June 3, 2024 • 24 mins
Being an entrepreneur isn't all rainbows and unicorns. Guest cohost Cindy Trice and Ira discuss some of the downsides to being the head honcho of a startup ranging from bearing the ultimate burden of all decisions to feelings of loneliness.
Tips of the week:
Cindy:
"Humor Seriously: Why Humor Is a Secret Weapon in Business and Life " by Jennifer Aaker and Naomi Bagdonas
Ira:
Dr. Cheryl London: You really want to know what you're talking about at such a detailed level that like you could go up without any notes and basically draw the whole thing out, and then you will have the ability to sort of explain, explain things to anybody, right
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ira (00:40):
Welcome to the Accidental Entrepreneurs Podcast.
We have another episode withour esteemed colleague and
friend, Dr.
Cindy Trice, who is the founderof Relief Rover, a software
service for relief veterinarians, as well as Kick it Pajamas,
which provides comfortable andfunctional pajamas for females
(01:02):
that need to be in treatment inthe hospital for a variety of
reasons, and had a greatconversation about your journey
very recently.
But, yeah, how have things beengoing lately?
Cindy (01:14):
Everything has been going really well.
I'm somehow figuring out how tojuggle, kick it and working for
Hound and we you know we'vetalked about this before.
I'm in the elder care years ofmy life.
I got a new puppy, so now Ihave three dogs.
But honestly, like, even withall of that busy-ness in my life
(01:38):
, I can't complain.
My life is actually really good.
Ira (01:41):
That is fantastic, actually really good.
That is fantastic.
I was thinking about the factthat it's been a little bit less
than a year since Relief Roverwas acquired by Hound, and that
means that you are working forsomebody else now.
How's that going?
Cindy (01:58):
Well, I will tell you.
So many of my friends were likewait, you're going to be an
employee.
And I was like yeah.
And they're like wait, wait, no,are you sure, Cindy?
I don't know if you can do it,because the truth is, I have
spent very little of my workinglife since graduating from
undergrad as an employee.
(02:18):
The rest of my working life andI'm 55 years old has been
freelance.
So that is why my family and myfriends were like oh God,
Cindy's not going to be a goodemployee.
She doesn't know how to be anemployee.
Ira (02:33):
Finally getting a W-2.
Cindy (02:35):
Yes, and I will tell you like, okay, yeah, speaking of a
W-2, I'm like what.
I don't have to pay quarterlytaxes, this awesome, so that
part.
And then the fact that, likethe money just like falls into
your bank account, you know,rather than I'm like not getting
all these checks from differenthospitals and then taking a
(02:56):
picture and putting it in like,oh yeah, all these modern ways
of getting money into my bankaccount and then it happens on a
regular cadence rather than,you know, just very variable,
like it does when you're arelief vet.
So, honestly, I have beenenjoying it, probably far more
(03:19):
than certainly people who knowme expected, and even probably
more than I expected myself.
Ira (03:27):
Yeah, I remember when we sold my veterinary practices and
went from sort of working formyself to being an employee for
another group and it really feltlike this big kind of weight of
responsibilities was kind ofalleviated.
Like I still felt very muchresponsible for the practices
and had a leadershipresponsibility in those
(03:48):
practices, but I like I wasn'ton my own anymore with respect
to those responsibilities andand the reason that felt good is
because, yeah, I knew and Iliked the additional leaders
that were now helping me andthat ultimately would be making
decisions that would affect me,and so I knew that they were
(04:11):
making good decisions and werefactoring my opinion into those
decisions and the like.
I feel like if that wasn't thecase, the actual burden of those
responsibilities might feeleven greater because I'd feel
like I have to protect mypractice from these other forces
that are outside, but instead Ifelt like you know, there's all
these other forces that aredoing my job for me.
So I think if you feel likethat weight has been lifted,
(04:33):
that's probably a really goodsign that you have confidence
and a good relationship with thepeople that are now helping
lead your old company.
Cindy (04:41):
Yes, it's about way more than not having to pay quarterly
taxes.
It is about that lift, the liftof not having the whole weight
of it on my shoulders.
But it's also the fact that,you know, I loved the team that
we built at Relief Rover.
I love, love those people and Iwas lucky enough that two of
(05:03):
them came along with us and nowwe're for Hound and the and.
So I think that's been justsuch a gift and they've been
amazing contributors to Houndand I love the Hound team Like
this is.
I love working with a biggerteam, right, I love that we have
, you know, these, thesedevelopers.
(05:24):
Actually, I worked withdevelopers that we really liked
for Relief Rover, but they wereoutside contractors and so
having developers as part of theteam and our leadership team is
amazing and our customersuccess and product and we have
all these departments.
It's still not a big company,but it's bigger than really
(05:45):
Forever was, and and we havethis division of labor, which is
really nice, where people whoare expert at what they're doing
that's what they're doing, andand then, but it's still very
you know we're small enough thatwe're still very cohesive as a
team.
I think when people think well,when I think of myself.
I hope this doesn't what I'mabout to say doesn't stop me
(06:09):
from ever getting a job at acorporation, if I happen to want
that.
But I think where I would havea problem is that I've never
worked for a big company, ever.
So the layers, you know, allthe different.
I still, when I talk tocorporate groups and I'm like I
get so confused about people'sroles and what that means.
And sometimes, when things areso big like that, I've just
(06:34):
never been in that kind ofenvironment.
So I don't understand it and Idon't think I would thrive in
that kind of environment.
I very do.
I very much like the, thecreative startup.
You know we're, we're buildingsomething small together and I
think once things get too big Imight not be the right person
(06:54):
for that kind of company.
Ira (06:57):
Yeah, I found that for me and probably, I think maybe for
other people that have anentrepreneurial like mindset,
that being at a big company andbeing in sort of maybe upper
leadership, but not like seniorexecutive leadership, is a weird
place to be, because things arehappening and important
(07:22):
decisions are being made andyou're just sort of told what
those decisions are sometimesand you're not actually involved
(07:42):
in to sort of have thathappening outside of even your
involvement but you're aware of,you have enough awareness and
experience to sort of know aboutit, is you just feel like
you're you're missing out alittle bit and and it's hard
whereas at a smaller companyespecially if you're are sort of
more in that senior executiveleadership level, like you're
(08:02):
part of that team, like youdon't feel like.
The way I feel when, when I wasin that senior executive
leadership level, like you'repart of that team, like you
don't feel like and the way Ifeel when I was in that role is
like I just feel like there'ssecrets that I'm not privy to at
this business and I reallydon't like it.
I like being part of a teamwhere you know like we all
shared everything together andwe didn't need to have secrets
from each other, but once youhit a certain size of company,
(08:25):
that's really not practical todo, right?
Cindy (08:26):
Yeah, exactly.
Ira (08:28):
Is there anything that you miss now that you no longer sort
of a solopreneur there?
Cindy (08:35):
I mean I certainly miss seeing the team members that
didn't come along with us toHound, because you know you just
develop close relationshipswith the people that you're
working with all the time.
Now, I didn't have they weren'temployees, they were all
contractors but that doesn'tmean we didn't, you know,
develop strong relationships.
So I do miss that, but maybethere are certain times I might
(09:04):
miss the ability to make somekind of unilateral decision, but
not that much.
Ira (09:13):
Yeah, yeah, I would say yeah, I felt the same same way
for a couple of years, a fewyears after the sale of our
practices, and then, ultimately,when some bigger changes
happened and decisions were made, I started to sort of have a
bigger appreciation for the factthat, like, oh you know, I
really did sort of lose controlover the trajectory of some
(09:36):
things.
But I can't really complain.
I mean, I think overall thingswent uh went extremely well.
I guess that brings us to ourquestion to discuss today, cindy
, which is what did you like theleast about being a founder?
Cindy (09:56):
Probably I well, this is going to sound probably terrible
, but once I started okay, therewas a shift.
There was a shift when I'm soexcited about this idea and I'm
so excited about what I want todo to help people right, to help
(10:18):
the relief community Just thatmade me wake up every morning,
like I was saying before, andjust like open my eyes, so
excited to start the day.
Once it shifted into where itstarted to feel like I was
having to sell it and I startedfeeling like, oh, I'm selling
(10:39):
which I know this really doesn't.
It doesn't.
I'm afraid this isn't going tocome off right.
But I also have a feeling otherfounders will understand.
It seems like, okay, as afounder, you should like 100%
believe in what you're doing andbe able to sell it Like selling
it shouldn't be, it should justbe super easy because you
(11:00):
really believe in what you do.
But what I will say is, when youhave a two-sided marketplace,
both sides of that marketplacedo not what they want, does not
always line up, and, and yourjob is to figure out where it
does line up and and emphasizethat and and try to make that
work.
But it doesn't always line up,so, um.
(11:23):
So here's this is maybe it's anexample that popped into my
head.
So, um, I, recently I'm on theboard of the NAVC and we were,
you know, they've they've donesome surveys with conference
goers and they've done surveyswith exhibitors, and um,
conference goers want theexhibit hall to be open longer,
(11:45):
um, more hours and more days,and exhibitors, surprisingly,
want the exhibit hall open lesshours and for fewer days.
Right, so you have these, youknow.
But but you, you need thesepeople to come together, because
that's sort of part of thepoint.
And so it's like how do youmake these two sides happy?
And so it's like, how do youmake these two sides happy?
(12:07):
So to me that was verystressful to make these two
sides happy, particularly whenone side of your marketplace is
free and the other side of themarketplace is who pays?
And it is very tempting tocater to the paying side, to
(12:30):
cater to the paying side, butthat isn't.
Even though on the surface thatseems like the right thing to
do, it isn't always the rightthing to do.
You have to think about thepeople's motivations for why
they're there and what mattersto them, and you have to make
decisions, the right decisions,based on that, so you don't
alienate one side or the other.
So in some ways I don't missbeing totally responsible for
(12:52):
navigating or by myselfnavigating that we still
navigated it out, but I'm nottrying to navigate that by
myself navigate that by myself?
Ira (13:09):
Yeah, I'm thinking about, well, I don't have a Facebook
account, but like a social mediacompany that has, they have
users who are not the payingcustomer they're what they're
selling right and what they wantfrom that experience and then
they have advertisers who areactually paying them the dollars
and what those two groups wantfrom a social media company are
(13:29):
probably in massive oppositionfrom each other and they have to
navigate that in a way withoutum pissing one group off, and
they don't usually do that verywell.
I don't think, um, and it's noteasy to do either.
Yeah, that's super interesting.
I think for me, the thing that Idisliked the most about being a
(13:52):
founder was like sort of theloneliness of it at times.
You're, you know I was lucky atVetPrep that I had a great
little team, but most of ourtime we were, we were remote and
, um, and some of my otherexperiences has been more on my
own at times, and you know, whenthings are hard or challenging,
(14:20):
like you can call a friend oryou can talk to a loved one and
that's extremely helpful andvery much appreciated.
But you know, ultimately, likeyou sort of feel like you're on
your own and you have all theseworries and problems and
stresses that are sort ofuniquely yours to bear and that
you have a lot of responsibilityfor, and so that for me I think
(14:42):
was the hardest part.
So that for me I think was thehardest part.
I can sort of relate to yourcomments about some of the
challenges of kind of having tobe a salesman for the product
and, yeah, mostly tried to takethe approach of, you know, try
to build something that's goingto sell itself, which we were
lucky enough to do at vet prep.
(15:02):
But I have certainly grown inmy evolution and thinking about
just the whole concept of ofsales.
Um, never really thought of mysale myself as a salesman, as a
veterinarian, but you know Imean of course a hundred percent
are and ifyou can't sell your services to
a client, you cannot help theanimal that's in front of you,
(15:24):
like yeah, it's just a fact.
And and so I have come to verymuch appreciate the skill set of
sales and and it's not me, Ithink, is sort of the thing that
always kind of makes me alittle bit uneasy about that
(15:46):
sort of aspect of things butit's actually something I've
tried to develop in my own wayright as an entrepreneur, and I
think you sort of have to yeah,you do have to and I, you know,
I tried to develop it in veryformal ways by reading books and
listening to podcasts andtaking courses and things like
(16:07):
that.
Cindy (16:07):
But then you're right, there is, there is a way that
you can make it your own right,like make it your, your own,
your own style.
But I, I'm 100% with you on theloneliness piece, like that
Also, especially before I had ateam, when I was literally doing
(16:30):
it by myself, and you know,that was when it was nice to
talk to other entrepreneurs andbecause at least I was talking
to people who would get it right, they would understand, you
know, versus talking to, youknow, my family, who may or may
not truly understand what itfeels like.
But you're right, at the end ofthe day, it's yours alone to
(16:53):
bear, and that could be tricky,all right.
Ira (17:10):
Well, we have a tradition in every episode that at the end
of the episode, we take amoment to share a resource,
piece of advice, a mentor, abook, a tool that has helped you
along the way.
So I'll give you theopportunity to go first.
Cindy (17:32):
Okay, Well, I have a book I wanted to share and then I
have a quote.
Can I do?
Am I allowed to do both?
Ira (17:39):
You can do double duty.
Cindy (17:40):
Okay, so the book is called "Humor Seriously, why
humor is a secret weapon inbusiness and life.
Oh, I like it and I took acourse from this woman.
Okay, and so she is a.
Ira (17:55):
Do you know?
Cindy (17:56):
her name, yeah, Naomi Bagdonis and Jennifer Aker.
So they teach at Stanford andIvan Zak talked me into doing
the Stanford LEAD program, whichI, because he had done it, and
I did it and it was amazing andthis was one of the courses and
I'm so glad I took it.
But basically it's it's reallyabout how humor can lead to
(18:20):
increased trust, can you know,and can really move you forward
in business when it's usedappropriately.
And also I love the point thatthe bar is really low, because
business people tend to takethemselves too seriously and I
would say sometimes vet med doestoo Like.
I feel like in vet med there'slike all sorts of fodder for
(18:42):
humor, right.
Ira (18:44):
Absolutely.
We deal with some pretty grossstuff and if you can't have a
sense of humor about it likeyou're going to struggle.
Cindy (18:52):
And a lot of vets do have a sense of humor in veterinary
teams, right, but I also thinkthat there are ways that we
could, as a veterinaryprofession, lighten up.
So, anyway, this book was really, really impactful for me in the
class.
And then the quote is from SethGodin, and I pulled it up
because I was anticipating thisquestion.
(19:12):
But so he's talking about, youknow, having something win big
and fast, right, like a businesswin big and fast or not, and
that big and fast and goingviral quickly and having
everyone catch on really quicklyisn't always the best way, and
(19:34):
sometimes I needed to bereminded of that, and so this
came in my inbox one day and Iprinted it out and look at it
all the time.
But the first challenge isfinding the focus and patience
to work on the asynchronizedadoption of important ideas, and
the second is to not sacrificethe larger goal in a frenzied
hustle for the big break.
(19:55):
And I needed to read that overand over, because it's easy to
lose sight of that when you feellike I got to do this fast and
you know all these other peopleare doing it too and you know it
is easy to get very stressedout by that idea.
Ira (20:12):
So that's, that's really cool.
Um, I was just thinking aboutsome of your comments about
humor and the in the businessworld and I remember that, um, I
used to tell people when theywould be interviewing for
positions in my veterinaryoncology office and, as you
might imagine, veterinaryoncology is certainly one of
those places that can be veryserious and heavy at times but I
(20:37):
think it's actually also aplace where, like, frankly, like
humor is still needed at timesto sort of, you know, just to
kind of deal with the realitiesthat you deal with.
And I used to tell people thatyou know we take our job very
seriously, but we don't takeourselves that seriously.
Stacee (20:57):
Right.
Ira (20:59):
And I thought that was sort of how I would try to look at
things.
And you know, as you know, likeI can behave professionally and
I genuinely care a lot aboutpeople and their pets and want
to help them and, at the sametime, like being able to sort of
recognize when things arehappening that you know they
(21:19):
just have to be able to sort ofrecognize when things are
happening.
That you know you just have tobe able to sometimes chuckle out
a bit and yeah, otherwiseyou're just going to drown.
Yeah, my influential personthat I want to mention for
today's episode is Cheryl London.
Cheryl London is a veterinaryoncologist you know, really
(21:44):
unique, strong personality andone of the sort of finest
scientists and just kind of youknow knowledgeable person when
it comes to all of the molecularstuff that goes into cancer
biology.
And what I remember the mostabout my time working with her
(22:07):
was her ability, without anynotes or any sort of you know
prompting and preparation, tojust kind of go up to a
whiteboard and start to likedraw a cell and a detailed sort
of molecular pathway and talkabout how a certain you know
(22:27):
drug or agent you know wouldwork and would have a specific
effect or what have you, and itjust kind of solidified for me
this notion that when you reallyreally know something extremely
well, like you can explain itin ways that you know make sense
(22:50):
.
And I think you know there'splenty of sort of quotes about
this, you know from I thinkEinstein has a quote that along
the lines of like, if, um, ifyou can't explain something very
well, you must not know it wellenough, or something like that,
right, um, but uh, yeah, thatwas what.
One of the things that that sheimpressed upon me was like you
(23:13):
really want to know what you'retalking about at such a detailed
level that like you could go upwithout any notes and basically
draw the whole thing out, andthen you will have the ability
to sort of explain, explainthings to anybody, right, um?
Cindy (23:29):
and I always, um, yeah, think about that from time to
time, and I appreciate her formany reasons, but that included
yes, I, I do remember her fromfrom Davis, but, yeah, yeah,
that is a skill and that is whenyou you've taken the time to
(23:49):
not be superficial about knowingeverything, but to dive deep on
on something.
Those of us that areprofessional samplers like
myself, you know, we may not beable to draw things out like
that.
Ira (24:04):
You know what you?
Know, Well, Cindy, it's beenamazing to have the opportunity
to catch up and chat, and Ithank you for your time and for
joining us on these episodes ofthe Accidental Entrepreneurs.
Cindy (24:16):
Super fun.
Thank you so much for having me.
Welcome to the Accidental Entrepreneurs Podcast.
We have another episode withour esteemed colleague and
friend, Dr.
Cindy Trice, who is the founderof Relief Rover, a software
service for relief veterinarians, as well as Kick it Pajamas,
which provides comfortable andfunctional pajamas for females
(01:02):
that need to be in treatment inthe hospital for a variety of
reasons, and had a greatconversation about your journey
very recently.
But, yeah, how have things beengoing lately?
Cindy (01:14):
Everything has been going really well.
I'm somehow figuring out how tojuggle, kick it and working for
Hound and we you know we'vetalked about this before.
I'm in the elder care years ofmy life.
I got a new puppy, so now Ihave three dogs.
But honestly, like, even withall of that busy-ness in my life
(01:38):
, I can't complain.
My life is actually really good.
Ira (01:41):
That is fantastic, actually really good.
That is fantastic.
I was thinking about the factthat it's been a little bit less
than a year since Relief Roverwas acquired by Hound, and that
means that you are working forsomebody else now.
How's that going?
Cindy (01:58):
Well, I will tell you.
So many of my friends were likewait, you're going to be an
employee.
And I was like yeah.
And they're like wait, wait, no,are you sure, Cindy?
I don't know if you can do it,because the truth is, I have
spent very little of my workinglife since graduating from
undergrad as an employee.
(02:18):
The rest of my working life andI'm 55 years old has been
freelance.
So that is why my family and myfriends were like oh God,
Cindy's not going to be a goodemployee.
She doesn't know how to be anemployee.
Ira (02:33):
Finally getting a W-2.
Cindy (02:35):
Yes, and I will tell you like, okay, yeah, speaking of a
W-2, I'm like what.
I don't have to pay quarterlytaxes, this awesome, so that
part.
And then the fact that, likethe money just like falls into
your bank account, you know,rather than I'm like not getting
all these checks from differenthospitals and then taking a
(02:56):
picture and putting it in like,oh yeah, all these modern ways
of getting money into my bankaccount and then it happens on a
regular cadence rather than,you know, just very variable,
like it does when you're arelief vet.
So, honestly, I have beenenjoying it, probably far more
(03:19):
than certainly people who knowme expected, and even probably
more than I expected myself.
Ira (03:27):
Yeah, I remember when we sold my veterinary practices and
went from sort of working formyself to being an employee for
another group and it really feltlike this big kind of weight of
responsibilities was kind ofalleviated.
Like I still felt very muchresponsible for the practices
and had a leadershipresponsibility in those
(03:48):
practices, but I like I wasn'ton my own anymore with respect
to those responsibilities andand the reason that felt good is
because, yeah, I knew and Iliked the additional leaders
that were now helping me andthat ultimately would be making
decisions that would affect me,and so I knew that they were
(04:11):
making good decisions and werefactoring my opinion into those
decisions and the like.
I feel like if that wasn't thecase, the actual burden of those
responsibilities might feeleven greater because I'd feel
like I have to protect mypractice from these other forces
that are outside, but instead Ifelt like you know, there's all
these other forces that aredoing my job for me.
So I think if you feel likethat weight has been lifted,
(04:33):
that's probably a really goodsign that you have confidence
and a good relationship with thepeople that are now helping
lead your old company.
Cindy (04:41):
Yes, it's about way more than not having to pay quarterly
taxes.
It is about that lift, the liftof not having the whole weight
of it on my shoulders.
But it's also the fact that,you know, I loved the team that
we built at Relief Rover.
I love, love those people and Iwas lucky enough that two of
(05:03):
them came along with us and nowwe're for Hound and the and.
So I think that's been justsuch a gift and they've been
amazing contributors to Houndand I love the Hound team Like
this is.
I love working with a biggerteam, right, I love that we have
, you know, these, thesedevelopers.
(05:24):
Actually, I worked withdevelopers that we really liked
for Relief Rover, but they wereoutside contractors and so
having developers as part of theteam and our leadership team is
amazing and our customersuccess and product and we have
all these departments.
It's still not a big company,but it's bigger than really
(05:45):
Forever was, and and we havethis division of labor, which is
really nice, where people whoare expert at what they're doing
that's what they're doing, andand then, but it's still very
you know we're small enough thatwe're still very cohesive as a
team.
I think when people think well,when I think of myself.
I hope this doesn't what I'mabout to say doesn't stop me
(06:09):
from ever getting a job at acorporation, if I happen to want
that.
But I think where I would havea problem is that I've never
worked for a big company, ever.
So the layers, you know, allthe different.
I still, when I talk tocorporate groups and I'm like I
get so confused about people'sroles and what that means.
And sometimes, when things areso big like that, I've just
(06:34):
never been in that kind ofenvironment.
So I don't understand it and Idon't think I would thrive in
that kind of environment.
I very do.
I very much like the, thecreative startup.
You know we're, we're buildingsomething small together and I
think once things get too big Imight not be the right person
(06:54):
for that kind of company.
Ira (06:57):
Yeah, I found that for me and probably, I think maybe for
other people that have anentrepreneurial like mindset,
that being at a big company andbeing in sort of maybe upper
leadership, but not like seniorexecutive leadership, is a weird
place to be, because things arehappening and important
(07:22):
decisions are being made andyou're just sort of told what
those decisions are sometimesand you're not actually involved
(07:42):
in to sort of have thathappening outside of even your
involvement but you're aware of,you have enough awareness and
experience to sort of know aboutit, is you just feel like
you're you're missing out alittle bit and and it's hard
whereas at a smaller companyespecially if you're are sort of
more in that senior executiveleadership level, like you're
(08:02):
part of that team, like youdon't feel like.
The way I feel when, when I wasin that senior executive
leadership level, like you'repart of that team, like you
don't feel like and the way Ifeel when I was in that role is
like I just feel like there'ssecrets that I'm not privy to at
this business and I reallydon't like it.
I like being part of a teamwhere you know like we all
shared everything together andwe didn't need to have secrets
from each other, but once youhit a certain size of company,
(08:25):
that's really not practical todo, right?
Cindy (08:26):
Yeah, exactly.
Ira (08:28):
Is there anything that you miss now that you no longer sort
of a solopreneur there?
Cindy (08:35):
I mean I certainly miss seeing the team members that
didn't come along with us toHound, because you know you just
develop close relationshipswith the people that you're
working with all the time.
Now, I didn't have they weren'temployees, they were all
contractors but that doesn'tmean we didn't, you know,
develop strong relationships.
So I do miss that, but maybethere are certain times I might
(09:04):
miss the ability to make somekind of unilateral decision, but
not that much.
Ira (09:13):
Yeah, yeah, I would say yeah, I felt the same same way
for a couple of years, a fewyears after the sale of our
practices, and then, ultimately,when some bigger changes
happened and decisions were made, I started to sort of have a
bigger appreciation for the factthat, like, oh you know, I
really did sort of lose controlover the trajectory of some
(09:36):
things.
But I can't really complain.
I mean, I think overall thingswent uh went extremely well.
I guess that brings us to ourquestion to discuss today, cindy
, which is what did you like theleast about being a founder?
Cindy (09:56):
Probably I well, this is going to sound probably terrible
, but once I started okay, therewas a shift.
There was a shift when I'm soexcited about this idea and I'm
so excited about what I want todo to help people right, to help
(10:18):
the relief community Just thatmade me wake up every morning,
like I was saying before, andjust like open my eyes, so
excited to start the day.
Once it shifted into where itstarted to feel like I was
having to sell it and I startedfeeling like, oh, I'm selling
(10:39):
which I know this really doesn't.
It doesn't.
I'm afraid this isn't going tocome off right.
But I also have a feeling otherfounders will understand.
It seems like, okay, as afounder, you should like 100%
believe in what you're doing andbe able to sell it Like selling
it shouldn't be, it should justbe super easy because you
(11:00):
really believe in what you do.
But what I will say is, when youhave a two-sided marketplace,
both sides of that marketplacedo not what they want, does not
always line up, and, and yourjob is to figure out where it
does line up and and emphasizethat and and try to make that
work.
But it doesn't always line up,so, um.
(11:23):
So here's this is maybe it's anexample that popped into my
head.
So, um, I, recently I'm on theboard of the NAVC and we were,
you know, they've they've donesome surveys with conference
goers and they've done surveyswith exhibitors, and um,
conference goers want theexhibit hall to be open longer,
(11:45):
um, more hours and more days,and exhibitors, surprisingly,
want the exhibit hall open lesshours and for fewer days.
Right, so you have these, youknow.
But but you, you need thesepeople to come together, because
that's sort of part of thepoint.
And so it's like how do youmake these two sides happy?
And so it's like, how do youmake these two sides happy?
(12:07):
So to me that was verystressful to make these two
sides happy, particularly whenone side of your marketplace is
free and the other side of themarketplace is who pays?
And it is very tempting tocater to the paying side, to
(12:30):
cater to the paying side, butthat isn't.
Even though on the surface thatseems like the right thing to
do, it isn't always the rightthing to do.
You have to think about thepeople's motivations for why
they're there and what mattersto them, and you have to make
decisions, the right decisions,based on that, so you don't
alienate one side or the other.
So in some ways I don't missbeing totally responsible for
(12:52):
navigating or by myselfnavigating that we still
navigated it out, but I'm nottrying to navigate that by
myself navigate that by myself?
Ira (13:09):
Yeah, I'm thinking about, well, I don't have a Facebook
account, but like a social mediacompany that has, they have
users who are not the payingcustomer they're what they're
selling right and what they wantfrom that experience and then
they have advertisers who areactually paying them the dollars
and what those two groups wantfrom a social media company are
(13:29):
probably in massive oppositionfrom each other and they have to
navigate that in a way withoutum pissing one group off, and
they don't usually do that verywell.
I don't think, um, and it's noteasy to do either.
Yeah, that's super interesting.
I think for me, the thing that Idisliked the most about being a
(13:52):
founder was like sort of theloneliness of it at times.
You're, you know I was lucky atVetPrep that I had a great
little team, but most of ourtime we were, we were remote and
, um, and some of my otherexperiences has been more on my
own at times, and you know, whenthings are hard or challenging,
(14:20):
like you can call a friend oryou can talk to a loved one and
that's extremely helpful andvery much appreciated.
But you know, ultimately, likeyou sort of feel like you're on
your own and you have all theseworries and problems and
stresses that are sort ofuniquely yours to bear and that
you have a lot of responsibilityfor, and so that for me I think
(14:42):
was the hardest part.
So that for me I think was thehardest part.
I can sort of relate to yourcomments about some of the
challenges of kind of having tobe a salesman for the product
and, yeah, mostly tried to takethe approach of, you know, try
to build something that's goingto sell itself, which we were
lucky enough to do at vet prep.
(15:02):
But I have certainly grown inmy evolution and thinking about
just the whole concept of ofsales.
Um, never really thought of mysale myself as a salesman, as a
veterinarian, but you know Imean of course a hundred percent
are and ifyou can't sell your services to
a client, you cannot help theanimal that's in front of you,
(15:24):
like yeah, it's just a fact.
And and so I have come to verymuch appreciate the skill set of
sales and and it's not me, Ithink, is sort of the thing that
always kind of makes me alittle bit uneasy about that
(15:46):
sort of aspect of things butit's actually something I've
tried to develop in my own wayright as an entrepreneur, and I
think you sort of have to yeah,you do have to and I, you know,
I tried to develop it in veryformal ways by reading books and
listening to podcasts andtaking courses and things like
(16:07):
that.
Cindy (16:07):
But then you're right, there is, there is a way that
you can make it your own right,like make it your, your own,
your own style.
But I, I'm 100% with you on theloneliness piece, like that
Also, especially before I had ateam, when I was literally doing
(16:30):
it by myself, and you know,that was when it was nice to
talk to other entrepreneurs andbecause at least I was talking
to people who would get it right, they would understand, you
know, versus talking to, youknow, my family, who may or may
not truly understand what itfeels like.
But you're right, at the end ofthe day, it's yours alone to
(16:53):
bear, and that could be tricky,all right.
Ira (17:10):
Well, we have a tradition in every episode that at the end
of the episode, we take amoment to share a resource,
piece of advice, a mentor, abook, a tool that has helped you
along the way.
So I'll give you theopportunity to go first.
Cindy (17:32):
Okay, Well, I have a book I wanted to share and then I
have a quote.
Can I do?
Am I allowed to do both?
Ira (17:39):
You can do double duty.
Cindy (17:40):
Okay, so the book is called "Humor Seriously, why
humor is a secret weapon inbusiness and life.
Oh, I like it and I took acourse from this woman.
Okay, and so she is a.
Ira (17:55):
Do you know?
Cindy (17:56):
her name, yeah, Naomi Bagdonis and Jennifer Aker.
So they teach at Stanford andIvan Zak talked me into doing
the Stanford LEAD program, whichI, because he had done it, and
I did it and it was amazing andthis was one of the courses and
I'm so glad I took it.
But basically it's it's reallyabout how humor can lead to
(18:20):
increased trust, can you know,and can really move you forward
in business when it's usedappropriately.
And also I love the point thatthe bar is really low, because
business people tend to takethemselves too seriously and I
would say sometimes vet med doestoo Like.
I feel like in vet med there'slike all sorts of fodder for
(18:42):
humor, right.
Ira (18:44):
Absolutely.
We deal with some pretty grossstuff and if you can't have a
sense of humor about it likeyou're going to struggle.
Cindy (18:52):
And a lot of vets do have a sense of humor in veterinary
teams, right, but I also thinkthat there are ways that we
could, as a veterinaryprofession, lighten up.
So, anyway, this book was really, really impactful for me in the
class.
And then the quote is from SethGodin, and I pulled it up
because I was anticipating thisquestion.
(19:12):
But so he's talking about, youknow, having something win big
and fast, right, like a businesswin big and fast or not, and
that big and fast and goingviral quickly and having
everyone catch on really quicklyisn't always the best way, and
(19:34):
sometimes I needed to bereminded of that, and so this
came in my inbox one day and Iprinted it out and look at it
all the time.
But the first challenge isfinding the focus and patience
to work on the asynchronizedadoption of important ideas, and
the second is to not sacrificethe larger goal in a frenzied
hustle for the big break.
(19:55):
And I needed to read that overand over, because it's easy to
lose sight of that when you feellike I got to do this fast and
you know all these other peopleare doing it too and you know it
is easy to get very stressedout by that idea.
Ira (20:12):
So that's, that's really cool.
Um, I was just thinking aboutsome of your comments about
humor and the in the businessworld and I remember that, um, I
used to tell people when theywould be interviewing for
positions in my veterinaryoncology office and, as you
might imagine, veterinaryoncology is certainly one of
those places that can be veryserious and heavy at times but I
(20:37):
think it's actually also aplace where, like, frankly, like
humor is still needed at timesto sort of, you know, just to
kind of deal with the realitiesthat you deal with.
And I used to tell people thatyou know we take our job very
seriously, but we don't takeourselves that seriously.
Stacee (20:57):
Right.
Ira (20:59):
And I thought that was sort of how I would try to look at
things.
And you know, as you know, likeI can behave professionally and
I genuinely care a lot aboutpeople and their pets and want
to help them and, at the sametime, like being able to sort of
recognize when things arehappening that you know they
(21:19):
just have to be able to sort ofrecognize when things are
happening.
That you know you just have tobe able to sometimes chuckle out
a bit and yeah, otherwiseyou're just going to drown.
Yeah, my influential personthat I want to mention for
today's episode is Cheryl London.
Cheryl London is a veterinaryoncologist you know, really
(21:44):
unique, strong personality andone of the sort of finest
scientists and just kind of youknow knowledgeable person when
it comes to all of the molecularstuff that goes into cancer
biology.
And what I remember the mostabout my time working with her
(22:07):
was her ability, without anynotes or any sort of you know
prompting and preparation, tojust kind of go up to a
whiteboard and start to likedraw a cell and a detailed sort
of molecular pathway and talkabout how a certain you know
(22:27):
drug or agent you know wouldwork and would have a specific
effect or what have you, and itjust kind of solidified for me
this notion that when you reallyreally know something extremely
well, like you can explain itin ways that you know make sense
(22:50):
.
And I think you know there'splenty of sort of quotes about
this, you know from I thinkEinstein has a quote that along
the lines of like, if, um, ifyou can't explain something very
well, you must not know it wellenough, or something like that,
right, um, but uh, yeah, thatwas what.
One of the things that that sheimpressed upon me was like you
(23:13):
really want to know what you'retalking about at such a detailed
level that like you could go upwithout any notes and basically
draw the whole thing out, andthen you will have the ability
to sort of explain, explainthings to anybody, right, um?
Cindy (23:29):
and I always, um, yeah, think about that from time to
time, and I appreciate her formany reasons, but that included
yes, I, I do remember her fromfrom Davis, but, yeah, yeah,
that is a skill and that is whenyou you've taken the time to
(23:49):
not be superficial about knowingeverything, but to dive deep on
on something.
Those of us that areprofessional samplers like
myself, you know, we may not beable to draw things out like
that.
Ira (24:04):
You know what you?
Know, Well, Cindy, it's beenamazing to have the opportunity
to catch up and chat, and Ithank you for your time and for
joining us on these episodes ofthe Accidental Entrepreneurs.
Cindy (24:16):
Super fun.
Thank you so much for having me.
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