May 16, 2025 • 41 mins
Welcome to another episode of Aging Unfiltered. In this episode, we are honored to welcome Ashton Applewhite to the podcast for a great conversation about pushing back against ageism. Ashton is a passionate advocate, writer, and thought leader whose work focuses on dismantling ageism and promoting a more inclusive, vibrant vision of aging. She is also the author of This Chair Rocks: A Manifesto Against Ageism. Through her work, she challenges outdated narratives about aging and advocates for a more inclusive, age-positive society. In this powerful discussion we’ll dive into Ashton’s journey, explore the impact of ageism in today’s world, and discuss how we can all contribute to a future where people of all ages are empowered.
Resources
This Chair Rocks – Pushing Back Against Ageism
Ashton Applewhite: Let's end ageism | TED Talk
Ashton Applewhite (@thischairrocks) - Instagram
Contact Information
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Twitter: twitter.com/AgeGuide
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Podcast: ageguide.org/the-age-guide-podcast
Website: ageguide.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
.
Gretchen (00:04):
Welcome to the Age Guide, Perspectives on the Aging
Journey.
I'm your host, GretchenKnowlton, and this is Aging
Unfiltered, a series where weget real about ageism, how it
shapes our world, and what wecan do about it.
In today's episode, we'rethrilled to have Ashton
(00:25):
Applewhite with us.
Ashton is a passionateadvocate, writer, and thought
leader whose work focuses ondismantling ageism and promoting
a more inclusive, vibrantvision of aging.
She is the author of theacclaimed book, This Chair
Rocks, a manifesto againstageism, where she challenges the
(00:49):
stereotypes surrounding growingolder and calls for a cultural
shift that celebrates the valueand potential of older adults.
Ashton is also the speakerbehind a powerful TED Talk
called called Let's End Ageism,which has gained attention for
its compelling call to actionagainst age discrimination.
(01:12):
As a speaker, writer, andactivist, she's been featured in
the major publications like TheNew York Times, The Guardian,
and HuffPost.
In this episode, we'll diveinto Ashton's journey, explore
the impact of ageism in today'sworld, and discuss how we can
(01:33):
all contribute to a future wherepeople of all ages are
empowered.
Get ready for an inspiringconversation with one of the
leading voices in the movementto end ageism.
Welcome, Ashton.
Elizabeth (01:47):
Thank you, Gretchen.
Wow, I wish I could record thatfabulous intro and make
everyone use it.
Gretchen (01:53):
Oh my goodness, I cannot even begin to tell you
how thrilled we are to have youhere with us today.
You know, when our CEO, Marla,told us she was going to meet
you at that event in Illinois afew months back, she said, I'm
going to try to get her on thepodcast.
And we all just looked at eachother like, could we?
(02:15):
Would she?
That would be so incredible.
But Ashton, you said yes.
Here I am with pleasure.
And yes, and now here you aresitting with us.
And I just have to say, thisfeels like a dream come true.
We're so grateful that you'rehere.
My
Elizabeth (02:31):
pleasure.
Gretchen (02:32):
Thank you.
So let's dive in.
Let's start with a definition.
What is ageism?
Elizabeth (02:41):
Yes, definitions are always useful, although one of
the many reasons I'm optimisticabout our progress in this area
is that people don't usually nowlook, you know, totally blank
when I mention the word.
And by people, I mean like, youknow, Uber drivers and random
strangers.
Good! That's good news.
Yeah, it is.
The dictionary definition,which is needless to say, not up
(03:03):
to the job, is discriminationand stereotyping on the basis of
age.
I like the way the World HealthOrganization frames it.
Let's see if I can get itverbatim, that it consists of
how we think, feel, and actabout ourselves and others based
on age.
And the thinking piece is thestereotype part of it.
(03:27):
And the feeling piece is theprejudice part of it.
And how we act is thediscrimination piece of it,
right?
So it's complicated, like allinteresting things.
I mean, I like to say we arebeing ageist and we are all
ageist all the time.
No judgment.
Everyone is.
Everyone is full of bias.
Most of it's unconscious.
(03:48):
We are being ageist anytime wemake an assumption about someone
or a group of people on thebasis of how old we think they
are.
And I should add myself, aboutourselves as well.
Gretchen (04:00):
We internalized and externalized in how we think
about aging.
And probably the more werecognize that we're all ageist,
like you just said, the more wecan deal with it.
Elizabeth (04:10):
You know, I think it's less of a more proposition
as just an acknowledgement.
Oh, gee, this stuff has takenup residence in my head.
just like everyone else's.
And I need to makeself-awareness part of that.
It's like, and it's no funbecause that's really the hard
part because it's not great torealize that you have thoughts
(04:33):
that you weren't aware of thatare shaping your behavior in
ways you may not like.
The good news is that it reallyis like letting a genie out of
a bottle.
You can't get it back in.
Once you see it in yourself, ormaybe lifting a veil, then that
frees you up to see it.
around you in the way olderpeople are depicted in the way
(04:55):
we're missing entirely insometimes the way younger people
are depicted right any judgmentbasis of age and once and that
is really liberating becausethen you're like oh it's not
about how flawed i am it's aboutthe culture in which we live
and that means we can cometogether and do something about
it
Gretchen (05:14):
that's such a positive perspective on it So what are
some of the most commonmanifestations of ageism?
Where do you see it?
Elizabeth (05:24):
Well, I won't say where don't you see it.
Although, you know, that's abig question.
And of course it depends on,you know, what you do, what
matters to you, what shows youlook at, what things you listen
to, et cetera, which brings tomind the fact that we live in a
very age segregated society.
(05:46):
And the more homogenous yourfriend group is or your
workspace is, the easier it isfor stereotypes to go
unchallenged, whether they'reabout queer people, black
people, fat people, thin people,you name it.
If you are confronted withpeople who don't look like you,
it's much harder to hold on toany notion that they are all
(06:09):
Insert the adjective, right?
Well, and that I will saybrings to mind my least favorite
stereotype about older people,which is that at some point we
become old and cross someimaginary velvet rope and then
become lumped into this sad graygroup of the elderly.
(06:31):
When in fact, the longer welive, the more different.
From one another, we become.
All stereotypes are dumb andwrong and problematic, but they
are especially inaccurate whenit comes to age because every
newborn is unique, but every20-year-old, all 20-year-olds
(06:52):
are much more alikedevelopmentally, cognitively,
socially than 40-year-olds whoare way more alike than
70-year-olds and so on out.
So I would say if I had to pickone, that would be it.
As to where it appears, I don'tknow, give me a context.
I mean, or I'll challenge yourlisteners to think about where
(07:14):
we don't appear.
Is, you know, what about at aparty?
When you go to a party, arepeople all ages or is everyone
the same age?
You know, what about TV shows?
What about advertisements?
What about- What about in thegreeting card aisle?
Yeah, the greeting card aisleis really a toxic little stroll,
right?
And the question there is, youknow, why would you ever send a
(07:40):
card to someone, even if it'sfunny?
And some of them are funny ashell.
I, you know, I freelyacknowledge that.
But humor is a classic defensemechanism.
Where's your sense of humor,right?
And I will just say,discrimination is not funny.
Self-loathing is not funny.
You know, we know this from thebody acceptance movement.
(08:00):
We can learn a lot from that,right?
Or the disability justicemovement.
And would you ever, ever, eversend a card to someone making
fun of some other aspect of whatthey look like or who they
sleep with or their ethnicbackground?
Well, why should age get apass?
Yeah, why does it get a pass?
(08:22):
Because we haven't done quiteenough work yet.
Gretchen (08:26):
Okay, something that we need to be working on for
sure.
And
Elizabeth (08:30):
lots of people are.
If you don't mind, I will makea quick plug for something that
I make no money off, but calledthe Old School Hub.
And the website isoldschool.info.
It's searchable by topics, andone of the things you can find
on there is a whole line ofage-positive greeting cards, for
example.
So there are alternatives, andOld School is sort of a one-stop
(08:55):
shop, except everything is freeexcept the books for anything
ageism-related, for podcasts,handouts, videos, all sorts of
stuff.
Gretchen (09:06):
We have lots of resources and tools that you can
use.
Yes.
I've ordered some of thosegreeting cards before.
They're excellent.
I love it.
Yes.
So what inspired you to decidethat this was going to be your
thing, Ashton?
You were like, okay, I see thatthere's ageism in the world and
I'm going to tackle that andI'm going to become an
(09:28):
anti-ageism activist.
Elizabeth (09:31):
I was in it for the alliteration, you know?
Yeah.
I just wanted to give people atongue twister.
Right.
I wanted to have more A's.
Yeah.
Well, I will say, first of all,for any late bloomers who are
listening, I'm sure we latebloomers all think we're the
latest bloomers of all.
(09:51):
I imagine.
I mean, I have never, ever hada career plan.
I always know I'm in troublewhen someone wants my CV or my
resume.
And I'm like, well, this willmake no sense.
Yeah.
I mean, I didn't start writinguntil I was in my 40s.
Really?
Yeah, no.
And I never, ever in a millionyears thought I would become a
(10:13):
public speaker or a publicfigure.
I'm an introvert.
I like to be alone.
But ha ha.
Yeah.
something happened and I'm veryhappy and proud that it did.
I can't, I won't pretendotherwise, but I don't think
anything about my path is veryinstructional for anyone but me.
(10:33):
I will also say I am ageneralist.
I think if I had a real job, Imight've been a journalist
because I think journalists areinterested in the full story of
things.
And if you had told me Youknow, 15 years ago, you'd be all
up in aging.
I would have said, ew, why do Iwant to think about something
(10:53):
sad and depressing that oldpeople do?
And aging is not something thatold people do.
It's something old people do doit, but so do young people.
So we all are doing it everytime we wake up, right?
And it touches on every fieldof study.
And it touches on every aspectof being human.
But I didn't know that when I'm72 now.
(11:16):
And I was in my mid-50s when Ilooked in the mirror and went,
oh, this getting old thing, it'shappening to me.
And I think it's hard for allof us to imagine that.
And I think that's human.
I think it's a little bitbecause we think it's icky and
we're afraid, many of us, butalso we age slowly.
It's genuinely hard to imaginebeing older.
(11:38):
And as species, we're not goodat it.
We're not good at saving.
We're not good at anticipatingthe future.
i went oh yeah it's happeningimagine i'm not the only human
being to get get a you know getout of jail free card and so
being nerdy i startedinterviewing people over 80 and
researching longevity andlearned within a matter of
(12:02):
months the facts that i startedmy ted talk out with a decade
later uh that that um most ofwhat i thought i knew about
later life was flat out wrong orway off base way too negative
or just not nuanced enough andit i had i started a blog um
(12:23):
that was back when blogging wasbig and it had a word cloud i
don't know if your folks willremember what that is but it
maps the size of the word withthe frequency of appearance and
it was obvious to me early onthat ageism was a big word and
was a reason, if not the reason,why we only ever hear one side
(12:44):
of the story.
And I want to say in giant,also capital letters, that we
need both sides of the story.
You know, a lot of people startto get old and they're like,
oh, this isn't so bad.
You know, it's not like what Iimagine.
And if I just eat enough kaleand do enough sit-ups, it's all
going to be great.
Well, maybe, but maybe not,right?
And it's really important notto sugarcoat it.
(13:05):
and to discuss the scary thingstoo, especially the loss of
physical function, your bodyworks less well, but also let's
contextualize them.
No one gets all the bad things,right?
And even more importantly, thereason I became obsessed with
the subject is because I am, Idon't know, I don't wanna say
politically oriented, but I havebeen interested in social
(13:29):
justice in various guises mywhole life.
And I started, to think aboutwhat the forces were that were
drowning out the positive stuff,right?
What are the forces andinterests and corporations that
want us to stay afraid, thatwant us to buy things we don't
(13:50):
need, and that want us to wantto divide old and young and et
cetera, et cetera.
I could go on for another halfan hour, but I'll wait for the
next question.
So I was off and running.
Gretchen (14:01):
So your perspective on aging is, has evolved over time
it sounds like it does itcontinue to evolve all the time
I mean you're doing this workyou're continuing to talk to
people and to do research and towrite about it is it continuing
to evolve oh my
Elizabeth (14:17):
gosh yes um I I hope I hope you believe me I'm not
very good at faking things umwhen I say it gets more
interesting all the time becauseI know more and I can ask
better questions or go moredeep, you know, go maybe, you
know, into, into betterwormholes.
Um, and, um, geez, I neverwanted to write a first book.
(14:41):
I, it was the hardest thingI've ever done.
I really thought I could dothis ageism thing without having
to write another book.
And then that didn't turn outto be the case.
And if God helped me, I everwrite another book.
I do not know how people popthem out every two years.
Um, all I have is the title anda couple of index cards, but
the title will be things I usedto say.
Oh, excellent.
(15:02):
Because I keep revising, right?
I keep thinking, oh, that's,you know, that's out of date.
I can think of a better way tosay it.
I now understand why that's notan okay way to say it.
And for me, That's superinteresting and super
gratifying.
So did that answer yourquestion or did
Gretchen (15:22):
I go down another road?
Yes, thank you.
And one of the things that Ithought was really interesting
in your book too is the way youtalked about the language that
we use to talk about aging.
Will you share a little bitabout the terms?
That's a
Elizabeth (15:36):
perfect follow-up.
Seniors, elderly.
Yeah, perfect follow-up,Gretchen, because language is a
moving target.
There are no, I really took mea long time to find my way.
I will tell you that betweenstarting this blog and figuring
out what my path was with many,many years of just plugging
(15:56):
away, not sure where I wasgoing, but knowing I was onto
something.
And one of the, I woke up inthe morning with, oh, I've got
the title, binaries are bad.
Now, that was not the title.
It was one of those geniusideas that when you wake up in
the morning is not genius.
But binaries are not ourfriends and right, wrong, good,
(16:19):
bad.
You know, the language you usemay not be right for me.
Take the word elder.
It's a beautiful word.
Indigenous cultures use it.
Some African-American, youknow, communities use it.
Those are not my cultures and Idon't use it, but there's
nothing wrong with it.
To take a less charitableexample, you know, I am a
(16:39):
geezer.
I'm a geezer.
I like being a geezer and I'mgoing to call myself a geezer.
If you want to call yourself ageezer, more power to you.
And I'm not being snarky,right?
Yeah, right.
Aging is complicated.
We need to do it in our ownway, at our own time, in our own
speed.
So with some obvious historicalexamples, there are no rules.
(17:02):
I will say that on old school,oldschool.info, search for
language.
There are some really, reallyexcellent guides to non-ageist
language.
I don't love elderly.
It's elderly is a perfectlyokay word, but in an ageist
culture, it connotes frailty andweakness.
The thing I really don't likeabout elderly is the the that
(17:25):
comes in front of us.
The elderly do this and elderlythink that.
Right.
Right.
It's a grouping everybody intoa bucket.
Flip off the road into somegray gully of sameness and
nothing Nothing could be furtherfrom the truth.
So, you know, so there are, youknow, I would, I guess the over
(17:46):
an overarching suggestion Iwould make about language is
deceptively simple.
To suggest that your listenersthink about how they use the
words old and young, because ifyou want to super simplify it,
Ageism is any bias on the basisof age, including you're too
young for that.
(18:07):
But in a youth-obsessedculture, older people do bear
the brunt of it.
Most of the standardstereotypes are against older
people, as a consequence ofwhich we tend to use old as a
substitute for insert negativething.
And, you know, I feel so old.
Why do people, what are people,what are they really saying
when they say that?
They're saying, I feelinvisible.
(18:28):
I feel unattractive.
negative
Gretchen (18:32):
for sure well guess
Elizabeth (18:33):
what i don't know about you but when i was 13 i
felt all of those things worsethank god than i ever have since
they are not about how old wehappen to be right you can feel
with it you can feel sexy youcan feel all sorts of zippy
nifty things in later life andyou can feel all those awful
(18:54):
things um earlier on so thinkabout how you use you know what
does old feel like well it feelslike you know, how you are
today, which is maybe a betterday than tomorrow.
And maybe today everythingsucks, right?
But tomorrow you probably willfeel better or worse or
whatever.
But the point is, it's reallynever about age.
Because someone else the sameage does or doesn't feel like
(19:18):
doing that thing is or isn'tcapable of doing those things.
So dig down to the actualfeeling or the actual, you know,
capacity that you're trying todescribe.
Gretchen (19:30):
Oh, really?
You got to, you got to stop andthink about it.
It's not just going to comenaturally if it's become a
habit.
Yeah.
And no,
Elizabeth (19:38):
no judgment.
The first and most importantstep is to stop and think, huh,
why did I say it that way?
What did I mean by that?
And that's also a really good,gentle response to when you hear
or C, something ageist orperhaps get one of those awful
cards, you know, or the saleslady says, I assume you want to
(20:02):
shop in the shapeless frumpdepartment, you know, is to say
without the snark, if possible,sometimes I manage it and
sometimes I don't.
What do you mean by that?
Or my daughter is a facilitatorand she says, tell me more.
And that then makes the personstop and reflect.
(20:24):
Well, what did they mean by it?
And it does take courage,right?
It is a little uncomfortable,but changing the culture is
uncomfortable and we're notgoing to get anywhere if we stay
completely within the dottedlines.
That's true.
Gretchen (20:38):
So you got a question, ask some questions.
And I like that real gentle,even asking yourself instead of
beating yourself up.
Oh my gosh, I'm so ageist.
How did I let myself get tothis point where I have all
these judgments?
And instead you just, why was Ithinking that?
Why did I say that?
I like that.
Elizabeth (20:56):
And remember that just by thinking it yourself, By
reflecting, you are changingthe culture.
I think there's an idea that wehave to do it full time or
become a social justice warrioron the ramparts.
No, you don't.
Anything you do, no matter howsmall, and honestly, correcting
ourselves without judgment isreally hard, especially for
(21:19):
women.
If you do that once, you arechanging yourself and that is
changing the culture.
Gretchen (21:26):
Wow, that's so empowering.
Thank you for sharing that.
You're welcome.
I mean it.
Wow.
So what word do you use forolder adults?
We use older adults here at AgeGuide.
Elizabeth (21:38):
Oh, I have a better idea.
Gretchen (21:39):
Okay, okay.
Elizabeth (21:42):
But see if you like it.
When I was writing my book, Iliterally got tired of typing
older people or older adults orolder Americans.
And I shortened it to olders.
Olders.
Olders and youngers.
And I'm a writer and that makesme very, very leery of
inventing words.
But I will tell you, I see yourface lighting up, you know, if
(22:04):
you use olders and youngers, itis an eulogism, an invented
word, but nobody doesn't knowwhat it means.
Right, they'll understand ifyou're saying olders.
And it is being adopted.
I was just at an eventsponsored by a wonderful
organization called Cogeneratewith older and younger leaders.
And they use olders andyoungers in the title and
throughout.
Nobody didn't know what itmeans.
(22:25):
And another really nice thingabout olders and youngers is
that it emphasizes the superimportant point that we age in
relation to others, right?
A five-year-old will assure youthat she is older Ben, her
three-year-old sister, right?
At 72, I'm getting towards, youknow, typically being the
(22:46):
oldest person in the room, butif I visit a senior center, I'm
not, right?
So we are olders and youngersat the same time.
Yes, it puts us into community.
Right.
And it busts up that binary,that old young binary, right?
And it emphasizes that we'reall, you know, on this journey
together.
So I like that too.
Gretchen (23:05):
I like that
Elizabeth (23:06):
as well.
Go forth with older.
Gretchen (23:08):
See
Elizabeth (23:08):
what
Gretchen (23:08):
happens.
Okay.
We're going to steal that.
We're going to start usingthat.
I have read your book.
I love this book.
I'm going to show it again sothat everybody can see it.
This chair rocks a manifestoagainst ageism.
And I am not a nonfictionreader.
I can't make it through a book.
(23:30):
But in trying to skim thisbook, I couldn't skim it because
I was so drawn in and I have itall marked up and tabbed up.
And I used a pen and I don'tlike to use a pen in my books
either.
But this book required thatbecause I was so drawn in.
many good things.
And I said, I have to underlinethis and go back to it.
So I highly recommend this bookto our listeners.
(23:51):
It's a book that everyone needsto read if they're aging.
And we've already discussedthat everyone is aging.
Anyway, in your book, you saythat all aging is successful,
not just the sporty version.
Otherwise, you're dead.
What does that mean?
Can you unpackage that for us?
Elizabeth (24:10):
I love that quote.
Thank you.
Yes, I used to.
I mean, one of the things I Iprobably used to say, and lots
of people still do, is aging,aging is rough, but it beats the
alternative, right?
And I thought, oh, that's cute.
Oh, wait, that's really sayingthat the only thing worse than
being old is being dead.
So I don't say that anymore.
(24:31):
But what got me on thesuccessful aging anti-bandwagon
was encountering that phrase,successful aging.
And just one more suggestionfor your listeners that if you
want to go deeper into anythingI'm saying now, my book is
great, but it's not free.
(24:51):
But I have been thinking outloud since I started that blog
in 2005 at thischairrocks.com.
slash blog.
So if you, and it's searchableby topic.
So search on successful and youcan see the long pinky post I
wrote about this.
Excellent.
We'll put a link in the shownotes too.
So people can find all thesethings that you're referencing.
Thank you.
Thank you.
(25:11):
Thank you.
You encounter positive aging,active aging, successful aging,
and successful is sort of theworst of them in parlance.
And I just want to say beingactive is fantastic.
We're all in the same boat,right?
Doing so is positive aging.
We need to counter thenarrative that aging is gloomy
(25:33):
and awful and terrible.
So all these folks and I are inthe same boat, on the same
team, and I am really gladthey're doing what they're
doing.
But the thing I'm taking issuewith, first of all, is the idea,
and this was, I learned from ascholar named Tony Calasanti,
like, why is aging something tosucceed or fail at, for
(25:55):
starters?
We don't fail in childhood.
You don't fail in adolescence.
So what's up with that?
How can you fail at it?
But the in Western thoughtunder capitalism, under
patriarchy, under beautyculture, with all the misogyny
and all the stuff that we swimin, the ideal aging that is held
up in that context is to workreally hard and hopefully spend
(26:19):
lots of money to look and movelike your younger version,
right?
Women age successfully in airquotes, by appearing to not age.
Men age successfully by movinglike younger people.
Once again, the most importantthing about women is how we look
and so on.
And the underlying messagethere is really aging is bad.
(26:43):
The better job you do of it isthe degree to which it looks
like you're not aging at all.
And that is impossible.
It's expensive.
It pits us against each other.
It's highly gendered.
You cannot fail at aging if youwake up in the morning.
And another thing I want topoint out about that is that,
(27:04):
and this didn't dawn on me untilafter I'd been at this for a
decade and actually sparked bythe COVID pandemic and thinking
about chronic illness anddisability.
The model of active aging, it'severywhere and independent
everywhere.
aging, right?
In disability communities,disabled people know they need
each other and they need us too.
(27:25):
We need to be better at, youknow, at being, acting in
solidarity with disabled people.
And it's really important tostay as active as you can.
But that model that you need tobe, you know, hiking and skiing
and doing all these thingsmakes physical activity, gives
(27:49):
it a very important value.
And it's important to realizethat lots of people can't do
those things, don't want to dothose things, can't afford to
keep those things, and that allof us are going to encounter
some degree of of incapacity,possibly temporarily.
There's a saying in disabilitycommunities, they call people
(28:09):
who are not disabled tabs fortemporarily able-bodied, you
know?
Oh, wow.
Right.
Did you ever break a bone?
Did you ever sprain your foot?
Did you try and get in a doorholding a baby and a bag of
groceries?
You know, those, none of us Weall need help.
We all need help all the time.
The best cultures, you know,way of living are interdependent
(28:31):
where we celebrate the tiesthat connect us and that we, you
know, asking help, giving help.
And so to hold up active agingas the ideal to which everyone
needs to aspire and means thatthose of us who are less active
or who aren't able to be activein those ways are somehow
screwing up or not as well-filedand not as successful.
(28:55):
Right.
That we're failures.
And that is just a punishingideal.
Gretchen (29:03):
And that's going to perpetuate ageism and the fear
of what if I can't be thisamazing, super ager, super
successful, Instagram worthy, 80year old, then...
it's scary to get old becausei'm not going to do
Elizabeth (29:20):
that exactly you know and none of us can none none of
us is perfect in all the waysand even if you're doing it now
for some reason not all clicheabout is it a duck that looks
calm on the surface but ispaddling like hell underneath
you know right all those thingstake effort and um you know
cognitive decline is notinevitable About 20% of the
(29:42):
population escapes it entirely.
And we all know some of thosereally sharp 90 year olds.
Most of us lose some processingspeed in the ability to
remember the name of the moviewe saw with what's her name.
But guess what?
Young people forget things allthe time too.
Yes.
But that's all we lose.
But physically slowing down isinevitable.
(30:03):
And if we hitch our self-worthto being able to, you know, ski
a black diamond slope.
I think that's the thing.
I'm not a skier or, you know,or run a certain distance if
that's, or, or looking a certainway, you know, we know that
it's, we know it's corrosive.
We know it's not bad for us.
So try to be more generous toourselves and each other about,
(30:25):
about, you know, these physicaland cognitive and, you know,
appearance things too.
Gretchen (30:31):
Yes, and that's just going to help.
Like you said, it's going toreframe for us in our minds when
we stop and we think about itand we question why we're
assuming that.
So it brings us full circle towhat you were talking about.
So next I want to talk aboutaction.
Can you share some suggestions,tips, advice?
on how to conquer.
(30:52):
First, let's talk about our owninternalized ageist attitudes.
Elizabeth (30:57):
We have so much more work to do around age, but the
bright side, it's like cleaninga really dirty window.
You can see where you've been.
I mean, one of the reasons mywork is making an impact is not
because I'm such a genius, butbecause I kind of got here
first.
And I can't wait, P.S., formore competition.
You can see where you've been.
(31:18):
These are new ideas to people.
And if you can introduce themin a gentle way, start a bigger
lift, invite some people over totalk about age.
We don't talk- Maybe have abook club.
Start a book club.
On Old School, we've createdguides to starting a
consciousness raising group,which is a big lift.
(31:39):
There's one called Who Me,Ageist.
Ageist, Sexist, Who Me, abouthow age and gender intersect.
Ageist, Racist, Who Me.
They're free.
They're downloadable.
Download them.
If it's too heavy a lift, justhave some people over, you know,
that you don't have to committo having the same people, you
know, meeting for six months.
Although if you do, it willchange your life.
(32:01):
Consciousness raising is thetool that catalyzed the
mainstream, you know, secondwave women's movement because
people came together andrealized that what they had been
assuming were personal flaws orpersonal problems We're widely
shared because of the systems inwhich we live and that we can
come together and do somethingabout them.
(32:22):
And we're in the process ofcreating just conversation
guides, which are a lighterlift.
And also, if you wanna talk topeople about this or listen to
it, again, on Old School, andagain, I co-created it, but I
don't make any money off it, butone of the things we'd like to
do is to bring people togetherwho are thinking about this
(32:43):
stuff.
and or just want to hear aboutit.
And we have an open to everyoneZoom on Wednesdays at 1.30 PM
ET.
And you can talk about whatyou're up to.
You can just lurk.
You can come late.
You can leave early.
But we want to increase thenumber of people who are talking
and thinking about this becausemore of us need to.
And it's so interesting.
Gretchen (33:04):
That's great.
We will definitely want toshare that on some of our social
media.
And again, we'll put all thisstuff in the show notes.
I didn't know all that wasgoing on.
There's great ways for peopleto get involved.
Excellent.
Okay.
So now that we know what to dowith our own attitude.
Okay.
Podcast over.
Yeah, we're done.
We can drop the mic on that,huh?
(33:27):
But what you started talking alittle bit about how we're all
living within the same systemsand getting together helps us to
recognize that this is sort ofa universal thing.
So then we're looking at someof the entrenched systemic
ageism that we find ininstitutions and in our societal
structures.
What can we do about that?
(33:48):
Is it this getting together,recognizing that and talking it
through?
Are there other specificchallenges that you can give to
listeners on that aspect ofageism?
Elizabeth (34:01):
I'm going to toss that back to your listeners and
say what systems do you inhabit?
I mean, we all live undercapitalism.
We're all prisoners of gender,most of us.
Actually, much less so, sothat's a good thing.
But Think about, I mean, aplace where age discrimination
(34:22):
hits a lot of people is, ofcourse, the workplace.
Because if you can't, you know,make a living and pay the rent,
then other things become sortof secondary.
And ageism in the workplace isoften the first form of
discrimination that white menencounter.
Unknown (34:36):
Yeah.
Elizabeth (34:37):
So there's an opportunity there for white men
and for people who know and lovewhite men to not hit them when
they're down.
But if that's their firstexperience of, oh, it's not a
level playing field out there.
It feels awful to be deniedaccess to opportunity because of
(35:00):
something you cannot changeabout yourself.
So how could that be a way toexpand their understanding or a
collective understanding of thebarriers so many other people
face to getting stuff done.
Healthcare, you know, there's, Imean, if your doctor says, what
do you expect at your age?
Find a new doctor.
If you are accompanying anolder person to the doctor and
(35:22):
the doctor insists on talking toyou and not the older person,
don't let them get away with it,right?
If you don't like the adviceyou're getting from a doctor,
say, you know, is this theadvice in your older?
Is this the advice you'd give ayounger person?
Right.
You know, call it out, whateverthe context is in.
I don't know.
(35:42):
Give me, you know, give me acontext.
I mean, we can only each of ushas our own circle and we're
going to be the most effectivein domains that we know about
and care about.
So think about how age offersan opportunity in that context
or denies an opportunity.
Think about that.
Reflect on that.
If you have a question, come tothis.
(36:03):
Come to our Wednesday session.
It's called Office Hours, 1.30.
And you don't need the rightanswer.
There isn't a right answer.
You may or may not be in aposition to call something out,
but just thinking about it andthinking of a little something,
you can say, what's up withthat?
Why is it like this is a way tohelp move the needle.
And we close every Office Hoursby saying, you can't start too
(36:29):
late and you can't start toosmall.
Anything you do helps move theneedle.
Gretchen (36:34):
So that's encouraging.
It looks like the future isbright.
It looks like we're making someheadway and moving the needle
on this ageism thing.
And I just appreciate your hardwork on this and all that
you're doing.
And it's so encouraging to hearyou talk about the things that
we can do as individuals.
So I hope you keep up thisgreat work and that we can stay
(36:56):
connected with you, Ashton.
I would love that.
Thank you for this opportunity.
Thank you for being here.
Delaney (37:09):
This is your call to action.
Every single day, 11,000Americans turn 65.
Our parents, our grandparents,our neighbors, ourselves.
And right now, the programsthat keep us healthy,
independent, and thriving areunder serious threat.
The Administration forCommunity Living and Older
(37:30):
Americans Act that providesservices like meals, caregiver
support, falls prevention, areon the chopping block.
$1.5 trillion in spending cuts?
That means real people couldlose lifelines.
But here's the truth.
When we speak, they have tolisten.
And we cannot stay silent.
(37:51):
Congress is moving fast.
They could vote by MemorialDay.
So we need you to stand up andtake action today.
Write your legislators.
Use AgeGuide's advocacy toolkiton our website.
Call your legislators.
Flood Washington with ourcollective power.
Share stories.
(38:12):
Real voices change minds.
This isn't just about budgets.
It's about dignity.
It's about making sure ourloved ones don't go hungry,
don't lose support, don't sufferbecause of cuts.
We are the voices they can'tignore.
So let me ask you.
What kind of future do you wantas you age?
(38:35):
If you believe in compassionand justice in community, then
act now.
Follow the link in the shownotes to find Age Guide's action
alerts.
Together, we are unstoppable.
Now, let's go make adifference.
Val (39:00):
Hello and welcome to your Medicare Minutes.
My name is Val Guzman and I'mthe Benefit Access Specialist
here at Age Guide.
Today we are checking in on aMedicare cost-saving benefit
called Extra Help.
This is a program that helpsreduce the cost of Medicare
prescription drug plans and thecost of your medications.
I've gotten more calls recentlyabout people receiving a letter
(39:23):
about this Extra Help programand the letter can be a bit
confusing.
Something that happens whenyou're new to Extra Help is that
you're automatically enrolledin a Medicare drug plan.
But something that's new isthat the Extra Help program
gives you the option to changeyour drug plan once a month at
(39:44):
any time in the year.
One good reason you may want todo this is if you have to take
a new medication and it's notcovered by your current plan.
Extra Help gives you someadditional flexibility to set up
your coverage in the way thatworks best for you.
If you received one of theseletters or you have questions
(40:08):
about Extra Help, feel free tocall Age Guide at
1-800-528-2000.
Gretchen (40:20):
Thank you for listening to the Age Guide,
Perspectives on the AgingJourney.
Age Guide coordinates andadministers many services for
older adults in NortheasternIllinois.
Our specially trainedprofessionals are available to
answer questions and connect youwith local service providers
and resources.
If you are interested in theseservices or want to learn more,
(40:42):
go to our website atageguide.org or call our offices
at 630-293-5990.
Please follow our podcast soyou can be notified in your
streaming account.
Thank you, and we will see younext time on The Age Guide.
Guide podcast.
.
Gretchen (00:04):
Welcome to the Age Guide, Perspectives on the Aging
Journey.
I'm your host, GretchenKnowlton, and this is Aging
Unfiltered, a series where weget real about ageism, how it
shapes our world, and what wecan do about it.
In today's episode, we'rethrilled to have Ashton
(00:25):
Applewhite with us.
Ashton is a passionateadvocate, writer, and thought
leader whose work focuses ondismantling ageism and promoting
a more inclusive, vibrantvision of aging.
She is the author of theacclaimed book, This Chair
Rocks, a manifesto againstageism, where she challenges the
(00:49):
stereotypes surrounding growingolder and calls for a cultural
shift that celebrates the valueand potential of older adults.
Ashton is also the speakerbehind a powerful TED Talk
called called Let's End Ageism,which has gained attention for
its compelling call to actionagainst age discrimination.
(01:12):
As a speaker, writer, andactivist, she's been featured in
the major publications like TheNew York Times, The Guardian,
and HuffPost.
In this episode, we'll diveinto Ashton's journey, explore
the impact of ageism in today'sworld, and discuss how we can
(01:33):
all contribute to a future wherepeople of all ages are
empowered.
Get ready for an inspiringconversation with one of the
leading voices in the movementto end ageism.
Welcome, Ashton.
Elizabeth (01:47):
Thank you, Gretchen.
Wow, I wish I could record thatfabulous intro and make
everyone use it.
Gretchen (01:53):
Oh my goodness, I cannot even begin to tell you
how thrilled we are to have youhere with us today.
You know, when our CEO, Marla,told us she was going to meet
you at that event in Illinois afew months back, she said, I'm
going to try to get her on thepodcast.
And we all just looked at eachother like, could we?
(02:15):
Would she?
That would be so incredible.
But Ashton, you said yes.
Here I am with pleasure.
And yes, and now here you aresitting with us.
And I just have to say, thisfeels like a dream come true.
We're so grateful that you'rehere.
My
Elizabeth (02:31):
pleasure.
Gretchen (02:32):
Thank you.
So let's dive in.
Let's start with a definition.
What is ageism?
Elizabeth (02:41):
Yes, definitions are always useful, although one of
the many reasons I'm optimisticabout our progress in this area
is that people don't usually nowlook, you know, totally blank
when I mention the word.
And by people, I mean like, youknow, Uber drivers and random
strangers.
Good! That's good news.
Yeah, it is.
The dictionary definition,which is needless to say, not up
(03:03):
to the job, is discriminationand stereotyping on the basis of
age.
I like the way the World HealthOrganization frames it.
Let's see if I can get itverbatim, that it consists of
how we think, feel, and actabout ourselves and others based
on age.
And the thinking piece is thestereotype part of it.
(03:27):
And the feeling piece is theprejudice part of it.
And how we act is thediscrimination piece of it,
right?
So it's complicated, like allinteresting things.
I mean, I like to say we arebeing ageist and we are all
ageist all the time.
No judgment.
Everyone is.
Everyone is full of bias.
Most of it's unconscious.
(03:48):
We are being ageist anytime wemake an assumption about someone
or a group of people on thebasis of how old we think they
are.
And I should add myself, aboutourselves as well.
Gretchen (04:00):
We internalized and externalized in how we think
about aging.
And probably the more werecognize that we're all ageist,
like you just said, the more wecan deal with it.
Elizabeth (04:10):
You know, I think it's less of a more proposition
as just an acknowledgement.
Oh, gee, this stuff has takenup residence in my head.
just like everyone else's.
And I need to makeself-awareness part of that.
It's like, and it's no funbecause that's really the hard
part because it's not great torealize that you have thoughts
(04:33):
that you weren't aware of thatare shaping your behavior in
ways you may not like.
The good news is that it reallyis like letting a genie out of
a bottle.
You can't get it back in.
Once you see it in yourself, ormaybe lifting a veil, then that
frees you up to see it.
around you in the way olderpeople are depicted in the way
(04:55):
we're missing entirely insometimes the way younger people
are depicted right any judgmentbasis of age and once and that
is really liberating becausethen you're like oh it's not
about how flawed i am it's aboutthe culture in which we live
and that means we can cometogether and do something about
it
Gretchen (05:14):
that's such a positive perspective on it So what are
some of the most commonmanifestations of ageism?
Where do you see it?
Elizabeth (05:24):
Well, I won't say where don't you see it.
Although, you know, that's abig question.
And of course it depends on,you know, what you do, what
matters to you, what shows youlook at, what things you listen
to, et cetera, which brings tomind the fact that we live in a
very age segregated society.
(05:46):
And the more homogenous yourfriend group is or your
workspace is, the easier it isfor stereotypes to go
unchallenged, whether they'reabout queer people, black
people, fat people, thin people,you name it.
If you are confronted withpeople who don't look like you,
it's much harder to hold on toany notion that they are all
(06:09):
Insert the adjective, right?
Well, and that I will saybrings to mind my least favorite
stereotype about older people,which is that at some point we
become old and cross someimaginary velvet rope and then
become lumped into this sad graygroup of the elderly.
(06:31):
When in fact, the longer welive, the more different.
From one another, we become.
All stereotypes are dumb andwrong and problematic, but they
are especially inaccurate whenit comes to age because every
newborn is unique, but every20-year-old, all 20-year-olds
(06:52):
are much more alikedevelopmentally, cognitively,
socially than 40-year-olds whoare way more alike than
70-year-olds and so on out.
So I would say if I had to pickone, that would be it.
As to where it appears, I don'tknow, give me a context.
I mean, or I'll challenge yourlisteners to think about where
(07:14):
we don't appear.
Is, you know, what about at aparty?
When you go to a party, arepeople all ages or is everyone
the same age?
You know, what about TV shows?
What about advertisements?
What about- What about in thegreeting card aisle?
Yeah, the greeting card aisleis really a toxic little stroll,
right?
And the question there is, youknow, why would you ever send a
(07:40):
card to someone, even if it'sfunny?
And some of them are funny ashell.
I, you know, I freelyacknowledge that.
But humor is a classic defensemechanism.
Where's your sense of humor,right?
And I will just say,discrimination is not funny.
Self-loathing is not funny.
You know, we know this from thebody acceptance movement.
(08:00):
We can learn a lot from that,right?
Or the disability justicemovement.
And would you ever, ever, eversend a card to someone making
fun of some other aspect of whatthey look like or who they
sleep with or their ethnicbackground?
Well, why should age get apass?
Yeah, why does it get a pass?
(08:22):
Because we haven't done quiteenough work yet.
Gretchen (08:26):
Okay, something that we need to be working on for
sure.
And
Elizabeth (08:30):
lots of people are.
If you don't mind, I will makea quick plug for something that
I make no money off, but calledthe Old School Hub.
And the website isoldschool.info.
It's searchable by topics, andone of the things you can find
on there is a whole line ofage-positive greeting cards, for
example.
So there are alternatives, andOld School is sort of a one-stop
(08:55):
shop, except everything is freeexcept the books for anything
ageism-related, for podcasts,handouts, videos, all sorts of
stuff.
Gretchen (09:06):
We have lots of resources and tools that you can
use.
Yes.
I've ordered some of thosegreeting cards before.
They're excellent.
I love it.
Yes.
So what inspired you to decidethat this was going to be your
thing, Ashton?
You were like, okay, I see thatthere's ageism in the world and
I'm going to tackle that andI'm going to become an
(09:28):
anti-ageism activist.
Elizabeth (09:31):
I was in it for the alliteration, you know?
Yeah.
I just wanted to give people atongue twister.
Right.
I wanted to have more A's.
Yeah.
Well, I will say, first of all,for any late bloomers who are
listening, I'm sure we latebloomers all think we're the
latest bloomers of all.
(09:51):
I imagine.
I mean, I have never, ever hada career plan.
I always know I'm in troublewhen someone wants my CV or my
resume.
And I'm like, well, this willmake no sense.
Yeah.
I mean, I didn't start writinguntil I was in my 40s.
Really?
Yeah, no.
And I never, ever in a millionyears thought I would become a
(10:13):
public speaker or a publicfigure.
I'm an introvert.
I like to be alone.
But ha ha.
Yeah.
something happened and I'm veryhappy and proud that it did.
I can't, I won't pretendotherwise, but I don't think
anything about my path is veryinstructional for anyone but me.
(10:33):
I will also say I am ageneralist.
I think if I had a real job, Imight've been a journalist
because I think journalists areinterested in the full story of
things.
And if you had told me Youknow, 15 years ago, you'd be all
up in aging.
I would have said, ew, why do Iwant to think about something
(10:53):
sad and depressing that oldpeople do?
And aging is not something thatold people do.
It's something old people do doit, but so do young people.
So we all are doing it everytime we wake up, right?
And it touches on every fieldof study.
And it touches on every aspectof being human.
But I didn't know that when I'm72 now.
(11:16):
And I was in my mid-50s when Ilooked in the mirror and went,
oh, this getting old thing, it'shappening to me.
And I think it's hard for allof us to imagine that.
And I think that's human.
I think it's a little bitbecause we think it's icky and
we're afraid, many of us, butalso we age slowly.
It's genuinely hard to imaginebeing older.
(11:38):
And as species, we're not goodat it.
We're not good at saving.
We're not good at anticipatingthe future.
i went oh yeah it's happeningimagine i'm not the only human
being to get get a you know getout of jail free card and so
being nerdy i startedinterviewing people over 80 and
researching longevity andlearned within a matter of
(12:02):
months the facts that i startedmy ted talk out with a decade
later uh that that um most ofwhat i thought i knew about
later life was flat out wrong orway off base way too negative
or just not nuanced enough andit i had i started a blog um
(12:23):
that was back when blogging wasbig and it had a word cloud i
don't know if your folks willremember what that is but it
maps the size of the word withthe frequency of appearance and
it was obvious to me early onthat ageism was a big word and
was a reason, if not the reason,why we only ever hear one side
(12:44):
of the story.
And I want to say in giant,also capital letters, that we
need both sides of the story.
You know, a lot of people startto get old and they're like,
oh, this isn't so bad.
You know, it's not like what Iimagine.
And if I just eat enough kaleand do enough sit-ups, it's all
going to be great.
Well, maybe, but maybe not,right?
And it's really important notto sugarcoat it.
(13:05):
and to discuss the scary thingstoo, especially the loss of
physical function, your bodyworks less well, but also let's
contextualize them.
No one gets all the bad things,right?
And even more importantly, thereason I became obsessed with
the subject is because I am, Idon't know, I don't wanna say
politically oriented, but I havebeen interested in social
(13:29):
justice in various guises mywhole life.
And I started, to think aboutwhat the forces were that were
drowning out the positive stuff,right?
What are the forces andinterests and corporations that
want us to stay afraid, thatwant us to buy things we don't
(13:50):
need, and that want us to wantto divide old and young and et
cetera, et cetera.
I could go on for another halfan hour, but I'll wait for the
next question.
So I was off and running.
Gretchen (14:01):
So your perspective on aging is, has evolved over time
it sounds like it does itcontinue to evolve all the time
I mean you're doing this workyou're continuing to talk to
people and to do research and towrite about it is it continuing
to evolve oh my
Elizabeth (14:17):
gosh yes um I I hope I hope you believe me I'm not
very good at faking things umwhen I say it gets more
interesting all the time becauseI know more and I can ask
better questions or go moredeep, you know, go maybe, you
know, into, into betterwormholes.
Um, and, um, geez, I neverwanted to write a first book.
(14:41):
I, it was the hardest thingI've ever done.
I really thought I could dothis ageism thing without having
to write another book.
And then that didn't turn outto be the case.
And if God helped me, I everwrite another book.
I do not know how people popthem out every two years.
Um, all I have is the title anda couple of index cards, but
the title will be things I usedto say.
Oh, excellent.
(15:02):
Because I keep revising, right?
I keep thinking, oh, that's,you know, that's out of date.
I can think of a better way tosay it.
I now understand why that's notan okay way to say it.
And for me, That's superinteresting and super
gratifying.
So did that answer yourquestion or did
Gretchen (15:22):
I go down another road?
Yes, thank you.
And one of the things that Ithought was really interesting
in your book too is the way youtalked about the language that
we use to talk about aging.
Will you share a little bitabout the terms?
That's a
Elizabeth (15:36):
perfect follow-up.
Seniors, elderly.
Yeah, perfect follow-up,Gretchen, because language is a
moving target.
There are no, I really took mea long time to find my way.
I will tell you that betweenstarting this blog and figuring
out what my path was with many,many years of just plugging
(15:56):
away, not sure where I wasgoing, but knowing I was onto
something.
And one of the, I woke up inthe morning with, oh, I've got
the title, binaries are bad.
Now, that was not the title.
It was one of those geniusideas that when you wake up in
the morning is not genius.
But binaries are not ourfriends and right, wrong, good,
(16:19):
bad.
You know, the language you usemay not be right for me.
Take the word elder.
It's a beautiful word.
Indigenous cultures use it.
Some African-American, youknow, communities use it.
Those are not my cultures and Idon't use it, but there's
nothing wrong with it.
To take a less charitableexample, you know, I am a
(16:39):
geezer.
I'm a geezer.
I like being a geezer and I'mgoing to call myself a geezer.
If you want to call yourself ageezer, more power to you.
And I'm not being snarky,right?
Yeah, right.
Aging is complicated.
We need to do it in our ownway, at our own time, in our own
speed.
So with some obvious historicalexamples, there are no rules.
(17:02):
I will say that on old school,oldschool.info, search for
language.
There are some really, reallyexcellent guides to non-ageist
language.
I don't love elderly.
It's elderly is a perfectlyokay word, but in an ageist
culture, it connotes frailty andweakness.
The thing I really don't likeabout elderly is the the that
(17:25):
comes in front of us.
The elderly do this and elderlythink that.
Right.
Right.
It's a grouping everybody intoa bucket.
Flip off the road into somegray gully of sameness and
nothing Nothing could be furtherfrom the truth.
So, you know, so there are, youknow, I would, I guess the over
(17:46):
an overarching suggestion Iwould make about language is
deceptively simple.
To suggest that your listenersthink about how they use the
words old and young, because ifyou want to super simplify it,
Ageism is any bias on the basisof age, including you're too
young for that.
(18:07):
But in a youth-obsessedculture, older people do bear
the brunt of it.
Most of the standardstereotypes are against older
people, as a consequence ofwhich we tend to use old as a
substitute for insert negativething.
And, you know, I feel so old.
Why do people, what are people,what are they really saying
when they say that?
They're saying, I feelinvisible.
(18:28):
I feel unattractive.
negative
Gretchen (18:32):
for sure well guess
Elizabeth (18:33):
what i don't know about you but when i was 13 i
felt all of those things worsethank god than i ever have since
they are not about how old wehappen to be right you can feel
with it you can feel sexy youcan feel all sorts of zippy
nifty things in later life andyou can feel all those awful
(18:54):
things um earlier on so thinkabout how you use you know what
does old feel like well it feelslike you know, how you are
today, which is maybe a betterday than tomorrow.
And maybe today everythingsucks, right?
But tomorrow you probably willfeel better or worse or
whatever.
But the point is, it's reallynever about age.
Because someone else the sameage does or doesn't feel like
(19:18):
doing that thing is or isn'tcapable of doing those things.
So dig down to the actualfeeling or the actual, you know,
capacity that you're trying todescribe.
Gretchen (19:30):
Oh, really?
You got to, you got to stop andthink about it.
It's not just going to comenaturally if it's become a
habit.
Yeah.
And no,
Elizabeth (19:38):
no judgment.
The first and most importantstep is to stop and think, huh,
why did I say it that way?
What did I mean by that?
And that's also a really good,gentle response to when you hear
or C, something ageist orperhaps get one of those awful
cards, you know, or the saleslady says, I assume you want to
(20:02):
shop in the shapeless frumpdepartment, you know, is to say
without the snark, if possible,sometimes I manage it and
sometimes I don't.
What do you mean by that?
Or my daughter is a facilitatorand she says, tell me more.
And that then makes the personstop and reflect.
(20:24):
Well, what did they mean by it?
And it does take courage,right?
It is a little uncomfortable,but changing the culture is
uncomfortable and we're notgoing to get anywhere if we stay
completely within the dottedlines.
That's true.
Gretchen (20:38):
So you got a question, ask some questions.
And I like that real gentle,even asking yourself instead of
beating yourself up.
Oh my gosh, I'm so ageist.
How did I let myself get tothis point where I have all
these judgments?
And instead you just, why was Ithinking that?
Why did I say that?
I like that.
Elizabeth (20:56):
And remember that just by thinking it yourself, By
reflecting, you are changingthe culture.
I think there's an idea that wehave to do it full time or
become a social justice warrioron the ramparts.
No, you don't.
Anything you do, no matter howsmall, and honestly, correcting
ourselves without judgment isreally hard, especially for
(21:19):
women.
If you do that once, you arechanging yourself and that is
changing the culture.
Gretchen (21:26):
Wow, that's so empowering.
Thank you for sharing that.
You're welcome.
I mean it.
Wow.
So what word do you use forolder adults?
We use older adults here at AgeGuide.
Elizabeth (21:38):
Oh, I have a better idea.
Gretchen (21:39):
Okay, okay.
Elizabeth (21:42):
But see if you like it.
When I was writing my book, Iliterally got tired of typing
older people or older adults orolder Americans.
And I shortened it to olders.
Olders.
Olders and youngers.
And I'm a writer and that makesme very, very leery of
inventing words.
But I will tell you, I see yourface lighting up, you know, if
(22:04):
you use olders and youngers, itis an eulogism, an invented
word, but nobody doesn't knowwhat it means.
Right, they'll understand ifyou're saying olders.
And it is being adopted.
I was just at an eventsponsored by a wonderful
organization called Cogeneratewith older and younger leaders.
And they use olders andyoungers in the title and
throughout.
Nobody didn't know what itmeans.
(22:25):
And another really nice thingabout olders and youngers is
that it emphasizes the superimportant point that we age in
relation to others, right?
A five-year-old will assure youthat she is older Ben, her
three-year-old sister, right?
At 72, I'm getting towards, youknow, typically being the
(22:46):
oldest person in the room, butif I visit a senior center, I'm
not, right?
So we are olders and youngersat the same time.
Yes, it puts us into community.
Right.
And it busts up that binary,that old young binary, right?
And it emphasizes that we'reall, you know, on this journey
together.
So I like that too.
Gretchen (23:05):
I like that
Elizabeth (23:06):
as well.
Go forth with older.
Gretchen (23:08):
See
Elizabeth (23:08):
what
Gretchen (23:08):
happens.
Okay.
We're going to steal that.
We're going to start usingthat.
I have read your book.
I love this book.
I'm going to show it again sothat everybody can see it.
This chair rocks a manifestoagainst ageism.
And I am not a nonfictionreader.
I can't make it through a book.
(23:30):
But in trying to skim thisbook, I couldn't skim it because
I was so drawn in and I have itall marked up and tabbed up.
And I used a pen and I don'tlike to use a pen in my books
either.
But this book required thatbecause I was so drawn in.
many good things.
And I said, I have to underlinethis and go back to it.
So I highly recommend this bookto our listeners.
(23:51):
It's a book that everyone needsto read if they're aging.
And we've already discussedthat everyone is aging.
Anyway, in your book, you saythat all aging is successful,
not just the sporty version.
Otherwise, you're dead.
What does that mean?
Can you unpackage that for us?
Elizabeth (24:10):
I love that quote.
Thank you.
Yes, I used to.
I mean, one of the things I Iprobably used to say, and lots
of people still do, is aging,aging is rough, but it beats the
alternative, right?
And I thought, oh, that's cute.
Oh, wait, that's really sayingthat the only thing worse than
being old is being dead.
So I don't say that anymore.
(24:31):
But what got me on thesuccessful aging anti-bandwagon
was encountering that phrase,successful aging.
And just one more suggestionfor your listeners that if you
want to go deeper into anythingI'm saying now, my book is
great, but it's not free.
(24:51):
But I have been thinking outloud since I started that blog
in 2005 at thischairrocks.com.
slash blog.
So if you, and it's searchableby topic.
So search on successful and youcan see the long pinky post I
wrote about this.
Excellent.
We'll put a link in the shownotes too.
So people can find all thesethings that you're referencing.
Thank you.
Thank you.
(25:11):
Thank you.
You encounter positive aging,active aging, successful aging,
and successful is sort of theworst of them in parlance.
And I just want to say beingactive is fantastic.
We're all in the same boat,right?
Doing so is positive aging.
We need to counter thenarrative that aging is gloomy
(25:33):
and awful and terrible.
So all these folks and I are inthe same boat, on the same
team, and I am really gladthey're doing what they're
doing.
But the thing I'm taking issuewith, first of all, is the idea,
and this was, I learned from ascholar named Tony Calasanti,
like, why is aging something tosucceed or fail at, for
(25:55):
starters?
We don't fail in childhood.
You don't fail in adolescence.
So what's up with that?
How can you fail at it?
But the in Western thoughtunder capitalism, under
patriarchy, under beautyculture, with all the misogyny
and all the stuff that we swimin, the ideal aging that is held
up in that context is to workreally hard and hopefully spend
(26:19):
lots of money to look and movelike your younger version,
right?
Women age successfully in airquotes, by appearing to not age.
Men age successfully by movinglike younger people.
Once again, the most importantthing about women is how we look
and so on.
And the underlying messagethere is really aging is bad.
(26:43):
The better job you do of it isthe degree to which it looks
like you're not aging at all.
And that is impossible.
It's expensive.
It pits us against each other.
It's highly gendered.
You cannot fail at aging if youwake up in the morning.
And another thing I want topoint out about that is that,
(27:04):
and this didn't dawn on me untilafter I'd been at this for a
decade and actually sparked bythe COVID pandemic and thinking
about chronic illness anddisability.
The model of active aging, it'severywhere and independent
everywhere.
aging, right?
In disability communities,disabled people know they need
each other and they need us too.
(27:25):
We need to be better at, youknow, at being, acting in
solidarity with disabled people.
And it's really important tostay as active as you can.
But that model that you need tobe, you know, hiking and skiing
and doing all these thingsmakes physical activity, gives
(27:49):
it a very important value.
And it's important to realizethat lots of people can't do
those things, don't want to dothose things, can't afford to
keep those things, and that allof us are going to encounter
some degree of of incapacity,possibly temporarily.
There's a saying in disabilitycommunities, they call people
(28:09):
who are not disabled tabs fortemporarily able-bodied, you
know?
Oh, wow.
Right.
Did you ever break a bone?
Did you ever sprain your foot?
Did you try and get in a doorholding a baby and a bag of
groceries?
You know, those, none of us Weall need help.
We all need help all the time.
The best cultures, you know,way of living are interdependent
(28:31):
where we celebrate the tiesthat connect us and that we, you
know, asking help, giving help.
And so to hold up active agingas the ideal to which everyone
needs to aspire and means thatthose of us who are less active
or who aren't able to be activein those ways are somehow
screwing up or not as well-filedand not as successful.
(28:55):
Right.
That we're failures.
And that is just a punishingideal.
Gretchen (29:03):
And that's going to perpetuate ageism and the fear
of what if I can't be thisamazing, super ager, super
successful, Instagram worthy, 80year old, then...
it's scary to get old becausei'm not going to do
Elizabeth (29:20):
that exactly you know and none of us can none none of
us is perfect in all the waysand even if you're doing it now
for some reason not all clicheabout is it a duck that looks
calm on the surface but ispaddling like hell underneath
you know right all those thingstake effort and um you know
cognitive decline is notinevitable About 20% of the
(29:42):
population escapes it entirely.
And we all know some of thosereally sharp 90 year olds.
Most of us lose some processingspeed in the ability to
remember the name of the moviewe saw with what's her name.
But guess what?
Young people forget things allthe time too.
Yes.
But that's all we lose.
But physically slowing down isinevitable.
(30:03):
And if we hitch our self-worthto being able to, you know, ski
a black diamond slope.
I think that's the thing.
I'm not a skier or, you know,or run a certain distance if
that's, or, or looking a certainway, you know, we know that
it's, we know it's corrosive.
We know it's not bad for us.
So try to be more generous toourselves and each other about,
(30:25):
about, you know, these physicaland cognitive and, you know,
appearance things too.
Gretchen (30:31):
Yes, and that's just going to help.
Like you said, it's going toreframe for us in our minds when
we stop and we think about itand we question why we're
assuming that.
So it brings us full circle towhat you were talking about.
So next I want to talk aboutaction.
Can you share some suggestions,tips, advice?
on how to conquer.
(30:52):
First, let's talk about our owninternalized ageist attitudes.
Elizabeth (30:57):
We have so much more work to do around age, but the
bright side, it's like cleaninga really dirty window.
You can see where you've been.
I mean, one of the reasons mywork is making an impact is not
because I'm such a genius, butbecause I kind of got here
first.
And I can't wait, P.S., formore competition.
You can see where you've been.
(31:18):
These are new ideas to people.
And if you can introduce themin a gentle way, start a bigger
lift, invite some people over totalk about age.
We don't talk- Maybe have abook club.
Start a book club.
On Old School, we've createdguides to starting a
consciousness raising group,which is a big lift.
(31:39):
There's one called Who Me,Ageist.
Ageist, Sexist, Who Me, abouthow age and gender intersect.
Ageist, Racist, Who Me.
They're free.
They're downloadable.
Download them.
If it's too heavy a lift, justhave some people over, you know,
that you don't have to committo having the same people, you
know, meeting for six months.
Although if you do, it willchange your life.
(32:01):
Consciousness raising is thetool that catalyzed the
mainstream, you know, secondwave women's movement because
people came together andrealized that what they had been
assuming were personal flaws orpersonal problems We're widely
shared because of the systems inwhich we live and that we can
come together and do somethingabout them.
(32:22):
And we're in the process ofcreating just conversation
guides, which are a lighterlift.
And also, if you wanna talk topeople about this or listen to
it, again, on Old School, andagain, I co-created it, but I
don't make any money off it, butone of the things we'd like to
do is to bring people togetherwho are thinking about this
(32:43):
stuff.
and or just want to hear aboutit.
And we have an open to everyoneZoom on Wednesdays at 1.30 PM
ET.
And you can talk about whatyou're up to.
You can just lurk.
You can come late.
You can leave early.
But we want to increase thenumber of people who are talking
and thinking about this becausemore of us need to.
And it's so interesting.
Gretchen (33:04):
That's great.
We will definitely want toshare that on some of our social
media.
And again, we'll put all thisstuff in the show notes.
I didn't know all that wasgoing on.
There's great ways for peopleto get involved.
Excellent.
Okay.
So now that we know what to dowith our own attitude.
Okay.
Podcast over.
Yeah, we're done.
We can drop the mic on that,huh?
(33:27):
But what you started talking alittle bit about how we're all
living within the same systemsand getting together helps us to
recognize that this is sort ofa universal thing.
So then we're looking at someof the entrenched systemic
ageism that we find ininstitutions and in our societal
structures.
What can we do about that?
(33:48):
Is it this getting together,recognizing that and talking it
through?
Are there other specificchallenges that you can give to
listeners on that aspect ofageism?
Elizabeth (34:01):
I'm going to toss that back to your listeners and
say what systems do you inhabit?
I mean, we all live undercapitalism.
We're all prisoners of gender,most of us.
Actually, much less so, sothat's a good thing.
But Think about, I mean, aplace where age discrimination
(34:22):
hits a lot of people is, ofcourse, the workplace.
Because if you can't, you know,make a living and pay the rent,
then other things become sortof secondary.
And ageism in the workplace isoften the first form of
discrimination that white menencounter.
Unknown (34:36):
Yeah.
Elizabeth (34:37):
So there's an opportunity there for white men
and for people who know and lovewhite men to not hit them when
they're down.
But if that's their firstexperience of, oh, it's not a
level playing field out there.
It feels awful to be deniedaccess to opportunity because of
(35:00):
something you cannot changeabout yourself.
So how could that be a way toexpand their understanding or a
collective understanding of thebarriers so many other people
face to getting stuff done.
Healthcare, you know, there's, Imean, if your doctor says, what
do you expect at your age?
Find a new doctor.
If you are accompanying anolder person to the doctor and
(35:22):
the doctor insists on talking toyou and not the older person,
don't let them get away with it,right?
If you don't like the adviceyou're getting from a doctor,
say, you know, is this theadvice in your older?
Is this the advice you'd give ayounger person?
Right.
You know, call it out, whateverthe context is in.
I don't know.
(35:42):
Give me, you know, give me acontext.
I mean, we can only each of ushas our own circle and we're
going to be the most effectivein domains that we know about
and care about.
So think about how age offersan opportunity in that context
or denies an opportunity.
Think about that.
Reflect on that.
If you have a question, come tothis.
(36:03):
Come to our Wednesday session.
It's called Office Hours, 1.30.
And you don't need the rightanswer.
There isn't a right answer.
You may or may not be in aposition to call something out,
but just thinking about it andthinking of a little something,
you can say, what's up withthat?
Why is it like this is a way tohelp move the needle.
And we close every Office Hoursby saying, you can't start too
(36:29):
late and you can't start toosmall.
Anything you do helps move theneedle.
Gretchen (36:34):
So that's encouraging.
It looks like the future isbright.
It looks like we're making someheadway and moving the needle
on this ageism thing.
And I just appreciate your hardwork on this and all that
you're doing.
And it's so encouraging to hearyou talk about the things that
we can do as individuals.
So I hope you keep up thisgreat work and that we can stay
(36:56):
connected with you, Ashton.
I would love that.
Thank you for this opportunity.
Thank you for being here.
Delaney (37:09):
This is your call to action.
Every single day, 11,000Americans turn 65.
Our parents, our grandparents,our neighbors, ourselves.
And right now, the programsthat keep us healthy,
independent, and thriving areunder serious threat.
The Administration forCommunity Living and Older
(37:30):
Americans Act that providesservices like meals, caregiver
support, falls prevention, areon the chopping block.
$1.5 trillion in spending cuts?
That means real people couldlose lifelines.
But here's the truth.
When we speak, they have tolisten.
And we cannot stay silent.
(37:51):
Congress is moving fast.
They could vote by MemorialDay.
So we need you to stand up andtake action today.
Write your legislators.
Use AgeGuide's advocacy toolkiton our website.
Call your legislators.
Flood Washington with ourcollective power.
Share stories.
(38:12):
Real voices change minds.
This isn't just about budgets.
It's about dignity.
It's about making sure ourloved ones don't go hungry,
don't lose support, don't sufferbecause of cuts.
We are the voices they can'tignore.
So let me ask you.
What kind of future do you wantas you age?
(38:35):
If you believe in compassionand justice in community, then
act now.
Follow the link in the shownotes to find Age Guide's action
alerts.
Together, we are unstoppable.
Now, let's go make adifference.
Val (39:00):
Hello and welcome to your Medicare Minutes.
My name is Val Guzman and I'mthe Benefit Access Specialist
here at Age Guide.
Today we are checking in on aMedicare cost-saving benefit
called Extra Help.
This is a program that helpsreduce the cost of Medicare
prescription drug plans and thecost of your medications.
I've gotten more calls recentlyabout people receiving a letter
(39:23):
about this Extra Help programand the letter can be a bit
confusing.
Something that happens whenyou're new to Extra Help is that
you're automatically enrolledin a Medicare drug plan.
But something that's new isthat the Extra Help program
gives you the option to changeyour drug plan once a month at
(39:44):
any time in the year.
One good reason you may want todo this is if you have to take
a new medication and it's notcovered by your current plan.
Extra Help gives you someadditional flexibility to set up
your coverage in the way thatworks best for you.
If you received one of theseletters or you have questions
(40:08):
about Extra Help, feel free tocall Age Guide at
1-800-528-2000.
Gretchen (40:20):
Thank you for listening to the Age Guide,
Perspectives on the AgingJourney.
Age Guide coordinates andadministers many services for
older adults in NortheasternIllinois.
Our specially trainedprofessionals are available to
answer questions and connect youwith local service providers
and resources.
If you are interested in theseservices or want to learn more,
(40:42):
go to our website atageguide.org or call our offices
at 630-293-5990.
Please follow our podcast soyou can be notified in your
streaming account.
Thank you, and we will see younext time on The Age Guide.
Guide podcast.
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