January 29, 2025 • 45 mins
Michelle Pauk, a seasoned executive and leadership coach, returns to The Agile Within to share her transformative insights on positivity in the Agile world. Ever wondered how mindset shifts could powerfully change the way Agile professionals contribute to their field? Michelle argues that it’s less about proving your worth and more about making authentic contributions.
We navigate the fascinating link between neuroscience and personal well-being, examining how understanding brain chemistry can elevate our professional journeys. By drawing parallels with Agile methodologies, we shed light on how breaking down complex goals into bite-sized tasks, much like practicing daily gratitude, can enhance both contentment and productivity. In a world often caught in the chaos of corporate hustle, we champion a balanced approach that celebrates both triumphs and trials while steering clear of the pitfalls of toxic positivity.
The episode takes a heartfelt turn as we discuss resilience through positive choices, illustrating how small, mindful actions can lead to monumental changes in mindset. From the disillusionment of superficial Agile adoptions to the triumph of launching a consulting business after a layoff, personal stories punctuate the narrative, showcasing the tremendous growth that can sprout from setbacks. Join us as we celebrate the power of mindset in turning challenges into opportunities for both personal and professional growth.
Connect with Michelle on LinkedIn:
linkedin.com/in/michelle-pauk
Discover Michelle's offerings on the Streamside Coaching website:
https://www.streamsidecoaching.com/
Email Michelle:
michelle.pauk@gmail.com
Follow us on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-agile-within
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Mark (00:06):
Welcome to the Agile Within.
I am your host, mark Metz.
My mission for this podcast isto provide Agile insights into
human values and behaviorsthrough genuine connections.
My guests and I will sharereal-life stories from our Agile
journeys, triumphs, blundersand everything in between, as
(00:29):
well as the lessons that we havelearned.
So get pumped, get rocking.
The Agile Within starts now.
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(01:35):
That's impactagilityco.
Well, hey, everybody.
Welcome back to the AgileWithin.
Your host is always here, markMetz.
I have a guest today who's arepeat guest, and not just a
repeat guest, but a third timerepeat guest.
I think that's a record herefor the podcast.
I want to introduce herMichelle Park.
(01:57):
Michelle, welcome back.
Michelle (01:59):
Thank you, mark, I'm so happy to be here.
Mark (02:02):
Oh, great to have you back .
So I consider Michelle a friend.
I've used her as a professionalcoach and we've collaborated on
some things in the past whereI've used some of her material,
so I think very highly of her.
She's an executive and aleadership coach.
She's also a professionalcertified coach with the
International CoachingFederation, if you're familiar
(02:22):
with that.
So that's no small feat.
And she has her own companycalled Streamside Consulting,
and it's based out of Nashville,tennessee, michelle.
So I want to ask you, if mywife and I were coming to
Nashville Tennessee for a daywhich is on our list, because
it's not all that far fromColumbia, south Carolina, where
(02:43):
we live what's one thing thatMichelle would say that I
couldn't miss doing?
Michelle (02:49):
Well, this is a great question, mark, and I had to
think about it for just a minute.
But I would tell you and thisis kind of a niche thing so you
may not be interested, I don'tknow but I would tell you to go
to my favorite garden center,which is like on the south side.
So I live in Franklin, likejust south of Nashville, and
(03:10):
like when I get a chance I loveto go to this Hewitt Garden
Center.
They have like all thesebeautiful bonsai.
They have inside like orchidsand lovely little like
houseplants and tons of plantsfor outside.
I just I get lost over there.
I would tell you to go checkthat out, even if you didn't
have something you were shoppingfor, just to see all of the
(03:33):
lovely living green thingsaround, kind of tucked on the
side of the city there.
Mark (03:39):
So our listeners out here can't see, but as I'm looking at
Michelle and looking behind her, she's got some very nice
foliage and plants behind her.
Is that where those any ofthose came from?
Michelle (03:50):
Yep, yep, that Monstera that came from Hewitt
Garden Center.
I've got some air plants thatI've really neglected.
I keep trying and just failingwith those, but what you can't
see is outside of my office.
I've got a bonsai on my frontporch that did not come from
that place, but you know, I am aplant admirer and I like to
(04:13):
keep them around me as much aspossible.
Really neat.
Mark (04:16):
We'll put a link to that in the show notes if anybody's
interested.
So that's cool.
Thank you for sharing.
Yeah, absolutely that's cool.
Thank you for sharing.
Michelle (04:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mark (04:24):
So the title for our episode today is the Secret to
Making a Positive Impact and,michelle, I want to ask you,
first of all, what are wetalking about when we're talking
about making a positive impact,and why is that important?
Michelle (04:47):
Yeah, yeah.
So the genesis here is somethinking that I've been doing
over the last couple of years.
Now I actually put a post aboutthis time last year on this
topic of making a positiveimpact, and what I mean by that
is there's been a lot ofnegativity in the agile space in
the last year or two.
I think we've had a lot ofchallenges in the industry.
The job market has been reallytough.
(05:07):
I think now, as we're recordingthis in January 2025, people
are reeling from thisannouncement about PMI and the
Agile Alliance.
Mark (05:16):
This is the first I'm hearing of this.
I don't know what you'retalking about.
Michelle (05:21):
I know I read the email and then, like I just saw
LinkedIn explode all over itself.
Anyway, I think there's a lotof stuff out there that hasn't
been so focused on what goodpeople in the profession are
doing.
A little bit earlier in mycareer as an agile coach,
(05:45):
getting really overwhelmed bywhat I felt like were
non-success, so not making theimpact that I wanted to make,
not feeling like I was providingvalue, wondering how I could
prove things I think that a lotof this has to do with the
mindset with which we approachour work and that the things
that we choose to focus on andwhat we see has a major impact
(06:09):
on the actual value that wecreate.
So there's some like mindset,attitude, behavior, stuff that's
all wrapped into this that wecan explore, of course, today,
but the idea really being likelet's worry a little bit less
about proving it to other peopleand kind of focus on you know
where are the opportunities forus to show up and make a real
(06:30):
difference.
Mark (06:31):
I know people that have a chicken and egg sort of attitude
about this.
And they want to turn thescript, or flip the script, so
to speak, and be like well, thepositivity will come out,
followed by success, becausesuccess will prove that or will
produce that, and I think you'vegot a little bit different take
(06:52):
on that.
That might be true, but tell uswhat you think about the
reverse of that.
Michelle (06:56):
Yeah, yeah.
So I had done some learningabout positive psychology during
my coach training and countedsome really interesting ideas.
So there's some work out of alot of work out of the
University of Pennsylvania.
So Martin Seligman, who's thefounder of positive psychology,
has a lot to say about this.
(07:16):
There's also a really greatbook, happiness Advantage, by
Sean Aker, and he has this linein there that just stays like
happiness and optimism actuallyfuel performance and achievement
.
But all this research over thelast 20 years or so about what's
the correlation between beinghappy and being successful and
(07:37):
most people assume I will behappy when I am successful.
In fact the inverse is true.
So happier people actually seemore success, and that seems
kind of unfair.
If you're feeling miserable andlike you're not successful,
like come on, this is just acruel, cruel joke.
But the cool thing about it iswe can access, so we don't have
(08:01):
to access happiness throughsuccess.
That doesn't have to be theonly path.
Certainly, we do feel good whenwe achieve things, but there are
other ways of tapping into goodfeelings.
These good feelings kind ofchange some things in our brain
chemistry and so when we'refeeling good for any reason,
then we start to open up whatwe're seeing in our mind.
(08:25):
So the thing that I noticed inmy own application of this to
myself was when I started tofocus on activities and things
that made me feel good, my mindwas more open to seeing
possibilities, whereas before Imight have made some assumptions
about this isn't somethingthat's going to work, or this
person isn't interested in whatI have to offer and I started to
(08:49):
see some opportunities thatwere always there.
I just wasn't paying attentionto them before, when I was in
kind of down in the dumps.
So I don't know if that makessense.
Mark (08:55):
Yeah, you mentioned positive psychology and there's
probably some misconceptions outthere or just people who just
maybe don't understand.
You hear the word and youassume you know what it means,
but talk to us a little bitabout what positive psychology,
maybe what it is and what itisn't yeah, yeah.
Michelle (09:12):
So you know I certainly don't consider myself
an expert in this topic, but youknow my understanding of it's.
Like around 20 years ago or so,you know, martin seligman and
others noticed and pointed outlike, like, as a profession,
psychology had been focused somuch on things that were wrong
with people.
So you know, from a medicalkind of perspective of what's,
(09:34):
you know, how do we diagnoseabnormal psychology?
Or, you know, problems withanxiety or depression.
So the focus is all on, youknow, people being unwell,
treating folks who are unwelland getting them to a point of
kind of baseline wellness.
That is helpful and it'snecessary.
It's also not the completestory.
(09:54):
So if we look at like, if youthink about even just general
medicine, part of why you wouldgo to a doctor is if you're sick
.
You also go to a doctor forpreventative care.
So there's things that we cando to just encourage healthiness
and flourishing.
If we spend time on those kindof preventative measures, then
we have a lot less energy thathas to go into diagnosing,
(10:17):
curing and fixing.
And so you know, martin Solomonkind of made a call to the
psychology profession of couldwe spend some time maybe
thinking about what leads towell-being and what leads to
flourishing.
Could we study that with thesame level of intensity and
rigor as we study pathology andthings that are abnormal and
(10:38):
unhealthy?
And so from that has been a lotof research activity over the
last 20 years of like, what arethe things that lead to
flourishing in people, that leadto a feeling of, you know, to
well-being across multipledimensions, and how can we be
thoughtful about that instead ofjust treating it as accidental
(10:58):
or not paying attention to it?
So there is, you know,psychological research that goes
into all this stuff.
It's not just like wanderingaround and like saying positive
affirmations so, oh, that couldbe good, that can be good, but
that's not the full sum of thesethings.
And the other interesting thingthat has happened, I think,
over the last maybe decade or so, is tying this research into,
(11:22):
you know, the emerging field ofneuroscience.
So you know studies, brainstudies, brain imaging studies
to see, okay, what's happeningfrom a biochemistry perspective
in the brain when we're feelinggood or, you know, experiencing
flourishing.
So that gives a little bit of ayou know, biochemical basis for
some of this stuff.
I've had worked with someexecutives who are kind of
(11:43):
skeptical about, like the feelgood things until you feel like
oh, but here's the dopaminethat's being released in your
brain.
And then all of a sudden they'relike oh, okay, now I can
believe in this.
I don't know, it's kind ofinteresting to look into that.
Mark (12:00):
Yeah, yeah, it's one of the things that I try to focus
on is staying balanced, becausemost things in life and I talk
about this a lot, you know it'snot always black or it's not
always white.
It's somewhere in betweentoxically positive, and we're
(12:27):
totally shunning the areas thatwe can improve and like locking
that away under a safe andsaying, well, I'm not going to.
Really that's too harmful to meor that hurts too much.
I'm just going to focus only onthe positive aspects.
Michelle (12:37):
Yeah, yeah.
So I see it more as likechoosing, like with intention,
to notice things that are goingwell.
That doesn't mean ignoring allthe things that are difficult,
so just kind of accepting all ofit as part of part and parcel
of a normal career or a normallife.
There are things, there are ups, there are downs.
(12:59):
All of that can be used.
You know, depending on how welook at that.
Something that's difficult, wecan see something that may be
meaningful or significant aboutit.
That doesn't mean we have to becelebrating the fact that we're
suffering, but we can choose tosee something useful in that
and what it might bring us.
(13:20):
So just a very simple exampleto share that I've personally
found very helpful is thispractice of daily gratitude, so
common positive psychologypractice, then?
They've done research on this,like how does this affect
people's well-being, their sense, impact on depression or
anxiety, things like that Simpleexercise is just once a day or
(13:45):
however often feels good to you.
Write down three good thingsthat happened, or three things
that you are grateful for, andthey can be very small things,
so like.
I have a little notebook herewhere I write down, like here's
three good things, and some ofthem are like okay.
So like yesterday I wrote,having a sense of space in my
day was something I was gratefulfor preparing to share my book,
(14:07):
that I'm working, so I feltgood about that and then feeling
cozy in my sweater.
So these are not like, theydon't have to be huge
accomplishments, they don't haveto be massive things.
They can be very small things.
Massive things, it can be verysmall things.
And so I think to me like theconnection for agile
practitioners.
A lot of times we're seekingthis major, you know, cultural
(14:30):
transformation or some giantbreakthrough.
Just like we tell our teams,like, break it down into
something small.
We can do that with our ownsense of meaning that we're
driving from our job, from oursense of value that we're
getting, from what we'reoffering, the impact that we're
making on ourselves and otherpeople, and so that can be
reduced down to some fairlyatomic qualities.
(14:52):
And if you do this on a regularbasis, you start to notice,
you're training your attentionto notice these things that are
going well and these things thatare positive, and that opens up
more and more possibilities,because you're paying attention
to what's there instead ofignoring it or not giving it any
credit.
Mark (15:13):
You had a couple blog articles on this topic that I
read and I really found thosevery fascinating and really they
caused me to really look deepinside at me, because some of
the things that I saw youspecifically pointed out, I saw
in myself deep and thought hardenough about it.
(15:40):
I thought I can easily havetimes in my life where I would
say you know what, michelle,that's all good, but I'm a busy
guy, I don't have time to dothat.
Where am I going to find thetime to do that?
And what you talked about is,you know, as agile practitioners
, coaches what have you?
What do we preach to our teams?
It's like, when they come in,like, oh my gosh, we have this
huge year-long project that wehave to deliver this product in
(16:03):
a year.
How are we ever going to get itdone?
Well, you don't need anelephant all in one bite right.
Michelle (16:10):
Right, exactly, just, you break it down to something
small and I think the thing is,you know, a lot of times we
dismiss taking care of our ownwell-being or feeling good about
the work we're doing assomething that's nice to have,
something that, oh, we will getalong the way.
It's not something that we putintentional focus in, and what I
(16:32):
have noticed over the lastcouple of years is that when
I've paid, you know, made that atop priority, like thinking
about how am I feeling, how youknow working on, like showing up
with kind of genuine confidence, not like fake confidence, but
like feeling, feelingcomfortable and confident in
what I'm doing.
And that comes from a sense ofcontentment in my life in
(16:53):
general.
Like feeling balanced, likethings, things that, like things
that we see very commonly incorporate culture, where people
will just run from meeting tomeeting.
You spend five minutes in everymeeting hearing about how
somebody is late for thisbecause they haven't had a
chance to go to the bathroom orhave a snack or eat anything.
Think of how much time andenergy gets spent in this, like
(17:18):
you know, gnashing of teetharound, how unbalanced we are.
And OK, now contrast that withexperience, where you have
somebody who is fully rested,prepared and ready to like be
with you and focus on the taskat hand.
That's a very differentexperience and as I've moved
more and more of my work intoone-on-one coaching, I cannot
(17:40):
show up for a call with a clientin that kind of impact that
makes on the work that I'm doing.
So if we're thinking about thisin terms of you know what's the
(18:01):
relationship between how I amfeeling about you know, my life
in general or the you know justin my kind of presence, what is
the impact of that presence onthe people that you are serving?
And just kind of note, like trynoticing.
You know, usually when we'reall in that state we're so busy,
worried about whatever we'reworried about, that we don't
even pay attention to the impactthat makes on another person.
(18:24):
But even if you're looking atit, not from what impact you're
making on others, but just gothrough your day tomorrow and
look and you know, notice who'sshowing up calm and relaxed and
ready to work and who's spending10 minutes of your time talking
about how stressed and frazzledthey are.
We all do it.
I'm not trying to judge, butI'm just making a.
(18:46):
You know these are some choicesthat we can make and how we
show up, and they do make animpact on other people and our
ability to think creatively andbe collaborative, so this can
very quickly become a cycle,from a one-time occurrence to
getting in this cycle.
Mark (19:04):
In your article you had a term called a virtuous cycle
that I haven't heard before.
So tell us about a virtuouscycle.
What is that?
Michelle (19:13):
Yeah.
So a virtuous cycle is, likeyou know, the opposite of a
vicious cycle, like where onebad thing begets another.
In a virtuous cycle, we takeone good thing and that builds
on it.
So, you know, as we'rerecording this in January, many
people are in the.
You know your goal is to getfit in the new year.
(19:38):
Well, you're probably.
If you're going to be successfulin that, there's probably a set
of things that are stacking ontop of one another to help you
with that overall goal.
So it might be, oh well, I wantto exercise.
Well, in order to exercise, Ineed to be getting better rest
and I also need to be eatingbetter.
(19:59):
And so, you know, one goodchoice that you make, like maybe
it's to go to bed a little bitearlier the night before.
That allows you to get up earlyto do that workout and then,
because you did the workout, youfeel better, like you want to
eat something nutritious insteadof, you know, running by
McDonald's.
So the choices, like smallchoices that we make, can build
on one another, and that's whatI found as I was doing my own
(20:23):
personal experiments withpositive psychology, if I took
even five minutes in the morningto do something that made me
feel calm or happy or relaxed.
Then, when I went into thatfirst meeting, I could persist
that feeling, whereas if I didmy usual like for my whole life,
(20:44):
up until this point which wasto like roll into it the last
possible minute, or maybe havinglooked at an email or reading
the news and getting stressedand anxious about you know oh
how am I going to respond tothis person?
Or I can't believe this thinghappened.
That kind of frantic energy.
Bringing that into aconversation would mean I was
distracted, not paying attention.
(21:06):
I probably don't listen or careat the same level, and then I
might be short-tempered or havetrouble just even being curious
about someone's perspective.
So if I interrupted that cycleby doing something positive
first, then I'd feel good aboutmy morning.
Then I'd feel more spacious inmy day, be able to take time to
(21:29):
go for a walk or connect with afriend or do the things that
actually enrich one's life.
So these little, tinyadjustments that we make can
actually make a big impact interms of helping you do more of
the things that actually helpyou feel great about what you're
doing.
Mark (21:47):
Tell me if you agree.
I would think that practicing,whether it be doing something
you enjoy, whether it bepositive affirmations or just
something for you.
Michelle (21:58):
Yeah.
Mark (21:59):
Keeps you from getting to that irrational mindset.
And let me explain a little bitabout what I'm talking about,
because this is something that Iexperience is I can very easily
get into the doom and gloom.
Everything is bad, I don't havetime for anything, so I'm going
to shut everybody out and Ijust get.
Have time for anything, so I'mgoing to shut everybody out and
I just get a very negativemindset and that continues to
(22:21):
just and it's really gets to apoint where it is.
It defies rational thought andI've had somebody shake me up
before and like where is thiscoming from?
This is not, this isn't logical, and you kind of have to just
shake yourself out of it forjust a minute and step back and
say you know what?
You're right, I am beingirrational and this mindset is
(22:42):
just too much and I need to takesome time for myself and have a
different viewpoint.
Now.
Sometimes that's easier saidthan done, but I like what
you're saying about don't alwaysjust go to the doctor when you
have a problem.
Be proactive about it and let'sput a plan in place to keep you
healthy, not just go to whenyou're sick.
Michelle (23:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and I love how you're describing that
, marcus, like that kind of arational, because that is
usually what's at the core ofour distress is some exaggerated
thinking.
So psychologists will put thatunder.
They have different labels forit, like distorted thought or
(23:26):
thought distortions orirrational beliefs, but they're
so common and automatic thatwhen something bad happens, our
minds immediately go there andit requires some space to
foresee that thought for what itis, which is a thought, not
necessarily reality and thenmake a choice about what we want
(23:48):
to do with it.
Almost every one of us hasgotten a phone call at some
point in time from an unexpectedtime, like, oh, you get a call
from a family member at anunusual time of day.
Immediately, what pops in yourmind before you answer that call
(24:09):
?
You think who's in the hospital, who died, and it may be.
Oh, I was just running an errandand I had a couple extra
minutes, I thought I'd say hi,like, like.
Sometimes it is somethingcatastrophic, but but most of
the time it's not.
And so this tendency that wehave to like, go to the worst
(24:30):
case scenario, that's asomething that psychologists
call catastrophizing, and thatis a very natural thing that
people do.
The longer that that thoughtjust stays in your head,
uninterrupted by another person,some way of externalizing it,
the more you believe it and themore damage it can do.
So all of these things thatwe're talking about from
(24:53):
building that virtuous cycle,whether that's something that
creates positive emotions, tofinding something that gives you
a state of flow all of thosepositive things will interrupt
that kind of thinking or takesome of the poison out of it.
And talking with other peoplelike you shared, mark, having
(25:15):
somebody else say else, say like, hold on a minute, like that's.
That's one of the things thatthey've shown in the positive
psychology research is that youknow other people, relationships
with other people, is thesingle greatest up when we're
feeling down, and that you know,if we have blows that we suffer
in our lives, having otherpeople around is the thing that
insulates us from from the worsteffects of that.
(25:36):
So you know, phone a friend,individuals and interactions
that's what we always talk about, right?
Mark (25:41):
That's right.
That's right.
What about the case of whereyou're having to whether it be
work with or, just you know,maybe taking it out of a work
perspective?
You know, we definitely havethat to talk about and that's
probably what many of ourlisteners.
But outside of that, what ifyou like?
I'm just trying to think, whatif you have a neighbor that you
(26:03):
see all the time and they justhave this negative view on life
and you're like boy, this isjust really.
No matter how positive I try toseem to be, the conversation
turns negative.
What advice do you have in thatsort of a scenario?
Michelle (26:20):
Well, I guess my advice would be the only people
whose thoughts or behavior wecontrol is our own.
So you know, there are peoplewho have all ranging kinds of
ways of approaching the worldand you know, good, bad and
different doesn't really matter.
So you know, there's actuallysome sort of depressing but like
(26:41):
some research that shows thatyou have a genetic
predisposition to how, likesunny, your outlook is on things
Like there's just there's kindof a fixed point where you know
you can do some stuff but, likein general, you may not be like
an overly optimistic, sunnyperson and some of that may be
your genetics.
So you know, feeling bad aboutit isn't going to help.
(27:05):
But you know, when you'reencountering people who are like
you experience as difficult orjust you know, don't they don't
lift your spirits.
I guess you know my thought.
There is well, okay.
So I may not never be able toinfluence that person's
perspective or outlook on things.
I can choose how they affect me.
(27:26):
So I can either walk away fromthat feeling like oh, that was a
real downer, or I could chooseto engage with that person and
be like, well, you know, Iapproached that person, you're
trying to understand theirperspective, or I was kind or I
listened, and you know that maybe.
You may not be able to changetheir perspective at all, but
(27:48):
you can change how interactingwith them affects you, just by
how you choose to think about it.
Mark (27:52):
What would you say if somebody told you like I can be
supportive for a certain amountof time or to a certain level,
and then I just need to take abreak?
Michelle (28:01):
after that, go and take a break.
Go and take a break.
Yeah, I mean, the people thatwe choose to be around has a big
impact on our mood and you knowhow we feel feel.
So you know being intentionalabout the relationships and the
connections that lift you up.
I think you know it'sunrealistic to believe that you
(28:22):
can only interact with peoplewho you have a great time with.
Especially if you work at acompany, you're going to have
some people who aren't yourfavorite and that's.
That's okay, you know.
But just be careful about whereyou put your energy.
So I think a lot of times,especially as agile coaches, we
(28:43):
might get fixated on like, oh,here's the one person on the
team who is resisting what Ihave to offer, or thinks agile
or scrum is a crack and theywant nothing to do with it.
Why would we choose to spendall of our time focused on that
individual instead of focused onthe people who are interested
and are getting value?
Like we can train our mind tolook for the negative things and
(29:07):
focus on them, or we can trainour mind to look for all the
positives.
So if you're feeling like, oh,I'm not being successful with
this team because I have thisone person who's not buying in.
Well, that probably means youhave maybe six or seven other
people who are seeing value.
Mark (29:31):
Let's maybe put our attention over there instead of
on the one who's giving us someheartburn.
So I'm thinking about thebalance aspect of this too,
because one of the things yousaid is maybe understand where
they're coming from or theirperspective.
One could take from thatstrategy of oh well, I'm just
going to kind of excommunicatethem and I'm just going to block
them from all my communicationand problem solved right, I just
won't even listen to thatperson.
(29:52):
But what is that going to?
I think that's going to promotemore negative vibes or negative
energy more so.
So maybe take a chance or takesome time to get into you know,
I wonder really what the pointof view is from this person.
Why are they feel?
Is there a story behind?
Yeah, I don't know about, butthat doesn't mean you have to
(30:13):
spend 40 hours a week on it.
That doesn't mean you have tospend 40 hours a week on it.
If you get an answer that'slike, okay, that's who they are
and they're not going to change,then there's nothing I can do
about it.
But at least I've given themthe respect to hear them out.
Michelle (30:29):
Right.
Right, I think in doing that,the key is separating your
experience from what theirexperience is, separating your
experience from what theirexperience is.
So, just because they don'tenjoy what's happening, or like,
you don't have to assume thatemotionally, like you don't have
to take that on emotionally asyour job to fix that, your job
(30:50):
to do anything about it, yourjob to judge it.
It is probably beneficial totry to understand it, but that
doesn't mean you have to doanything with it.
And so that I think creating alittle bit of space, like
realizing this person, like hasno control over my wellbeing or
how I'm enjoying my job, like Iam choosing that if I choose to
(31:12):
like let someone's negativeenergy make me have a bad day,
that is a choice I am making.
Like I can pay attention tothis one nasty thing somebody
said in the meeting, or I canpay attention to all the rest of
the day.
That went perfectly fine.
That is a choice.
But you know, to your point,like I would never recommend
(31:33):
like completely, unless you'rein some kind of like abusive
situation like that.
Of course, you know I say theword never, I don't mean the
word never, but for the mostpart, most of the things that
we're encountering are justdifferences of preferences and
personality and we don't, youknow.
Getting everyone to go along, Ithink, is unrealistic and it
(31:54):
just sets us up for frustration.
So if we can just learn toappreciate that there are
differences and not assumeresponsibility for them
emotionally, I think that setsus up for better success in this
kind of work.
Mark (32:05):
Maybe I'm getting a little personal here, but do you
happen to have a story that youcould tell us from your point of
view, getting into Michelle'sworld, of where this made a
difference in you, where youwere maybe not the most positive
person in the world and thingswere not looking good, but you
made a decision to start using apositive nature and seeing that
(32:31):
truly have an outcome?
Do you have an experience thatyou could share with our
listeners and with me?
Michelle (32:37):
Absolutely, absolutely , yeah.
So a few years ago I wascoaching at a large company,
part of a large transformation,and I had been at another large
company doing another largetransformation.
I was seeing some of the samepatterns that I found personally
very frustrating.
It's like, oh, we're goingthrough the motions, we're
(32:59):
working with all these teams andeverybody's still stressed
there's very little of what Ifelt like was the point of Agile
.
There were all the symptoms andtrappings of Agile, but I felt
like we were really missing whatthe real value was.
I got pretty depressed about itand I started I call it losing
(33:22):
my religion phase, because I wasjust like is it even possible
to bring these kinds of ideas toa very large, bureaucratic old
company and make any kind ofdifference?
Large, bureaucratic, oldcompany and make any kind of
difference?
And I started to conclude likeit was all pointless and that
there just wasn't any point.
So I spent some time wallowingin that During that time, of
(33:44):
course, I had different teams orthings I was working with.
I didn't count them as like oh,that wasn't a valuable
experience, I didn't offeranything.
You know, I felt like I'd haveideas and then I convinced
myself oh, no one's going tosupport this or I'm going to be
shot down.
And so, you know, I kind of Ithink I hit like some sort of
(34:05):
rock bottom about it and justrealized like, well, maybe I
can't change this situation,like I was in a position where I
didn't want to change companiesand also I had done that before
and it didn't like my feelingabout it.
And so I'm like, okay, I'mreally out of options here.
Maybe there's something to someof this positive psychology
(34:26):
stuff.
So I started doing my ownlittle experiments and just
really focusing on my mindset.
Maybe six months after I'dreally put my focus there on
like, am I enjoying what I'mdoing during the day?
Am I taking the time to bethoughtful, like to do all the
things that I need to kind ofrecharge my batteries throughout
(34:46):
the day, I got an email from anSBP at the company about
helping his leadership team withinstalling this framework that
he'd heard about, and so theyhad just gone through a
transformation for their500-person part of the
organization and they were like,oh hey, as leaders we haven't
(35:07):
done this ourselves.
Maybe we ought to transform ourown leadership team to support,
better support, the rest of ourorganization.
And so you know at first.
If I had gotten that email, likeeven you know, six months
before, I would have been likeoh he's asking for this thing.
I don't have any experiencewith that.
(35:27):
Plus, this is a senior levelleader.
I'm sure all they care about islike just squeezing more work
out of people.
Like I don't want any part ofthat, like I would have found
reasons to say no, pass it offto somebody else, or just
entered that conversationassuming that nothing good would
come out of it.
Instead, I remember like havinga moment like where I thought
(35:48):
about that and then I was likewait a minute, why don't I just
see what they want.
Like, why don't I just, likehere, have a conversation, hear
what's important to them, andthen you know I can offer them
what I can offer them.
And so we did have thatconversation and I shared you
know, here's my perspective onthis.
I think a lot of work at theleadership team level is about
(36:11):
culture and attitudes andbehaviors.
These are things that I'minterested in and can help you
with.
What do you think?
And they said sure.
And so then after that I workedwith that leadership team.
We did something that was myapproach that I came up with
myself so doing one-on-onecoaching with the leaders, doing
a team assessment and aworkshop to help them figure out
(36:34):
from an appreciative standpoint.
So this is again like positiveappreciating what's already
there, what are you alreadydoing?
That's agile, and so from thatwe noticed a lot of things that
they were already doing well.
Then we found a couple of smalltweaks to make that would
improve their effectiveness.
As an agile leadership team hadan amazing time with these guys
(36:54):
and it was probably I mean it'slike a highlight of my coaching
career.
So in the blog post that youmentioned, mark, I said
something around like you know,people are really worried about
getting laid off and like, oh,you don't need to worry about
this if you like, stop worrying.
And the interesting part that'snot in the blog post is that.
(37:17):
So after you know I'd done thiswork with this team, my company
then went through a change totheir remote work policy.
So I've been hired during COVIDas a remote worker.
They said, okay, you're goingto have to relocate to another
city with an office or take apackage.
So I got laid off.
That ended up being the mostamazing thing for my career.
(37:39):
So it launched.
It gave me the space to launchmy own coaching consulting
business.
And that team that I'd workedwith, that leadership team, I
had a consulting engagement withthem.
After kind of my initialseverance period, I went back to
work with them as a consultant.
So for the last six months I'vebeen working with them again.
(38:00):
So these things you know likeif any of these things around
mindset, if I've been feelinglike bad about what I had to
offer, not looking for theopportunity there, all of those
could be different.
You know blows, but there'sopportunity in all of it.
(38:20):
So, even getting laid, out forme ended up being the most
amazing thing that happened lastyear, and you know so.
I think there's a lot of not toget overly emphasizing what I
know can be a really, reallydifficult time for people.
But you know I'm grateful forthe time that I'd spent focusing
on you know how I was showingup, because that has helped me
kind of navigate through, youknow, some difficult,
(38:41):
potentially difficult spacessince then.
Mark (38:45):
So I think everybody can agree.
I mean it's we don't live inDisneyland, we're not always
going to have a happy ending.
But I have a very similar storythat I'll share, because we're
running low on time to a time inmy life, and that was when I
was making the transition frombeing a developer to being a
manager, and I wanted to justdip my toes in that, because my
dad always told me you need toprobably scratch that itch at
(39:09):
some point to see if it's whatyou want to do and if it's not
great.
But you don't want to get tothe, to the end of your career
and say, boy, I wish I wouldhave given it a shot.
And so I had a recruiter callme and say hey, mark, I've got
this position for this, for thisdeveloper job that think you'd
be great for we also have amanagement position for the
development org, if you knowanybody that's interested.
(39:31):
You know, if I didn't have apositive mindset about it, I
would have just been like, oh,woe is me, I'll never get a shot
, nobody will ever give me achance.
But I said, well, hey, I'd beinterested in the management
position.
So she said okay, sure, let mepresent you and within the same
day she calls back hey, mark,talked with the client.
They said that you don't haveany experience being a manager,
(39:54):
so you're out for that, but theyreally would like to bring you
in as a developer.
And I said can you just give mea shot, because I think I can
sell them on it?
I think I have the attributesand if you just give me that
chance, I think I can prove them.
She was like you know, I'm kindof sticking my neck out on a
line because I'm a recruiter andI'm supposed to give the client
(40:15):
what they're looking for.
But I'll give you that chance.
And ultimately they did, and Imust have said something right
because I did get the position.
But if I would have been inthat negative mindset of just
nobody's ever going to give me ashot you know, until I get the
experience, who's going to giveme the experience I would have
never, never gone for it.
(40:37):
And, like I say, that's not,that's not to say that it's
always going to work out thatway, but you have a zero percent
chance of it happening if youdon't, if you don't try to make
it happen.
Michelle (40:47):
That's.
That's right, exactly so.
If you, if you don't believe inwhat you have to offer, who
else will believe in it?
Believe in what you have tooffer, who else will believe in
it?
And I love you sharing thatstory, mark, because that to me
is like kind of at the heart ofit.
Even just seeing theopportunity there, recognizing
that it's something that youcould try, and then being okay
(41:07):
to go with whatever happensafter that Like you got rejected
by the recruiter that didn'tstop you from going and saying,
well, give me a try.
And I think that's the heart ofa lot of this kind of thinking
is that even when we have thosesetbacks, they give us an
opportunity to learn something,to try to expand our courage at
(41:29):
the very least.
Even if it's just okay, well, Idid something courageous.
It may not have had the resultthat I wanted, but that kind of
action, if we take that on acontinuous basis, that's the
thing that pushes us forward.
So, yeah, I think that's reallycool to hear that from you.
I hope that inspires people totake that brave step in favor of
(41:52):
themselves, because that'swhere it all starts.
Mark (41:56):
I do want to give an opportunity for you to share if
our listeners out there want toget in touch with you either,
just if they have questions, I'msure, about some of this
content.
I know you well enough to knowyou're very warm and open to
having a dialogue, having aconversation.
But well, let's start off withthat.
First of all, how can peopleget in touch with you?
Michelle (42:15):
Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn my profile.
I'm sure we can probably put alink or something in the notes.
You can also reach me atmichelleatstreamsidecoachingcom.
That's my website or my emailfor my business.
Happy to talk with anyone who'scurious about some of the ideas
(42:36):
that we talked about here orwould like to call me out on
something.
I'm glad to have thatconversation too.
But, yeah, I've got some thingsthat are coming up that I'm
excited to share with theaudience.
Mark, I'm working on a new groupprogram on.
It's going to be calledLeadership Essentials for
(42:56):
Transformational Change.
So if you are an agile coach, ascrum master, if you're a
project manager or somebody whois trying to change something or
lead something that involvessome kind of human behavior
change in order to makesomething happen, especially if
you're at the middle of anorganization you're maybe not
(43:18):
we're not CEOs you're able tojust kind of put out a decree
and then hope that everyone goesalong with it.
This program is designed forchange agents at those levels,
helping you get the influenceskills, the conversational and
dialogue skills that can movethings forward in a respectful
and effective way.
So that's going to be coming upin February.
(43:40):
So if that piques your interest, please find some time with me.
You can reach out to me onLinkedIn or you can book time
directly through my website,which is
wwwstreamsidecoachingcom, so I'dlove to talk with folks about
that if that's interesting tothem.
Mark (43:56):
Great.
We will definitely put allthose links in the show notes.
And I'll just say, michelle,having employed you as a
professional coach on a personalbasis and also sitting through
some of your offerings thatyou've had, I can't say anything
but very positive, glowingthings.
So if you do sign up forsomething with Michelle, I have
(44:17):
no doubt whatsoever, I'm fullyconvinced and confident that you
will find value in it, becauseshe does such a great job and is
very empathetic.
There you go For what that'sworth, or maybe what it's not
worth, michelle.
Michelle (44:29):
That means a lot.
Your endorsement means a lot tome.
So thank you, Mark.
I really appreciate that.
Mark (44:35):
Well, michelle, thanks for coming on the show.
It's been a pleasure again,glad to have you.
Michelle (44:40):
Oh pleasure, the pleasure was mine.
Thank you, Mark.
I really appreciate theinvitation, the opportunity to
share.
Mark (44:46):
Great, All right, everybody.
That brings it into anotherepisode of the Agile Within.
We'll see everybody next time.
Thanks for joining us foranother episode of the agile
within.
If you haven't already, pleasejoin our LinkedIn page to stay
in touch.
Just search for the agilewithin and please spread the
(45:10):
word with your friends andcolleagues until next time.
This has been your host, MarkMetz.
Welcome to the Agile Within.
I am your host, mark Metz.
My mission for this podcast isto provide Agile insights into
human values and behaviorsthrough genuine connections.
My guests and I will sharereal-life stories from our Agile
journeys, triumphs, blundersand everything in between, as
(00:29):
well as the lessons that we havelearned.
So get pumped, get rocking.
The Agile Within starts now.
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Impact Agility specializes intraining and coaching through
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That's impactagilityco.
Well, hey, everybody.
Welcome back to the AgileWithin.
Your host is always here, markMetz.
I have a guest today who's arepeat guest, and not just a
repeat guest, but a third timerepeat guest.
I think that's a record herefor the podcast.
I want to introduce herMichelle Park.
(01:57):
Michelle, welcome back.
Michelle (01:59):
Thank you, mark, I'm so happy to be here.
Mark (02:02):
Oh, great to have you back .
So I consider Michelle a friend.
I've used her as a professionalcoach and we've collaborated on
some things in the past whereI've used some of her material,
so I think very highly of her.
She's an executive and aleadership coach.
She's also a professionalcertified coach with the
International CoachingFederation, if you're familiar
(02:22):
with that.
So that's no small feat.
And she has her own companycalled Streamside Consulting,
and it's based out of Nashville,tennessee, michelle.
So I want to ask you, if mywife and I were coming to
Nashville Tennessee for a daywhich is on our list, because
it's not all that far fromColumbia, south Carolina, where
(02:43):
we live what's one thing thatMichelle would say that I
couldn't miss doing?
Michelle (02:49):
Well, this is a great question, mark, and I had to
think about it for just a minute.
But I would tell you and thisis kind of a niche thing so you
may not be interested, I don'tknow but I would tell you to go
to my favorite garden center,which is like on the south side.
So I live in Franklin, likejust south of Nashville, and
(03:10):
like when I get a chance I loveto go to this Hewitt Garden
Center.
They have like all thesebeautiful bonsai.
They have inside like orchidsand lovely little like
houseplants and tons of plantsfor outside.
I just I get lost over there.
I would tell you to go checkthat out, even if you didn't
have something you were shoppingfor, just to see all of the
(03:33):
lovely living green thingsaround, kind of tucked on the
side of the city there.
Mark (03:39):
So our listeners out here can't see, but as I'm looking at
Michelle and looking behind her, she's got some very nice
foliage and plants behind her.
Is that where those any ofthose came from?
Michelle (03:50):
Yep, yep, that Monstera that came from Hewitt
Garden Center.
I've got some air plants thatI've really neglected.
I keep trying and just failingwith those, but what you can't
see is outside of my office.
I've got a bonsai on my frontporch that did not come from
that place, but you know, I am aplant admirer and I like to
(04:13):
keep them around me as much aspossible.
Really neat.
Mark (04:16):
We'll put a link to that in the show notes if anybody's
interested.
So that's cool.
Thank you for sharing.
Yeah, absolutely that's cool.
Thank you for sharing.
Michelle (04:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mark (04:24):
So the title for our episode today is the Secret to
Making a Positive Impact and,michelle, I want to ask you,
first of all, what are wetalking about when we're talking
about making a positive impact,and why is that important?
Michelle (04:47):
Yeah, yeah.
So the genesis here is somethinking that I've been doing
over the last couple of years.
Now I actually put a post aboutthis time last year on this
topic of making a positiveimpact, and what I mean by that
is there's been a lot ofnegativity in the agile space in
the last year or two.
I think we've had a lot ofchallenges in the industry.
The job market has been reallytough.
(05:07):
I think now, as we're recordingthis in January 2025, people
are reeling from thisannouncement about PMI and the
Agile Alliance.
Mark (05:16):
This is the first I'm hearing of this.
I don't know what you'retalking about.
Michelle (05:21):
I know I read the email and then, like I just saw
LinkedIn explode all over itself.
Anyway, I think there's a lotof stuff out there that hasn't
been so focused on what goodpeople in the profession are
doing.
A little bit earlier in mycareer as an agile coach,
(05:45):
getting really overwhelmed bywhat I felt like were
non-success, so not making theimpact that I wanted to make,
not feeling like I was providingvalue, wondering how I could
prove things I think that a lotof this has to do with the
mindset with which we approachour work and that the things
that we choose to focus on andwhat we see has a major impact
(06:09):
on the actual value that wecreate.
So there's some like mindset,attitude, behavior, stuff that's
all wrapped into this that wecan explore, of course, today,
but the idea really being likelet's worry a little bit less
about proving it to other peopleand kind of focus on you know
where are the opportunities forus to show up and make a real
(06:30):
difference.
Mark (06:31):
I know people that have a chicken and egg sort of attitude
about this.
And they want to turn thescript, or flip the script, so
to speak, and be like well, thepositivity will come out,
followed by success, becausesuccess will prove that or will
produce that, and I think you'vegot a little bit different take
(06:52):
on that.
That might be true, but tell uswhat you think about the
reverse of that.
Michelle (06:56):
Yeah, yeah.
So I had done some learningabout positive psychology during
my coach training and countedsome really interesting ideas.
So there's some work out of alot of work out of the
University of Pennsylvania.
So Martin Seligman, who's thefounder of positive psychology,
has a lot to say about this.
(07:16):
There's also a really greatbook, happiness Advantage, by
Sean Aker, and he has this linein there that just stays like
happiness and optimism actuallyfuel performance and achievement
.
But all this research over thelast 20 years or so about what's
the correlation between beinghappy and being successful and
(07:37):
most people assume I will behappy when I am successful.
In fact the inverse is true.
So happier people actually seemore success, and that seems
kind of unfair.
If you're feeling miserable andlike you're not successful,
like come on, this is just acruel, cruel joke.
But the cool thing about it iswe can access, so we don't have
(08:01):
to access happiness throughsuccess.
That doesn't have to be theonly path.
Certainly, we do feel good whenwe achieve things, but there are
other ways of tapping into goodfeelings.
These good feelings kind ofchange some things in our brain
chemistry and so when we'refeeling good for any reason,
then we start to open up whatwe're seeing in our mind.
(08:25):
So the thing that I noticed inmy own application of this to
myself was when I started tofocus on activities and things
that made me feel good, my mindwas more open to seeing
possibilities, whereas before Imight have made some assumptions
about this isn't somethingthat's going to work, or this
person isn't interested in whatI have to offer and I started to
(08:49):
see some opportunities thatwere always there.
I just wasn't paying attentionto them before, when I was in
kind of down in the dumps.
So I don't know if that makessense.
Mark (08:55):
Yeah, you mentioned positive psychology and there's
probably some misconceptions outthere or just people who just
maybe don't understand.
You hear the word and youassume you know what it means,
but talk to us a little bitabout what positive psychology,
maybe what it is and what itisn't yeah, yeah.
Michelle (09:12):
So you know I certainly don't consider myself
an expert in this topic, but youknow my understanding of it's.
Like around 20 years ago or so,you know, martin seligman and
others noticed and pointed outlike, like, as a profession,
psychology had been focused somuch on things that were wrong
with people.
So you know, from a medicalkind of perspective of what's,
(09:34):
you know, how do we diagnoseabnormal psychology?
Or, you know, problems withanxiety or depression.
So the focus is all on, youknow, people being unwell,
treating folks who are unwelland getting them to a point of
kind of baseline wellness.
That is helpful and it'snecessary.
It's also not the completestory.
(09:54):
So if we look at like, if youthink about even just general
medicine, part of why you wouldgo to a doctor is if you're sick
.
You also go to a doctor forpreventative care.
So there's things that we cando to just encourage healthiness
and flourishing.
If we spend time on those kindof preventative measures, then
we have a lot less energy thathas to go into diagnosing,
(10:17):
curing and fixing.
And so you know, martin Solomonkind of made a call to the
psychology profession of couldwe spend some time maybe
thinking about what leads towell-being and what leads to
flourishing.
Could we study that with thesame level of intensity and
rigor as we study pathology andthings that are abnormal and
(10:38):
unhealthy?
And so from that has been a lotof research activity over the
last 20 years of like, what arethe things that lead to
flourishing in people, that leadto a feeling of, you know, to
well-being across multipledimensions, and how can we be
thoughtful about that instead ofjust treating it as accidental
(10:58):
or not paying attention to it?
So there is, you know,psychological research that goes
into all this stuff.
It's not just like wanderingaround and like saying positive
affirmations so, oh, that couldbe good, that can be good, but
that's not the full sum of thesethings.
And the other interesting thingthat has happened, I think,
over the last maybe decade or so, is tying this research into,
(11:22):
you know, the emerging field ofneuroscience.
So you know studies, brainstudies, brain imaging studies
to see, okay, what's happeningfrom a biochemistry perspective
in the brain when we're feelinggood or, you know, experiencing
flourishing.
So that gives a little bit of ayou know, biochemical basis for
some of this stuff.
I've had worked with someexecutives who are kind of
(11:43):
skeptical about, like the feelgood things until you feel like
oh, but here's the dopaminethat's being released in your
brain.
And then all of a sudden they'relike oh, okay, now I can
believe in this.
I don't know, it's kind ofinteresting to look into that.
Mark (12:00):
Yeah, yeah, it's one of the things that I try to focus
on is staying balanced, becausemost things in life and I talk
about this a lot, you know it'snot always black or it's not
always white.
It's somewhere in betweentoxically positive, and we're
(12:27):
totally shunning the areas thatwe can improve and like locking
that away under a safe andsaying, well, I'm not going to.
Really that's too harmful to meor that hurts too much.
I'm just going to focus only onthe positive aspects.
Michelle (12:37):
Yeah, yeah.
So I see it more as likechoosing, like with intention,
to notice things that are goingwell.
That doesn't mean ignoring allthe things that are difficult,
so just kind of accepting all ofit as part of part and parcel
of a normal career or a normallife.
There are things, there are ups, there are downs.
(12:59):
All of that can be used.
You know, depending on how welook at that.
Something that's difficult, wecan see something that may be
meaningful or significant aboutit.
That doesn't mean we have to becelebrating the fact that we're
suffering, but we can choose tosee something useful in that
and what it might bring us.
(13:20):
So just a very simple exampleto share that I've personally
found very helpful is thispractice of daily gratitude, so
common positive psychologypractice, then?
They've done research on this,like how does this affect
people's well-being, their sense, impact on depression or
anxiety, things like that Simpleexercise is just once a day or
(13:45):
however often feels good to you.
Write down three good thingsthat happened, or three things
that you are grateful for, andthey can be very small things,
so like.
I have a little notebook herewhere I write down, like here's
three good things, and some ofthem are like okay.
So like yesterday I wrote,having a sense of space in my
day was something I was gratefulfor preparing to share my book,
(14:07):
that I'm working, so I feltgood about that and then feeling
cozy in my sweater.
So these are not like, theydon't have to be huge
accomplishments, they don't haveto be massive things.
They can be very small things.
Massive things, it can be verysmall things.
And so I think to me like theconnection for agile
practitioners.
A lot of times we're seekingthis major, you know, cultural
(14:30):
transformation or some giantbreakthrough.
Just like we tell our teams,like, break it down into
something small.
We can do that with our ownsense of meaning that we're
driving from our job, from oursense of value that we're
getting, from what we'reoffering, the impact that we're
making on ourselves and otherpeople, and so that can be
reduced down to some fairlyatomic qualities.
(14:52):
And if you do this on a regularbasis, you start to notice,
you're training your attentionto notice these things that are
going well and these things thatare positive, and that opens up
more and more possibilities,because you're paying attention
to what's there instead ofignoring it or not giving it any
credit.
Mark (15:13):
You had a couple blog articles on this topic that I
read and I really found thosevery fascinating and really they
caused me to really look deepinside at me, because some of
the things that I saw youspecifically pointed out, I saw
in myself deep and thought hardenough about it.
(15:40):
I thought I can easily havetimes in my life where I would
say you know what, michelle,that's all good, but I'm a busy
guy, I don't have time to dothat.
Where am I going to find thetime to do that?
And what you talked about is,you know, as agile practitioners
, coaches what have you?
What do we preach to our teams?
It's like, when they come in,like, oh my gosh, we have this
huge year-long project that wehave to deliver this product in
(16:03):
a year.
How are we ever going to get itdone?
Well, you don't need anelephant all in one bite right.
Michelle (16:10):
Right, exactly, just, you break it down to something
small and I think the thing is,you know, a lot of times we
dismiss taking care of our ownwell-being or feeling good about
the work we're doing assomething that's nice to have,
something that, oh, we will getalong the way.
It's not something that we putintentional focus in, and what I
(16:32):
have noticed over the lastcouple of years is that when
I've paid, you know, made that atop priority, like thinking
about how am I feeling, how youknow working on, like showing up
with kind of genuine confidence, not like fake confidence, but
like feeling, feelingcomfortable and confident in
what I'm doing.
And that comes from a sense ofcontentment in my life in
(16:53):
general.
Like feeling balanced, likethings, things that, like things
that we see very commonly incorporate culture, where people
will just run from meeting tomeeting.
You spend five minutes in everymeeting hearing about how
somebody is late for thisbecause they haven't had a
chance to go to the bathroom orhave a snack or eat anything.
Think of how much time andenergy gets spent in this, like
(17:18):
you know, gnashing of teetharound, how unbalanced we are.
And OK, now contrast that withexperience, where you have
somebody who is fully rested,prepared and ready to like be
with you and focus on the taskat hand.
That's a very differentexperience and as I've moved
more and more of my work intoone-on-one coaching, I cannot
(17:40):
show up for a call with a clientin that kind of impact that
makes on the work that I'm doing.
So if we're thinking about thisin terms of you know what's the
(18:01):
relationship between how I amfeeling about you know, my life
in general or the you know justin my kind of presence, what is
the impact of that presence onthe people that you are serving?
And just kind of note, like trynoticing.
You know, usually when we'reall in that state we're so busy,
worried about whatever we'reworried about, that we don't
even pay attention to the impactthat makes on another person.
(18:24):
But even if you're looking atit, not from what impact you're
making on others, but just gothrough your day tomorrow and
look and you know, notice who'sshowing up calm and relaxed and
ready to work and who's spending10 minutes of your time talking
about how stressed and frazzledthey are.
We all do it.
I'm not trying to judge, butI'm just making a.
(18:46):
You know these are some choicesthat we can make and how we
show up, and they do make animpact on other people and our
ability to think creatively andbe collaborative, so this can
very quickly become a cycle,from a one-time occurrence to
getting in this cycle.
Mark (19:04):
In your article you had a term called a virtuous cycle
that I haven't heard before.
So tell us about a virtuouscycle.
What is that?
Michelle (19:13):
Yeah.
So a virtuous cycle is, likeyou know, the opposite of a
vicious cycle, like where onebad thing begets another.
In a virtuous cycle, we takeone good thing and that builds
on it.
So, you know, as we'rerecording this in January, many
people are in the.
You know your goal is to getfit in the new year.
(19:38):
Well, you're probably.
If you're going to be successfulin that, there's probably a set
of things that are stacking ontop of one another to help you
with that overall goal.
So it might be, oh well, I wantto exercise.
Well, in order to exercise, Ineed to be getting better rest
and I also need to be eatingbetter.
(19:59):
And so, you know, one goodchoice that you make, like maybe
it's to go to bed a little bitearlier the night before.
That allows you to get up earlyto do that workout and then,
because you did the workout, youfeel better, like you want to
eat something nutritious insteadof, you know, running by
McDonald's.
So the choices, like smallchoices that we make, can build
on one another, and that's whatI found as I was doing my own
(20:23):
personal experiments withpositive psychology, if I took
even five minutes in the morningto do something that made me
feel calm or happy or relaxed.
Then, when I went into thatfirst meeting, I could persist
that feeling, whereas if I didmy usual like for my whole life,
(20:44):
up until this point which wasto like roll into it the last
possible minute, or maybe havinglooked at an email or reading
the news and getting stressedand anxious about you know oh
how am I going to respond tothis person?
Or I can't believe this thinghappened.
That kind of frantic energy.
Bringing that into aconversation would mean I was
distracted, not paying attention.
(21:06):
I probably don't listen or careat the same level, and then I
might be short-tempered or havetrouble just even being curious
about someone's perspective.
So if I interrupted that cycleby doing something positive
first, then I'd feel good aboutmy morning.
Then I'd feel more spacious inmy day, be able to take time to
(21:29):
go for a walk or connect with afriend or do the things that
actually enrich one's life.
So these little, tinyadjustments that we make can
actually make a big impact interms of helping you do more of
the things that actually helpyou feel great about what you're
doing.
Mark (21:47):
Tell me if you agree.
I would think that practicing,whether it be doing something
you enjoy, whether it bepositive affirmations or just
something for you.
Michelle (21:58):
Yeah.
Mark (21:59):
Keeps you from getting to that irrational mindset.
And let me explain a little bitabout what I'm talking about,
because this is something that Iexperience is I can very easily
get into the doom and gloom.
Everything is bad, I don't havetime for anything, so I'm going
to shut everybody out and Ijust get.
Have time for anything, so I'mgoing to shut everybody out and
I just get a very negativemindset and that continues to
(22:21):
just and it's really gets to apoint where it is.
It defies rational thought andI've had somebody shake me up
before and like where is thiscoming from?
This is not, this isn't logical, and you kind of have to just
shake yourself out of it forjust a minute and step back and
say you know what?
You're right, I am beingirrational and this mindset is
(22:42):
just too much and I need to takesome time for myself and have a
different viewpoint.
Now.
Sometimes that's easier saidthan done, but I like what
you're saying about don't alwaysjust go to the doctor when you
have a problem.
Be proactive about it and let'sput a plan in place to keep you
healthy, not just go to whenyou're sick.
Michelle (23:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and I love how you're describing that
, marcus, like that kind of arational, because that is
usually what's at the core ofour distress is some exaggerated
thinking.
So psychologists will put thatunder.
They have different labels forit, like distorted thought or
(23:26):
thought distortions orirrational beliefs, but they're
so common and automatic thatwhen something bad happens, our
minds immediately go there andit requires some space to
foresee that thought for what itis, which is a thought, not
necessarily reality and thenmake a choice about what we want
(23:48):
to do with it.
Almost every one of us hasgotten a phone call at some
point in time from an unexpectedtime, like, oh, you get a call
from a family member at anunusual time of day.
Immediately, what pops in yourmind before you answer that call
(24:09):
?
You think who's in the hospital, who died, and it may be.
Oh, I was just running an errandand I had a couple extra
minutes, I thought I'd say hi,like, like.
Sometimes it is somethingcatastrophic, but but most of
the time it's not.
And so this tendency that wehave to like, go to the worst
(24:30):
case scenario, that's asomething that psychologists
call catastrophizing, and thatis a very natural thing that
people do.
The longer that that thoughtjust stays in your head,
uninterrupted by another person,some way of externalizing it,
the more you believe it and themore damage it can do.
So all of these things thatwe're talking about from
(24:53):
building that virtuous cycle,whether that's something that
creates positive emotions, tofinding something that gives you
a state of flow all of thosepositive things will interrupt
that kind of thinking or takesome of the poison out of it.
And talking with other peoplelike you shared, mark, having
(25:15):
somebody else say else, say like, hold on a minute, like that's.
That's one of the things thatthey've shown in the positive
psychology research is that youknow other people, relationships
with other people, is thesingle greatest up when we're
feeling down, and that you know,if we have blows that we suffer
in our lives, having otherpeople around is the thing that
insulates us from from the worsteffects of that.
(25:36):
So you know, phone a friend,individuals and interactions
that's what we always talk about, right?
Mark (25:41):
That's right.
That's right.
What about the case of whereyou're having to whether it be
work with or, just you know,maybe taking it out of a work
perspective?
You know, we definitely havethat to talk about and that's
probably what many of ourlisteners.
But outside of that, what ifyou like?
I'm just trying to think, whatif you have a neighbor that you
(26:03):
see all the time and they justhave this negative view on life
and you're like boy, this isjust really.
No matter how positive I try toseem to be, the conversation
turns negative.
What advice do you have in thatsort of a scenario?
Michelle (26:20):
Well, I guess my advice would be the only people
whose thoughts or behavior wecontrol is our own.
So you know, there are peoplewho have all ranging kinds of
ways of approaching the worldand you know, good, bad and
different doesn't really matter.
So you know, there's actuallysome sort of depressing but like
(26:41):
some research that shows thatyou have a genetic
predisposition to how, likesunny, your outlook is on things
Like there's just there's kindof a fixed point where you know
you can do some stuff but, likein general, you may not be like
an overly optimistic, sunnyperson and some of that may be
your genetics.
So you know, feeling bad aboutit isn't going to help.
(27:05):
But you know, when you'reencountering people who are like
you experience as difficult orjust you know, don't they don't
lift your spirits.
I guess you know my thought.
There is well, okay.
So I may not never be able toinfluence that person's
perspective or outlook on things.
I can choose how they affect me.
(27:26):
So I can either walk away fromthat feeling like oh, that was a
real downer, or I could chooseto engage with that person and
be like, well, you know, Iapproached that person, you're
trying to understand theirperspective, or I was kind or I
listened, and you know that maybe.
You may not be able to changetheir perspective at all, but
(27:48):
you can change how interactingwith them affects you, just by
how you choose to think about it.
Mark (27:52):
What would you say if somebody told you like I can be
supportive for a certain amountof time or to a certain level,
and then I just need to take abreak?
Michelle (28:01):
after that, go and take a break.
Go and take a break.
Yeah, I mean, the people thatwe choose to be around has a big
impact on our mood and you knowhow we feel feel.
So you know being intentionalabout the relationships and the
connections that lift you up.
I think you know it'sunrealistic to believe that you
(28:22):
can only interact with peoplewho you have a great time with.
Especially if you work at acompany, you're going to have
some people who aren't yourfavorite and that's.
That's okay, you know.
But just be careful about whereyou put your energy.
So I think a lot of times,especially as agile coaches, we
(28:43):
might get fixated on like, oh,here's the one person on the
team who is resisting what Ihave to offer, or thinks agile
or scrum is a crack and theywant nothing to do with it.
Why would we choose to spendall of our time focused on that
individual instead of focused onthe people who are interested
and are getting value?
Like we can train our mind tolook for the negative things and
(29:07):
focus on them, or we can trainour mind to look for all the
positives.
So if you're feeling like, oh,I'm not being successful with
this team because I have thisone person who's not buying in.
Well, that probably means youhave maybe six or seven other
people who are seeing value.
Mark (29:31):
Let's maybe put our attention over there instead of
on the one who's giving us someheartburn.
So I'm thinking about thebalance aspect of this too,
because one of the things yousaid is maybe understand where
they're coming from or theirperspective.
One could take from thatstrategy of oh well, I'm just
going to kind of excommunicatethem and I'm just going to block
them from all my communicationand problem solved right, I just
won't even listen to thatperson.
(29:52):
But what is that going to?
I think that's going to promotemore negative vibes or negative
energy more so.
So maybe take a chance or takesome time to get into you know,
I wonder really what the pointof view is from this person.
Why are they feel?
Is there a story behind?
Yeah, I don't know about, butthat doesn't mean you have to
(30:13):
spend 40 hours a week on it.
That doesn't mean you have tospend 40 hours a week on it.
If you get an answer that'slike, okay, that's who they are
and they're not going to change,then there's nothing I can do
about it.
But at least I've given themthe respect to hear them out.
Michelle (30:29):
Right.
Right, I think in doing that,the key is separating your
experience from what theirexperience is, separating your
experience from what theirexperience is.
So, just because they don'tenjoy what's happening, or like,
you don't have to assume thatemotionally, like you don't have
to take that on emotionally asyour job to fix that, your job
(30:50):
to do anything about it, yourjob to judge it.
It is probably beneficial totry to understand it, but that
doesn't mean you have to doanything with it.
And so that I think creating alittle bit of space, like
realizing this person, like hasno control over my wellbeing or
how I'm enjoying my job, like Iam choosing that if I choose to
(31:12):
like let someone's negativeenergy make me have a bad day,
that is a choice I am making.
Like I can pay attention tothis one nasty thing somebody
said in the meeting, or I canpay attention to all the rest of
the day.
That went perfectly fine.
That is a choice.
But you know, to your point,like I would never recommend
(31:33):
like completely, unless you'rein some kind of like abusive
situation like that.
Of course, you know I say theword never, I don't mean the
word never, but for the mostpart, most of the things that
we're encountering are justdifferences of preferences and
personality and we don't, youknow.
Getting everyone to go along, Ithink, is unrealistic and it
(31:54):
just sets us up for frustration.
So if we can just learn toappreciate that there are
differences and not assumeresponsibility for them
emotionally, I think that setsus up for better success in this
kind of work.
Mark (32:05):
Maybe I'm getting a little personal here, but do you
happen to have a story that youcould tell us from your point of
view, getting into Michelle'sworld, of where this made a
difference in you, where youwere maybe not the most positive
person in the world and thingswere not looking good, but you
made a decision to start using apositive nature and seeing that
(32:31):
truly have an outcome?
Do you have an experience thatyou could share with our
listeners and with me?
Michelle (32:37):
Absolutely, absolutely , yeah.
So a few years ago I wascoaching at a large company,
part of a large transformation,and I had been at another large
company doing another largetransformation.
I was seeing some of the samepatterns that I found personally
very frustrating.
It's like, oh, we're goingthrough the motions, we're
(32:59):
working with all these teams andeverybody's still stressed
there's very little of what Ifelt like was the point of Agile
.
There were all the symptoms andtrappings of Agile, but I felt
like we were really missing whatthe real value was.
I got pretty depressed about itand I started I call it losing
(33:22):
my religion phase, because I wasjust like is it even possible
to bring these kinds of ideas toa very large, bureaucratic old
company and make any kind ofdifference?
Large, bureaucratic, oldcompany and make any kind of
difference?
And I started to conclude likeit was all pointless and that
there just wasn't any point.
So I spent some time wallowingin that During that time, of
(33:44):
course, I had different teams orthings I was working with.
I didn't count them as like oh,that wasn't a valuable
experience, I didn't offeranything.
You know, I felt like I'd haveideas and then I convinced
myself oh, no one's going tosupport this or I'm going to be
shot down.
And so, you know, I kind of Ithink I hit like some sort of
(34:05):
rock bottom about it and justrealized like, well, maybe I
can't change this situation,like I was in a position where I
didn't want to change companiesand also I had done that before
and it didn't like my feelingabout it.
And so I'm like, okay, I'mreally out of options here.
Maybe there's something to someof this positive psychology
(34:26):
stuff.
So I started doing my ownlittle experiments and just
really focusing on my mindset.
Maybe six months after I'dreally put my focus there on
like, am I enjoying what I'mdoing during the day?
Am I taking the time to bethoughtful, like to do all the
things that I need to kind ofrecharge my batteries throughout
(34:46):
the day, I got an email from anSBP at the company about
helping his leadership team withinstalling this framework that
he'd heard about, and so theyhad just gone through a
transformation for their500-person part of the
organization and they were like,oh hey, as leaders we haven't
(35:07):
done this ourselves.
Maybe we ought to transform ourown leadership team to support,
better support, the rest of ourorganization.
And so you know at first.
If I had gotten that email, likeeven you know, six months
before, I would have been likeoh he's asking for this thing.
I don't have any experiencewith that.
(35:27):
Plus, this is a senior levelleader.
I'm sure all they care about islike just squeezing more work
out of people.
Like I don't want any part ofthat, like I would have found
reasons to say no, pass it offto somebody else, or just
entered that conversationassuming that nothing good would
come out of it.
Instead, I remember like havinga moment like where I thought
(35:48):
about that and then I was likewait a minute, why don't I just
see what they want.
Like, why don't I just, likehere, have a conversation, hear
what's important to them, andthen you know I can offer them
what I can offer them.
And so we did have thatconversation and I shared you
know, here's my perspective onthis.
I think a lot of work at theleadership team level is about
(36:11):
culture and attitudes andbehaviors.
These are things that I'minterested in and can help you
with.
What do you think?
And they said sure.
And so then after that I workedwith that leadership team.
We did something that was myapproach that I came up with
myself so doing one-on-onecoaching with the leaders, doing
a team assessment and aworkshop to help them figure out
(36:34):
from an appreciative standpoint.
So this is again like positiveappreciating what's already
there, what are you alreadydoing?
That's agile, and so from thatwe noticed a lot of things that
they were already doing well.
Then we found a couple of smalltweaks to make that would
improve their effectiveness.
As an agile leadership team hadan amazing time with these guys
(36:54):
and it was probably I mean it'slike a highlight of my coaching
career.
So in the blog post that youmentioned, mark, I said
something around like you know,people are really worried about
getting laid off and like, oh,you don't need to worry about
this if you like, stop worrying.
And the interesting part that'snot in the blog post is that.
(37:17):
So after you know I'd done thiswork with this team, my company
then went through a change totheir remote work policy.
So I've been hired during COVIDas a remote worker.
They said, okay, you're goingto have to relocate to another
city with an office or take apackage.
So I got laid off.
That ended up being the mostamazing thing for my career.
(37:39):
So it launched.
It gave me the space to launchmy own coaching consulting
business.
And that team that I'd workedwith, that leadership team, I
had a consulting engagement withthem.
After kind of my initialseverance period, I went back to
work with them as a consultant.
So for the last six months I'vebeen working with them again.
(38:00):
So these things you know likeif any of these things around
mindset, if I've been feelinglike bad about what I had to
offer, not looking for theopportunity there, all of those
could be different.
You know blows, but there'sopportunity in all of it.
(38:20):
So, even getting laid, out forme ended up being the most
amazing thing that happened lastyear, and you know so.
I think there's a lot of not toget overly emphasizing what I
know can be a really, reallydifficult time for people.
But you know I'm grateful forthe time that I'd spent focusing
on you know how I was showingup, because that has helped me
kind of navigate through, youknow, some difficult,
(38:41):
potentially difficult spacessince then.
Mark (38:45):
So I think everybody can agree.
I mean it's we don't live inDisneyland, we're not always
going to have a happy ending.
But I have a very similar storythat I'll share, because we're
running low on time to a time inmy life, and that was when I
was making the transition frombeing a developer to being a
manager, and I wanted to justdip my toes in that, because my
dad always told me you need toprobably scratch that itch at
(39:09):
some point to see if it's whatyou want to do and if it's not
great.
But you don't want to get tothe, to the end of your career
and say, boy, I wish I wouldhave given it a shot.
And so I had a recruiter callme and say hey, mark, I've got
this position for this, for thisdeveloper job that think you'd
be great for we also have amanagement position for the
development org, if you knowanybody that's interested.
(39:31):
You know, if I didn't have apositive mindset about it, I
would have just been like, oh,woe is me, I'll never get a shot
, nobody will ever give me achance.
But I said, well, hey, I'd beinterested in the management
position.
So she said okay, sure, let mepresent you and within the same
day she calls back hey, mark,talked with the client.
They said that you don't haveany experience being a manager,
(39:54):
so you're out for that, but theyreally would like to bring you
in as a developer.
And I said can you just give mea shot, because I think I can
sell them on it?
I think I have the attributesand if you just give me that
chance, I think I can prove them.
She was like you know, I'm kindof sticking my neck out on a
line because I'm a recruiter andI'm supposed to give the client
(40:15):
what they're looking for.
But I'll give you that chance.
And ultimately they did, and Imust have said something right
because I did get the position.
But if I would have been inthat negative mindset of just
nobody's ever going to give me ashot you know, until I get the
experience, who's going to giveme the experience I would have
never, never gone for it.
(40:37):
And, like I say, that's not,that's not to say that it's
always going to work out thatway, but you have a zero percent
chance of it happening if youdon't, if you don't try to make
it happen.
Michelle (40:47):
That's.
That's right, exactly so.
If you, if you don't believe inwhat you have to offer, who
else will believe in it?
Believe in what you have tooffer, who else will believe in
it?
And I love you sharing thatstory, mark, because that to me
is like kind of at the heart ofit.
Even just seeing theopportunity there, recognizing
that it's something that youcould try, and then being okay
(41:07):
to go with whatever happensafter that Like you got rejected
by the recruiter that didn'tstop you from going and saying,
well, give me a try.
And I think that's the heart ofa lot of this kind of thinking
is that even when we have thosesetbacks, they give us an
opportunity to learn something,to try to expand our courage at
(41:29):
the very least.
Even if it's just okay, well, Idid something courageous.
It may not have had the resultthat I wanted, but that kind of
action, if we take that on acontinuous basis, that's the
thing that pushes us forward.
So, yeah, I think that's reallycool to hear that from you.
I hope that inspires people totake that brave step in favor of
(41:52):
themselves, because that'swhere it all starts.
Mark (41:56):
I do want to give an opportunity for you to share if
our listeners out there want toget in touch with you either,
just if they have questions, I'msure, about some of this
content.
I know you well enough to knowyou're very warm and open to
having a dialogue, having aconversation.
But well, let's start off withthat.
First of all, how can peopleget in touch with you?
Michelle (42:15):
Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn my profile.
I'm sure we can probably put alink or something in the notes.
You can also reach me atmichelleatstreamsidecoachingcom.
That's my website or my emailfor my business.
Happy to talk with anyone who'scurious about some of the ideas
(42:36):
that we talked about here orwould like to call me out on
something.
I'm glad to have thatconversation too.
But, yeah, I've got some thingsthat are coming up that I'm
excited to share with theaudience.
Mark, I'm working on a new groupprogram on.
It's going to be calledLeadership Essentials for
(42:56):
Transformational Change.
So if you are an agile coach, ascrum master, if you're a
project manager or somebody whois trying to change something or
lead something that involvessome kind of human behavior
change in order to makesomething happen, especially if
you're at the middle of anorganization you're maybe not
(43:18):
we're not CEOs you're able tojust kind of put out a decree
and then hope that everyone goesalong with it.
This program is designed forchange agents at those levels,
helping you get the influenceskills, the conversational and
dialogue skills that can movethings forward in a respectful
and effective way.
So that's going to be coming upin February.
(43:40):
So if that piques your interest, please find some time with me.
You can reach out to me onLinkedIn or you can book time
directly through my website,which is
wwwstreamsidecoachingcom, so I'dlove to talk with folks about
that if that's interesting tothem.
Mark (43:56):
Great.
We will definitely put allthose links in the show notes.
And I'll just say, michelle,having employed you as a
professional coach on a personalbasis and also sitting through
some of your offerings thatyou've had, I can't say anything
but very positive, glowingthings.
So if you do sign up forsomething with Michelle, I have
(44:17):
no doubt whatsoever, I'm fullyconvinced and confident that you
will find value in it, becauseshe does such a great job and is
very empathetic.
There you go For what that'sworth, or maybe what it's not
worth, michelle.
Michelle (44:29):
That means a lot.
Your endorsement means a lot tome.
So thank you, Mark.
I really appreciate that.
Mark (44:35):
Well, michelle, thanks for coming on the show.
It's been a pleasure again,glad to have you.
Michelle (44:40):
Oh pleasure, the pleasure was mine.
Thank you, Mark.
I really appreciate theinvitation, the opportunity to
share.
Mark (44:46):
Great, All right, everybody.
That brings it into anotherepisode of the Agile Within.
We'll see everybody next time.
Thanks for joining us foranother episode of the agile
within.
If you haven't already, pleasejoin our LinkedIn page to stay
in touch.
Just search for the agilewithin and please spread the
(45:10):
word with your friends andcolleagues until next time.
This has been your host, MarkMetz.
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