Are you curious about the inner workings of military leadership and the valuable lessons that can shape a young officer's career? In this episode of the Academy Insider Podcast, I sit down with Mark C. Fava, author of the soon-to-be-released book "Lessons from the Admiral," to explore the unique insights gained from his time as a flag aide.
Mark's experience offers a fascinating perspective on leadership development for junior officers navigating the complexities of military life. We delve into the critical role of a flag aide and the competitive nature of this position, shedding light on how it can open doors and build invaluable connections.
Key Leadership Lessons Explored:
- Understanding your boss and aligning with their priorities
- The profound impact of punctuality in military and civilian life
- Navigating the delicate balance between loyalty and integrity
- The art of not panicking under pressure
- Embracing teamwork and acknowledging others' contributions
Mark shares captivating stories from his time as a flag aide, including a humorous anecdote about a haircut that teaches an important lesson about discretion. We also discuss the critical importance of building strong relationships with chiefs and how their guidance can shape a young officer's career.
Takeaways for Aspiring Leaders:
- Learn to ask for help when needed – it's a sign of strength, not weakness
- Understand the small but impactful ways to be a great team player
- Recognize the value of serving others and the unique opportunities the military provides
- Develop strategies for maintaining composure in high-pressure situations
- Cultivate meaningful relationships across all ranks to enhance your leadership effectiveness
Whether you're a midshipman, a junior officer, or simply interested in military leadership, this episode offers valuable insights that can be applied both in and out of uniform. Join us as we unpack these lessons and explore how they can shape the next generation of military leaders.
The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families.
Grant Vermeer your host is the person who started it all. He is the founder of Academy Insider and the host of The Academy Insider podcast. He was a recruited athlete which brought him to Annapolis where he was a four year member of the varsity basketball team. He was a cyber operations major and commissioned into the Cryptologic Warfare Community. He was stationed at Fort Meade and supported the Subsurface Direct Support mission.
He separated from the Navy in 2023 and now owns The Vermeer Group, a residential real estate company that specializes in serving the United States Naval Academy community with nationwide consulting and connection.
We are here to be your guide through the USNA experience.
Connect with Grant on Linkedin
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If you are interested in sponsoring the podcast, have an idea, question or topic you would like to see covered, reach out: podcast@academyinsider.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Season 2 of the Academy Insider Podcast.
Academy Insider is a 501c3nonprofit organization that
serves midshipmen, futuremidshipmen and their families.
At its core, this podcast isdesigned to bring together a
community of Naval Academygraduates and those affiliated
with the United States NavalAcademy in order to tell stories
and provide a little bit ofinsight into what life at the
(00:22):
Naval Academy is really like.
I hope you enjoy it.
Thank you so much for listeningand reach out if you ever have
any questions.
Hey everyone, and welcome backto the Academy Insider Podcast.
In today's episode I'm joined byMark Fava, which just is about
to release and publish a bookcalled Lessons from the Admiral,
which is an incredible coolinsight into military leadership
, and it's actually it'll catchyou off guard it's actually not
(00:44):
about his time as an admiral.
It's about his time andreflections upon working for an
admiral as an admiral's aide.
So if you just are wondering,you're like, what the heck is an
admiral's aide?
Well, listen to the episodebecause we're going to answer
that question.
But we're also going to talk alot about leadership lessons
that he learned in that spot foryoung military junior officers
trying to make their way up inthe ranks and kind of navigating
(01:04):
the difficulties of being amilitary junior officer.
So, again, if that's somethingthat you're interested in, make
sure to check out this episode.
I think you'll really love it.
And again, if you know anyonewho you think would enjoy this
or benefit from this platform,please share it with them.
It would mean the world to me.
Otherwise, I really hope youenjoy the listen.
Thank you so much.
Have a great day.
Thank you so much.
(01:45):
With a trusted Academyaffiliated agent in the market
which you're in, please reachout to me directly at grant at
the premier groupcom.
You can also reach out to me onmy LinkedIn page grant from
here and I'd be happy to respondto you there.
Thank you so much, and nowlet's get back to the episode.
Hey everyone, and welcome backto the Academy insider podcast.
Mark, thank you so much fortaking the time to join us today
to talk about again the releaseof your new book, lessons from
(02:06):
the Admiral, and run us throughagain with the hope to inspire
and provide a little bit ofinsight into the life and
(02:26):
leadership journey anddevelopment of a young junior
officer and potentially even amidshipman.
And so, before we jump intothat, if you don't mind just
giving a brief introduction ofyourself to the audience, where
you're from, how you ended up inthe Navy and then kind of your
path through the Navy into whatyou're doing now.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
That would be awesome kind of your path through the
Navy into what you're doing now.
That would be awesome.
Sure, listen.
Thanks so much.
It's such an honor to be onthis podcast and especially with
your audience.
I am a Navy brat.
Dad was in the Navy, dad was asupply corps captain and like
many folks, we moved toCharleston when I was young
because dad was stationed inCharleston, so that became home
(03:03):
and from there high school here.
I went to University of NorthCarolina at Chapel Hill and at
the time Dad said if you'regoing out of state much like you
would get at the academy hesaid you better get a
scholarship because you got akid ahead of you and a kid
behind you.
I can't afford three at once.
If you can't get a scholarship,then you're going to go in
state at either Clemson or SouthCarolina, both great schools.
(03:24):
Clemson didn't have a navalROTC unit, chapel Hill did so.
I graduated from Chapel Hill in1985 as a young midshipman,
finished up as the battalioncommander there what a cool
place it was and then went toflight school, ended up being a
naval flight officer in P3'sjunior officer tour and I got to
where I am today because I hada lieutenant commander, jag
officer that was mentoring meand I got to where I am today
(03:44):
because I had a LieutenantCommander JAG officer that was
mentoring me and I was the legalofficer in the Navy squadron.
So after six years I decidedthat the Cold War was over.
I want to do something else, alittle bit fun.
Stay in the reserves, but wentto law school, and that's where
I got to where I am now.
So 30 years later, graduatedfrom University of South
Carolina Law School in 1994.
How about that?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Well, way cool, and all of those experiences through
your time in the Navy andbeyond led you again to getting
ready to publish this book,which will come out on Tuesday,
titled Lessons from the Admiral,which really highlights and
documents your experienceactually as a flag aide.
And so I think that was reallycool, because originally, when I
had seen the title as well, Ithink, like many will assume
(04:23):
it's like oh hey, it's anadmiral sharing their
experiences, but it's actually alittle bit different.
It's your experience ofwitnessing your boss a great
boss that you had, anddocumenting some of these
incredible life and leadershiplessons you learned along the
way.
And so, to provide a littlecontext for the listener as well
, do you mind talking about whata flag aid is Like?
(04:44):
What does that mean whensomeone hears this term flag aid
?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, listen, it was a phenomenal job.
So I finished my first tour inthe squadron I was thinking
about going to be a Naval FlightOfficer instructor and the same
mentor, the same LieutenantCommander, who ultimately
retired as a JAG Admiral yearslater, said hey, did you ever
think about being a flag aid?
And I said no, what is it andwhat do you do?
The same question, and it's anincredible job.
(05:08):
You are the Admiral's numberone point person for everything
they do every single day andyou're responsible for getting
them where they need to be, theexcellence in how they get there
, how they present themselvesand at the same time, you get to
see everything behind thescenes of the Admiral's life.
And that really was formativefor me because it was my first
(05:30):
job where I was working thatclosely with a boss that was
that senior to me.
And that was the lessons, andI've been thinking about them
for 30 years.
How about?
Speaker 1 (05:38):
it and when you're writing this book, when you're
thinking about the end in mindof the takeaway, before we even
dive into some of the lessonsthat you did learn, what were
you hoping for people to takeaway from this book?
What was the intention behindit?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, the intention was exactly what you hit on.
This isn't me talking about meas a leader.
It's me talking about how Iobserved a leader, and my
philosophy is you become aleader based on observing both
good and bad leaders andincorporating both their
strengths and their weaknesses.
So that was the takeaway of thebook.
Look what I learned in this jobfrom this admiral.
(06:14):
Many, many years ago had becomepart of my fabric, of how I
operate today.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
And just to highlight and really double down on your
point about the flag aid, it isa really important position and
it's a really competitive job aswell.
There's a lot of selectionprocess that goes into who
becomes flag aids, that numberone assistant again to the
admirals, and in many casesagain my time is a midshipman.
Just to highlight this, therewas an officer, lieutenant Kayla
(06:40):
Barron, who was a submarineofficer.
She became the aid to AdmiralCarter who was the
superintendent of the NavalAcademy and now she's an
astronaut right With NASA right,and so obviously it's an
extreme example.
But again, when we talk aboutand highlight some of these
things just for midshipmanparents or parents of officers
out there, again, being a flagaid gives you incredible
(07:02):
opportunity to buildrelationships with a lot of
these people who have theconnections to again help open
doors to get you where you wantto go in life Right.
It's arduous but it's great.
A lot of opportunity.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
The best 18 months of my life in terms of learning
that and building exactly whatyou said the network.
You're you know, you hear thatphrase in Top Gun the best of
the best.
Well, really, as an aide,that's what you're picked.
I mean, the selection is brutaland once you get it, it's a
very, very difficult thing to do.
But boy, as I look today back,whenever I connect with people
(07:36):
on LinkedIn, you'd be amazed atthe number of people who are
leading the aircraft, carrierscommanding the squadrons, or the
SWOs, captains of the ships,who are now also admirals.
And when I scroll down, I seeflag aid to so-and-so and
so-and-so and I laugh becauseI'll connect with them and I say
(07:58):
, hey, I see you're also amember of Order of the Loop,
because we've all been there,done that.
Everybody knows what the job isand what it is.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Do you mind just breaking down that term, the
order of the loop, because Ithink this is actually really
funny and maybe a key littlething for again a parent walking
through the Naval Academy whosees an officer with the loop.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, so you know, order comes from anything like
in law school.
There's order of the coif,order of this, order of all
these honorary societies.
Order of the Loop is calledOrder of the Loop because when
you're the aid, you get to weara yellow and gold I'm sorry, a
golden blue braid on yourshoulder, and the higher the
stars, the apple, are, the morebraids you have, and that's
(08:35):
called an agri-led French.
I took Spanish but you got toget that right.
And the neat thing about thatis here you are as a very young
junior officer maybe four years,five years out of the academy,
and you're walking around withthis admiral.
But sometimes you're notwalking around with the admiral
and people got to listen to youand they got to do what you say
and they don't break you.
So the agulet is a wonderfulsymbol that tells people hey,
(08:59):
I'm saying this for somebodyelse and it needs to be done.
It's a really really neat thing, really neat thing.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Because again in this book you actually talk about a
couple of times to where theAdmiral tells you to use his
stars sparingly, right, butsometimes you don't even have to
because you, just you carry itwith your uniform, right, Like
people see that and they know.
Right Like they understand,yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
No doubt about it.
I mean, it's a delicate balanceand junior officers understand
this right as an ensign inwhatever community you are, even
as a JG and the lieutenant.
If you're smart, you're goingto realize that the people
you're dealing with now areultimately going to either be
your CO later, the lieutenantcommanders and commanders, or
they're going to be yourcolleagues or they're going to
be your colleagues.
So when you're using the starsand the aggolot, you got to be
(09:45):
careful, but you got to get thejob done.
But you really don't want toupset people or piss people off
too terribly because they willremember you Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
So I appreciate that that's a funny little tidbit.
I'm glad we got to talk aboutthat gold.
I'm just going to keep usingthe term loop as a normal person
, the as a normal person, thegold loop around the shoulder,
because it is a funny again,it's an indicator and that
hopefully a little piece of thatinsider knowledge for all you
listening.
Again, if you see an officerwalking around with that gold
loop, you can know oh, like,that is an aid, right, that is
an aid to an accident, and soand listen.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
you've seen these too .
And one more thing for ourfamilies and parents.
So the ceremonial loop isphenomenal, I mean it.
It straps around two or threedifferent places.
Has, you know, cords hangingdown?
We used to call that theAnaconda snake, it was just all
over the place.
So when you're at a real bigceremony, the apple is dressed
up, you're dressed up and theceremonial loop is very, very
(10:37):
beautiful.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Very cool, all right.
Well, let's jump into some ofthese lessons that you cover in
this book, and I want to giveyou the opportunity to to talk
about some of these lessons thatyou cover in this book.
And I want to give you theopportunity to talk about some
of these.
And the first one that youmentioned, and I thought it's
really interesting because,again, a lot of time when people
are reading a leadership book,they're assuming, like you
mentioned, it's going to be atop-down leadership thing.
They're telling you how to leaddown, right, but your first
(11:00):
lesson is actually all aboutknowing your boss and
understanding your boss.
Why is this lesson so important?
What did you learn during yourtime?
And then, specifically, why isthis lesson critical?
For JOs right, who are going tohave multiple bosses their
department head, an XO, a COright how does this lesson
relate to them and what shouldthey focus on?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah, listen, I think and that's why I put that in
the first chapter any jobcivilian, military or junior
officer that you start, you gotto figure out real quickly what
the measuring stick is right.
You might think I need to dothis, this and this, but you got
to know what the CO thinks orwhat the department head thinks
or whoever the person that'sgoing to evaluating you.
What they think, that's whatyou need to know and for me that
(11:42):
was critically important, notonly with the admiral.
But every job I ever went to isokay, I know what's important
to me, but that doesn't reallymatter at the end of the day.
Right, for a good boss it willmatter, but what really matters
in terms of my promotion and mysuccessful job is what is
important to the person who'sgoing to be evaluating me.
So I say, get to know what'simportant to your boss very
(12:04):
early on.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
It's a lesson that never goes away, right?
I think that's the funny thing,because when we're talking to
JOs, it's about the departmenthead, the XO, the CEO, yes, but
the day you become the CEO nowit's the Commodore.
The Commodore's got a boss, theAdmiral has a boss, right, you
know what I mean?
And again, and it just can likeit continues to go up and if
you never embrace that mindsetright, like you, you can get
(12:26):
lost pretty quick.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, yeah.
Look, when I became a squadronCO this is fast forward, you
know 15, 20 years later,commanding officer of a patrol
squadron, VP squadron out ofJacksonville, P3 squadron You're
right, I had a Commodore Guesswhat?
He was a Naval Academy graduate.
I was not, and back then, youknow, we still didn't have a
whole lot of equality.
I mean, the top are alwaysAcademy folks and we were doing
(12:48):
this thing called active reserveintegration, where reservists
were integrating with the activecomponent.
I didn't really care for it, Ididn't join the reservists to be
an active duty person, but hedid right.
So I used to tell my squadronlook, this is what we're going
to do.
This is, you know, you cancomplain all you want behind
closed doors, but this is whatwe're going to do because it was
important to him and that'swhat we did.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
We did.
I love it.
We're moving on a little bithere Now.
One of the next lessons thatyou mentioned is all about the
importance of being on time.
It seems so simple, right, likewhen we're talking about this.
It seems so simple like, yeah,be on time, but there's so much
more to it than again, than justthat Again.
(13:29):
Do you mind sharing yourexperience in stories about why
this little piece of information, this tidbit, became such a
critical lesson?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
for you.
Yeah, I just think bosseslooking down especially older
generation or more maturegeneration are always looking at
things like that andpunctuality is so significant,
not only as a leader, but alsoas an inspiring leader.
It just shows whether or notyou can execute a plan, and
being on time is critical andthere were a couple of times I
talk about in the book where Imissed the mark.
(13:54):
One of them I missed the markby a complete hour because I had
miscalculated the time zonegoing from New Orleans to
Jacksonville.
It was terrible and I didn'tget fired.
But I just think it carries overto my job as a lawyer, to my
job as a commanding officer andto now my job as a vice
president.
It's just so important, I think, to be punctual and I think
it's something that we've lost.
(14:16):
We lost a little bit duringCOVID how many meetings did you
join?
Or WebExes did you join?
And they said let's give them10 or 15 minutes for people to
join.
And I'm looking at my watchthinking, no, they should be
just like you did with me, grant, the 10 or 15 minutes should be
before the time, not after thetime.
So I think it's very important,even today, to be on time.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Absolutely, I love it .
Again, it's simple things.
It always reminds me of, youknow, the speech that Admiral
McRaven gave too, talking aboutthe importance of making your
bed right.
These like simple actions,right, but it shows at a greater
level.
Right, the making your bed isjust the accomplishing of a
simple task, but for you, inthis, being on time, right, it's
again to show up on time.
(14:54):
It seems like such a littlething but, like you're saying,
it requires proper planning, itrequires proper execution to
make sure that you'recoordinating all the details to
be there on time.
You're taking care of yourselfand, again, you're adding in
buffers for things that couldhappen right.
Again, it shows if you're aperson who is consistently
punctual, consistently on time.
(15:15):
It means you're well thoughtout and you take action.
Right, you take action.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Dependable, credible.
And let me tell you something,going back to being an aide in
Js, we'll appreciate this.
I mean, anytime we wentsomewhere, I did advanced
planning and back then we didn'thave Waze, we didn't have apps,
we didn't have Google Maps.
I mean, I had an old map with ahighlighter and if we had to be
somewhere at six o'clock in themorning the night before, I
would drive the route and Iwould know exactly how long it
(15:39):
took us to get there, because Icouldn't get to a road that was
closed and look at the album andsay we're going to be late, you
know because?
But I think it's.
I think those are just greatexamples of the fabric of
leadership.
I think that's just one of them.
And I will say Abel McRaven'sbooks are wonderful.
I've read all of them and thebiggest compliment I got on my
book recently as I showedsomebody the cover at Barnes and
(16:00):
Noble I was pitching for them,for for them for what was going
to be an upcoming book signingthere, and they said, oh, I love
the cover, it looks likeAdmiral McRaven's books.
I said that's exactly what.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I was trying to do.
Keep that going, baby.
I love it.
One of my favorite stories thatyou tell in this book is you're
sitting in your barber chairAgain, just a normal person
sitting in their barber chair,talking, talking with their
barber and you mention and youtell the stories of the
admiral's weekend plans, andthen you have a future
(16:30):
conversation with the admiraland he he brings it up that the
fact that you were talking abouthim ended up back to him and
it's a good thing.
It was a positive story.
It's not like you were talkingbad about him, but even the fact
that, like he was discussed,made its way back to him, and so
I want to put it over to you.
Can you highlight theimportance of why words matter
(16:55):
and how small the Navy is and,again, the importance of being
really intentional with yourwords and what you say?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Absolutely, and that's just another great
example of you know why wordsmatter.
What I learned as a JO isincredibly important.
You know, as a lawyer, it's the.
It's the same thing.
That was just a simple episode.
You know, when I started thejob and this is chapter maybe
one, I call it the initialguidance he told me you know,
what I do on my time is mybusiness, it's the business of a
(17:22):
Navy Admiral, nobody else'sbusiness.
So I'm just sitting in thatbarber chair one Saturday, you
know, getting squared away to goon a trip, getting like you
always had to have a haircut.
You know regulation as anAdmiral's aide.
You got to be squared away asthe Admiral's aide because you
are the best of the best.
And I just mentioned, yeah, Iwas going to go over to the
Admiral's house Saturday nightto, you know, to do this, that
and the other, no big deal, justwhat I call in the book
(17:43):
scuttlebutt.
Right, it's a?
Well, look that up, it's awonderful, maybe term for what
you shouldn't be doing gossiping.
And then I get in the car withthe Admiral Monday morning and
he says I see you got yourhaircut.
I'm like going yeah, okay, hesaw, I got my haircut.
And then he says Jack's a goodbarber, isn't he?
(18:04):
And what does Jack do?
Jack did what all barbers doesdo.
He said I heard you hadsomething at your house last
night and the admiral's thinking.
Who in the world told him that?
Well, there was only one person.
He's smart.
He connected the dots and againto his leadership style.
All he said was don't let thathappen again.
And I said yes, sir, it willnot.
I say that a couple of times inthe book.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yes, sir it will not Absolutely.
Again, that one's, that one's.
It's a funny story, right, andit's a.
It's a good lesson to learn,without really severe
consequences, because it I'msure a lot of people have
experienced that with a moreunfortunate choice of
storytelling.
Right, and you know, it's a, a.
It's an interesting piece tothink about.
But again, when we talk aboutall these leadership aspects and
(18:48):
trying to it was something youmentioned earlier too as well
about, you know, not almostabusing the power of being an
aid to burn bridges, right Again, relationships matter, right
Relationships matter, and youneed to be really, again,
strategic and tactical with yourwords as well as you're doing
these things to make sure thatyou're never putting anyone in a
in a bad spot.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, yeah, and that's true for good or bad
leaders.
You know, I've had, I've gotthree daughters and a couple of
times one of them has said to meyou know it's, we're not
talking about fair, we'retalking about success and
relationships.
And how do you navigate that asa young leader who aspires to
be a better leader?
Speaker 1 (19:31):
One of your next lessons I think resonates so
much with midshipmen andsomething I talk about a lot on
this platform, and it's aboutasking for help when you need it
.
I feel like many timesmidshipmen and young JLs have a
hard time with this.
Right, they have such a highindividual success rate.
Right, they're high individualperformers.
Absolutely, they can do anythingon their own, and a lot of
(19:53):
times kind of become ashamedwhen they can't Right, and so my
question to you again is howdid you learn this lesson, and
why is it so important to beable to ask for help?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, you know, I learned it on another one.
You read in the book I'm takingthe animal to a war room of a
destroyer, a small ship, and Iround the corner because I think
I know the route and the routeis blocked by a sailor who's
buffing the deck and it'scrisscrossed off with tape and
he's not going to let us by.
So I looked at my watch.
I'm like, okay, I got 10minutes to get there.
What am I going to do?
Well, I'm going to ask for help.
And that's just a small exampleof what you're talking about.
(20:33):
But it does take a lot ofswallow and humble pride to ask
for help.
But what I've learned is it'samazing, amazing.
The people who will help you,who will wrap their arms around
you and say, okay, I got it,I've been there, I'll take care
of you.
And I learned that also in mylegal career when I was once,
you know, I filed a pleadinglate.
I was in default.
(20:54):
I didn't know what to do.
I mean, it's potentially legalmalpractice to do that.
I was at a big law firm.
I didn't want to admit it.
I slept two or three nightsworrying about it and then I
went down the hall and asked apartner hey, I need your help.
And he took care of me.
So I think for midshipmen andfor people who aspire to lead,
always ask for help, becausethings that are bad don't get
(21:14):
better over time.
Just get the help that you needand people will be glad to help
you.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I wholeheartedly agree, especially the fact that
people will be there to help you, especially in the Navy and
especially at the Naval Academy.
I think this piece is reallyinteresting.
It's actually a conversation Ihad with Chowda, and so if you
haven't listened to the podcastepisode with Chowda, I highly
recommend you go check it out,because it's awesome and he's
such a great personality.
He's the CEO of the USSEisenhower and he kind of shares
(21:40):
his reflections on leadershipand deployment.
He kind of shares hisreflections on leadership and
deployment, but he kind ofalways talks about the fact that
, like hey, I truly believe,even if people don't articulate
it, the reason people join theNavy is somewhere deep down
inside of them.
They have this desire to serveright, the desire to help people
.
(22:01):
Whether or not, again it's atthe forefront of their mind of
why they're doing it.
Like people are called and havea, you know, an attraction to
the service, because of thatdesire to be a part of something
bigger than themselves, in anorganization that, like, helps
each other Right.
And so in this, in thisorganization just doubling down
on what you said again if youhave the humility, the ability
to swallow again your pride andask for help and be genuine
(22:22):
about it, like there were goingto be a lot of people who are
going to be willing to help you,and they're going to be a lot
of people, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
I've never had anybody look at me and say I'm
not going to help you.
You're on your own.
I mean never.
And and the key with asking forhelp is sometimes you're at
that turning point in your roadwhere you're either going to go
bad or get help and go good.
And it's wonderful to go theother way Go good, without a
doubt.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
When you show up, you turn the corner and that P-way
is blocked off.
I'm sure you get a littlefeeling of panic in there, a
little feeling of like, oh snap,what do I do now?
One of your next lessons thatyou talk about in this book is
about the fact that you can'tpanic under pressure.
I know you personally didn't goto the Naval Academy where I
(23:12):
think for a lot of peoplelistening, plebe summer is
really our first training intothis idea of not panicking under
pressure, because you live anentire summer constantly under
pressure.
Yep, do you have anyexperiences similar to this that
set the foundation for you inthat way?
What lessons did you learnalong the way that helped you
again not panic under pressure?
Why do you think this is soimportant, again, for young
(23:33):
aspiring leaders?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, listen, I was not fortunate enough to go to
the academy but I tell you twoof my best friends did.
I've heard all stories and somany of my shipmates in the Navy
have told me those stories andI just enjoy them.
Td Smyers was class of 84,retired as a Navy captain, ran
track at the Academy and had arecord there that held for 18
years.
Another friend of mine, daveFlieger, best friend from high
(23:57):
school, went to the Academy.
Eyesight went bad, got a crosscommission into the Air Force
and ended up flying B-52s out ofMinot, north Dakota.
That was his punishment forgoing into the Air Force, but
he's now a lawyer.
But back to the point, both ofthem are great Academy graduates
who have told me about thestories within the walls of
Bancroft Hall and on thatbeautiful campus and sure look
(24:19):
as a midshipman.
In Chapel Hill I rememberstanding on the AstroTurf field
with the gunnery sergeantyelling and screaming hotter
than blazes.
Nothing compared to being atthe academy.
But in my own little microcosmof being in a uniform at a
liberal arts school at ChapelHill, still having people look
(24:40):
at you, and this guy picked meout, gunny Klonowski.
He picked me out to yell at meconstantly and I was like Gunny,
why are you yelling at me allthe time?
I didn't get it and I called mydad.
I said, dad, I think I'm goingto quit.
I mean, I didn't come here toput up with this BS because if
I'd wanted to do this, I wouldhave gone to the Civil War, I
would have gone to the Academy,right, I don't want this.
And Dad said, stick in there,right?
And the funny thing is thatGunny called me into his office
(25:00):
that Thursday or Friday to yellat me.
He made me stand at parade,rest and watch motivational
films of the Marines attackingIwo Jima, and then he'd asked me
if I'd come to my senses yet,because he had a red name tag on
his desk that had my last nameon it.
You know what that means, grant.
As a midshipman, if you've gota red name tag, you're a Marine
option.
And I said, gunny, I said whyare you picking on me?
And he said who do you want meto pick on?
(25:20):
I said, how about my buddy,johnny Hearn?
He's right, you know he's.
The next day, me and Johnnywere standing side by side
getting yelled out by the gunny.
And what a wonderful time.
And there were clearly times asan aide and I talk about one of
them in the book when I evengot the car stuck with the
admiral in it.
I mean there's plenty ofopportunity to panic when that
(25:41):
happens for him or for me, butyou just can't do that.
You know you've got to channelthat energy into something
positive.
And how do I get out of thissituation?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
And, like I was saying, repetition is really
important in that field, right,because those are real human
emotion, right, like thephysiological response to panic
is something you have to getused to.
Right and being able to stillhave logic prevail and be a
thinker in that state of kind offight or flight, right, very
(26:11):
difficult, especially as a JOright Very difficult.
Absolutely so.
Again, it's something that youcontinue to grow and learn on.
But, again, that's why theseexperiences are so important,
because it's one more repetitionright, it's another repetition
of overcoming failure, of facingadversity, of navigating and
handling those situations ofhigh stress, high pressure
(26:31):
moments, right when panic can.
Again, like you were sayingearlier, again you can go two
paths right when you're put inthis situation, and you know for
young leaders to haverepetitions of that.
So that way again, because yourpanic situations as a J-O are
going to be very different thanyour panic situations as a
commanding officer or as the CEOof a company right.
(26:53):
Like those, panic situations area little higher stakes.
So again it comes down tomaking sure you have the
repetitions to be able to belogically inclined in those
moments.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Yeah, take a deep breath, right, and I learned
this just in the past 10 or 15years.
Don't let the amygdala hijack,take over.
Just a couple of seconds, takea breath, figure out the path to
success rather than panicking.
And then the other thing thatwe talk about a lot and I know
this is huge at the Academy andas a JO it's just the teamwork,
right.
Nobody wants to be in the room,or on the p3 or in the f18
(27:26):
two-seater, that is, or on thedeck the quarter deck of someone
who's freaking out andpanicking.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
You know that's not a good trait of a leadership, of
a leader and I want to followthat path, actually, because one
of your next lessons isactually all about being a great
team player, which is somethingI talk about constantly as well
, but do you mind sharing withus, in your opinion, what being
a great team player means to youand the impact it can have on
an organization when you'refilled with people who are great
(27:51):
team players?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, the organization can go so much
further.
And, grant, you recognize thisbecause of your time doing
collegiate sports.
I didn't do sports, but Ifigured it out pretty quickly in
the corporate world and I didin the Navy too.
Right, everybody wants to workwith a team player, somebody who
helps others along the way.
And the neat thing is, if youhelp others build that team, you
(28:15):
go a lot further and they'regoing to help you right, if you
each want the other to succeed,it's just wonderful and the team
as a unit moves so much further.
The morale is so much better.
Right, everybody enjoys work.
You enjoy each other, not onlyat work, but socially.
You enjoy being with otherpeople.
So I think that's just a hugething of a leader, because when
(28:39):
you're looking around the room,the person that's a team player
is the one you want to be theteam leader ultimately.
The captain, right?
The captain of the basketballteam 100%, right, 100%.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
And again, I think that's something that's critical
.
Right, is being a great teamplayer and it's something that's
funny because I watch as anynormal weird person would do
watch Simon S sinek video,youtube videos in my free time,
just talking about life andleadership.
Right, and you know, one of hisconversations is is all about
that organization and people whoare great team players and have
(29:11):
the trust of an organizationand they're like, hey, when you
walk into any organization,right, if you were to ask like
hey, who's who's the best teamplayer?
Right, who's like everyone,immediately is right and be like
it's that person?
Right, and at the same time,and you're like who, who?
I never cuss on this on thisshow but like who's the asshole?
Right, like who's who's thejerk?
(29:33):
Everyone also is going to belike unanimous, right, unanimous
so, but but again, it's reallyimportant because of that to be
a great team player.
Again, these are the separatorsand these are conscious actions
.
Right, it's not just 100%personality based.
These are things that you cancontrol, right, and so it's just
(29:54):
so important to take advantageof those and you talk about and
it goes back to even theconversations and the
scuttlebutt and all thesedifferent things is your
reputation matters and the Navyis really small, right?
And if you are known as someonewho's a great team player,
right, that that is just goingto garner so much support for
you as you go through theprocess as well, like they're
(30:15):
going to be people who are goingto want to take care of you,
because they know that you'regoing to do the same, right?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
absolutely.
I think you hit on something.
Everybody thinks the Navy is sobig, but we both know that once
you figure out what yourwarfare specialty is going to be
, and wherever you go, you'regoing to see the same people and
those people are going to go tosome other ship and then a year
or two later they're eithergoing to be ahead of you or next
to you or below you and they'regoing to remember you and it's
(30:41):
the same.
You know.
I remember.
You know, when I was trying tofigure out whether to transfer
into the reserves, you know Iwas complaining to my sister
about you know.
Well, I'm seeing this and I'mseeing that in the Navy and I
love the Navy, like you, but Ijust don't know if I want to be
doing this.
And my daughter I'm sorry, mysister, who was working for Bank
of America at the time, sayswhat makes you think that's any
different in the corporate world?
(31:02):
It's the same thing, the sameprecepts, which is something I
say through the book.
And you know your basketballcareer.
You'll notice in the book,under the team player section,
there's one heading that sayspoint to the assist.
And if you know basketball, Iwent to Chapel Hill.
I was there when Michael Jordanwas there, I saw it.
But what did Dean Smith teachhis players when they scored off
(31:26):
an assist?
They always point to the assist.
That is a team player, and Idon't say that in the book, but
the heading is there just forthat reason.
How cool is it to acknowledgeyour success based on what
somebody else has done for you?
That's a team player.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
A team player.
I love it and I'm glad youbrought that up, because even
today, I'm so glad that thatteaching made its way into
basketball.
Like that's so commonplace now.
Right, it's like anytime youscore right, like it's like it's
a point and it'sacknowledgement to the guy who
assisted, assisted you right,and say hey, like, thank you,
right, like that happenedbecause of you, right,
(31:58):
absolutely, which is which isreally cool.
And obviously I love basketballreferences.
I'm a basketball fan.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I love Carolinabasketball.
Well, that's the other thing.
The pointing to the assist isexactly what we're talking about
.
I mentioned this.
In it Somebody would say, oh,mark did a great job.
Well, guess what?
The week later I'd be in ameeting and say, oh, that person
did a great job.
And it just fuels friendshipand morale and the teamness of
getting things done.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Absolutely Shifting to some of the last couple
lessons that you have in thebook and there are plenty more
in the book than what we'vetouched on.
I've kind of just highlightedsome of the ones that resonated
most with me and were mostinteresting to bring up in this
format, and I'm especiallyexcited to talk about this one
because it's something that'sreally interesting.
I've actually talked about theidea of loyalty before and
(32:42):
integrity, and I kind of have ahot take Sometimes I get a bad
taste of in my mouth with theword loyalty, because it feels
to me like it's this idea oflike blind loyalty to a person
versus like we're saying theintegrity to ideals and if we
both have integrity to somethingright, like then we're going to
be operating in the same way.
But do you mind talking abouthow those two ideas of loyalty
(33:05):
and integrity in your mind, howthey integrate together right,
and so I'd love to hear yourthoughts on it and why you think
it's so important again in thedevelopment of a young leader.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, that's.
That's.
That's great because it is astruggle, right.
There's this push pull andsomeone might criticize a junior
officer.
Well, you're too loyal toso-and-so, you're too loyal to
that person.
And I say, in the military andin the civilian world, you
should be loyal to your employerand you should be loyal to your
boss.
I mean, that's part of theconfidential and trusting
relationship that the boss orthe company has with you.
(33:38):
And if you get to the pointthat you can't do that, it's
time to go.
Go somewhere else, do somethingelse.
But I know this very wellbecause, reading the audio book,
this sentence stuck out with meis integrity always trumps
loyalty, right.
(33:58):
And the same LieutenantCommander who became an Admiral
Jag is in the book and I don'tthink he minds me mentioning his
name Lieutenant Commander HankMalenango.
At the time, admiral Malenango,he told me I let him read the
manuscript and he says you knowwhat, in that section I think
you missed the mark.
You've got to strengthen theintegrity component.
Because he knew that's what Iwas trying to say.
You don't blindly followsomebody who's leading you down
a path that's doing somethingillegal or immoral but at the
(34:21):
same time, if it's just theirjudgment, you might not
necessarily agree with it, youshould be loyal to them and
carry out the plan of the day,as we say, right.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Absolutely Right and it's it's a, it is right, it's
really important and requires alittle bit of subjectivity as
well, of like, again, whatthings do you just not agree
with versus what things arequite literally like wrong,
right, from a, from a moralitystandpoint, from an integrity
standpoint, right, and thosewere the.
You know, those things comeabout and I agree, right, like
they're going to be.
(34:49):
Plenty of times, you know, wetalk about case studies at the,
at the Naval Academy, pleadleadership in your classes.
Right, they're going to comeand talk about gaming the XO.
Right Like.
A lot of times you can just notagree with XO and just blame
him.
Right, it's like, oh no, the XOtold us to do this.
I don't agree with it.
Right, like that, you ain'tbeing loyal to the command there
.
Right, like that's a, that's abad spot.
(35:11):
And again, now, if the XO istelling you to do in more like
wrong things, right, that'sagain, that's where the
integrity piece comes in.
But I really like how you framethat Because, again, I do think
, in the right context, boththings are so tremendously
important and I love that.
You highlighted again that atevery moment in time, integrity
will trump loyalty.
(35:32):
Right Like, integrity is.
That is that core again theadherence to the core values.
It's aligning your actions toyour values consistently, day in
and day out, and so I love thatchapter.
I thought it was a really areally cool in-depth discussion
about those two topics, right,and what those two words mean.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yeah, yeah, it kills me when I see phenomenal
officers and we see them all thetime Grant, we see Academy guys
, ROTC guys, OCS folks who makeit to the top and for whatever
reason they strayed in somehownot loyalty or integrity, but
straight up dishonesty has creptin and ruins just a phenomenal
career.
(36:09):
And I I scratched my head.
And then you talk about casestudies.
You know, when I was in, theonly thing I want I wanted to do
two things as a squadron CO, Iwanted to make sure I got
through the command withoutanybody getting to the best of
my ability, without anybodybeing injured or killed.
So make sound decisions inflying those planes and sending
them places.
But, more importantly for mepersonally, professionally,
(36:30):
never be on the front page ofNavy Times for an issue that I
would be embarrassed aboutMaking, an immoral or a decision
that you know you stray fromintegrity.
And how do people get?
There is always a headscratcher to me.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
I agree.
We're going to flip the topicback to positive here to end it
up, which I love, which is againyou ended the book on probably
my favorite thing, and againit's something that Chowda talks
about a lot.
It's something that CaptainJervie talks about a lot In an
episode I talked with him whichis this idea of always taking
care of your people, and there'sanother chapter that you have
(37:04):
in there which is about sayingthank you and being grateful,
and so there's a line in hereand it's something you mentioned
earlier in the episode.
I heard it earlier in theepisode which I loved is you
said there are a couple of timeswhere the Admiral could have
fired me, but instead he helpedme, right, and so can you talk
(37:25):
about the importance of thisidea of taking care of your
people and what that reallymeans and where this idea of
constantly saying thank you andbeing grateful like plays into
that?
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, so you know the taking care of your people.
You know the book is aboutlessons from the Admiral and
I've written another articleabout.
You know what I learned fromthe judge also another mentor in
my life but the key person whoI learned from first was my dad.
My dad was a Navy captain and Iknow the folks that have
students at the Academy now whoare military or who also come
(37:52):
from military families know thisand I know a JO knows this.
But my dad told me when I wascommissioned and dad
commissioned me at the Old Well,the University of North
Carolina, chapel Hill, 1985, onMother's Day, I remember it as
clear as day and he gave me asword, a sword that he had worn,
and he said to me he said, mark, listen to your chiefs and take
care of your sailors.
(38:12):
That's all he told me.
He didn't tell me anything elseabout being in the Navy.
He said listen to your chiefs.
He didn't say be on time.
Loyalty, integrity.
He just told me those twothings and he said if you do
those two things, you're goingto do just fine.
And wow, that is exactly what Idid.
And how many times did a chiefsave my tail right Because he
(38:34):
liked me and because I wasn't ajerk and because I wasn't a one
way, because I knew that as ayoung Lieutenant or JG or ensign
, I didn't know more than thechief and I needed the chief to
help educate me and I knowChowda mentioned that too.
I mean, that's a hugephilosophy that you better
understand, and it's the samething in the civilian world.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
It goes back to exactly what we were talking
about earlier you have to beable to ask for help, right.
What we were talking aboutearlier is you have to be able
to ask for help right, and ifyou can go and have the humility
to go to that relationship withthe chief and be like we are a
team, we are a partnership andI'm like I need your help, like
there's so much stuff I don'tknow right, like I want to be a
resource for you as well, I wantto be an advocate in the
(39:13):
wardroom, I want to be able to,like again, help run this
division, but also like there'sa lot that I that I need from
you, and like even justdiscovering life as a junior
officer.
I think this is somethingthat's really interesting.
I had a conversation with thisguy, anthony Amato, who was the
command master chief of the USSJohn Warner when I was deploying
and you know now he's over atsquadron one as the squadron CMC
(39:37):
and he's just like dynamics andmultiple relationships between
a JO and a chief, and you knowhis thing was just 100 percent.
Again, what it comes down to ishe's like I want to see you
succeed, I want to help you, butyou need to be open to it.
Right, like this is a two waystreet where we have to work
together.
And like I will, I will teachyou.
(39:59):
And it's so funny because,again, his thing is really
interesting, because it kind ofcatches people by ear when he
says it.
He's like we need to treatjunior officers like junior
sailors from a personal aspect,because it's a 22-year-old
person who's never been on aship before and they're walking
around with no idea what's goingon.
They've never received an LES,they've never had something go
(40:21):
wrong with their pay, they'venever dealt with a rental lease
agreement or purchasing a home.
Like there's so many thingsabout life that they've never
experienced that like a chief isgoing to have to help them with
.
Right, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Chief, I don't know what I'm doing here and they'll
do that.
And the neat thing about whatwe call the goat locker in the
Navy.
The neat thing about the chiefsall the way up to the master
(40:56):
chiefs, because when I was acommand CO in your ear, if they
like you and you've been good tothem, hey, skipper, you might
want to think about this.
Hey, lt, you know they don'tcall you Lieutenant.
Hey, lt, you know, next timeyou're standing watch you might
want to do this.
And when I was a midshipman Imentioned this in the book.
You know, on a midshipman cruise, with some academy folks
(41:22):
falling asleep up at the doingthe watch, at you know, zero
three hundred, a chiefquartermaster comes over.
He says, hey, midshipman, drinkthis.
And it's a cup of coffee.
And I've been drinking coffeeever since.
But he knew that I was gettingready to get in trouble because
here I am, you're not supposedto fall asleep on the watch, be
it at the academy or as a jailor as a midshipman.
And the chief saw me and savedmy tail by giving me a cup of
coffee.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
And you will never find more people falling asleep,
standing up, than you do in themilitary.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
It's wildly impressive, or sleeping anywhere
.
I mean I can sleep.
People are like how can youfall asleep there?
I say, look, I can fall asleepanywhere.
Any kind of noise you knowanywhere, based on my time in
the Navy.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
All right, well, mark , thank you so much for taking
the time to share your insightabout this book.
One last thing before we getready to wrap up here, which
would be what's your bestrecruiting pitch for why young
men and women should consider anaval education and career in
the military, and what theselessons meant to you and why
other people should pursue thispath.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah, I tell people this all the time and you hit on
it earlier, grant there's nobetter feeling than service.
Right, you might not be thehighest paid, you might work
longer hours than anybody else,but there's no better feeling
than serving your country orserving others.
So that's sort of theintangible but very prideful
(42:39):
component.
You know, there's that greatquote at the Navy Memorial where
you know you think about allthe great things you've done in
your life.
The greatest thing I did was Idon't remember exactly but I
think it was Kennedy said.
You know, I served the UnitedStates Navy and then,
secondarily and more practicallyspeaking, there's no better way
to start, right, you want to goall the old slogan, join the
(42:59):
Navy and see the world stilltrue today.
The experiences, the leadership, what you get handed to you so
quickly, so fast, the people.
I have yet to find thatcamaraderie in anywhere, in law
firms and major corporationsanywhere else.
You cannot replicate it.
Be it you do six or seven years, like me and you, and then
transfer to the civilian world.
There's no better place tostart than, I would say, the
(43:22):
Navy.
I guess I could broaden it tosay the Armed Forces, but we're
going to stick on this podcastto the Navy.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
And that's what I'm going to do?
Absolutely no, I love every bitof that.
I'm going to take 30 secondsjust to highlight that again.
Which the service to others, tome especially, is such a unique
, wildly cool piece right.
Service to nation 100%.
That's what you're going to bedoing, the mission of your unit,
et cetera.
But there is no betteropportunity to make a positive
(43:50):
impact in people's lives thanbeing a military junior officer.
Right the day you graduate as a22-year-old or 23-year year old
, there are going to be 10 to 15people who are looking at you
for you to help them and you aregoing to have the rank and
authority and ability, if youchoose, to invest in those
relationships, to genuinely makea positive impact in those
(44:11):
people's lives.
At what point do you get to dothat as a 22 or 23 year old
elsewhere?
Really, like you, you don'tright, you don't?
You know.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
I can't think of one one one civilian job that allows
you that much responsibility toimpact people's lives, like you
said, and then to feel really,really good about it.
Right, it's just a wonderfulfeeling.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
There's a real sense of fulfillment, so it's
beautiful.
Well, mark, thank you so muchagain for taking the time today.
I'll turn it over to you If youhave any last words or thoughts
that you want to leave with theaudience.
Otherwise, thank you so muchfor being here and sharing your
insight and wisdom.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
No, listen.
I'll just close by saying thankyou to the midshipmen and to
the parents who are listening,because you really have taken
the call for service and it'svolunteer service right.
No one told you to do it,you're just doing it on your own
and really appreciate Grant theopportunity of being on this
podcast.
I can't wait to hear it andthank you again for having me
Really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
And again, for anyone who islistening or watching here,
lessons from the Admiral, itcomes out Tuesday, january 28th,
so if you want to order a copy,make sure to do that.
Again, mark, thank you so muchfor being on here and sharing
your wisdom and insight with acouple of C stories.
The best way to do it.
It's the best way to do it,absolutely.
So appreciate it.
(45:24):
Thank you all so much.
It's the Academy Insideraudience.
Please reach out if you haveany questions.
It's always a pleasure and Ilook forward to helping you,
however I can.
So feel free to reach out,thank you.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode of the Academy
Insider Podcast.
I really hope you liked it,enjoyed it and learned something
during this time.
If you did, please feel free tolike and subscribe or leave a
(45:45):
comment about the episode.
We really appreciate to hearyour feedback about everything
and continue to make AcademyInsider an amazing service that
guides, serves and supportsmidshipmen, future midshipmen
and their families.
Thank you.
Welcome to Season 2 of the Academy Insider Podcast.
Academy Insider is a 501c3nonprofit organization that
serves midshipmen, futuremidshipmen and their families.
At its core, this podcast isdesigned to bring together a
community of Naval Academygraduates and those affiliated
with the United States NavalAcademy in order to tell stories
and provide a little bit ofinsight into what life at the
(00:22):
Naval Academy is really like.
I hope you enjoy it.
Thank you so much for listeningand reach out if you ever have
any questions.
Hey everyone, and welcome backto the Academy Insider Podcast.
In today's episode I'm joined byMark Fava, which just is about
to release and publish a bookcalled Lessons from the Admiral,
which is an incredible coolinsight into military leadership
, and it's actually it'll catchyou off guard it's actually not
(00:44):
about his time as an admiral.
It's about his time andreflections upon working for an
admiral as an admiral's aide.
So if you just are wondering,you're like, what the heck is an
admiral's aide?
Well, listen to the episodebecause we're going to answer
that question.
But we're also going to talk alot about leadership lessons
that he learned in that spot foryoung military junior officers
trying to make their way up inthe ranks and kind of navigating
(01:04):
the difficulties of being amilitary junior officer.
So, again, if that's somethingthat you're interested in, make
sure to check out this episode.
I think you'll really love it.
And again, if you know anyonewho you think would enjoy this
or benefit from this platform,please share it with them.
It would mean the world to me.
Otherwise, I really hope youenjoy the listen.
Thank you so much.
Have a great day.
Thank you so much.
(01:45):
With a trusted Academyaffiliated agent in the market
which you're in, please reachout to me directly at grant at
the premier groupcom.
You can also reach out to me onmy LinkedIn page grant from
here and I'd be happy to respondto you there.
Thank you so much, and nowlet's get back to the episode.
Hey everyone, and welcome backto the Academy insider podcast.
Mark, thank you so much fortaking the time to join us today
to talk about again the releaseof your new book, lessons from
(02:06):
the Admiral, and run us throughagain with the hope to inspire
and provide a little bit ofinsight into the life and
(02:26):
leadership journey anddevelopment of a young junior
officer and potentially even amidshipman.
And so, before we jump intothat, if you don't mind just
giving a brief introduction ofyourself to the audience, where
you're from, how you ended up inthe Navy and then kind of your
path through the Navy into whatyou're doing now.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
That would be awesome kind of your path through the
Navy into what you're doing now.
That would be awesome.
Sure, listen.
Thanks so much.
It's such an honor to be onthis podcast and especially with
your audience.
I am a Navy brat.
Dad was in the Navy, dad was asupply corps captain and like
many folks, we moved toCharleston when I was young
because dad was stationed inCharleston, so that became home
(03:03):
and from there high school here.
I went to University of NorthCarolina at Chapel Hill and at
the time Dad said if you'regoing out of state much like you
would get at the academy hesaid you better get a
scholarship because you got akid ahead of you and a kid
behind you.
I can't afford three at once.
If you can't get a scholarship,then you're going to go in
state at either Clemson or SouthCarolina, both great schools.
(03:24):
Clemson didn't have a navalROTC unit, chapel Hill did so.
I graduated from Chapel Hill in1985 as a young midshipman,
finished up as the battalioncommander there what a cool
place it was and then went toflight school, ended up being a
naval flight officer in P3'sjunior officer tour and I got to
where I am today because I hada lieutenant commander, jag
officer that was mentoring meand I got to where I am today
(03:44):
because I had a LieutenantCommander JAG officer that was
mentoring me and I was the legalofficer in the Navy squadron.
So after six years I decidedthat the Cold War was over.
I want to do something else, alittle bit fun.
Stay in the reserves, but wentto law school, and that's where
I got to where I am now.
So 30 years later, graduatedfrom University of South
Carolina Law School in 1994.
How about that?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Well, way cool, and all of those experiences through
your time in the Navy andbeyond led you again to getting
ready to publish this book,which will come out on Tuesday,
titled Lessons from the Admiral,which really highlights and
documents your experienceactually as a flag aide.
And so I think that was reallycool, because originally, when I
had seen the title as well, Ithink, like many will assume
(04:23):
it's like oh hey, it's anadmiral sharing their
experiences, but it's actually alittle bit different.
It's your experience ofwitnessing your boss a great
boss that you had, anddocumenting some of these
incredible life and leadershiplessons you learned along the
way.
And so, to provide a littlecontext for the listener as well
, do you mind talking about whata flag aid is Like?
(04:44):
What does that mean whensomeone hears this term flag aid
?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, listen, it was a phenomenal job.
So I finished my first tour inthe squadron I was thinking
about going to be a Naval FlightOfficer instructor and the same
mentor, the same LieutenantCommander, who ultimately
retired as a JAG Admiral yearslater, said hey, did you ever
think about being a flag aid?
And I said no, what is it andwhat do you do?
The same question, and it's anincredible job.
(05:08):
You are the Admiral's numberone point person for everything
they do every single day andyou're responsible for getting
them where they need to be, theexcellence in how they get there
, how they present themselvesand at the same time, you get to
see everything behind thescenes of the Admiral's life.
And that really was formativefor me because it was my first
(05:30):
job where I was working thatclosely with a boss that was
that senior to me.
And that was the lessons, andI've been thinking about them
for 30 years.
How about?
Speaker 1 (05:38):
it and when you're writing this book, when you're
thinking about the end in mindof the takeaway, before we even
dive into some of the lessonsthat you did learn, what were
you hoping for people to takeaway from this book?
What was the intention behindit?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, the intention was exactly what you hit on.
This isn't me talking about meas a leader.
It's me talking about how Iobserved a leader, and my
philosophy is you become aleader based on observing both
good and bad leaders andincorporating both their
strengths and their weaknesses.
So that was the takeaway of thebook.
Look what I learned in this jobfrom this admiral.
(06:14):
Many, many years ago had becomepart of my fabric, of how I
operate today.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
And just to highlight and really double down on your
point about the flag aid, it isa really important position and
it's a really competitive job aswell.
There's a lot of selectionprocess that goes into who
becomes flag aids, that numberone assistant again to the
admirals, and in many casesagain my time is a midshipman.
Just to highlight this, therewas an officer, lieutenant Kayla
(06:40):
Barron, who was a submarineofficer.
She became the aid to AdmiralCarter who was the
superintendent of the NavalAcademy and now she's an
astronaut right With NASA right,and so obviously it's an
extreme example.
But again, when we talk aboutand highlight some of these
things just for midshipmanparents or parents of officers
out there, again, being a flagaid gives you incredible
(07:02):
opportunity to buildrelationships with a lot of
these people who have theconnections to again help open
doors to get you where you wantto go in life Right.
It's arduous but it's great.
A lot of opportunity.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
The best 18 months of my life in terms of learning
that and building exactly whatyou said the network.
You're you know, you hear thatphrase in Top Gun the best of
the best.
Well, really, as an aide,that's what you're picked.
I mean, the selection is brutaland once you get it, it's a
very, very difficult thing to do.
But boy, as I look today back,whenever I connect with people
(07:36):
on LinkedIn, you'd be amazed atthe number of people who are
leading the aircraft, carrierscommanding the squadrons, or the
SWOs, captains of the ships,who are now also admirals.
And when I scroll down, I seeflag aid to so-and-so and
so-and-so and I laugh becauseI'll connect with them and I say
(07:58):
, hey, I see you're also amember of Order of the Loop,
because we've all been there,done that.
Everybody knows what the job isand what it is.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Do you mind just breaking down that term, the
order of the loop, because Ithink this is actually really
funny and maybe a key littlething for again a parent walking
through the Naval Academy whosees an officer with the loop.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, so you know, order comes from anything like
in law school.
There's order of the coif,order of this, order of all
these honorary societies.
Order of the Loop is calledOrder of the Loop because when
you're the aid, you get to weara yellow and gold I'm sorry, a
golden blue braid on yourshoulder, and the higher the
stars, the apple, are, the morebraids you have, and that's
(08:35):
called an agri-led French.
I took Spanish but you got toget that right.
And the neat thing about thatis here you are as a very young
junior officer maybe four years,five years out of the academy,
and you're walking around withthis admiral.
But sometimes you're notwalking around with the admiral
and people got to listen to youand they got to do what you say
and they don't break you.
So the agulet is a wonderfulsymbol that tells people hey,
(08:59):
I'm saying this for somebodyelse and it needs to be done.
It's a really really neat thing, really neat thing.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Because again in this book you actually talk about a
couple of times to where theAdmiral tells you to use his
stars sparingly, right, butsometimes you don't even have to
because you, just you carry itwith your uniform, right, Like
people see that and they know.
Right Like they understand,yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
No doubt about it.
I mean, it's a delicate balanceand junior officers understand
this right as an ensign inwhatever community you are, even
as a JG and the lieutenant.
If you're smart, you're goingto realize that the people
you're dealing with now areultimately going to either be
your CO later, the lieutenantcommanders and commanders, or
they're going to be yourcolleagues or they're going to
be your colleagues.
So when you're using the starsand the aggolot, you got to be
(09:45):
careful, but you got to get thejob done.
But you really don't want toupset people or piss people off
too terribly because they willremember you Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
So I appreciate that that's a funny little tidbit.
I'm glad we got to talk aboutthat gold.
I'm just going to keep usingthe term loop as a normal person
, the as a normal person, thegold loop around the shoulder,
because it is a funny again,it's an indicator and that
hopefully a little piece of thatinsider knowledge for all you
listening.
Again, if you see an officerwalking around with that gold
loop, you can know oh, like,that is an aid, right, that is
an aid to an accident, and soand listen.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
you've seen these too .
And one more thing for ourfamilies and parents.
So the ceremonial loop isphenomenal, I mean it.
It straps around two or threedifferent places.
Has, you know, cords hangingdown?
We used to call that theAnaconda snake, it was just all
over the place.
So when you're at a real bigceremony, the apple is dressed
up, you're dressed up and theceremonial loop is very, very
(10:37):
beautiful.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Very cool, all right.
Well, let's jump into some ofthese lessons that you cover in
this book, and I want to giveyou the opportunity to to talk
about some of these lessons thatyou cover in this book.
And I want to give you theopportunity to talk about some
of these.
And the first one that youmentioned, and I thought it's
really interesting because,again, a lot of time when people
are reading a leadership book,they're assuming, like you
mentioned, it's going to be atop-down leadership thing.
They're telling you how to leaddown, right, but your first
(11:00):
lesson is actually all aboutknowing your boss and
understanding your boss.
Why is this lesson so important?
What did you learn during yourtime?
And then, specifically, why isthis lesson critical?
For JOs right, who are going tohave multiple bosses their
department head, an XO, a COright how does this lesson
relate to them and what shouldthey focus on?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah, listen, I think and that's why I put that in
the first chapter any jobcivilian, military or junior
officer that you start, you gotto figure out real quickly what
the measuring stick is right.
You might think I need to dothis, this and this, but you got
to know what the CO thinks orwhat the department head thinks
or whoever the person that'sgoing to evaluating you.
What they think, that's whatyou need to know and for me that
(11:42):
was critically important, notonly with the admiral.
But every job I ever went to isokay, I know what's important
to me, but that doesn't reallymatter at the end of the day.
Right, for a good boss it willmatter, but what really matters
in terms of my promotion and mysuccessful job is what is
important to the person who'sgoing to be evaluating me.
So I say, get to know what'simportant to your boss very
(12:04):
early on.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
It's a lesson that never goes away, right?
I think that's the funny thing,because when we're talking to
JOs, it's about the departmenthead, the XO, the CEO, yes, but
the day you become the CEO nowit's the Commodore.
The Commodore's got a boss, theAdmiral has a boss, right, you
know what I mean?
And again, and it just can likeit continues to go up and if
you never embrace that mindsetright, like you, you can get
(12:26):
lost pretty quick.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, yeah.
Look, when I became a squadronCO this is fast forward, you
know 15, 20 years later,commanding officer of a patrol
squadron, VP squadron out ofJacksonville, P3 squadron You're
right, I had a Commodore Guesswhat?
He was a Naval Academy graduate.
I was not, and back then, youknow, we still didn't have a
whole lot of equality.
I mean, the top are alwaysAcademy folks and we were doing
(12:48):
this thing called active reserveintegration, where reservists
were integrating with the activecomponent.
I didn't really care for it, Ididn't join the reservists to be
an active duty person, but hedid right.
So I used to tell my squadronlook, this is what we're going
to do.
This is, you know, you cancomplain all you want behind
closed doors, but this is whatwe're going to do because it was
important to him and that'swhat we did.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
We did.
I love it.
We're moving on a little bithere Now.
One of the next lessons thatyou mentioned is all about the
importance of being on time.
It seems so simple, right, likewhen we're talking about this.
It seems so simple like, yeah,be on time, but there's so much
more to it than again, than justthat Again.
(13:29):
Do you mind sharing yourexperience in stories about why
this little piece of information, this tidbit, became such a
critical lesson?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
for you.
Yeah, I just think bosseslooking down especially older
generation or more maturegeneration are always looking at
things like that andpunctuality is so significant,
not only as a leader, but alsoas an inspiring leader.
It just shows whether or notyou can execute a plan, and
being on time is critical andthere were a couple of times I
talk about in the book where Imissed the mark.
(13:54):
One of them I missed the markby a complete hour because I had
miscalculated the time zonegoing from New Orleans to
Jacksonville.
It was terrible and I didn'tget fired.
But I just think it carries overto my job as a lawyer, to my
job as a commanding officer andto now my job as a vice
president.
It's just so important, I think, to be punctual and I think
it's something that we've lost.
(14:16):
We lost a little bit duringCOVID how many meetings did you
join?
Or WebExes did you join?
And they said let's give them10 or 15 minutes for people to
join.
And I'm looking at my watchthinking, no, they should be
just like you did with me, grant, the 10 or 15 minutes should be
before the time, not after thetime.
So I think it's very important,even today, to be on time.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Absolutely, I love it .
Again, it's simple things.
It always reminds me of, youknow, the speech that Admiral
McRaven gave too, talking aboutthe importance of making your
bed right.
These like simple actions,right, but it shows at a greater
level.
Right, the making your bed isjust the accomplishing of a
simple task, but for you, inthis, being on time, right, it's
again to show up on time.
(14:54):
It seems like such a littlething but, like you're saying,
it requires proper planning, itrequires proper execution to
make sure that you'recoordinating all the details to
be there on time.
You're taking care of yourselfand, again, you're adding in
buffers for things that couldhappen right.
Again, it shows if you're aperson who is consistently
punctual, consistently on time.
(15:15):
It means you're well thoughtout and you take action.
Right, you take action.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Dependable, credible.
And let me tell you something,going back to being an aide in
Js, we'll appreciate this.
I mean, anytime we wentsomewhere, I did advanced
planning and back then we didn'thave Waze, we didn't have apps,
we didn't have Google Maps.
I mean, I had an old map with ahighlighter and if we had to be
somewhere at six o'clock in themorning the night before, I
would drive the route and Iwould know exactly how long it
(15:39):
took us to get there, because Icouldn't get to a road that was
closed and look at the album andsay we're going to be late, you
know because?
But I think it's.
I think those are just greatexamples of the fabric of
leadership.
I think that's just one of them.
And I will say Abel McRaven'sbooks are wonderful.
I've read all of them and thebiggest compliment I got on my
book recently as I showedsomebody the cover at Barnes and
(16:00):
Noble I was pitching for them,for for them for what was going
to be an upcoming book signingthere, and they said, oh, I love
the cover, it looks likeAdmiral McRaven's books.
I said that's exactly what.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
I was trying to do.
Keep that going, baby.
I love it.
One of my favorite stories thatyou tell in this book is you're
sitting in your barber chairAgain, just a normal person
sitting in their barber chair,talking, talking with their
barber and you mention and youtell the stories of the
admiral's weekend plans, andthen you have a future
(16:30):
conversation with the admiraland he he brings it up that the
fact that you were talking abouthim ended up back to him and
it's a good thing.
It was a positive story.
It's not like you were talkingbad about him, but even the fact
that, like he was discussed,made its way back to him, and so
I want to put it over to you.
Can you highlight theimportance of why words matter
(16:55):
and how small the Navy is and,again, the importance of being
really intentional with yourwords and what you say?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Absolutely, and that's just another great
example of you know why wordsmatter.
What I learned as a JO isincredibly important.
You know, as a lawyer, it's the.
It's the same thing.
That was just a simple episode.
You know, when I started thejob and this is chapter maybe
one, I call it the initialguidance he told me you know,
what I do on my time is mybusiness, it's the business of a
(17:22):
Navy Admiral, nobody else'sbusiness.
So I'm just sitting in thatbarber chair one Saturday, you
know, getting squared away to goon a trip, getting like you
always had to have a haircut.
You know regulation as anAdmiral's aide.
You got to be squared away asthe Admiral's aide because you
are the best of the best.
And I just mentioned, yeah, Iwas going to go over to the
Admiral's house Saturday nightto, you know, to do this, that
and the other, no big deal, justwhat I call in the book
(17:43):
scuttlebutt.
Right, it's a?
Well, look that up, it's awonderful, maybe term for what
you shouldn't be doing gossiping.
And then I get in the car withthe Admiral Monday morning and
he says I see you got yourhaircut.
I'm like going yeah, okay, hesaw, I got my haircut.
And then he says Jack's a goodbarber, isn't he?
(18:04):
And what does Jack do?
Jack did what all barbers doesdo.
He said I heard you hadsomething at your house last
night and the admiral's thinking.
Who in the world told him that?
Well, there was only one person.
He's smart.
He connected the dots and againto his leadership style.
All he said was don't let thathappen again.
And I said yes, sir, it willnot.
I say that a couple of times inthe book.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yes, sir it will not Absolutely.
Again, that one's, that one's.
It's a funny story, right, andit's a.
It's a good lesson to learn,without really severe
consequences, because it I'msure a lot of people have
experienced that with a moreunfortunate choice of
storytelling.
Right, and you know, it's a, a.
It's an interesting piece tothink about.
But again, when we talk aboutall these leadership aspects and
(18:48):
trying to it was something youmentioned earlier too as well
about, you know, not almostabusing the power of being an
aid to burn bridges, right Again, relationships matter, right
Relationships matter, and youneed to be really, again,
strategic and tactical with yourwords as well as you're doing
these things to make sure thatyou're never putting anyone in a
in a bad spot.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, yeah, and that's true for good or bad
leaders.
You know, I've had, I've gotthree daughters and a couple of
times one of them has said to meyou know it's, we're not
talking about fair, we'retalking about success and
relationships.
And how do you navigate that asa young leader who aspires to
be a better leader?
Speaker 1 (19:31):
One of your next lessons I think resonates so
much with midshipmen andsomething I talk about a lot on
this platform, and it's aboutasking for help when you need it
.
I feel like many timesmidshipmen and young JLs have a
hard time with this.
Right, they have such a highindividual success rate.
Right, they're high individualperformers.
Absolutely, they can do anythingon their own, and a lot of
(19:53):
times kind of become ashamedwhen they can't Right, and so my
question to you again is howdid you learn this lesson, and
why is it so important to beable to ask for help?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, you know, I learned it on another one.
You read in the book I'm takingthe animal to a war room of a
destroyer, a small ship, and Iround the corner because I think
I know the route and the routeis blocked by a sailor who's
buffing the deck and it'scrisscrossed off with tape and
he's not going to let us by.
So I looked at my watch.
I'm like, okay, I got 10minutes to get there.
What am I going to do?
Well, I'm going to ask for help.
And that's just a small exampleof what you're talking about.
(20:33):
But it does take a lot ofswallow and humble pride to ask
for help.
But what I've learned is it'samazing, amazing.
The people who will help you,who will wrap their arms around
you and say, okay, I got it,I've been there, I'll take care
of you.
And I learned that also in mylegal career when I was once,
you know, I filed a pleadinglate.
I was in default.
(20:54):
I didn't know what to do.
I mean, it's potentially legalmalpractice to do that.
I was at a big law firm.
I didn't want to admit it.
I slept two or three nightsworrying about it and then I
went down the hall and asked apartner hey, I need your help.
And he took care of me.
So I think for midshipmen andfor people who aspire to lead,
always ask for help, becausethings that are bad don't get
(21:14):
better over time.
Just get the help that you needand people will be glad to help
you.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I wholeheartedly agree, especially the fact that
people will be there to help you, especially in the Navy and
especially at the Naval Academy.
I think this piece is reallyinteresting.
It's actually a conversation Ihad with Chowda, and so if you
haven't listened to the podcastepisode with Chowda, I highly
recommend you go check it out,because it's awesome and he's
such a great personality.
He's the CEO of the USSEisenhower and he kind of shares
(21:40):
his reflections on leadershipand deployment.
He kind of shares hisreflections on leadership and
deployment, but he kind ofalways talks about the fact that
, like hey, I truly believe,even if people don't articulate
it, the reason people join theNavy is somewhere deep down
inside of them.
They have this desire to serveright, the desire to help people
.
(22:01):
Whether or not, again it's atthe forefront of their mind of
why they're doing it.
Like people are called and havea, you know, an attraction to
the service, because of thatdesire to be a part of something
bigger than themselves, in anorganization that, like, helps
each other Right.
And so in this, in thisorganization just doubling down
on what you said again if youhave the humility, the ability
to swallow again your pride andask for help and be genuine
(22:22):
about it, like there were goingto be a lot of people who are
going to be willing to help you,and they're going to be a lot
of people, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
I've never had anybody look at me and say I'm
not going to help you.
You're on your own.
I mean never.
And and the key with asking forhelp is sometimes you're at
that turning point in your roadwhere you're either going to go
bad or get help and go good.
And it's wonderful to go theother way Go good, without a
doubt.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
When you show up, you turn the corner and that P-way
is blocked off.
I'm sure you get a littlefeeling of panic in there, a
little feeling of like, oh snap,what do I do now?
One of your next lessons thatyou talk about in this book is
about the fact that you can'tpanic under pressure.
I know you personally didn't goto the Naval Academy where I
(23:12):
think for a lot of peoplelistening, plebe summer is
really our first training intothis idea of not panicking under
pressure, because you live anentire summer constantly under
pressure.
Yep, do you have anyexperiences similar to this that
set the foundation for you inthat way?
What lessons did you learnalong the way that helped you
again not panic under pressure?
Why do you think this is soimportant, again, for young
(23:33):
aspiring leaders?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, listen, I was not fortunate enough to go to
the academy but I tell you twoof my best friends did.
I've heard all stories and somany of my shipmates in the Navy
have told me those stories andI just enjoy them.
Td Smyers was class of 84,retired as a Navy captain, ran
track at the Academy and had arecord there that held for 18
years.
Another friend of mine, daveFlieger, best friend from high
(23:57):
school, went to the Academy.
Eyesight went bad, got a crosscommission into the Air Force
and ended up flying B-52s out ofMinot, north Dakota.
That was his punishment forgoing into the Air Force, but
he's now a lawyer.
But back to the point, both ofthem are great Academy graduates
who have told me about thestories within the walls of
Bancroft Hall and on thatbeautiful campus and sure look
(24:19):
as a midshipman.
In Chapel Hill I rememberstanding on the AstroTurf field
with the gunnery sergeantyelling and screaming hotter
than blazes.
Nothing compared to being atthe academy.
But in my own little microcosmof being in a uniform at a
liberal arts school at ChapelHill, still having people look
(24:40):
at you, and this guy picked meout, gunny Klonowski.
He picked me out to yell at meconstantly and I was like Gunny,
why are you yelling at me allthe time?
I didn't get it and I called mydad.
I said, dad, I think I'm goingto quit.
I mean, I didn't come here toput up with this BS because if
I'd wanted to do this, I wouldhave gone to the Civil War, I
would have gone to the Academy,right, I don't want this.
And Dad said, stick in there,right?
And the funny thing is thatGunny called me into his office
(25:00):
that Thursday or Friday to yellat me.
He made me stand at parade,rest and watch motivational
films of the Marines attackingIwo Jima, and then he'd asked me
if I'd come to my senses yet,because he had a red name tag on
his desk that had my last nameon it.
You know what that means, grant.
As a midshipman, if you've gota red name tag, you're a Marine
option.
And I said, gunny, I said whyare you picking on me?
And he said who do you want meto pick on?
(25:20):
I said, how about my buddy,johnny Hearn?
He's right, you know he's.
The next day, me and Johnnywere standing side by side
getting yelled out by the gunny.
And what a wonderful time.
And there were clearly times asan aide and I talk about one of
them in the book when I evengot the car stuck with the
admiral in it.
I mean there's plenty ofopportunity to panic when that
(25:41):
happens for him or for me, butyou just can't do that.
You know you've got to channelthat energy into something
positive.
And how do I get out of thissituation?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
And, like I was saying, repetition is really
important in that field, right,because those are real human
emotion, right, like thephysiological response to panic
is something you have to getused to.
Right and being able to stillhave logic prevail and be a
thinker in that state of kind offight or flight, right, very
(26:11):
difficult, especially as a JOright Very difficult.
Absolutely so.
Again, it's something that youcontinue to grow and learn on.
But, again, that's why theseexperiences are so important,
because it's one more repetitionright, it's another repetition
of overcoming failure, of facingadversity, of navigating and
handling those situations ofhigh stress, high pressure
(26:31):
moments, right when panic can.
Again, like you were sayingearlier, again you can go two
paths right when you're put inthis situation, and you know for
young leaders to haverepetitions of that.
So that way again, because yourpanic situations as a J-O are
going to be very different thanyour panic situations as a
commanding officer or as the CEOof a company right.
(26:53):
Like those, panic situations area little higher stakes.
So again it comes down tomaking sure you have the
repetitions to be able to belogically inclined in those
moments.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Yeah, take a deep breath, right, and I learned
this just in the past 10 or 15years.
Don't let the amygdala hijack,take over.
Just a couple of seconds, takea breath, figure out the path to
success rather than panicking.
And then the other thing thatwe talk about a lot and I know
this is huge at the Academy andas a JO it's just the teamwork,
right.
Nobody wants to be in the room,or on the p3 or in the f18
(27:26):
two-seater, that is, or on thedeck the quarter deck of someone
who's freaking out andpanicking.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
You know that's not a good trait of a leadership, of
a leader and I want to followthat path, actually, because one
of your next lessons isactually all about being a great
team player, which is somethingI talk about constantly as well
, but do you mind sharing withus, in your opinion, what being
a great team player means to youand the impact it can have on
an organization when you'refilled with people who are great
(27:51):
team players?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, the organization can go so much
further.
And, grant, you recognize thisbecause of your time doing
collegiate sports.
I didn't do sports, but Ifigured it out pretty quickly in
the corporate world and I didin the Navy too.
Right, everybody wants to workwith a team player, somebody who
helps others along the way.
And the neat thing is, if youhelp others build that team, you
(28:15):
go a lot further and they'regoing to help you right, if you
each want the other to succeed,it's just wonderful and the team
as a unit moves so much further.
The morale is so much better.
Right, everybody enjoys work.
You enjoy each other, not onlyat work, but socially.
You enjoy being with otherpeople.
So I think that's just a hugething of a leader, because when
(28:39):
you're looking around the room,the person that's a team player
is the one you want to be theteam leader ultimately.
The captain, right?
The captain of the basketballteam 100%, right, 100%.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
And again, I think that's something that's critical
.
Right, is being a great teamplayer and it's something that's
funny because I watch as anynormal weird person would do
watch Simon S sinek video,youtube videos in my free time,
just talking about life andleadership.
Right, and you know, one of hisconversations is is all about
that organization and people whoare great team players and have
(29:11):
the trust of an organizationand they're like, hey, when you
walk into any organization,right, if you were to ask like
hey, who's who's the best teamplayer?
Right, who's like everyone,immediately is right and be like
it's that person?
Right, and at the same time,and you're like who, who?
I never cuss on this on thisshow but like who's the asshole?
Right, like who's who's thejerk?
(29:33):
Everyone also is going to belike unanimous, right, unanimous
so, but but again, it's reallyimportant because of that to be
a great team player.
Again, these are the separatorsand these are conscious actions
.
Right, it's not just 100%personality based.
These are things that you cancontrol, right, and so it's just
(29:54):
so important to take advantageof those and you talk about and
it goes back to even theconversations and the
scuttlebutt and all thesedifferent things is your
reputation matters and the Navyis really small, right?
And if you are known as someonewho's a great team player,
right, that that is just goingto garner so much support for
you as you go through theprocess as well, like they're
(30:15):
going to be people who are goingto want to take care of you,
because they know that you'regoing to do the same, right?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
absolutely.
I think you hit on something.
Everybody thinks the Navy is sobig, but we both know that once
you figure out what yourwarfare specialty is going to be
, and wherever you go, you'regoing to see the same people and
those people are going to go tosome other ship and then a year
or two later they're eithergoing to be ahead of you or next
to you or below you and they'regoing to remember you and it's
(30:41):
the same.
You know.
I remember.
You know, when I was trying tofigure out whether to transfer
into the reserves, you know Iwas complaining to my sister
about you know.
Well, I'm seeing this and I'mseeing that in the Navy and I
love the Navy, like you, but Ijust don't know if I want to be
doing this.
And my daughter I'm sorry, mysister, who was working for Bank
of America at the time, sayswhat makes you think that's any
different in the corporate world?
(31:02):
It's the same thing, the sameprecepts, which is something I
say through the book.
And you know your basketballcareer.
You'll notice in the book,under the team player section,
there's one heading that sayspoint to the assist.
And if you know basketball, Iwent to Chapel Hill.
I was there when Michael Jordanwas there, I saw it.
But what did Dean Smith teachhis players when they scored off
(31:26):
an assist?
They always point to the assist.
That is a team player, and Idon't say that in the book, but
the heading is there just forthat reason.
How cool is it to acknowledgeyour success based on what
somebody else has done for you?
That's a team player.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
A team player.
I love it and I'm glad youbrought that up, because even
today, I'm so glad that thatteaching made its way into
basketball.
Like that's so commonplace now.
Right, it's like anytime youscore right, like it's like it's
a point and it'sacknowledgement to the guy who
assisted, assisted you right,and say hey, like, thank you,
right, like that happenedbecause of you, right,
(31:58):
absolutely, which is which isreally cool.
And obviously I love basketballreferences.
I'm a basketball fan.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I love Carolinabasketball.
Well, that's the other thing.
The pointing to the assist isexactly what we're talking about
.
I mentioned this.
In it Somebody would say, oh,mark did a great job.
Well, guess what?
The week later I'd be in ameeting and say, oh, that person
did a great job.
And it just fuels friendshipand morale and the teamness of
getting things done.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Absolutely Shifting to some of the last couple
lessons that you have in thebook and there are plenty more
in the book than what we'vetouched on.
I've kind of just highlightedsome of the ones that resonated
most with me and were mostinteresting to bring up in this
format, and I'm especiallyexcited to talk about this one
because it's something that'sreally interesting.
I've actually talked about theidea of loyalty before and
(32:42):
integrity, and I kind of have ahot take Sometimes I get a bad
taste of in my mouth with theword loyalty, because it feels
to me like it's this idea oflike blind loyalty to a person
versus like we're saying theintegrity to ideals and if we
both have integrity to somethingright, like then we're going to
be operating in the same way.
But do you mind talking abouthow those two ideas of loyalty
(33:05):
and integrity in your mind, howthey integrate together right,
and so I'd love to hear yourthoughts on it and why you think
it's so important again in thedevelopment of a young leader.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, that's.
That's.
That's great because it is astruggle, right.
There's this push pull andsomeone might criticize a junior
officer.
Well, you're too loyal toso-and-so, you're too loyal to
that person.
And I say, in the military andin the civilian world, you
should be loyal to your employerand you should be loyal to your
boss.
I mean, that's part of theconfidential and trusting
relationship that the boss orthe company has with you.
(33:38):
And if you get to the pointthat you can't do that, it's
time to go.
Go somewhere else, do somethingelse.
But I know this very wellbecause, reading the audio book,
this sentence stuck out with meis integrity always trumps
loyalty, right.
(33:58):
And the same LieutenantCommander who became an Admiral
Jag is in the book and I don'tthink he minds me mentioning his
name Lieutenant Commander HankMalenango.
At the time, admiral Malenango,he told me I let him read the
manuscript and he says you knowwhat, in that section I think
you missed the mark.
You've got to strengthen theintegrity component.
Because he knew that's what Iwas trying to say.
You don't blindly followsomebody who's leading you down
a path that's doing somethingillegal or immoral but at the
(34:21):
same time, if it's just theirjudgment, you might not
necessarily agree with it, youshould be loyal to them and
carry out the plan of the day,as we say, right.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Absolutely Right and it's it's a, it is right, it's
really important and requires alittle bit of subjectivity as
well, of like, again, whatthings do you just not agree
with versus what things arequite literally like wrong,
right, from a, from a moralitystandpoint, from an integrity
standpoint, right, and thosewere the.
You know, those things comeabout and I agree, right, like
they're going to be.
(34:49):
Plenty of times, you know, wetalk about case studies at the,
at the Naval Academy, pleadleadership in your classes.
Right, they're going to comeand talk about gaming the XO.
Right Like.
A lot of times you can just notagree with XO and just blame
him.
Right, it's like, oh no, the XOtold us to do this.
I don't agree with it.
Right, like that, you ain'tbeing loyal to the command there
.
Right, like that's a, that's abad spot.
(35:11):
And again, now, if the XO istelling you to do in more like
wrong things, right, that'sagain, that's where the
integrity piece comes in.
But I really like how you framethat Because, again, I do think
, in the right context, boththings are so tremendously
important and I love that.
You highlighted again that atevery moment in time, integrity
will trump loyalty.
(35:32):
Right Like, integrity is.
That is that core again theadherence to the core values.
It's aligning your actions toyour values consistently, day in
and day out, and so I love thatchapter.
I thought it was a really areally cool in-depth discussion
about those two topics, right,and what those two words mean.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yeah, yeah, it kills me when I see phenomenal
officers and we see them all thetime Grant, we see Academy guys
, ROTC guys, OCS folks who makeit to the top and for whatever
reason they strayed in somehownot loyalty or integrity, but
straight up dishonesty has creptin and ruins just a phenomenal
career.
(36:09):
And I I scratched my head.
And then you talk about casestudies.
You know, when I was in, theonly thing I want I wanted to do
two things as a squadron CO, Iwanted to make sure I got
through the command withoutanybody getting to the best of
my ability, without anybodybeing injured or killed.
So make sound decisions inflying those planes and sending
them places.
But, more importantly for mepersonally, professionally,
(36:30):
never be on the front page ofNavy Times for an issue that I
would be embarrassed aboutMaking, an immoral or a decision
that you know you stray fromintegrity.
And how do people get?
There is always a headscratcher to me.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
I agree.
We're going to flip the topicback to positive here to end it
up, which I love, which is againyou ended the book on probably
my favorite thing, and againit's something that Chowda talks
about a lot.
It's something that CaptainJervie talks about a lot In an
episode I talked with him whichis this idea of always taking
care of your people, and there'sanother chapter that you have
(37:04):
in there which is about sayingthank you and being grateful,
and so there's a line in hereand it's something you mentioned
earlier in the episode.
I heard it earlier in theepisode which I loved is you
said there are a couple of timeswhere the Admiral could have
fired me, but instead he helpedme, right, and so can you talk
(37:25):
about the importance of thisidea of taking care of your
people and what that reallymeans and where this idea of
constantly saying thank you andbeing grateful like plays into
that?
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, so you know the taking care of your people.
You know the book is aboutlessons from the Admiral and
I've written another articleabout.
You know what I learned fromthe judge also another mentor in
my life but the key person whoI learned from first was my dad.
My dad was a Navy captain and Iknow the folks that have
students at the Academy now whoare military or who also come
(37:52):
from military families know thisand I know a JO knows this.
But my dad told me when I wascommissioned and dad
commissioned me at the Old Well,the University of North
Carolina, chapel Hill, 1985, onMother's Day, I remember it as
clear as day and he gave me asword, a sword that he had worn,
and he said to me he said, mark, listen to your chiefs and take
care of your sailors.
(38:12):
That's all he told me.
He didn't tell me anything elseabout being in the Navy.
He said listen to your chiefs.
He didn't say be on time.
Loyalty, integrity.
He just told me those twothings and he said if you do
those two things, you're goingto do just fine.
And wow, that is exactly what Idid.
And how many times did a chiefsave my tail right Because he
(38:34):
liked me and because I wasn't ajerk and because I wasn't a one
way, because I knew that as ayoung Lieutenant or JG or ensign
, I didn't know more than thechief and I needed the chief to
help educate me and I knowChowda mentioned that too.
I mean, that's a hugephilosophy that you better
understand, and it's the samething in the civilian world.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
It goes back to exactly what we were talking
about earlier you have to beable to ask for help, right.
What we were talking aboutearlier is you have to be able
to ask for help right, and ifyou can go and have the humility
to go to that relationship withthe chief and be like we are a
team, we are a partnership andI'm like I need your help, like
there's so much stuff I don'tknow right, like I want to be a
resource for you as well, I wantto be an advocate in the
(39:13):
wardroom, I want to be able to,like again, help run this
division, but also like there'sa lot that I that I need from
you, and like even justdiscovering life as a junior
officer.
I think this is somethingthat's really interesting.
I had a conversation with thisguy, anthony Amato, who was the
command master chief of the USSJohn Warner when I was deploying
and you know now he's over atsquadron one as the squadron CMC
(39:37):
and he's just like dynamics andmultiple relationships between
a JO and a chief, and you knowhis thing was just 100 percent.
Again, what it comes down to ishe's like I want to see you
succeed, I want to help you, butyou need to be open to it.
Right, like this is a two waystreet where we have to work
together.
And like I will, I will teachyou.
(39:59):
And it's so funny because,again, his thing is really
interesting, because it kind ofcatches people by ear when he
says it.
He's like we need to treatjunior officers like junior
sailors from a personal aspect,because it's a 22-year-old
person who's never been on aship before and they're walking
around with no idea what's goingon.
They've never received an LES,they've never had something go
(40:21):
wrong with their pay, they'venever dealt with a rental lease
agreement or purchasing a home.
Like there's so many thingsabout life that they've never
experienced that like a chief isgoing to have to help them with
.
Right, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Chief, I don't know what I'm doing here and they'll
do that.
And the neat thing about whatwe call the goat locker in the
Navy.
The neat thing about the chiefsall the way up to the master
(40:56):
chiefs, because when I was acommand CO in your ear, if they
like you and you've been good tothem, hey, skipper, you might
want to think about this.
Hey, lt, you know they don'tcall you Lieutenant.
Hey, lt, you know, next timeyou're standing watch you might
want to do this.
And when I was a midshipman Imentioned this in the book.
You know, on a midshipman cruise, with some academy folks
(41:22):
falling asleep up at the doingthe watch, at you know, zero
three hundred, a chiefquartermaster comes over.
He says, hey, midshipman, drinkthis.
And it's a cup of coffee.
And I've been drinking coffeeever since.
But he knew that I was gettingready to get in trouble because
here I am, you're not supposedto fall asleep on the watch, be
it at the academy or as a jailor as a midshipman.
And the chief saw me and savedmy tail by giving me a cup of
coffee.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
And you will never find more people falling asleep,
standing up, than you do in themilitary.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
It's wildly impressive, or sleeping anywhere
.
I mean I can sleep.
People are like how can youfall asleep there?
I say, look, I can fall asleepanywhere.
Any kind of noise you knowanywhere, based on my time in
the Navy.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
All right, well, mark , thank you so much for taking
the time to share your insightabout this book.
One last thing before we getready to wrap up here, which
would be what's your bestrecruiting pitch for why young
men and women should consider anaval education and career in
the military, and what theselessons meant to you and why
other people should pursue thispath.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah, I tell people this all the time and you hit on
it earlier, grant there's nobetter feeling than service.
Right, you might not be thehighest paid, you might work
longer hours than anybody else,but there's no better feeling
than serving your country orserving others.
So that's sort of theintangible but very prideful
(42:39):
component.
You know, there's that greatquote at the Navy Memorial where
you know you think about allthe great things you've done in
your life.
The greatest thing I did was Idon't remember exactly but I
think it was Kennedy said.
You know, I served the UnitedStates Navy and then,
secondarily and more practicallyspeaking, there's no better way
to start, right, you want to goall the old slogan, join the
(42:59):
Navy and see the world stilltrue today.
The experiences, the leadership, what you get handed to you so
quickly, so fast, the people.
I have yet to find thatcamaraderie in anywhere, in law
firms and major corporationsanywhere else.
You cannot replicate it.
Be it you do six or seven years, like me and you, and then
transfer to the civilian world.
There's no better place tostart than, I would say, the
(43:22):
Navy.
I guess I could broaden it tosay the Armed Forces, but we're
going to stick on this podcastto the Navy.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
And that's what I'm going to do?
Absolutely no, I love every bitof that.
I'm going to take 30 secondsjust to highlight that again.
Which the service to others, tome especially, is such a unique
, wildly cool piece right.
Service to nation 100%.
That's what you're going to bedoing, the mission of your unit,
et cetera.
But there is no betteropportunity to make a positive
(43:50):
impact in people's lives thanbeing a military junior officer.
Right the day you graduate as a22-year-old or 23-year year old
, there are going to be 10 to 15people who are looking at you
for you to help them and you aregoing to have the rank and
authority and ability, if youchoose, to invest in those
relationships, to genuinely makea positive impact in those
(44:11):
people's lives.
At what point do you get to dothat as a 22 or 23 year old
elsewhere?
Really, like you, you don'tright, you don't?
You know.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
I can't think of one one one civilian job that allows
you that much responsibility toimpact people's lives, like you
said, and then to feel really,really good about it.
Right, it's just a wonderfulfeeling.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
There's a real sense of fulfillment, so it's
beautiful.
Well, mark, thank you so muchagain for taking the time today.
I'll turn it over to you If youhave any last words or thoughts
that you want to leave with theaudience.
Otherwise, thank you so muchfor being here and sharing your
insight and wisdom.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
No, listen.
I'll just close by saying thankyou to the midshipmen and to
the parents who are listening,because you really have taken
the call for service and it'svolunteer service right.
No one told you to do it,you're just doing it on your own
and really appreciate Grant theopportunity of being on this
podcast.
I can't wait to hear it andthank you again for having me
Really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
And again, for anyone who islistening or watching here,
lessons from the Admiral, itcomes out Tuesday, january 28th,
so if you want to order a copy,make sure to do that.
Again, mark, thank you so muchfor being on here and sharing
your wisdom and insight with acouple of C stories.
The best way to do it.
It's the best way to do it,absolutely.
So appreciate it.
(45:24):
Thank you all so much.
It's the Academy Insideraudience.
Please reach out if you haveany questions.
It's always a pleasure and Ilook forward to helping you,
however I can.
So feel free to reach out,thank you.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode of the Academy
Insider Podcast.
I really hope you liked it,enjoyed it and learned something
during this time.
If you did, please feel free tolike and subscribe or leave a
(45:45):
comment about the episode.
We really appreciate to hearyour feedback about everything
and continue to make AcademyInsider an amazing service that
guides, serves and supportsmidshipmen, future midshipmen
and their families.
Thank you.
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