May 6, 2024 • 32 mins
The episode takes a turn as we confront the reality of firing an employee—a challenge that tests the alignment of personal compassion with a company's core values. We discuss the broader impact these decisions have on the team and the delicate nature of delivering difficult news.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ira (00:41):
Well, welcome back.
You've been at the WesternVeterinary Conference in Las
Vegas for a little bit.
How did that all go, Stacee?
Stacee (00:50):
It went good.
It was super busy.
I was there from Sunday toThursday.
So if you don't like it, that'sa long time.
Ira (01:00):
Twice as long as the limit.
Stacee (01:02):
I do love it, so it wasn't that bad.
But, man, I was way busier thanI thought I would be.
I met with a lot of emergingfounders and want to be founders
, and so that was really fun andyou can start to kind of see I
don't know like I'm starting topick up on who's really
(01:23):
passionate for real, for real,real, and who's kind of trying
to, you know, make a dollar,which they don't have to be
mutually exclusive, but Idefinitely like enjoy being
around the people more that havelike this passionate idea.
Ira (01:40):
For sure.
I think there's nothing wrongwith being ambitious, about
creating a successful andprofitable business, but my
sense and experience is that thepeople that do that the best
are the ones that care a lotabout a problem, that they think
they have an idea that willsolve it they have an idea that
(02:08):
will solve it.
Stacee (02:08):
Yeah, and like, not like a big, I asked.
I would ask the people I metwhat's your main goal here, what
are you really trying to do?
And if it's make money, I canlive with that.
But they'll say something hugelike make sure no animal is ever
in pain.
Again.
I'm like, "oh god, come on, getreal
Ira (02:26):
It just comes off as inauthentic, even if they
genuinely mean it.
I have been doing some work totry to help spin up a company
that would be focused onveterinary oncology therapy and,
and I said, you know, I, Ican't be the guy that's going to
say that I'm starting thiscompany because I don't want any
(02:47):
pet to ever die of cancer, like, of course that's what I want,
right, it's obvious just feelsinauthentic and sets you up for
for you could do something greatand you're still a failure
because you didn't achieve this.
(03:08):
You know unrealistic set ofgoals I suppose there's, you
know, some people that you lookat that set these crazy
unrealistic goals and achievethem, but that is, you know, the
fraction of a fraction of apercent sort of sort of people.
And I am not quite so arrogantto think that I'm in that
fraction of a fraction of apercent.
I might be close, but I'm notquite there.
Stacee (03:29):
Well, I did want to tell you about one of my sessions.
Ira (03:33):
Oh yes.
Stacee (03:34):
I did this hour session called Stop Acting Like a Girl -
Six Tips for Women to beSuccessful in Business, and it's
based on this blog I wrote, youknow, I don't know four or five
years ago and it's just alwayssomething I've thought about
when I look at my team both inmy clinic and at Vet2Pet were
(03:54):
women.
But then when I had to work toyou know, advance, my company
and I'm doing things like PIMS,integration deals and raising
money deals and selling it it'sall men and I started to see
like these differences in theway we behave and there are
(04:15):
things that I think women do,that we're born with or we're
trained to be, that roll overinto this professional zone and
kind of sabotage ourselves.
So I wrote this blog and Idecided to do a presentation on
it and I'll just tell you thefirst thing that happened to me
is like a day before I waspresenting several people, I
(04:37):
told the title to sort ofcringed when I said it's, stop
acting like a girl and one guywas like are we allowed to say
the word girl?
And I felt kind of bad for himbecause he's obviously been beat
down.
And then some of my girlfriendsare like I don't know this
could be dicey for you.
Ira (04:55):
When I was growing up, right Like that would be
something that a bad coach wouldsay to like one of the guys on
the team if they weren't actingtough enough right, and so I
guess that phrase could be sortof triggering for some people
and some audiences in a way thatI'm sure you did not intend.
Stacee (05:14):
But, Ira, there was like two or 300 women in the room
and I went through my tips.
I also shared my no-nonsense,foolproof methodology to get a
raise.
And then I opened the floor tocomments because I had about 10
or 15 minutes still availablefor the audience and they just
(05:35):
started sharing so much.
It was crazy.
Like one girl said, when shegoes into her board meetings or
her CEO room, she's not the CEO.
She said she isn't very wellliked because she goes against
the grain a little and providesa different perspective and she
(05:56):
feels like she isn't verypopular.
But yet afterwards people texther and thank her for saying
what they didn't say and she'slike here I am struggling, I
want to be liked so much, butyet if I'm being authentic in my
true self, I'm bucking thesystem and I don't know what to
do and I'm like, oh, you keepdoing it.
(06:18):
And they just kept sharingstories like this.
It was crazy.
Like 80% of the workforce ormore is women, but the top is
men.
Ira (06:29):
Yeah, it reminds me of.
I have this friend who has thissaying that I love and hate,
which is she says you know,women can do anything as long as
there's not a white male thatalso wants to do that thing and
can do it half as well.
Stacee (06:46):
Yeah, exactly, I don't know what I'm going to do with
this.
I feel like, oh no, I have tohelp other women, but I don't
know how.
Ira (06:54):
That's a great cause and I think a lot of people will
appreciate it.
Stacee (06:57):
Okay, well, let's get into it today.
Ira (07:16):
The question is what was your most challenging firing?
So I'll go first.
So I think I might need tochange some names just for
people's anonymity.
But when I came back intopracticing veterinary medicine,
(07:36):
started my practice, I hadreally only been a radiation
oncologist for about a yearbefore I stopped practicing and
went to work in a research labfor about five years, and so
when I came back I was I'mextremely fortunate to be
working at a clinic that had avery, very experienced radiation
(07:58):
oncology technician and shehelped me so much.
All the little things that Iwould sort of forget, she would
kind of remind me of, and all ofthe details that you kind of
need to worry about related tojust kind of running a day in
(08:18):
the clinic and treating patientsshe would take care of and she
would almost just kind of likewalk me through.
Like you know here's the nextthing you got to go off to and
don't forget this and was justan exceptional friend, mentor,
uh, co--worker, you know all ofthe things and we worked
(08:41):
together for quite a few yearsand I was opening another clinic
about 100 miles south and hadhired a new radiation oncologist
to go work there and needed agood radiation oncology
(09:01):
technician to go run that clinicand I trusted this person knew
they were great and thought I'vegot this great idea, like let's
have her go down there.
Not that I don't need heranymore, but I don't need her as
much anymore and she canhopefully be as great of a
(09:22):
resource to.
You know this newly mintedradiation oncologist that's
going to try to start up thisnew clinic, as she's been to me
and be a great opportunity forher, great for this new practice
, and so we got her to agree tothis plan.
She moved with her husband, youknow, to another city and um
(09:44):
and started up and for just avariety of reasons that in
retrospect maybe I could havepredicted, but at the time just
never even dawned on me likejust was not the right fit to
work with that new doctor.
Stacee (10:00):
And so the two people had a personality clash?
Ira (10:04):
I would say, you know, personality and just
professionally, like they justweren't a good fit to work
together and and this was a bigproblem and you know, obviously
we tried to work through it, it,but it became clear that like
this just wasn't working and weultimately had to make a
decision to say this wasn'tworking, like somebody's not
(10:29):
going to be able to continuehere, and it was an impossible
decision because it can takeyears to hire a veterinary
radiation oncologist and there'snobody that has the amount of
experience in sort of thisradiation oncology technician
role.
But you can train othertechnicians to do it and you
(10:52):
know it's just this impossiblething.
But made the decision toterminate that position and
probably the hardestconversation I've ever had right
was to sort of sit down andhave to let this person become a
very, very close personalfriend as well as kind of this
extraordinarily valued, you knowcolleague and mentor, and to
(11:14):
say you know I'm really sorry,but we're going, and and to say
you know I'm really sorry, butwe're gonna have to let you go
and, um, you know, sort ofreflect on all of the really fun
times and things that we, youknow, did together.
Like she she literally gave meunderwear as my secret santa for
sort of the work holiday, likeyou know we were pretty close
(11:34):
and and to sort of have to gothrough this and um and let her
go, and you know she reallyhadn't done anything wrong per
se, um, but you know she and wejust weren't able to sort of
navigate this conflict and youknow always have had a bit of
(11:54):
regret about that.
I think we're still, we'refriendly, but we're not really
in frequent contact anymore andI feel like I lost an important
and close friend that's now moreof, unfortunately, an
acquaintance and ultimately Idon't know if it was even really
(12:15):
the best thing for the practice, I think for that reason and
others, the the radiationoncologist that that was there
ultimately ended up moving on toanother opportunity not too
long after that and and so wewere still back in sort of we
need to find somebody and that'sgoing to take a long time.
So, um, that was super tough.
(12:36):
I still ask myself sometimes ifwe really made the right
decision there and was, uh, youknow that was the worst.
Stacee (12:45):
That sounds so traumatic .
Did you offer her to go back tothe original practice?
But I mean, it was alreadyanother she couldn't.
Ira (12:54):
I knew she couldn't like she bought out, she bought a
house, but I mean, it wasalready another.
Stacee (12:59):
Oh no
Ira (13:04):
That's, and you know I worried about things that maybe
shouldn't have been my problembut there weren't other
radiation oncology clinics thatwere nearby and sort of worried
about her ability to do thethings that she loved to do and
was great at doing.
Stacee (13:17):
Wow.
And what happened to her?
Did she move on to bigger andbetter things, or do you even
know?
Ira (13:24):
Yeah, no, she did.
She did end up moving on tobeing a internal medicine
technician, which I think sheliked, although she wasn't't if
she was sort of elite right,there aren't many people like
her in my field, and that'sgained from many, many years of
(13:44):
doing it, and so in some ways Iimagine that she had to start
over a little bit, althoughcertainly some of those skills
are very translatable.
Stacee (13:52):
It's so hard because my first firing like you I was in
this predicament of I reallyliked the person a lot
personally.
I enjoyed working with them,they did a pretty good job at
their job.
But I ultimately had to choosewhat was best for the business.
(14:14):
And I remember grappling withthis dilemma like is my purpose
to be, you know, for the people,only individual people, or is
my role to grow and scale thisbusiness for the greater good,
which is really what I had setout to do?
And so sometimes they don't gotogether, and that was actually
(14:39):
the struggle I had with my firstfiring.
Ira (14:43):
You still in touch with that person, or did you no?
Stacee (14:46):
No, it burned bad.
You know, we're starting togrow the team.
We hired a few more people andwe're starting to really grow.
And I felt a need one day towrite down our core values in
such a way that we're like,really, this is how it works
around here.
These are the things I reallycare about, Because I felt like
(15:07):
if there'd been a couple littleissues where I'd had to sit
people down and say, hey, wedon't really do it like that
here.
So I pushed it, pushed me tothink about how do I want this
place to look and what isimportant, Because the reason I
left my other job one of thereasons was because it got
really catty and it got really.
(15:29):
You know, vet clinics can bethis way, um front of the house
versus the back of the house andyou're overworked and you're
tired and cranky and it's abunch of, honestly, women.
Ira (15:40):
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Stacee (15:43):
It can be a tough world to be in.
So I wrote down what I call.
I didn't call it core values, Icalled it " manifesto of And
one day I sat down and I wrotedown these are the things I care
about.
These are the lines not tocross that will get you fired
around.
Here was how I presented it, andnumber one was honesty.
(16:06):
Like I just have zero tolerancefor lying and being respectful
of others, not talking aboutpeople behind their back.
These were some of the thingsthat I said.
These are non-negotiable lines.
If you cross them, you're out,and I presented it to every new
hire and at that point, all thepeople that are on my team and
(16:29):
I'm like I get it if you can'tagree to this.
So if you can't, you shouldleave now.
Then one day what happens is wecatch my sweet 20 something year
old in a very blatant lie.
So I fired her and I told heryou crossed the line and that's
that.
And it sucks so bad becausenone of us knew how to do our
(16:53):
job and we really valued her andshe was 99% an amazing person
to be around.
That one little percent reallywas the only issue, but I felt
so terrible Ira just sick at mystomach for a long time that I
(17:13):
changed the trajectory of thisperson's life.
Or perhaps she did it toherself, but I had to hold the
line.
This is my pet peeve, like ifyou're going to have core values
(17:33):
and you don't hold the line.
Ira (17:36):
You know that any decisions that sort of have consequences
from.
There is, you know that's notyou causing, you know some
dramatic change of course ofsomebody's life.
In all likelihood those are, umare highly complex outcomes
(17:59):
that you're only one small pieceof.
Stacee (18:01):
The person I ended up putting in the role, another 20
something young, up and comingwoman is flourishing so much and
she is really climbed theladder at the company that I
sold that to pet to.
And I actually met with herboss's boss now in Vegas and she
specifically called out thisperson Kylee McCoy is her name
(18:25):
and said how amazing this personis and where did I find her.
So you know, these littledecisions, they make a big
difference in ways you might notthink about.
Ira (18:38):
Sure, Let me ask you something a little bit different
about firing, since it's such afun topic.
So, yeah, I've talked to lotsof people that have been fired
and one of the things I oftenhear from them is you know, it's
not so bad that I got fired,but it's the way that I got
(19:01):
fired that I'm upset about,Right?
And yeah, I've really tried tothink through like is there you
know a better way or keylearnings, pieces of advice
related to how to handle thosethings, Because I feel like more
often than not, people walkaway with this perception that,
you know, I feel like Iunderstand that maybe this had
(19:23):
to happen, but I just feel likeit should have been handled
better.
Stacee (19:27):
Oh yeah, the first few firings I did at the vet clinic
were horrible and I think thebig difference I came to
discover there's two parts.
One is it's like kind of theway you actually break bad news
to a client when their pet isdying or going to die.
There's like this warm up partof the brain where you can't
(19:49):
just blurt it out.
You have to say something likeI have some bad news to share, I
have something that's going tobe difficult for you to hear.
Like just that one phrase helpsthem get a jolt of endorphins
to help them receive the news,them get a jolt of endorphins to
help them receive the news.
But prior to that, it's thelead up to the firing.
That I think is the problem.
(20:09):
And many leaders or managers,they have all these irritations
or issues with the employee intheir head that they haven't
effectively communicated withthe employee.
Because it's hard, it'sdifficult, you don't know how to
say it and oftentimes it's verygray instead of super direct.
Like hey, you're not doing thispart right and if you don't
(20:30):
start doing it right, like we'regoing to have a tough challenge
in front of us because I've gotto have you do it this one way.
You've got to not cause drama.
You've got to, you know, tellthe truth, whatever it is.
So I think sometimes we putpeople in situations where we
think they should just know whatthe rules of the game are and
(20:51):
then when they cross the line,they don't know they crossed the
line and maybe you aren'teffective at telling them that
they crossed the line.
So I think if you fire someone,well, they see it coming, and I
think when it hurts the most iswhen they didn't see it coming.
What do you think?
Ira (21:07):
I think that is frequently the case.
I think there are, of coursethere's a lot of different
reasons why people get let go.
I think your point is welltaken when there are performance
or behavior issues that sort oflead people down that road.
I think another reason whypeople are frequently terminated
(21:28):
is when a business has a littlebit of a shift in direction or
focus or needs to shiftresources from one area to
another or is running intofinancial crunches where, in
order to do something that'sreally important for the
business, they need to make thatsomewhere and for a variety of
reasons.
(21:48):
It's very hard for leaders inthose circumstances to kind of
give people a lot of warningthat their job or their
department may be at risk, andthen they are in the position of
having to essentially laypeople off without really having
them have a lot of warning thatsomething like that was coming.
Stacee (22:07):
It's not the fault of the employee, it's the fault of
the business.
Ira (22:12):
I think that, from a kind of dispassionate person that
thinks about how businesses growand evolve, I think there's
something that's potentiallyvery healthy about businesses at
certain stages needing to sortof hire a lot of people to build
something fast and, you know,figure things out and try to
grow, but you know, eventuallyneeds to identify, like, how it
(22:36):
can do that, you know,efficiently, scalably,
profitably.
And that requires efficiently,scalably, profitably, and that
requires aspects of kind oftrimming down on that.
And so that makes sense to mefrom sort of dispassionate,
organizational kind ofdevelopment perspective.
(22:57):
But from a personal perspectiveit takes real people, people,
lives, and you know, essentiallycasualties of circumstances
that are not their fault oroutside of their control.
And yeah, I, the way I sort ofthink about it is, you know,
there are times when everybodymaybe in the business might care
(23:17):
a lot about the people in thebusiness but the business itself
doesn't end or can't actuallycare about people Right and um,
and that's, I think, a harshreality that maybe some people
never have to learn, but manypeople learn at some point in
time and and it's pretty painful.
Stacee (23:38):
Oh, it's so crushing.
So I know that Vetsource, whereI sold my company, they had a
big layoff like a year ago.
And from watching that from theoutside, what I think is
twofold the things that could bedone better at this level of
(23:59):
the game.
One is when you hire someone,maybe it's worth saying we are
in growth mode and we have totell you no job is safe.
There could be pivots on thiscompany.
We could make strategic changesand it wouldn't be out of the
norm if we lay people off hereand there as we grow.
(24:20):
So the message know, themessage you're trying to convey
is make yourself as valuable aspossible to this team.
But the other is I think a lotof high level executives and HR
people think that the kindestway is to just a sharp cut and
get you like just sharp and lessbleeding with this.
(24:45):
But I think they need a warmup.
I think they need to.
The team needs to know like,even if it's one day, hey, we
are in a board meeting, we arehaving some difficult
conversations because thefinancials aren't where we need
them and we're going to becoming out with some hard news
in the next few days or we losta major account and this is
(25:07):
going to change the way weoperate around here.
We can't make the numbers work.
We're trying, but everyoneneeds to brace for impact and I
know they hate doing thatbecause it causes undue or
anticipatory anxiety for a lotof people.
But isn't that better than justa swift cut and instantly all
(25:30):
the people that were cut aregone.
Their emails are shut off.
You can't slack them anymore.
You don't even know exactly whogot cut because they don't
publish that list.
Don't even know exactly who gotcut because they don't publish
that list.
That can be more stressful forthe people.
Ira (25:48):
They don't trust you anymore.
It can be extremely awkward, um, like you don't know what to do
.
You know, my, my instinct isalways like, oh, I really want
to call so-and-so, and you know,see how they're doing and
express my you know remorse fortheir circumstance, right, um,
(26:09):
but all of the HR people willtell you like, oh, that you
absolutely can't do, that,that's the worst possible thing
you can do, and I don't reallyunderstand it.
Uh, I sort of understand it,but I I feel like it is a bit
misplaced in terms of being kindof a foundational principle of
(26:30):
how people are supposed tohandle these things.
Stacee (26:32):
Yeah, it's cold hearted and maybe that's to your point
the organization has no feelings.
Hey, listeners, we'd love tohear what you think about this.
So please go over to LinkedIn,if you're on there, and go to
the Accidental Entrepreneurs andshare your thoughts.
First off, how do you think youshould fire someone or do
(26:55):
layoffs, and also tell us aboutthe first time you had to fire
someone.
We'd love to hear your storytoo.
Ira (27:02):
Well, I think we are reaching that moment where we
are to share a resource, wordsof wisdom, maybe a influential
(27:26):
mentor or person that's helpedyou along the way, so why don't
you go first, Stacee?
Stacee (27:37):
Okay, my tip of the day is a payroll software called
Gusto.
I have a question.
Ira (27:40):
Sorry to interrupt you.
I've struggled with this a lot.
Is it gusto, or is it gustoLike English or Spanish?
I don't really know, maybe itshould be gusto because you know
that's a better meaning.
Stacee (28:11):
I didn't really know how to do payroll taxes or payroll.
The whole thing is verycomplicated for me to understand
and I was thrilled when Idiscovered this software and
they do everything for you andeach employee has their own
portal and they can see theirW-2 and all their history of
raises, and it's a delightfulcompany.
Ira (28:31):
Great.
I've had good experiences thereas well, and at my startup we
switched at some point to usingwhat I think was called a PPO, a
professional payroll operator.
I probably got that wrong, butessentially they kind of take
(28:53):
over everything related toemployment.
So, technically, your employeesthey're sort of co-employed,
they're paid by.
So, technically, your employeesare, you know, they're sort of
co-employed, they're, they'repaid by.
Their paychecks come from acompany with a different name
than yours, but they work foryou and kind of at at your terms
and service and they take overall the benefits as a result and
you pay for it.
(29:14):
Like it's a much moresignificant expense than using a
great resource like Gusto was.
Stacee (29:19):
I want to tell you real quick about this podcast you
have to listen to, called Queenof the Con.
Okay she is this evilbookkeeper that proclaims to be
a CPA, that targets smallstartups, small businesses, and
does their payroll for them, andshe has the people write their
(29:40):
um taxes to their well there'spayroll taxes and an income tax.
And she has the people writetheir taxes to their well
there's payroll taxes and anincome tax.
And she has them write alltheir checks to income tax
payments.
And she had a bank accountcalled Income Tax Payments that
was the name of her companyDBA'd with the Bank of America
and swindled millions of dollarsfrom like a dozen different.
Ira (30:03):
And it's just like a horror story.
Or is this like nonfiction?
Stacee (30:07):
It is a nonfiction horror story.
It's called Queen of the Con.
It's season two.
Ira (30:12):
I'm not going to get into this is.
Even just hearing about it isscaring me.
Stacee (30:16):
Yeah.
So I always think, oh, thesepoor souls, if they knew about
gusto, they wouldn't have been.
What's your tip of the week?
Ira (30:26):
All right, so I'm going to mention a book.
It was good hearing you talkabout your blog and your lecture
about Stop Acting Like a Girl,and it reminded me of this book
that I like, called Made toStick.
It is written by a pair ofbrothers, Chip Heath and Dan
Heath, and is all about why,sort of, in a world of so many
(30:51):
ideas and concepts and things,that certain ideas just stick in
people's minds and you neverforget them.
And I think that, yeah, thatphrase of stop acting like a
girl is one of those phrasesthat sticks in people's minds
forever, and that's probably whyit was triggering to some
people when I heard that was thename of your talk.
Stacee (31:13):
Oh, great, yeah, and I do have the last book you
recommended, The FiveDysfunctions of a Team.
Yeah, I bought it, so it'ssitting on my end table.
I plan to read it soon.
So now you've given me anotherone.
All right, well, let's hop overto the wheel and spin it, and
(31:34):
we'll see what our topic is fornext.
Ira (31:43):
What was your first big disappointment?
Stacee (31:47):
Oh, we're going to have some more sad and get real
conversations.
Ira (31:53):
We had like a nice run of uplifting stuff at the beginning
.
Stacee (31:57):
All right, Get your Kleenex out and we'll see you
next week.
Well, welcome back.
You've been at the WesternVeterinary Conference in Las
Vegas for a little bit.
How did that all go, Stacee?
Stacee (00:50):
It went good.
It was super busy.
I was there from Sunday toThursday.
So if you don't like it, that'sa long time.
Ira (01:00):
Twice as long as the limit.
Stacee (01:02):
I do love it, so it wasn't that bad.
But, man, I was way busier thanI thought I would be.
I met with a lot of emergingfounders and want to be founders
, and so that was really fun andyou can start to kind of see I
don't know like I'm starting topick up on who's really
(01:23):
passionate for real, for real,real, and who's kind of trying
to, you know, make a dollar,which they don't have to be
mutually exclusive, but Idefinitely like enjoy being
around the people more that havelike this passionate idea.
Ira (01:40):
For sure.
I think there's nothing wrongwith being ambitious, about
creating a successful andprofitable business, but my
sense and experience is that thepeople that do that the best
are the ones that care a lotabout a problem, that they think
they have an idea that willsolve it they have an idea that
(02:08):
will solve it.
Stacee (02:08):
Yeah, and like, not like a big, I asked.
I would ask the people I metwhat's your main goal here, what
are you really trying to do?
And if it's make money, I canlive with that.
But they'll say something hugelike make sure no animal is ever
in pain.
Again.
I'm like, "oh god, come on, getreal
Ira (02:26):
It just comes off as inauthentic, even if they
genuinely mean it.
I have been doing some work totry to help spin up a company
that would be focused onveterinary oncology therapy and,
and I said, you know, I, Ican't be the guy that's going to
say that I'm starting thiscompany because I don't want any
(02:47):
pet to ever die of cancer, like, of course that's what I want,
right, it's obvious just feelsinauthentic and sets you up for
for you could do something greatand you're still a failure
because you didn't achieve this.
(03:08):
You know unrealistic set ofgoals I suppose there's, you
know, some people that you lookat that set these crazy
unrealistic goals and achievethem, but that is, you know, the
fraction of a fraction of apercent sort of sort of people.
And I am not quite so arrogantto think that I'm in that
fraction of a fraction of apercent.
I might be close, but I'm notquite there.
Stacee (03:29):
Well, I did want to tell you about one of my sessions.
Ira (03:33):
Oh yes.
Stacee (03:34):
I did this hour session called Stop Acting Like a Girl -
Six Tips for Women to beSuccessful in Business, and it's
based on this blog I wrote, youknow, I don't know four or five
years ago and it's just alwayssomething I've thought about
when I look at my team both inmy clinic and at Vet2Pet were
(03:54):
women.
But then when I had to work toyou know, advance, my company
and I'm doing things like PIMS,integration deals and raising
money deals and selling it it'sall men and I started to see
like these differences in theway we behave and there are
(04:15):
things that I think women do,that we're born with or we're
trained to be, that roll overinto this professional zone and
kind of sabotage ourselves.
So I wrote this blog and Idecided to do a presentation on
it and I'll just tell you thefirst thing that happened to me
is like a day before I waspresenting several people, I
(04:37):
told the title to sort ofcringed when I said it's, stop
acting like a girl and one guywas like are we allowed to say
the word girl?
And I felt kind of bad for himbecause he's obviously been beat
down.
And then some of my girlfriendsare like I don't know this
could be dicey for you.
Ira (04:55):
When I was growing up, right Like that would be
something that a bad coach wouldsay to like one of the guys on
the team if they weren't actingtough enough right, and so I
guess that phrase could be sortof triggering for some people
and some audiences in a way thatI'm sure you did not intend.
Stacee (05:14):
But, Ira, there was like two or 300 women in the room
and I went through my tips.
I also shared my no-nonsense,foolproof methodology to get a
raise.
And then I opened the floor tocomments because I had about 10
or 15 minutes still availablefor the audience and they just
(05:35):
started sharing so much.
It was crazy.
Like one girl said, when shegoes into her board meetings or
her CEO room, she's not the CEO.
She said she isn't very wellliked because she goes against
the grain a little and providesa different perspective and she
(05:56):
feels like she isn't verypopular.
But yet afterwards people texther and thank her for saying
what they didn't say and she'slike here I am struggling, I
want to be liked so much, butyet if I'm being authentic in my
true self, I'm bucking thesystem and I don't know what to
do and I'm like, oh, you keepdoing it.
(06:18):
And they just kept sharingstories like this.
It was crazy.
Like 80% of the workforce ormore is women, but the top is
men.
Ira (06:29):
Yeah, it reminds me of.
I have this friend who has thissaying that I love and hate,
which is she says you know,women can do anything as long as
there's not a white male thatalso wants to do that thing and
can do it half as well.
Stacee (06:46):
Yeah, exactly, I don't know what I'm going to do with
this.
I feel like, oh no, I have tohelp other women, but I don't
know how.
Ira (06:54):
That's a great cause and I think a lot of people will
appreciate it.
Stacee (06:57):
Okay, well, let's get into it today.
Ira (07:16):
The question is what was your most challenging firing?
So I'll go first.
So I think I might need tochange some names just for
people's anonymity.
But when I came back intopracticing veterinary medicine,
(07:36):
started my practice, I hadreally only been a radiation
oncologist for about a yearbefore I stopped practicing and
went to work in a research labfor about five years, and so
when I came back I was I'mextremely fortunate to be
working at a clinic that had avery, very experienced radiation
(07:58):
oncology technician and shehelped me so much.
All the little things that Iwould sort of forget, she would
kind of remind me of, and all ofthe details that you kind of
need to worry about related tojust kind of running a day in
(08:18):
the clinic and treating patientsshe would take care of and she
would almost just kind of likewalk me through.
Like you know here's the nextthing you got to go off to and
don't forget this and was justan exceptional friend, mentor,
uh, co--worker, you know all ofthe things and we worked
(08:41):
together for quite a few yearsand I was opening another clinic
about 100 miles south and hadhired a new radiation oncologist
to go work there and needed agood radiation oncology
(09:01):
technician to go run that clinicand I trusted this person knew
they were great and thought I'vegot this great idea, like let's
have her go down there.
Not that I don't need heranymore, but I don't need her as
much anymore and she canhopefully be as great of a
(09:22):
resource to.
You know this newly mintedradiation oncologist that's
going to try to start up thisnew clinic, as she's been to me
and be a great opportunity forher, great for this new practice
, and so we got her to agree tothis plan.
She moved with her husband, youknow, to another city and um
(09:44):
and started up and for just avariety of reasons that in
retrospect maybe I could havepredicted, but at the time just
never even dawned on me likejust was not the right fit to
work with that new doctor.
Stacee (10:00):
And so the two people had a personality clash?
Ira (10:04):
I would say, you know, personality and just
professionally, like they justweren't a good fit to work
together and and this was a bigproblem and you know, obviously
we tried to work through it, it,but it became clear that like
this just wasn't working and weultimately had to make a
decision to say this wasn'tworking, like somebody's not
(10:29):
going to be able to continuehere, and it was an impossible
decision because it can takeyears to hire a veterinary
radiation oncologist and there'snobody that has the amount of
experience in sort of thisradiation oncology technician
role.
But you can train othertechnicians to do it and you
(10:52):
know it's just this impossiblething.
But made the decision toterminate that position and
probably the hardestconversation I've ever had right
was to sort of sit down andhave to let this person become a
very, very close personalfriend as well as kind of this
extraordinarily valued, you knowcolleague and mentor, and to
(11:14):
say you know I'm really sorry,but we're going, and and to say
you know I'm really sorry, butwe're gonna have to let you go
and, um, you know, sort ofreflect on all of the really fun
times and things that we, youknow, did together.
Like she she literally gave meunderwear as my secret santa for
sort of the work holiday, likeyou know we were pretty close
(11:34):
and and to sort of have to gothrough this and um and let her
go, and you know she reallyhadn't done anything wrong per
se, um, but you know she and wejust weren't able to sort of
navigate this conflict and youknow always have had a bit of
(11:54):
regret about that.
I think we're still, we'refriendly, but we're not really
in frequent contact anymore andI feel like I lost an important
and close friend that's now moreof, unfortunately, an
acquaintance and ultimately Idon't know if it was even really
(12:15):
the best thing for the practice, I think for that reason and
others, the the radiationoncologist that that was there
ultimately ended up moving on toanother opportunity not too
long after that and and so wewere still back in sort of we
need to find somebody and that'sgoing to take a long time.
So, um, that was super tough.
(12:36):
I still ask myself sometimes ifwe really made the right
decision there and was, uh, youknow that was the worst.
Stacee (12:45):
That sounds so traumatic .
Did you offer her to go back tothe original practice?
But I mean, it was alreadyanother she couldn't.
Ira (12:54):
I knew she couldn't like she bought out, she bought a
house, but I mean, it wasalready another.
Stacee (12:59):
Oh no
Ira (13:04):
That's, and you know I worried about things that maybe
shouldn't have been my problembut there weren't other
radiation oncology clinics thatwere nearby and sort of worried
about her ability to do thethings that she loved to do and
was great at doing.
Stacee (13:17):
Wow.
And what happened to her?
Did she move on to bigger andbetter things, or do you even
know?
Ira (13:24):
Yeah, no, she did.
She did end up moving on tobeing a internal medicine
technician, which I think sheliked, although she wasn't't if
she was sort of elite right,there aren't many people like
her in my field, and that'sgained from many, many years of
(13:44):
doing it, and so in some ways Iimagine that she had to start
over a little bit, althoughcertainly some of those skills
are very translatable.
Stacee (13:52):
It's so hard because my first firing like you I was in
this predicament of I reallyliked the person a lot
personally.
I enjoyed working with them,they did a pretty good job at
their job.
But I ultimately had to choosewhat was best for the business.
(14:14):
And I remember grappling withthis dilemma like is my purpose
to be, you know, for the people,only individual people, or is
my role to grow and scale thisbusiness for the greater good,
which is really what I had setout to do?
And so sometimes they don't gotogether, and that was actually
(14:39):
the struggle I had with my firstfiring.
Ira (14:43):
You still in touch with that person, or did you no?
Stacee (14:46):
No, it burned bad.
You know, we're starting togrow the team.
We hired a few more people andwe're starting to really grow.
And I felt a need one day towrite down our core values in
such a way that we're like,really, this is how it works
around here.
These are the things I reallycare about, Because I felt like
(15:07):
if there'd been a couple littleissues where I'd had to sit
people down and say, hey, wedon't really do it like that
here.
So I pushed it, pushed me tothink about how do I want this
place to look and what isimportant, Because the reason I
left my other job one of thereasons was because it got
really catty and it got really.
(15:29):
You know, vet clinics can bethis way, um front of the house
versus the back of the house andyou're overworked and you're
tired and cranky and it's abunch of, honestly, women.
Ira (15:40):
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Stacee (15:43):
It can be a tough world to be in.
So I wrote down what I call.
I didn't call it core values, Icalled it " manifesto of And
one day I sat down and I wrotedown these are the things I care
about.
These are the lines not tocross that will get you fired
around.
Here was how I presented it, andnumber one was honesty.
(16:06):
Like I just have zero tolerancefor lying and being respectful
of others, not talking aboutpeople behind their back.
These were some of the thingsthat I said.
These are non-negotiable lines.
If you cross them, you're out,and I presented it to every new
hire and at that point, all thepeople that are on my team and
(16:29):
I'm like I get it if you can'tagree to this.
So if you can't, you shouldleave now.
Then one day what happens is wecatch my sweet 20 something year
old in a very blatant lie.
So I fired her and I told heryou crossed the line and that's
that.
And it sucks so bad becausenone of us knew how to do our
(16:53):
job and we really valued her andshe was 99% an amazing person
to be around.
That one little percent reallywas the only issue, but I felt
so terrible Ira just sick at mystomach for a long time that I
(17:13):
changed the trajectory of thisperson's life.
Or perhaps she did it toherself, but I had to hold the
line.
This is my pet peeve, like ifyou're going to have core values
(17:33):
and you don't hold the line.
Ira (17:36):
You know that any decisions that sort of have consequences
from.
There is, you know that's notyou causing, you know some
dramatic change of course ofsomebody's life.
In all likelihood those are, umare highly complex outcomes
(17:59):
that you're only one small pieceof.
Stacee (18:01):
The person I ended up putting in the role, another 20
something young, up and comingwoman is flourishing so much and
she is really climbed theladder at the company that I
sold that to pet to.
And I actually met with herboss's boss now in Vegas and she
specifically called out thisperson Kylee McCoy is her name
(18:25):
and said how amazing this personis and where did I find her.
So you know, these littledecisions, they make a big
difference in ways you might notthink about.
Ira (18:38):
Sure, Let me ask you something a little bit different
about firing, since it's such afun topic.
So, yeah, I've talked to lotsof people that have been fired
and one of the things I oftenhear from them is you know, it's
not so bad that I got fired,but it's the way that I got
(19:01):
fired that I'm upset about,Right?
And yeah, I've really tried tothink through like is there you
know a better way or keylearnings, pieces of advice
related to how to handle thosethings, Because I feel like more
often than not, people walkaway with this perception that,
you know, I feel like Iunderstand that maybe this had
(19:23):
to happen, but I just feel likeit should have been handled
better.
Stacee (19:27):
Oh yeah, the first few firings I did at the vet clinic
were horrible and I think thebig difference I came to
discover there's two parts.
One is it's like kind of theway you actually break bad news
to a client when their pet isdying or going to die.
There's like this warm up partof the brain where you can't
(19:49):
just blurt it out.
You have to say something likeI have some bad news to share, I
have something that's going tobe difficult for you to hear.
Like just that one phrase helpsthem get a jolt of endorphins
to help them receive the news,them get a jolt of endorphins to
help them receive the news.
But prior to that, it's thelead up to the firing.
That I think is the problem.
(20:09):
And many leaders or managers,they have all these irritations
or issues with the employee intheir head that they haven't
effectively communicated withthe employee.
Because it's hard, it'sdifficult, you don't know how to
say it and oftentimes it's verygray instead of super direct.
Like hey, you're not doing thispart right and if you don't
(20:30):
start doing it right, like we'regoing to have a tough challenge
in front of us because I've gotto have you do it this one way.
You've got to not cause drama.
You've got to, you know, tellthe truth, whatever it is.
So I think sometimes we putpeople in situations where we
think they should just know whatthe rules of the game are and
(20:51):
then when they cross the line,they don't know they crossed the
line and maybe you aren'teffective at telling them that
they crossed the line.
So I think if you fire someone,well, they see it coming, and I
think when it hurts the most iswhen they didn't see it coming.
What do you think?
Ira (21:07):
I think that is frequently the case.
I think there are, of coursethere's a lot of different
reasons why people get let go.
I think your point is welltaken when there are performance
or behavior issues that sort oflead people down that road.
I think another reason whypeople are frequently terminated
(21:28):
is when a business has a littlebit of a shift in direction or
focus or needs to shiftresources from one area to
another or is running intofinancial crunches where, in
order to do something that'sreally important for the
business, they need to make thatsomewhere and for a variety of
reasons.
(21:48):
It's very hard for leaders inthose circumstances to kind of
give people a lot of warningthat their job or their
department may be at risk, andthen they are in the position of
having to essentially laypeople off without really having
them have a lot of warning thatsomething like that was coming.
Stacee (22:07):
It's not the fault of the employee, it's the fault of
the business.
Ira (22:12):
I think that, from a kind of dispassionate person that
thinks about how businesses growand evolve, I think there's
something that's potentiallyvery healthy about businesses at
certain stages needing to sortof hire a lot of people to build
something fast and, you know,figure things out and try to
grow, but you know, eventuallyneeds to identify, like, how it
(22:36):
can do that, you know,efficiently, scalably,
profitably.
And that requires efficiently,scalably, profitably, and that
requires aspects of kind oftrimming down on that.
And so that makes sense to mefrom sort of dispassionate,
organizational kind ofdevelopment perspective.
(22:57):
But from a personal perspectiveit takes real people, people,
lives, and you know, essentiallycasualties of circumstances
that are not their fault oroutside of their control.
And yeah, I, the way I sort ofthink about it is, you know,
there are times when everybodymaybe in the business might care
(23:17):
a lot about the people in thebusiness but the business itself
doesn't end or can't actuallycare about people Right and um,
and that's, I think, a harshreality that maybe some people
never have to learn, but manypeople learn at some point in
time and and it's pretty painful.
Stacee (23:38):
Oh, it's so crushing.
So I know that Vetsource, whereI sold my company, they had a
big layoff like a year ago.
And from watching that from theoutside, what I think is
twofold the things that could bedone better at this level of
(23:59):
the game.
One is when you hire someone,maybe it's worth saying we are
in growth mode and we have totell you no job is safe.
There could be pivots on thiscompany.
We could make strategic changesand it wouldn't be out of the
norm if we lay people off hereand there as we grow.
(24:20):
So the message know, themessage you're trying to convey
is make yourself as valuable aspossible to this team.
But the other is I think a lotof high level executives and HR
people think that the kindestway is to just a sharp cut and
get you like just sharp and lessbleeding with this.
(24:45):
But I think they need a warmup.
I think they need to.
The team needs to know like,even if it's one day, hey, we
are in a board meeting, we arehaving some difficult
conversations because thefinancials aren't where we need
them and we're going to becoming out with some hard news
in the next few days or we losta major account and this is
(25:07):
going to change the way weoperate around here.
We can't make the numbers work.
We're trying, but everyoneneeds to brace for impact and I
know they hate doing thatbecause it causes undue or
anticipatory anxiety for a lotof people.
But isn't that better than justa swift cut and instantly all
(25:30):
the people that were cut aregone.
Their emails are shut off.
You can't slack them anymore.
You don't even know exactly whogot cut because they don't
publish that list.
Don't even know exactly who gotcut because they don't publish
that list.
That can be more stressful forthe people.
Ira (25:48):
They don't trust you anymore.
It can be extremely awkward, um, like you don't know what to do
.
You know, my, my instinct isalways like, oh, I really want
to call so-and-so, and you know,see how they're doing and
express my you know remorse fortheir circumstance, right, um,
(26:09):
but all of the HR people willtell you like, oh, that you
absolutely can't do, that,that's the worst possible thing
you can do, and I don't reallyunderstand it.
Uh, I sort of understand it,but I I feel like it is a bit
misplaced in terms of being kindof a foundational principle of
(26:30):
how people are supposed tohandle these things.
Stacee (26:32):
Yeah, it's cold hearted and maybe that's to your point
the organization has no feelings.
Hey, listeners, we'd love tohear what you think about this.
So please go over to LinkedIn,if you're on there, and go to
the Accidental Entrepreneurs andshare your thoughts.
First off, how do you think youshould fire someone or do
(26:55):
layoffs, and also tell us aboutthe first time you had to fire
someone.
We'd love to hear your storytoo.
Ira (27:02):
Well, I think we are reaching that moment where we
are to share a resource, wordsof wisdom, maybe a influential
(27:26):
mentor or person that's helpedyou along the way, so why don't
you go first, Stacee?
Stacee (27:37):
Okay, my tip of the day is a payroll software called
Gusto.
I have a question.
Ira (27:40):
Sorry to interrupt you.
I've struggled with this a lot.
Is it gusto, or is it gustoLike English or Spanish?
I don't really know, maybe itshould be gusto because you know
that's a better meaning.
Stacee (28:11):
I didn't really know how to do payroll taxes or payroll.
The whole thing is verycomplicated for me to understand
and I was thrilled when Idiscovered this software and
they do everything for you andeach employee has their own
portal and they can see theirW-2 and all their history of
raises, and it's a delightfulcompany.
Ira (28:31):
Great.
I've had good experiences thereas well, and at my startup we
switched at some point to usingwhat I think was called a PPO, a
professional payroll operator.
I probably got that wrong, butessentially they kind of take
(28:53):
over everything related toemployment.
So, technically, your employeesthey're sort of co-employed,
they're paid by.
So, technically, your employeesare, you know, they're sort of
co-employed, they're, they'repaid by.
Their paychecks come from acompany with a different name
than yours, but they work foryou and kind of at at your terms
and service and they take overall the benefits as a result and
you pay for it.
(29:14):
Like it's a much moresignificant expense than using a
great resource like Gusto was.
Stacee (29:19):
I want to tell you real quick about this podcast you
have to listen to, called Queenof the Con.
Okay she is this evilbookkeeper that proclaims to be
a CPA, that targets smallstartups, small businesses, and
does their payroll for them, andshe has the people write their
(29:40):
um taxes to their well there'spayroll taxes and an income tax.
And she has the people writetheir taxes to their well
there's payroll taxes and anincome tax.
And she has them write alltheir checks to income tax
payments.
And she had a bank accountcalled Income Tax Payments that
was the name of her companyDBA'd with the Bank of America
and swindled millions of dollarsfrom like a dozen different.
Ira (30:03):
And it's just like a horror story.
Or is this like nonfiction?
Stacee (30:07):
It is a nonfiction horror story.
It's called Queen of the Con.
It's season two.
Ira (30:12):
I'm not going to get into this is.
Even just hearing about it isscaring me.
Stacee (30:16):
Yeah.
So I always think, oh, thesepoor souls, if they knew about
gusto, they wouldn't have been.
What's your tip of the week?
Ira (30:26):
All right, so I'm going to mention a book.
It was good hearing you talkabout your blog and your lecture
about Stop Acting Like a Girl,and it reminded me of this book
that I like, called Made toStick.
It is written by a pair ofbrothers, Chip Heath and Dan
Heath, and is all about why,sort of, in a world of so many
(30:51):
ideas and concepts and things,that certain ideas just stick in
people's minds and you neverforget them.
And I think that, yeah, thatphrase of stop acting like a
girl is one of those phrasesthat sticks in people's minds
forever, and that's probably whyit was triggering to some
people when I heard that was thename of your talk.
Stacee (31:13):
Oh, great, yeah, and I do have the last book you
recommended, The FiveDysfunctions of a Team.
Yeah, I bought it, so it'ssitting on my end table.
I plan to read it soon.
So now you've given me anotherone.
All right, well, let's hop overto the wheel and spin it, and
(31:34):
we'll see what our topic is fornext.
Ira (31:43):
What was your first big disappointment?
Stacee (31:47):
Oh, we're going to have some more sad and get real
conversations.
Ira (31:53):
We had like a nice run of uplifting stuff at the beginning
.
Stacee (31:57):
All right, Get your Kleenex out and we'll see you
next week.
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