November 20, 2024 • 38 mins
Discover how the vast, unpredictable ocean can teach us about agility and leadership as I sit down with Stephanie Ockerman, a renowned business agility and leadership coach. Stephanie takes us on her unique journey of blending surfing with agile practices, revealing how the ocean's natural ebb and flow mirrors the complexities of business environments. Her vivid stories illustrate that truly understanding agile principles is akin to riding a wave—it's about being present and engaging with the experience. Join us as we explore how the lessons from the surf can transform our leadership capabilities and help us navigate the ever-changing tides of business.
We tackle the ongoing struggle between traditional planning and genuine agility within organizations. Stephanie uses surfing as a metaphor to spotlight the shift from reactive to creative leadership. By emphasizing the importance of presence and openness to learning, we challenge leaders to transcend beyond mere compliance with agile methodologies, urging a more holistic approach to managing uncertainty and complexity. Our conversation invites leaders to embrace a mindset that values sensing change and responding creatively, leaving rigid plans behind.
Our discussion wraps up with the introduction of the Agile Leadership Surf Camp, a transformative experience in Costa Rica that combines surfing, yoga, and leadership development. Stephanie shares insights on how this unique blend can cultivate personal growth and enhance one's ability to embrace uncertainty gracefully. This episode promises to inspire, offering a fresh perspective on agility and leadership, rooted in the serene yet challenging environment of the ocean. Don’t miss out on this opportunity to learn how to ride the waves of change with confidence and creativity.
Connect with Stephanie on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephanieockerman/
Check out Stephanie's website, subscribe to her newsletter, and find out about offerings including the Agile Leadership Surf Camp in Costa Rica:
https://www.agilesocks.com/
Read Stephanie's book, "Mastering Professional Scrum":
https://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Professional-Scrum-Coaches-Challenges/dp/0134841522
Follow us on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-agile-within
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Agile Within.
I am your host, mark Metz.
My mission for this podcast isto provide Agile insights into
human values and behaviorsthrough genuine connections.
My guests and I will sharereal-life stories from our Agile
journeys, triumphs, blundersand everything in between, as
(00:29):
well as the lessons that we havelearned.
So get pumped, get rocking.
The Agile Within starts now.
Well, hey there, welcome backto the Agile Within.
This is Mark Metz.
I hope everybody is having anabsolutely fantastic day out
there today.
I certainly am, because I havea guest by the name of Stephanie
(00:50):
Ackerman, who I've beenfollowing for quite a while, and
I'm very honored to have her asa guest.
So, stephanie, welcome to theAgile Within.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
So Stephanie is from Columbus Ohio as our typical
icebreaker here on the show.
If I were coming to ColumbusOhio for a day and had never
been there before, what's onething that I just absolutely
could not miss doing?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
My sense is that, especially knowing a little bit
about you, you got to see OhioStadium.
It's really impressive and Iwill say you don't even have to
be a football fan.
I took a friend of mine therewho's like not even like from
the States, like is not intocollege football, and even she
was super impressed, just likeseeing it.
(01:37):
It's a pretty cool site.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
All right, I'll take you up on that.
Capacity is like over 100,000,right Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
So we're talking big scale here, big scale, big scale
, cool architecture and thenjust it's right on campus too,
so like you get the full collegevibe.
It's not like it's like severalblocks away, which I think you
see sometimes with someuniversities.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Can't wait to come up there and visit and and see a
college football game.
You get tickets and I'll be upthere.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I wish I could get you tickets.
It's hard to get tickets andexpensive.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So Stephanie is a business agility and leadership
coach.
She's a consultant, aprofessional scrum trainer, an
author and an entrepreneur.
She helps teams and leaders useevidence-based approaches to
unlock customer value, createspaces for innovation and
harness the power ofcollaborative teamwork.
(02:33):
Stephanie's also the co-authorof the book Mastering
Professional Scrum.
I can't tell you enough If youhaven't read this book, go out
and get it.
It's just as good of a read asit is a resource material for
later.
Thank you for coming on to theshow.
Our title for the show heretoday is You're Not Going to
(02:57):
Think your Way Into a Wave.
That's an interesting title.
What in the world does notthinking about yourself into a
WAVE?
What does that have to do withagility?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah, so just to give a little context for those who
maybe don't follow my writing,you know I've worked in kind of
traditional organizations,starting with project management
, moving my career towardsagility, and so you know I've
been in kind of the productdevelopment and agility world
for quite a while now.
(03:28):
What I have recently discoveredin the past few years is how
surfing is a powerful accesspoint to more deeply embodying
agility and also like trulyrecognizing and being able to
understand myself as a leader sothat I can show up in ways that
(03:49):
are both more influential andimpactful, but also more ease
for myself as well.
And so this idea that, likeyou're not going to think your
way into a wave, it's a surflesson, and I have a lot of
different surf lessons that Iactually incorporate into
everything I do, how I teach,how I work with clients, what I
(04:12):
write about the connections Imake, because I do feel really
strongly that when we accessdifferent modalities of learning
, and especially when it's in anembodied way and it's something
that's like outside of ournormal day-to-day stressors and
also the ability to trulydisconnect from like a drama and
(04:32):
the constant distractions, tolike really immerse ourselves in
that type of experience, wejust can unlock so much more for
ourselves in a lot of differentways, and so for me, that
connection between agility andour own leadership as change
agents has been huge throughsurfing the past few years, and
so when we say you're not goingto think your way into a wave,
(04:55):
it really touches on a number ofaspects of agility, but one of
the core things is this idea ofsensing and responding.
If you've learned Agile theoryright, like we talk about this
idea of we're doing complex work, right, we're doing creative
work in complex environmentsthat are unpredictable and we're
(05:16):
navigating ambiguity Things aregoing to change and we need to
be responsive to change.
You'll hear sometimes like thisidea of like sensing and
responding as like a leadershipapproach.
There's different theories.
You can see out there that theyuse this terminology, but I'm
like, do people really know whatthat means?
Like, including myself, did Ireally know what that meant when
I first learned it?
(05:36):
And I would say not really.
I don't think so.
Like I knew what the wordsmeant, but to really be able to
embody this idea of sensing andresponding, we talk about
emergence a lot in the agileworld.
Like we need emergent solutions.
Do we know what emergence means, and so the ocean, to me, is
the perfect natural emergentsystem for us to relate to.
(06:00):
That, I think, really doesmirror.
I'll keep using my surfinganalogies.
The waters we swim in arebusiness worlds, right, and
really all aspects of life wherewe're navigating complexity,
uncertainty, ambiguity, thisyou're not going to think your
way into a wave is about.
I can learn the theory.
I can even practice some of theskills.
(06:21):
I can watch surfing instructionvideos.
I can go out on the beach andpractice my pop-up, I can
practice my paddling.
But the reality is, until I'mactually out there trying to
catch waves and like feelingwhat is happening in the water,
what's the speed of the wave?
What's the energy of the wave?
Is there a current?
What's the wind doing?
(06:41):
Like, how am I feeling my bodyon the surfboard right?
How do I sense my body on thesurfboard?
How do I sense the right timingto pop up?
Yeah, I need to know the theory.
I need to have some lessons andsome coaching to help me do it
in the moment.
But you really only learn itthrough just getting out and
paddling out, getting in thosereps, and that means a lot of
not catching waves as you try tocatch waves.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So I'm thinking of another metaphor.
So you and I have talked,stephanie, I'm a big sports guy,
but sports don't necessarilyresonate with everyone.
I've been told that, as I doover sports analogies.
But I think all of thelisteners out there I'm pretty
sure that everybody, or mosteveryone, has either ridden a
(07:24):
bike or helped someone ride abike, or at least seen someone
learning to ride a bike as achild.
You can read books, you canread magazines, look at articles
, you can watch videos, butuntil you actually get on the
bike yourself, feel what itmeans to balance, how you have
to pedal the pedals, what itmeans to go uphill, what it
(07:45):
means to go downhill, yoursensing and responding and
that's where I see thisrelationship between surfing and
agility is that there's so muchunpredictable.
You can try your best, yourdarndest, to learn all the
different techniques away fromthe water, but until you
actually get in the water andare doing it yourself, you're
(08:07):
really not going to learn.
Is that an accurate way tocompare the two?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, I think so, and I do really like the learning
to ride a bike metaphor as well,because what was coming up for
me was like and then you hitgravel and you have to adapt to
how you're riding.
You hit pavement or differenttype of concrete.
You know you got to go over acurb, right?
So there it's.
I think it is a really usefulanalogy as well to use, and
(08:34):
what's interesting to me aboutit is that we talk about this
idea all the time of you know wecan't perfectly plan.
We don't even know what thesolution looks like, so we need
to affect and adapt our waytowards figuring out the
solution.
Yet when you look at whatactually happens in a lot of
organizations and teams, there'sstill this belief that we have
(08:58):
to have the answer.
We have to know exactly what tobuild and we got to like plan
it out, and we might wrap Gromor other agile practice
terminology around it, but we'restill doing predictive, plan
driven work.
It's not a methodology, right,like we figure out the process
that works best for us.
(09:18):
I don't think there's like oneway it's supposed to look, but
it's more like getting curiousabout why are we working the way
we're working Like are we doing?
Are we just taking kind ofthese old patterns that we've
had around planning, predicting,and like wanting to know more
before we build something?
Or like not really being okaywith failure, not really
(09:41):
believing that, like it's okayto say we can't lock in a date
because I mean we could, butthen that means go past the
fluctuary, the truly embracing,like what agility means.
It's hard because these patterns, these beliefs, these ways of
doing things have are ingrainedin us from pretty much all the
systems that we've been immersedin our whole lives, right From
(10:03):
our family systems to educationsystems, to various professional
development and howorganizations typically work.
There's this idea that we cantalk about agility a lot and we
can even be using the practicesand the frameworks, but are we
really working in a way that ishonoring emergence, that is
(10:24):
honoring this idea of sensingand responding?
For me, like there's anotherpiece of this that comes into
play.
So this idea of you're notgoing to think your way into a
wave, like another way to thinkabout that is am I connected to
my full body intelligence or amI in my head?
I bring this into a lot of mywork, this idea of creative
(10:45):
versus reactive leadership.
What I mean by that.
So creative leadership meaning.
Am I open and curious?
Am I present right?
Am I truly present, sensingwhat's happening and committed
to learning Versus?
If I'm reactive, I'm moreclosed, defensive, judging
probably myself, myself, butalso others, judging the
(11:07):
circumstances right.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I would think of it as you have your mind made up.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, and like I'm, committed to getting it right
and I'm like forcing and drivingright.
And so this creative versusreactive just to give you an
example of how it shows up insurfing and I'm guessing you'll
be able to see how this playsout in almost every interaction
we have throughout our day it'slike I could be out going for
waves and just be gettingfrustrated with myself because I
(11:33):
haven't caught a wave in 30minutes.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I can'tbelieve I still haven't caught a
wave yet.
And I'm watching these othersurfers and they're catching
waves and it's like I get madderand more frustrated every wave
they catch.
And I'm just in my head, rightLike, and then I go for a wave
and I miss it because I'm notsensing anything, right Like,
I'm not really sensing theenergy of the wave, I'm not
(11:56):
sensing where my body is on thesurfboard and the right timing
to pop up, so I'm probably goingto keep missing waves.
So when I get into that reactivestate I'm not going to catch
any waves.
I'm also not learning anythingbecause I'm not really sensing
what's happening.
I'm in my head, right Like I'mnot thinking.
I mean I'm saying, think yourway into a wave, but it's really
I'm judging and spinningstories in my head about this
(12:20):
ocean, like I don't know why theconditions are so bad, or
comparing myself to othersurfers, or just judging myself,
for you know, not being betterthan I am right now.
Right, and that doesn't helpyou catch the wave.
So that's another way that thesurf lesson shows up.
You're not going to think yourway into your, into a wave.
It's this idea that I need tonot just be in my head in that
(12:43):
state of assumptions, stories,judgments and truly just whoo,
like let me breathe, let me bemore grounded and calm and be
open of, like, what's availablehere, like how do I get present
and really start sensing?
Because that's when you'regoing to catch the wave.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
I love the image that I'm getting here, because the
image that I'm getting, ifyou're thinking about how not to
do this, I can think about you,stephanie, giving a surf lesson
and you giving the advice todon't think yourself into a wave
.
So one of your students getsout there, they get on their
surfboard, they jump in thewater and they're going and
(13:23):
they're like well, I didn't planeverything.
I'm doing what Stephanie said.
I'm not trying to think myselfinto it, but over and over, I'm
not successful.
Why am I not successful?
I'm doing what was told.
But there's doing what was toldand there's the word that you
said that I like is are youembodying that?
So, are you truly sensing, areyou learning from what you
(13:47):
experienced before?
Because the mindset of, well,I'm doing what I was told, I'm
doing it right.
Well, are you really?
Are you really?
You may be going through themotions, and that's where we can
do Agile by the book and thinkthat we're doing things right.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Are we truly learning by the book and think that
we're doing things right.
Are we truly learning Right?
Yeah, and this you know the wayyou're describing it.
It's funny to me too, becauseit's like this is how you learn
to surf right, like you learnthe individual, like kind of
micro skills I like to call itright and we all have micro
skills and all the work we'redoing all the time out in the
world, and it's like you got tobe able to put them all together
like intuitively in the moment,like that's when you really
(14:26):
learn to surf, and thenconditions are different and
then you're not going to be goodat these other conditions,
right, until again you get outthere, you practice, you put
that together, you start to, youstart to get like an intuitive
wisdom around how you willrespond in the water the next
time the conditions are likethis, respond in the water the
next time the conditions arelike this.
(14:46):
And so it's very similar, likewhen we're dealing with like
conflict and in ourorganizations we're dealing with
failure or some extrauncertainty, some something's
happening and people are worriedabout it, all of those things
in our real world, workenvironments, or just like the
stress of like somebody wants wehave to give them a date, like
the client wants a date.
Those things all kind of drawthe same type of reactivity that
(15:07):
you might experience out in theocean, like a little bit of
fear, a little bit of worry, alittle bit of oh my gosh, I got
to get it right.
Why am I not getting it right?
But the other thing that wascoming to mind for me, as you
were describing that is yeah,that's why you need people to
help you.
You know, when you have a surfcoach, that person is there to
help you get the timing right.
They're there to tell you like,okay, start paddling now, start
(15:28):
paddling now, pop up like standup, stand up.
During that experience, in thiswhat I'll call creative state,
for your body to also then belearning the feeling while the
person has helped your brainunderstand what you're doing in
the moment.
And I think it's very similarto kind of what we do in the
(15:52):
world working with teams andcreating products.
It's important, I think, tohave that support and it doesn't
have to be like a formal coach,always right.
It can be helping each other interms of like, what skills I
have, what skills you have, andwhere we're trying to grow our
capacity.
But also sometimes you do needlike hey, we need an actual
person who can be here and tellus like okay, paddle harder,
(16:16):
paddle harder.
Like stand up.
One of the things for me thatis really helpful is when
somebody else is pointing out myreactivity in a way of like
breathe.
So like you'll notice like youmight be getting a little
constricted on the surfboard andit's like your surf coach is
going to know that and just belike hey, you're doing great,
(16:37):
but you need to breathe.
You've got this look ofdetermination.
What happens if you smile rightLike let's not take ourselves
too seriously out here?
And I think that's anotherreally core leadership principle
and I think I first heard thatI don't remember if it was like
co-active or consciousleadership group.
Not taking ourselves tooseriously is so important in
(16:58):
leadership and I think itmatters for I mean like the
actual concept of working inagile ways too.
I think it matters for I meanthe actual concept of working in
agile ways too, because it'slike when we start taking
ourselves too seriously, thatputs us right back into.
I need to get it right.
We can say that we believefailure is learning and we
should fail fast all day long.
But the question is do wereally believe that and do we
live into that?
(17:19):
What I see a lot of times isthat we don't.
And I'm including myself inthat.
I'm an entrepreneur, I run abusiness as well and I work with
teams and organizations and I,even though I do this for a
living like I teach this stufffor a living it's like there's
no end point with yourleadership, like this is a
journey, this idea of surfing.
(17:41):
It's introduced like really core, embodied things that I now can
see the patterns more clearlyand I can notice like, oh, like,
what happens when I getreactive.
Well, I notice when I'm in theocean, I have thoughts like this
and here's how I respond andhere's what it feels like in my
body, versus when I'm out therejust treating this surf session
(18:03):
as like wow, look, how awesomeit is that I get to be out here
on this beautiful day looking atthe mountains and the palm
trees behind me and out herehaving fun and learning, and
like every, every way of attemptis an experiment and we see
what happens and we inspect andadapt.
And you know, oh, I wiped out.
Well, my friend just saw me andwe're going to laugh about it
(18:26):
and I feel like, if we can takethat approach to our work,
stresses and challenges as well,right, when we stay open, we
are more likely to see moreopportunities right how we can
adapt.
What did we learn from that?
To see more opportunities righthow we can adapt.
What did we learn from thatVersus just being in this really
(18:47):
constricted state of reactivitywhere we're just like worrying
or panicking or like doingthings that are actually going
to hurt us even further?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Does Shuha Ri come into any elements of your
lessons of learning to surf andapplying those to leadership?
It's an interesting I mean Ithink it can kind of apply to
surf and applying those toleadership.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
That's an interesting I mean.
I think it can kind of apply toanything right Like the concept
of shuhari.
I will say, though, like I amnot like teaching people to surf
, that is not my like.
So me running an agileleadership surf camp I am
responsible for the leadershipprogramming and like weaving it
(19:23):
all, weaving and experiencethrough surfing and yoga, and
like leadership programming,actual people who are certified
surf instructors are the oneswho do the teaching.
But what I will say is, whenI'm out there, like with friends
, we can support each other.
I also have a relationship withthe person who's been coaching
(19:43):
me for years, who I firstlearned from where like also, by
the way, like get a formal surflessons I reach a peak and I'm
kind of like I don't know, man,I just can't seem.
I feel like I've reached thispoint and or maybe I'm going
backwards.
I need a coach to just likehelp me for a bit, so I'll get
some coaching.
But I see my coach out in thewater all the time, what I
always appreciate and this isactually, I think, an important
(20:06):
lesson for leadership andagility too.
He will ask me if I wantcoaching, like if he sees
something.
He always asks for my consentbefore, like he just starts
coaching me, always asks for myconsent before, like he just
starts coaching me, and I thinkso.
Like coaching is like a wholeprofession, right, and I do
think that in the agile world,what I see a lot is not
(20:29):
necessarily being fully inalignment with the profession of
coaching and more treating itas a person who is an expert and
is going to teach people andconsult and maybe facilitate,
and there isn't as much truecoaching as there could be.
And so I think that's aninteresting piece that we've
stumbled into around, like thisidea leadership we haven't
(20:51):
really established this.
We're all leaders.
We take responsibility for ourimpact.
We're all co-creating our world, right.
So I don't think of leader asjust a position of authority or
a job title.
I think we're all co-creatingour world, right.
So I don't think of leader asjust a position of authority or
a job title.
I think we're all leaders andwe all have the ability to kind
of co-create our world.
How we show up is going tocreate an impact, and so if we
(21:14):
show up in a reactive way, thathas impacts versus showing up in
a creative way.
This idea of coaching andconsent I think it's important
that we're clear when we areworking with teams.
What is my role?
What hat am I wearing right now?
Because sometimes, especiallylike if you're a scrum master,
you might be a person whofacilitates, teaches, coaches,
(21:38):
maybe is involved in doing someof the work as well, depending
on what hats you're wearing, andso I think it's useful to think
about talking about when are wecoaching, when are we advising,
choosing the right thing, and Ithink it's an intuitive choice
to some degree of like what'shappening, what's at stake,
what's important, but also menot deciding what's best for
(21:58):
everyone.
What's at stake, what'simportant.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
But also me not deciding what's best for
everyone.
Context matters when it comesto coaching.
And I would imagine, when itcomes to surfing, you would say
conditions matter, whether it beatmospheric or weather or ocean
conditions, or even your ownpersonal health conditions, that
all matters.
And it's very similar that youcan't just go in and say, ok,
I've got my five steps, I'mgoing to go in and coach this
(22:23):
person.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Right, yeah, exactly, and I do think a lot of us, you
know there's something to besaid.
When you first are learningthings, you maybe learn a
process, you learn a set ofsteps.
However, the more we practicethis and practice intentionally,
so we're like very clear aboutwhat I'm doing, I'm being, I'm
being very mindful of reflectingon okay, how is this going?
(22:46):
Okay, do I need to do somethingdifferently next time?
Right, so that's what I mean byintentional practice and that's
what you know.
You do that out in the ocean toget better, but we do it out in
our real world as well, withthe teams and leaders that we
work with.
Then it becomes more intuitiveand you kind of have like this
big bag of tools that you have,that you just kind of sense.
(23:08):
Oh, I see what's happening hereand I feel like this might be
the challenge and I'm going totry something and I might get it
wrong, and I have to be okay.
I have to be not attached tothat decision.
I mean I have to fully commit.
I got to go all in.
This is true of surfing.
You cannot halfway commit tocatching a wave.
You can, you can, I should sayand you will fall.
(23:31):
It's like you got to go in, yougot to fully commit to when you
go to for that wave and go tostand up, but you also can't be
attached to the outcome.
That's an important piece ofagility that helps us remember
we cannot control outcomes,can't?
We cannot guarantee an outcome,and I think that's one of the
(23:53):
things that leads us to notcreating goals that are based on
outcomes, and we see goals thatare more like outputs.
How many features can wedeliver in this?
Release right and measuringvelocity and all sorts of things
that actually lead to a lot ofunintended consequences.
I think that happens becausewe're afraid that if our goal is
(24:16):
something we can't control orguarantee, I can't have that as
my goal, because then I can'tguarantee my success, and so
that's another piece that hasreally come to life for me in
the ocean as well is realizingwhere I'm attaching my
worthiness to some version ofhow we measure success.
(24:37):
Or I can have an intention ofI'd really like to try to catch
10 waves during the surf lesson.
Okay, great, but if I only careabout 10 waves, that doesn't
tell me about how I improvedsince the last time.
It doesn't tell me about howI'm adjusting in the moment,
based on the conditions, itdoesn't tell me that, hey, that
(24:59):
wasn't even possible todaybecause the ocean was so chaotic
and it was actually amazingthat I even caught three waves.
So there's just so muchavailable in that, as we're
talking through this, I'm hopingthe through lines are coming
through of where we utilizecertain practices in the agile
space, like talking aboutoutcomes over outputs.
(25:20):
So there's tools that we canuse that will help us live into
some of these surf lessons.
But we have to really beconscious of it.
And then we have to really bedoing our own inner work to
start recognizing like, oh like.
Where is that showing up for me?
What is preventing me fromstaying open and curious in this
(25:42):
moment?
What is my trigger?
How do I start to notice thosepatterns, recognize sooner, so
that I can shift if I'm ready toright?
It's not all about like I alwayshave to be in this creative
state of being as a human being.
Your brain is not wired thatway, you know.
Again, it's not the goal oflike, always being in a creative
state of leadership.
(26:02):
It's recognizing.
Where am I more frequently,being more aware and be oh wait,
I just realize, and maybe yousense it through your body, like
I know.
For me it's like my shoulderstightening up.
Sometimes, depending on what'shappening, I'll feel something
in my stomach Like I'll justhave like a knot in my stomach.
I can feel my face getting hotOne.
(26:40):
It felt safe to find thosepatterns outside of my work
context, but then what Irealized is that, oh, those
patterns are showing up in otherparts of my life and now I can
start to recognize them soonerand I can go back to the ocean
in my brain, in my body, even ifI'm like in a Zoom session with
somebody right, like I can kindof have that like oh, okay, the
(27:04):
ocean, remember the ocean.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
I'm going to say something and tell me if you
agree or you disagree.
But part of the metaphor thatyou're setting you're talking
about patterns and you'retalking about different tools
that you can use when surfingand relating those to leadership
and agility and coaching isthat those patterns are great,
the tools are great, but unlessyou actually use them, they're
not going to be of any value toyou.
(27:33):
And just because you use themdoesn't mean you're necessarily
going to use them correctly orin the right situation.
So I'm thinking of a differentmetaphor of if I'm using a tool
to fix something.
If I'm using a pneumatic gunthat hammers nails, until I
actually use it and getproficient with it, it's
(27:56):
probably not going to beeffective to me, but that
doesn't mean I use it in everysituation.
I don't go in and maybe try touse a nail gun in my home to
nail a picture, because I'llprobably punch a hole through
the wall If that's the only toolin your tool bag.
And I see that because I hadsomeone talk to me about a
situation where they wereworking with a customer and the
(28:17):
customer came, or the thisperson came into a new company
and they installed safe Becausethat's what they knew that's
what they were comfortable with,that's what they had seen
successful before.
So they installed safe.
But guess what?
This was a company of like ahundred people total and the it
department was like maybe 30 or40.
(28:38):
Are you really using the besttool in the right situation?
So, as you're practicing thesedifferent tools, techniques and
looking at these patterns whenyou're surfing, it's not that
you know how to use them, it'swhen to use them right.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Right.
It's that idea of likepurposefully practicing and
you're sensing right.
The sensing and respondingstill comes into play there.
So, you're like understandingand getting feedback of like oh,
I tried this, here's whathappened.
Okay, here's what I.
I'm going to try this otherthing right, because now I sense
something different ishappening here.
You could even say, likepicking the right surfboard for
(29:16):
the conditions.
That brings us back to the toolmetaphor.
It's really interesting, Likewhere I surf it's it's not a
beach that's really good forshortboarding, yet there's a lot
of people who are justinsistent on shortboarding at
this beach and they can do itLike don't get me wrong, they
can do it and I'm not judgingthat they're choosing to do that
.
(29:36):
But it's interesting to me and Iwas just having this
conversation around, what's thesurf lesson here?
And it was like there's thisidea of like a soul surfer.
I learned about this when Ifirst started like to really
surf and there was this dude outthere who was in his seventies
or something and this man couldwave any single way.
(29:57):
I was like he's so good and Iwas.
And then that's when I learnedhe used to be a professional
surfer a while ago and he was sokind to me, like and I'm out
there just learning and failing,all over the place.
He was always so supportive ofme, but what I always noticed is
that he would ride that waveall the way to the beat and it
(30:17):
was like he just like would flowon it, Whereas a lot of times a
surfer will like kick out ofthe wave early so that they
don't have to paddle as far backout or something, and like some
days you need to do that likeif it's real big, you need to
make choices about that, becausethat is like a real, a real
thing.
But this idea of he just wantedto like use what the ocean was
(30:40):
giving him fully, and it waslike an interesting idea of like
you're dancing with what'shappening, creating with the
ocean, creating from what theocean is giving you, Versus if
you are on a shortboard in wavesthat are not very powerful, you
kind of got to jump on theboard to like force more speed
(31:02):
for you to keep going.
I was just kind of likethinking.
I was like, oh, this is reallyinteresting, this idea, and to
me this again relates to bothleadership and agility what is
here and am I resisting?
What is, or am I creating withwhat we have today?
Right, so we might getchallenging conditions in front
of us.
Right, we can look at.
The pandemic was obviously likea big example, a big disrupting
(31:25):
event.
It's like what organizationscreated with that versus who was
just fully resistant and notrecognizing the need to do
something different, to change.
And I don't mean that to saylike, oh, if a business went
under during the pandemic, theywere resistant.
That's not true either.
Sometimes you just fail.
You can do everything in yourpower and you don't get to the
(31:48):
end desire, but it's like canyou look back and say we did
everything we could, we wereobserving, we had this data, we
tried this, we tried that.
To me, it's like this idea thatyou cannot guarantee your
success when we really getcomfortable with that and really
live it.
To me, that's when you unlockthe benefits of agility because
(32:10):
you're able to look and see whatare the opportunities, what's
really happening.
I'm not attached to this thing.
If it's not working and we'rerunning experiments and seeing
that it's not working, thenwe're going to do something
different.
It's a really powerful tool toembrace that.
You know we can't guarantee theoutcomes and you know I talk
(32:30):
about this other surf lessonlike we cannot measure our
success by how many waves wecatch, and that is hinting at
like things.
Like we need to measure outcomes, not just outputs.
But it's much bigger than that.
We need to change ourrelationship with even the idea
of measuring success, becausethat sends us straight into like
(32:50):
judgment and scarcity andfeeling at threat.
Then we're leading fromreactivity again.
So like we don't want to attachlike our worthiness or
happiness to anything likeexternal from us.
Like that, and especially inthe agile space where we talk
about, you know we can'tguarantee, we can't control.
(33:12):
It's like, yeah, but are we?
Speaker 1 (33:13):
actually acting that way.
All right, Stephanie, this hasbeen a great conversation.
I want to leave a few minutesfor the end here and want to
make sure that if our listenersout there want to get in touch
with you, that they can.
What's the best way for them toreach out to you?
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I have a newsletter.
That is the perfect place ifyou want to read more about my
content.
You know I like to write aboutyou know a wide range of topics.
There's always a connection toagility and leadership, but also
, like kind of to me, that'slife as well.
So my website, agilesockscom.
You can sign up for mynewsletter there and you can
(33:47):
also connect on LinkedIn.
I am fairly active there aswell.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Great.
We'll put those links in theshow notes to make it easy for
everyone to define those.
So, stephanie, I understandyou've got an Agile Leadership
Surf Camp, so you haveregistration open right now.
Tell us a little bit about that.
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah.
So this is really kind of theculmination of it all for me is
I was like how, like, how canpeople experience what I'm
experiencing?
Right, I'm writing about it,I'm talking about it to people.
They're like, oh, this reallyresonates.
And I was like, well, how aboutI create a leadership
experience for people toactually come out and use the
(34:27):
ocean as a playground to learnabout their leadership?
If this does sound likeintriguing, if this sounds fun
to people, you can only take somany classes, right, like so we
can learn the theory.
But this is a very differentlearning style.
You aren't going to leave withlike a list of things to change
or do when you get home.
Like this is an experience likeyou go home, change, right,
(34:49):
because we've had this embodiedlearning.
And so Agile Leadership SurfCamp it's a week in Costa Rica,
a small town on the Pacific side.
It's happening in April andenrollment is open right now.
You're going to walk away reallyfeeling more connected to what
I call your inner leader,feeling more ease and confidence
(35:12):
in your ability to navigateconflict, to navigate the
uncertainty, while also stillfinding the beauty, the joy, the
fulfillment, enjoying thejourney.
And so we've got a private surfand yoga lodge.
You'll be learning surfing andyoga from like highly qualified
instructors the same ones whoactually taught me several years
(35:33):
ago and each day we're going toweave together the leadership
learning.
There'll be leadershipprogramming in between the surf
and yoga sessions.
And yeah, just check it's on mywebsite.
You'll find it there.
And really, just have a callwith me.
I'll answer questions anybody'squestions about it, just to
make sure you get a sense ofwhat this is and if it's really
(35:54):
the next right stop for you inyour own leadership growth
journey.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
I can think of many worse places to go than Costa
Rica.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, like one of the so like one of the taglines
I've got is like grow yourleadership in paradise.
Right, Like, why not, you know?
Speaker 1 (36:14):
So if you've never been to Costa Rica before, I'll
just say that it's very easy forthose of us that are born and
raised here in the States.
The states.
You have a very familiarexperience, a lot of people
speak english and it's just veryeasy to travel.
So you almost don't even feellike you're in a foreign country
, except for the absolutelyamazing scenes that you'll see
(36:35):
there yeah, and we make it eveneasier too.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
so this is a really great trip if you're like I.
Also don't want to deal with,like you know, the travel
logistics.
It's like you come in to theairport, where you stay at a
hotel nearby, where they pickyou up at the airport, and then
our private shuttle comes andgets you and brings you to the,
to the town on the Pacific side,and then you know you're in a
kind of a private space thatlike pretty much everything's
(37:00):
handled for you, and then wetake you back to San Jose on
that shuttle at the end of theweek.
So the idea is to make itsimple so that you can just
really be like stress-free, showup, enjoy nature, you know,
soak it all in and just reallybe like present and in the flow.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
That's incredible.
Well, Stephanie, thank you somuch for coming on the show.
I just it's a privilege and anhonor to have you here.
Thank you for spending about ahalf hour with me here, and for
our listeners as well.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
I'm glad we finally got thetiming to work out.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Great, all right, that's it for another episode of
the Agile Within.
This has been Mark Metz.
We'll see you guys next time.
Thanks for joining us foranother episode of the Agile
Within.
If you haven't already, pleasejoin our LinkedIn page to stay
in touch.
(37:59):
Just search for the AgileWithin and please spread the
word with your friends andcolleagues until next time.
This has been your host, markBetts.
Welcome to the Agile Within.
I am your host, mark Metz.
My mission for this podcast isto provide Agile insights into
human values and behaviorsthrough genuine connections.
My guests and I will sharereal-life stories from our Agile
journeys, triumphs, blundersand everything in between, as
(00:29):
well as the lessons that we havelearned.
So get pumped, get rocking.
The Agile Within starts now.
Well, hey there, welcome backto the Agile Within.
This is Mark Metz.
I hope everybody is having anabsolutely fantastic day out
there today.
I certainly am, because I havea guest by the name of Stephanie
(00:50):
Ackerman, who I've beenfollowing for quite a while, and
I'm very honored to have her asa guest.
So, stephanie, welcome to theAgile Within.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
So Stephanie is from Columbus Ohio as our typical
icebreaker here on the show.
If I were coming to ColumbusOhio for a day and had never
been there before, what's onething that I just absolutely
could not miss doing?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
My sense is that, especially knowing a little bit
about you, you got to see OhioStadium.
It's really impressive and Iwill say you don't even have to
be a football fan.
I took a friend of mine therewho's like not even like from
the States, like is not intocollege football, and even she
was super impressed, just likeseeing it.
(01:37):
It's a pretty cool site.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
All right, I'll take you up on that.
Capacity is like over 100,000,right Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
So we're talking big scale here, big scale, big scale
, cool architecture and thenjust it's right on campus too,
so like you get the full collegevibe.
It's not like it's like severalblocks away, which I think you
see sometimes with someuniversities.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Can't wait to come up there and visit and and see a
college football game.
You get tickets and I'll be upthere.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I wish I could get you tickets.
It's hard to get tickets andexpensive.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So Stephanie is a business agility and leadership
coach.
She's a consultant, aprofessional scrum trainer, an
author and an entrepreneur.
She helps teams and leaders useevidence-based approaches to
unlock customer value, createspaces for innovation and
harness the power ofcollaborative teamwork.
(02:33):
Stephanie's also the co-authorof the book Mastering
Professional Scrum.
I can't tell you enough If youhaven't read this book, go out
and get it.
It's just as good of a read asit is a resource material for
later.
Thank you for coming on to theshow.
Our title for the show heretoday is You're Not Going to
(02:57):
Think your Way Into a Wave.
That's an interesting title.
What in the world does notthinking about yourself into a
WAVE?
What does that have to do withagility?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah, so just to give a little context for those who
maybe don't follow my writing,you know I've worked in kind of
traditional organizations,starting with project management
, moving my career towardsagility, and so you know I've
been in kind of the productdevelopment and agility world
for quite a while now.
(03:28):
What I have recently discoveredin the past few years is how
surfing is a powerful accesspoint to more deeply embodying
agility and also like trulyrecognizing and being able to
understand myself as a leader sothat I can show up in ways that
(03:49):
are both more influential andimpactful, but also more ease
for myself as well.
And so this idea that, likeyou're not going to think your
way into a wave, it's a surflesson, and I have a lot of
different surf lessons that Iactually incorporate into
everything I do, how I teach,how I work with clients, what I
(04:12):
write about the connections Imake, because I do feel really
strongly that when we accessdifferent modalities of learning
, and especially when it's in anembodied way and it's something
that's like outside of ournormal day-to-day stressors and
also the ability to trulydisconnect from like a drama and
(04:32):
the constant distractions, tolike really immerse ourselves in
that type of experience, wejust can unlock so much more for
ourselves in a lot of differentways, and so for me, that
connection between agility andour own leadership as change
agents has been huge throughsurfing the past few years, and
so when we say you're not goingto think your way into a wave,
(04:55):
it really touches on a number ofaspects of agility, but one of
the core things is this idea ofsensing and responding.
If you've learned Agile theoryright, like we talk about this
idea of we're doing complex work, right, we're doing creative
work in complex environmentsthat are unpredictable and we're
(05:16):
navigating ambiguity Things aregoing to change and we need to
be responsive to change.
You'll hear sometimes like thisidea of like sensing and
responding as like a leadershipapproach.
There's different theories.
You can see out there that theyuse this terminology, but I'm
like, do people really know whatthat means?
Like, including myself, did Ireally know what that meant when
I first learned it?
(05:36):
And I would say not really.
I don't think so.
Like I knew what the wordsmeant, but to really be able to
embody this idea of sensing andresponding, we talk about
emergence a lot in the agileworld.
Like we need emergent solutions.
Do we know what emergence means, and so the ocean, to me, is
the perfect natural emergentsystem for us to relate to.
(06:00):
That, I think, really doesmirror.
I'll keep using my surfinganalogies.
The waters we swim in arebusiness worlds, right, and
really all aspects of life wherewe're navigating complexity,
uncertainty, ambiguity, thisyou're not going to think your
way into a wave is about.
I can learn the theory.
I can even practice some of theskills.
(06:21):
I can watch surfing instructionvideos.
I can go out on the beach andpractice my pop-up, I can
practice my paddling.
But the reality is, until I'mactually out there trying to
catch waves and like feelingwhat is happening in the water,
what's the speed of the wave?
What's the energy of the wave?
Is there a current?
What's the wind doing?
(06:41):
Like, how am I feeling my bodyon the surfboard right?
How do I sense my body on thesurfboard?
How do I sense the right timingto pop up?
Yeah, I need to know the theory.
I need to have some lessons andsome coaching to help me do it
in the moment.
But you really only learn itthrough just getting out and
paddling out, getting in thosereps, and that means a lot of
not catching waves as you try tocatch waves.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So I'm thinking of another metaphor.
So you and I have talked,stephanie, I'm a big sports guy,
but sports don't necessarilyresonate with everyone.
I've been told that, as I doover sports analogies.
But I think all of thelisteners out there I'm pretty
sure that everybody, or mosteveryone, has either ridden a
(07:24):
bike or helped someone ride abike, or at least seen someone
learning to ride a bike as achild.
You can read books, you canread magazines, look at articles
, you can watch videos, butuntil you actually get on the
bike yourself, feel what itmeans to balance, how you have
to pedal the pedals, what itmeans to go uphill, what it
(07:45):
means to go downhill, yoursensing and responding and
that's where I see thisrelationship between surfing and
agility is that there's so muchunpredictable.
You can try your best, yourdarndest, to learn all the
different techniques away fromthe water, but until you
actually get in the water andare doing it yourself, you're
(08:07):
really not going to learn.
Is that an accurate way tocompare the two?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, I think so, and I do really like the learning
to ride a bike metaphor as well,because what was coming up for
me was like and then you hitgravel and you have to adapt to
how you're riding.
You hit pavement or differenttype of concrete.
You know you got to go over acurb, right?
So there it's.
I think it is a really usefulanalogy as well to use, and
(08:34):
what's interesting to me aboutit is that we talk about this
idea all the time of you know wecan't perfectly plan.
We don't even know what thesolution looks like, so we need
to affect and adapt our waytowards figuring out the
solution.
Yet when you look at whatactually happens in a lot of
organizations and teams, there'sstill this belief that we have
(08:58):
to have the answer.
We have to know exactly what tobuild and we got to like plan
it out, and we might wrap Gromor other agile practice
terminology around it, but we'restill doing predictive, plan
driven work.
It's not a methodology, right,like we figure out the process
that works best for us.
(09:18):
I don't think there's like oneway it's supposed to look, but
it's more like getting curiousabout why are we working the way
we're working Like are we doing?
Are we just taking kind ofthese old patterns that we've
had around planning, predicting,and like wanting to know more
before we build something?
Or like not really being okaywith failure, not really
(09:41):
believing that, like it's okayto say we can't lock in a date
because I mean we could, butthen that means go past the
fluctuary, the truly embracing,like what agility means.
It's hard because these patterns, these beliefs, these ways of
doing things have are ingrainedin us from pretty much all the
systems that we've been immersedin our whole lives, right From
(10:03):
our family systems to educationsystems, to various professional
development and howorganizations typically work.
There's this idea that we cantalk about agility a lot and we
can even be using the practicesand the frameworks, but are we
really working in a way that ishonoring emergence, that is
(10:24):
honoring this idea of sensingand responding?
For me, like there's anotherpiece of this that comes into
play.
So this idea of you're notgoing to think your way into a
wave, like another way to thinkabout that is am I connected to
my full body intelligence or amI in my head?
I bring this into a lot of mywork, this idea of creative
(10:45):
versus reactive leadership.
What I mean by that.
So creative leadership meaning.
Am I open and curious?
Am I present right?
Am I truly present, sensingwhat's happening and committed
to learning Versus?
If I'm reactive, I'm moreclosed, defensive, judging
probably myself, myself, butalso others, judging the
(11:07):
circumstances right.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I would think of it as you have your mind made up.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, and like I'm, committed to getting it right
and I'm like forcing and drivingright.
And so this creative versusreactive just to give you an
example of how it shows up insurfing and I'm guessing you'll
be able to see how this playsout in almost every interaction
we have throughout our day it'slike I could be out going for
waves and just be gettingfrustrated with myself because I
(11:33):
haven't caught a wave in 30minutes.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I can'tbelieve I still haven't caught a
wave yet.
And I'm watching these othersurfers and they're catching
waves and it's like I get madderand more frustrated every wave
they catch.
And I'm just in my head, rightLike, and then I go for a wave
and I miss it because I'm notsensing anything, right Like,
I'm not really sensing theenergy of the wave, I'm not
(11:56):
sensing where my body is on thesurfboard and the right timing
to pop up, so I'm probably goingto keep missing waves.
So when I get into that reactivestate I'm not going to catch
any waves.
I'm also not learning anythingbecause I'm not really sensing
what's happening.
I'm in my head, right Like I'mnot thinking.
I mean I'm saying, think yourway into a wave, but it's really
I'm judging and spinningstories in my head about this
(12:20):
ocean, like I don't know why theconditions are so bad, or
comparing myself to othersurfers, or just judging myself,
for you know, not being betterthan I am right now.
Right, and that doesn't helpyou catch the wave.
So that's another way that thesurf lesson shows up.
You're not going to think yourway into your, into a wave.
It's this idea that I need tonot just be in my head in that
(12:43):
state of assumptions, stories,judgments and truly just whoo,
like let me breathe, let me bemore grounded and calm and be
open of, like, what's availablehere, like how do I get present
and really start sensing?
Because that's when you'regoing to catch the wave.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
I love the image that I'm getting here, because the
image that I'm getting, ifyou're thinking about how not to
do this, I can think about you,stephanie, giving a surf lesson
and you giving the advice todon't think yourself into a wave
.
So one of your students getsout there, they get on their
surfboard, they jump in thewater and they're going and
(13:23):
they're like well, I didn't planeverything.
I'm doing what Stephanie said.
I'm not trying to think myselfinto it, but over and over, I'm
not successful.
Why am I not successful?
I'm doing what was told.
But there's doing what was toldand there's the word that you
said that I like is are youembodying that?
So, are you truly sensing, areyou learning from what you
(13:47):
experienced before?
Because the mindset of, well,I'm doing what I was told, I'm
doing it right.
Well, are you really?
Are you really?
You may be going through themotions, and that's where we can
do Agile by the book and thinkthat we're doing things right.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Are we truly learning by the book and think that
we're doing things right.
Are we truly learning Right?
Yeah, and this you know the wayyou're describing it.
It's funny to me too, becauseit's like this is how you learn
to surf right, like you learnthe individual, like kind of
micro skills I like to call itright and we all have micro
skills and all the work we'redoing all the time out in the
world, and it's like you got tobe able to put them all together
like intuitively in the moment,like that's when you really
(14:26):
learn to surf, and thenconditions are different and
then you're not going to be goodat these other conditions,
right, until again you get outthere, you practice, you put
that together, you start to, youstart to get like an intuitive
wisdom around how you willrespond in the water the next
time the conditions are likethis, respond in the water the
next time the conditions arelike this.
(14:46):
And so it's very similar, likewhen we're dealing with like
conflict and in ourorganizations we're dealing with
failure or some extrauncertainty, some something's
happening and people are worriedabout it, all of those things
in our real world, workenvironments, or just like the
stress of like somebody wants wehave to give them a date, like
the client wants a date.
Those things all kind of drawthe same type of reactivity that
(15:07):
you might experience out in theocean, like a little bit of
fear, a little bit of worry, alittle bit of oh my gosh, I got
to get it right.
Why am I not getting it right?
But the other thing that wascoming to mind for me, as you
were describing that is yeah,that's why you need people to
help you.
You know, when you have a surfcoach, that person is there to
help you get the timing right.
They're there to tell you like,okay, start paddling now, start
(15:28):
paddling now, pop up like standup, stand up.
During that experience, in thiswhat I'll call creative state,
for your body to also then belearning the feeling while the
person has helped your brainunderstand what you're doing in
the moment.
And I think it's very similarto kind of what we do in the
(15:52):
world working with teams andcreating products.
It's important, I think, tohave that support and it doesn't
have to be like a formal coach,always right.
It can be helping each other interms of like, what skills I
have, what skills you have, andwhere we're trying to grow our
capacity.
But also sometimes you do needlike hey, we need an actual
person who can be here and tellus like okay, paddle harder,
(16:16):
paddle harder.
Like stand up.
One of the things for me thatis really helpful is when
somebody else is pointing out myreactivity in a way of like
breathe.
So like you'll notice like youmight be getting a little
constricted on the surfboard andit's like your surf coach is
going to know that and just belike hey, you're doing great,
(16:37):
but you need to breathe.
You've got this look ofdetermination.
What happens if you smile rightLike let's not take ourselves
too seriously out here?
And I think that's anotherreally core leadership principle
and I think I first heard thatI don't remember if it was like
co-active or consciousleadership group.
Not taking ourselves tooseriously is so important in
(16:58):
leadership and I think itmatters for I mean like the
actual concept of working inagile ways too.
I think it matters for I meanthe actual concept of working in
agile ways too, because it'slike when we start taking
ourselves too seriously, thatputs us right back into.
I need to get it right.
We can say that we believefailure is learning and we
should fail fast all day long.
But the question is do wereally believe that and do we
live into that?
(17:19):
What I see a lot of times isthat we don't.
And I'm including myself inthat.
I'm an entrepreneur, I run abusiness as well and I work with
teams and organizations and I,even though I do this for a
living like I teach this stufffor a living it's like there's
no end point with yourleadership, like this is a
journey, this idea of surfing.
(17:41):
It's introduced like really core, embodied things that I now can
see the patterns more clearlyand I can notice like, oh, like,
what happens when I getreactive.
Well, I notice when I'm in theocean, I have thoughts like this
and here's how I respond andhere's what it feels like in my
body, versus when I'm out therejust treating this surf session
(18:03):
as like wow, look, how awesomeit is that I get to be out here
on this beautiful day looking atthe mountains and the palm
trees behind me and out herehaving fun and learning, and
like every, every way of attemptis an experiment and we see
what happens and we inspect andadapt.
And you know, oh, I wiped out.
Well, my friend just saw me andwe're going to laugh about it
(18:26):
and I feel like, if we can takethat approach to our work,
stresses and challenges as well,right, when we stay open, we
are more likely to see moreopportunities right how we can
adapt.
What did we learn from that?
To see more opportunities righthow we can adapt.
What did we learn from thatVersus just being in this really
(18:47):
constricted state of reactivitywhere we're just like worrying
or panicking or like doingthings that are actually going
to hurt us even further?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Does Shuha Ri come into any elements of your
lessons of learning to surf andapplying those to leadership?
It's an interesting I mean Ithink it can kind of apply to
surf and applying those toleadership.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
That's an interesting I mean.
I think it can kind of apply toanything right Like the concept
of shuhari.
I will say, though, like I amnot like teaching people to surf
, that is not my like.
So me running an agileleadership surf camp I am
responsible for the leadershipprogramming and like weaving it
(19:23):
all, weaving and experiencethrough surfing and yoga, and
like leadership programming,actual people who are certified
surf instructors are the oneswho do the teaching.
But what I will say is, whenI'm out there, like with friends
, we can support each other.
I also have a relationship withthe person who's been coaching
(19:43):
me for years, who I firstlearned from where like also, by
the way, like get a formal surflessons I reach a peak and I'm
kind of like I don't know, man,I just can't seem.
I feel like I've reached thispoint and or maybe I'm going
backwards.
I need a coach to just likehelp me for a bit, so I'll get
some coaching.
But I see my coach out in thewater all the time, what I
always appreciate and this isactually, I think, an important
(20:06):
lesson for leadership andagility too.
He will ask me if I wantcoaching, like if he sees
something.
He always asks for my consentbefore, like he just starts
coaching me, always asks for myconsent before, like he just
starts coaching me, and I thinkso.
Like coaching is like a wholeprofession, right, and I do
think that in the agile world,what I see a lot is not
(20:29):
necessarily being fully inalignment with the profession of
coaching and more treating itas a person who is an expert and
is going to teach people andconsult and maybe facilitate,
and there isn't as much truecoaching as there could be.
And so I think that's aninteresting piece that we've
stumbled into around, like thisidea leadership we haven't
(20:51):
really established this.
We're all leaders.
We take responsibility for ourimpact.
We're all co-creating our world, right.
So I don't think of leader asjust a position of authority or
a job title.
I think we're all co-creatingour world, right.
So I don't think of leader asjust a position of authority or
a job title.
I think we're all leaders andwe all have the ability to kind
of co-create our world.
How we show up is going tocreate an impact, and so if we
(21:14):
show up in a reactive way, thathas impacts versus showing up in
a creative way.
This idea of coaching andconsent I think it's important
that we're clear when we areworking with teams.
What is my role?
What hat am I wearing right now?
Because sometimes, especiallylike if you're a scrum master,
you might be a person whofacilitates, teaches, coaches,
(21:38):
maybe is involved in doing someof the work as well, depending
on what hats you're wearing, andso I think it's useful to think
about talking about when are wecoaching, when are we advising,
choosing the right thing, and Ithink it's an intuitive choice
to some degree of like what'shappening, what's at stake,
what's important, but also menot deciding what's best for
(21:58):
everyone.
What's at stake, what'simportant.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
But also me not deciding what's best for
everyone.
Context matters when it comesto coaching.
And I would imagine, when itcomes to surfing, you would say
conditions matter, whether it beatmospheric or weather or ocean
conditions, or even your ownpersonal health conditions, that
all matters.
And it's very similar that youcan't just go in and say, ok,
I've got my five steps, I'mgoing to go in and coach this
(22:23):
person.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Right, yeah, exactly, and I do think a lot of us, you
know there's something to besaid.
When you first are learningthings, you maybe learn a
process, you learn a set ofsteps.
However, the more we practicethis and practice intentionally,
so we're like very clear aboutwhat I'm doing, I'm being, I'm
being very mindful of reflectingon okay, how is this going?
(22:46):
Okay, do I need to do somethingdifferently next time?
Right, so that's what I mean byintentional practice and that's
what you know.
You do that out in the ocean toget better, but we do it out in
our real world as well, withthe teams and leaders that we
work with.
Then it becomes more intuitiveand you kind of have like this
big bag of tools that you have,that you just kind of sense.
(23:08):
Oh, I see what's happening hereand I feel like this might be
the challenge and I'm going totry something and I might get it
wrong, and I have to be okay.
I have to be not attached tothat decision.
I mean I have to fully commit.
I got to go all in.
This is true of surfing.
You cannot halfway commit tocatching a wave.
You can, you can, I should sayand you will fall.
(23:31):
It's like you got to go in, yougot to fully commit to when you
go to for that wave and go tostand up, but you also can't be
attached to the outcome.
That's an important piece ofagility that helps us remember
we cannot control outcomes,can't?
We cannot guarantee an outcome,and I think that's one of the
(23:53):
things that leads us to notcreating goals that are based on
outcomes, and we see goals thatare more like outputs.
How many features can wedeliver in this?
Release right and measuringvelocity and all sorts of things
that actually lead to a lot ofunintended consequences.
I think that happens becausewe're afraid that if our goal is
(24:16):
something we can't control orguarantee, I can't have that as
my goal, because then I can'tguarantee my success, and so
that's another piece that hasreally come to life for me in
the ocean as well is realizingwhere I'm attaching my
worthiness to some version ofhow we measure success.
(24:37):
Or I can have an intention ofI'd really like to try to catch
10 waves during the surf lesson.
Okay, great, but if I only careabout 10 waves, that doesn't
tell me about how I improvedsince the last time.
It doesn't tell me about howI'm adjusting in the moment,
based on the conditions, itdoesn't tell me that, hey, that
(24:59):
wasn't even possible todaybecause the ocean was so chaotic
and it was actually amazingthat I even caught three waves.
So there's just so muchavailable in that, as we're
talking through this, I'm hopingthe through lines are coming
through of where we utilizecertain practices in the agile
space, like talking aboutoutcomes over outputs.
(25:20):
So there's tools that we canuse that will help us live into
some of these surf lessons.
But we have to really beconscious of it.
And then we have to really bedoing our own inner work to
start recognizing like, oh like.
Where is that showing up for me?
What is preventing me fromstaying open and curious in this
(25:42):
moment?
What is my trigger?
How do I start to notice thosepatterns, recognize sooner, so
that I can shift if I'm ready toright?
It's not all about like I alwayshave to be in this creative
state of being as a human being.
Your brain is not wired thatway, you know.
Again, it's not the goal oflike, always being in a creative
state of leadership.
(26:02):
It's recognizing.
Where am I more frequently,being more aware and be oh wait,
I just realize, and maybe yousense it through your body, like
I know.
For me it's like my shoulderstightening up.
Sometimes, depending on what'shappening, I'll feel something
in my stomach Like I'll justhave like a knot in my stomach.
I can feel my face getting hotOne.
(26:40):
It felt safe to find thosepatterns outside of my work
context, but then what Irealized is that, oh, those
patterns are showing up in otherparts of my life and now I can
start to recognize them soonerand I can go back to the ocean
in my brain, in my body, even ifI'm like in a Zoom session with
somebody right, like I can kindof have that like oh, okay, the
(27:04):
ocean, remember the ocean.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
I'm going to say something and tell me if you
agree or you disagree.
But part of the metaphor thatyou're setting you're talking
about patterns and you'retalking about different tools
that you can use when surfingand relating those to leadership
and agility and coaching isthat those patterns are great,
the tools are great, but unlessyou actually use them, they're
not going to be of any value toyou.
(27:33):
And just because you use themdoesn't mean you're necessarily
going to use them correctly orin the right situation.
So I'm thinking of a differentmetaphor of if I'm using a tool
to fix something.
If I'm using a pneumatic gunthat hammers nails, until I
actually use it and getproficient with it, it's
(27:56):
probably not going to beeffective to me, but that
doesn't mean I use it in everysituation.
I don't go in and maybe try touse a nail gun in my home to
nail a picture, because I'llprobably punch a hole through
the wall If that's the only toolin your tool bag.
And I see that because I hadsomeone talk to me about a
situation where they wereworking with a customer and the
(28:17):
customer came, or the thisperson came into a new company
and they installed safe Becausethat's what they knew that's
what they were comfortable with,that's what they had seen
successful before.
So they installed safe.
But guess what?
This was a company of like ahundred people total and the it
department was like maybe 30 or40.
(28:38):
Are you really using the besttool in the right situation?
So, as you're practicing thesedifferent tools, techniques and
looking at these patterns whenyou're surfing, it's not that
you know how to use them, it'swhen to use them right.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Right.
It's that idea of likepurposefully practicing and
you're sensing right.
The sensing and respondingstill comes into play there.
So, you're like understandingand getting feedback of like oh,
I tried this, here's whathappened.
Okay, here's what I.
I'm going to try this otherthing right, because now I sense
something different ishappening here.
You could even say, likepicking the right surfboard for
(29:16):
the conditions.
That brings us back to the toolmetaphor.
It's really interesting, Likewhere I surf it's it's not a
beach that's really good forshortboarding, yet there's a lot
of people who are justinsistent on shortboarding at
this beach and they can do itLike don't get me wrong, they
can do it and I'm not judgingthat they're choosing to do that
.
(29:36):
But it's interesting to me and Iwas just having this
conversation around, what's thesurf lesson here?
And it was like there's thisidea of like a soul surfer.
I learned about this when Ifirst started like to really
surf and there was this dude outthere who was in his seventies
or something and this man couldwave any single way.
(29:57):
I was like he's so good and Iwas.
And then that's when I learnedhe used to be a professional
surfer a while ago and he was sokind to me, like and I'm out
there just learning and failing,all over the place.
He was always so supportive ofme, but what I always noticed is
that he would ride that waveall the way to the beat and it
(30:17):
was like he just like would flowon it, Whereas a lot of times a
surfer will like kick out ofthe wave early so that they
don't have to paddle as far backout or something, and like some
days you need to do that likeif it's real big, you need to
make choices about that, becausethat is like a real, a real
thing.
But this idea of he just wantedto like use what the ocean was
(30:40):
giving him fully, and it waslike an interesting idea of like
you're dancing with what'shappening, creating with the
ocean, creating from what theocean is giving you, Versus if
you are on a shortboard in wavesthat are not very powerful, you
kind of got to jump on theboard to like force more speed
(31:02):
for you to keep going.
I was just kind of likethinking.
I was like, oh, this is reallyinteresting, this idea, and to
me this again relates to bothleadership and agility what is
here and am I resisting?
What is, or am I creating withwhat we have today?
Right, so we might getchallenging conditions in front
of us.
Right, we can look at.
The pandemic was obviously likea big example, a big disrupting
(31:25):
event.
It's like what organizationscreated with that versus who was
just fully resistant and notrecognizing the need to do
something different, to change.
And I don't mean that to saylike, oh, if a business went
under during the pandemic, theywere resistant.
That's not true either.
Sometimes you just fail.
You can do everything in yourpower and you don't get to the
(31:48):
end desire, but it's like canyou look back and say we did
everything we could, we wereobserving, we had this data, we
tried this, we tried that.
To me, it's like this idea thatyou cannot guarantee your
success when we really getcomfortable with that and really
live it.
To me, that's when you unlockthe benefits of agility because
(32:10):
you're able to look and see whatare the opportunities, what's
really happening.
I'm not attached to this thing.
If it's not working and we'rerunning experiments and seeing
that it's not working, thenwe're going to do something
different.
It's a really powerful tool toembrace that.
You know we can't guarantee theoutcomes and you know I talk
(32:30):
about this other surf lessonlike we cannot measure our
success by how many waves wecatch, and that is hinting at
like things.
Like we need to measure outcomes, not just outputs.
But it's much bigger than that.
We need to change ourrelationship with even the idea
of measuring success, becausethat sends us straight into like
(32:50):
judgment and scarcity andfeeling at threat.
Then we're leading fromreactivity again.
So like we don't want to attachlike our worthiness or
happiness to anything likeexternal from us.
Like that, and especially inthe agile space where we talk
about, you know we can'tguarantee, we can't control.
(33:12):
It's like, yeah, but are we?
Speaker 1 (33:13):
actually acting that way.
All right, Stephanie, this hasbeen a great conversation.
I want to leave a few minutesfor the end here and want to
make sure that if our listenersout there want to get in touch
with you, that they can.
What's the best way for them toreach out to you?
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I have a newsletter.
That is the perfect place ifyou want to read more about my
content.
You know I like to write aboutyou know a wide range of topics.
There's always a connection toagility and leadership, but also
, like kind of to me, that'slife as well.
So my website, agilesockscom.
You can sign up for mynewsletter there and you can
(33:47):
also connect on LinkedIn.
I am fairly active there aswell.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Great.
We'll put those links in theshow notes to make it easy for
everyone to define those.
So, stephanie, I understandyou've got an Agile Leadership
Surf Camp, so you haveregistration open right now.
Tell us a little bit about that.
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah.
So this is really kind of theculmination of it all for me is
I was like how, like, how canpeople experience what I'm
experiencing?
Right, I'm writing about it,I'm talking about it to people.
They're like, oh, this reallyresonates.
And I was like, well, how aboutI create a leadership
experience for people toactually come out and use the
(34:27):
ocean as a playground to learnabout their leadership?
If this does sound likeintriguing, if this sounds fun
to people, you can only take somany classes, right, like so we
can learn the theory.
But this is a very differentlearning style.
You aren't going to leave withlike a list of things to change
or do when you get home.
Like this is an experience likeyou go home, change, right,
(34:49):
because we've had this embodiedlearning.
And so Agile Leadership SurfCamp it's a week in Costa Rica,
a small town on the Pacific side.
It's happening in April andenrollment is open right now.
You're going to walk away reallyfeeling more connected to what
I call your inner leader,feeling more ease and confidence
(35:12):
in your ability to navigateconflict, to navigate the
uncertainty, while also stillfinding the beauty, the joy, the
fulfillment, enjoying thejourney.
And so we've got a private surfand yoga lodge.
You'll be learning surfing andyoga from like highly qualified
instructors the same ones whoactually taught me several years
(35:33):
ago and each day we're going toweave together the leadership
learning.
There'll be leadershipprogramming in between the surf
and yoga sessions.
And yeah, just check it's on mywebsite.
You'll find it there.
And really, just have a callwith me.
I'll answer questions anybody'squestions about it, just to
make sure you get a sense ofwhat this is and if it's really
(35:54):
the next right stop for you inyour own leadership growth
journey.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
I can think of many worse places to go than Costa
Rica.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, like one of the so like one of the taglines
I've got is like grow yourleadership in paradise.
Right, Like, why not, you know?
Speaker 1 (36:14):
So if you've never been to Costa Rica before, I'll
just say that it's very easy forthose of us that are born and
raised here in the States.
The states.
You have a very familiarexperience, a lot of people
speak english and it's just veryeasy to travel.
So you almost don't even feellike you're in a foreign country
, except for the absolutelyamazing scenes that you'll see
(36:35):
there yeah, and we make it eveneasier too.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
so this is a really great trip if you're like I.
Also don't want to deal with,like you know, the travel
logistics.
It's like you come in to theairport, where you stay at a
hotel nearby, where they pickyou up at the airport, and then
our private shuttle comes andgets you and brings you to the,
to the town on the Pacific side,and then you know you're in a
kind of a private space thatlike pretty much everything's
(37:00):
handled for you, and then wetake you back to San Jose on
that shuttle at the end of theweek.
So the idea is to make itsimple so that you can just
really be like stress-free, showup, enjoy nature, you know,
soak it all in and just reallybe like present and in the flow.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
That's incredible.
Well, Stephanie, thank you somuch for coming on the show.
I just it's a privilege and anhonor to have you here.
Thank you for spending about ahalf hour with me here, and for
our listeners as well.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
I'm glad we finally got thetiming to work out.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Great, all right, that's it for another episode of
the Agile Within.
This has been Mark Metz.
We'll see you guys next time.
Thanks for joining us foranother episode of the Agile
Within.
If you haven't already, pleasejoin our LinkedIn page to stay
in touch.
(37:59):
Just search for the AgileWithin and please spread the
word with your friends andcolleagues until next time.
This has been your host, markBetts.
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