme Manager at UNEP
Resources (in order of mention)
- Climate Change Fact sheet (WHO)
- António Guterres’s Speech at COP27
- How to build a Net Zero society
- William Ruto’s Speech at COP28
- Kalikasan People's Network for the Environment
The views and opinions expressed by the contributors are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of UNICEF or any entities they represent. The content here is for information purposes only.
The ABCs of SBC is hosted by Qali Id and produced and developed by Helena Ballester Bon in partnership with Common Thread.
Check out UNICEF’s latest publication on Social and Behaviour Change, Why don’t you just behave! For more information about UNICEF SBC, check out the programme guidance.
We care about what you think — you can share your thoughts on the podcast using this feedback form. For all other inquiries, please contact sbc@unicef.org.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Georgina Avlonitis (00:07):
You know, there's the age
old saying that the, theraindrop doesn't believe it's
responsible for the flood.
And, and it is about garneringthat connection to something
much bigger than yourself.
And how to do that isobviously the, this thing
we're all struggling with asenvironmental practitioners and
communicators and advocators.
(00:28):
But I think firstof all, changing the
world should be fun.
Qali Id (00:35):
What is the role of communities to address a
crisis that they didn't create?
Can individuals and communitieseven make a dent in the
global climate crisis?
Or are we just at the mercy ofcorporations and governments
to implement and followthrough on initiatives that
effectively turn the tides?
Welcome to the ABCs of SBC,where we break down what Social
(00:56):
and Behaviour Change is andhow it might help us tackle
some of the biggest issuesthreatening future generations.
I'm Qali Id, and in this episodewe'll be discussing a challenge
that affects all of us, butcertainly not in the same ways.
2023 was the hottest yearon record, with extreme
weather related eventsall over the globe.
(01:17):
Where I live in Kenya, we'veexperienced years of severe
droughts in the Horn of Africa,leaving millions of people
displaced and food insecure.
At COP 27, UN SecretaryGeneral Antonio Guterres
captured the urgency of theclimate crisis well, when
he said, We are on a highway
António Guterres (01:35):
to climate hell with our foot
still on the accelerator.
The clock is ticking.
We are in the fight of ourlives and we are losing.
Greenhouse gasemissions keep growing.
Global temperatures keep rising.
And our planet is fastapproaching tipping points
(01:57):
that will make climatechaos irreversible.
Qali Id (02:01):
And since then, the world continues to
drive in the fast lane.
According to the WorldHealth Organization,
research has shown that 3.
6 billion people already livein areas highly susceptible
to climate change, andbetween 2030 and 2050,
climate change is expected tocause approximately 250, 000
(02:22):
additional deaths per yearfrom undernutrition, malaria,
diarrhea, and heat stress alone.
Given these colossal numbers,It's hard to imagine that
recycling my coffee cup orturning down my air conditioning
is going to make the differencebetween a climate disaster
and a world in which thenext generation can thrive.
So here's Monica Will Silva,a behavioral scientist at the
(02:44):
Behavioral Insights team, totell us about how SBC can have
an impact in the climate crisis.
Monica Wills-Silva (02:50):
We recently published a report
on how can we apply behavioralsciences to get to net zero.
And one of the things thatwe've been looking within that
is the stats that the climatechange committees release that
basically shows that about62 percent of what we want to
achieve in terms of emissionreductions could be achieved
(03:11):
through behavioral change.
Be that things like adoptionof new technologies, like
electric vehicles, heat pumps,like making, homes energy
efficient or things likelifestyle changes, like eating
less meat and less dairy,being more active and so on.
62%.
So what is standing in our way?
(03:31):
We found in our research thatif you ask people, nine out of
10 people will tell you thatthey actually want to engage
in more sustainable ways ofliving and that they want to
adopt some of these behaviours.
But simultaneously, whatwe find is that there's
still lots of barriers.
In the, say, build environmentin the space around them, and
like very small things, verysmall frictions that might
(03:53):
decrease those behaviours.
So there's a lot of spaceto win in the, in the, the
sort of behavioral spaceof getting to net zero.
Qali Id (04:00):
So if behavior can make as big of a dent as the research
says, what are some of thebarriers that get in the way?
I spoke to Kash Romley, senioradvisor for behavioral science
at UNICEF to learn more.
Kash Ramli (04:12):
I think part of that is down to the amount
of confusing information,whether intentionally through
misinformation or just, justbecause of the complicated
technical nature of climatechange, where we don't know
which behaviours actuallyhave the true huge impact.
Take recycling,for example, right?
(04:33):
Everyone, it's become like, Iguess, in the past, it's become
like the beacon of positiveenvironmental behaviour.
But research generally showsrecycling actually has minimal
impact on, on the environment,and most of the time, recycling
doesn't actually happen theway that we think it does.
But I think individualslike it because it's quite
a salient behavior that theycan see, and it's part of
(04:55):
their lives, and they cansee the separation of waste.
But.
What the experience is in themoment and not necessarily
the entire supply chain.
That kind of feedbackis made less salient.
Qali Id (05:06):
So people are latching onto the more
visible but less impactfulbehaviours, which makes me a
bit pessimistic about behaviouractually making a dent.
Have we seen examples of SBCworking to drive significant
change in emissions?
Kash Ramli (05:20):
Probably the most robust form of intervention
in the research that we'vefound that has been scaled
to a global level andhas been industrialised.
Using social norms as feedbackto reduce household water
and energy consumption.
This is by showing, showingpeople how much they
(05:40):
consume and then comparingthat against their average
neighbours or peers.
That's been shown tobe effective across
lots of differentcultures and countries.
Qali Id (05:50):
That sounds really promising.
I'd love to learn more abouthow we in the global majority
can harness SBC methodsin the climate response.
Here is Xaher Gul, a clinicianbased in Karachi, Pakistan,
who specializes in integratingSBC and system strengthening.
Xaher Gul (06:07):
It's hard to support and strengthen a system which
keeps getting unraveled.
It's hard to consolidateprogress when you have to
keep diverting resourcesfrom development to
humanitarian response andcrisis response and families.
(06:30):
living by roadsides due tothe floods, and with 240
million people in the country,even small proportions
translate into huge numbers.
And there's already existingfood insecurity, and the floods,
and the agrarian economy.
You can see how everythingstarts compounding.
You can't keepplugging these holes.
(06:52):
Right?
If everything is sort offenestrated and it's all
leaking out, how many holes canwe keep plugging ultimately?
But climate change isnot of our doing as a
nation or as a country.
So the price that we'repaying is inordinately huge.
Qali Id (07:09):
You're absolutely right.
Plugging holes willget us nowhere.
With the complexity of acountry like Pakistan or here
in Kenya, where should we begin?
Xaher Gul (07:18):
I think climate change response should
focus first and foremoston addressing the legacy
of colonialism across theGlobal South, which continues
to manifest in terms of thepower differentials between
communities and decision makers.
(07:40):
When people have no controlover their own decision
making or lives by virtue ofhow resources are allocated,
how rights are protected,then to expect them to start
doing responsible things is abit of a stretch and unfair.
You can't just blamepeople for not doing
(08:00):
certain things more wisely.
I think addressing power andpaternalism and information
asymmetry is first and foremost.
I think making efforts to, formore equitable distribution
of resources is a priority.
I also think that reducingthe decision making
(08:22):
space is also a priority.
Qali Id (08:25):
I think Xaher makes a good point here.
Colonialism is inseparable fromclimate change, and therefore
I think it should also beinseparable from our response.
A starting point, even.
What does this look likefor people designing and
leading SBC programmes?
I think
Xaher Gul (08:43):
for programmers, particularly in the space
that we are working in,the development sector, one
of the ways of accountingfor this is to think about
very specific behavioursthat are linked across the
social ecological landscape.
You can't just think aboutthe woman or the individual
or the man or the child.
You have to think abouttheir lived environment,
(09:06):
their lived experience.
I like to look at it as a causalchain over six different levels.
There's the policy level, whichlays out the laws and policies.
There's the institutionallevel, where those policies
manifest in terms ofimplementation mechanisms.
We have the community level,which houses the individuals
(09:27):
that we are looking at.
And we then have the facilityand service delivery interface
where, by virtue of myhealth systems focus, certain
behaviours take place andprovider behaviours manifest.
We then have people in theirhouseholds as individuals living
with their families, whetherit's their partners or husbands
(09:47):
or parents, and focusing juston the individual and not
accounting for these additionalfive levels that will influence
how they engage with thesystem, if they engage at all,
and whether they adopt certainbehaviours or they don't.
If we don't facilitatepolicy reforms, which enable
(10:09):
availability of those services,then no amount of behavior
change at the individuallevel will manifest as impact.
And having that chain ofspecific behaviours, which
feed into each other, isreally foundational to SBC.
And for climate change, itbecomes even more critical to
look at it that way becauseno one individual will do one
(10:32):
behavior in isolation unless theS part of SBC is also shifting.
Qali Id (10:39):
I think looking at it as a chain, as all
interconnected, is reallyhelpful and also affirms that
for any behavior to really makean indent, our environments
and our systems need tochange too to allow for it.
Xaher Gul (10:53):
When we look at behaviours that we think need
to change or that we needto promote and we look at it
in cross section using thesocial ecological framework.
I'd like to encourage folksto think of this not as a
cross section, but ratheras a longitudinal process.
(11:15):
Behaviours that are happeningtoday are manifesting due
to the historical influencesthat feed into the culture
and the thinking andtaking that longitudinal
retrospective look will helpus understand, all right,
what created these problembehaviours in the first place.
(11:36):
That would allow us to startcreating responses that
may be able to mitigatethose causes or address
those deep rooted causes.
And unless we do that, It'sdangerous to go into a community
and start telling them thatyour elders were wrong, you
were wrong, everything is right.
Nobody takes that well.
So I think empathy isimportant and humility needs
(12:00):
to go hand in hand withthat as we approach this.
Qali Id (12:03):
Thank you, Xaher.
On the one hand, we haveindividuals and communities.
But we also have leadersmeeting every year for the COP
UN Climate Change Conference.
Here's what Kenya'spresident, William Ruto,
had to say at COP 28.
President Ruto (12:18):
Our approach must be
collaborative, inclusive,and anchored in justice.
This means making decisionsthat prioritise the well
being of every person, whileacknowledging that climate
action is inextricably linkedto social justice and equity.
In this room, ladies andgentlemen, we have the power.
(12:41):
the means, and most of all,the responsibility to act.
Qali Id (12:46):
Collaborative, inclusive, focused
on people and equity.
Sounds like SBC right?
What do we have toshow for these words?
Here's Kash again.
Kash Ramli (12:56):
I think I have a pretty low expectation
of global coordination onaddressing these things.
There's a lot of countries thatwould naturally be hesitant
to kind of sign off and agreeon addressing climate change.
If a country makes a lot of itsmoney from the environment, why,
(13:18):
it's not going to be motivatedto, to reduce, to reduce that.
Qali Id (13:24):
So where does that leave us then?
And who can we trust tolead us into the future?
I think young peopleacross the world have shown
tremendous leadership andorganization, and I wanted
us to hear from one of them.
Here's Jon Bonifacio, a 25 yearold environmental activist.
Jon Bonifacio (13:40):
My journey as a climate activist began when
I discovered that my medicalschool in Manila would be
underwater by the year 2050,which made me realise that
we needed climate actionhere and now, made me drop
out of school and pursueclimate activism full time.
I'm the National Coordinatorof Calicasan People's Network
for the Environment andformer National Coordinator
and Convener of YouthAdvocates for Climate
(14:01):
Action Philippines or YACA.
When it comes to engaging theyouth, part of the task is
really making sure that fellowyouth really see their potential
when it comes to becominga climate activist, when it
comes to enacting change.
Qali Id (14:13):
Which can understandably be really
difficult if the change you'rehoping to see isn't supported
by the systems around you.
What do you see as the biggestchallenge in motivating
and mobilizing youtharound the climate crisis?
Jon Bonifacio (14:27):
Here in the Philippines, we do face a
lot of challenges, one ofthem being the fact that
activism in general isreally looked down upon and
stigmatised, and on top ofthat, particularly youth Being
vocal about different issuesin the country is something
that people look down upon.
For climate and environmentalactivists here in the
Philippines, it's extremelydifficult because we
do face attacks andharassment for our advocacy.
Qali Id (14:50):
And despite the pushback you receive within your
own society, you keep going.
Jon Bonifacio (14:55):
When it comes to youth activism, there's
a real strength in numbers.
It's really essential that welink up, not just with other
youth, but also with othersectors of society, because
it's only through collectiveaction we can really push for
the dialogues, um, engaging withpolicy makers, uh, different
forms of action that we needto see in our society today.
Qali Id (15:15):
So what does collective action really mean?
What does it looklike in your work?
Jon Bonifacio (15:20):
Collective action means understanding that our
approach really must be rootedin linking up with other people.
So, for example, in the workthat I do in my organizations,
part of the task is reallyto reach out to the small
fisherfolk, the small farmers,the urban poor who are
experiencing the brunt ofthe climate crisis and who
really understand the need forsocial action here and now.
(15:42):
We were able to mobilizelots of youth to really go
to the communities that arebeing impacted the most when
it comes to climate change.
Really see how floods, howintense heat is really affecting
the people, not just ourfellow youth, but also the
older generation in these,uh, marginalised communities.
By mobilizing with a lot offisher folk communities in
particular, we were able toscore dialogues with, uh,
(16:03):
officials from the nationalgovernment when it comes to
the issues of reclamationand other projects that are
impacting marine ecosystemsin the Philippines.
Qali Id (16:13):
That's impressive.
So, in a society where speakingout against the status quo
is frowned upon, you foundthe people who are probably
the most willing to speakout, the people who are
hardest hit by these issues.
And it's through workingtogether that you've
gotten the government toreally pay attention to
environmental degradation.
Jon Bonifacio (16:31):
That's what we really need to leverage and
that's what we really need topush for and it really starts
by understanding that the crisiswe're experiencing is something
that everybody experiences andby understanding on our own
capacity what we can do to linkup with other people to make
sure that we listen to themand they also listen to us and
really work together to reallyassert our position on the table
and make spaces wherever we canbecause again, our future is at
(16:55):
stake, all of our dreams and allof our hopes are really banking
on a better future for all.
Qali Id (17:01):
From your perspective, John, what can UNICEF and
other large organizationsdo to get your voices
and perspectives into therooms where those important
decisions are being made?
Jon Bonifacio (17:12):
UNICEF definitely has a role to
play in this development.
Providing opportunities foryoung people to engage more
in the international spacesso that they can really bring
their narratives and theirstories from the ground to the
people who need to hear them.
It's stories like thesethat hope to inspire
more and more people toengage in social action.
But on top of that, theyreally serve as templates
(17:34):
for further action, also inupholding the rights of young
people to speak out and speakup about the different social
issues that are impacting theircommunity or their country.
Institutions like UNICEF candirectly ensure the safety
and security of activistslike myself, whether that's
in the Philippines or inother parts of the world.
Qali Id (17:53):
I feel like UNICEF and other similar organizations
are making an effort, butit's clearly not enough.
We spoke to GeorginaAvlonitis, an urban ecologist
and someone who's been partof this journey to climate
justice for a long time, tounderstand why this is the case.
Georgina Avlonitis (18:08):
It's horrible because, you know,
today's youth is synonymouswith environmental activism.
And they, they've beentaking centre stage in this
global fight to protect,to protect the planet.
There are disruptiveinnovators, they're the
future entrepreneurs, decisionmakers, and the future
brave industry leaders.
You know, they totally,youth are still so poorly
(18:28):
integrated into, into criticaldecision making processes
within adult led arenas.
And often they receive theseinvitations without meaningful
integration or impact.
And that's kind of whatthe term youth washing is.
And youth washing is sucha missed opportunity.
And it's an opportunityfor adults in power to,
to open avenues for accessand inclusion, rather than
(18:51):
continuing to promote thesetokenistic opportunities,
because essentially youngpeople are the generation that
need to be empowered with aseat at the decision making
table, but also the tools andthe processes to meaningfully
add value at that table.
Qali Id (19:04):
Do you have any words of wisdom that you can
share from your experiencescultivating and participating
in social movements?
Georgina Avlonitis (19:11):
The fun factor, changing
the world should be fun.
We're surrounded by challengesand yes there's a triple
planetary crisis and theworld is on fire, but we
were born for this time.
Everyone here on earth todayhas an incredible opportunity to
make their own personal impactbut also to affect change in
part of the wider community.
And people are much morelikely to join a movement when
(19:32):
they, when they perceive thatthe cause directly affects
them or their community.
And I think then there's alsothis sort of big ticket of,
of social norms and influence.
So people tend to joinmovements because they feel
social pressure to conformto the norms of their
peers or group or society.
And I think it's alsotapping into that desire
to fit in because that'sa deeply human desire.
(19:55):
And then of course, the morepeople join a movement, the
more there's that social proof.
And then of course, youknow, they always say that
the most, the most rewardingcareers, the most rewarding
activities where you can seethe fruits of your labor.
So it's about thosepositive feedback loops.
That's a huge factor,reinforcement that what
you're doing is actuallyhaving an impact.
(20:16):
Your actions aremaking a difference.
So that sort of perceived selfefficacy and the belief in both
your own ability, but also inwhatever group or movement's
ability that you're part of is,is actually affecting change.
And I think that's alsoa huge factor in, in
motivating participation.
And then of course,accessibility.
So the ease with which Folkscan engage with the movement,
(20:39):
whether it's, you know, anonline platform or it's via
radio or it's local eventsor other means that, that can
really influence the decision tojoin if it's easily accessible.
So whether you're an engineeror whether you're an artist
or whether you're a scientistor whether you're a street
sweeper or whatever it isyou are, we all , we all have
the power to impact change.
Qali Id (21:04):
That's our show.
Let's recap.
Climate change is hittingvulnerable communities
hard, demanding urgentand collective action.
We need policy and legislativeenvironments to enable green
behaviours and more communityled climate response and
people power, especially amongthe youth, which all play a
crucial role in getting there.
Incorporating SBC into themix can make sustainable
(21:27):
choices enjoyable, breakdown barriers, and empower
individuals and communitiesto make a significant impact
on the climate response.
Whether this has been thefirst episode of the podcast
that you've listened to, orif you've been following along
from the start, I just want tosay thank you for joining me
on this adventure and lendinga small part of your busy
day to learning about SBC.
(21:47):
As always, you can findmore information about the
experts in this episode inour show notes, along with
other helpful resources.
We won't be releasing anepisode next week, or the
week after for that matter.
We'll be off speaking tomore experts, chasing down
SBC in different parts ofthe globe, to bring you more
episodes on how it can beapplied to the big challenges.
(22:10):
While we're away, you canget your fix on SBC by
visiting sbcguidance.org.
Thank you for listening,sharing, and stay tuned.
You know, there's the age
old saying that the, theraindrop doesn't believe it's
responsible for the flood.
And, and it is about garneringthat connection to something
much bigger than yourself.
And how to do that isobviously the, this thing
we're all struggling with asenvironmental practitioners and
communicators and advocators.
(00:28):
But I think firstof all, changing the
world should be fun.
Qali Id (00:35):
What is the role of communities to address a
crisis that they didn't create?
Can individuals and communitieseven make a dent in the
global climate crisis?
Or are we just at the mercy ofcorporations and governments
to implement and followthrough on initiatives that
effectively turn the tides?
Welcome to the ABCs of SBC,where we break down what Social
(00:56):
and Behaviour Change is andhow it might help us tackle
some of the biggest issuesthreatening future generations.
I'm Qali Id, and in this episodewe'll be discussing a challenge
that affects all of us, butcertainly not in the same ways.
2023 was the hottest yearon record, with extreme
weather related eventsall over the globe.
(01:17):
Where I live in Kenya, we'veexperienced years of severe
droughts in the Horn of Africa,leaving millions of people
displaced and food insecure.
At COP 27, UN SecretaryGeneral Antonio Guterres
captured the urgency of theclimate crisis well, when
he said, We are on a highway
António Guterres (01:35):
to climate hell with our foot
still on the accelerator.
The clock is ticking.
We are in the fight of ourlives and we are losing.
Greenhouse gasemissions keep growing.
Global temperatures keep rising.
And our planet is fastapproaching tipping points
(01:57):
that will make climatechaos irreversible.
Qali Id (02:01):
And since then, the world continues to
drive in the fast lane.
According to the WorldHealth Organization,
research has shown that 3.
6 billion people already livein areas highly susceptible
to climate change, andbetween 2030 and 2050,
climate change is expected tocause approximately 250, 000
(02:22):
additional deaths per yearfrom undernutrition, malaria,
diarrhea, and heat stress alone.
Given these colossal numbers,It's hard to imagine that
recycling my coffee cup orturning down my air conditioning
is going to make the differencebetween a climate disaster
and a world in which thenext generation can thrive.
So here's Monica Will Silva,a behavioral scientist at the
(02:44):
Behavioral Insights team, totell us about how SBC can have
an impact in the climate crisis.
Monica Wills-Silva (02:50):
We recently published a report
on how can we apply behavioralsciences to get to net zero.
And one of the things thatwe've been looking within that
is the stats that the climatechange committees release that
basically shows that about62 percent of what we want to
achieve in terms of emissionreductions could be achieved
(03:11):
through behavioral change.
Be that things like adoptionof new technologies, like
electric vehicles, heat pumps,like making, homes energy
efficient or things likelifestyle changes, like eating
less meat and less dairy,being more active and so on.
62%.
So what is standing in our way?
(03:31):
We found in our research thatif you ask people, nine out of
10 people will tell you thatthey actually want to engage
in more sustainable ways ofliving and that they want to
adopt some of these behaviours.
But simultaneously, whatwe find is that there's
still lots of barriers.
In the, say, build environmentin the space around them, and
like very small things, verysmall frictions that might
(03:53):
decrease those behaviours.
So there's a lot of spaceto win in the, in the, the
sort of behavioral spaceof getting to net zero.
Qali Id (04:00):
So if behavior can make as big of a dent as the research
says, what are some of thebarriers that get in the way?
I spoke to Kash Romley, senioradvisor for behavioral science
at UNICEF to learn more.
Kash Ramli (04:12):
I think part of that is down to the amount
of confusing information,whether intentionally through
misinformation or just, justbecause of the complicated
technical nature of climatechange, where we don't know
which behaviours actuallyhave the true huge impact.
Take recycling,for example, right?
(04:33):
Everyone, it's become like, Iguess, in the past, it's become
like the beacon of positiveenvironmental behaviour.
But research generally showsrecycling actually has minimal
impact on, on the environment,and most of the time, recycling
doesn't actually happen theway that we think it does.
But I think individualslike it because it's quite
a salient behavior that theycan see, and it's part of
(04:55):
their lives, and they cansee the separation of waste.
But.
What the experience is in themoment and not necessarily
the entire supply chain.
That kind of feedbackis made less salient.
Qali Id (05:06):
So people are latching onto the more
visible but less impactfulbehaviours, which makes me a
bit pessimistic about behaviouractually making a dent.
Have we seen examples of SBCworking to drive significant
change in emissions?
Kash Ramli (05:20):
Probably the most robust form of intervention
in the research that we'vefound that has been scaled
to a global level andhas been industrialised.
Using social norms as feedbackto reduce household water
and energy consumption.
This is by showing, showingpeople how much they
(05:40):
consume and then comparingthat against their average
neighbours or peers.
That's been shown tobe effective across
lots of differentcultures and countries.
Qali Id (05:50):
That sounds really promising.
I'd love to learn more abouthow we in the global majority
can harness SBC methodsin the climate response.
Here is Xaher Gul, a clinicianbased in Karachi, Pakistan,
who specializes in integratingSBC and system strengthening.
Xaher Gul (06:07):
It's hard to support and strengthen a system which
keeps getting unraveled.
It's hard to consolidateprogress when you have to
keep diverting resourcesfrom development to
humanitarian response andcrisis response and families.
(06:30):
living by roadsides due tothe floods, and with 240
million people in the country,even small proportions
translate into huge numbers.
And there's already existingfood insecurity, and the floods,
and the agrarian economy.
You can see how everythingstarts compounding.
You can't keepplugging these holes.
(06:52):
Right?
If everything is sort offenestrated and it's all
leaking out, how many holes canwe keep plugging ultimately?
But climate change isnot of our doing as a
nation or as a country.
So the price that we'repaying is inordinately huge.
Qali Id (07:09):
You're absolutely right.
Plugging holes willget us nowhere.
With the complexity of acountry like Pakistan or here
in Kenya, where should we begin?
Xaher Gul (07:18):
I think climate change response should
focus first and foremoston addressing the legacy
of colonialism across theGlobal South, which continues
to manifest in terms of thepower differentials between
communities and decision makers.
(07:40):
When people have no controlover their own decision
making or lives by virtue ofhow resources are allocated,
how rights are protected,then to expect them to start
doing responsible things is abit of a stretch and unfair.
You can't just blamepeople for not doing
(08:00):
certain things more wisely.
I think addressing power andpaternalism and information
asymmetry is first and foremost.
I think making efforts to, formore equitable distribution
of resources is a priority.
I also think that reducingthe decision making
(08:22):
space is also a priority.
Qali Id (08:25):
I think Xaher makes a good point here.
Colonialism is inseparable fromclimate change, and therefore
I think it should also beinseparable from our response.
A starting point, even.
What does this look likefor people designing and
leading SBC programmes?
I think
Xaher Gul (08:43):
for programmers, particularly in the space
that we are working in,the development sector, one
of the ways of accountingfor this is to think about
very specific behavioursthat are linked across the
social ecological landscape.
You can't just think aboutthe woman or the individual
or the man or the child.
You have to think abouttheir lived environment,
(09:06):
their lived experience.
I like to look at it as a causalchain over six different levels.
There's the policy level, whichlays out the laws and policies.
There's the institutionallevel, where those policies
manifest in terms ofimplementation mechanisms.
We have the community level,which houses the individuals
(09:27):
that we are looking at.
And we then have the facilityand service delivery interface
where, by virtue of myhealth systems focus, certain
behaviours take place andprovider behaviours manifest.
We then have people in theirhouseholds as individuals living
with their families, whetherit's their partners or husbands
(09:47):
or parents, and focusing juston the individual and not
accounting for these additionalfive levels that will influence
how they engage with thesystem, if they engage at all,
and whether they adopt certainbehaviours or they don't.
If we don't facilitatepolicy reforms, which enable
(10:09):
availability of those services,then no amount of behavior
change at the individuallevel will manifest as impact.
And having that chain ofspecific behaviours, which
feed into each other, isreally foundational to SBC.
And for climate change, itbecomes even more critical to
look at it that way becauseno one individual will do one
(10:32):
behavior in isolation unless theS part of SBC is also shifting.
Qali Id (10:39):
I think looking at it as a chain, as all
interconnected, is reallyhelpful and also affirms that
for any behavior to really makean indent, our environments
and our systems need tochange too to allow for it.
Xaher Gul (10:53):
When we look at behaviours that we think need
to change or that we needto promote and we look at it
in cross section using thesocial ecological framework.
I'd like to encourage folksto think of this not as a
cross section, but ratheras a longitudinal process.
(11:15):
Behaviours that are happeningtoday are manifesting due
to the historical influencesthat feed into the culture
and the thinking andtaking that longitudinal
retrospective look will helpus understand, all right,
what created these problembehaviours in the first place.
(11:36):
That would allow us to startcreating responses that
may be able to mitigatethose causes or address
those deep rooted causes.
And unless we do that, It'sdangerous to go into a community
and start telling them thatyour elders were wrong, you
were wrong, everything is right.
Nobody takes that well.
So I think empathy isimportant and humility needs
(12:00):
to go hand in hand withthat as we approach this.
Qali Id (12:03):
Thank you, Xaher.
On the one hand, we haveindividuals and communities.
But we also have leadersmeeting every year for the COP
UN Climate Change Conference.
Here's what Kenya'spresident, William Ruto,
had to say at COP 28.
President Ruto (12:18):
Our approach must be
collaborative, inclusive,and anchored in justice.
This means making decisionsthat prioritise the well
being of every person, whileacknowledging that climate
action is inextricably linkedto social justice and equity.
In this room, ladies andgentlemen, we have the power.
(12:41):
the means, and most of all,the responsibility to act.
Qali Id (12:46):
Collaborative, inclusive, focused
on people and equity.
Sounds like SBC right?
What do we have toshow for these words?
Here's Kash again.
Kash Ramli (12:56):
I think I have a pretty low expectation
of global coordination onaddressing these things.
There's a lot of countries thatwould naturally be hesitant
to kind of sign off and agreeon addressing climate change.
If a country makes a lot of itsmoney from the environment, why,
(13:18):
it's not going to be motivatedto, to reduce, to reduce that.
Qali Id (13:24):
So where does that leave us then?
And who can we trust tolead us into the future?
I think young peopleacross the world have shown
tremendous leadership andorganization, and I wanted
us to hear from one of them.
Here's Jon Bonifacio, a 25 yearold environmental activist.
Jon Bonifacio (13:40):
My journey as a climate activist began when
I discovered that my medicalschool in Manila would be
underwater by the year 2050,which made me realise that
we needed climate actionhere and now, made me drop
out of school and pursueclimate activism full time.
I'm the National Coordinatorof Calicasan People's Network
for the Environment andformer National Coordinator
and Convener of YouthAdvocates for Climate
(14:01):
Action Philippines or YACA.
When it comes to engaging theyouth, part of the task is
really making sure that fellowyouth really see their potential
when it comes to becominga climate activist, when it
comes to enacting change.
Qali Id (14:13):
Which can understandably be really
difficult if the change you'rehoping to see isn't supported
by the systems around you.
What do you see as the biggestchallenge in motivating
and mobilizing youtharound the climate crisis?
Jon Bonifacio (14:27):
Here in the Philippines, we do face a
lot of challenges, one ofthem being the fact that
activism in general isreally looked down upon and
stigmatised, and on top ofthat, particularly youth Being
vocal about different issuesin the country is something
that people look down upon.
For climate and environmentalactivists here in the
Philippines, it's extremelydifficult because we
do face attacks andharassment for our advocacy.
Qali Id (14:50):
And despite the pushback you receive within your
own society, you keep going.
Jon Bonifacio (14:55):
When it comes to youth activism, there's
a real strength in numbers.
It's really essential that welink up, not just with other
youth, but also with othersectors of society, because
it's only through collectiveaction we can really push for
the dialogues, um, engaging withpolicy makers, uh, different
forms of action that we needto see in our society today.
Qali Id (15:15):
So what does collective action really mean?
What does it looklike in your work?
Jon Bonifacio (15:20):
Collective action means understanding that our
approach really must be rootedin linking up with other people.
So, for example, in the workthat I do in my organizations,
part of the task is reallyto reach out to the small
fisherfolk, the small farmers,the urban poor who are
experiencing the brunt ofthe climate crisis and who
really understand the need forsocial action here and now.
(15:42):
We were able to mobilizelots of youth to really go
to the communities that arebeing impacted the most when
it comes to climate change.
Really see how floods, howintense heat is really affecting
the people, not just ourfellow youth, but also the
older generation in these,uh, marginalised communities.
By mobilizing with a lot offisher folk communities in
particular, we were able toscore dialogues with, uh,
(16:03):
officials from the nationalgovernment when it comes to
the issues of reclamationand other projects that are
impacting marine ecosystemsin the Philippines.
Qali Id (16:13):
That's impressive.
So, in a society where speakingout against the status quo
is frowned upon, you foundthe people who are probably
the most willing to speakout, the people who are
hardest hit by these issues.
And it's through workingtogether that you've
gotten the government toreally pay attention to
environmental degradation.
Jon Bonifacio (16:31):
That's what we really need to leverage and
that's what we really need topush for and it really starts
by understanding that the crisiswe're experiencing is something
that everybody experiences andby understanding on our own
capacity what we can do to linkup with other people to make
sure that we listen to themand they also listen to us and
really work together to reallyassert our position on the table
and make spaces wherever we canbecause again, our future is at
(16:55):
stake, all of our dreams and allof our hopes are really banking
on a better future for all.
Qali Id (17:01):
From your perspective, John, what can UNICEF and
other large organizationsdo to get your voices
and perspectives into therooms where those important
decisions are being made?
Jon Bonifacio (17:12):
UNICEF definitely has a role to
play in this development.
Providing opportunities foryoung people to engage more
in the international spacesso that they can really bring
their narratives and theirstories from the ground to the
people who need to hear them.
It's stories like thesethat hope to inspire
more and more people toengage in social action.
But on top of that, theyreally serve as templates
(17:34):
for further action, also inupholding the rights of young
people to speak out and speakup about the different social
issues that are impacting theircommunity or their country.
Institutions like UNICEF candirectly ensure the safety
and security of activistslike myself, whether that's
in the Philippines or inother parts of the world.
Qali Id (17:53):
I feel like UNICEF and other similar organizations
are making an effort, butit's clearly not enough.
We spoke to GeorginaAvlonitis, an urban ecologist
and someone who's been partof this journey to climate
justice for a long time, tounderstand why this is the case.
Georgina Avlonitis (18:08):
It's horrible because, you know,
today's youth is synonymouswith environmental activism.
And they, they've beentaking centre stage in this
global fight to protect,to protect the planet.
There are disruptiveinnovators, they're the
future entrepreneurs, decisionmakers, and the future
brave industry leaders.
You know, they totally,youth are still so poorly
(18:28):
integrated into, into criticaldecision making processes
within adult led arenas.
And often they receive theseinvitations without meaningful
integration or impact.
And that's kind of whatthe term youth washing is.
And youth washing is sucha missed opportunity.
And it's an opportunityfor adults in power to,
to open avenues for accessand inclusion, rather than
(18:51):
continuing to promote thesetokenistic opportunities,
because essentially youngpeople are the generation that
need to be empowered with aseat at the decision making
table, but also the tools andthe processes to meaningfully
add value at that table.
Qali Id (19:04):
Do you have any words of wisdom that you can
share from your experiencescultivating and participating
in social movements?
Georgina Avlonitis (19:11):
The fun factor, changing
the world should be fun.
We're surrounded by challengesand yes there's a triple
planetary crisis and theworld is on fire, but we
were born for this time.
Everyone here on earth todayhas an incredible opportunity to
make their own personal impactbut also to affect change in
part of the wider community.
And people are much morelikely to join a movement when
(19:32):
they, when they perceive thatthe cause directly affects
them or their community.
And I think then there's alsothis sort of big ticket of,
of social norms and influence.
So people tend to joinmovements because they feel
social pressure to conformto the norms of their
peers or group or society.
And I think it's alsotapping into that desire
to fit in because that'sa deeply human desire.
(19:55):
And then of course, the morepeople join a movement, the
more there's that social proof.
And then of course, youknow, they always say that
the most, the most rewardingcareers, the most rewarding
activities where you can seethe fruits of your labor.
So it's about thosepositive feedback loops.
That's a huge factor,reinforcement that what
you're doing is actuallyhaving an impact.
(20:16):
Your actions aremaking a difference.
So that sort of perceived selfefficacy and the belief in both
your own ability, but also inwhatever group or movement's
ability that you're part of is,is actually affecting change.
And I think that's alsoa huge factor in, in
motivating participation.
And then of course,accessibility.
So the ease with which Folkscan engage with the movement,
(20:39):
whether it's, you know, anonline platform or it's via
radio or it's local eventsor other means that, that can
really influence the decision tojoin if it's easily accessible.
So whether you're an engineeror whether you're an artist
or whether you're a scientistor whether you're a street
sweeper or whatever it isyou are, we all , we all have
the power to impact change.
Qali Id (21:04):
That's our show.
Let's recap.
Climate change is hittingvulnerable communities
hard, demanding urgentand collective action.
We need policy and legislativeenvironments to enable green
behaviours and more communityled climate response and
people power, especially amongthe youth, which all play a
crucial role in getting there.
Incorporating SBC into themix can make sustainable
(21:27):
choices enjoyable, breakdown barriers, and empower
individuals and communitiesto make a significant impact
on the climate response.
Whether this has been thefirst episode of the podcast
that you've listened to, orif you've been following along
from the start, I just want tosay thank you for joining me
on this adventure and lendinga small part of your busy
day to learning about SBC.
(21:47):
As always, you can findmore information about the
experts in this episode inour show notes, along with
other helpful resources.
We won't be releasing anepisode next week, or the
week after for that matter.
We'll be off speaking tomore experts, chasing down
SBC in different parts ofthe globe, to bring you more
episodes on how it can beapplied to the big challenges.
(22:10):
While we're away, you canget your fix on SBC by
visiting sbcguidance.org.
Thank you for listening,sharing, and stay tuned.
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