July 1, 2024 • 21 mins
This week, we dive into the labyrinth of startup organizational structures. Discover the sometimes arbitrary nature of assigning titles and roles within a small team, where everyone is juggling multiple hats. Learn about a friend's innovative approach to structuring roles based on compensation, and weigh its pros and cons with us. Finally, we explore how rigid titles can limit contributions and why a more flexible approach might just be the key to a thriving startup.
Ira's tip of the week: Lucid Chart
Stacee's tip of the week: Send thank you notes to your employees
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stacee (00:00):
Well, good morning Ira.
How are you doing?
Ira (00:02):
I am doing pretty well.
How have you been?
Stacee (00:05):
Been doing good.
We made the trek back fromArizona to Colorado with the
whole herd.
Ira (00:14):
Yeah, yeah, how was the stampede?
Stacee (00:19):
So it's about an eight-hour drive and we need two
big trucks and trailers driveand we need two big trucks and
trailers to you know put all thesix horses, four chickens, two
dogs, cat and all the other gearthat these animals and
ourselves require.
So it went really good, exceptfor two hiccups.
(00:39):
We had got up really early Imean we've been working about
two days to get prepped to moveback and we had everything
loaded, everything.
The cat was in the truck, wejust had to put the dogs in
there and the truck was runningand the horses are loaded and
everyone's ready.
And the kitty stepped on thedoor lock and locked the keys
(01:02):
and the phones and himself inthe truck.
So that was hurdle number oneon purpose.
And then I was like trying toget Kitty to come step on it.
Like oh Kitty, if you couldjust step on it again, it would
be so nice.
Ira (01:20):
Oh, if you had recorded that it would have been just
brilliant.
Stacee (01:23):
I'll have, I'll post a picture on our social media of
kitty and the truck and we'reall like.
And then the only other hiccupis when we got home we were
unloading everything and one ofthe horses stepped on Ellis's
foot and broke his little pinkytoe, which you would think is
not a big deal.
But it turns out like a toe isnot something you think about
(01:47):
ever, unless you break it, andthen it's all you think about.
So he ended up having to cut abig hole out of his tennis shoe
so he can walk by.
Anyways, the big.
The best news is all theanimals are fine and we're back
home.
Ira (02:03):
Eventually, the car got unlocked.
Stacee (02:06):
Yeah, eventually.
What have you been up to?
Ira (02:10):
Oh, it's been actually like a crazy week, mostly, um,
because of stuff going on withmy wife.
She had the White HouseCorrespondence Association
dinner on Saturday, which is areally big event if you're a DC
person.
They call it the nerd prom here.
Um, and you know everybody thenerd prom, um, and all the
(02:31):
journalists and people you knowdressed up for this black tie
thing.
You know president and vicepresident are there and um, last
year my wife was the presidentof the organization, so I was
there with my family and a bunchof friends, and this year I had
decided I wasn't going to gobecause my kids wanted to go see
a rock concert.
That was the same day and I waslike you know, like that's all
(02:54):
right, like I don't need to go.
But then my wife actually won ajournalism award for excellent
reporting under deadlinepressure, for a trip that she
did with the president, and likeI really should be there to
support her and cheer her on forher award.
But, the kids were super excitedabout going to this thing and
anyway.
(03:14):
So I miss the whole.
Dress up in a tux the whole, goon the red carpet and get a
fancy picture and shake handswith the president.
Vice president, my wife met Idon't know Scarlett Johansson
and Chris Pratt and a bunch offamous people.
Stacee (03:31):
Oh, my God.
Ira (03:32):
I'm not actually sad about missing any of that stuff, but I
do feel really badly aboutmissing out on seeing my wife
get her award.
It is televised so I got tokind of see it.
But although it's really coolto like talk about going to
these things and meeting people,like if you're someone like me
who mostly excels in, you know,being embarrassing and awkward
(03:57):
in any of these situations, likeit's actually like not that
much fun to be there, like it'sjust kind of cool to say you
were there right and I don'tknow.
Stacee (04:07):
It sounds pretty cool to be there it's weird.
Ira (04:12):
It's weird like it's it's cool.
But if you're me like, it'ssuper obvious that you don't
belong here it's like you don'tfit in, mister right one of
these people is not like all theother beautiful fancy people,
right?
Stacee (04:31):
I have a question for you.
So, like you know, as a vet,when you go I don't know I go to
barbecue and some rando I don'teven know will come up to me
and ask me a question abouttheir dog.
Does this happen at those kindof fancy events to you?
Oh?
Ira (04:46):
Yeah, of course it does right.
Like here's my husband's.
Like, oh, like, what do you do?
And they're expecting you to be.
Like oh, I'm on TV, so like,yeah, whatever.
And it's like, oh, I'm aveterinarian.
And like, oh, let me ask youabout my cat.
Can you tell me why she's been?
You know, being outside thelitter box, I'm usually like, no
(05:08):
, I specialize in oncology, butthanks for asking.
Stacee (05:12):
Those are the worst, especially when they tell you
I've taken my pet to the doctorthree different vets and they
can't figure it out.
So let me ask you, you.
Ira (05:21):
I'm meeting for the first time at this party and has never
seen my pet Like you probablywill have to answer.
You're going to tell me thetruth.
Everybody else is hiding thetruth.
Stacee (05:29):
Yeah, everyone's hiding and it's some little pill.
You know about that, no oneelse does.
I always preface those withlike I don't think you're going
to like my answer very much.
Ira (05:42):
Do you ever stop telling people that you're a vet?
Because of that?
Stacee (05:45):
Yeah, I do sometimes when I'm just like too tired,
but then I feel weird about thatbecause I'm not very good at
lying at all, so it's probablyeven weirder that I I don't know
.
Ira (05:59):
For for a long time I was doing cancer research primarily
and not acting a vet, and so Ijust started telling people I
was a scientist and nobody askedme anything.
Once you said that, Like itworks so good, that's a good one
.
Stacee (06:15):
Well, let's get into it.
Today, the question of the dayis how did you decide on titles
for your startup?
Which is kind of a weirdquestion, I think, but you gotta
do it, you gotta do it and itturns out it's one of those
things you don't think matters,but maybe you end up realizing
(06:36):
it does what's your story withit.
Ira (06:38):
Yeah, you know, so company really just started with me and
my co-founders and I don't knowthat we really gave that much
thought to titles.
We were all kind of co-founders.
That was pretty much our title.
When you fill out your officialdocuments, when you create a
company, I think somebody has tobe the president and somebody
has to be the secretary, and sowe gave one of my partners the
(06:59):
title of president and wethought it was super funny that
we gave one of my partners thetitle of secretary.
We just always called him oursecretary for the next 15 years.
But yeah, we really didn't havereal titles.
And then when we started hiringsome people, we just had, you
know so, and so did customersupport, and you know, when we
brought in other people, it'sreally hard because at a startup
(07:23):
you don't really just have ajob where you're in charge of.
You know you're not in chargeof a team, you're doing
everything yourself and you'renot really in charge of a
department because you're one ofthe few people at the company
you kind of do a little bit ofeverything.
Yes, I think we it's someonethat we gave a title, something
like operations manager, which Idon't even know what that means
(07:47):
.
It just kind of means you dealwith everything, right, and you
know like and we didn't evenreally know or think too much
about, I probably couldn't evennow tell you like, oh, like,
what's the difference between amanager and a director or a head
of or a VP of it's?
(08:09):
I guess If you have a bigorganization, there's sort of
like hierarchy.
Probably a VP oversees some ofthose other people who might
oversee some other people.
But at a startup, yeah, that'sjust not the way things work, so
it's pretty tricky.
How about for you?
Stacee (08:26):
Yeah, it was super hard because I didn't like you.
I didn't really care abouttitles at all and in fact when I
hired the first handful ofpeople, I'm like, ah, you can
give yourself your own titlewhatever you want, cause I
really don't care, just do likethis.
All this work.
There's just like so much workand there's so fragmented.
It's not like you can givesomeone a specific title.
(08:49):
But, um, and then I also wasconfused or not sure how I'm
supposed to.
Am I supposed to have an orgchart?
And then I, over time, fill inthe blanks with people, or do I
start at the top, like I waslike everybody's vice president,
like who cares?
Like there's only five of us.
So you can be VP of customers,you can be VP of operations, you
(09:14):
can be VP of operations.
But this ultimately causesproblems too, because you're
sort of sending off this messageor sort of suggesting that if
you come in at the ground,you're going to rise up, like
you're going to be lifted upover time into this leadership,
while everyone else is coming inunder you is how I think people
(09:36):
perceive it, me included.
But then it doesn't work outwell that way, because these
people aren't necessarily VPquality when you have a team of
a hundred, or you know even ateam of 50 there.
Maybe they don't.
They're not great.
You know managing other peopleand I don't.
They're not great.
You know managing other peopleand I don't know.
(09:57):
And then you have to demotethem a little by adjusting their
title down, which sucks.
So yeah, it's hard.
I don't know what the rightanswer is.
For what would you tell peoplethey're starting out?
Ira (10:12):
let me tell you about an idea.
I was talking to a friend ofmine who's kind of building the
org for for his company and Ithought it was interesting.
I haven't decided if it's agood idea, but I might want to
steal it at some point, uh.
But he's decided that like hewants to sort of tier it based
on basically just just umcompensation level for people.
(10:32):
He wants all the people thathave sort of a c-suite title, a
chief title, they're all goingto have the exact same
compensation, like everybodythat has a VP title they're like
the next level down, or what?
have you, like everybody thathas a director title, like every
director has this, and wants tojust kind of create a bit more
transparency and sort of clearlike oh, like if you're going to
(10:54):
get a promotion from you know,a manager role to a senior
director role, like that, likethere's really no additional
negotiation, like this is kindof what it is and, and there is
opportunity potentially for somegrowth.
But but that level, if you will,it kind of defines your
compensation and vice versa,which I thought like it's pretty
(11:16):
interesting.
Uh, I could poke some holes in,like why that might not be the
best idea, but there actuallyare a lot, of, a lot of things
about it that I think are prettygood.
What do you think?
Stacee (11:27):
That's interesting.
The company I ended up sellingto they had pay bands where you
know, there's a range for allthese different titles, which
makes it really extra emphasison the title and not necessarily
the work that goes along withthe title.
And also I guess I find that alot of really great people that
(11:51):
you find work in your companyhave a diverse set of skills and
so you end up pigeonholing themand saying like, well, this is
my official title.
Therefore I can't do thatbecause that's not really in my
neck of the woods anymore.
So I don't know the whole titlething.
(12:11):
I try to tell people, don'tworry about the titles, like
you'll still get your, like I'mgonna pay you what you're worth.
I try to always to pay peopleas much as I possibly could, but
it did matter to them the title.
So I just wish the titles weremore vague as all like.
But I don't even know how youdo this.
So this is maybe a really badepisode of the show today,
(12:33):
because we don't have any realgreat advice, other than it's
hard.
Ira (12:39):
Yeah, I mean my, my experience managing veterinary
clinic, which I know you share,would tell me that you know what
I just told you would neverwork in a veterinary hospital.
Right, Like, yeah, I I ran theclinics but, like you know, like
our busiest, hardest workingand most productive
veterinarians like they mademore than I did Right Like that
and they should, they deserve to.
(13:00):
Right and it just I don't thinkit could work in that type of
an organizational setup.
I suppose anything could workif you had the right people for
it.
An organizational setup Isuppose anything could work if
you had the right people for it.
But yeah, I think it may reallyjust depend on the context and
(13:21):
I think there are situationslike that where somebody that's
not a manager, a director, a VPor anything like, actually could
be one of the most valuablepeople and the highest
compensated people in the org.
Yeah, I'd say just for Like ifyou had an awesome salesman like
that's selling, you know, outof his boots for your product.
(13:42):
Like you, you need that person.
You probably need to compensatethem at whatever it takes to
keep them and keep them happy.
Stacee (13:50):
Yeah for sure.
And maybe it just comes down tohaving open, direct
conversations with these peoplewhen you hire them, to tell them
I don't know where we're going,I don't know how big this place
is going to get, I don't knowwhere you're going to fall in
the org chart when we starthiring more people.
You could see people go underyou, you could see people go
(14:12):
over you, and I think if I hadsaid that, I could have saved
myself a lot of heartache downthe road.
Also, try to keep people at thebottom of the org chart as long
as you can, until you promotethem to be the VP once you have,
you know, 20 employees orhowever many you need.
(14:35):
I think I would give myselfthat advice if I could talk to
my older self or younger self.
Ira (14:47):
That might be good advice.
I do think that startups tendto create relatively flat
organizational structures, um,maybe for that reason because so
many people are doing so manythings and everybody's working
hard, and so you kind of put alot of people kind of on that
same level, if you will, um, andthere's not as much need to
have complicated managementstructure either.
But ultimately that may lead tosort of the problems that you
(15:09):
just alluded to of having sortof unclear opportunities for
kind of how things will changeas the organization grows.
So that might be good advicewould be to try not to do that
as hard as that is would be totry not to do that as hard as
that is.
Stacee (15:26):
Yeah.
Well, if anyone's listening andyou have some tips for how your
company assigned titles and orgchart early on, share them with
us on our LinkedIn page.
And if you are a person thatgot the fortune or misfortune of
working for a startup andsomeone bestowed a title on you
that was odd and peculiarowed atitle on you that was odd and
peculiar, Let us know what youthought about that too.
Ira (15:49):
Clearly we don't have a master.
Your advice is much appreciated.
Stacee (15:54):
Well, let's hop on over to where we're going to share
our favorite tip or trick orquote what do you have for us
today?
Ira (16:02):
Yeah, all this talk about org charts reminds me of this
tool that I used that actuallymade building org charts pretty
fun.
Stacee (16:12):
Oh, do share.
It is so hard to build it ifyou don't have a ruler and a
pencil.
Ira (16:19):
So this is a product called Lucidchart, which can be used
for all sorts of diagramming andfigures, a product called lucid
chart, which can be used forall sorts of diagramming and
figures.
But um actually is maybe theonly tool that I've ever used
that made it easy and fun tobuild an org chart and like move
people around and and changethings up in a way that didn't
feel like, oh, I've got to likeredo everything and um.
(16:40):
I once had a position where itjust seemed like the org was in
constant sort of flux in termsof how it was organized and one
of my jobs was to keep track ofthe org chart, and being able to
do it there helped me keep mysanity.
Stacee (16:53):
Oh, that's a great tip.
My tip for this week is goingto be you know, when you can't
get the title right or you haveall this, get the title right,
or you have all this one thingyou can do to show your employee
how much you care about them isto send them thank you notes,
or notes, and not just on theirbirthday or their work reversary
(17:16):
, but when it's out of the blueand they do something really
amazing.
I have found that, taking thetime I mean, in how much time
are we talking five minutesmaybe it takes me more time to
find their physical mailingaddress than to actually write
the note.
So I ended up over time justhaving a cheat sheet of
everyone's mailing address.
(17:37):
But you can just write a littlenote to them and thank them for
something and put it in thereal mail.
A little note to them and thankthem for something and put it
in the real mail, and then theyget it and it's like such a
treat.
Well, and one thing thathappened to me is a lot of my
employees would save those cards, which I thought was weird, but
they would tell me like, oh, Isaved it.
(17:58):
It's on my bulletin board infront of my desk and I'm like it
is, and it was just a littlecard.
I wrote nothing fancy.
So then what I ended up doingwas I would pre-address the
envelopes and stamp them, and II try to be mindful about doing
that.
Ira (18:19):
So that's a tip.
Somewhere in here.
I'm not going to go looking forit right now.
I have not like every singlesingle one, but probably like 70
cards from clients.
Um, you know, when you're a vet, like if you do a pretty good
job and you're a pretty nice guy, the clients occasionally, um
think to send you a nice noteand and it is crazy, like how,
(18:41):
how great it makes you feel andand sometimes it's you know from
the people that you definitelyfeel like you went above and
beyond for, but most of the timeit's unexpected, like you know
just somebody like oh, I had noidea that this person
(19:02):
appreciated what I did for themas much as enough to take the
time to write me a special note,right, um, and um, I guess I'm
like, I'm like your crazyemployees.
I, I keep a bunch of them and,um, I don't I can't remember the
last time I looked at him, butyou know, every once in a while,
when you're having a bad day orwondering you know where you
(19:23):
went wrong.
You go back and you're like ohyeah, like I, I really helped
all these people and made a bigdifference, and that's pretty
cool.
Stacee (19:31):
Yeah, and the trick is it's not an email and it's not a
text, it's a real card with uh,it doesn't even have to be.
It could be a sticky note, Ifound doesn't even have to be a,
like a greeting card oranything.
God don't waste your money onthat.
Um, just pop it in the mail,they'll love it, okay.
Ira (19:51):
All right, great tip.
Stacee (20:10):
Well, let's spin the wheel and see what next week's
adventure will share.
Ira (20:18):
How did you start marketing your company?
Stacee (20:20):
Oh, this is one of the hardest things to do when you're
starting out, or even mid orlate stage, I think it takes up
so much budget and it's soconfusing where you get your ROI
Indeed.
Ira (20:35):
I look forward to hearing about how you figured this all
out, Stacee.
Stacee (20:39):
Oh yeah, it's so easy.
All right, we'll see you nextweek.
Well, good morning Ira.
How are you doing?
Ira (00:02):
I am doing pretty well.
How have you been?
Stacee (00:05):
Been doing good.
We made the trek back fromArizona to Colorado with the
whole herd.
Ira (00:14):
Yeah, yeah, how was the stampede?
Stacee (00:19):
So it's about an eight-hour drive and we need two
big trucks and trailers driveand we need two big trucks and
trailers to you know put all thesix horses, four chickens, two
dogs, cat and all the other gearthat these animals and
ourselves require.
So it went really good, exceptfor two hiccups.
(00:39):
We had got up really early Imean we've been working about
two days to get prepped to moveback and we had everything
loaded, everything.
The cat was in the truck, wejust had to put the dogs in
there and the truck was runningand the horses are loaded and
everyone's ready.
And the kitty stepped on thedoor lock and locked the keys
(01:02):
and the phones and himself inthe truck.
So that was hurdle number oneon purpose.
And then I was like trying toget Kitty to come step on it.
Like oh Kitty, if you couldjust step on it again, it would
be so nice.
Ira (01:20):
Oh, if you had recorded that it would have been just
brilliant.
Stacee (01:23):
I'll have, I'll post a picture on our social media of
kitty and the truck and we'reall like.
And then the only other hiccupis when we got home we were
unloading everything and one ofthe horses stepped on Ellis's
foot and broke his little pinkytoe, which you would think is
not a big deal.
But it turns out like a toe isnot something you think about
(01:47):
ever, unless you break it, andthen it's all you think about.
So he ended up having to cut abig hole out of his tennis shoe
so he can walk by.
Anyways, the big.
The best news is all theanimals are fine and we're back
home.
Ira (02:03):
Eventually, the car got unlocked.
Stacee (02:06):
Yeah, eventually.
What have you been up to?
Ira (02:10):
Oh, it's been actually like a crazy week, mostly, um,
because of stuff going on withmy wife.
She had the White HouseCorrespondence Association
dinner on Saturday, which is areally big event if you're a DC
person.
They call it the nerd prom here.
Um, and you know everybody thenerd prom, um, and all the
(02:31):
journalists and people you knowdressed up for this black tie
thing.
You know president and vicepresident are there and um, last
year my wife was the presidentof the organization, so I was
there with my family and a bunchof friends, and this year I had
decided I wasn't going to gobecause my kids wanted to go see
a rock concert.
That was the same day and I waslike you know, like that's all
(02:54):
right, like I don't need to go.
But then my wife actually won ajournalism award for excellent
reporting under deadlinepressure, for a trip that she
did with the president, and likeI really should be there to
support her and cheer her on forher award.
But, the kids were super excitedabout going to this thing and
anyway.
(03:14):
So I miss the whole.
Dress up in a tux the whole, goon the red carpet and get a
fancy picture and shake handswith the president.
Vice president, my wife met Idon't know Scarlett Johansson
and Chris Pratt and a bunch offamous people.
Stacee (03:31):
Oh, my God.
Ira (03:32):
I'm not actually sad about missing any of that stuff, but I
do feel really badly aboutmissing out on seeing my wife
get her award.
It is televised so I got tokind of see it.
But although it's really coolto like talk about going to
these things and meeting people,like if you're someone like me
who mostly excels in, you know,being embarrassing and awkward
(03:57):
in any of these situations, likeit's actually like not that
much fun to be there, like it'sjust kind of cool to say you
were there right and I don'tknow.
Stacee (04:07):
It sounds pretty cool to be there it's weird.
Ira (04:12):
It's weird like it's it's cool.
But if you're me like, it'ssuper obvious that you don't
belong here it's like you don'tfit in, mister right one of
these people is not like all theother beautiful fancy people,
right?
Stacee (04:31):
I have a question for you.
So, like you know, as a vet,when you go I don't know I go to
barbecue and some rando I don'teven know will come up to me
and ask me a question abouttheir dog.
Does this happen at those kindof fancy events to you?
Oh?
Ira (04:46):
Yeah, of course it does right.
Like here's my husband's.
Like, oh, like, what do you do?
And they're expecting you to be.
Like oh, I'm on TV, so like,yeah, whatever.
And it's like, oh, I'm aveterinarian.
And like, oh, let me ask youabout my cat.
Can you tell me why she's been?
You know, being outside thelitter box, I'm usually like, no
(05:08):
, I specialize in oncology, butthanks for asking.
Stacee (05:12):
Those are the worst, especially when they tell you
I've taken my pet to the doctorthree different vets and they
can't figure it out.
So let me ask you, you.
Ira (05:21):
I'm meeting for the first time at this party and has never
seen my pet Like you probablywill have to answer.
You're going to tell me thetruth.
Everybody else is hiding thetruth.
Stacee (05:29):
Yeah, everyone's hiding and it's some little pill.
You know about that, no oneelse does.
I always preface those withlike I don't think you're going
to like my answer very much.
Ira (05:42):
Do you ever stop telling people that you're a vet?
Because of that?
Stacee (05:45):
Yeah, I do sometimes when I'm just like too tired,
but then I feel weird about thatbecause I'm not very good at
lying at all, so it's probablyeven weirder that I I don't know
.
Ira (05:59):
For for a long time I was doing cancer research primarily
and not acting a vet, and so Ijust started telling people I
was a scientist and nobody askedme anything.
Once you said that, Like itworks so good, that's a good one
.
Stacee (06:15):
Well, let's get into it.
Today, the question of the dayis how did you decide on titles
for your startup?
Which is kind of a weirdquestion, I think, but you gotta
do it, you gotta do it and itturns out it's one of those
things you don't think matters,but maybe you end up realizing
(06:36):
it does what's your story withit.
Ira (06:38):
Yeah, you know, so company really just started with me and
my co-founders and I don't knowthat we really gave that much
thought to titles.
We were all kind of co-founders.
That was pretty much our title.
When you fill out your officialdocuments, when you create a
company, I think somebody has tobe the president and somebody
has to be the secretary, and sowe gave one of my partners the
(06:59):
title of president and wethought it was super funny that
we gave one of my partners thetitle of secretary.
We just always called him oursecretary for the next 15 years.
But yeah, we really didn't havereal titles.
And then when we started hiringsome people, we just had, you
know so, and so did customersupport, and you know, when we
brought in other people, it'sreally hard because at a startup
(07:23):
you don't really just have ajob where you're in charge of.
You know you're not in chargeof a team, you're doing
everything yourself and you'renot really in charge of a
department because you're one ofthe few people at the company
you kind of do a little bit ofeverything.
Yes, I think we it's someonethat we gave a title, something
like operations manager, which Idon't even know what that means
(07:47):
.
It just kind of means you dealwith everything, right, and you
know like and we didn't evenreally know or think too much
about, I probably couldn't evennow tell you like, oh, like,
what's the difference between amanager and a director or a head
of or a VP of it's?
(08:09):
I guess If you have a bigorganization, there's sort of
like hierarchy.
Probably a VP oversees some ofthose other people who might
oversee some other people.
But at a startup, yeah, that'sjust not the way things work, so
it's pretty tricky.
How about for you?
Stacee (08:26):
Yeah, it was super hard because I didn't like you.
I didn't really care abouttitles at all and in fact when I
hired the first handful ofpeople, I'm like, ah, you can
give yourself your own titlewhatever you want, cause I
really don't care, just do likethis.
All this work.
There's just like so much workand there's so fragmented.
It's not like you can givesomeone a specific title.
(08:49):
But, um, and then I also wasconfused or not sure how I'm
supposed to.
Am I supposed to have an orgchart?
And then I, over time, fill inthe blanks with people, or do I
start at the top, like I waslike everybody's vice president,
like who cares?
Like there's only five of us.
So you can be VP of customers,you can be VP of operations, you
(09:14):
can be VP of operations.
But this ultimately causesproblems too, because you're
sort of sending off this messageor sort of suggesting that if
you come in at the ground,you're going to rise up, like
you're going to be lifted upover time into this leadership,
while everyone else is coming inunder you is how I think people
(09:36):
perceive it, me included.
But then it doesn't work outwell that way, because these
people aren't necessarily VPquality when you have a team of
a hundred, or you know even ateam of 50 there.
Maybe they don't.
They're not great.
You know managing other peopleand I don't.
They're not great.
You know managing other peopleand I don't know.
(09:57):
And then you have to demotethem a little by adjusting their
title down, which sucks.
So yeah, it's hard.
I don't know what the rightanswer is.
For what would you tell peoplethey're starting out?
Ira (10:12):
let me tell you about an idea.
I was talking to a friend ofmine who's kind of building the
org for for his company and Ithought it was interesting.
I haven't decided if it's agood idea, but I might want to
steal it at some point, uh.
But he's decided that like hewants to sort of tier it based
on basically just just umcompensation level for people.
(10:32):
He wants all the people thathave sort of a c-suite title, a
chief title, they're all goingto have the exact same
compensation, like everybodythat has a VP title they're like
the next level down, or what?
have you, like everybody thathas a director title, like every
director has this, and wants tojust kind of create a bit more
transparency and sort of clearlike oh, like if you're going to
(10:54):
get a promotion from you know,a manager role to a senior
director role, like that, likethere's really no additional
negotiation, like this is kindof what it is and, and there is
opportunity potentially for somegrowth.
But but that level, if you will,it kind of defines your
compensation and vice versa,which I thought like it's pretty
(11:16):
interesting.
Uh, I could poke some holes in,like why that might not be the
best idea, but there actuallyare a lot, of, a lot of things
about it that I think are prettygood.
What do you think?
Stacee (11:27):
That's interesting.
The company I ended up sellingto they had pay bands where you
know, there's a range for allthese different titles, which
makes it really extra emphasison the title and not necessarily
the work that goes along withthe title.
And also I guess I find that alot of really great people that
(11:51):
you find work in your companyhave a diverse set of skills and
so you end up pigeonholing themand saying like, well, this is
my official title.
Therefore I can't do thatbecause that's not really in my
neck of the woods anymore.
So I don't know the whole titlething.
(12:11):
I try to tell people, don'tworry about the titles, like
you'll still get your, like I'mgonna pay you what you're worth.
I try to always to pay peopleas much as I possibly could, but
it did matter to them the title.
So I just wish the titles weremore vague as all like.
But I don't even know how youdo this.
So this is maybe a really badepisode of the show today,
(12:33):
because we don't have any realgreat advice, other than it's
hard.
Ira (12:39):
Yeah, I mean my, my experience managing veterinary
clinic, which I know you share,would tell me that you know what
I just told you would neverwork in a veterinary hospital.
Right, Like, yeah, I I ran theclinics but, like you know, like
our busiest, hardest workingand most productive
veterinarians like they mademore than I did Right Like that
and they should, they deserve to.
(13:00):
Right and it just I don't thinkit could work in that type of
an organizational setup.
I suppose anything could workif you had the right people for
it.
An organizational setup Isuppose anything could work if
you had the right people for it.
But yeah, I think it may reallyjust depend on the context and
(13:21):
I think there are situationslike that where somebody that's
not a manager, a director, a VPor anything like, actually could
be one of the most valuablepeople and the highest
compensated people in the org.
Yeah, I'd say just for Like ifyou had an awesome salesman like
that's selling, you know, outof his boots for your product.
(13:42):
Like you, you need that person.
You probably need to compensatethem at whatever it takes to
keep them and keep them happy.
Stacee (13:50):
Yeah for sure.
And maybe it just comes down tohaving open, direct
conversations with these peoplewhen you hire them, to tell them
I don't know where we're going,I don't know how big this place
is going to get, I don't knowwhere you're going to fall in
the org chart when we starthiring more people.
You could see people go underyou, you could see people go
(14:12):
over you, and I think if I hadsaid that, I could have saved
myself a lot of heartache downthe road.
Also, try to keep people at thebottom of the org chart as long
as you can, until you promotethem to be the VP once you have,
you know, 20 employees orhowever many you need.
(14:35):
I think I would give myselfthat advice if I could talk to
my older self or younger self.
Ira (14:47):
That might be good advice.
I do think that startups tendto create relatively flat
organizational structures, um,maybe for that reason because so
many people are doing so manythings and everybody's working
hard, and so you kind of put alot of people kind of on that
same level, if you will, um, andthere's not as much need to
have complicated managementstructure either.
But ultimately that may lead tosort of the problems that you
(15:09):
just alluded to of having sortof unclear opportunities for
kind of how things will changeas the organization grows.
So that might be good advicewould be to try not to do that
as hard as that is would be totry not to do that as hard as
that is.
Stacee (15:26):
Yeah.
Well, if anyone's listening andyou have some tips for how your
company assigned titles and orgchart early on, share them with
us on our LinkedIn page.
And if you are a person thatgot the fortune or misfortune of
working for a startup andsomeone bestowed a title on you
that was odd and peculiarowed atitle on you that was odd and
peculiar, Let us know what youthought about that too.
Ira (15:49):
Clearly we don't have a master.
Your advice is much appreciated.
Stacee (15:54):
Well, let's hop on over to where we're going to share
our favorite tip or trick orquote what do you have for us
today?
Ira (16:02):
Yeah, all this talk about org charts reminds me of this
tool that I used that actuallymade building org charts pretty
fun.
Stacee (16:12):
Oh, do share.
It is so hard to build it ifyou don't have a ruler and a
pencil.
Ira (16:19):
So this is a product called Lucidchart, which can be used
for all sorts of diagramming andfigures, a product called lucid
chart, which can be used forall sorts of diagramming and
figures.
But um actually is maybe theonly tool that I've ever used
that made it easy and fun tobuild an org chart and like move
people around and and changethings up in a way that didn't
feel like, oh, I've got to likeredo everything and um.
(16:40):
I once had a position where itjust seemed like the org was in
constant sort of flux in termsof how it was organized and one
of my jobs was to keep track ofthe org chart, and being able to
do it there helped me keep mysanity.
Stacee (16:53):
Oh, that's a great tip.
My tip for this week is goingto be you know, when you can't
get the title right or you haveall this, get the title right,
or you have all this one thingyou can do to show your employee
how much you care about them isto send them thank you notes,
or notes, and not just on theirbirthday or their work reversary
(17:16):
, but when it's out of the blueand they do something really
amazing.
I have found that, taking thetime I mean, in how much time
are we talking five minutesmaybe it takes me more time to
find their physical mailingaddress than to actually write
the note.
So I ended up over time justhaving a cheat sheet of
everyone's mailing address.
(17:37):
But you can just write a littlenote to them and thank them for
something and put it in thereal mail.
A little note to them and thankthem for something and put it
in the real mail, and then theyget it and it's like such a
treat.
Well, and one thing thathappened to me is a lot of my
employees would save those cards, which I thought was weird, but
they would tell me like, oh, Isaved it.
(17:58):
It's on my bulletin board infront of my desk and I'm like it
is, and it was just a littlecard.
I wrote nothing fancy.
So then what I ended up doingwas I would pre-address the
envelopes and stamp them, and II try to be mindful about doing
that.
Ira (18:19):
So that's a tip.
Somewhere in here.
I'm not going to go looking forit right now.
I have not like every singlesingle one, but probably like 70
cards from clients.
Um, you know, when you're a vet, like if you do a pretty good
job and you're a pretty nice guy, the clients occasionally, um
think to send you a nice noteand and it is crazy, like how,
(18:41):
how great it makes you feel andand sometimes it's you know from
the people that you definitelyfeel like you went above and
beyond for, but most of the timeit's unexpected, like you know
just somebody like oh, I had noidea that this person
(19:02):
appreciated what I did for themas much as enough to take the
time to write me a special note,right, um, and um, I guess I'm
like, I'm like your crazyemployees.
I, I keep a bunch of them and,um, I don't I can't remember the
last time I looked at him, butyou know, every once in a while,
when you're having a bad day orwondering you know where you
(19:23):
went wrong.
You go back and you're like ohyeah, like I, I really helped
all these people and made a bigdifference, and that's pretty
cool.
Stacee (19:31):
Yeah, and the trick is it's not an email and it's not a
text, it's a real card with uh,it doesn't even have to be.
It could be a sticky note, Ifound doesn't even have to be a,
like a greeting card oranything.
God don't waste your money onthat.
Um, just pop it in the mail,they'll love it, okay.
Ira (19:51):
All right, great tip.
Stacee (20:10):
Well, let's spin the wheel and see what next week's
adventure will share.
Ira (20:18):
How did you start marketing your company?
Stacee (20:20):
Oh, this is one of the hardest things to do when you're
starting out, or even mid orlate stage, I think it takes up
so much budget and it's soconfusing where you get your ROI
Indeed.
Ira (20:35):
I look forward to hearing about how you figured this all
out, Stacee.
Stacee (20:39):
Oh yeah, it's so easy.
All right, we'll see you nextweek.
Popular Podcasts
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.