October 30, 2024 • 35 mins
Join me for an enriching conversation with Jimena Saavedra, an Agile coach hailing from the beautiful shores of Montevideo, Uruguay. Jimena shares her journey of transformation within the world of Agile coaching, emphasizing the importance of authenticity and trust in driving meaningful change. As we bond over Uruguay's picturesque beaches, Jimena reveals the daily decisions that shape her role and the necessity of fostering genuine connections within teams. Through her candid insights, she highlights the challenges and sometimes isolating aspects of being an Agile coach, while underscoring the power of embracing discomfort to facilitate real growth.
Our discussion opens up further to examine the complexities and hurdles Agile coaches often encounter. From handling team dynamics to the delicate art of balancing professional distance with personal connections, we delve into experiences that test resilience and honesty. We recount a personal story of attempting to gather meeting time data, illustrating the importance of timing and transparency. Through shared anecdotes and mentor advice, we explore the significance of self-awareness and insightful questioning in an Agile coach's toolkit. Listeners are encouraged to stay connected with Agile communities, embrace challenges, and pursue continuous development, all while pushing teams toward accountability and growth, even when it means stepping into uncomfortable territory.
Connect with Jimena on LinkedIn:
https://linkedin.com/in/maria-jimena-saavedra
Connect with Jimena by Email:
mjsaavedra02@gmail.com
Explore Jimema's website and YouTube channel (in Spanish at the moment):
www.disruptronix.com
https://www.youtube.com/@jimenasaavedra-agilistagenuina
Discover Uruguay and Punta del Este, the Miami Beach of South America:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZC2lyuNAfo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punta_del_Este
Follow us on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-agile-within
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark (00:06):
Welcome to the Agile Within.
I am your host, mark Metz.
My mission for this podcast isto provide Agile insights into
human values and behaviorsthrough genuine connections.
My guests and I will sharereal-life stories from our Agile
journeys, triumphs, blundersand everything in between, as
(00:29):
well as the lessons that we havelearned.
So get pumped, get rocking.
The Agile Within starts now.
Well, hello everybody.
This is Mark Metz with theAgile Within.
I hope you're having anabsolutely fantastic day today.
Our guest today is XimenaSaavedra.
(00:50):
Ximena, thank you so much forcoming on the Agile Within.
Jimena (00:52):
Thank you, Mark.
Thank you very much to you.
I've been waiting for thismoment such a long time.
Mark (01:00):
Yeah, so you and I connected in a training from the
back of the room virtualedition class from Angie Agresto
.
That was a very good class andyou were one of the great people
that I met there, so not onlywas the training valuable, but I
made a great connection as well.
Jimena (01:15):
Yeah, absolutely, I agree with you.
Mark (01:19):
So, ximena, you are from Montevideo, uruguay, correct.
Jimena (01:24):
Yeah, South America.
Mark (01:26):
Yeah, so tell us, if I were coming there for a day,
what's one thing that you wouldsay that I couldn't miss doing?
Jimena (01:33):
Okay, I would definitely invite you to walk along our
Rambla.
So it's marvelous because youcan walk there a lot of
kilometers, by the sea, by theriver, in fact, and it's really
nice.
Many people coming to Uruguaythey say this is a great place
(01:55):
to walk, yeah.
Mark (01:56):
Oh nice.
Jimena (01:57):
I would definitely go with you if you come here.
Mark (02:02):
Tell me a little bit more about what it's like.
Is it very populated with trees?
Is it more open?
What is it like?
Jimena (02:10):
well, we have the rio de la plata near our country, so
it's surrounded by river, so youhave a sea all the time.
We are surrounded beaches.
So we have a very special placeand beach here.
That is Punta del Este, and Ireally recommend that.
It's like our little Miami here, so, and there are also a lot
(02:35):
of beaches more natural.
So that's I really like Uruguay, because whenever you go you
can find a beach to be there, sosummer it find a beach to be
there, so summer it's a verytypical place to go to beaches
in here, and I particularly goto Punta del Este, but when I
was younger I used to go toother beaches, so it's really
(02:58):
great that I really recommendthat.
Mark (03:01):
Absolutely.
I grew up going to the beach,so where I live in South
Carolina, it's a couple hoursfrom the ocean, from the coast.
So I spent a lot of time myselfas a young lad, so to speak,
and also as an adult just enjoythe sounds of the ocean, the
sounds of the water, just verycalming.
And yeah, how do you have a badtime at the beach?
(03:22):
Yeah, impossible, yeah, how doyou have a bad time at the beat?
Come on, yeah, impossible.
The title for today's episodeis being a Genuine Agile Coach
is a Daily Choice Boy.
That is a very interestingtitle.
What led you, ximena, tochoosing this topic, and why is
it important to be a dailychoice?
Jimena (03:46):
Sometimes, when I wake up, I have this feeling and this
thought what I was thinkingwhen I decided to be an agile
coach I could have an easy job,or at least when I started my
first steps, I thought it wouldbe more easier.
But the thing is that while Ispeak with other Agile coaches,
(04:08):
I go to conferences or in thecommunities that I'm part of, a
Uruguayan community Agile UI welike share the same like feeling
of how we motivate ourselves tobe an Agile coach.
First of all, it's veryrelieving to understand that I'm
not alone.
Many people think the same andI hope the audience if they also
(04:33):
find like I'm not alone whilelistening to this and this
reflection is more often thanyou might think Because this
person, this agile coach, who isexpected to find strength
without knowing where tofacilitate something, to have a
difficult conversation, and alsoyou have to build trust in
(04:55):
order to generate the change.
So for me, it's a bigresponsibility.
So, after several situationsand after accompanying many
teams, I realized that being aGenene coach, it's something
that you choose every day andthat's what I would like to
share with you today.
Mark (05:16):
So you say that you're not alone, but I think it's
important to acknowledge it canbe a lonely position.
You can feel isolated.
While you're part of the team,you're different many times,
right.
Jimena (05:30):
Yeah, that's very important because you have to be
part of the team.
How do you expect people tomake them want to change if
you're not part of that?
So that's very important.
And the trust thing issomething that for me, is vital.
I mean, an agile coach cannotthink of bringing any change
(05:52):
question on the table, anythingif you don't have the trust of
the people.
So sometimes you say, hey, it'sbeen three months here, I
cannot provoke any change, butmaybe what you are trying is to
build this trust and then, whenyou have this, it's more easy
going.
Also, things flow morenaturally, you know.
(06:14):
But first of all, I would like,mark, if you agree, to define
why I differentiate this term ofbeing genuine.
Mark (06:22):
Sure.
Jimena (06:23):
You can find many agile coaches scrum masters,
facilitators but for me, thosewho can make the change happen
are those who are genuine, andlet me explain why, or how I see
something genuine, or what isthis word?
For me, an Agile coach means tobe uncomfortable most of the
(06:45):
time when, when you do something, when you facilitate, when you
have a difficult conversation,when you want to present a plan,
you have to deal with this tobeing uncomfortable, and an
Agile coach needs not to bestuck on this state and trying
to speak about how uncomfortablethis job is, because you
(07:06):
sometimes are putting things onthe table that anybody wants to
hear, to any level of theorganization.
Sometimes even my inner voicesays why I don't want to be in
this conversation.
I really feel veryuncomfortable and maybe trying
to explicit this to the otherperson in a way that you are
(07:28):
also part of this change andthis is not easy.
Also for me, that startsgenerating like distrust
relationship.
For me, doing agile is notsomething that I do once, but
it's a mindset that I need toconstantly and daily nurture.
It's not something that youlearn in a course.
(07:50):
It's an everyday exercise,because every day, your teams
will teach you something newbeing a genuine agile goal meets
.
You need to be uncomfortableand being open to change, every
day if needed.
Mark (08:04):
You have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.
Jimena (08:07):
Absolutely.
Mark (08:08):
There's like a balance to be had right.
If you keep your teams totallyuncomfortable all of the time,
it's going to be hard to maketraction.
So it's hard to find thatbalance sometimes or at least it
is for me to find that balancebetween being challenging and
being encouraging.
Jimena (08:27):
Yeah, and that's a very, very difficult skill to develop
being an agigola and doing okay.
This is the point where I needto change something, because if
I change, maybe the contextwould change.
But first of all, it is goodthe team to feel uncomfortable,
(08:48):
in a sense that because ofraising a question or putting a
situation on the table, thiswill create more trust.
That for me, it's good to beuncomfortably expected.
You know, I also have learnedthat sometimes, because of the
way I facilitate and because ofthe face of the team you are
(09:10):
facilitating or a company, youhave to switch your leadership
style, because I consider myselfalso a leader, because I
influence.
Also, if I come with a plan andI have a facilitation technique
or a transformation orevolution plan and the team is
in a phase where we cannot speakabout having, for example,
(09:33):
don't expect them to bring allthe problems and sincere
feelings on the table.
You have to start slowly tryingto like dragging the things
into the team until a point thatwhere they can speak openly.
So if, for achieving that state, you have to change a bit your
style, that's not bad and youhave to be open to change that
(09:59):
and you might say, hey, no, thisis not what I wanted.
I really wanted to start doingsomething by the team, but they
are not allowing me Start themto allow you, maybe by you
changing the way you approachthem.
I like Goldman's leadershipstyles.
He explains all the leadershipstyles and none of them are bad.
(10:21):
But if you use them purely that, where I think it won't be,
have a success on your team.
But sometimes your team needsto be signed the election and
that's okay.
You can switch to that leaderstyle.
That's not bad.
And sometimes and this is wherethe challenge comes you have to
see, as an agile coach, whenyour team needs another
(10:44):
leadership style, like, forexample OK, I will leave this
directed or authoritativeleadership style and I will go
more to a coaching one, or maybeI will need to go to a more
democratic or whatever you know.
So that's the challenge of anagile coach you need to know
where to switch the style.
(11:05):
Sometimes it hurt me because itwent against all my plans.
Mark (11:09):
So If you're familiar with .
Sorry, I don't mean to step ontop of you If you're familiar
with the Agile Coaching GrowthWheel.
That is an absolutely fantasticresource to have because it
outlines the different stancesthat an agile coach can and
should take.
So my question for yourevolving around this because
(11:29):
you can take different stances,but you mentioned being a
genuine agile coach and, likefor me and my leadership style,
I'm not the type that's going topound the table, that's going
to shout, that's going to beextremely direct and tell people
when they've not lived up toexpectations.
(11:51):
I am much more of an encourager.
That's just the way that my DNAis, that's the way my parents
were, that's the way I coachedkids and I was very it came
across as very authentic andbecause that's who I was, I was
much more of an encourager and Ihave a small story to tell in
just a minute that may give someinsight into that.
(12:13):
But my question for you is howdo you balance using these
different leadership styles butalso being genuine and authentic
at the same time?
Jimena (12:25):
Being transparent to the team.
Let me give an example.
There was like an exercisesometime I wanted to do with one
of the teams I accompany and Iwanted them to help me to feel
some information forunderstanding how much time they
spend on meetings.
But I don't know why.
(12:47):
I felt that the team was nothappy with that.
Okay, so they go.
Hey, jimena, I don't think this.
So I learned and I said I thinkthis is not the moment for
doing that In other situations.
I think this is the right momentbecause you are asking for
(13:07):
understanding why you spend somuch time in doing things.
So, seeing you in many meetings, this could help.
But I understand that maybe youare not in a phase, or I don't
want to say willingness becausethey won't, or I don't want to
say willingness because theywant, but maybe something else
is needed for you to understandwhat this problem is.
(13:29):
So I was very open to them.
I say this was my plan, but Idon't think the way I'm trying
to get this information issomething that you feel
comfortable with.
I will hold on this.
Let's see in the future if thisarises again, but for the
moment I will hold it, andsometimes that's what it hurt me
(13:51):
a lot.
Know when to hold it, becauseit's like Agile Goals just need
every time to show results, andsometimes you have to wait for
the team's time until there is asign or something that says,
hey, this is the moment youshould be doing something else,
because there are evidence.
Take this evidence and show itto the team.
(14:12):
Hey, do you remember when youhad this question about how much
meetings you were having or howmany meetings you were having?
Don't you think this situationthat is happening now relates to
that?
Can we retake this thing andmove forward?
So sometimes you need to feelthat signal from the team and
(14:32):
take it.
Start from there.
That's how you learn to betransparent to them and very,
completely honest, because Idon't know why this figure of
the Agile Code sometimes is hey,this is the person who will
resolve all of our problems.
And this person also has, like,the skill to motivate herself.
She doesn't need anybody tomotivate her.
(14:54):
I don't know, maybe this iskind of some kind of superhero
coming from heaven.
No, that's not the thing,because of my process of being a
coach helps you much more thannot having these skills, because
you know that your actions aredriven by emotions also, so
being conscious about theseemotions helps you maybe a bit
(15:16):
more than not having theseskills, so being honest has been
a really very good tool withthe team.
Mark (15:24):
I would say yes to all of that.
And if something isuncomfortable for you to share,
share that.
This is uncomfortable for me tosay, but I'm going to say it
anyway.
If you're eating dinner withsomeone or you're in a group and
someone has you know, justimagine they're eating and they
have food on their face, thatcan be like a coaching moment
(15:47):
for you.
What do you do?
It's probably more comfortablefor you to just say I'm going to
go to the restroom right nowand just avoid it.
But is that really the rightthing to do?
I've had that time before.
I had to say you know what.
This is incrediblyuncomfortable for me to say, but
if I were, if the were reversed?
I would want you to saysomething to tell me nicely.
Jimena (16:08):
You have something on your face.
How do you do skin hacking yourteeth?
Mark (16:11):
Oh yes, oh yes.
Jimena (16:13):
The same thing.
Mark (16:16):
Sometimes we can get so ingrained with the team, we can
get too friendly to some extent.
You almost have to like becausewe are part of the team and I
feel like you really have tohave that bond.
But you almost have to takethat step back or take that step
up and have a higher view andsay I'm going to either say this
or do this action because it'sfor the betterment of the team.
Jimena (16:38):
Yes, and you said that to be friendly or not, for me
and for a recent situation I hadwith a team that is not very
used to have an externalfacilitator If they're very used
to someone who tries to be niceand that hears a lot what the
(16:59):
team is trying to, what is theteam's message, but the thing is
that a facilitator has also tohave some rules for the
facilitation.
And being a facilitator doesn'tmean, for example, to be the
friend of all of them and if I,for example, in a group coaching
session or in a retrospectiveor whatever, I feel there's
(17:22):
something under the carpet Idon't know, or the elephant in
the room but nobody sees, I willraise that question.
Another thing that maybe teamsare not very used to, when you
start facilitating things forthe first time and they're
seeing you how you facilitate isthe time moderation.
Sometimes, when you don't havethese skills, you will let
(17:43):
people speak all the time theywant.
You will see all the catharsisthere and they start in a
analysis, paralysis situationwhere they cannot get out.
And when you put some rules on,hey guys, let's try to take
some action and some plans inorder not to be in this
situation anymore and try tofind some actions on your own,
(18:06):
because it's very difficultputting the blame on the others
sometimes, or how responsibleare you of the situation and so?
So when you do this question,you make this question to the
team.
They really don't like it, andmaybe this time you, as an agile
coach, you will feel I messedit up.
I won't return to this team.
(18:27):
They hate me.
They really hate me.
I won't come again.
But if you, your intentions were, hey guy, what you are saying
is this.
What's generating all thesefeelings?
Why you're saying this and, atthe same time, this, and what
I'm seeing is that there areonly five minutes left in the
(18:47):
session and we haven't come upwith any action plan in order to
move forward.
So that's something that willmake them uncomfortable.
They were not used to that.
Hey, someone is asking me to beresponsible.
That's what you're trying to.
That's the message me to beresponsible.
That's what you're trying to.
That's the message.
First of all, when you havethese feelings about I messed it
(19:08):
up, the first question is doyou think that, if everything
went well, do you think an Agilegoal is needed?
Do you think someone told youthat you have to be everybody's
friend here, because sometimesyou need to bring all these
topics on the table, and that'syour job.
Mark (19:27):
And usually it just takes that first time Mentioning the
elephant in the room.
Once you put that on the table,it's like people.
You can almost see them exhaleand say yes, yes, jimena, yes,
absolutely.
I'm so glad you said that andhopefully that success leads to
(19:49):
more successes so that youaren't the only one having to
announce that elephant in theroom, right?
Jimena (19:55):
Yeah.
Mark (19:56):
Maybe next time you can go in and say it seems to me like
there's something that's notbeing said Absolutely and just
pause.
Just pause for a minute.
And sometimes you have to beuncomfortable.
Be comfortable with beinguncomfortable in that pause of
not saying anything.
Finally, someone will breakthrough and just say well,
(20:16):
nobody's going to say it, so I'mjust going to go ahead and say
it.
We're just not working togetheras a team, we're working
together as individuals.
We're just not working togetheras a team, we're working
together as individuals.
Okay, we've said it.
Now we can have theconversation, but until until
you acknowledge it, you're justgoing to continue to dance
around the the main problem,right?
Jimena (20:34):
Yeah.
And there will be people whowill never be comfortable with
this kind of questions.
That's another thing.
The agile coach and me for meneeds to be very aware there
will.
There will be allies on yourprocess of transformation and
you will have detractors, andyou have to be very aware of how
(20:58):
to influence those kind ofpeople and who are the ones who
will help you.
And there are also the gooddetractors who will make you see
the dark part of maybe that youare not able to see those I
want in my team.
The rest will like.
I think that times allows thefilter to start filtering the
(21:20):
team, you know, because the teamwill start doing some their own
culture, their own balance, andthose who do not fit into the
team, I think the team will letthem know that they are some
kind of attitudes or behaviorsare not welcome.
Even though, while we reachthis kind of status in a team,
(21:41):
the HR coach still has emotionsregarding this.
In my case, I feel like anguish.
Why is it not happening?
Because even though I try tochange the way I do things or
changing my mental model inorder to meet the team's mental
model or to understand the facewhere they are, it still impacts
(22:04):
me and sometimes it hurts and Ithink it's okay to tell the
team that and it's healthy foryou to say these are things that
are impacting me.
Mark (22:15):
We've talked about some really tough things that an
Agile coach has to do.
Talking about these toughconversations mentioning the
elephant in the room reallyhaving to broach these hard,
maybe deep-rooted conversationsfor the team hard maybe deep
(22:35):
rooted conversations from theteam and I'm feeling kind of
heavy and maybe a little bitdown just from this conversation
, because it is heavy and that'ssomething real that I think we
all feel.
But where do we get our support?
Because we can't stay in thatlow place.
We can't stay I'm giving airquotes in the drama of the team.
We can't have that negativetalk within our minds.
(22:56):
Stay, because otherwise it'sgoing to manifest itself and the
team's going to see that.
Where do we go to get thatsupport so that we lift
ourselves out of these lowpoints?
Jimena (23:10):
Yes, and I really feel that sometimes, even though
you're the best coach, sometimesyou may have these feelings
because we are human and we canunderstand that.
These are emotions, these arefeelings, but sometimes you are
human and you also want thingsto happen and be successful,
(23:34):
also for you, for the team,whatever conversation you're
having.
I mean, maybe you have tochallenge the leadership of the
company.
So it's not a very easy task.
At one point, hey, I kind ofhave this feeling all the time,
all the way.
So how can I help myself tokeep moving and keep my team
moving and keep the leadershipteam moving?
(23:56):
First of all, it's a goodexercise to be coached.
Like therapists they go totherapy For me from time to time
, being coached because I don'tfind which my dilemma is and
where is my carbon status andwhere I want to be when that is
very messy and I don't, andwhere I want to be when that is
very like messy and I don't find.
I try to be coached, or atleast someone who can understand
(24:20):
which my situation is and bringme some clarity on the
questions I have to do to myself, to make to myself.
So that's one thing I generallyfind very calming Seek
mentorship.
You don't have to be.
You don't need to know all thethings in Agile and I don't know
(24:40):
everything.
So please first be honest toyour team that I don't know and
I will learn and be mentoredabout that.
Maybe you need mentoring abouthow to apply these things for
the first time.
You're teaching your team thatlearning is not something bad.
Maybe you need mentoring abouthow to apply these things for
the first time.
You're teaching your team thatlearning is not something bad.
(25:00):
If the first person who ishelping you needs to learn,
that's a very good sign to theteam.
Hey, I don't know that.
Let me see how I can learnabout this.
Or maybe another thing thatalso happened to me is I don't
know.
I know your time is differentfrom mine because I have to
learn, so maybe you have to seekexternal help for that part in
order for the team to keepmoving.
And then I learn and the secondtime, maybe I will be able to
(25:22):
mentor you Be part of agilecommunities.
Many people is in your ownsituation.
Maybe you don't even know thatagile communities are in your
country, your place.
I don't know whatever.
So try to find these agilecommunities.
You will find very nice peoplewho is willing to help you, and
also for free, because we're acommunity.
(25:43):
Sharing knowledge with othersand listening to others'
experience is also kind ofrelieving.
It's like a very calmingexperience knowing that others
can help you and others arehaving the same situation as you
, for example, in Uruguay.
I'm a very supporter of anagile community here the Agile
(26:05):
UE so it's very nice being partof a community.
You learn a lot from others.
For me, those things are threethings that give me that energy
boost whenever I'm in this kindof situation.
Hey, this is the maximum I cansupport.
No, try to get out of thesenegative thinkings.
(26:26):
Be coached.
Try to speak with someone else.
Be part of communities, bementored, because something when
you don't know, this learningthing gets you anguished and
it's because you don't know.
So try to learn that and acceptthat maybe someone has to take
your role at some techniquebecause you don't know
(26:46):
everything, and then start doingthat on your own when you learn
.
And then start doing that onyour own when you learn.
That's not control losing orauthority losing.
Try to be honest to your team.
Hey, this part I'm not veryknowledgeable.
I will bring some other whoknows and I will learn.
Mark (27:02):
So you mentioned communities or the agile
community.
That played a huge part andthat was why I shifted my career
to where I am now, because youdon't find that everywhere.
There are other professionswhere your peers may be looked
upon as adversaries and you'rethere to prove yourself that
(27:24):
you're better than them, but Ifind quite the opposite in the
Agile community, that mostpeople are very humble.
They are willing to share themissteps that they've had.
Ximena, I'll just say I don'tknow how many times I've come
and just said you know, I've hadthis horrible day, I had this
situation and I felt like Iabsolutely flopped, I feel like
(27:47):
I took a step back in my career.
And how many times someone saidyou know, I had the exact same
experience.
And just being able to sharethat and connect with someone
and hear how they overcame orhow they approach that, it's
very helpful and not havesomeone on the other end feel
like, oh, should you go dosomething different.
(28:07):
That's extremely helpful to me.
And you know I won't generalizeand maybe not everybody is like
that, but by and large, a largemajority of the people that
I've interfaced with in theAgile community has been very
welcoming, very uplifting andchallenging as well.
(28:28):
Now I want to reinforce oneother thing that you mentioned,
and that's about being honestwith what you don't know, and
sometimes we have thesepersonalities that, for whatever
reason, we're insecure and wecan come across to be too
apologetic.
Again, there's this balance thatyou have to maintain.
(28:49):
You can be honest, but at somepoint you can, like, start being
too honest and not givingyourself enough credit.
You're beating yourself up andthat really does hurt your
credibility and pretty soonpeople are saying well, gosh
Mark says he doesn't know how todo this.
He doesn't know how to do that.
He screwed this up.
Is there anything he can dothat's worthwhile?
(29:11):
So you have to balance thathonesty, and my dad gave me the
best advice I'd ever heard in mylife.
My dad told me be honest, justdon't be stupid.
Honest.
Jimena (29:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
I really.
I really liked what you saidand that's I mean, for example,
I'm not a very technicalknowledgeable, but I have like
the skill of bringing thoseskills to the team by bringing
the people who knows about that.
And maybe I'm not veryknowledgeable on Git or
(29:45):
something like that, but I'mgood at bringing all the parts
together and get themcommunicating and start talking.
So that's where I think myvalue is.
Mark (29:55):
To mention this again you're not so far down in the
weeds that you can't see the bigpicture.
I think that's part of yourrole is to have that 30,000 foot
view and maybe prompt the teamto say I know we're working hard
, I know we're trying to do, butit seems like we're spending
too much time in this area.
Or if you have data you canbring to show the team and they
(30:19):
may be like oh, you're right,damon Poole is a absolutely
fabulous Agile coach and hetaught a course through IC Agile
and he shared an example thatreally hit the nail on the head
for me with the job of an Agilecoach.
And he was just sitting andobserving a daily scrum and the
(30:40):
team had.
They were using JIRA or usingsome tools and they were going
through the swim lanes one byone, talking about the work that
they were doing, and he sort ofsensed that they were talking
about a lot of things andinstead of just saying that, he
asked the team.
He said can you do me a favorfor just a second?
(31:00):
Can you just take the swimlanes off for me for just a
minute and let's take a look?
And when he did, it wasapparent that how much work was
actually in process by the teams.
And he said he could hear theteams actually audibly gasp and
they were like we didn't evenrealize we were focusing on one
(31:21):
swim lane at a time and itseemed like we weren't working
on much at the same time.
But now that we remove it wesee, yes, absolutely.
So that is an absolutelyperfect picture of what an agile
coach can bring from a team.
You're not so deep into it thatyou can't zoom out a little bit
and see the big picture.
Jimena (31:41):
And making right questions in the right moment is
also a skill that is notachieved by only one coaching
session or coaching course.
That comes with time when tomake those powerful questions
and at which time is the mostadequate.
And maybe you are not a verytechnical person, but bringing
(32:03):
the question that's.
For me it's like a big step.
Mark (32:08):
Totally agree.
Well, ximena, as we're startingto run out of time here, I want
to ask you you and I talkedabout a lot of the challenges
that an Agile coach has to face,and they aren't always easy to
approach those what is the bestpiece of advice that you have
for them as they face theirchallenges on a day-to-day basis
(32:29):
?
Jimena (32:31):
on a day-to-day basis.
First of all, that resilienceand some kind of frustration
needs to be.
They need to be your friends.
Don't see them as enemy.
You cannot be frustrated allthe time.
For that I already gave yousome piece of advice of being
coached be mentored, join someagile community so that you can
(32:54):
learn and that frustration will.
You will see that it will bediminished.
There is something verypowerful that being friend of
this, being comfortable withbeing uncomfortable the time I
wake up if any day, I wake upokay, and I stop choosing being
(33:15):
uncomfortable and I want to gofor the easy path instead of the
right path, I know it's timefor me to reconsider my path.
That's what I'm learning fromall my Agile code journey till
now.
Mark (33:33):
Very well said, Ximena.
So if our listeners want tocontact you, what's the best way
for them to do that?
Jimena (33:41):
Yeah, well, my LinkedIn.
My name is very long there,Mark.
Maybe I will give you mydetails.
And also I have my webpage thatis disruptronicscom, and also I
have my webpage that isdisruptronicscom, and also I can
leave my contact, my email, sowe can have a quick talk there.
We can set up some call.
(34:01):
If someone wants to have somecoaching session with me
regarding this or some mentoringregarding this, I don't have
any problems.
So please feel free to contactme if this is happening to you
and you want some advice from myhumble opinion.
Mark (34:20):
That's great.
We'll put all those links inthe show notes to make it easy
for our listeners out there tocontact you, ximena, thank you
so much for coming on the AgileWithin.
It's been a privilege.
Jimena (34:30):
Thank you, mark, and thanks to you for asking me to
do that absolutely all right,everybody.
Mark (34:36):
It's a wrap.
We'll see everybody next time.
Thanks for joining us foranother episode of the agile
within.
If you haven't already, pleasejoin our linkedin page to stay
in touch.
Just search for the AgileWithin and please spread the
(34:57):
word with your friends andcolleagues Until next time.
This has been your host, markMetz.
Welcome to the Agile Within.
I am your host, mark Metz.
My mission for this podcast isto provide Agile insights into
human values and behaviorsthrough genuine connections.
My guests and I will sharereal-life stories from our Agile
journeys, triumphs, blundersand everything in between, as
(00:29):
well as the lessons that we havelearned.
So get pumped, get rocking.
The Agile Within starts now.
Well, hello everybody.
This is Mark Metz with theAgile Within.
I hope you're having anabsolutely fantastic day today.
Our guest today is XimenaSaavedra.
(00:50):
Ximena, thank you so much forcoming on the Agile Within.
Jimena (00:52):
Thank you, Mark.
Thank you very much to you.
I've been waiting for thismoment such a long time.
Mark (01:00):
Yeah, so you and I connected in a training from the
back of the room virtualedition class from Angie Agresto
.
That was a very good class andyou were one of the great people
that I met there, so not onlywas the training valuable, but I
made a great connection as well.
Jimena (01:15):
Yeah, absolutely, I agree with you.
Mark (01:19):
So, ximena, you are from Montevideo, uruguay, correct.
Jimena (01:24):
Yeah, South America.
Mark (01:26):
Yeah, so tell us, if I were coming there for a day,
what's one thing that you wouldsay that I couldn't miss doing?
Jimena (01:33):
Okay, I would definitely invite you to walk along our
Rambla.
So it's marvelous because youcan walk there a lot of
kilometers, by the sea, by theriver, in fact, and it's really
nice.
Many people coming to Uruguaythey say this is a great place
(01:55):
to walk, yeah.
Mark (01:56):
Oh nice.
Jimena (01:57):
I would definitely go with you if you come here.
Mark (02:02):
Tell me a little bit more about what it's like.
Is it very populated with trees?
Is it more open?
What is it like?
Jimena (02:10):
well, we have the rio de la plata near our country, so
it's surrounded by river, so youhave a sea all the time.
We are surrounded beaches.
So we have a very special placeand beach here.
That is Punta del Este, and Ireally recommend that.
It's like our little Miami here, so, and there are also a lot
(02:35):
of beaches more natural.
So that's I really like Uruguay, because whenever you go you
can find a beach to be there, sosummer it find a beach to be
there, so summer it's a verytypical place to go to beaches
in here, and I particularly goto Punta del Este, but when I
was younger I used to go toother beaches, so it's really
(02:58):
great that I really recommendthat.
Mark (03:01):
Absolutely.
I grew up going to the beach,so where I live in South
Carolina, it's a couple hoursfrom the ocean, from the coast.
So I spent a lot of time myselfas a young lad, so to speak,
and also as an adult just enjoythe sounds of the ocean, the
sounds of the water, just verycalming.
And yeah, how do you have a badtime at the beach?
(03:22):
Yeah, impossible, yeah, how doyou have a bad time at the beat?
Come on, yeah, impossible.
The title for today's episodeis being a Genuine Agile Coach
is a Daily Choice Boy.
That is a very interestingtitle.
What led you, ximena, tochoosing this topic, and why is
it important to be a dailychoice?
Jimena (03:46):
Sometimes, when I wake up, I have this feeling and this
thought what I was thinkingwhen I decided to be an agile
coach I could have an easy job,or at least when I started my
first steps, I thought it wouldbe more easier.
But the thing is that while Ispeak with other Agile coaches,
(04:08):
I go to conferences or in thecommunities that I'm part of, a
Uruguayan community Agile UI welike share the same like feeling
of how we motivate ourselves tobe an Agile coach.
First of all, it's veryrelieving to understand that I'm
not alone.
Many people think the same andI hope the audience if they also
(04:33):
find like I'm not alone whilelistening to this and this
reflection is more often thanyou might think Because this
person, this agile coach, who isexpected to find strength
without knowing where tofacilitate something, to have a
difficult conversation, and alsoyou have to build trust in
(04:55):
order to generate the change.
So for me, it's a bigresponsibility.
So, after several situationsand after accompanying many
teams, I realized that being aGenene coach, it's something
that you choose every day andthat's what I would like to
share with you today.
Mark (05:16):
So you say that you're not alone, but I think it's
important to acknowledge it canbe a lonely position.
You can feel isolated.
While you're part of the team,you're different many times,
right.
Jimena (05:30):
Yeah, that's very important because you have to be
part of the team.
How do you expect people tomake them want to change if
you're not part of that?
So that's very important.
And the trust thing issomething that for me, is vital.
I mean, an agile coach cannotthink of bringing any change
(05:52):
question on the table, anythingif you don't have the trust of
the people.
So sometimes you say, hey, it'sbeen three months here, I
cannot provoke any change, butmaybe what you are trying is to
build this trust and then, whenyou have this, it's more easy
going.
Also, things flow morenaturally, you know.
(06:14):
But first of all, I would like,mark, if you agree, to define
why I differentiate this term ofbeing genuine.
Mark (06:22):
Sure.
Jimena (06:23):
You can find many agile coaches scrum masters,
facilitators but for me, thosewho can make the change happen
are those who are genuine, andlet me explain why, or how I see
something genuine, or what isthis word?
For me, an Agile coach means tobe uncomfortable most of the
(06:45):
time when, when you do something, when you facilitate, when you
have a difficult conversation,when you want to present a plan,
you have to deal with this tobeing uncomfortable, and an
Agile coach needs not to bestuck on this state and trying
to speak about how uncomfortablethis job is, because you
(07:06):
sometimes are putting things onthe table that anybody wants to
hear, to any level of theorganization.
Sometimes even my inner voicesays why I don't want to be in
this conversation.
I really feel veryuncomfortable and maybe trying
to explicit this to the otherperson in a way that you are
(07:28):
also part of this change andthis is not easy.
Also for me, that startsgenerating like distrust
relationship.
For me, doing agile is notsomething that I do once, but
it's a mindset that I need toconstantly and daily nurture.
It's not something that youlearn in a course.
(07:50):
It's an everyday exercise,because every day, your teams
will teach you something newbeing a genuine agile goal meets
.
You need to be uncomfortableand being open to change, every
day if needed.
Mark (08:04):
You have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.
Jimena (08:07):
Absolutely.
Mark (08:08):
There's like a balance to be had right.
If you keep your teams totallyuncomfortable all of the time,
it's going to be hard to maketraction.
So it's hard to find thatbalance sometimes or at least it
is for me to find that balancebetween being challenging and
being encouraging.
Jimena (08:27):
Yeah, and that's a very, very difficult skill to develop
being an agigola and doing okay.
This is the point where I needto change something, because if
I change, maybe the contextwould change.
But first of all, it is goodthe team to feel uncomfortable,
(08:48):
in a sense that because ofraising a question or putting a
situation on the table, thiswill create more trust.
That for me, it's good to beuncomfortably expected.
You know, I also have learnedthat sometimes, because of the
way I facilitate and because ofthe face of the team you are
(09:10):
facilitating or a company, youhave to switch your leadership
style, because I consider myselfalso a leader, because I
influence.
Also, if I come with a plan andI have a facilitation technique
or a transformation orevolution plan and the team is
in a phase where we cannot speakabout having, for example,
(09:33):
don't expect them to bring allthe problems and sincere
feelings on the table.
You have to start slowly tryingto like dragging the things
into the team until a point thatwhere they can speak openly.
So if, for achieving that state, you have to change a bit your
style, that's not bad and youhave to be open to change that
(09:59):
and you might say, hey, no, thisis not what I wanted.
I really wanted to start doingsomething by the team, but they
are not allowing me Start themto allow you, maybe by you
changing the way you approachthem.
I like Goldman's leadershipstyles.
He explains all the leadershipstyles and none of them are bad.
(10:21):
But if you use them purely that, where I think it won't be,
have a success on your team.
But sometimes your team needsto be signed the election and
that's okay.
You can switch to that leaderstyle.
That's not bad.
And sometimes and this is wherethe challenge comes you have to
see, as an agile coach, whenyour team needs another
(10:44):
leadership style, like, forexample OK, I will leave this
directed or authoritativeleadership style and I will go
more to a coaching one, or maybeI will need to go to a more
democratic or whatever you know.
So that's the challenge of anagile coach you need to know
where to switch the style.
(11:05):
Sometimes it hurt me because itwent against all my plans.
Mark (11:09):
So If you're familiar with .
Sorry, I don't mean to step ontop of you If you're familiar
with the Agile Coaching GrowthWheel.
That is an absolutely fantasticresource to have because it
outlines the different stancesthat an agile coach can and
should take.
So my question for yourevolving around this because
(11:29):
you can take different stances,but you mentioned being a
genuine agile coach and, likefor me and my leadership style,
I'm not the type that's going topound the table, that's going
to shout, that's going to beextremely direct and tell people
when they've not lived up toexpectations.
(11:51):
I am much more of an encourager.
That's just the way that my DNAis, that's the way my parents
were, that's the way I coachedkids and I was very it came
across as very authentic andbecause that's who I was, I was
much more of an encourager and Ihave a small story to tell in
just a minute that may give someinsight into that.
(12:13):
But my question for you is howdo you balance using these
different leadership styles butalso being genuine and authentic
at the same time?
Jimena (12:25):
Being transparent to the team.
Let me give an example.
There was like an exercisesometime I wanted to do with one
of the teams I accompany and Iwanted them to help me to feel
some information forunderstanding how much time they
spend on meetings.
But I don't know why.
(12:47):
I felt that the team was nothappy with that.
Okay, so they go.
Hey, jimena, I don't think this.
So I learned and I said I thinkthis is not the moment for
doing that In other situations.
I think this is the right momentbecause you are asking for
(13:07):
understanding why you spend somuch time in doing things.
So, seeing you in many meetings, this could help.
But I understand that maybe youare not in a phase, or I don't
want to say willingness becausethey won't, or I don't want to
say willingness because theywant, but maybe something else
is needed for you to understandwhat this problem is.
(13:29):
So I was very open to them.
I say this was my plan, but Idon't think the way I'm trying
to get this information issomething that you feel
comfortable with.
I will hold on this.
Let's see in the future if thisarises again, but for the
moment I will hold it, andsometimes that's what it hurt me
(13:51):
a lot.
Know when to hold it, becauseit's like Agile Goals just need
every time to show results, andsometimes you have to wait for
the team's time until there is asign or something that says,
hey, this is the moment youshould be doing something else,
because there are evidence.
Take this evidence and show itto the team.
(14:12):
Hey, do you remember when youhad this question about how much
meetings you were having or howmany meetings you were having?
Don't you think this situationthat is happening now relates to
that?
Can we retake this thing andmove forward?
So sometimes you need to feelthat signal from the team and
(14:32):
take it.
Start from there.
That's how you learn to betransparent to them and very,
completely honest, because Idon't know why this figure of
the Agile Code sometimes is hey,this is the person who will
resolve all of our problems.
And this person also has, like,the skill to motivate herself.
She doesn't need anybody tomotivate her.
(14:54):
I don't know, maybe this iskind of some kind of superhero
coming from heaven.
No, that's not the thing,because of my process of being a
coach helps you much more thannot having these skills, because
you know that your actions aredriven by emotions also, so
being conscious about theseemotions helps you maybe a bit
(15:16):
more than not having theseskills, so being honest has been
a really very good tool withthe team.
Mark (15:24):
I would say yes to all of that.
And if something isuncomfortable for you to share,
share that.
This is uncomfortable for me tosay, but I'm going to say it
anyway.
If you're eating dinner withsomeone or you're in a group and
someone has you know, justimagine they're eating and they
have food on their face, thatcan be like a coaching moment
(15:47):
for you.
What do you do?
It's probably more comfortablefor you to just say I'm going to
go to the restroom right nowand just avoid it.
But is that really the rightthing to do?
I've had that time before.
I had to say you know what.
This is incrediblyuncomfortable for me to say, but
if I were, if the were reversed?
I would want you to saysomething to tell me nicely.
Jimena (16:08):
You have something on your face.
How do you do skin hacking yourteeth?
Mark (16:11):
Oh yes, oh yes.
Jimena (16:13):
The same thing.
Mark (16:16):
Sometimes we can get so ingrained with the team, we can
get too friendly to some extent.
You almost have to like becausewe are part of the team and I
feel like you really have tohave that bond.
But you almost have to takethat step back or take that step
up and have a higher view andsay I'm going to either say this
or do this action because it'sfor the betterment of the team.
Jimena (16:38):
Yes, and you said that to be friendly or not, for me
and for a recent situation I hadwith a team that is not very
used to have an externalfacilitator If they're very used
to someone who tries to be niceand that hears a lot what the
(16:59):
team is trying to, what is theteam's message, but the thing is
that a facilitator has also tohave some rules for the
facilitation.
And being a facilitator doesn'tmean, for example, to be the
friend of all of them and if I,for example, in a group coaching
session or in a retrospectiveor whatever, I feel there's
(17:22):
something under the carpet Idon't know, or the elephant in
the room but nobody sees, I willraise that question.
Another thing that maybe teamsare not very used to, when you
start facilitating things forthe first time and they're
seeing you how you facilitate isthe time moderation.
Sometimes, when you don't havethese skills, you will let
(17:43):
people speak all the time theywant.
You will see all the catharsisthere and they start in a
analysis, paralysis situationwhere they cannot get out.
And when you put some rules on,hey guys, let's try to take
some action and some plans inorder not to be in this
situation anymore and try tofind some actions on your own,
(18:06):
because it's very difficultputting the blame on the others
sometimes, or how responsibleare you of the situation and so?
So when you do this question,you make this question to the
team.
They really don't like it, andmaybe this time you, as an agile
coach, you will feel I messedit up.
I won't return to this team.
(18:27):
They hate me.
They really hate me.
I won't come again.
But if you, your intentions were, hey guy, what you are saying
is this.
What's generating all thesefeelings?
Why you're saying this and, atthe same time, this, and what
I'm seeing is that there areonly five minutes left in the
(18:47):
session and we haven't come upwith any action plan in order to
move forward.
So that's something that willmake them uncomfortable.
They were not used to that.
Hey, someone is asking me to beresponsible.
That's what you're trying to.
That's the message me to beresponsible.
That's what you're trying to.
That's the message.
First of all, when you havethese feelings about I messed it
(19:08):
up, the first question is doyou think that, if everything
went well, do you think an Agilegoal is needed?
Do you think someone told youthat you have to be everybody's
friend here, because sometimesyou need to bring all these
topics on the table, and that'syour job.
Mark (19:27):
And usually it just takes that first time Mentioning the
elephant in the room.
Once you put that on the table,it's like people.
You can almost see them exhaleand say yes, yes, jimena, yes,
absolutely.
I'm so glad you said that andhopefully that success leads to
(19:49):
more successes so that youaren't the only one having to
announce that elephant in theroom, right?
Jimena (19:55):
Yeah.
Mark (19:56):
Maybe next time you can go in and say it seems to me like
there's something that's notbeing said Absolutely and just
pause.
Just pause for a minute.
And sometimes you have to beuncomfortable.
Be comfortable with beinguncomfortable in that pause of
not saying anything.
Finally, someone will breakthrough and just say well,
(20:16):
nobody's going to say it, so I'mjust going to go ahead and say
it.
We're just not working togetheras a team, we're working
together as individuals.
We're just not working togetheras a team, we're working
together as individuals.
Okay, we've said it.
Now we can have theconversation, but until until
you acknowledge it, you're justgoing to continue to dance
around the the main problem,right?
Jimena (20:34):
Yeah.
And there will be people whowill never be comfortable with
this kind of questions.
That's another thing.
The agile coach and me for meneeds to be very aware there
will.
There will be allies on yourprocess of transformation and
you will have detractors, andyou have to be very aware of how
(20:58):
to influence those kind ofpeople and who are the ones who
will help you.
And there are also the gooddetractors who will make you see
the dark part of maybe that youare not able to see those I
want in my team.
The rest will like.
I think that times allows thefilter to start filtering the
(21:20):
team, you know, because the teamwill start doing some their own
culture, their own balance, andthose who do not fit into the
team, I think the team will letthem know that they are some
kind of attitudes or behaviorsare not welcome.
Even though, while we reachthis kind of status in a team,
(21:41):
the HR coach still has emotionsregarding this.
In my case, I feel like anguish.
Why is it not happening?
Because even though I try tochange the way I do things or
changing my mental model inorder to meet the team's mental
model or to understand the facewhere they are, it still impacts
(22:04):
me and sometimes it hurts and Ithink it's okay to tell the
team that and it's healthy foryou to say these are things that
are impacting me.
Mark (22:15):
We've talked about some really tough things that an
Agile coach has to do.
Talking about these toughconversations mentioning the
elephant in the room reallyhaving to broach these hard,
maybe deep-rooted conversationsfor the team hard maybe deep
(22:35):
rooted conversations from theteam and I'm feeling kind of
heavy and maybe a little bitdown just from this conversation
, because it is heavy and that'ssomething real that I think we
all feel.
But where do we get our support?
Because we can't stay in thatlow place.
We can't stay I'm giving airquotes in the drama of the team.
We can't have that negativetalk within our minds.
(22:56):
Stay, because otherwise it'sgoing to manifest itself and the
team's going to see that.
Where do we go to get thatsupport so that we lift
ourselves out of these lowpoints?
Jimena (23:10):
Yes, and I really feel that sometimes, even though
you're the best coach, sometimesyou may have these feelings
because we are human and we canunderstand that.
These are emotions, these arefeelings, but sometimes you are
human and you also want thingsto happen and be successful,
(23:34):
also for you, for the team,whatever conversation you're
having.
I mean, maybe you have tochallenge the leadership of the
company.
So it's not a very easy task.
At one point, hey, I kind ofhave this feeling all the time,
all the way.
So how can I help myself tokeep moving and keep my team
moving and keep the leadershipteam moving?
(23:56):
First of all, it's a goodexercise to be coached.
Like therapists they go totherapy For me from time to time
, being coached because I don'tfind which my dilemma is and
where is my carbon status andwhere I want to be when that is
very messy and I don't, andwhere I want to be when that is
very like messy and I don't find.
I try to be coached, or atleast someone who can understand
(24:20):
which my situation is and bringme some clarity on the
questions I have to do to myself, to make to myself.
So that's one thing I generallyfind very calming Seek
mentorship.
You don't have to be.
You don't need to know all thethings in Agile and I don't know
(24:40):
everything.
So please first be honest toyour team that I don't know and
I will learn and be mentoredabout that.
Maybe you need mentoring abouthow to apply these things for
the first time.
You're teaching your team thatlearning is not something bad.
Maybe you need mentoring abouthow to apply these things for
the first time.
You're teaching your team thatlearning is not something bad.
(25:00):
If the first person who ishelping you needs to learn,
that's a very good sign to theteam.
Hey, I don't know that.
Let me see how I can learnabout this.
Or maybe another thing thatalso happened to me is I don't
know.
I know your time is differentfrom mine because I have to
learn, so maybe you have to seekexternal help for that part in
order for the team to keepmoving.
And then I learn and the secondtime, maybe I will be able to
(25:22):
mentor you Be part of agilecommunities.
Many people is in your ownsituation.
Maybe you don't even know thatagile communities are in your
country, your place.
I don't know whatever.
So try to find these agilecommunities.
You will find very nice peoplewho is willing to help you, and
also for free, because we're acommunity.
(25:43):
Sharing knowledge with othersand listening to others'
experience is also kind ofrelieving.
It's like a very calmingexperience knowing that others
can help you and others arehaving the same situation as you
, for example, in Uruguay.
I'm a very supporter of anagile community here the Agile
(26:05):
UE so it's very nice being partof a community.
You learn a lot from others.
For me, those things are threethings that give me that energy
boost whenever I'm in this kindof situation.
Hey, this is the maximum I cansupport.
No, try to get out of thesenegative thinkings.
(26:26):
Be coached.
Try to speak with someone else.
Be part of communities, bementored, because something when
you don't know, this learningthing gets you anguished and
it's because you don't know.
So try to learn that and acceptthat maybe someone has to take
your role at some techniquebecause you don't know
(26:46):
everything, and then start doingthat on your own when you learn
.
And then start doing that onyour own when you learn.
That's not control losing orauthority losing.
Try to be honest to your team.
Hey, this part I'm not veryknowledgeable.
I will bring some other whoknows and I will learn.
Mark (27:02):
So you mentioned communities or the agile
community.
That played a huge part andthat was why I shifted my career
to where I am now, because youdon't find that everywhere.
There are other professionswhere your peers may be looked
upon as adversaries and you'rethere to prove yourself that
(27:24):
you're better than them, but Ifind quite the opposite in the
Agile community, that mostpeople are very humble.
They are willing to share themissteps that they've had.
Ximena, I'll just say I don'tknow how many times I've come
and just said you know, I've hadthis horrible day, I had this
situation and I felt like Iabsolutely flopped, I feel like
(27:47):
I took a step back in my career.
And how many times someone saidyou know, I had the exact same
experience.
And just being able to sharethat and connect with someone
and hear how they overcame orhow they approach that, it's
very helpful and not havesomeone on the other end feel
like, oh, should you go dosomething different.
(28:07):
That's extremely helpful to me.
And you know I won't generalizeand maybe not everybody is like
that, but by and large, a largemajority of the people that
I've interfaced with in theAgile community has been very
welcoming, very uplifting andchallenging as well.
(28:28):
Now I want to reinforce oneother thing that you mentioned,
and that's about being honestwith what you don't know, and
sometimes we have thesepersonalities that, for whatever
reason, we're insecure and wecan come across to be too
apologetic.
Again, there's this balance thatyou have to maintain.
(28:49):
You can be honest, but at somepoint you can, like, start being
too honest and not givingyourself enough credit.
You're beating yourself up andthat really does hurt your
credibility and pretty soonpeople are saying well, gosh
Mark says he doesn't know how todo this.
He doesn't know how to do that.
He screwed this up.
Is there anything he can dothat's worthwhile?
(29:11):
So you have to balance thathonesty, and my dad gave me the
best advice I'd ever heard in mylife.
My dad told me be honest, justdon't be stupid.
Honest.
Jimena (29:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
I really.
I really liked what you saidand that's I mean, for example,
I'm not a very technicalknowledgeable, but I have like
the skill of bringing thoseskills to the team by bringing
the people who knows about that.
And maybe I'm not veryknowledgeable on Git or
(29:45):
something like that, but I'mgood at bringing all the parts
together and get themcommunicating and start talking.
So that's where I think myvalue is.
Mark (29:55):
To mention this again you're not so far down in the
weeds that you can't see the bigpicture.
I think that's part of yourrole is to have that 30,000 foot
view and maybe prompt the teamto say I know we're working hard
, I know we're trying to do, butit seems like we're spending
too much time in this area.
Or if you have data you canbring to show the team and they
(30:19):
may be like oh, you're right,damon Poole is a absolutely
fabulous Agile coach and hetaught a course through IC Agile
and he shared an example thatreally hit the nail on the head
for me with the job of an Agilecoach.
And he was just sitting andobserving a daily scrum and the
(30:40):
team had.
They were using JIRA or usingsome tools and they were going
through the swim lanes one byone, talking about the work that
they were doing, and he sort ofsensed that they were talking
about a lot of things andinstead of just saying that, he
asked the team.
He said can you do me a favorfor just a second?
(31:00):
Can you just take the swimlanes off for me for just a
minute and let's take a look?
And when he did, it wasapparent that how much work was
actually in process by the teams.
And he said he could hear theteams actually audibly gasp and
they were like we didn't evenrealize we were focusing on one
(31:21):
swim lane at a time and itseemed like we weren't working
on much at the same time.
But now that we remove it wesee, yes, absolutely.
So that is an absolutelyperfect picture of what an agile
coach can bring from a team.
You're not so deep into it thatyou can't zoom out a little bit
and see the big picture.
Jimena (31:41):
And making right questions in the right moment is
also a skill that is notachieved by only one coaching
session or coaching course.
That comes with time when tomake those powerful questions
and at which time is the mostadequate.
And maybe you are not a verytechnical person, but bringing
(32:03):
the question that's.
For me it's like a big step.
Mark (32:08):
Totally agree.
Well, ximena, as we're startingto run out of time here, I want
to ask you you and I talkedabout a lot of the challenges
that an Agile coach has to face,and they aren't always easy to
approach those what is the bestpiece of advice that you have
for them as they face theirchallenges on a day-to-day basis
(32:29):
?
Jimena (32:31):
on a day-to-day basis.
First of all, that resilienceand some kind of frustration
needs to be.
They need to be your friends.
Don't see them as enemy.
You cannot be frustrated allthe time.
For that I already gave yousome piece of advice of being
coached be mentored, join someagile community so that you can
(32:54):
learn and that frustration will.
You will see that it will bediminished.
There is something verypowerful that being friend of
this, being comfortable withbeing uncomfortable the time I
wake up if any day, I wake upokay, and I stop choosing being
(33:15):
uncomfortable and I want to gofor the easy path instead of the
right path, I know it's timefor me to reconsider my path.
That's what I'm learning fromall my Agile code journey till
now.
Mark (33:33):
Very well said, Ximena.
So if our listeners want tocontact you, what's the best way
for them to do that?
Jimena (33:41):
Yeah, well, my LinkedIn.
My name is very long there,Mark.
Maybe I will give you mydetails.
And also I have my webpage thatis disruptronicscom, and also I
have my webpage that isdisruptronicscom, and also I can
leave my contact, my email, sowe can have a quick talk there.
We can set up some call.
(34:01):
If someone wants to have somecoaching session with me
regarding this or some mentoringregarding this, I don't have
any problems.
So please feel free to contactme if this is happening to you
and you want some advice from myhumble opinion.
Mark (34:20):
That's great.
We'll put all those links inthe show notes to make it easy
for our listeners out there tocontact you, ximena, thank you
so much for coming on the AgileWithin.
It's been a privilege.
Jimena (34:30):
Thank you, mark, and thanks to you for asking me to
do that absolutely all right,everybody.
Mark (34:36):
It's a wrap.
We'll see everybody next time.
Thanks for joining us foranother episode of the agile
within.
If you haven't already, pleasejoin our linkedin page to stay
in touch.
Just search for the AgileWithin and please spread the
(34:57):
word with your friends andcolleagues Until next time.
This has been your host, markMetz.
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