October 16, 2024 • 33 mins
Discover the transformative power of interculturality with our guest Yamila Solari, co-founder of the software company, Scio, based in Mexico, as she takes us on her incredible journey from Peru to Mexico and the United States. Her experiences paint a vivid picture of how understanding and respecting cultural differences can bridge gaps and enhance collaboration within teams. We promise you'll come away with insights on how language is just one piece of the cultural puzzle, and how historical influences shape the way we work together. Yamila's personal stories illuminate the often-overlooked nuances that can make or break communication and teamwork, even when language barriers aren’t present.
Explore the intersection of cultural dynamics and workplace efficiency as we dive into implementing Scrum across American and German work cultures. We navigate the challenges posed by contrasting communication styles and cultural norms, emphasizing the value of intercultural training and open dialogue to craft inclusive environments. Real-life encounters with multicultural teams illustrate the importance of cultural awareness, as we unpack how understanding diverse perspectives can drive creativity and innovation while averting conflict. By tuning in, you'll gain a deeper appreciation for cultural adaptability and learn how to harness diversity as a key driver of personal and professional growth.
Connect with Yamila on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/yamila-solari/
When in Morelia, Mexico visit Jardín de las Rosas:
https://g.co/kgs/9JzrY3v
"The Culture Map" by Erin Meyer:
https://erinmeyer.com/books/the-culture-map/
Individual Cultural Profile:
https://hbr.org/2014/08/whats-your-cultural-profile
Hofstede´s Country Comparison Tool:
https://www.theculturefactor.com/country-comparison-tool
Follow us on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-agile-within
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Agile Within.
I am your host, mark Metz.
My mission for this podcast isto provide Agile insights into
human values and behaviorsthrough genuine connections.
My guests and I will sharereal-life stories from our Agile
journeys, triumphs, blundersand everything in between, as
(00:29):
well as the lessons that we havelearned.
So get pumped, get rocking.
The Agile Within starts now.
Before we get started, I wantto share some exciting news with
you.
The Agile Online Summit is justaround the corner.
This year's summit, runningfrom October 22nd through the
(00:53):
24th, features thought leaderslike Juergen Apello, known for
revolutionizing the approach toAgile frameworks.
You can expect live sessions,including Juergen's session on
solving wicked, complex problemsin organizations.
Get your free ticket and jointhe discussion at
agileonlinesummitcom.
(01:15):
And now on to the show.
Well, hello everybody.
I hope you're having anabsolutely fantastic day today.
My name is Mark Metz, the hostof the Agile Within.
My guest for today is JamilaSolari.
Jamila, welcome to the AgileWithin.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Hello, mark, great to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So glad to have you.
As is tradition here at theAgile Within, we always start
the podcast off with finding outa little bit about our guest.
And Jamila, you are fromMorelia, Mexico, and if I were
to come to Morelia for a day, Ihad never been there before.
Even though I have been there,what's one thing that you would
say you absolutely couldn't missdoing?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Morelia is such a beautiful place, a colonial
downtown.
However, I thought about this,I was going to say the cathedral
, but I choose the Jardin de lasRosas, which is like the rose
garden, where you cannotactually find a lot of roses,
but the place where it issituated.
The place where it is situated,it has the music conservatory.
(02:25):
In front it has an old churchit's actually Santa Rosa de Lima
, the church and then next to ityou can see the Palacio
Clavijero and the trees andthere are some cafes so you can
sit down.
So it's actually a very niceenvironment and plus, if you go
I guess it's October you will beable to maybe see a little bit
(02:49):
of big movie stars, becausethat's the scenario where the
movie theater where the Moreliafilm festival takes place.
I've never seen anybody, but Ijust love that place of the city
.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Sounds charming.
Jamila is a co-founder of CIO,which is a software company in
Mexico, and she's had severalroles.
Currently she's working as ageneral manager, but also as a
team coach, and our title forour episode today is
Interculturality and BridgingGaps.
(03:30):
I'm very interested to talkabout this.
Explain to me and to ourlisteners what is
interculturality?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Mark, interculturality is the
relationships that exist amongdiverse groups, especially of
different national origins, in aspecific society, and it has a
lot to do with acknowledging,respecting the differences.
(04:00):
That's what we callinterculturality.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
I'm curious to know what fueled your interest in
interculturality, because youand I have had some discussions.
This is something that you'revery passionate about.
What fueled that curiosity?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
is a training that was really important to me
because I had been working withthis topic in my company and
training our teams about thistopic.
But what I found in this lasttraining was information that I
thought was a lot moreapplicable to what we do, and so
that's more recently.
But actually, if we go back, Iam originally from Peru, so I
(04:51):
was born in Lima and when I wasseven, very young, I moved to
Mexico with my parents and Ijust thought that, I mean, I
knew Mexico was a differentcountry, but everybody spoke
Spanish, so for me it was thesame, but it wasn't Mexican
culture and Peruvian culture.
There are several nuances tothe culture that I started
(05:15):
acknowledging when I was younger.
And then it happens that when Iwas a young adult, I move again,
but this time to the States tostudy and work, and that, I
guess, was the move thatilluminated or, I don't know,
enlightened.
That enlightened me about theimportance of cultures in
(05:39):
organizations.
Especially when I was studyingmy graduate degree, I had a lot
of international classmates andwe had to do teamwork.
We had to do a lot of projectsin teams.
You start realizing how we aredifferent and how those
differences don't have to stopus from doing good teamwork when
(06:00):
we talk about interculturality,it doesn't necessarily have a
barrier of language.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
It can, but you mentioned you were from Peru and
then you moved to Mexico.
They both speak Spanish, if I'mcorrect.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
That is right, we both speak Spanish and there are
some different words.
They have different meanings,but they are just like certain
items, so it's not a big deal.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
However, our cultures are not the same.
There are nuances Not aspronounced as you would think
across continents, but here inthe States we have different
cultures.
I live in the southeastern partof the United States and the
culture here is much differentthan the northeastern part of
the country.
The midwestern part isdifferent.
The western part has its ownculture.
So the main point I was wantingto get across is that don't
(06:54):
think that language is the onlycomponent that defines
interculturality.
Would you say that's correct.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, definitely, Language is not.
I mean, language is intertwinedwith culture and that's clear.
But it's not the onlydifference.
National culture has a lot todo with the history of your
country, Because it has to do alot with the history.
Then you can see how differentinfluences in the country can
(07:24):
form a new culture.
In our case, Mexico and Peruwere conquered by the Spanish
people.
However, after colonization,Mexican history and after
independence, specificallyMexican history is very
different than that from Peru'shistory after independence.
(07:46):
So, for example, in the capitalcity of Lima, you had a big
European influence.
However, because we did nothave a civil war, the provinces
are far away and they are not asintegrated as they are in
Mexico.
So, all these things right, butI don't want to get into that
(08:07):
because I don't know much aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Well, I do want to ask you what was your defining
moment when you decided thatinterculturality was important
for you?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah, I guess it was when I was working in teams in
my graduate studies.
There were some conflicts andit was not always possible to
say, oh, that's because thatperson has this personality.
You could see some patterns and, being no expert, you just
(08:40):
generalize and say, oh then,people from this country, they
are all like this and that iswhy.
But then you learn that that isnot true.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
So along those lines, I've heard people in the past.
They've talked about differentareas of the world and when it
comes to trying to engage withworking with certain people,
I've heard people say, oh, youdon't want to work with the
people in this region or thisarea of the world.
They have a I'm giving airquotes.
I'm famous for doing that.
I'm giving air quotes a badculture.
(09:13):
Their culture is bad.
They're difficult to work with.
What would you say to peoplethat make those statements?
Shamila?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
I would say they may be angry, because the first
thing you learn when you areexposed to interculturality and
the topics around it is thatthere are not good or bad
cultures.
Every culture has strengths.
I do accept, and I think a lotof people can agree with me,
(09:44):
that certain characteristics ofcultures are more compatible
with certain methodologies orwork methodologies.
So if you are used to workingin a methodology, you really
believe in that methodology,then cultures that are difficult
to adapt to this methodologywill be bad for you.
But I think we have to reframeof using bad and good, because
(10:11):
really all cultures havestrengths.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
One of the ideas you often find in the agile world is
to assume positive intent frompeople, and I think the same can
be said for cultures.
Assume that the intent of theculture is positive, don't
assume that it's bad.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
That is true and that is exactly the intent that you
need to have when you areexploring your national culture
in a team or in a team session.
Your national culture in a teamor in a team session.
You need to have this beliefthat all of the cultures have
strengths and you look at themwith positive intent.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
So I heard you say that some cultures better relate
to other cultures.
So how can we understand whichcultures maybe work better with
others?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yes, so the most famous one is Geert Hofstede's
Six Intercultural Dimensions,and I've seen a lot of people
use those to get an idea of acountry profile culturally.
However, I think it was like 10years ago Erin Mayer wrote a
(11:27):
book that is called the CulturalMap and I find that the main
dimensions, which she callsscales, that she uses are more
suited to work in organizations.
So Hofstede's dimensions aremore like general.
I mean there are a couple orthree of them that overlap with
(11:49):
Mayer's scales, but in general,I would say Mayer's scales give
you a clear idea of where thecountry as a group of people is
in each of those scales, whichdoes not mean that if you find a
person from that nationality,that person is going to have all
(12:14):
those scales in the same place,because every person has a
range between the scale, betweenthe point where the person is
scale within the point where theperson is, where you are
usually located, or maybe yourscale is completely different
than that from your country,which also happens.
So I'm just saying it's a wordof caution not to use these
(12:39):
scales or not to use anycultural tool to profile a
person.
You cannot tool to profile aperson, you cannot, but we can
use them to explore and reflect,and ask people to reflect about
their culture, and especiallyin teamwork.
This is very powerful.
So, just to mention thembriefly, the eight dimensions
(13:01):
cover communicating, evaluating,persuading, leading, deciding,
trusting, disagreeing andscheduling, and I'm going to
give you an example of twocultures that would seem to, and
let's go ahead and apply thatexample to how culture can be
more compatible with a workmethodology.
(13:33):
Why don't we think about Scrum?
We work with Scrum at mycompany and actually, because I
saw this difference when Ivisited Germany a few months ago
, I researched about this.
So, if you think of America,something that would help
American people work with Scrumwill be that their communication
(13:55):
is low context.
That means that you're verydirect.
Direct, you are applicationfirst, which means that you
first give the conclusion or thesummary, and then you go to the
principles.
You have an egalitarian society, which is great for Scrum, and
(14:18):
then you are lessconfrontational, which means you
can.
You're actually in the middle,america's in the middle, so you
can actually handle conflict,but you don't have to be very
confrontational.
(14:45):
However, if you go to Germany,it has some dimensions that will
help Scrum, which also is likebeing low context in
communication, but then it hassome others that make it
difficult to work in a scrum.
They give negative feedbackdirectly, and that is not always
good for scrum because we trynot to blame people.
(15:05):
Consensual could help Scrum,but it's more confrontational as
well, so you can spend hoursand hours discussing about a
topic, and that won't help Scrum.
There are some dimensions thatMeyer does not use but Hofstede
(15:27):
does, and one very important onethat describes Germanist
culture in general is they arevery risk adverse, so they will
do everything, they will planeverything meticulously so that
they would not face any risk,and that is the cultural
(15:47):
characteristics that most hinderthe adoption of a scrum in
Germany.
There.
That's an example of how anAmerican culture will be more
compatible with a scrum thanGermanist culture, which, by the
way, germany could be a lotmore compatible for waterfall
(16:08):
methodology, right, but not forthis one, and that is to say,
germany is not a bad culture,it's just not very compatible
with Scrum.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
I'm thinking of a scenario, let's just say, a
software company and we have ateam and they have an opening on
that team and they'reinterviewing people.
And guess what?
One of the people that they'reinterviewing on the team is
someone who recently moved fromGermany into their country.
Help us navigate.
How do you use those scales tounderstand?
(16:42):
Because, quite frankly, somepeople aren't comfortable with
direct feedback and they may shyaway to say, oh well, this
person is from Germany and Iknew someone from Germany before
and they were extremely directand it made me very
uncomfortable.
I don't know that I could workwith this person that we're
(17:02):
going to and I've never met them, but I just know because of my
past experience of working withsomebody.
I don't want to get into thatagain.
Help us navigate.
How do you use these scales?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
appropriately our people in an organization that
these topics of culturaldifferences have been studied
and we know how to apply themand we know what to use them for
, the better we're going to beable to solve this issue, for
(17:37):
example.
So what I would do is thehiring manager hopefully has had
an interculturality training,so hopefully he's aware of these
cultural differences, but alsohopefully he has been able to
have team coaching where peopletalk openly about these
(17:58):
differences, and they are peoplethat are the ones who say, hey,
I may be German, but I don'tfind myself in the scale as
being very confrontational, I'mmore like here.
Why?
Because I've had experiencesworking with other people, and
then some other people may say,ok, in this scale, yes, I am
(18:21):
from China, but guess what?
I?
I've been working in Sweden forso many years, so for me,
egalitarian teams are the best.
So when you talk about thosethings, you are more able to say
here is where we are at.
These are the workingagreements we're going to create
based on these issues, right.
(18:42):
So you may need a workingagreement about confrontation
and conflict.
In other teams you may not needone right, but in this one you
will pay attention to this.
So I just find that the moreyou talk about these things, the
more you educate yourorganization, the easier it is
not to fall in the trap ofgeneralizing.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I think it's a great opportunity to increase the
diversity in the team.
You can be exposed togroupthink where everybody just
kind of thinks the same andnobody gets challenged.
So if I'm looking at thatsituation, I'm thinking, well,
if I've got a very quiet team,everybody's very polite, no one
will ask the hard questions thismight be a great addition to
(19:26):
the team because we mightactually have somebody who will
address the elephant in the roomwhen nobody else speaks up and
who knows that might inspireothers to speak up as well.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Definitely, and this is why we need to talk about
this, because we want diverseteams, we want teams to be
creative and for that we needdiversity.
But if we are scared becausewe've, in the past, have worked
with someone and that experiencewas not good because that
person was from this country,and then we will be just closing
(19:59):
ourselves to new experiences,yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
You mentioned, one of the scales was disagreeing or
disagreement, yes.
What are some signs that youwould see that culture would
play a part in disagreements?
From a conflict perspective andlet me just be direct is
(20:23):
unhealthy conflict, because notall conflict is bad, just a team
needs a certain amount ofconflict, or else, like we just
mentioned, you're not raisingthose important issues up.
But what are some signs thatyou see where culture plays a
part?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I think that when a team is trying to work through
conflict which is always hardand they get stuck and then
maybe you have the help of yourscrum master or a team coach and
they continue to feel stuckright, you can look at their
faces and their feelings therethat are not being managed well.
(21:04):
I think you always have to goback to people's backgrounds and
histories.
I really like my team coachingsessions.
I give a lot of importance tofeelings.
Some people don't like itbecause we are at the workplace,
but I find that they are a lotmore powerful if we can name our
(21:27):
feelings, not only name ourthoughts, and if we can name our
needs right.
So the moment you start talkingabout needs and feelings, I
would say that culture isinvolved, because culture has to
do with your set of beliefsright Nowadays, when I find a
(21:51):
difficult conflict and I'mhelping a team, I always go back
to asking myself what role isculture playing in this, and
especially if we're talkingabout different national
cultures?
So I would give you an example.
Some years ago we had a teamthat was working pretty well.
(22:15):
It was like one Spanish guy andthree Mexican guys and they
were all developers.
But then during team sessions,I realized that there was this
alienation.
So the three Mexican guys felta little alienated by the
Spanish guy and maybe theSpanish guy didn't realize it.
(22:38):
But we started exploring it andwhat came up was that the
Spanish guy was very he was.
I don't know what he was, butthe Mexican guys were perceiving
the Spanish person'sinteractions when facing
conflict as very confrontational, like rude and violent.
(23:03):
So that's a lot to say.
But then we went back togetherand we saw the scale of
disagreeing that Major talksabout and we saw that Spain is
in the extreme opposite ofMexico.
Spain is very confrontational,everybody is like that.
It's not taken as violent orrude.
(23:25):
But Mexico is in the oppositeextreme, where you actually
avoid confrontation.
We talk about this and we workabout this and it actually helps
.
So that's an example of whereeducating yourself can help you
with conflict.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
That's great.
So that takes it away from thepersonal level.
Right, right, personal attackon you.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Exactly, exactly, because, even though my Mexican
co-workers were convinced thatit was a personal issue, they
opened their minds to say, okay,hold on, this has been studied.
It may not be personal we needto have space for doubt and then
(24:11):
you start talking about that.
And, of course, you have to getto agreements because, even
though the other person is fromSpain and these guys are from
Mexico, they have to meet in themiddle, or maybe not in the
middle, maybe a little more tothe confrontation, but just
because they think it's going tohelp the team work better.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
That's a great story.
I've got a story to tell also.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yes, tell me, tell me Mark.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
So earlier in my career, when I was a software
developer, I worked on a teamwhere, even though I was here
locally in the States, most ofthe other developers were from
India.
Though I was here locally inthe States, most of the other
developers were from India andwe were working on a project
together.
The group that I was with theywere all Indian males and they
(24:57):
were very passionate, very vocallike loud vocal, like.
I'm taking over thisconversation.
If you can, I would just kindof slink back, because that
wasn't my background, comingfrom the southeastern part of
the United States very much more.
You know, let's have goodmanners, let's be respectful.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
And one of the developers that was a little
more advanced in his career tookme aside and said you know,
mark, I noticed you don't talk alot during the meetings.
Why is that?
And I just shared that I didn'tfeel comfortable because the
other developers were sooutspoken, so passionate, so
sure of themselves.
I didn't have anything to add.
(25:39):
He convinced me.
He said just understand theculture of where I came from, so
where we come from the area ofIndia.
That's how we were brought up.
Our fathers taught us to bevery demanding, to push.
That's how we grew up andthat's how we knew.
So understand that and maybedon't just slink back.
(26:05):
Speak up for yourself.
So I started doing that and youknow what Little successes
start leading to biggersuccesses.
And that really taught me alesson to speak up for myself
without being rude, withoutdominating a conversation that I
don't think I would havelearned otherwise.
(26:25):
So I see that as a veryformative part of my career,
where I was young and growing up, to stand up for myself and
speak for myself and not justsit in the background.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yes, great story.
I like it and I can definitelyimagine you in that table with a
lot of Indian males.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Do you have any other examples you can share with our
listeners about your sexuality?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
You know, I have an example that I keep warmly close
to my heart because it happenedwhen we were just starting the
company 20 years ago, and youknow, we've had people from
several parts of the world herein Mexico working with us, and
this was a brilliant Frenchengineer and he was working the
(27:15):
time to give them feedback andhelp them grow.
However, once I guess we sawsomeone coming out of a meeting
(27:39):
crying, and the meeting was withthis yeah, so the Mexican
person was crying Like literally, like, literally, yes, yes.
Mexican person was crying andthe French Like literally, like
literally, yes, yes, yes, shewas crying and anyway.
So we didn't have all thisstructure to work with teams and
we didn't have this knowledge.
(28:00):
But we found out that what washappening was that this French
engineer was being very, verydirect with his feedback and all
of the feedback was negative.
And so I'm sure that for youthat was raised in America this
is like appalling, because inAmerica and I studied there and
(28:24):
I know that you give a lot ofgood, positive feedback and you
encourage children, but if yougo and see French culture,
that's not the way it works.
Kids receive negative feedbackall the time, all while they are
growing up.
Very little positive feedback,it's just negative feedback, and
(28:44):
that's the way they understand.
So when they get to college orthe workplace, that's what they
expect.
But for us in Mexico, that'snot the norm.
We expect feedback, but if itis negative, we would like you
to start with the positive andthen finish with the positive
(29:06):
note, a little more like whathappens in the States, and so,
anyway, so we didn't have any.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
It's funny you say that because we even change our
language, because many times wedon't say negative, right, we'll
say like what are thechallenges you're experiencing?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
What areas do you want to improve in right?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Opportunity areas, of course Opportunity.
So imagine if someone justtells you everything directly
and only the negative, Wellanyway.
So I said this, I remember thisfondly because as a young
organization we tried to manageit the way we could and I think
(29:49):
we did a good job.
But, you know, cultures werenever talked about, and never in
this context of, hey, peoplehave studied this and you know,
let's talk about it Anyway.
But I just have a lot ofaffection for these people that
were involved in these teams.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
How did the story end with this Frenchman?
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Well it ends.
This Frenchman got to have ahigh position in our company.
He learned to modulate hisintensity and we as managers
have conversations with him, andalso the people, the Mexican
team.
(30:35):
They always knew his were good,positive intent.
I mean his was a positiveintent.
That doesn't mean that ithasn't hurt you, but we all knew
that.
So the last years he was in thecompany we all love him.
We all love him.
We just knew he was very directbut everybody loved him.
(30:55):
So there was modulation on bothsides, there was adaptation on
both sides.
It didn't happen on a teamsession, we didn't know about
those things, but it happenedlittle by little.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yes, we didn't know about those things, but it
happened little by little.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yes, so both sides learned something and changed
their outlook, I would say, iswhat I'm hearing.
Yeah, we just didn't have thetheory behind it, as in oh, that
is evaluating the scale measuretalks about and French are very
direct to give feedback about,and French are very direct to
give feedback.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
So, as we start wrapping up here, why is
interculturality?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
important, and why should we care about it?
Well, mark, I thinkinterculturality is important
because it has to do with ourbelief system, and our belief
system affects everything,especially the work we do.
If we are not open to exploreour belief system, especially in
regards of our national culture, then we're closing a door of
(32:03):
learning more about ourselvesand of applying that knowledge
to the work we do togetherBeautifully said.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
All right, jamila.
If our listeners out there wantto get in touch with you,
what's the best way for them todo that?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Oh everybody, they can just send me a message on
LinkedIn.
I usually reply easy, I meanfast.
And it's been a delightful markto talk to you and thank you
for your questions.
They made me reflect.
I hope I explained myself well.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Oh, this was absolutely.
This is great.
I hope our listeners enjoy thisas much as I have.
I'll be sure and put a link toyour profile in the show notes
so people get to you easy andreach out to Jamila if you have
any questions aboutinterculturality or anything
else.
In general, she's a great teamcoach.
(32:52):
I've worked with Jamila beforeand I can say that she's
absolutely fantastic.
So, jamila, thank you so muchfor coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Thank you, Mark.
Thank you and keep up the goodwork with this podcast that I'm
sure is helping a lot of teamcoaches.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Appreciate that Awesome.
All right, everybody.
That brings an end to anotherepisode of the Agile Within.
We'll see everybody next time.
Thanks for joining us foranother episode of the Agile
Within.
If you haven't already, pleasejoin our LinkedIn page to stay
in touch.
(33:27):
Just search for the AgileWithin and please spread the
word with your friends andcolleagues Until next time.
This has been your host, markMetz.
Welcome to the Agile Within.
I am your host, mark Metz.
My mission for this podcast isto provide Agile insights into
human values and behaviorsthrough genuine connections.
My guests and I will sharereal-life stories from our Agile
journeys, triumphs, blundersand everything in between, as
(00:29):
well as the lessons that we havelearned.
So get pumped, get rocking.
The Agile Within starts now.
Before we get started, I wantto share some exciting news with
you.
The Agile Online Summit is justaround the corner.
This year's summit, runningfrom October 22nd through the
(00:53):
24th, features thought leaderslike Juergen Apello, known for
revolutionizing the approach toAgile frameworks.
You can expect live sessions,including Juergen's session on
solving wicked, complex problemsin organizations.
Get your free ticket and jointhe discussion at
agileonlinesummitcom.
(01:15):
And now on to the show.
Well, hello everybody.
I hope you're having anabsolutely fantastic day today.
My name is Mark Metz, the hostof the Agile Within.
My guest for today is JamilaSolari.
Jamila, welcome to the AgileWithin.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Hello, mark, great to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So glad to have you.
As is tradition here at theAgile Within, we always start
the podcast off with finding outa little bit about our guest.
And Jamila, you are fromMorelia, Mexico, and if I were
to come to Morelia for a day, Ihad never been there before.
Even though I have been there,what's one thing that you would
say you absolutely couldn't missdoing?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Morelia is such a beautiful place, a colonial
downtown.
However, I thought about this,I was going to say the cathedral
, but I choose the Jardin de lasRosas, which is like the rose
garden, where you cannotactually find a lot of roses,
but the place where it issituated.
The place where it is situated,it has the music conservatory.
(02:25):
In front it has an old churchit's actually Santa Rosa de Lima
, the church and then next to ityou can see the Palacio
Clavijero and the trees andthere are some cafes so you can
sit down.
So it's actually a very niceenvironment and plus, if you go
I guess it's October you will beable to maybe see a little bit
(02:49):
of big movie stars, becausethat's the scenario where the
movie theater where the Moreliafilm festival takes place.
I've never seen anybody, but Ijust love that place of the city
.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Sounds charming.
Jamila is a co-founder of CIO,which is a software company in
Mexico, and she's had severalroles.
Currently she's working as ageneral manager, but also as a
team coach, and our title forour episode today is
Interculturality and BridgingGaps.
(03:30):
I'm very interested to talkabout this.
Explain to me and to ourlisteners what is
interculturality?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Mark, interculturality is the
relationships that exist amongdiverse groups, especially of
different national origins, in aspecific society, and it has a
lot to do with acknowledging,respecting the differences.
(04:00):
That's what we callinterculturality.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
I'm curious to know what fueled your interest in
interculturality, because youand I have had some discussions.
This is something that you'revery passionate about.
What fueled that curiosity?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
is a training that was really important to me
because I had been working withthis topic in my company and
training our teams about thistopic.
But what I found in this lasttraining was information that I
thought was a lot moreapplicable to what we do, and so
that's more recently.
But actually, if we go back, Iam originally from Peru, so I
(04:51):
was born in Lima and when I wasseven, very young, I moved to
Mexico with my parents and Ijust thought that, I mean, I
knew Mexico was a differentcountry, but everybody spoke
Spanish, so for me it was thesame, but it wasn't Mexican
culture and Peruvian culture.
There are several nuances tothe culture that I started
(05:15):
acknowledging when I was younger.
And then it happens that when Iwas a young adult, I move again,
but this time to the States tostudy and work, and that, I
guess, was the move thatilluminated or, I don't know,
enlightened.
That enlightened me about theimportance of cultures in
(05:39):
organizations.
Especially when I was studyingmy graduate degree, I had a lot
of international classmates andwe had to do teamwork.
We had to do a lot of projectsin teams.
You start realizing how we aredifferent and how those
differences don't have to stopus from doing good teamwork when
(06:00):
we talk about interculturality,it doesn't necessarily have a
barrier of language.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
It can, but you mentioned you were from Peru and
then you moved to Mexico.
They both speak Spanish, if I'mcorrect.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
That is right, we both speak Spanish and there are
some different words.
They have different meanings,but they are just like certain
items, so it's not a big deal.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
However, our cultures are not the same.
There are nuances Not aspronounced as you would think
across continents, but here inthe States we have different
cultures.
I live in the southeastern partof the United States and the
culture here is much differentthan the northeastern part of
the country.
The midwestern part isdifferent.
The western part has its ownculture.
So the main point I was wantingto get across is that don't
(06:54):
think that language is the onlycomponent that defines
interculturality.
Would you say that's correct.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, definitely, Language is not.
I mean, language is intertwinedwith culture and that's clear.
But it's not the onlydifference.
National culture has a lot todo with the history of your
country, Because it has to do alot with the history.
Then you can see how differentinfluences in the country can
(07:24):
form a new culture.
In our case, Mexico and Peruwere conquered by the Spanish
people.
However, after colonization,Mexican history and after
independence, specificallyMexican history is very
different than that from Peru'shistory after independence.
(07:46):
So, for example, in the capitalcity of Lima, you had a big
European influence.
However, because we did nothave a civil war, the provinces
are far away and they are not asintegrated as they are in
Mexico.
So, all these things right, butI don't want to get into that
(08:07):
because I don't know much aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Well, I do want to ask you what was your defining
moment when you decided thatinterculturality was important
for you?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah, I guess it was when I was working in teams in
my graduate studies.
There were some conflicts andit was not always possible to
say, oh, that's because thatperson has this personality.
You could see some patterns and, being no expert, you just
(08:40):
generalize and say, oh then,people from this country, they
are all like this and that iswhy.
But then you learn that that isnot true.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
So along those lines, I've heard people in the past.
They've talked about differentareas of the world and when it
comes to trying to engage withworking with certain people,
I've heard people say, oh, youdon't want to work with the
people in this region or thisarea of the world.
They have a I'm giving airquotes.
I'm famous for doing that.
I'm giving air quotes a badculture.
(09:13):
Their culture is bad.
They're difficult to work with.
What would you say to peoplethat make those statements?
Shamila?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
I would say they may be angry, because the first
thing you learn when you areexposed to interculturality and
the topics around it is thatthere are not good or bad
cultures.
Every culture has strengths.
I do accept, and I think a lotof people can agree with me,
(09:44):
that certain characteristics ofcultures are more compatible
with certain methodologies orwork methodologies.
So if you are used to workingin a methodology, you really
believe in that methodology,then cultures that are difficult
to adapt to this methodologywill be bad for you.
But I think we have to reframeof using bad and good, because
(10:11):
really all cultures havestrengths.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
One of the ideas you often find in the agile world is
to assume positive intent frompeople, and I think the same can
be said for cultures.
Assume that the intent of theculture is positive, don't
assume that it's bad.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
That is true and that is exactly the intent that you
need to have when you areexploring your national culture
in a team or in a team session.
Your national culture in a teamor in a team session.
You need to have this beliefthat all of the cultures have
strengths and you look at themwith positive intent.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
So I heard you say that some cultures better relate
to other cultures.
So how can we understand whichcultures maybe work better with
others?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yes, so the most famous one is Geert Hofstede's
Six Intercultural Dimensions,and I've seen a lot of people
use those to get an idea of acountry profile culturally.
However, I think it was like 10years ago Erin Mayer wrote a
(11:27):
book that is called the CulturalMap and I find that the main
dimensions, which she callsscales, that she uses are more
suited to work in organizations.
So Hofstede's dimensions aremore like general.
I mean there are a couple orthree of them that overlap with
(11:49):
Mayer's scales, but in general,I would say Mayer's scales give
you a clear idea of where thecountry as a group of people is
in each of those scales, whichdoes not mean that if you find a
person from that nationality,that person is going to have all
(12:14):
those scales in the same place,because every person has a
range between the scale, betweenthe point where the person is
scale within the point where theperson is, where you are
usually located, or maybe yourscale is completely different
than that from your country,which also happens.
So I'm just saying it's a wordof caution not to use these
(12:39):
scales or not to use anycultural tool to profile a
person.
You cannot tool to profile aperson, you cannot, but we can
use them to explore and reflect,and ask people to reflect about
their culture, and especiallyin teamwork.
This is very powerful.
So, just to mention thembriefly, the eight dimensions
(13:01):
cover communicating, evaluating,persuading, leading, deciding,
trusting, disagreeing andscheduling, and I'm going to
give you an example of twocultures that would seem to, and
let's go ahead and apply thatexample to how culture can be
more compatible with a workmethodology.
(13:33):
Why don't we think about Scrum?
We work with Scrum at mycompany and actually, because I
saw this difference when Ivisited Germany a few months ago
, I researched about this.
So, if you think of America,something that would help
American people work with Scrumwill be that their communication
(13:55):
is low context.
That means that you're verydirect.
Direct, you are applicationfirst, which means that you
first give the conclusion or thesummary, and then you go to the
principles.
You have an egalitarian society, which is great for Scrum, and
(14:18):
then you are lessconfrontational, which means you
can.
You're actually in the middle,america's in the middle, so you
can actually handle conflict,but you don't have to be very
confrontational.
(14:45):
However, if you go to Germany,it has some dimensions that will
help Scrum, which also is likebeing low context in
communication, but then it hassome others that make it
difficult to work in a scrum.
They give negative feedbackdirectly, and that is not always
good for scrum because we trynot to blame people.
(15:05):
Consensual could help Scrum,but it's more confrontational as
well, so you can spend hoursand hours discussing about a
topic, and that won't help Scrum.
There are some dimensions thatMeyer does not use but Hofstede
(15:27):
does, and one very important onethat describes Germanist
culture in general is they arevery risk adverse, so they will
do everything, they will planeverything meticulously so that
they would not face any risk,and that is the cultural
(15:47):
characteristics that most hinderthe adoption of a scrum in
Germany.
There.
That's an example of how anAmerican culture will be more
compatible with a scrum thanGermanist culture, which, by the
way, germany could be a lotmore compatible for waterfall
(16:08):
methodology, right, but not forthis one, and that is to say,
germany is not a bad culture,it's just not very compatible
with Scrum.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
I'm thinking of a scenario, let's just say, a
software company and we have ateam and they have an opening on
that team and they'reinterviewing people.
And guess what?
One of the people that they'reinterviewing on the team is
someone who recently moved fromGermany into their country.
Help us navigate.
How do you use those scales tounderstand?
(16:42):
Because, quite frankly, somepeople aren't comfortable with
direct feedback and they may shyaway to say, oh well, this
person is from Germany and Iknew someone from Germany before
and they were extremely directand it made me very
uncomfortable.
I don't know that I could workwith this person that we're
(17:02):
going to and I've never met them, but I just know because of my
past experience of working withsomebody.
I don't want to get into thatagain.
Help us navigate.
How do you use these scales?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
appropriately our people in an organization that
these topics of culturaldifferences have been studied
and we know how to apply themand we know what to use them for
, the better we're going to beable to solve this issue, for
(17:37):
example.
So what I would do is thehiring manager hopefully has had
an interculturality training,so hopefully he's aware of these
cultural differences, but alsohopefully he has been able to
have team coaching where peopletalk openly about these
(17:58):
differences, and they are peoplethat are the ones who say, hey,
I may be German, but I don'tfind myself in the scale as
being very confrontational, I'mmore like here.
Why?
Because I've had experiencesworking with other people, and
then some other people may say,ok, in this scale, yes, I am
(18:21):
from China, but guess what?
I?
I've been working in Sweden forso many years, so for me,
egalitarian teams are the best.
So when you talk about thosethings, you are more able to say
here is where we are at.
These are the workingagreements we're going to create
based on these issues, right.
(18:42):
So you may need a workingagreement about confrontation
and conflict.
In other teams you may not needone right, but in this one you
will pay attention to this.
So I just find that the moreyou talk about these things, the
more you educate yourorganization, the easier it is
not to fall in the trap ofgeneralizing.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I think it's a great opportunity to increase the
diversity in the team.
You can be exposed togroupthink where everybody just
kind of thinks the same andnobody gets challenged.
So if I'm looking at thatsituation, I'm thinking, well,
if I've got a very quiet team,everybody's very polite, no one
will ask the hard questions thismight be a great addition to
(19:26):
the team because we mightactually have somebody who will
address the elephant in the roomwhen nobody else speaks up and
who knows that might inspireothers to speak up as well.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Definitely, and this is why we need to talk about
this, because we want diverseteams, we want teams to be
creative and for that we needdiversity.
But if we are scared becausewe've, in the past, have worked
with someone and that experiencewas not good because that
person was from this country,and then we will be just closing
(19:59):
ourselves to new experiences,yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
You mentioned, one of the scales was disagreeing or
disagreement, yes.
What are some signs that youwould see that culture would
play a part in disagreements?
From a conflict perspective andlet me just be direct is
(20:23):
unhealthy conflict, because notall conflict is bad, just a team
needs a certain amount ofconflict, or else, like we just
mentioned, you're not raisingthose important issues up.
But what are some signs thatyou see where culture plays a
part?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I think that when a team is trying to work through
conflict which is always hardand they get stuck and then
maybe you have the help of yourscrum master or a team coach and
they continue to feel stuckright, you can look at their
faces and their feelings therethat are not being managed well.
(21:04):
I think you always have to goback to people's backgrounds and
histories.
I really like my team coachingsessions.
I give a lot of importance tofeelings.
Some people don't like itbecause we are at the workplace,
but I find that they are a lotmore powerful if we can name our
(21:27):
feelings, not only name ourthoughts, and if we can name our
needs right.
So the moment you start talkingabout needs and feelings, I
would say that culture isinvolved, because culture has to
do with your set of beliefsright Nowadays, when I find a
(21:51):
difficult conflict and I'mhelping a team, I always go back
to asking myself what role isculture playing in this, and
especially if we're talkingabout different national
cultures?
So I would give you an example.
Some years ago we had a teamthat was working pretty well.
(22:15):
It was like one Spanish guy andthree Mexican guys and they
were all developers.
But then during team sessions,I realized that there was this
alienation.
So the three Mexican guys felta little alienated by the
Spanish guy and maybe theSpanish guy didn't realize it.
(22:38):
But we started exploring it andwhat came up was that the
Spanish guy was very he was.
I don't know what he was, butthe Mexican guys were perceiving
the Spanish person'sinteractions when facing
conflict as very confrontational, like rude and violent.
(23:03):
So that's a lot to say.
But then we went back togetherand we saw the scale of
disagreeing that Major talksabout and we saw that Spain is
in the extreme opposite ofMexico.
Spain is very confrontational,everybody is like that.
It's not taken as violent orrude.
(23:25):
But Mexico is in the oppositeextreme, where you actually
avoid confrontation.
We talk about this and we workabout this and it actually helps
.
So that's an example of whereeducating yourself can help you
with conflict.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
That's great.
So that takes it away from thepersonal level.
Right, right, personal attackon you.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Exactly, exactly, because, even though my Mexican
co-workers were convinced thatit was a personal issue, they
opened their minds to say, okay,hold on, this has been studied.
It may not be personal we needto have space for doubt and then
(24:11):
you start talking about that.
And, of course, you have to getto agreements because, even
though the other person is fromSpain and these guys are from
Mexico, they have to meet in themiddle, or maybe not in the
middle, maybe a little more tothe confrontation, but just
because they think it's going tohelp the team work better.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
That's a great story.
I've got a story to tell also.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yes, tell me, tell me Mark.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
So earlier in my career, when I was a software
developer, I worked on a teamwhere, even though I was here
locally in the States, most ofthe other developers were from
India.
Though I was here locally inthe States, most of the other
developers were from India andwe were working on a project
together.
The group that I was with theywere all Indian males and they
(24:57):
were very passionate, very vocallike loud vocal, like.
I'm taking over thisconversation.
If you can, I would just kindof slink back, because that
wasn't my background, comingfrom the southeastern part of
the United States very much more.
You know, let's have goodmanners, let's be respectful.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
And one of the developers that was a little
more advanced in his career tookme aside and said you know,
mark, I noticed you don't talk alot during the meetings.
Why is that?
And I just shared that I didn'tfeel comfortable because the
other developers were sooutspoken, so passionate, so
sure of themselves.
I didn't have anything to add.
(25:39):
He convinced me.
He said just understand theculture of where I came from, so
where we come from the area ofIndia.
That's how we were brought up.
Our fathers taught us to bevery demanding, to push.
That's how we grew up andthat's how we knew.
So understand that and maybedon't just slink back.
(26:05):
Speak up for yourself.
So I started doing that and youknow what Little successes
start leading to biggersuccesses.
And that really taught me alesson to speak up for myself
without being rude, withoutdominating a conversation that I
don't think I would havelearned otherwise.
(26:25):
So I see that as a veryformative part of my career,
where I was young and growing up, to stand up for myself and
speak for myself and not justsit in the background.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yes, great story.
I like it and I can definitelyimagine you in that table with a
lot of Indian males.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Do you have any other examples you can share with our
listeners about your sexuality?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
You know, I have an example that I keep warmly close
to my heart because it happenedwhen we were just starting the
company 20 years ago, and youknow, we've had people from
several parts of the world herein Mexico working with us, and
this was a brilliant Frenchengineer and he was working the
(27:15):
time to give them feedback andhelp them grow.
However, once I guess we sawsomeone coming out of a meeting
(27:39):
crying, and the meeting was withthis yeah, so the Mexican
person was crying Like literally, like, literally, yes, yes.
Mexican person was crying andthe French Like literally, like
literally, yes, yes, yes, shewas crying and anyway.
So we didn't have all thisstructure to work with teams and
we didn't have this knowledge.
(28:00):
But we found out that what washappening was that this French
engineer was being very, verydirect with his feedback and all
of the feedback was negative.
And so I'm sure that for youthat was raised in America this
is like appalling, because inAmerica and I studied there and
(28:24):
I know that you give a lot ofgood, positive feedback and you
encourage children, but if yougo and see French culture,
that's not the way it works.
Kids receive negative feedbackall the time, all while they are
growing up.
Very little positive feedback,it's just negative feedback, and
(28:44):
that's the way they understand.
So when they get to college orthe workplace, that's what they
expect.
But for us in Mexico, that'snot the norm.
We expect feedback, but if itis negative, we would like you
to start with the positive andthen finish with the positive
(29:06):
note, a little more like whathappens in the States, and so,
anyway, so we didn't have any.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
It's funny you say that because we even change our
language, because many times wedon't say negative, right, we'll
say like what are thechallenges you're experiencing?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
What areas do you want to improve in right?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Opportunity areas, of course Opportunity.
So imagine if someone justtells you everything directly
and only the negative, Wellanyway.
So I said this, I remember thisfondly because as a young
organization we tried to manageit the way we could and I think
(29:49):
we did a good job.
But, you know, cultures werenever talked about, and never in
this context of, hey, peoplehave studied this and you know,
let's talk about it Anyway.
But I just have a lot ofaffection for these people that
were involved in these teams.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
How did the story end with this Frenchman?
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Well it ends.
This Frenchman got to have ahigh position in our company.
He learned to modulate hisintensity and we as managers
have conversations with him, andalso the people, the Mexican
team.
(30:35):
They always knew his were good,positive intent.
I mean his was a positiveintent.
That doesn't mean that ithasn't hurt you, but we all knew
that.
So the last years he was in thecompany we all love him.
We all love him.
We just knew he was very directbut everybody loved him.
(30:55):
So there was modulation on bothsides, there was adaptation on
both sides.
It didn't happen on a teamsession, we didn't know about
those things, but it happenedlittle by little.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yes, we didn't know about those things, but it
happened little by little.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yes, so both sides learned something and changed
their outlook, I would say, iswhat I'm hearing.
Yeah, we just didn't have thetheory behind it, as in oh, that
is evaluating the scale measuretalks about and French are very
direct to give feedback about,and French are very direct to
give feedback.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
So, as we start wrapping up here, why is
interculturality?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
important, and why should we care about it?
Well, mark, I thinkinterculturality is important
because it has to do with ourbelief system, and our belief
system affects everything,especially the work we do.
If we are not open to exploreour belief system, especially in
regards of our national culture, then we're closing a door of
(32:03):
learning more about ourselvesand of applying that knowledge
to the work we do togetherBeautifully said.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
All right, jamila.
If our listeners out there wantto get in touch with you,
what's the best way for them todo that?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Oh everybody, they can just send me a message on
LinkedIn.
I usually reply easy, I meanfast.
And it's been a delightful markto talk to you and thank you
for your questions.
They made me reflect.
I hope I explained myself well.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Oh, this was absolutely.
This is great.
I hope our listeners enjoy thisas much as I have.
I'll be sure and put a link toyour profile in the show notes
so people get to you easy andreach out to Jamila if you have
any questions aboutinterculturality or anything
else.
In general, she's a great teamcoach.
(32:52):
I've worked with Jamila beforeand I can say that she's
absolutely fantastic.
So, jamila, thank you so muchfor coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Thank you, Mark.
Thank you and keep up the goodwork with this podcast that I'm
sure is helping a lot of teamcoaches.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Appreciate that Awesome.
All right, everybody.
That brings an end to anotherepisode of the Agile Within.
We'll see everybody next time.
Thanks for joining us foranother episode of the Agile
Within.
If you haven't already, pleasejoin our LinkedIn page to stay
in touch.
(33:27):
Just search for the AgileWithin and please spread the
word with your friends andcolleagues Until next time.
This has been your host, markMetz.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!