August 10, 2025 • 45 mins
The United States Naval Academy's crucible experience has evolved significantly over the years, adapting to new generations while maintaining its core purpose. In this episode, I sit down with Admiral Jim McNeal, author of the new book "Crucibles," to explore how the Academy's transformative journey shapes future naval leaders.
We delve into the essence of what makes a crucible experience effective and how the Naval Academy has refined its approach. Admiral McNeal shares personal insights from his plebe year, offering a unique perspective on the changes and constants in the Academy's methods.
Key Insights from Our Conversation:
- The shift from attrition-focused to development-centered training
- How daily challenges at the Academy build resilience and leadership skills
- The importance of failure as a learning tool in a low-risk environment
- Why seemingly mundane tasks like chow calls and formations are crucial for future officers
- The enduring value of the Naval Academy experience in creating lifelong bonds
Admiral McNeal emphasizes that while tactics may change, the core mission remains: preparing officers who can lead under pressure and prioritize their team's well-being.
For Plebes and Their Families
As Plebe Parents Weekend approaches, Admiral McNeil offers words of encouragement:
"To the plebes: There is a method to the madness. Embrace the challenge, knowing that countless others would trade places with you. To the parents: Support your midshipmen, allow them to vent, but trust the process."
This episode provides valuable insights for current and future midshipmen, their families, and anyone interested in understanding the unique crucible that shapes America's naval leaders.
Buy Admiral McNeal's book here: https://www.amazon.com/Crucibles-Formidable-Passage-Worlds-Organizations/dp/1572843527
The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families.
Grant Vermeer your host is the person who started it all. He is the founder of Academy Insider and the host of The Academy Insider podcast. He was a recruited athlete which brought him to Annapolis where he was a four year member of the varsity basketball team. He was a cyber operations major and commissioned into the Cryptologic Warfare Community. He was stationed at Fort Meade and supported the Subsurface Direct Support mission.
He separated from the Navy in 2023 and now owns The Vermeer Group, a residential real estate company that specializes in serving the United States Naval Academy community with nationwide consulting and connection.
We are here to be your guide through the USNA experience.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone and welcome back to the Academy
Insider Podcast.
In this episode I have a guestreturn.
He's been on the podcast acouple of times Admiral Jim
McNeil.
He just published a brand newbook called Crucibles, which is
an interesting perspective andresearch and thought book about
elite organizations and kind ofthe rites of passage and
indoctrination phases for thoseorganizations.
(00:21):
They talk about the NASAprogram, they talk about the
Marine Corps, they talk aboutmonks and different
organizations, even the mob, totalk about kind of how elite-run
organizations have utilizedcrucibles in order to get people
to go from zero to one intotheir organization, and so I
love this.
It's super exciting.
The book is actually framedaround his police summer
experience and how the NavalAcademy is continuing to run
(00:44):
this crucible in the preparationof Navy and Marine Corps
officers.
I'm so excited You're going tolove this episode.
Check it out and let me knowwhat you think.
Thanks so much and enjoy thelisten.
Hi everyone and welcome back tothe Academy Insider Podcast.
I'm McNeil my guy.
Welcome back.
(01:04):
Thank you.
Insider Podcast.
I'm with McNeil my guy.
Welcome back.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
For anyone who hasn't beenlistening to the podcast or
heard one of your many visits onthe podcast before, do you mind
just doing a quick introductionof yourself so that people know
who you are and what you'recurrently doing at the Academy?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, grant, thanks so much for having me on and I'm
a 1986 grad supply corpsofficer, was in the reserves for
25 years.
After my six years of activeduty, seven command tours, three
XO tours, a couple ofdeployments to the Middle East.
In conjunction with that, I hada civilian job.
(01:42):
I was an owner of a businessexecutive search business.
I retired in 2017.
My wife, who's also a classmate, got her PhD.
She's a professor at TowsonUniversity in Baltimore, so we
moved back here in 2018.
Teaching NE203, ethical andmoral reasoning for the naval
(02:03):
leader since 2020, and mentorlots of mids.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Lots of mids.
That's the understatement ofthe century.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Yeah lots of mids and so, just by virtue of being
there every day and hearingthings, I'm probably more in
tune with what's going on at theacademy than most people, than
most.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah, absolutely, and you use that to even author
books as well, and this is whatwe're again so excited to do it.
You're on your third book.
You had one about Herndon Klein, another about leadership
development and this third andmost recent, an incredible book
here called Crucibles.
And so really the firstquestion, just to start us off,
is what was the interest,motivation, what caused you to
(02:45):
actually do the research intomany historical elite,
performing organizations, towrite this book?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So our thanks for the shout out on our first two
books, the Herndon Climb andSide by Side.
So for the Herndon Climb, thatwas published by the Naval
Institute Press and we were, Iwas with another author, we did
a author meet and greet, kind ofquestion and answer session at
(03:14):
the Naval Institute Pressbuilding in Hospital Point, and
so they said, hey, find us amoderator and you know, have
them ask you questions and we'llinvite people, et cetera, et
cetera, you know kind ofpublicity tour.
So I was, I was really reallysmart, I handpicked the
moderator I took, I said, okay,give me the questions in advance
.
And so when he asked me thequestions during this event, he,
(03:36):
I, I seemed incredibly eloquentand and had great answers to
all of his questions.
And I was cruising along andthen at the end last thing he
said was unscripted hey, what'syour next project?
And all of his questions.
And I was cruising along andthen at the end last thing he
said was unscripted, hey, what'syour next project?
And all of a sudden I was butand so I kind of bumbled and
stumbled my way and I just offthe off the cuff, said, well, I
(03:56):
think it'd be really cool to doa book about the the history of
of plea beer at the navalacademy.
And he said, okay, well, that'sgreat.
And then we kind of ended itthere and I just kind of tucked
that away.
So my writing partner, ericSmith, and I, when we got done
with Side by Side, we had turnedthat into the publisher we
started talking about differentpotential projects and I said,
(04:18):
hey, why don't we?
You know, I mentioned this atthis author event, what do you
think about that?
And he said, well, why don't we?
You know, I'm not sure that wecould frame an entire book on
that.
And then the other little piecethat I had was a tidbit of
information is there's a classat the Academy called Code of
the Warrior and it's all.
(04:40):
And I don't know if you tookthat there or heard of that
class, but you study differentorganizations and the reason I
know about that class is becausethey have posters that are all
over Luce Hall, which is theprofessional development
building.
They're in the stairwells.
Every time you walk up thestairs you see them.
I said, hey, let me call youback.
I took pictures of all of thesedifferent posters.
(05:01):
I said, what if we did a bookframed with our Plebe experience
.
So maybe the prologue was PlebeSummer, the epilogue was Plebe
Year, and then we looked atthese various organizations that
took kind of normal people,everyday people, and made them
elite and what are?
(05:21):
some of the lessons that wecould learn from that, and so
that's what we ended up doingthe introduction.
I interviewed dr marcus hedol,who was one of the philosophy
teachers at the naval academy,and he did a really great job of
kind of framing it, and then wejust picked different
organizations.
We probably had 25 that wesubmitted or that was on our in
(05:43):
our proposal that we were goingto look at and we settled on the
ones that ended up in the bookand we had some really, really
great interviews also, and thatthat's, I think, what really
made it fun.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, no, it's so cool.
And again, if it spans so manydifferent organizations, time
periods, et cetera, lots ofdifferent thought into this book
, which is incredible.
But, like you mentioned, youuse your own plebe experience as
the framing for this entirebook and so for our Academy
audience, you mind walking usthrough in reflection what made
your plebe year such a defining,crucible experience for you,
(06:17):
and how do you recognize it now,the way that it was
transforming you back then thatyou might have not even
understood.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah, great, great question.
So I had a little bit of anadvantage because I ended up
having to go to the NavalAcademy Prep School, which was
fantastic for me.
I was only 17 when I graduatedhigh school, so it was kind of a
great you know, redshirt yearthat I could do.
So when I got to the NavalAcademy for Plebe Summer and the
Napsters come in a day earlyand we started, it wasn't that
(06:52):
big of a deal to me.
I knew how to march, I knew howto wear a uniform, I had a
haircut.
I always was blessed with areally good memory.
So really, plebe Summer wasn'tvery difficult.
And the thing about plebesummer was the ratio really
worked in your favor because youhad a squad of, say, 12 plebes
(07:13):
and you had a squad leader, andthen there were other some other
assorted detailers, butprobably the ratio was five or
six to one, so five or sixplebes to one upper class and
typically, like I said, I had agood memory.
I was always very good at ratesand could always regurgitate
what I needed to on command, andso during Plead Summer if you
(07:35):
were able to get your answersout, they would usually leave
you alone.
So I had a pretty good themeals would be, they'd ask you a
reign If you got it.
You got to pretty much eat.
So plead summer in that sensewas, was, was fairly easy.
Then the academic year startedand the ratio flipped.
And you know, I think one ofthe big, you know the old days
(07:59):
it used to be the mission wasattrition.
In the old days the navalacademy and this is just my
opinion, this is not officialnaval academy pao stuff, but
this is my observation the navalacademies in my day said hey,
here's somebody on paper wholooks really really good.
They seem to have what it takesmorally, mentally, physically
(08:22):
to be successful.
Uh, so we're going to give thema shot.
But they're going to put themthrough this crucible.
And if they make it great, andif they don't, that's fine too.
And so during Cleve Summer therewere classmates of mine that
struggled.
And if you struggled CleveSummer, the class of 83, our
favorites, our firsties they ranpeople out, they ran people out
(08:47):
of there.
And so once the academic yearstarted it was really really
tough.
The meals were the worst time.
The meals were.
You had to serve the upperclass all of their drinks, their
meals, all in the meantimeanswering rates and so your
(09:10):
entire and lunch and dinner weremandatory.
So lunch and dinner you prettymuch didn't eat and you were
serving the upper class andanswering rates and if you were
lucky the upper class wouldleave and you would get a chance
to maybe get something to eat.
But you had to go, you couldn'tleave early and it was just
(09:31):
every single day, twice a day,just getting beat on and beat on
, and beat on.
And it was and they didn't, andin the class of 83, maybe
somebody that listens to listenare going to be listening to
this, maybe somebody that'sgoing to be listening to this?
They took particular delight inperforming that mission, and at
least the ones in my company.
(09:51):
They just didn't like us.
There's no other way to put it.
And so they didn't let up at alland I can remember when we went
into exams second semester thebrigade commander was a football
player.
He gave us carry-on.
Basically we could eat normallyat meals.
(10:13):
Carry-on means we didn't haveto sit up and square meals and
all that sort of stuff.
Lunch before herndon was in theafternoon.
It was the first thing ofcommissioning week on a friday.
We were at lunch, we were giddy, happy, we're going to do
herndon and that's, you know,our plea.
Beer will officially be over.
And we were a little bit toogiggly and giddy and a couple of
(10:37):
members of 83 were there andthey yelled at us at that lunch
and said we don't care what youguys do today at Herndon, you'll
always be pleased to us.
And so part of the reason that Iwrote that Herndon book and why
it was so important is thatthat was an unbelievable moment
in my life Second to graduation,when we finally got that cover
(11:00):
on there and that experience wasover.
It was an absolute crucible.
So I guess second part of yourquestion is, when I look back on
it, I'm very proud of the factthat I completed that crucible
and while I'm not happy at whathappened, I don't think I would
(11:22):
have had it any other way andit's.
It's all part of you know, itwas all part of the plan, god's
plan for me and all part of myjourney.
And if that hadn't happened,who knows how things you know
would have turned out.
But I think the thing for mewas and if you, in the beginning
of the book, eric and I so mydad was in the Marines, class 62
(11:45):
.
Eric's dad was not an academygrad, but he was a colonel in
the Marines.
During our plebe year, eric'sdad was in the Marine barracks
in Beirut.
Now, he wasn't there for thebombing, but that's where he was
for Eric's year.
In fact, eric, he wasn't therefor plebe, summer or parents
weekend, but Eric and I bothtalked about our dads and how we
(12:08):
grew up and for us, yeah, plebewas difficult, but we also knew
that there wasn't anymidshipmen that could yell at us
worse than our dads did, and wealso knew the midshipmen
couldn't hit us, which our dadshad no problem doing.
So our dads, that's why we saidthe you know the crucibles they
put us through and thecrucibles they endured.
(12:28):
That's why we put that in.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, oh, super interesting and I'm going to go
back to some of the originallyyou said which is again this
this almost shift intransformation from this idea
that, like, attrition is themission to development is the
mission, right?
And I think what's reallyinteresting and you call it out
in your Marine Corps chapter,it's a quote from General
Reynolds our goal is not to weedyou out.
That is not what a crucible isabout.
(12:51):
A crucible is about proving toyou that you can do hard things.
It goes on to say like we'rehunting for the good, we're
hunting for the good and thenwe'll make you elite, right?
And I think that's a reallyinteresting framing and
transition, which we will jumpinto a little bit further in the
episode.
But we keep using this termcrucible.
It's the title of the book.
Do you mind talking a littlebit about what?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
you define a crucible as, and what the book would
define a crucible as, and whatare the non-negotiable
components that actually make upa crucible, as we're
referencing this through theepisode.
Well, I think everyorganization, certainly every
elite organization who wants toconsider themselves elite, has
some sort of crucible, some sortof barrier to entry, and those
vary.
And I think that when you lookat a crucible as a defining
event, it's whatever thatorganization determines is
(13:50):
necessary for that organization.
And so when you look at acrucible, so for the Naval
Academy, the crucible is youhave to be able to pass the
Naval Academy curriculum, youknow if you're a.
I don't know what your major was.
I was an oceanography major.
But if you're an English major,hey, I'm really excited to take
(14:11):
a bunch of English classes.
You're not going to take abunch of English classes at the
Naval Academy, right, You're?
Going to take their amount.
All that STEM stuff gets jammeddown your throat, right, and you
have to pass the PRT, you haveto live within the confines of
an honorable existence, you'renot allowed to cheat, you have
(14:34):
to be okay with.
Hey, I'm a freshman and I'm notgoing to be able to drink beer
in my dorm room or go outwhenever I want, and that's part
of that, of that, of thatcrucible.
Sure, you know the, you knowthe, the, the Gurkhas in Nepal.
You know their crucible is in,in, in.
You know that that was a reallyinteresting chapter to to
(14:55):
research and write Right,because if you are a Gurkha if
you're, I mean Paul first of all, the per capita income is very,
very low.
And if you become a Gurkha,which is part of the British
army, you and your family arebasically set for life, and
that's why so many of the youngmen try to do that.
(15:17):
And in one of the things wetalk about in the book, one of
their final pieces of thecrucible is they have to haul a
bunch of rocks up a big hill,and even if one falls out, then
they're out, and so so manypeople try to do that and very
(15:40):
few succeed, and that's why theGERKs are considered an elite
organization If you look at.
You know Lori Reynolds hadtalked about, you know, the
Marine boot camp experience.
One of the really interestingthings and I think the other
services and I didn't know this,so one of the really fun things
about writing these books andresearching these books is that
Eric and I learned, you know, we, we don't.
(16:01):
It's not like we're subjectmatter experts at any of this
stuff, we just we.
Hey, this is interesting, solet's do some research.
And one of the things that Ididn't know is that the Marines
put their best people inrecruiting, whereas a lot the
other services don't necessarilydo that.
And the Marines and that's whythe Marines always hit their
(16:21):
goals, because if you getselected to be a Marine
recruiter, you're, you're thebest of the best, right, and, as
Lori said, yeah, we're, we're,we're.
We're not trying to weed youout.
We brought you in because wethink you can succeed and it's
our job to help you succeed.
So that's certainly the missionof the Naval Academy Now.
That's certainly the mission ofthe Naval Academy.
(16:41):
Now, that's certainly themission that the Naval Academy
is embracing, and I couldabsolutely make a case for both,
for both ways.
Sure, I know my, my wife and Ihave talked about this and she,
you know, if you ask her abouthey, who is the?
Who is the person pleaded,summer in your company that had
the most trouble?
Oh, kerr, about hey, who is theperson, please, summer in your
company that had the mosttrouble?
Oh, it was this person.
(17:03):
I won't say the name and whathappened?
Oh, they ran him out.
Okay, so one of the great thingsabout being alive in 2025 is
you have access to information,right?
A lot of you know.
So we're driving cross country.
I said, okay, let's Google thisguy, let's see what he's up to,
right, he's not a derelict,he's not living in the street,
(17:24):
he's the executive vicepresident of a bank in the
midwest.
So you're just fine, you'rejust doing great right, doing a
pillar of the community.
So the question is the name.
You know, the class of 83didn't feel like in 13th company
didn't feel like and 13thCompany didn't feel like he was
worthy of being in thisorganization.
(17:46):
Sure, but did we miss on him?
I don't know.
It's kind of an academicargument because it is what it
is right now.
Academic argument because it iswhat it is right now, but it's
fascinating to look at this.
The Naval Academy that has kindof changed their crucible event
(18:13):
so much, yet is still the sameorganization because most of
your crucible, you know, most ofthe organizations we looked at
did not do that.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah, no, and it's really fascinating because your
book does emphasize kind of likethe ethical shift of the
crucible design for modernorganizations and how things
have evolved significantly right.
And since you're a plebeian towhat the Academy is currently
doing, how do you think theAcademy has been able to
maintain and or improve thecrucible experience and still
(18:39):
maintain the same like integrityto the organization and same
mission, purpose and end desiredgoal, with a little bit of
shift and transformation on howit's executed?
Speaker 3 (18:50):
no, it's a great question and and I think what
the academy has done- andwhether, whether it was by.
I mean, I know whether they wantto take credit and say, yeah,
which was the all along, orwhether it's just kind of how it
happened or it was an accident.
But people have changed right.
So if you look at, you know, soyou know, baby boom, you know,
(19:11):
my wife says we're not babyboomers, but we are.
We're born in 63 and 64.
So you know, the baby boomer isway different than the Gen X,
which is way different than themillennial, which is way
different than the current groupwas Gen Z, and there's no way
(19:50):
that the academy could havemaintained the way that they
were doing things as thesegenerations shifted.
Mm-hmm, alive still would say,oh, you know, your plea beer was
nothing compared to ours.
You know, you guys were softbecause a lot of the stuff that
happened in the old days wasjust a lot of really.
You know the kids hazing,physical abuse, all that type of
stuff, and really was that?
(20:11):
You mean that stuff's not goingto fly right now.
But was that stuff necessaryfor the crucible?
Right, because now if they said, hey, we're not going to have
any physical standards anymore,that would not be.
You know that crucible is stillthere.
Hey, we're not a credit, youknow we don't.
We're kind of a glorifiedcommunity college.
(20:31):
We're not accredited anymore.
So so the academics, that's nota crucible.
That stuff is still there.
You still have to wear auniform, you still have to Again
, not the bad stuff doesn'thappen at Bancroft Hall, but
it's not allowed and if you getcaught you get hammered so
that's it.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
It still sucks.
Being on restrictions stillsucks.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
I'll tell you what although even that's gotten a
little bit less you could.
They got a little communityservice stuff you can do now.
So so, to answer your question,yeah, some of the more tactical
specific things are different.
And I just had a greatopportunity one of my mentees as
(21:14):
a squad leader this summer andI got an opportunity to talk to
a couple company worth of plebesabout 60 plebes and you know
and we got to kind of talk about, you know, what the whole kind
of purpose of this is and reallythe in the old days again
missions.
So if you fail, that was likeokay, you're gone, now it's okay
, you fail, that's okay, it'sokay to fail, but let's, let's,
(21:39):
let's try to make sure you thatdoesn't happen again now if you
continue to fail then, we, thenmaybe this isn't the right place
for you, sure, but if you'retrying to figure it out, if
you're, you've got life.
You know these are 18, 19, 20year old kids.
If they have life skill issues,we need to help them with that.
Sure, again, with the guy thatcouldn't make it in the summer
(22:02):
of 1982, would he have been atremendous naval officer?
Maybe and I think so the flipside is we missed.
Maybe we missed out on a lot ofreally good people.
Sure, because we ran people outwho couldn't figure it out.
Or are we graduating a fewpeople that maybe shouldn't, but
we're getting people who?
(22:22):
You know what I'm saying.
You're always going to eithergetting rid of people you
shouldn't have got rid of ormaybe graduating a few people
that maybe shouldn't havegraduated.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Interesting.
That's a fascinatingperspective and kind of what
I'll almost tailor this nextpiece of your answer to, which
is after studying a ton of eliteorganizations and your flexion
on the Naval Academy from yourtime to today's in generation,
how do you even begin to measurewhether a crucible experience
(22:51):
has actually worked?
What indicators do we show thatthe Naval Academy's crucible
experience is producing theleaders that America needs and
that we're not, you know,missing out on?
Too many people are now, atthis point, maybe producing too
many who don't actually for lackof a better term, I don't, I
don't know that deserve is theright word, but like, maybe
(23:12):
shouldn't have made it through.
But how do we, how do wemeasure success in that, in the
success of a crucible event?
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Well, I think you I I mean the customer is the fleet,
right.
So I think you know when youlook at what's really
interesting in your class of 17,right, okay?
So you know, your, your, yourpeers are still in our, you know
, senior lieutenants and but 10years from now they're going to
(23:39):
be, you know, you know, incommand and then 10 years after
that they're going to startmaking flag and all this stuff
and you're going to say, did youhear so?
And so made flag?
What that guy used to get drunkon the car every Saturday night
.
So there's a lot, you know.
Obviously there's a lot ofAcademy people out there and
(24:03):
from the feedback that I getfrom you know, and really my
class, very few are on still onactive duty.
I mean Jim Kilby, who's theacting CNO, he's one of them,
but we just have a small handful.
But at one time my class hadfifth, sixth and seventh fleet
(24:24):
handful.
But at one time my class hadfifth, sixth and seventh fleet.
Uh, and if you talk to them,hey, the academy, the academy,
you know, officers that you knowcome out either.
Marine corps and the navy sideare doing great things.
And if we, if we get into asituation where it is.
Again, I think if you're a, youknow, if you're a captain, you
don't really care how someone'splea of year was.
Hey, can I trust you as alieutenant JG, as officer of the
(24:47):
deck, so I can get some sleepwhen we're in the middle of the
ocean, no one else cares, no onecares about the crucible, and
that's really what the deal is.
Can you answer the bell as anorganization?
Really, what the deal can youanswer the bell?
Can you, you know, as anorganization?
And really, until you getfeedback that, hey, you know, I
don't know what about the classof fill in the blank?
(25:08):
But, yeah, you know, I hadeight of them, show you know,
four of them showed up to myship and I, none of them could
qualify and I had to.
Just, they had to all separatethem for the navy.
Well then, that's a problem, butI'm not hearing that.
And and I don't hear that, yeah, you know, every academy grad
goes down to Pensacola fails outof flight school.
Not hearing that, I'm nothearing about, hey, everybody
(25:29):
that goes down to TBS, we can'tget any Marines.
Every everyer conflict withChina, which I still, I think a
lot of people are predictingthat I'm not in that camp and
(25:49):
that's obviously.
That's a Paul Becker discussion.
If we did have some sort ofconflict like that and the Naval
Academy people, officers outthere did not perform as good or
better than the OCS and Nazipeople, then I think you would
(26:10):
have a problem because we're ina very austere budget
environment and it costs a lotof money to Naval Academy is not
cheap.
I mean, there's a lot ofoverhead.
I mean there's a lot.
I mean NAAA pays for itself, butyou got all the military people
there, you got the faculty, yougot the staff and the
infrastructure.
I mean it's expensive to youknow, if somebody leaves.
(26:33):
I think they tag the number at$250,000 or something, and I
don't know where they get thatnumber from, but it's a lot of
money.
So I think for the NavalAcademy in the future, you have
to make sure there's a return oninvestment.
Or you know, hey, why do wehave the Naval Academy when we
had this war with China that welost and all the Naval Academy
people that didn't do very well?
(26:54):
That, I think, will be a toughconversation to have.
Hopefully it won't happen.
I don't think it will happen,but that, I think, is where to
answer your question in aroundabout way.
That's where people are goingto question the crucible if
we're not successful.
And then I guess the littletangent aside is, with the new
superintendent coming in, afirst Marine, everybody's very
(27:15):
interested to see what's goingto happen with that.
Sure.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah, it kind of goes back to what you said, which is
that the crucible will changewith the people Right and if the
, if the, the avatar of thepeople in the kind of the most
senior leadership positionshifts again.
Like how does that affect theorganization and and the
crucible.
So really, really, reallyinteresting and fascinating
stuff.
I appreciate your insight there.
(27:40):
The kind of next piece that Ido want to talk about is we keep
on mentioning this crucibleevent and a lot of the stuff in
the book.
The Marine Corps is their13-week boot camp.
You have a lot of differentstuff.
That's kind of a shorter timeframe.
How does it apply to the NavalAcademy?
Because we've talked aboutreally Plebe Summer being a
crucible event, but also reallyPlebe Year, and then we go back
(28:02):
and talk about well, really it'sactually the academic crucible
and the physical crucible.
That kind of goes all fouryears.
Does it ever end?
Like, what is the?
How would you actually definethe true Naval Academy crucible
event?
Or can it be crucible within acrucible, almost
crucible-ception?
How are we kind of likedefining that and how does it
(28:22):
relate to the Naval Academyorganization?
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Okay, yeah, good question.
So I think the way I would lookat it is is it's, it's a daily
grind and you can, you know,it's not just about the exams,
it's not just about the physicalreadiness test, it just isn't
about summer training, it's theand you obviously went through
(28:45):
it.
Uh, it's the day to day stuff.
It's and and it's not the bigstuff, it's the little stuff.
And one of the things when Ilook at elite organizations,
most organizations out therelet's pick fast food.
If you go to any fast foodrestaurant, they're going to be
(29:06):
able to prepare food, give it toyou, accept payment, and most
people, most fast food places,can do that.
Well, what makes Chick-fil-A sounique?
Because they do the littlestuff right.
They're fast, they're courteous, the places are always spotless
(29:28):
right.
So one of the things that I'veobserved is that most people can
do the big stuff, but reallytruly elite people and elite
organizations do the littlestuff.
And I would say the little stuffat the academy is just dealing
with the day-to-day grind.
And how do I, you know, justpick a snapshot in time.
Hey, I've got a forestall, I'vegot a forestall.
(29:49):
I've got a big test tomorrow,but there's a forestall lecture,
right, I've got, you know, I, I, I have a, uh, I, I, you know,
pull the muscle, but I've got todo the prt tomorrow.
Uh, you know, I'm down it.
I'm down at leatherneck doingmy marine training and we
haven't been around here.
It's been super, super hotlately, right, they've got to be
(30:11):
absolutely, you know, it's gotto be really rough on them.
So it's that day-to-day stuffand I think what the academy
does, not necessarily on purpose, and maybe it is on purpose
because, again, you have the bigstuff, but can you just deal
with the day-to-day today-to-day stuff, right?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
and it is a grind the daily grind.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
And the other thing is I think the Academy still
does a great job of if you havea weakness, the Academy is going
to find it, they're going toexploit it and it's okay to have
that a weakness we all haveweaknesses but if you're not
able to fix that weakness andaddress that weakness, you're
not going to be successful.
If you cannot figure out how topass STEM classes, you're not
(30:55):
going to.
You're just not going to besuccessful.
If you can't, if you're justnot a good runner and you can't
figure out a way to pass the runof the PRT, you're you're not
going to be successful.
And you know it could besomething as hey, I need to pass
this, I didn't study for thistest and I want to have, I don't
want to be on sack because Idon't want to lose my weekends.
(31:16):
And man, it's really temptingright now to look at my neighbor
Grant's paper because I knowhe's super smart, he's probably
got the right answers.
Man, it's really tempting tolook over and take a look and
and check out that answer,something as small as that, and
having the discipline and thatgrind to say nope, I'm going to
the myths, say fail with honor,I'm going to fail with honor.
(31:37):
And it's just the little,little little stuff that happens
every single day.
It's just, and that's why it's.
You see Naval Academy, people goout.
You know, obviously successfulin the military.
But you know, and you're aLinkedIn guy, look at all the
famous and you know successfulpeople on LinkedIn and that's
(31:57):
just life Right and you know so.
So it's good preparation.
I mean, the Naval Academy isway better preparation for for
being adulting, as the kidswould say that it is going to
San Diego state and party RightCause you've got to be present
every single day.
You've got to be successfulevery single day, and really
that's the crucible.
(32:18):
That's really what it's allabout being successful in a lot
of different things, battlingthrough your adversity, battling
through the things that youaren't that good at, but doing
it every single day.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that framing.
I think it's a great answer.
It's something that I alwaystalk about again on this
platform and just in general,which is that the Naval Academy
is going to make you someone whohandles the hard moments of
life better, like the dailygrind better, just because
you've done it, because you knowhow to adjust to it, you know
how to adapt to it and just workthrough it, and I think it's a
(32:52):
great framing of, like the NavalAcademy Crucible experience.
I think that's really cool andit's something that goes for me
every day and I do appreciatethat.
Shout out If you are someone,follow me on LinkedIn.
I love it, always there, alwaysposting.
So thanks for that, since youbrought it up.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
I mean, you're a perfect example of that.
You, you do a ton of things.
You're super engaged, you'reyou know, you're the epitome of
the.
You know, if you want somethingdone, give it to the busiest
person.
You know, and you make it lookreally, really easy.
I get tired just reading yourlinkedin posts because of all
(33:26):
the different stuff that you do,but the thing that really
really impresses me about yougrant and I'm gonna say this
appreciate, you know publicly iseverything you do.
It's always for other people,right, I mean, the academy
insider is not you talking aboutyour basketball career, right?
Although you'd probably love toto do every single podcast
(33:47):
talking about?
Speaker 1 (33:49):
in my dad's office with the jersey behind.
Just yeah, just casually, rightbut it's not.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
And for somebody of your age to be so devoted to
other people in service, it'sreally inspiring and I like to
think that that at this stage ofmy life, at 61 and semi-retired
, you know I'm I'm giving back,I think a little bit uh, but for
you, at your stage of the game,all that you give back I I mean
you, you know a year in yourlife is way more than most
(34:15):
people do their entire lives.
So I, you know, I thank you andI appreciate everything that
you do for so many people.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
That's, I'm humbled, without like thank you, that's
really kind.
I just, you know the NavalAcademy, the crucible experience
for me, was verytransformational, right, like I
think I probably had one of themore polarizing experiences and
so that's kind of led me to this, to this path, right, and it's
something that even though.
Right the letter, the letterhome.
(34:43):
I hate this freaking place.
Get me out of here now.
Dude, like what did I do?
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Your mom saved that obviously.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Oh, it's framed in the house.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Is it really?
Oh, she'll never let me live itdown.
She'll never let me live it down, you know, and that's what I,
you know, that's what I tried totell the, that's what I tried
to tell the pleads on Monday.
I said you know, I said you,everybody's here for different
(35:16):
reasons.
Okay, don't be intimidatedbecause you don't.
Your reason is as good assomeone else, it doesn't really
matter.
Right, everybody has differentreasons for coming.
You're here now, and that nowit's about getting you know.
Getting you, you know, gettingto a point where you can leave
right, you know doing everythingyou can before you graduate to
make yourself the best you can.
And hey, if you're strugglingright now and you're failing,
that's part of it, that's thewhole thing.
And if you go in and I thinkthey got it because a couple of
(35:38):
kids chime in, you know you wantto fail now because that's,
this is a low risk.
No one's going to get killed ifyou fail at the as the Naval
Academy.
But now in the fleet, peopledie, right, people die and
people get hurt and equipmentgets ruined, et cetera, et
cetera, et cetera.
So for someone to say you knowwhat, I went through the Naval
(36:00):
Academy, I didn't fail atanything any time I would be
really worried.
I would be really worriedbecause the other thing, not
only you're not fixing somethings.
I've seen people who haven'tbeen successful because they
haven't figured out how to fail.
And if you don't know how tofail, then you get failure.
Then what?
Here come the failure.
(36:20):
Not me, not me, not me.
I think the Academy could do abetter job of explaining why
things happen there, even thingsthat kind of seem dumb.
And why are we doing this?
Because it's an opportunity toput you under stress and an
(36:47):
opportunity for you to fail in avery maybe high stress for your
POV point of view, but low risk.
You know, chow calls, chowcalls.
You know, if your audiencedoesn't know it's 10 minutes and
five minutes for formation,please do it.
They scream out a bunch ofinformation.
You know where the formation is,the uniform, all this different
(37:10):
information and people.
You know, oh well, I've, Igotta do a chow call.
This is so dumb.
Well, the reason a chow call isimportant is because and your
wife would, I think, say this,as she's flying around her
helicopter, something happens inher helicopter, god forbid.
She has to understand, no,those emergency procedures, has
(37:30):
to recall them, has thoseemergency procedures, has to
recall them, has to say them outloud to her co-pilot and they
can't look it up, they can'tGoogle it and that's a little
bit of stress, right, if you'reflying around and something
happens.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
I'll tell you what her and I we spent our date
nights for a good year and ahalf.
Was her going through her EPswith me on the couch, right Like
we said, eps, emergencyprocedures right Like.
Because if something happens,there's no pulling out the
booklet, right no, pulling outreef points right Like.
If something happens.
If that indicator shows awarning failure, then she needs
(38:03):
to take immediate action.
She needs to know exactly whatshe's doing to save this, save
the helicopter, right.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Absolutely, and so, yeah, so there is value in
learning how to learn somethingthat maybe you're not familiar
with, be able to memorize it,then regurgitate it under a
stressful environment, and ifyou have three people standing
around you waiting for you tochoke and you choke and you get
(38:29):
yelled at or whatever, thenthat's a failure that we want to
happen now, not when you're outon deployment, flying out of
flying a 60 helicopter heck yeahand but we?
but academy doesn't do a goodjob of explaining that not only
to the police but to all themen's.
Sure, and some get it, but, butyou know, for formations you
(38:49):
now I'm going to get on mysoapbox, but formation is
another thing, you know.
It's viewed as formation isviewed, as you know, irritant.
And why do I have to do thisand why can't I sleep in all of
a sudden?
Because formation is.
It builds that muscle memory ofmaking sure you know where your
(39:09):
people are at, of making sureyou know where your people are
at and when you're underway on aship and where's so-and-so.
Oh, I think I saw him in thehead.
Oh, okay, no, we need to citethat person.
They might have fallen off theship, right, and that's our
number one job as officers is totake care of our people, and
(39:32):
you can't take care of yourpeople if you don't know where
they're at.
So, yes, maybe the number offormations is excessive, okay,
that's fine.
But guess what, when you get onthe fleet, that will be so
drummed into your head thatyou'll never, ever forget it.
And if we start easing off onthis and now they have sleep ins
and sign ins and all this otherstuff.
I worry that we're losing thatmuscle memory, and that's how
(39:57):
bad things happen is when wedon't have 100% accountability
of people, and that's our job.
You can't take care of yourpeople that way.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Sure, yeah, no, it's.
I appreciate you saying allthat.
You know, it's something that,again, I like having the
opportunity, hopefully, to this.
You know, usually my audienceis really the families and the
parents, but get to articulatethat mission or like that
purpose to them, right, so theyunderstand it.
Because, again, I mentioned itand I got to speak at the
Welcome Abort event for theincoming families in Southern
(40:26):
California this past year and Imentioned, right like that day I
was supposed to fly out toVietnam to visit my wife on a
port visit the day previous.
We, you know again as aworrywart, I'm always just
looking at, you know, opensource, intelligent reports all
over the world.
Anyways, I see missile launchesgoing from Iran into Israel,
(40:47):
israel into Iran, right, and youknow, ship gets immediate
tasking.
They, they go all ahead, flankout their port visit canceled.
All this different stuff.
I know that my wife is is likelygoing towards war, right, and
you know, I know that she'sscared, I know that I'm scared,
I know that my family is scaredand her family's scared, but
(41:08):
kind of, the message to theplebes was like you know who
else is was like you know whoelse is scared, you know who
else is afraid.
Your sailors, her sailors,right, and the mom and dad of
those sailors, yes, and thewhole point of the Naval Academy
is going through that dailygrind, is going through all
those terrible things.
So you can not only handle yourown personal emotion and
(41:29):
afraidness, but take on theburden of theirs.
Yes, exactly, and so like thatis that is the point, that is
the purpose, like that is whywe're here, this is why we're
going through crucible events,so you can handle yourself and
take on the burden of the fearof others, right, and and lead
them and take care of them,right, it all comes back to
taking care of your people.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Yeah.
And last thing, as we wrap uphere I just had that exact
conversation again with theplebs is hey, you have to figure
you said it perfectly you haveto figure out how to take care
of your stuff so you can takecare of your sailors, and you
can't if their work isstruggling because they have a
(42:12):
family issue at home and theysay, oh well, my mom's sick.
Well, let me tell you about mymom and dad are both sick.
They're both in the hospital.
You think you got it bad, I gotit bad.
That's not the way it works andthat's building the warrior
ethos and resiliency of, yeah,taking this four years to where,
yeah, you go on emergency leave.
(42:32):
It's sad that you had apersonal tragedy or whatever,
but that's not an excuse just tofail all your classes.
That's not an excuse not to getout of bed, because you can't
do that.
When you're out at sea, noone's interested in what you
have going on and your troopsdefinitely don't want to hear it
.
In fact, real quick story Iwent out to the desert and I
(42:53):
replaced an Air Force 06.
And when I got there, my XO saidyou know, he really, really was
not liked because all he didwas complain about how much he
missed his family.
And everybody said we miss ourfamilies too.
Right, and this is an 06 whodidn't get that right.
(43:13):
So, as a leader, which is whatyou're going to be immediately,
that's what's so fun about beinga JO, right, you go as a leader
and you get your butt kicked ona daily basis, but you're
learning.
But, yeah, no one cares aboutyour stuff.
You've got to be locked in andhopefully again through the
crucible of the daily grind ofthe academy, you've learned how
(43:34):
to do that.
So when you get out there,you're ready to go.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Heck, yeah, I love it .
This episode is going to go outover Plebe Parents Weekend that
Sunday.
Any words to the parents andmaybe even the plebes who may be
listening about again.
I know we just talked aboutreally the power and importance
of these crucible events, butabout completing plebs summer
and getting ready to take on theacademic year.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Yeah, I guess to the plebs it's absolutely worth it.
It may not seem at the time,but there is a method to the
madness.
And so just, just again, justembrace.
You know they say, embrace thesuck, just just every single day
.
Realize there's probably 10people that wanted your spot and
any of them would trade placeswith you.
So just do your best and justunderstand that this is all part
(44:19):
of the plan.
And to the parents just supportthem, right, support them and
help them see the big picture.
And, you know, let them vent alittle bit.
You know, if you get a letterthat says I hate this place, you
know, take it with a grain ofsalt, frame it right, but don't
think that you've got to getinvolved.
You know, let them vent andthen support them and it's all
(44:41):
going to be okay.
And it really is alife-changing event to graduate
from the Naval Academy with notonly, you know, the alumni and
the and the bond that you havewith other classes, but you know
we've got our 43 union comingup next fall, uh, and you're
going to, we're going to, I'mgoing to see people I haven't
seen in 25 years and I'm goingto hug them like I saw him
yesterday, and you don't getthat experience from any other
(45:05):
school, so I would tell them tohang in there.
It's worth it.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Jim, thank you so much for being here.
I appreciate it, love itEveryone.
Again, if you want to readabout these stories and how it
relates to the Naval Academy, gocheck out the brand new book
crucibles.
We really appreciate it.
Thanks for your time today.
You bet.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Have a good day everyone.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode of the Academy
insider podcast.
I really hope you liked it,enjoyed it and learned something
during this time.
If you did, please feel free tolike and subscribe or leave a
comment about the episode.
We really appreciate to hearyour feedback about everything
and continue to make AcademyInsider an amazing service that
(45:45):
guides, serves and supportsmidshipmen, future midshipmen
and their families.
Thank you.
Hey everyone and welcome back to the Academy
Insider Podcast.
In this episode I have a guestreturn.
He's been on the podcast acouple of times Admiral Jim
McNeil.
He just published a brand newbook called Crucibles, which is
an interesting perspective andresearch and thought book about
elite organizations and kind ofthe rites of passage and
indoctrination phases for thoseorganizations.
(00:21):
They talk about the NASAprogram, they talk about the
Marine Corps, they talk aboutmonks and different
organizations, even the mob, totalk about kind of how elite-run
organizations have utilizedcrucibles in order to get people
to go from zero to one intotheir organization, and so I
love this.
It's super exciting.
The book is actually framedaround his police summer
experience and how the NavalAcademy is continuing to run
(00:44):
this crucible in the preparationof Navy and Marine Corps
officers.
I'm so excited You're going tolove this episode.
Check it out and let me knowwhat you think.
Thanks so much and enjoy thelisten.
Hi everyone and welcome back tothe Academy Insider Podcast.
I'm McNeil my guy.
Welcome back.
(01:04):
Thank you.
Insider Podcast.
I'm with McNeil my guy.
Welcome back.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
For anyone who hasn't beenlistening to the podcast or
heard one of your many visits onthe podcast before, do you mind
just doing a quick introductionof yourself so that people know
who you are and what you'recurrently doing at the Academy?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, grant, thanks so much for having me on and I'm
a 1986 grad supply corpsofficer, was in the reserves for
25 years.
After my six years of activeduty, seven command tours, three
XO tours, a couple ofdeployments to the Middle East.
In conjunction with that, I hada civilian job.
(01:42):
I was an owner of a businessexecutive search business.
I retired in 2017.
My wife, who's also a classmate, got her PhD.
She's a professor at TowsonUniversity in Baltimore, so we
moved back here in 2018.
Teaching NE203, ethical andmoral reasoning for the naval
(02:03):
leader since 2020, and mentorlots of mids.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Lots of mids.
That's the understatement ofthe century.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Yeah lots of mids and so, just by virtue of being
there every day and hearingthings, I'm probably more in
tune with what's going on at theacademy than most people, than
most.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah, absolutely, and you use that to even author
books as well, and this is whatwe're again so excited to do it.
You're on your third book.
You had one about Herndon Klein, another about leadership
development and this third andmost recent, an incredible book
here called Crucibles.
And so really the firstquestion, just to start us off,
is what was the interest,motivation, what caused you to
(02:45):
actually do the research intomany historical elite,
performing organizations, towrite this book?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So our thanks for the shout out on our first two
books, the Herndon Climb andSide by Side.
So for the Herndon Climb, thatwas published by the Naval
Institute Press and we were, Iwas with another author, we did
a author meet and greet, kind ofquestion and answer session at
(03:14):
the Naval Institute Pressbuilding in Hospital Point, and
so they said, hey, find us amoderator and you know, have
them ask you questions and we'llinvite people, et cetera, et
cetera, you know kind ofpublicity tour.
So I was, I was really reallysmart, I handpicked the
moderator I took, I said, okay,give me the questions in advance
.
And so when he asked me thequestions during this event, he,
(03:36):
I, I seemed incredibly eloquentand and had great answers to
all of his questions.
And I was cruising along andthen at the end last thing he
said was unscripted hey, what'syour next project?
And all of his questions.
And I was cruising along andthen at the end last thing he
said was unscripted, hey, what'syour next project?
And all of a sudden I was butand so I kind of bumbled and
stumbled my way and I just offthe off the cuff, said, well, I
(03:56):
think it'd be really cool to doa book about the the history of
of plea beer at the navalacademy.
And he said, okay, well, that'sgreat.
And then we kind of ended itthere and I just kind of tucked
that away.
So my writing partner, ericSmith, and I, when we got done
with Side by Side, we had turnedthat into the publisher we
started talking about differentpotential projects and I said,
(04:18):
hey, why don't we?
You know, I mentioned this atthis author event, what do you
think about that?
And he said, well, why don't we?
You know, I'm not sure that wecould frame an entire book on
that.
And then the other little piecethat I had was a tidbit of
information is there's a classat the Academy called Code of
the Warrior and it's all.
(04:40):
And I don't know if you tookthat there or heard of that
class, but you study differentorganizations and the reason I
know about that class is becausethey have posters that are all
over Luce Hall, which is theprofessional development
building.
They're in the stairwells.
Every time you walk up thestairs you see them.
I said, hey, let me call youback.
I took pictures of all of thesedifferent posters.
(05:01):
I said, what if we did a bookframed with our Plebe experience
.
So maybe the prologue was PlebeSummer, the epilogue was Plebe
Year, and then we looked atthese various organizations that
took kind of normal people,everyday people, and made them
elite and what are?
(05:21):
some of the lessons that wecould learn from that, and so
that's what we ended up doingthe introduction.
I interviewed dr marcus hedol,who was one of the philosophy
teachers at the naval academy,and he did a really great job of
kind of framing it, and then wejust picked different
organizations.
We probably had 25 that wesubmitted or that was on our in
(05:43):
our proposal that we were goingto look at and we settled on the
ones that ended up in the bookand we had some really, really
great interviews also, and thatthat's, I think, what really
made it fun.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, no, it's so cool.
And again, if it spans so manydifferent organizations, time
periods, et cetera, lots ofdifferent thought into this book
, which is incredible.
But, like you mentioned, youuse your own plebe experience as
the framing for this entirebook and so for our Academy
audience, you mind walking usthrough in reflection what made
your plebe year such a defining,crucible experience for you,
(06:17):
and how do you recognize it now,the way that it was
transforming you back then thatyou might have not even
understood.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah, great, great question.
So I had a little bit of anadvantage because I ended up
having to go to the NavalAcademy Prep School, which was
fantastic for me.
I was only 17 when I graduatedhigh school, so it was kind of a
great you know, redshirt yearthat I could do.
So when I got to the NavalAcademy for Plebe Summer and the
Napsters come in a day earlyand we started, it wasn't that
(06:52):
big of a deal to me.
I knew how to march, I knew howto wear a uniform, I had a
haircut.
I always was blessed with areally good memory.
So really, plebe Summer wasn'tvery difficult.
And the thing about plebesummer was the ratio really
worked in your favor because youhad a squad of, say, 12 plebes
(07:13):
and you had a squad leader, andthen there were other some other
assorted detailers, butprobably the ratio was five or
six to one, so five or sixplebes to one upper class and
typically, like I said, I had agood memory.
I was always very good at ratesand could always regurgitate
what I needed to on command, andso during Plead Summer if you
(07:35):
were able to get your answersout, they would usually leave
you alone.
So I had a pretty good themeals would be, they'd ask you a
reign If you got it.
You got to pretty much eat.
So plead summer in that sensewas, was, was fairly easy.
Then the academic year startedand the ratio flipped.
And you know, I think one ofthe big, you know the old days
(07:59):
it used to be the mission wasattrition.
In the old days the navalacademy and this is just my
opinion, this is not officialnaval academy pao stuff, but
this is my observation the navalacademies in my day said hey,
here's somebody on paper wholooks really really good.
They seem to have what it takesmorally, mentally, physically
(08:22):
to be successful.
Uh, so we're going to give thema shot.
But they're going to put themthrough this crucible.
And if they make it great, andif they don't, that's fine too.
And so during Cleve Summer therewere classmates of mine that
struggled.
And if you struggled CleveSummer, the class of 83, our
favorites, our firsties they ranpeople out, they ran people out
(08:47):
of there.
And so once the academic yearstarted it was really really
tough.
The meals were the worst time.
The meals were.
You had to serve the upperclass all of their drinks, their
meals, all in the meantimeanswering rates and so your
(09:10):
entire and lunch and dinner weremandatory.
So lunch and dinner you prettymuch didn't eat and you were
serving the upper class andanswering rates and if you were
lucky the upper class wouldleave and you would get a chance
to maybe get something to eat.
But you had to go, you couldn'tleave early and it was just
(09:31):
every single day, twice a day,just getting beat on and beat on
, and beat on.
And it was and they didn't, andin the class of 83, maybe
somebody that listens to listenare going to be listening to
this, maybe somebody that'sgoing to be listening to this?
They took particular delight inperforming that mission, and at
least the ones in my company.
(09:51):
They just didn't like us.
There's no other way to put it.
And so they didn't let up at alland I can remember when we went
into exams second semester thebrigade commander was a football
player.
He gave us carry-on.
Basically we could eat normallyat meals.
(10:13):
Carry-on means we didn't haveto sit up and square meals and
all that sort of stuff.
Lunch before herndon was in theafternoon.
It was the first thing ofcommissioning week on a friday.
We were at lunch, we were giddy, happy, we're going to do
herndon and that's, you know,our plea.
Beer will officially be over.
And we were a little bit toogiggly and giddy and a couple of
(10:37):
members of 83 were there andthey yelled at us at that lunch
and said we don't care what youguys do today at Herndon, you'll
always be pleased to us.
And so part of the reason that Iwrote that Herndon book and why
it was so important is thatthat was an unbelievable moment
in my life Second to graduation,when we finally got that cover
(11:00):
on there and that experience wasover.
It was an absolute crucible.
So I guess second part of yourquestion is, when I look back on
it, I'm very proud of the factthat I completed that crucible
and while I'm not happy at whathappened, I don't think I would
(11:22):
have had it any other way andit's.
It's all part of you know, itwas all part of the plan, god's
plan for me and all part of myjourney.
And if that hadn't happened,who knows how things you know
would have turned out.
But I think the thing for mewas and if you, in the beginning
of the book, eric and I so mydad was in the Marines, class 62
(11:45):
.
Eric's dad was not an academygrad, but he was a colonel in
the Marines.
During our plebe year, eric'sdad was in the Marine barracks
in Beirut.
Now, he wasn't there for thebombing, but that's where he was
for Eric's year.
In fact, eric, he wasn't therefor plebe, summer or parents
weekend, but Eric and I bothtalked about our dads and how we
(12:08):
grew up and for us, yeah, plebewas difficult, but we also knew
that there wasn't anymidshipmen that could yell at us
worse than our dads did, and wealso knew the midshipmen
couldn't hit us, which our dadshad no problem doing.
So our dads, that's why we saidthe you know the crucibles they
put us through and thecrucibles they endured.
(12:28):
That's why we put that in.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, oh, super interesting and I'm going to go
back to some of the originallyyou said which is again this
this almost shift intransformation from this idea
that, like, attrition is themission to development is the
mission, right?
And I think what's reallyinteresting and you call it out
in your Marine Corps chapter,it's a quote from General
Reynolds our goal is not to weedyou out.
That is not what a crucible isabout.
(12:51):
A crucible is about proving toyou that you can do hard things.
It goes on to say like we'rehunting for the good, we're
hunting for the good and thenwe'll make you elite, right?
And I think that's a reallyinteresting framing and
transition, which we will jumpinto a little bit further in the
episode.
But we keep using this termcrucible.
It's the title of the book.
Do you mind talking a littlebit about what?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
you define a crucible as, and what the book would
define a crucible as, and whatare the non-negotiable
components that actually make upa crucible, as we're
referencing this through theepisode.
Well, I think everyorganization, certainly every
elite organization who wants toconsider themselves elite, has
some sort of crucible, some sortof barrier to entry, and those
vary.
And I think that when you lookat a crucible as a defining
event, it's whatever thatorganization determines is
(13:50):
necessary for that organization.
And so when you look at acrucible, so for the Naval
Academy, the crucible is youhave to be able to pass the
Naval Academy curriculum, youknow if you're a.
I don't know what your major was.
I was an oceanography major.
But if you're an English major,hey, I'm really excited to take
(14:11):
a bunch of English classes.
You're not going to take abunch of English classes at the
Naval Academy, right, You're?
Going to take their amount.
All that STEM stuff gets jammeddown your throat, right, and you
have to pass the PRT, you haveto live within the confines of
an honorable existence, you'renot allowed to cheat, you have
(14:34):
to be okay with.
Hey, I'm a freshman and I'm notgoing to be able to drink beer
in my dorm room or go outwhenever I want, and that's part
of that, of that, of thatcrucible.
Sure, you know the, you knowthe, the, the Gurkhas in Nepal.
You know their crucible is in,in, in.
You know that that was a reallyinteresting chapter to to
(14:55):
research and write Right,because if you are a Gurkha if
you're, I mean Paul first of all, the per capita income is very,
very low.
And if you become a Gurkha,which is part of the British
army, you and your family arebasically set for life, and
that's why so many of the youngmen try to do that.
(15:17):
And in one of the things wetalk about in the book, one of
their final pieces of thecrucible is they have to haul a
bunch of rocks up a big hill,and even if one falls out, then
they're out, and so so manypeople try to do that and very
(15:40):
few succeed, and that's why theGERKs are considered an elite
organization If you look at.
You know Lori Reynolds hadtalked about, you know, the
Marine boot camp experience.
One of the really interestingthings and I think the other
services and I didn't know this,so one of the really fun things
about writing these books andresearching these books is that
Eric and I learned, you know, we, we don't.
(16:01):
It's not like we're subjectmatter experts at any of this
stuff, we just we.
Hey, this is interesting, solet's do some research.
And one of the things that Ididn't know is that the Marines
put their best people inrecruiting, whereas a lot the
other services don't necessarilydo that.
And the Marines and that's whythe Marines always hit their
(16:21):
goals, because if you getselected to be a Marine
recruiter, you're, you're thebest of the best, right, and, as
Lori said, yeah, we're, we're,we're.
We're not trying to weed youout.
We brought you in because wethink you can succeed and it's
our job to help you succeed.
So that's certainly the missionof the Naval Academy Now.
That's certainly the mission ofthe Naval Academy.
(16:41):
Now, that's certainly themission that the Naval Academy
is embracing, and I couldabsolutely make a case for both,
for both ways.
Sure, I know my, my wife and Ihave talked about this and she,
you know, if you ask her abouthey, who is the?
Who is the person pleaded,summer in your company that had
the most trouble?
Oh, kerr, about hey, who is theperson, please, summer in your
company that had the mosttrouble?
Oh, it was this person.
(17:03):
I won't say the name and whathappened?
Oh, they ran him out.
Okay, so one of the great thingsabout being alive in 2025 is
you have access to information,right?
A lot of you know.
So we're driving cross country.
I said, okay, let's Google thisguy, let's see what he's up to,
right, he's not a derelict,he's not living in the street,
(17:24):
he's the executive vicepresident of a bank in the
midwest.
So you're just fine, you'rejust doing great right, doing a
pillar of the community.
So the question is the name.
You know, the class of 83didn't feel like in 13th company
didn't feel like and 13thCompany didn't feel like he was
worthy of being in thisorganization.
(17:46):
Sure, but did we miss on him?
I don't know.
It's kind of an academicargument because it is what it
is right now.
Academic argument because it iswhat it is right now, but it's
fascinating to look at this.
The Naval Academy that has kindof changed their crucible event
(18:13):
so much, yet is still the sameorganization because most of
your crucible, you know, most ofthe organizations we looked at
did not do that.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah, no, and it's really fascinating because your
book does emphasize kind of likethe ethical shift of the
crucible design for modernorganizations and how things
have evolved significantly right.
And since you're a plebeian towhat the Academy is currently
doing, how do you think theAcademy has been able to
maintain and or improve thecrucible experience and still
(18:39):
maintain the same like integrityto the organization and same
mission, purpose and end desiredgoal, with a little bit of
shift and transformation on howit's executed?
Speaker 3 (18:50):
no, it's a great question and and I think what
the academy has done- andwhether, whether it was by.
I mean, I know whether they wantto take credit and say, yeah,
which was the all along, orwhether it's just kind of how it
happened or it was an accident.
But people have changed right.
So if you look at, you know, soyou know, baby boom, you know,
(19:11):
my wife says we're not babyboomers, but we are.
We're born in 63 and 64.
So you know, the baby boomer isway different than the Gen X,
which is way different than themillennial, which is way
different than the current groupwas Gen Z, and there's no way
(19:50):
that the academy could havemaintained the way that they
were doing things as thesegenerations shifted.
Mm-hmm, alive still would say,oh, you know, your plea beer was
nothing compared to ours.
You know, you guys were softbecause a lot of the stuff that
happened in the old days wasjust a lot of really.
You know the kids hazing,physical abuse, all that type of
stuff, and really was that?
(20:11):
You mean that stuff's not goingto fly right now.
But was that stuff necessaryfor the crucible?
Right, because now if they said, hey, we're not going to have
any physical standards anymore,that would not be.
You know that crucible is stillthere.
Hey, we're not a credit, youknow we don't.
We're kind of a glorifiedcommunity college.
(20:31):
We're not accredited anymore.
So so the academics, that's nota crucible.
That stuff is still there.
You still have to wear auniform, you still have to Again
, not the bad stuff doesn'thappen at Bancroft Hall, but
it's not allowed and if you getcaught you get hammered so
that's it.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
It still sucks.
Being on restrictions stillsucks.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
I'll tell you what although even that's gotten a
little bit less you could.
They got a little communityservice stuff you can do now.
So so, to answer your question,yeah, some of the more tactical
specific things are different.
And I just had a greatopportunity one of my mentees as
(21:14):
a squad leader this summer andI got an opportunity to talk to
a couple company worth of plebesabout 60 plebes and you know
and we got to kind of talk about, you know, what the whole kind
of purpose of this is and reallythe in the old days again
missions.
So if you fail, that was likeokay, you're gone, now it's okay
, you fail, that's okay, it'sokay to fail, but let's, let's,
(21:39):
let's try to make sure you thatdoesn't happen again now if you
continue to fail then, we, thenmaybe this isn't the right place
for you, sure, but if you'retrying to figure it out, if
you're, you've got life.
You know these are 18, 19, 20year old kids.
If they have life skill issues,we need to help them with that.
Sure, again, with the guy thatcouldn't make it in the summer
(22:02):
of 1982, would he have been atremendous naval officer?
Maybe and I think so the flipside is we missed.
Maybe we missed out on a lot ofreally good people.
Sure, because we ran people outwho couldn't figure it out.
Or are we graduating a fewpeople that maybe shouldn't, but
we're getting people who?
(22:22):
You know what I'm saying.
You're always going to eithergetting rid of people you
shouldn't have got rid of ormaybe graduating a few people
that maybe shouldn't havegraduated.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Interesting.
That's a fascinatingperspective and kind of what
I'll almost tailor this nextpiece of your answer to, which
is after studying a ton of eliteorganizations and your flexion
on the Naval Academy from yourtime to today's in generation,
how do you even begin to measurewhether a crucible experience
(22:51):
has actually worked?
What indicators do we show thatthe Naval Academy's crucible
experience is producing theleaders that America needs and
that we're not, you know,missing out on?
Too many people are now, atthis point, maybe producing too
many who don't actually for lackof a better term, I don't, I
don't know that deserve is theright word, but like, maybe
(23:12):
shouldn't have made it through.
But how do we, how do wemeasure success in that, in the
success of a crucible event?
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Well, I think you I I mean the customer is the fleet,
right.
So I think you know when youlook at what's really
interesting in your class of 17,right, okay?
So you know, your, your, yourpeers are still in our, you know
, senior lieutenants and but 10years from now they're going to
(23:39):
be, you know, you know, incommand and then 10 years after
that they're going to startmaking flag and all this stuff
and you're going to say, did youhear so?
And so made flag?
What that guy used to get drunkon the car every Saturday night
.
So there's a lot, you know.
Obviously there's a lot ofAcademy people out there and
(24:03):
from the feedback that I getfrom you know, and really my
class, very few are on still onactive duty.
I mean Jim Kilby, who's theacting CNO, he's one of them,
but we just have a small handful.
But at one time my class hadfifth, sixth and seventh fleet
(24:24):
handful.
But at one time my class hadfifth, sixth and seventh fleet.
Uh, and if you talk to them,hey, the academy, the academy,
you know, officers that you knowcome out either.
Marine corps and the navy sideare doing great things.
And if we, if we get into asituation where it is.
Again, I think if you're a, youknow, if you're a captain, you
don't really care how someone'splea of year was.
Hey, can I trust you as alieutenant JG, as officer of the
(24:47):
deck, so I can get some sleepwhen we're in the middle of the
ocean, no one else cares, no onecares about the crucible, and
that's really what the deal is.
Can you answer the bell as anorganization?
Really, what the deal can youanswer the bell?
Can you, you know, as anorganization?
And really, until you getfeedback that, hey, you know, I
don't know what about the classof fill in the blank?
(25:08):
But, yeah, you know, I hadeight of them, show you know,
four of them showed up to myship and I, none of them could
qualify and I had to.
Just, they had to all separatethem for the navy.
Well then, that's a problem, butI'm not hearing that.
And and I don't hear that, yeah, you know, every academy grad
goes down to Pensacola fails outof flight school.
Not hearing that, I'm nothearing about, hey, everybody
(25:29):
that goes down to TBS, we can'tget any Marines.
Every everyer conflict withChina, which I still, I think a
lot of people are predictingthat I'm not in that camp and
(25:49):
that's obviously.
That's a Paul Becker discussion.
If we did have some sort ofconflict like that and the Naval
Academy people, officers outthere did not perform as good or
better than the OCS and Nazipeople, then I think you would
(26:10):
have a problem because we're ina very austere budget
environment and it costs a lotof money to Naval Academy is not
cheap.
I mean, there's a lot ofoverhead.
I mean there's a lot.
I mean NAAA pays for itself, butyou got all the military people
there, you got the faculty, yougot the staff and the
infrastructure.
I mean it's expensive to youknow, if somebody leaves.
(26:33):
I think they tag the number at$250,000 or something, and I
don't know where they get thatnumber from, but it's a lot of
money.
So I think for the NavalAcademy in the future, you have
to make sure there's a return oninvestment.
Or you know, hey, why do wehave the Naval Academy when we
had this war with China that welost and all the Naval Academy
people that didn't do very well?
(26:54):
That, I think, will be a toughconversation to have.
Hopefully it won't happen.
I don't think it will happen,but that, I think, is where to
answer your question in aroundabout way.
That's where people are goingto question the crucible if
we're not successful.
And then I guess the littletangent aside is, with the new
superintendent coming in, afirst Marine, everybody's very
(27:15):
interested to see what's goingto happen with that.
Sure.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah, it kind of goes back to what you said, which is
that the crucible will changewith the people Right and if the
, if the, the avatar of thepeople in the kind of the most
senior leadership positionshifts again.
Like how does that affect theorganization and and the
crucible.
So really, really, reallyinteresting and fascinating
stuff.
I appreciate your insight there.
(27:40):
The kind of next piece that Ido want to talk about is we keep
on mentioning this crucibleevent and a lot of the stuff in
the book.
The Marine Corps is their13-week boot camp.
You have a lot of differentstuff.
That's kind of a shorter timeframe.
How does it apply to the NavalAcademy?
Because we've talked aboutreally Plebe Summer being a
crucible event, but also reallyPlebe Year, and then we go back
(28:02):
and talk about well, really it'sactually the academic crucible
and the physical crucible.
That kind of goes all fouryears.
Does it ever end?
Like, what is the?
How would you actually definethe true Naval Academy crucible
event?
Or can it be crucible within acrucible, almost
crucible-ception?
How are we kind of likedefining that and how does it
(28:22):
relate to the Naval Academyorganization?
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Okay, yeah, good question.
So I think the way I would lookat it is is it's, it's a daily
grind and you can, you know,it's not just about the exams,
it's not just about the physicalreadiness test, it just isn't
about summer training, it's theand you obviously went through
(28:45):
it.
Uh, it's the day to day stuff.
It's and and it's not the bigstuff, it's the little stuff.
And one of the things when Ilook at elite organizations,
most organizations out therelet's pick fast food.
If you go to any fast foodrestaurant, they're going to be
(29:06):
able to prepare food, give it toyou, accept payment, and most
people, most fast food places,can do that.
Well, what makes Chick-fil-A sounique?
Because they do the littlestuff right.
They're fast, they're courteous, the places are always spotless
(29:28):
right.
So one of the things that I'veobserved is that most people can
do the big stuff, but reallytruly elite people and elite
organizations do the littlestuff.
And I would say the little stuffat the academy is just dealing
with the day-to-day grind.
And how do I, you know, justpick a snapshot in time.
Hey, I've got a forestall, I'vegot a forestall.
(29:49):
I've got a big test tomorrow,but there's a forestall lecture,
right, I've got, you know, I, I, I have a, uh, I, I, you know,
pull the muscle, but I've got todo the prt tomorrow.
Uh, you know, I'm down it.
I'm down at leatherneck doingmy marine training and we
haven't been around here.
It's been super, super hotlately, right, they've got to be
(30:11):
absolutely, you know, it's gotto be really rough on them.
So it's that day-to-day stuffand I think what the academy
does, not necessarily on purpose, and maybe it is on purpose
because, again, you have the bigstuff, but can you just deal
with the day-to-day today-to-day stuff, right?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
and it is a grind the daily grind.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
And the other thing is I think the Academy still
does a great job of if you havea weakness, the Academy is going
to find it, they're going toexploit it and it's okay to have
that a weakness we all haveweaknesses but if you're not
able to fix that weakness andaddress that weakness, you're
not going to be successful.
If you cannot figure out how topass STEM classes, you're not
(30:55):
going to.
You're just not going to besuccessful.
If you can't, if you're justnot a good runner and you can't
figure out a way to pass the runof the PRT, you're you're not
going to be successful.
And you know it could besomething as hey, I need to pass
this, I didn't study for thistest and I want to have, I don't
want to be on sack because Idon't want to lose my weekends.
(31:16):
And man, it's really temptingright now to look at my neighbor
Grant's paper because I knowhe's super smart, he's probably
got the right answers.
Man, it's really tempting tolook over and take a look and
and check out that answer,something as small as that, and
having the discipline and thatgrind to say nope, I'm going to
the myths, say fail with honor,I'm going to fail with honor.
(31:37):
And it's just the little,little little stuff that happens
every single day.
It's just, and that's why it's.
You see Naval Academy, people goout.
You know, obviously successfulin the military.
But you know, and you're aLinkedIn guy, look at all the
famous and you know successfulpeople on LinkedIn and that's
(31:57):
just life Right and you know so.
So it's good preparation.
I mean, the Naval Academy isway better preparation for for
being adulting, as the kidswould say that it is going to
San Diego state and party RightCause you've got to be present
every single day.
You've got to be successfulevery single day, and really
that's the crucible.
(32:18):
That's really what it's allabout being successful in a lot
of different things, battlingthrough your adversity, battling
through the things that youaren't that good at, but doing
it every single day.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that framing.
I think it's a great answer.
It's something that I alwaystalk about again on this
platform and just in general,which is that the Naval Academy
is going to make you someone whohandles the hard moments of
life better, like the dailygrind better, just because
you've done it, because you knowhow to adjust to it, you know
how to adapt to it and just workthrough it, and I think it's a
(32:52):
great framing of, like the NavalAcademy Crucible experience.
I think that's really cool andit's something that goes for me
every day and I do appreciatethat.
Shout out If you are someone,follow me on LinkedIn.
I love it, always there, alwaysposting.
So thanks for that, since youbrought it up.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
I mean, you're a perfect example of that.
You, you do a ton of things.
You're super engaged, you'reyou know, you're the epitome of
the.
You know, if you want somethingdone, give it to the busiest
person.
You know, and you make it lookreally, really easy.
I get tired just reading yourlinkedin posts because of all
(33:26):
the different stuff that you do,but the thing that really
really impresses me about yougrant and I'm gonna say this
appreciate, you know publicly iseverything you do.
It's always for other people,right, I mean, the academy
insider is not you talking aboutyour basketball career, right?
Although you'd probably love toto do every single podcast
(33:47):
talking about?
Speaker 1 (33:49):
in my dad's office with the jersey behind.
Just yeah, just casually, rightbut it's not.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
And for somebody of your age to be so devoted to
other people in service, it'sreally inspiring and I like to
think that that at this stage ofmy life, at 61 and semi-retired
, you know I'm I'm giving back,I think a little bit uh, but for
you, at your stage of the game,all that you give back I I mean
you, you know a year in yourlife is way more than most
(34:15):
people do their entire lives.
So I, you know, I thank you andI appreciate everything that
you do for so many people.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
That's, I'm humbled, without like thank you, that's
really kind.
I just, you know the NavalAcademy, the crucible experience
for me, was verytransformational, right, like I
think I probably had one of themore polarizing experiences and
so that's kind of led me to this, to this path, right, and it's
something that even though.
Right the letter, the letterhome.
(34:43):
I hate this freaking place.
Get me out of here now.
Dude, like what did I do?
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Your mom saved that obviously.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Oh, it's framed in the house.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Is it really?
Oh, she'll never let me live itdown.
She'll never let me live it down, you know, and that's what I,
you know, that's what I tried totell the, that's what I tried
to tell the pleads on Monday.
I said you know, I said you,everybody's here for different
(35:16):
reasons.
Okay, don't be intimidatedbecause you don't.
Your reason is as good assomeone else, it doesn't really
matter.
Right, everybody has differentreasons for coming.
You're here now, and that nowit's about getting you know.
Getting you, you know, gettingto a point where you can leave
right, you know doing everythingyou can before you graduate to
make yourself the best you can.
And hey, if you're strugglingright now and you're failing,
that's part of it, that's thewhole thing.
And if you go in and I thinkthey got it because a couple of
(35:38):
kids chime in, you know you wantto fail now because that's,
this is a low risk.
No one's going to get killed ifyou fail at the as the Naval
Academy.
But now in the fleet, peopledie, right, people die and
people get hurt and equipmentgets ruined, et cetera, et
cetera, et cetera.
So for someone to say you knowwhat, I went through the Naval
(36:00):
Academy, I didn't fail atanything any time I would be
really worried.
I would be really worriedbecause the other thing, not
only you're not fixing somethings.
I've seen people who haven'tbeen successful because they
haven't figured out how to fail.
And if you don't know how tofail, then you get failure.
Then what?
Here come the failure.
(36:20):
Not me, not me, not me.
I think the Academy could do abetter job of explaining why
things happen there, even thingsthat kind of seem dumb.
And why are we doing this?
Because it's an opportunity toput you under stress and an
(36:47):
opportunity for you to fail in avery maybe high stress for your
POV point of view, but low risk.
You know, chow calls, chowcalls.
You know, if your audiencedoesn't know it's 10 minutes and
five minutes for formation,please do it.
They scream out a bunch ofinformation.
You know where the formation is,the uniform, all this different
(37:10):
information and people.
You know, oh well, I've, Igotta do a chow call.
This is so dumb.
Well, the reason a chow call isimportant is because and your
wife would, I think, say this,as she's flying around her
helicopter, something happens inher helicopter, god forbid.
She has to understand, no,those emergency procedures, has
(37:30):
to recall them, has thoseemergency procedures, has to
recall them, has to say them outloud to her co-pilot and they
can't look it up, they can'tGoogle it and that's a little
bit of stress, right, if you'reflying around and something
happens.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
I'll tell you what her and I we spent our date
nights for a good year and ahalf.
Was her going through her EPswith me on the couch, right Like
we said, eps, emergencyprocedures right Like.
Because if something happens,there's no pulling out the
booklet, right no, pulling outreef points right Like.
If something happens.
If that indicator shows awarning failure, then she needs
(38:03):
to take immediate action.
She needs to know exactly whatshe's doing to save this, save
the helicopter, right.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Absolutely, and so, yeah, so there is value in
learning how to learn somethingthat maybe you're not familiar
with, be able to memorize it,then regurgitate it under a
stressful environment, and ifyou have three people standing
around you waiting for you tochoke and you choke and you get
(38:29):
yelled at or whatever, thenthat's a failure that we want to
happen now, not when you're outon deployment, flying out of
flying a 60 helicopter heck yeahand but we?
but academy doesn't do a goodjob of explaining that not only
to the police but to all themen's.
Sure, and some get it, but, butyou know, for formations you
(38:49):
now I'm going to get on mysoapbox, but formation is
another thing, you know.
It's viewed as formation isviewed, as you know, irritant.
And why do I have to do thisand why can't I sleep in all of
a sudden?
Because formation is.
It builds that muscle memory ofmaking sure you know where your
(39:09):
people are at, of making sureyou know where your people are
at and when you're underway on aship and where's so-and-so.
Oh, I think I saw him in thehead.
Oh, okay, no, we need to citethat person.
They might have fallen off theship, right, and that's our
number one job as officers is totake care of our people, and
(39:32):
you can't take care of yourpeople if you don't know where
they're at.
So, yes, maybe the number offormations is excessive, okay,
that's fine.
But guess what, when you get onthe fleet, that will be so
drummed into your head thatyou'll never, ever forget it.
And if we start easing off onthis and now they have sleep ins
and sign ins and all this otherstuff.
I worry that we're losing thatmuscle memory, and that's how
(39:57):
bad things happen is when wedon't have 100% accountability
of people, and that's our job.
You can't take care of yourpeople that way.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Sure, yeah, no, it's.
I appreciate you saying allthat.
You know, it's something that,again, I like having the
opportunity, hopefully, to this.
You know, usually my audienceis really the families and the
parents, but get to articulatethat mission or like that
purpose to them, right, so theyunderstand it.
Because, again, I mentioned itand I got to speak at the
Welcome Abort event for theincoming families in Southern
(40:26):
California this past year and Imentioned, right like that day I
was supposed to fly out toVietnam to visit my wife on a
port visit the day previous.
We, you know again as aworrywart, I'm always just
looking at, you know, opensource, intelligent reports all
over the world.
Anyways, I see missile launchesgoing from Iran into Israel,
(40:47):
israel into Iran, right, and youknow, ship gets immediate
tasking.
They, they go all ahead, flankout their port visit canceled.
All this different stuff.
I know that my wife is is likelygoing towards war, right, and
you know, I know that she'sscared, I know that I'm scared,
I know that my family is scaredand her family's scared, but
(41:08):
kind of, the message to theplebes was like you know who
else is was like you know whoelse is scared, you know who
else is afraid.
Your sailors, her sailors,right, and the mom and dad of
those sailors, yes, and thewhole point of the Naval Academy
is going through that dailygrind, is going through all
those terrible things.
So you can not only handle yourown personal emotion and
(41:29):
afraidness, but take on theburden of theirs.
Yes, exactly, and so like thatis that is the point, that is
the purpose, like that is whywe're here, this is why we're
going through crucible events,so you can handle yourself and
take on the burden of the fearof others, right, and and lead
them and take care of them,right, it all comes back to
taking care of your people.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Yeah.
And last thing, as we wrap uphere I just had that exact
conversation again with theplebs is hey, you have to figure
you said it perfectly you haveto figure out how to take care
of your stuff so you can takecare of your sailors, and you
can't if their work isstruggling because they have a
(42:12):
family issue at home and theysay, oh well, my mom's sick.
Well, let me tell you about mymom and dad are both sick.
They're both in the hospital.
You think you got it bad, I gotit bad.
That's not the way it works andthat's building the warrior
ethos and resiliency of, yeah,taking this four years to where,
yeah, you go on emergency leave.
(42:32):
It's sad that you had apersonal tragedy or whatever,
but that's not an excuse just tofail all your classes.
That's not an excuse not to getout of bed, because you can't
do that.
When you're out at sea, noone's interested in what you
have going on and your troopsdefinitely don't want to hear it
.
In fact, real quick story Iwent out to the desert and I
(42:53):
replaced an Air Force 06.
And when I got there, my XO saidyou know, he really, really was
not liked because all he didwas complain about how much he
missed his family.
And everybody said we miss ourfamilies too.
Right, and this is an 06 whodidn't get that right.
(43:13):
So, as a leader, which is whatyou're going to be immediately,
that's what's so fun about beinga JO, right, you go as a leader
and you get your butt kicked ona daily basis, but you're
learning.
But, yeah, no one cares aboutyour stuff.
You've got to be locked in andhopefully again through the
crucible of the daily grind ofthe academy, you've learned how
(43:34):
to do that.
So when you get out there,you're ready to go.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Heck, yeah, I love it .
This episode is going to go outover Plebe Parents Weekend that
Sunday.
Any words to the parents andmaybe even the plebes who may be
listening about again.
I know we just talked aboutreally the power and importance
of these crucible events, butabout completing plebs summer
and getting ready to take on theacademic year.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Yeah, I guess to the plebs it's absolutely worth it.
It may not seem at the time,but there is a method to the
madness.
And so just, just again, justembrace.
You know they say, embrace thesuck, just just every single day
.
Realize there's probably 10people that wanted your spot and
any of them would trade placeswith you.
So just do your best and justunderstand that this is all part
(44:19):
of the plan.
And to the parents just supportthem, right, support them and
help them see the big picture.
And, you know, let them vent alittle bit.
You know, if you get a letterthat says I hate this place, you
know, take it with a grain ofsalt, frame it right, but don't
think that you've got to getinvolved.
You know, let them vent andthen support them and it's all
(44:41):
going to be okay.
And it really is alife-changing event to graduate
from the Naval Academy with notonly, you know, the alumni and
the and the bond that you havewith other classes, but you know
we've got our 43 union comingup next fall, uh, and you're
going to, we're going to, I'mgoing to see people I haven't
seen in 25 years and I'm goingto hug them like I saw him
yesterday, and you don't getthat experience from any other
(45:05):
school, so I would tell them tohang in there.
It's worth it.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Jim, thank you so much for being here.
I appreciate it, love itEveryone.
Again, if you want to readabout these stories and how it
relates to the Naval Academy, gocheck out the brand new book
crucibles.
We really appreciate it.
Thanks for your time today.
You bet.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Have a good day everyone.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode of the Academy
insider podcast.
I really hope you liked it,enjoyed it and learned something
during this time.
If you did, please feel free tolike and subscribe or leave a
comment about the episode.
We really appreciate to hearyour feedback about everything
and continue to make AcademyInsider an amazing service that
(45:45):
guides, serves and supportsmidshipmen, future midshipmen
and their families.
Thank you.
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