March 19, 2025 • 37 mins
As a Scrum Master do you feel trapped in an endless cycle of fixing the same team problems? It just might be time to evolve your approach.
In this thought-provoking episode, Parjin Manguri shares her vision for "Scrum Master 2.0" - the evolution from team facilitator to systemic change agent. Drawing from her experiences across multiple organizations, Parjin explains why many team-level challenges are actually symptoms of deeper organizational issues that require a broader perspective to address.
We explore the delicate balance between focusing on immediate team needs while influencing system-level change. Parjin shares powerful examples of using data visualization to help leadership see the impact of their decisions, like the case of a team whose throughput skyrocketed when allowed to focus on a single sprint goal without interruption.
The conversation dives into practical tools and techniques for expanding your influence, including creating communities of practice with other Scrum Masters, mapping organizational decision points, and employing delegation poker to clarify autonomy levels. We also discuss strategies for facilitating productive conversations between teams and leadership that break down hierarchical barriers and create psychological safety.
Whether you're a Scrum Master feeling limited by your current role or a leader wondering how to unlock the full potential of your Agile coaches, this episode offers concrete strategies for addressing root causes rather than endlessly treating symptoms. Listen now to discover how you can become a more effective agent of meaningful organizational change.
Connect with Parjin on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/parjin-manguri-3185a6148/
Follow us on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-agile-within
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Agile Within.
I am your host, mark Metz.
My mission for this podcast isto provide Agile insights into
human values and behaviorsthrough genuine connections.
My guests and I will sharereal-life stories from our Agile
journeys, triumphs, blundersand everything in between, as
(00:29):
well as the lessons that we havelearned.
So get pumped, get rocking.
The Agile Within starts now.
Before we dive into today'sepisode, I'd like to take a
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(01:35):
That's impactagilityco.
Hey, welcome back everybody.
This is Mark Metz with theAgile Within.
I hope you're having anabsolutely fantastic day today.
My guest for today's episode isParjin Manguri.
Parjin, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Thank you very much, Mark.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, glad to have you.
So Parjin is from Granada,spain.
I think you're the first guestthat I've had from Spain, so
congratulations for that.
If I were coming to Granada fora day, parzian, and had never
been there before which Ihaven't what's one thing that
you would say that I couldn'tmiss doing?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Actually, mark, if you visit Granada, then you
definitely need to visitSacromonte.
Sacromonte is a beautifulneighborhood in Granada known
for cave dwellings and flamencoshows, so this is something that
you definitely need to see, andthere is like a very nice long
pathway which is called Veredade Enmedio, which is a beautiful
(02:40):
street that you can walk along,and then you can have also a
beautiful view to the Alhambra,which is a fortress and a palace
in Granada, and you see thatand also the mountains around it
, and then you definitely needto have some tapas as well.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Sounds very picturesque so is that a?
Place that you go often.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
I do.
I do Especially for reading,just taking a book, sitting
there having a view on themountains and I love that.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Oh, sounds lovely.
Well, I want to introduceParzian to everybody now that we
know about Granada.
So Parzian's origin is Kurdish,specifically from the north of
Iraq, but she grew up in Germanyand decided a couple years ago
to move to sunny South Spain.
She has over four years ofexperience as an Agile coach.
She started as a Scrum Masterand then transitioned into an
(03:30):
Agile coaching role, and she'scurrently pursuing the
Professional CoachingCertification.
That's not an easy endeavor.
It definitely requires somededications, and also, in
Parsons' free time, she loves todo CrossFit and play the piano.
So you are very well versed.
Indeed, the title for today'sepisode is Scrum Master 2.0.
(03:50):
So, parshan, tell us what youmean by that.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, actually, mark, I'm really excited about
today's topic because, for me,scrum Master 2.0 is going away
from the typical servant leaderScrum Master to a systemic
change agent.
For me, when we talk aboutScrum Masters, I think they do
not get the proper attentionthat they should.
So we often talk about ScrumMasters in the context of a team
(04:18):
facilitation, but they areplaying such a more and
important role, especially whenit comes to having a view on the
broader systemic level.
So what I often see is, forexample, that Scrum Masters, or
the teams of the Scrum Masters,when they face challenges, those
(04:39):
challenges are not often onlyteam challenges.
Those are symptoms of, let'ssay, deeper organizational
issues, and that's where theScrum Master can elevate from
being a servant leader to asystemic change agent.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
That definitely is a stance that some Scrum Masters
do, I'll just say, shy away fromas being a change agent,
feeling that it's someone else'sresponsibility, that their
responsibility is more on theteam level and not on the
organization level.
But it doesn't take you veryfar into reading the Scrum Guide
to see that being a changeagent for the organization, not
(05:16):
just the team and not just forthe product owner, is in our
responsibility, right?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Absolutely, and I think we can start here directly
.
You know, when we are, forexample, interviewing scrum
masters and also as a scrummaster, just be part of the
interview to try to understandwhat kind of view that specific
scrum master has when startingin the organization.
Right, because this is alsosomething that I always foresee
when interviewing scrum mastersto try to just touch upon
(05:44):
getting that understanding.
If they just have the view of,yeah, my team is running
smoothly and they do not haveany impediments, or they, they
have no internal conflicts, andthat's fine, but do they also
understand that they actuallyare there for the organization
and trying to understand what isgoing on on a system level?
(06:05):
Maybe also to clarify becauseI'm using the word system now a
couple of times when I talkabout system, it's really
everything in the organization.
So, starting from theorganizational culture, do we
have, for example, a lot ofhierarchies in the organization,
or is it more a collaborativeculture that we have?
Or how are decisions taken inthe organization, or is it more
(06:25):
collaborative culture that wehave?
Or how are decisions taken inin the organization?
Who's who's the owner of ofpower?
Are there like differencesthere as well, or do we have
kpis in place.
What kind of expectations do wehave from, from leaderships?
And also one important aspectthe cross-team dependencies.
Are there cross-teamdependencies or is your team
(06:46):
just organized around oneproduct, which is completely
independent from others as well?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
So I very frequently talk about keeping things in
balance, because many times theproblems aren't all the way on
one side, on the left side, andthe problems are all the way on
the right side.
It's that gray area somewhere inthe middle.
And tell me what you thinkabout this, because I have found
that when I've tried to, I'vepushed a little too hard on the
(07:15):
change agent side and what Inoticed happened was the team
started getting very muchfocused on things that were
outside of their control, thingsthat were organizational
impediments, and I really had toactually stop a retrospective
and say, okay, these are allgreat things that you say that
(07:36):
are impediments that areimpeding you, that are holding
you up, but everything that I'mhearing are things that are
outside of your control.
What are things that areoutside of your control?
What are things that are insideof your control?
That's what I mean by balanceis that, yes, we can be a change
agent, but sometimes we can beso hyper-focused on that that we
lose sight of the team.
And having that proper balance,how do you maintain that proper
(07:58):
balance so that teams areintrospective toward themselves
but also aware outside ofthemselves?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Oh, I think for me, mark, it is quite important that
the team I mean, of course theyhave when they're doing the
retrospectives and they come upwith all the impediments that
they're facing you know to havethe understanding, like you said
, what is within your controland what is outside of your
control.
But I think what is importantis that the Scrum Master is
aware of what are the thingshappening over and over again
which are not really a teamissue, but which is an
(08:31):
organizational issue, right?
So this is also when we talkabout protecting the team.
Of course, you should keepfocusing on the team and you
should also protect the teamfrom the outside dangers, let's
say.
But it is important that, as ascrum master, you have the
understanding okay, this ishappening over and over again,
right, maybe asking the questionwhy is this problem
(08:51):
re-happening over and over again?
And then to understand okay,this is something that I, as a
scrum master, need to pick up ina community, maybe, and this is
something that the team canfocus on, so that outside of the
team, you also build upconnections, right.
So we need to start withbuilding up awareness for the
scrum master that there are somesort of internal conflicts that
(09:13):
are happening, but then thatthere are also things outside of
the team dynamics that arehappening within the system.
So, starting with, okay, whatis happening over again, for
example?
Or okay, we face here an issuedue to decisions made by whom,
who's making that decision?
And maybe also to give you anexample, I had in one of my
(09:35):
teams or actually multiple teamsthe problem of high rollovers.
Right, so, they have plannedtheir sprint, but it kept
happening that the rollover fromsprint to sprint was quite high
and we had multiple teams, sothat the rollover amount of all
the teams was quite high.
And then there were managementattention.
(09:56):
Okay, so why do we have suchhigh rollover?
The scrum masters are notreally doing their job.
But then, when you try tounderstand what is the reason
behind of that rollover and it'snot really a team issue here,
but it's more an organizationalissues because, for example, the
requirements are not ready intime this is where you start to
realize that there are certainthings due to, for example, the
(10:19):
company working agile, but thecustomer not working agile.
So this is why the requirementscannot always be ready in
advance.
But try to understand what isthe reason behind and then you
can create, outside of yourspecific team, together with
other scrum masters, a communityto understand and then talk to
management.
(10:39):
Okay, you're complaining aboutthe rollover or you want to put
some KPIs in place which aremore controlling than
encouraging?
Let's fix, then, the actualroot cause and stop just fixing
symptoms.
This is something that Iactually focus a lot on to fix
their root causes instead ofjust trying to find short-term
(11:01):
solutions for the symptomspopping up.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
I'll give you a really good example on using
data to help with that.
And I had a team where it was ahigh-profile project or product
that they were working on,let's say, and the senior
management was very insistentthat they had to begin work on
multiple things.
And I see you smirking thepeople out there can't see you
(11:25):
smirking, but you know wherethis is headed.
And so then the conversationbecame at Sprint Review is like
boy, this team doesn't seem likethey're really getting a lot
done.
What's the problem?
Are we not fully committed, orwhat's the problem?
And we discussed this duringretrospectives and I felt that
now is the time to burst thebubble.
And so I said during the sprintreview.
(11:47):
I said, ok, the team feels likethey're being split between too
many different initiatives andthey really want to be able to
focus.
So tell you, what, can you giveme?
Just one sprint, just two weeks.
That's all I'm asking for.
Two weeks, help us to set agoal for the sprint and let's
not change it Now if somethingcomes down that the company is
(12:08):
going to go bankrupt if we don't, okay, understand that.
But short of bankruptcy, can weagree that we're just going to
set our course for two weeks andhold off anything urgent for
two weeks.
And so they agreed to that.
And at the end we measured thethroughput and I compared that
to the throughput of theprevious three sprints and the
chart was like I mean it was, itpainted a picture.
(12:30):
I mean you saw this, this lowbar chart, and then all of a
sudden, you see this huge jumplike you would want to see if
you invested in a stock.
Right, you see this huge jumpand immediately I saw people
pointing at the camera when weshowed that, oh, that looks,
yeah, that looks great Boy, whatwas the difference in this
sprint?
I was like aha, I'm glad youasked.
Well, you agreed to let usfocus on one sprint.
(12:53):
So this is the power of focusand not dividing our attention
between multiple things.
And after that point, that chartgot referenced numerous times
during various meetings Like oh,wait a minute, we're asking for
too many things at once.
Remember that chart.
We don't want to go back tothat low throughput.
(13:14):
We're causing churn for theteams.
Let's let them focus onsomething.
Get it done, then we'll work onthe next objective.
So that was a very long story,but it is a powerful portrayal
of how data and pictures canpaint the message.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's the point, right.
But here I see again theimportance of Scrum Masters, so
not only being focused on theteam, but having also that
conversation with management,because what I often see is that
Scrum Masters they focus toomuch on the team, literally
(13:52):
right, so they're afraidsometimes even to speak up and
to say okay, the real challengethat we're facing right now is
that, for example, we have toomuch context switching in our
team.
There are, like too manyinitiatives that we are focusing
on.
We're not even maybe are beingset up correctly, because if
you're working projects within ateam, of course everyone is
(14:13):
pushing deadlines, the highimportant requirements towards
the team, rather than beingfocused on okay, what is
actually our product?
What are we delivering here andwhat is our goal?
What is our sprint goal, as yousaid?
And if you then have a sprintgoal, you can work towards that.
But if you don't and you justwork projects and you know
everyone wants something fromyou, then it's also quite
(14:36):
difficult to actually achievesomething in a certain time and
then also deliver it in acertain quality, right.
But that conversation needs tohappen.
So you need to speak up as ascrum master and say like hey,
management, and then directlyalso talk to management, right,
because you do not need to hidebehind someone or try to, I
(14:56):
don't know.
Use your team manager or maybea coach, even, or whatever.
You can have that conversationon your own, like building up
the community with other scrummasters saying we all face the
same issues.
So it cannot be something teamrelated.
It is something happening on awider perspective.
How can we change that together?
What needs to change toactually be successful here?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
So there's a saying that a dead scrum master is a
useless scrum master.
Yeah, how do you build thattrust with the senior level
management?
Let's say, how do we build thetrust with the stakeholders that
we're coming to them and we'renot just favoring the team too
much, but we actually are doingthis for the goodness of the
organization?
How do you build thoserelationships?
(15:39):
How do you build those?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
relationships.
Well, I think you need to startmeeting them where they are.
First of all, try to understandtheir perspective.
So this is also very important,right?
Because when we are talkingabout system everyone in a
system there are, like so manysubsystems.
So try to understand first theperspective of the different
subsystems within a system, soyou have the view on your team
(16:03):
and then maybe put yourself intothe shoes of the high
management.
Okay, what is it exactly whatthey need to achieve?
Why are they acting a certainway?
And if you understand, you willhave a different way of
communicating with them, becauseyou're reading beyond the room,
right.
You understand when you need tospeak and when you need to
listen.
And then you also try to, let'ssay, navigate the conversation
(16:26):
without tension, without movingtowards escalation.
And one thing which is reallyimportant is if you, for example
, place your arguments or thechallenges that the teams are
facing, not just place themthere, because they might
probably already know.
You know we need to be solutionoriented.
So how could it lookdifferently and what would the
(16:47):
impact be?
Because management is orientedaround outcomes, right, we need
to deliver, the customer needsto be happy, et cetera, et
cetera.
So if we just place them, thechallenges, over there and say
like, okay, these are all theproblems that we have.
Okay, thank you very much.
What now?
Right, so we need to get anunderstanding and we can also
tackle them small.
So we can do small steps interms of we do not need to place
(17:09):
the whole bucket with problems,but maybe something which is
like very important and has alsoa very big impact across teams.
So if we talk, okay, we havethat specific challenge for
example, the requirements notbeing ready and everyone is
expecting that we are deliveringand have zero rollovers maybe
(17:30):
Scrum is not the right framework, even though we wish it would
be right, but it is not usefulright now.
So what is the actual problemhere?
And then try to find solutionsor different ways of working.
Be it, for example, if we wantto stick with scrum, okay, we
have four weeks that we usuallyhave as a sprint.
(17:50):
Let's maybe reduce it to two.
Would that help somehow?
Because then we have enough toplan.
So, giving them an overview ofthe challenges, maybe focusing
on on the most important, butthen come up right away with
possible solutions, still tryingto understand where they are
coming from.
The scrum master shouldunderstand what are the
(18:10):
challenges of high management orthe senior level, and then come
up with possible different waysof managing it where still some
part is met that is needed bysenior management, but still
making the shift towards wherewe actually want to go, because
you're usually not doing Scrumor Agile in an organization that
(18:32):
does not want to become Agile,right?
So, keeping that in mind, okay,our intention is to be Agile.
In order to be Agile, certainthings need to change, and that
would be a way to do so.
And then have, of course, abackup, and the backup is
usually being a group of scrummasters where you come together,
where you discuss all thesecertain challenges that are
(18:53):
placed in or that are inside ofthe organization and that are
not only met by one team butmultiple teams are facing right,
and then have the conversationsthere, and it can be also just
a regular call, like encouragingscrum bosses to have regular
calls with management just tomaybe give an update or give an
overview on what is going on andhow can we tackle that, forming
(19:15):
task forces for specific areas.
So we had, for example, in theorganization all of a sudden the
need for KPIs due to highrollovers and also due to some
other issues that were going on.
And then there was one teamthat was placing these KPIs into
place.
And we're not talking aboutagile KPIs like, for example,
(19:37):
velocity or I don't know.
You know, like, have theoverview of the burndown chart,
etc.
I'm talking about how manytickets have been done by whom,
how many tickets are rollingover and how many, for example,
questions were asked during thesprint towards the product owner
.
And there you see that there isa lot of control happening
(19:58):
inside of that team.
And the idea was because thatteam was fine or less with
having these KPIs in place, eventhough there was some friction
there, but the idea was to rollthat out throughout the whole
organization, to all the teams.
And here, if the scrum master isnot speaking up and sharing
with the community of scrummasters, okay, here this is
going on and this is going intoa wrong direction.
(20:20):
What can we do to steer intoanother direction that can go
wrong, like really wrong, right?
So what we did, for example, isokay, try to understand where
is the need coming from?
Again, same, basically sameroot issues that were due to
several other things happeningthere.
But we try to understand whereis it coming from things
(20:44):
happening there, but we try tounderstand where is it coming
from.
And then we try to understandwhat is it what they need?
And then we came up with a planB and said, okay, we understand
that you need this input.
For example, here's a differentway to visualize everything
that is happening inside of ateam, which is still agile,
though Right.
So we are not going intomicromanagement and creating
some sort of KPIs that areridiculous, but we are trying to
(21:07):
come up with something thatactually helps our organization
and the teams as well.
And that's when we formed atask force creating this new
dashboard, where also managementhad a visibility on what's
going on, which then went into amore positive direction.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
let's say, that's an absolutely fantastic example.
I love how you came together,got to the true problem that
needed to be solved and came upwith an alternative that was
even better than what wassuggested.
I think that's great.
I will say, parjan, thatsometimes, even though you do
your due diligence and eventhough you build a solid case,
(21:47):
sometimes it's just not in thecards and they say, okay, I
understand that, but this iswhat I want.
And when that case happens,what I find is that's important
for me as a scrum master, as acoach, is to at least say okay,
I understand that you reallywant this and you're really
strong against this.
I disagree, and you can say thatrespectfully.
(22:08):
You don't have to put your jobin jeopardy and say it in a very
mean-spirited way, but just tosay I disagree and to say these
are the risks that I feel likeyou're introducing.
By doing that, at least you'reshowing that you hear and you
don't necessarily agree withwhat's being suggested, but
you're going to go along with itand you're putting on record
(22:29):
these are the risks that Ibelieve you're accepting by
going forward with that, and Ifind that by doing that, it kind
of softens the blow a littlebit.
Maybe you don't get thatimmediate.
Okay, you're right, or okay,let's not do that.
But it sets the stage for youto change much more easy sooner,
(22:50):
as opposed to just havingsomething pushed down later.
But those are my thoughts onthat.
But you can't win them allright.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
You cannot.
But I absolutely agree with you.
I think even it's the duty ofthe scrum master to disagree
when there are certainconversations going on that go
into a wrong direction.
This is also something that is,I think, happening too often,
that we somehow internally Idon't want to say give up, but
just silently disagree right.
(23:23):
So we want to change.
We see that not everyone isgetting along with that change
or with the thoughts that wehave, and then we simply accept
it.
But I think it is very, veryimportant to say I kindly
disagree here because, forwhatever reason, and then
sharing also the reasons and, asyou said, sharing those risks
(23:46):
that come along with whatmanagement wants or whoever it
wants, right, it does notnecessarily need to be
management, it can also bewithin the team, because you're
not only a listener within theteam as the scrum master.
So if this, if the scrum teamor the, the team itself, goes
into, I don't know, into adifferent direction than it's
supposed to be, then you alsoneed to speak up there.
(24:08):
So speaking up definitely iscrucial for me absolutely
crucial.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
I almost equate it to like a sin of omission.
It's like well I didn't doanything wrong because I didn't
do anything.
Well, just not doing anythingdoesn't mean that that's not
wrong.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Talk to us a little bit about the tools and the
techniques that you've got tohelp scrum masters in these
challenges that we have, sure.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah, apart from one thing that I shared before, like
building the awareness andbuilding a community together
with other Scrum Masters, isalso really something that I
like, something that you touchedupon.
I influence, even though I amnot actively able to change
something right.
So, to visualize okay, here issomething that I understand is
(25:08):
not within my area and it can besimple.
It can be drawing, draw twocircles.
Try to understand.
Okay, this is within my power,this is something outside of my
power, and there is an areawhich is maybe outside of your
power but that you can activelyinfluence.
To understand that is already,let's say, one step forward.
And then what I also like alsoto to visualize is maybe
(25:33):
understand the, the report linesor the decision points, right,
so, so, creating kind oforganizational mappings or
influence mappings, just tounderstand, okay, here decisions
are made that way, here thisperson needs to report there.
Also to understand, like alittle bit, the subsystem within
the organization.
And then, if I see that theteams are quite limited, even
(25:59):
though everyone speaks aboutempowerment, maybe even to play
certain games like delegationpoker together with the
management, so play delegationpoker in terms of, okay, there
are certain areas where we needto report quite often, or where
we constantly need the okay fromyou.
How could it look like in anideal world?
(26:20):
Where is it that you actuallyneed to make the decision?
Where is it that it's justenough to be informed about it?
So this is also something thatI like to do, and to play with
management as well, which we areplanning currently as well, but
then also, of course, in thecommunities, and when I'm
talking about communities, I'mnot only talking about having
(26:42):
Scrum Master community right,which is important in itself, to
have a group of Scrum Masterscoming together to share their
challenges, but also be part ofother communities.
So broaden a little bit yourperspective in terms of, maybe
participate in a community fullof product owners, try to
(27:03):
understand their view, or maybetry to understand together with
leadership, or ask leadership tobe involved in some sort of
reoccurring leadership meetings,where it's quite nice to also
have the perspective of ScrumMasters, the voice of Scrum
Masters, when decisions aretaken that are impacting the way
of working of their developmentteams.
(27:24):
These could be, I think, somequite nice tools that Scrum
Masters can use.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Those are great.
I'm going to second yoursuggestion on delegation poker.
That's been very successful tome and very eye-opening, so I
definitely second that motion.
So when you invite team membersin to talk with either the
stakeholders or you're talkingsenior level executives, what
are some ways that you set thestage for that?
Because that can be veryintimidating to some team
(27:52):
members, especially if you'venever been in that situation
where you're working in a largerorganization and it is very
hierarchical.
You're kind of in the safe zoneof working with your team and
you can kind of do and saywhatever you want in the team,
but now you're being invited tothis meeting or this event where
you're able to talk with seniorlevel executives.
(28:15):
How do you set the stage forthat?
I've got some thoughts, but Iwant to hear yours first.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yeah, sure, I think there are like some really nice
facilitation techniques, becauseI think it is first of all very
important to understand whatkind of meeting it is right.
Is it a meeting where you aretrying to share your thoughts
but you're overruled bymanagement and it's like, okay,
whatever management says is likeum, let's say, put on the on
the golden plate afterwards.
Or is it something wheremanagement allows you to freely
(28:45):
share your view and it's notoverruled by them, right it?
It depends on understandingthat first.
So, for example, let's imagineI would set up a meeting
together with the developers andmanagement.
I would in the beginning makeclear that everyone here is
supposed to act on an eye-to-eyelevel, so there is no hierarchy
(29:06):
within that specific session.
So management, for example, issharing.
And let's imagine we're havingan interactive session where we
are supposed to place stickieson a board or whatever.
Everyone is doing that at thesame time, including management.
Because if you, for example,start with management or you
start with the developers andthe management is doing that
afterwards, it directly createsthis kind of hierarchy because
(29:30):
you you just wait for them to tostart or to end and you just
follow right.
So let's imagine managementstarts with their stickies,
everyone else will just playsomething similar or nothing on
the board, right?
And I think also it is importantto have that conversation as a
Scrum Master beforehand with theparticipants, which are not the
(29:52):
developers, so management tomake a very open speech.
What is the intention here,what is going to be my role in
that conversation as well, justto have this, this kind of
ice-breaking effect on the team.
And if the team plus managementis not there yet, I think what
(30:13):
is also quite nice is kind of asilent workshop or a silent
ritual, whatever it is thatneeds to be done where people
are not yet there to show okay,I am the one saying this, but
it's kind of anonymous, rightJust to try to understand what
is the actual situation in thebeginning before we make further
(30:34):
steps into becoming more open.
So you need to build some trustand a relationship in the
beginning before moving forward.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Wonderfully said.
That was exactly my suggestionis the scrum master really is
going to know the temperature ofthe team, they're going to know
whether things are boiling overor whether it's just kind of
they're scared to say anything,and just be transparent and go
in to say, okay, we're going tothis meeting and, as a senior
leader, I just feel like youshould know.
(31:05):
They're scared, they're reallynot going to be upfront with you
, they're going to be veryreserved.
So I would like to help you.
How can I help you make themmore open into this meeting?
Because odds are they're goingto come in and they're going to
want to listen to you andthey're not going to want to say
much.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
And.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I think that is extremely important because,
let's face it, they're used totalking.
Right, they come into a room,everybody looks at them and they
just start talking.
They lead lots of meetings,they stand in front of the whole
organization or the wholedepartment and they represent
everybody.
So they're very used to talking, letting them know exactly what
(31:46):
they're stepping into.
And that's where I find thedelegation poker to be just
absolutely fantastic for tryingto level that up.
And it's interesting too to seethe difference in the
perspectives.
Right, you see the autonomylevel of senior leadership.
Oh, teams are yeah, to see thedifference in the, in the
perspectives, right, you see,like the autonomy level of
senior leadership?
Oh, teams are, yeah, they'reautonomous, they know they can
do whatever they want.
Yeah, they can take the ball.
(32:07):
And then the teams are like, ohhey, we're just told what to do
and we just do it, no questionsasked.
Those are very interesting andfascinating sessions to run, but
, yeah, so, and then on theother side, prepping the team as
well, letting them know thatthis isn't going to be
successful if everyone just issilent with cameras off.
(32:29):
Right, if you don't bringanything to the table, then this
is going to be a waste ofeverybody's time.
So it's up to you.
If you want to make thisvaluable, if you want to see
some of these impediments thatyou're obviously so passionate
about, Don't go in guns blazing,but be respectful.
Let's get these things out inthe open and find out how the
(32:52):
management team can support you.
What do you need from them?
So, yeah, being that person Isee the scrum master is like the
person who sets the table for alot of these conversations.
They set the environment sothat it's right, so that when
the people come together theycan actually have a great
conversation and get to somemeaningful actions.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Fully agree.
Two points to add.
On one hand, regarding thepreparation of management, I
think that you made some reallygreat points here and I think it
is also important to addressthat one topic use easy language
, right?
Not these intimidating bigbuzzwords where people are just
(33:33):
feeling, okay, what is meantwith that?
And even if I know what it'smeant, it's like overwhelming
for me, just like use languagethat we are using, like try to
speak our language as well.
And when we are talking aboutprepping the team, I think it is
really important to alsounderstand and consider that not
(33:53):
everyone likes to speak, noteven inside of the team, right?
There are like differentcharacters, which is totally
fine.
You can indeed prep the team,have that internal conversation.
What do we want to share andwho's going to share that?
Maybe it is not needed thateveryone speaks up because it is
like you said it isintimidating, it's.
Maybe for some, the stresslevel is increasingly high just
(34:15):
knowing that they have to talkto management.
But make sure that your pointsare heard.
So if you do not want to speakup in front of management, make
sure that that one person thatis going to represent you, which
can be a colleague of yours iscovering everything that you
want to say as well, so that youdo not feel that, okay, this
was a waste of time, or, oh, Iwish I could speak up right now,
(34:36):
but I am afraid no, I know thatsomeone will have my back as
well during that conversation.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
All right, Parjan.
The time has gone by so fast.
We have so much more to talkabout, but we do have a time
limit to stay within, and ScrumMasters are very good about
respecting time limits, so we'regoing to do that.
What advice do you have forScrum Masters out there that
might be?
You know, after hearing thisepisode, I believe I could be
(35:05):
more of a change agent.
I've shied away from that.
What advice do you have forthose Scrum Masters out there
that might find themselves inthat situation?
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Well, one of my advices would be definitely to,
if you do not have a communityyet, to start with building that
community, fellow scrummonsters, to have that
conversation with them and thenalso try to understand that the
team dynamics or your team areonly one part of the story.
Right, try really to understandbetween the challenges that you
(35:34):
, as a scrum monster, are facinginside of the organization Is
that really a team issue or isthere something deeper behind?
And then, maybe, just to startvery simple, start drawing.
Start drawing the actualcurrent team situation that you
have and then try to understandokay, is that something really
(35:54):
happening only inside of theteam or might there be something
bigger behind that I can tacklewith whomever is needed in
supporting me regarding thatissue, right?
So this is something where Iwould say start drawing and then
also understand that there isso much more happening inside
the organization and show howvaluable you are.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Fantastic advice.
Thank you, parjan.
Well, our listeners out there.
If they want to get in touchwith you, what's the best way
for them to do that?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Actually, everyone can find me on LinkedIn under my
name Pajamanguri, and that'swhere you can find me.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Great.
We'll leave a link to that inthe show notes to make it easy
for our listeners.
So, Parjan, thank you so much.
This has been a pleasure.
I really appreciate your timecoming on the show today thank
you so much, mark all right,everybody.
That brings an end to anotherepisode of the agile within.
We'll see you next time.
Thanks for joining us foranother episode of the agile
(36:55):
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(00:29):
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That's impactagilityco.
Hey, welcome back everybody.
This is Mark Metz with theAgile Within.
I hope you're having anabsolutely fantastic day today.
My guest for today's episode isParjin Manguri.
Parjin, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Thank you very much, Mark.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, glad to have you.
So Parjin is from Granada,spain.
I think you're the first guestthat I've had from Spain, so
congratulations for that.
If I were coming to Granada fora day, parzian, and had never
been there before which Ihaven't what's one thing that
you would say that I couldn'tmiss doing?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Actually, mark, if you visit Granada, then you
definitely need to visitSacromonte.
Sacromonte is a beautifulneighborhood in Granada known
for cave dwellings and flamencoshows, so this is something that
you definitely need to see, andthere is like a very nice long
pathway which is called Veredade Enmedio, which is a beautiful
(02:40):
street that you can walk along,and then you can have also a
beautiful view to the Alhambra,which is a fortress and a palace
in Granada, and you see thatand also the mountains around it
, and then you definitely needto have some tapas as well.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Sounds very picturesque so is that a?
Place that you go often.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
I do.
I do Especially for reading,just taking a book, sitting
there having a view on themountains and I love that.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Oh, sounds lovely.
Well, I want to introduceParzian to everybody now that we
know about Granada.
So Parzian's origin is Kurdish,specifically from the north of
Iraq, but she grew up in Germanyand decided a couple years ago
to move to sunny South Spain.
She has over four years ofexperience as an Agile coach.
She started as a Scrum Masterand then transitioned into an
(03:30):
Agile coaching role, and she'scurrently pursuing the
Professional CoachingCertification.
That's not an easy endeavor.
It definitely requires somededications, and also, in
Parsons' free time, she loves todo CrossFit and play the piano.
So you are very well versed.
Indeed, the title for today'sepisode is Scrum Master 2.0.
(03:50):
So, parshan, tell us what youmean by that.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, actually, mark, I'm really excited about
today's topic because, for me,scrum Master 2.0 is going away
from the typical servant leaderScrum Master to a systemic
change agent.
For me, when we talk aboutScrum Masters, I think they do
not get the proper attentionthat they should.
So we often talk about ScrumMasters in the context of a team
(04:18):
facilitation, but they areplaying such a more and
important role, especially whenit comes to having a view on the
broader systemic level.
So what I often see is, forexample, that Scrum Masters, or
the teams of the Scrum Masters,when they face challenges, those
(04:39):
challenges are not often onlyteam challenges.
Those are symptoms of, let'ssay, deeper organizational
issues, and that's where theScrum Master can elevate from
being a servant leader to asystemic change agent.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
That definitely is a stance that some Scrum Masters
do, I'll just say, shy away fromas being a change agent,
feeling that it's someone else'sresponsibility, that their
responsibility is more on theteam level and not on the
organization level.
But it doesn't take you veryfar into reading the Scrum Guide
to see that being a changeagent for the organization, not
(05:16):
just the team and not just forthe product owner, is in our
responsibility, right?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Absolutely, and I think we can start here directly
.
You know, when we are, forexample, interviewing scrum
masters and also as a scrummaster, just be part of the
interview to try to understandwhat kind of view that specific
scrum master has when startingin the organization.
Right, because this is alsosomething that I always foresee
when interviewing scrum mastersto try to just touch upon
(05:44):
getting that understanding.
If they just have the view of,yeah, my team is running
smoothly and they do not haveany impediments, or they, they
have no internal conflicts, andthat's fine, but do they also
understand that they actuallyare there for the organization
and trying to understand what isgoing on on a system level?
(06:05):
Maybe also to clarify becauseI'm using the word system now a
couple of times when I talkabout system, it's really
everything in the organization.
So, starting from theorganizational culture, do we
have, for example, a lot ofhierarchies in the organization,
or is it more a collaborativeculture that we have?
Or how are decisions taken inthe organization, or is it more
(06:25):
collaborative culture that wehave?
Or how are decisions taken inin the organization?
Who's who's the owner of ofpower?
Are there like differencesthere as well, or do we have
kpis in place.
What kind of expectations do wehave from, from leaderships?
And also one important aspectthe cross-team dependencies.
Are there cross-teamdependencies or is your team
(06:46):
just organized around oneproduct, which is completely
independent from others as well?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
So I very frequently talk about keeping things in
balance, because many times theproblems aren't all the way on
one side, on the left side, andthe problems are all the way on
the right side.
It's that gray area somewhere inthe middle.
And tell me what you thinkabout this, because I have found
that when I've tried to, I'vepushed a little too hard on the
(07:15):
change agent side and what Inoticed happened was the team
started getting very muchfocused on things that were
outside of their control, thingsthat were organizational
impediments, and I really had toactually stop a retrospective
and say, okay, these are allgreat things that you say that
(07:36):
are impediments that areimpeding you, that are holding
you up, but everything that I'mhearing are things that are
outside of your control.
What are things that areoutside of your control?
What are things that are insideof your control?
That's what I mean by balanceis that, yes, we can be a change
agent, but sometimes we can beso hyper-focused on that that we
lose sight of the team.
And having that proper balance,how do you maintain that proper
(07:58):
balance so that teams areintrospective toward themselves
but also aware outside ofthemselves?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Oh, I think for me, mark, it is quite important that
the team I mean, of course theyhave when they're doing the
retrospectives and they come upwith all the impediments that
they're facing you know to havethe understanding, like you said
, what is within your controland what is outside of your
control.
But I think what is importantis that the Scrum Master is
aware of what are the thingshappening over and over again
which are not really a teamissue, but which is an
(08:31):
organizational issue, right?
So this is also when we talkabout protecting the team.
Of course, you should keepfocusing on the team and you
should also protect the teamfrom the outside dangers, let's
say.
But it is important that, as ascrum master, you have the
understanding okay, this ishappening over and over again,
right, maybe asking the questionwhy is this problem
(08:51):
re-happening over and over again?
And then to understand okay,this is something that I, as a
scrum master, need to pick up ina community, maybe, and this is
something that the team canfocus on, so that outside of the
team, you also build upconnections, right.
So we need to start withbuilding up awareness for the
scrum master that there are somesort of internal conflicts that
(09:13):
are happening, but then thatthere are also things outside of
the team dynamics that arehappening within the system.
So, starting with, okay, whatis happening over again, for
example?
Or okay, we face here an issuedue to decisions made by whom,
who's making that decision?
And maybe also to give you anexample, I had in one of my
(09:35):
teams or actually multiple teamsthe problem of high rollovers.
Right, so, they have plannedtheir sprint, but it kept
happening that the rollover fromsprint to sprint was quite high
and we had multiple teams, sothat the rollover amount of all
the teams was quite high.
And then there were managementattention.
(09:56):
Okay, so why do we have suchhigh rollover?
The scrum masters are notreally doing their job.
But then, when you try tounderstand what is the reason
behind of that rollover and it'snot really a team issue here,
but it's more an organizationalissues because, for example, the
requirements are not ready intime this is where you start to
realize that there are certainthings due to, for example, the
(10:19):
company working agile, but thecustomer not working agile.
So this is why the requirementscannot always be ready in
advance.
But try to understand what isthe reason behind and then you
can create, outside of yourspecific team, together with
other scrum masters, a communityto understand and then talk to
management.
(10:39):
Okay, you're complaining aboutthe rollover or you want to put
some KPIs in place which aremore controlling than
encouraging?
Let's fix, then, the actualroot cause and stop just fixing
symptoms.
This is something that Iactually focus a lot on to fix
their root causes instead ofjust trying to find short-term
(11:01):
solutions for the symptomspopping up.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
I'll give you a really good example on using
data to help with that.
And I had a team where it was ahigh-profile project or product
that they were working on,let's say, and the senior
management was very insistentthat they had to begin work on
multiple things.
And I see you smirking thepeople out there can't see you
(11:25):
smirking, but you know wherethis is headed.
And so then the conversationbecame at Sprint Review is like
boy, this team doesn't seem likethey're really getting a lot
done.
What's the problem?
Are we not fully committed, orwhat's the problem?
And we discussed this duringretrospectives and I felt that
now is the time to burst thebubble.
And so I said during the sprintreview.
(11:47):
I said, ok, the team feels likethey're being split between too
many different initiatives andthey really want to be able to
focus.
So tell you, what, can you giveme?
Just one sprint, just two weeks.
That's all I'm asking for.
Two weeks, help us to set agoal for the sprint and let's
not change it Now if somethingcomes down that the company is
(12:08):
going to go bankrupt if we don't, okay, understand that.
But short of bankruptcy, can weagree that we're just going to
set our course for two weeks andhold off anything urgent for
two weeks.
And so they agreed to that.
And at the end we measured thethroughput and I compared that
to the throughput of theprevious three sprints and the
chart was like I mean it was, itpainted a picture.
(12:30):
I mean you saw this, this lowbar chart, and then all of a
sudden, you see this huge jumplike you would want to see if
you invested in a stock.
Right, you see this huge jumpand immediately I saw people
pointing at the camera when weshowed that, oh, that looks,
yeah, that looks great Boy, whatwas the difference in this
sprint?
I was like aha, I'm glad youasked.
Well, you agreed to let usfocus on one sprint.
(12:53):
So this is the power of focusand not dividing our attention
between multiple things.
And after that point, that chartgot referenced numerous times
during various meetings Like oh,wait a minute, we're asking for
too many things at once.
Remember that chart.
We don't want to go back tothat low throughput.
(13:14):
We're causing churn for theteams.
Let's let them focus onsomething.
Get it done, then we'll work onthe next objective.
So that was a very long story,but it is a powerful portrayal
of how data and pictures canpaint the message.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's the point, right.
But here I see again theimportance of Scrum Masters, so
not only being focused on theteam, but having also that
conversation with management,because what I often see is that
Scrum Masters they focus toomuch on the team, literally
(13:52):
right, so they're afraidsometimes even to speak up and
to say okay, the real challengethat we're facing right now is
that, for example, we have toomuch context switching in our
team.
There are, like too manyinitiatives that we are focusing
on.
We're not even maybe are beingset up correctly, because if
you're working projects within ateam, of course everyone is
(14:13):
pushing deadlines, the highimportant requirements towards
the team, rather than beingfocused on okay, what is
actually our product?
What are we delivering here andwhat is our goal?
What is our sprint goal, as yousaid?
And if you then have a sprintgoal, you can work towards that.
But if you don't and you justwork projects and you know
everyone wants something fromyou, then it's also quite
(14:36):
difficult to actually achievesomething in a certain time and
then also deliver it in acertain quality, right.
But that conversation needs tohappen.
So you need to speak up as ascrum master and say like hey,
management, and then directlyalso talk to management, right,
because you do not need to hidebehind someone or try to, I
(14:56):
don't know.
Use your team manager or maybea coach, even, or whatever.
You can have that conversationon your own, like building up
the community with other scrummasters saying we all face the
same issues.
So it cannot be something teamrelated.
It is something happening on awider perspective.
How can we change that together?
What needs to change toactually be successful here?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
So there's a saying that a dead scrum master is a
useless scrum master.
Yeah, how do you build thattrust with the senior level
management?
Let's say, how do we build thetrust with the stakeholders that
we're coming to them and we'renot just favoring the team too
much, but we actually are doingthis for the goodness of the
organization?
How do you build thoserelationships?
(15:39):
How do you build those?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
relationships.
Well, I think you need to startmeeting them where they are.
First of all, try to understandtheir perspective.
So this is also very important,right?
Because when we are talkingabout system everyone in a
system there are, like so manysubsystems.
So try to understand first theperspective of the different
subsystems within a system, soyou have the view on your team
(16:03):
and then maybe put yourself intothe shoes of the high
management.
Okay, what is it exactly whatthey need to achieve?
Why are they acting a certainway?
And if you understand, you willhave a different way of
communicating with them, becauseyou're reading beyond the room,
right.
You understand when you need tospeak and when you need to
listen.
And then you also try to, let'ssay, navigate the conversation
(16:26):
without tension, without movingtowards escalation.
And one thing which is reallyimportant is if you, for example
, place your arguments or thechallenges that the teams are
facing, not just place themthere, because they might
probably already know.
You know we need to be solutionoriented.
So how could it lookdifferently and what would the
(16:47):
impact be?
Because management is orientedaround outcomes, right, we need
to deliver, the customer needsto be happy, et cetera, et
cetera.
So if we just place them, thechallenges, over there and say
like, okay, these are all theproblems that we have.
Okay, thank you very much.
What now?
Right, so we need to get anunderstanding and we can also
tackle them small.
So we can do small steps interms of we do not need to place
(17:09):
the whole bucket with problems,but maybe something which is
like very important and has alsoa very big impact across teams.
So if we talk, okay, we havethat specific challenge for
example, the requirements notbeing ready and everyone is
expecting that we are deliveringand have zero rollovers maybe
(17:30):
Scrum is not the right framework, even though we wish it would
be right, but it is not usefulright now.
So what is the actual problemhere?
And then try to find solutionsor different ways of working.
Be it, for example, if we wantto stick with scrum, okay, we
have four weeks that we usuallyhave as a sprint.
(17:50):
Let's maybe reduce it to two.
Would that help somehow?
Because then we have enough toplan.
So, giving them an overview ofthe challenges, maybe focusing
on on the most important, butthen come up right away with
possible solutions, still tryingto understand where they are
coming from.
The scrum master shouldunderstand what are the
(18:10):
challenges of high management orthe senior level, and then come
up with possible different waysof managing it where still some
part is met that is needed bysenior management, but still
making the shift towards wherewe actually want to go, because
you're usually not doing Scrumor Agile in an organization that
(18:32):
does not want to become Agile,right?
So, keeping that in mind, okay,our intention is to be Agile.
In order to be Agile, certainthings need to change, and that
would be a way to do so.
And then have, of course, abackup, and the backup is
usually being a group of scrummasters where you come together,
where you discuss all thesecertain challenges that are
(18:53):
placed in or that are inside ofthe organization and that are
not only met by one team butmultiple teams are facing right,
and then have the conversationsthere, and it can be also just
a regular call, like encouragingscrum bosses to have regular
calls with management just tomaybe give an update or give an
overview on what is going on andhow can we tackle that, forming
(19:15):
task forces for specific areas.
So we had, for example, in theorganization all of a sudden the
need for KPIs due to highrollovers and also due to some
other issues that were going on.
And then there was one teamthat was placing these KPIs into
place.
And we're not talking aboutagile KPIs like, for example,
(19:37):
velocity or I don't know.
You know, like, have theoverview of the burndown chart,
etc.
I'm talking about how manytickets have been done by whom,
how many tickets are rollingover and how many, for example,
questions were asked during thesprint towards the product owner
.
And there you see that there isa lot of control happening
(19:58):
inside of that team.
And the idea was because thatteam was fine or less with
having these KPIs in place, eventhough there was some friction
there, but the idea was to rollthat out throughout the whole
organization, to all the teams.
And here, if the scrum master isnot speaking up and sharing
with the community of scrummasters, okay, here this is
going on and this is going intoa wrong direction.
(20:20):
What can we do to steer intoanother direction that can go
wrong, like really wrong, right?
So what we did, for example, isokay, try to understand where
is the need coming from?
Again, same, basically sameroot issues that were due to
several other things happeningthere.
But we try to understand whereis it coming from things
(20:44):
happening there, but we try tounderstand where is it coming
from.
And then we try to understandwhat is it what they need?
And then we came up with a planB and said, okay, we understand
that you need this input.
For example, here's a differentway to visualize everything
that is happening inside of ateam, which is still agile,
though Right.
So we are not going intomicromanagement and creating
some sort of KPIs that areridiculous, but we are trying to
(21:07):
come up with something thatactually helps our organization
and the teams as well.
And that's when we formed atask force creating this new
dashboard, where also managementhad a visibility on what's
going on, which then went into amore positive direction.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
let's say, that's an absolutely fantastic example.
I love how you came together,got to the true problem that
needed to be solved and came upwith an alternative that was
even better than what wassuggested.
I think that's great.
I will say, parjan, thatsometimes, even though you do
your due diligence and eventhough you build a solid case,
(21:47):
sometimes it's just not in thecards and they say, okay, I
understand that, but this iswhat I want.
And when that case happens,what I find is that's important
for me as a scrum master, as acoach, is to at least say okay,
I understand that you reallywant this and you're really
strong against this.
I disagree, and you can say thatrespectfully.
(22:08):
You don't have to put your jobin jeopardy and say it in a very
mean-spirited way, but just tosay I disagree and to say these
are the risks that I feel likeyou're introducing.
By doing that, at least you'reshowing that you hear and you
don't necessarily agree withwhat's being suggested, but
you're going to go along with itand you're putting on record
(22:29):
these are the risks that Ibelieve you're accepting by
going forward with that, and Ifind that by doing that, it kind
of softens the blow a littlebit.
Maybe you don't get thatimmediate.
Okay, you're right, or okay,let's not do that.
But it sets the stage for youto change much more easy sooner,
(22:50):
as opposed to just havingsomething pushed down later.
But those are my thoughts onthat.
But you can't win them allright.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
You cannot.
But I absolutely agree with you.
I think even it's the duty ofthe scrum master to disagree
when there are certainconversations going on that go
into a wrong direction.
This is also something that is,I think, happening too often,
that we somehow internally Idon't want to say give up, but
just silently disagree right.
(23:23):
So we want to change.
We see that not everyone isgetting along with that change
or with the thoughts that wehave, and then we simply accept
it.
But I think it is very, veryimportant to say I kindly
disagree here because, forwhatever reason, and then
sharing also the reasons and, asyou said, sharing those risks
(23:46):
that come along with whatmanagement wants or whoever it
wants, right, it does notnecessarily need to be
management, it can also bewithin the team, because you're
not only a listener within theteam as the scrum master.
So if this, if the scrum teamor the, the team itself, goes
into, I don't know, into adifferent direction than it's
supposed to be, then you alsoneed to speak up there.
(24:08):
So speaking up definitely iscrucial for me absolutely
crucial.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
I almost equate it to like a sin of omission.
It's like well I didn't doanything wrong because I didn't
do anything.
Well, just not doing anythingdoesn't mean that that's not
wrong.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Talk to us a little bit about the tools and the
techniques that you've got tohelp scrum masters in these
challenges that we have, sure.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah, apart from one thing that I shared before, like
building the awareness andbuilding a community together
with other Scrum Masters, isalso really something that I
like, something that you touchedupon.
I influence, even though I amnot actively able to change
something right.
So, to visualize okay, here issomething that I understand is
(25:08):
not within my area and it can besimple.
It can be drawing, draw twocircles.
Try to understand.
Okay, this is within my power,this is something outside of my
power, and there is an areawhich is maybe outside of your
power but that you can activelyinfluence.
To understand that is already,let's say, one step forward.
And then what I also like alsoto to visualize is maybe
(25:33):
understand the, the report linesor the decision points, right,
so, so, creating kind oforganizational mappings or
influence mappings, just tounderstand, okay, here decisions
are made that way, here thisperson needs to report there.
Also to understand, like alittle bit, the subsystem within
the organization.
And then, if I see that theteams are quite limited, even
(25:59):
though everyone speaks aboutempowerment, maybe even to play
certain games like delegationpoker together with the
management, so play delegationpoker in terms of, okay, there
are certain areas where we needto report quite often, or where
we constantly need the okay fromyou.
How could it look like in anideal world?
(26:20):
Where is it that you actuallyneed to make the decision?
Where is it that it's justenough to be informed about it?
So this is also something thatI like to do, and to play with
management as well, which we areplanning currently as well, but
then also, of course, in thecommunities, and when I'm
talking about communities, I'mnot only talking about having
(26:42):
Scrum Master community right,which is important in itself, to
have a group of Scrum Masterscoming together to share their
challenges, but also be part ofother communities.
So broaden a little bit yourperspective in terms of, maybe
participate in a community fullof product owners, try to
(27:03):
understand their view, or maybetry to understand together with
leadership, or ask leadership tobe involved in some sort of
reoccurring leadership meetings,where it's quite nice to also
have the perspective of ScrumMasters, the voice of Scrum
Masters, when decisions aretaken that are impacting the way
of working of their developmentteams.
(27:24):
These could be, I think, somequite nice tools that Scrum
Masters can use.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Those are great.
I'm going to second yoursuggestion on delegation poker.
That's been very successful tome and very eye-opening, so I
definitely second that motion.
So when you invite team membersin to talk with either the
stakeholders or you're talkingsenior level executives, what
are some ways that you set thestage for that?
Because that can be veryintimidating to some team
(27:52):
members, especially if you'venever been in that situation
where you're working in a largerorganization and it is very
hierarchical.
You're kind of in the safe zoneof working with your team and
you can kind of do and saywhatever you want in the team,
but now you're being invited tothis meeting or this event where
you're able to talk with seniorlevel executives.
(28:15):
How do you set the stage forthat?
I've got some thoughts, but Iwant to hear yours first.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yeah, sure, I think there are like some really nice
facilitation techniques, becauseI think it is first of all very
important to understand whatkind of meeting it is right.
Is it a meeting where you aretrying to share your thoughts
but you're overruled bymanagement and it's like, okay,
whatever management says is likeum, let's say, put on the on
the golden plate afterwards.
Or is it something wheremanagement allows you to freely
(28:45):
share your view and it's notoverruled by them, right it?
It depends on understandingthat first.
So, for example, let's imagineI would set up a meeting
together with the developers andmanagement.
I would in the beginning makeclear that everyone here is
supposed to act on an eye-to-eyelevel, so there is no hierarchy
(29:06):
within that specific session.
So management, for example, issharing.
And let's imagine we're havingan interactive session where we
are supposed to place stickieson a board or whatever.
Everyone is doing that at thesame time, including management.
Because if you, for example,start with management or you
start with the developers andthe management is doing that
afterwards, it directly createsthis kind of hierarchy because
(29:30):
you you just wait for them to tostart or to end and you just
follow right.
So let's imagine managementstarts with their stickies,
everyone else will just playsomething similar or nothing on
the board, right?
And I think also it is importantto have that conversation as a
Scrum Master beforehand with theparticipants, which are not the
(29:52):
developers, so management tomake a very open speech.
What is the intention here,what is going to be my role in
that conversation as well, justto have this, this kind of
ice-breaking effect on the team.
And if the team plus managementis not there yet, I think what
(30:13):
is also quite nice is kind of asilent workshop or a silent
ritual, whatever it is thatneeds to be done where people
are not yet there to show okay,I am the one saying this, but
it's kind of anonymous, rightJust to try to understand what
is the actual situation in thebeginning before we make further
(30:34):
steps into becoming more open.
So you need to build some trustand a relationship in the
beginning before moving forward.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Wonderfully said.
That was exactly my suggestionis the scrum master really is
going to know the temperature ofthe team, they're going to know
whether things are boiling overor whether it's just kind of
they're scared to say anything,and just be transparent and go
in to say, okay, we're going tothis meeting and, as a senior
leader, I just feel like youshould know.
(31:05):
They're scared, they're reallynot going to be upfront with you
, they're going to be veryreserved.
So I would like to help you.
How can I help you make themmore open into this meeting?
Because odds are they're goingto come in and they're going to
want to listen to you andthey're not going to want to say
much.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
And.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I think that is extremely important because,
let's face it, they're used totalking.
Right, they come into a room,everybody looks at them and they
just start talking.
They lead lots of meetings,they stand in front of the whole
organization or the wholedepartment and they represent
everybody.
So they're very used to talking, letting them know exactly what
(31:46):
they're stepping into.
And that's where I find thedelegation poker to be just
absolutely fantastic for tryingto level that up.
And it's interesting too to seethe difference in the
perspectives.
Right, you see the autonomylevel of senior leadership.
Oh, teams are yeah, to see thedifference in the, in the
perspectives, right, you see,like the autonomy level of
senior leadership?
Oh, teams are, yeah, they'reautonomous, they know they can
do whatever they want.
Yeah, they can take the ball.
(32:07):
And then the teams are like, ohhey, we're just told what to do
and we just do it, no questionsasked.
Those are very interesting andfascinating sessions to run, but
, yeah, so, and then on theother side, prepping the team as
well, letting them know thatthis isn't going to be
successful if everyone just issilent with cameras off.
(32:29):
Right, if you don't bringanything to the table, then this
is going to be a waste ofeverybody's time.
So it's up to you.
If you want to make thisvaluable, if you want to see
some of these impediments thatyou're obviously so passionate
about, Don't go in guns blazing,but be respectful.
Let's get these things out inthe open and find out how the
(32:52):
management team can support you.
What do you need from them?
So, yeah, being that person Isee the scrum master is like the
person who sets the table for alot of these conversations.
They set the environment sothat it's right, so that when
the people come together theycan actually have a great
conversation and get to somemeaningful actions.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Fully agree.
Two points to add.
On one hand, regarding thepreparation of management, I
think that you made some reallygreat points here and I think it
is also important to addressthat one topic use easy language
, right?
Not these intimidating bigbuzzwords where people are just
(33:33):
feeling, okay, what is meantwith that?
And even if I know what it'smeant, it's like overwhelming
for me, just like use languagethat we are using, like try to
speak our language as well.
And when we are talking aboutprepping the team, I think it is
really important to alsounderstand and consider that not
(33:53):
everyone likes to speak, noteven inside of the team, right?
There are like differentcharacters, which is totally
fine.
You can indeed prep the team,have that internal conversation.
What do we want to share andwho's going to share that?
Maybe it is not needed thateveryone speaks up because it is
like you said it isintimidating, it's.
Maybe for some, the stresslevel is increasingly high just
(34:15):
knowing that they have to talkto management.
But make sure that your pointsare heard.
So if you do not want to speakup in front of management, make
sure that that one person thatis going to represent you, which
can be a colleague of yours iscovering everything that you
want to say as well, so that youdo not feel that, okay, this
was a waste of time, or, oh, Iwish I could speak up right now,
(34:36):
but I am afraid no, I know thatsomeone will have my back as
well during that conversation.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
All right, Parjan.
The time has gone by so fast.
We have so much more to talkabout, but we do have a time
limit to stay within, and ScrumMasters are very good about
respecting time limits, so we'regoing to do that.
What advice do you have forScrum Masters out there that
might be?
You know, after hearing thisepisode, I believe I could be
(35:05):
more of a change agent.
I've shied away from that.
What advice do you have forthose Scrum Masters out there
that might find themselves inthat situation?
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Well, one of my advices would be definitely to,
if you do not have a communityyet, to start with building that
community, fellow scrummonsters, to have that
conversation with them and thenalso try to understand that the
team dynamics or your team areonly one part of the story.
Right, try really to understandbetween the challenges that you
(35:34):
, as a scrum monster, are facinginside of the organization Is
that really a team issue or isthere something deeper behind?
And then, maybe, just to startvery simple, start drawing.
Start drawing the actualcurrent team situation that you
have and then try to understandokay, is that something really
(35:54):
happening only inside of theteam or might there be something
bigger behind that I can tacklewith whomever is needed in
supporting me regarding thatissue, right?
So this is something where Iwould say start drawing and then
also understand that there isso much more happening inside
the organization and show howvaluable you are.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Fantastic advice.
Thank you, parjan.
Well, our listeners out there.
If they want to get in touchwith you, what's the best way
for them to do that?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Actually, everyone can find me on LinkedIn under my
name Pajamanguri, and that'swhere you can find me.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Great.
We'll leave a link to that inthe show notes to make it easy
for our listeners.
So, Parjan, thank you so much.
This has been a pleasure.
I really appreciate your timecoming on the show today thank
you so much, mark all right,everybody.
That brings an end to anotherepisode of the agile within.
We'll see you next time.
Thanks for joining us foranother episode of the agile
(36:55):
within.
If you haven't already, pleasejoin our LinkedIn page to stay
in touch.
Just search for the AgileWithin and please spread the
word with your friends andcolleagues Until next time.
This has been your host, MarkMetz.
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