July 19, 2023 • 40 mins
Have you ever wondered how diet culture, MLM culture, and mommy wine culture are interconnected? This convo really made me think!
In my latest episode, I sit down with Emily Paulson, author, founder of Sober Mom Squad, and recovery advocate, to uncover how these systems prey on women and moms, promoting unrealistic expectations and perpetuating the need for support and self-improvement.
As we navigate through the 99.7% failure rate of MLMs and the damaging effects of diet culture on our mental health and self-worth, Emily shares her personal experiences with these systems and how she discovered their deceptive marketing strategies.
We also dive into the importance of having open, honest conversations about these topics, and how an "all food is available" mentality can break the cycle of restriction and perfectionism.
In the end, we speak about her understanding of what diet culture is and how our size, the number on the scale, and the food we eat does not equate to our worthiness as people, leading her to ditch the scale as a way to move away from diet culture.
I enjoyed speaking with Emily and relating to her as a mom, trying to ensure we don't pass on these damaging messages from diet culture to our children. I hope you enjoy our conversation, too!
Bio:
Emily Lynn Paulson is the author of Highlight Real: Finding Honesty and Recovery Beyond the Filtered Life, and Hey, Hun: Sales, Sisterhood, Supremacy, and the Other Lies Behind Multi Level Marketing . She has given two powerful TEDx talks, both challenging the status quo of parenting, alcohol use, and feminism as we know it. Paulson has also been featured in major publications such as the Today Show, New York Times, Washington Post, The Seattle Times, Chicago Tribune, Next Question with Katie Couric, and the Tamron Hall Show. She resides in Central Oregon with her husband and their five children.
Links:
Instagram & TikTok: @emilylynnpaulson
https://www.sobermomsquad.com/
Resources:
- Hey, Hun: Sales, Sisterhood, Supremacy, and the Other Lies Behind Multilevel Marketing - Emily Lynn Paulson
- Highlight Real: Finding Honesty & Recovery Beyond the Filtered Life - Emily Lynn Paulson
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi and welcome to The Air We Breathe.
I'm your host, heatherSayers-Laman.
I'm a certified intuitiveeating counselor, national Board
Certified Health and WellnessCoach, certified personal
trainer and weight-inclusivewell-being program consultant.
The Air We Breathe is a podcastsharing stories of individual
experiences in diet culture.
Some guests have recentlybecome aware of diet culture,
(00:23):
while others are well-versed inthe impact and have created a
career in advocacy and equity.
No story is more worthy thananother.
The goal is to help peopleunderstand that they are not
alone in their struggles, andthe systems that create these
issues impact us all.
This podcast contains talkabout eating disorders and
disordered eating.
(00:43):
We do minimize mentions ofspecific behaviors and numbers,
but it's still a topicnonetheless.
There also could be some swearsand or adult language here.
Choose wisely if those areproblematic for you.
So I'm here today with EmilyPaulson And Emily, why don't you
just jump right in and tell mea little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Sure, so I am an author.
I have a book I wrote aboutthree years ago and another
that's coming out in three weeks, and I run a group called Sober
Mom Squad for Moms in Recovery.
So I'm a recovery advocate.
I'm also a mom of five, a wife,and, yeah, all of that in my
vast spare time.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Hmm, absolutely I can imagine how much spare time you
have.
I was really interested inhaving you here because I'm so
interested in kind of thethrough lines with diet culture
and then MLM culture, but alsokind of like the boozy mom
culture I don't know if you havea name for that.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, wine mom culture or mommy wine culture.
Yeah, i think the through lineis they're all trying to fill
the same need, like there's thisidea that we have to do it all
and we're not doing enough, andthere's this elusive like thing
that we're missing And we havethis need to escape and we don't
(02:11):
have a village, and so we'reoffered these really crappy
solutions that don't fixanything.
We're offered alcohol to likenumb us, and we're offered diets
to distract us and make usthink that our smaller bodies
will be better, and we have MLMsthat promise us utopia and
(02:31):
financial freedom and theyactually have a 99.7% failure
rate.
So I think it's this.
It all stems from this lack ofhaving actual, reasonable
supports for women and moms inour country.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
It absolutely makes so much sense.
And I think when I joinedFacebook so I've been off of
Facebook, I think since 2017cause I was like this is a
dumpster fire.
But I was on it for a while andreally enjoyed it And some of
the things I thought were mostpeculiar are the things you talk
about, And I will say I grew upwith an alcoholic mother, So
(03:10):
the cute Rose all day anddrinking wine I always, you know
, hit me a little different,cause I was like, yeah, I don't
know that that is as cute as youthink it is.
It's so impactful on your kidsAnd it's also really interesting
.
My kids are gonna, say, 20 and22.
(03:34):
Now, I just forgot how old myson was And my 20 year old when
he was a teenager.
We have these sort offamily-ish functions on a
different side And he said to mehe said you know, you're the
only adult that doesn't drinkand drink a lot at these
functions, And it is not aconversation.
(03:56):
They have known they come fromalcoholism.
This is something we watch outfor And I thought it was so
interesting that he was so awareof the drinking that was going
on around him.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah, yeah, i mean, kids see and know so much more
than you give them credit for.
It's you know, they absorb allthe messages they get from the
media and TV shows.
And then you know we tell themlike don't drink, don't drink,
don't do drugs, and then we justingest alcohol at every event,
(04:31):
every social function, everybirthday party, and it's the
mixed messaging that can bereally damaging, and it's really
not a matter of whether youdrink or not.
That's one thing I always say.
It's like you don't have to bea sober person to have an
impactful, really good,meaningful conversation with
your kids.
It's you know, are you talkingabout it at all?
(04:51):
And a lot of parents are afraidto talk about it because they
don't want to confront their ownusage.
They don't want to wonder whatthat says about them, that they
can't go to a brunch withouthaving a mimosa, that they can't
have a Super Bowl party withouthaving a keg, and that's
uncomfortable, Interesting, AndI also, like Facebook,
(05:11):
introduced me to kind of MLMs,which I used to be solely in
fitness.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
And you know, I moved into health coaching And I
thought it was like the wildestthing, like people, because I
actually owned a gym at the timeAnd people were like Hey, hey,
hun, Did you want to?
And it was all this beach bodystuff, And I was so perplexed I
was like I don't even understand, like to your point of the 99%,
(05:40):
Like how does this even makesense?
And like then you want me tohave a job as, like DMing people
and selling them shakes, Like Idon't.
You know I'm very snootyMcSnoodyerson about my master's
in exercise science, And so,like, looking at that whole
thing, I was like so now you'rea coach, like you used to be a
(06:02):
bank teller but now you're afitness coach.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yep, Yeah, you bought a business kit And now you're a
health coach.
Like how does that work?
Yeah, there's no training, novetting.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Right, yeah, so very, very interesting.
So I always like find the spacevery interesting because it has
been a head scratcher to me fora while.
Yeah Well, tell me yourunderstanding of diet culture.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I think.
for me, it's this overarchingbelief that our size or the
foods we eat should dictate,like our worth and our ability
to get services, healthcare,jobs and be treated the same as
everybody else.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yes, So much, what is your first memory or your first
experience of diet culture?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
My very first memory was in sixth grade And I
remember this vividly because Idon't remember up to that point
ever really understandingdieting or why people would lose
weight or anything like that.
you know, i just ate food andwas blissfully unaware of any of
that.
And yet I was in the 80s whenthere was dexatrim and slim fast
(07:13):
and it was.
I knew about it, but we hadmandatory, you know, weigh-ins
every year with a school nurseright in elementary school, and
I happened to have lost fivepounds from the year before.
you know who knows, hadn'tgrown like who knows why.
I didn't think about it, ididn't care.
And I just mentioned it to afriend and I was like, oh, yeah,
(07:33):
i lost five pounds from lastyear.
And she grabbed my shouldersand she looked at me and she was
like, oh, my God,congratulations, good job.
And that was my first, you know.
I was like, why is shecongratulating me?
And then it was like, oh,that's a good thing to weigh
less.
And I really internalize that,i really remember that.
(07:54):
And that is when I then reallystarted noticing like, oh, we
have slim fast in the cabinet.
or, you know, there's all thesediet programs and workout
videos, and you know, then as Igot older and middle school and
high school, it was the VictoriaSecret catalogs, and so that's,
that was really what I thinkopened my eyes to it as a child.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Interesting.
I always think it's so becausefor most people I talk to it's
some comment in some way,because really, a sixth grader
losing five pounds over a yearas a cause for alarm of like, oh
, is there a growth problem?
Or, you know, is there an issue?
So it's really interesting, andalso like from a fellow sixth
(08:36):
grader that she had internalizedthat message enough to know.
Like, this is the goal, This iswhat we're going for, yeah,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Well, in what ways do you think diet culture has been
the most damaging for you?
I think again.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
It was really in my high school and college years
that there was a very onedimensional standard of beauty.
You know, around the late 90sIt was again like the Victoria
Secret model the very thin, longtorso, no body fat, huge boobs,
look natural very natural.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yes, very natural.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
And that's what I really wanted to strive for And
that's when I started, you know,trying different diets And you
know I did like the whole Atkinsthing And you know it.
Just, it began my, i think,really just the orthorexia of
knowing how many calories andeverything and and over
exercising.
(09:36):
That was really, i think it wasthe visual of.
There was only one standard ofbeauty shown in the media,
magazines, anywhere.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yes, Well, is there?
are there any ways that youfeel like diet culture was
beneficial for you?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
I mean, i guess, in a hindsight, like I did learn a
lot about nutrition, like like Ilearned and I don't know that
this is necessarily a good thingbut I learned about what
carbohydrates were And even if Ididn't understand really the
good and bad about them, it wasmore an oh how can I lose weight
(10:14):
way.
But I knew what vegetables hadvitamin A in them and what
vegetables had fiber, and so I Isought out to learn more, but I
think my intention was towardsweight loss and not necessarily
any type of health.
But I, but I still learned itall the same.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, which I think is interesting.
Like, as a coach, i certainly,when somebody comes to me, i
don't really generally questiontheir knowledge.
I feel like you probably knowmore than you would ever need to
know.
And you also have all of thisconflicting information about
(10:53):
you know, just about fiber, like, oh no, it really needs to be
here.
Oh no, you know you're going todie if it's only here.
I mean, you know these likewildly different messages, but I
do think that that is like suchan interesting side effect.
One is that everybody is anexpert but that just in your
spare time, instead of learninga new hobby or anything like
(11:15):
that, you're just like well,maybe I should be memorizing all
of this data.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, and I think learning really early that these
things are always changing.
I mean, you remember, likesnack wells, the whole craze of
like low fat, everything was lowfat, no fat, and so the goal
was like to find foods with nofat, low fat, but they had a ton
of sugar in them.
So, and then they were like, oh, no, that's not good, now you
(11:42):
don't want sugar.
And now, oh, eggs are bad.
No, now eggs are good.
I mean I can't tell you howmany things went back and forth
that I finally kind of startedto realize like maybe none of
this actually matters, maybenobody knows anything, and we're
just like throwing spaghetti ona wall to see what sticks.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, and I think that's the.
I mean, you know it's a zerosum game.
There is no winning in dietculture, because even if you're
like nailing my nutrition doingso well, it's like well, what
about your hydration?
Are you doing enough of that?
Are the?
are your supplements the rightsupplements, or what about this
spot?
I mean, there's alwayssomething else that you need to
(12:20):
be striving to change or perfect, certainly in everything that I
ever see.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, yeah, there's never a good enough.
It's.
you know well.
what about the seed oils you'reusing And what about?
it's like wait, what do youmean?
And and and a lot of the.
you know I had got my degree inchemistry And so a lot of the
things I started seeing after Igraduated from college were very
much in conflict with thethings I understood about
(12:48):
science.
And I'm like okay, so peopleare extrapolating these really
really bizarre studies that aredone on rats that actually
didn't amount to anything Andthey're extrapolating them to
everybody.
Like you know, red wine is goodfor you, like that whole thing.
that's actually not true.
And you know, aspartame causescancer and all of these things
(13:09):
that you know.
again, i think things startwith like a shred of truth and a
shred of evidence, but nothingever comes of it And people just
blow it up to serve their needto sell you products.
That's.
I really started seeing that itwas all just marketing.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Oh, that's nice that you had the the heads up.
Yeah, maybe this isn't true.
Yeah, well, tell me about.
Obviously you were in.
Well, how long were you in theMLM that you were in?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Almost seven years Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
So then, what presence did diet culture play
within that environment?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, So the particular MLM I was involved in
wasn't a health product MLM, Itwas like a skincare beauty
brand.
So it definitely perpetuatedyou know, the ideal beauty
standards.
Still, like all of the modelswere all still thin and, you
know, conventionally attractive.
Most of the consultants werewhite, thin, conventionally
(14:10):
attractive, right.
So there was still like a moldof diet culture within that
model.
So I think it was.
it was more just it kind ofbastardized what was already
present in the culture And youknow, MLM people tend to really
support other MLM people and MLMproducts.
(14:33):
So there was a lot of crossover.
Like I purchased, you know,essential oils from MLMs and I
purchased the cleanses and stufffrom MLM.
So I think there's a lot ofcrossover there And I think,
beyond that, I think MLMs reallyhit all the pain points of
motherhood.
And you know, hey, you'relonely, Here's an option for you
(14:53):
.
Oh, you need money, Here's anoption for you.
You need to lose baby weight?
Here's an option for you.
And it packages it all together.
No matter what the products are, It's all about just finding
something that fits.
And I think diet culture is areally sinister way to do that
And a really sinister way thatMLMs do that.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yes, i definitely think diet culture preys on that
vulnerability of being a womanone, and that your body may have
changed too, and that obviouslyyour moral imperative is to get
that body back, if not betterthan it was Before.
And I feel like that dietculture messaging is, like it
(15:37):
means, so wildly pervasive thatobviously we celebrate oh, she
snapped back, and I could seehow that would really kind of
having that message intertwinedwith the no community And
certainly nobody's saying like,yeah, your body would change
after having a kid And when youget to menopause, like your body
will probably change again, andlike that's okay, that's what
(15:57):
happens, that there's it feelslike and you could tell me it
feels like within thosecommunities that nobody's saying
that there's always some kindof intervention that you need to
be doing.
Oh, yeah, you always need to beimproving yourself.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Like you're never.
I think that the overarchingmessage is that you're never
good enough as you are.
There's something that you canbe approving, whether it's
improving, whether it's yourlooks or your finances, or your
social network, or you know.
Whatever It's that you're justnot good enough on your own.
And instead of figuring out howdo we embrace ourselves and how
do we love ourselves as we are,or just recognize that how we
(16:37):
look has nothing to do with howsuccessful or happy we are,
Let's, you know, make this intosomething we can purchase and
package Yikes which I mean it'sso easy to look around and see
all of those different piecesBecause I think I've been an
entrepreneur for, you know, over20 some years, and that sort of
(16:57):
hustle culture.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Again, it's like you know, are you, are you doing
something about this?
It's like you know they're allinto the tap dancing.
that you know you need to bespending more plates doing more,
and then you'll reach yourfinal destination of massive
worthiness.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, what sources of dietculture do you feel are the most
(17:23):
persistent and influential?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I think the messages are still, the size of your body
is equal to health or equal toworth.
I think that's something that'sjust people don't even realize.
Realize how much theyinternalize that message.
You know when, when you seesomeone and they've lost weight,
you know you're like tocongratulate them instead of
(17:45):
thinking, oh no, i hope they'reokay.
I wonder if they've been sick,or maybe they've had a
miscarriage, or you know, maybethey're getting cancer treatment
, or maybe there's no reason,maybe their body's just changed
for no reason, but that it'sthat smaller is better and
bigger.
There must be a problem, right,that ultimately, there must be
(18:05):
something wrong with the body.
And the whole thought of likethat, like the obesity epidemic
which is there's so much to that, that is just junk science,
that people just come indifferent body sizes and it that
(18:29):
really doesn't equate to theirhealth.
So, yeah, i think, though, thisconstant push to like know what
people weigh and know their BMI, and it's like, when we really
investigate, like where did thateven come from and why is that
a thing And there's really nolike scientific, medical basis
to it, other than like givingmedication at the right dose,
(18:49):
other than that, like you reallyshouldn't need to go get
weighed at the doctor's office.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Like yeah, yeah, i think that's an interesting.
You know, i work a lot incorporate wellness and that's
very BMI oriented And it isreally interesting because the
more I talk about it, the less Iget invited to talk.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Because they're like no, this is the metric.
We have.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
This is all we have.
Yeah, because conferences Iused to, you know, do probably
for more standard talks.
And then I had a talk of, youknow, wellness without weight
and really looking at if youreally want to help people be
healthier.
There are ways to influencehealth habits that don't have to
do with weight.
And like all these conferencesare like no, no no.
(19:39):
And I'm like Oh, so, but thatlike, because obviously you know
diet culture certainlypermeates all cultures.
So then, even in these decisionmakers, they're like constantly
conflating weight and health.
And yeah, well, how else wouldyou tell if you're healthy?
And I certainly remember, youknow, biometric screenings or
(20:00):
whatever.
And it's like Oh, blood sugaris good, cholesterol good, blood
pressure is good, But BMI.
and it's like, yeah, or itcould just be like things look
good, like you're doing well,keep it up.
Do you have any questions?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, yeah.
it's really interesting to thatwhen you see that there's no
link.
Again, it's like, well, you'reworried about my BMI because the
risk of my heart attack ishigher or the risk of this is
higher, but when you find thosebiometric results and see that
it's not, then why is my weightstill?
a thing Like that doesn't.
(20:37):
that doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Yeah, i'm a big non scale person And I think I just
did a real last week because Iwent to my doctor's office and I
got like stink eye because Ialways decline, you know, in a
perfectly normal, gracious way.
Well, do you feel that you'veperpetuated diet culture, either
consciously or unconsciously?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I'm sure I have.
I think, you know, obviouslythrough the years, like when I
was dieting and when I was, youknow, actively trying to have a
smaller body size, i think I'vefor sure perpetuated it, but I,
ever since I've been aware ofhow damaging it is, i've really
tried to.
You know, i don't comment onpeople's before and after photos
(21:22):
.
I don't comment on people'sbodies at all.
I find other ways to complimentpeople.
I just I make weight the leastinteresting thing about anybody,
and about myself too, yeah,which is oh I, i.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
It just feels so kind , also Because, again, it would
be nice to be noticed for otherthings other than your body.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Well, kind of from that, likewhat messages made you more
aware of diet culture?
Speaker 2 (21:56):
You know, i think, seeing before and afters on
social media I think, you know,the rise of social media was
great and also reallyperpetuated a lot of those
messages and realizing myself,you know, doing that discovery
of like okay, have I ever beenhappier at a smaller body size?
Have I ever been more fulfilledat a smaller body size?
(22:17):
Have I ever, you know, fill inthe blank?
And the answer was always no.
Like were there things thatwere easier?
It was easier to like, buy apair of jeans, like, that's
probably it, that's probably it.
But I wasn't happier, i wasn'tmore fulfilled, i was more
stressed out, i was moreobsessive, restricting, hungry.
So I think realizing the impactit had on me made me, you know,
(22:42):
want to stay away from it andnot, not perpetuate it.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Did like within the MLM, like were there messages or
kind of winks to people thatyou know?
this is something that you needto keep an eye on as well.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I mean the only people who were asked to like
speak on stage all looked acertain way Right.
So it was never outright saidlike, hey, if you don't fit into
a size four or whatever, you'renot going to be asked to speak.
That was never explicitly said,but you could look around and
see that people weren't on stagewho were not a straight size
like you know, small size And Ithink also it.
(23:28):
You know, mlms tend to be theirown closed environments And so
when one person does one thing,a lot of other people do it.
So there were people who wouldparticipate in, like, a diet
program or a fitness challengeor however.
You know you want to putlipstick on a pig and then lots
of other women in the MLM woulddo it Like I really specifically
remember lots of people beingon the exact same diet and
(23:49):
eating the same foods, whichmakes sense.
When you're like replicatingwhat your upline does, you know
you're going to take on reallyanything.
So I did see that a lot.
And also in in the marketing.
I mean the models and marketingand advertisements.
They're all you know thin,straight sized women.
They're not.
There was no body diversity ofany kind Interesting.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
I was wonder, with that closed loop, then if I were
in a larger body would I justnot want to even join?
or if I'm watching, you know,just the smaller people get the
rewards.
Does that make people kind offilter themselves out?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I definitely have heard from people like they see
a photo from the beach orwhatever with a bunch of women
and bikinis and they're like, oh, i don't think I could.
You know, i don't look like youguys, i don't think I could
join you on that trip orwhatever.
So I'm sure that that's a veryinternalized And if you don't
see yourself in something, whywould you want to join it?
(24:50):
But I know, you know I havefriends who were in the
organization, who did live inlarger bodies and They didn't
get asked to speak.
You know they didn't get askedto have their photos taken or
whatever.
So you know, it was definitelya thing.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And if you've been out for a while, are they?
I mean, i've seen other MLMs,like you know, awful ones,
whatever.
The beach body changed to bodyAnd I think they had rebranding
an event And there was like onewoman in a slightly larger body
(25:29):
and a woman of color on stage,when the rest of them that I see
are all small and toxic andmouthy and gross about the way
that they talk about bodies AndI was like is this, like this is
a thing that you guys are doing?
And are people like oh, look atthis diversity, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, yeah.
It's an attempt right To it'sagain.
It's just marketing, it's not.
It's nothing's changing fromthe inside.
I mean, you have to burn thewhole thing down for for that to
happen And that's not happening.
They're just putting a new nameon something because they're
trying to fit into this newworld where people are
recognizing that diet culture istoxic.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yes, well, what shifts have you made that were
helpful to get you to move awayfrom diet culture?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Not having a scale in the house, that's a big thing.
I think the numbers were alwayswhat were you know?
triggering to me.
And even if I felt likewonderful in the morning if that
number didn't say what Ithought it should, you know.
So I just knew for myself, likewhat was the point?
What am I going to do with thatinformation that's going to
change the rest of my day?
(26:41):
Nothing.
So why?
why know it?
Why, why care about it?
And just the fact that, like, nofoods are off limits to me,
because I know for myself thatrestriction and I know for most
people restriction is what youknow leads to binging And I
always considered myself Iconsider myself to have a sweet
tooth.
I like sweets, but when Irestricted them and I did not
(27:06):
allow myself to have them, thenit was, it was like you know,
binge city.
And now if I have them around,it's just they're always
available to me And I know thatI can have what I want.
I don't have to hoard anything,i don't have to be worried that
it's going to be gone later.
So I think those are thebiggest things is just not
having a scale and knowing thatall food is available to me.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
And do you see a reflection with your kids
behavior around food?
because you have it availableall the time that they're like
whatever, yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
And I think that's by design.
I've been very as a parent.
That's the one thing I thinkI've been most worried about is
passing on any of that to them,because I know how early it
started for me And you know Ihad a unique situation with one
of my daughters was a failure tothrive baby.
Just for you know, she'soutgrown it now, but for years
(27:59):
you know, we had to feed herlike weight gain shakes and like
she could eat whatever shewanted, and that was always a
hard dynamic.
When the other kids are like,why can she?
have a milkshake after dinnerAnd I'm like, well, you guys can
have, you know, your own kindof milkshake to, and, you know,
showing just that people havedifferent medical needs, people
have different nutrition needs,everybody's different.
Everybody needs a differentamount of, you know, calories or
(28:19):
whatever, and your body's goingto need different things at
different times.
And so just I was worried at atime where I was like, Oh God,
i'm letting them eat whateverthey want And it's going to be
awful, and it's like now theyhave their own likes, dislikes,
they have.
You know, they've, in myopinion, have a very normal
relationship with food And Ithink it's because nothing was
(28:41):
ever restricted for them, likethey, you know, it's never like
clean your plate, it was neverlike, oh you, if you finish your
dinner, you can have dessert.
It's just like there's cake ifyou want it, like, yeah, you
know.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
I think that really helped And I think that such an
important message because Iworry so much about, you know,
the clean eating because ofcourse you know, i had
orthorexia, you know, and I wasalso raising kids And I was
lucky to have done my thesis ingraduate school and eating
(29:14):
disorders, so I knew enough that, like they had donuts, pop
tarts, like whatever you know,they also had salmon and
broccoli, but they had access,because I see all kinds of like
awful things, like the home editis like Oh, we put the bad
snacks back here.
I'm always like, oh shit, please, i know That's not.
(29:34):
And I think you know, and partof like doing this podcast also
and like having parents listento, how important it is to not,
you know, like ram that downyour kids throat of, like, wait,
what does that have?
And I definitely, as I watchedmy kids get older, you know I
(29:55):
certainly had to go back to themand say you know what?
I was diagnosed with thyroiddisease And tried to eat my way
healthy and didn't.
And that was an eating disorderAnd that's not normal.
So you know it's also nothelpful to be eating separate
foods from your kids too.
But I think that and I had ason who was underweight when he
(30:17):
was older, you know, as ateenager, and he even said
because then it is okay.
Well, here's our weight gainstrategies.
And he said there isn'tanything I ever see that tells
me it's a good idea for me to begaining weight.
It's like.
Oh boy, yeah.
And it's like yeah, where wouldyou see that?
Yeah, yeah.
And so it's like always sointeresting, because I think
(30:39):
kids like kind of reflect themost interesting things back
that you're like Oh shit, you'reright, yeah, there is nothing
that that is saying that Andlet's talk about it now.
you know and kind of likecourse correct some of those
pieces that you know, if they'renot picking it up from us,
(31:00):
they're seeing it everywhereelse.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
I don't even know what they see on social media,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
And I think asking questions is so helpful.
You know, like my daughterwould ask, like you know, is
this healthy for you Or is thisgood for you?
And I'd be like, well, whatdoes good mean to you?
What do you mean?
Well, does it have a lot ofvitamins?
Oh, yeah, that has a lot ofvitamins.
You know, like that has a lotof nutrition.
Or like, is it bad to eat toomany whatever in a day?
too many crackers, too manysomething with like not a lot of
(31:28):
like nutrients or something?
And I'm like, well, it's not somuch that you know it's bad to
eat anything.
Nothing has like value ormorals, but it's like what else
are you eating?
You know, and, and if you know,you really just you don't have
to like over analyze it, but youknow, make sure every week
you're getting some fruits andvegetables and nutrition, and
then then it matters less whenyou eat those things.
(31:48):
Yeah, so focusing more on whatyou are eating instead of
cutting things out was hasalways been my thing.
It's like, yeah, you can have adonut, for sure.
Make sure you're also gettingsomething with vitamins.
Make sure you're also gettingsome protein.
Make sure also, instead ofdon't have that because that's
bad for you Like.
That to me is, yeah, where I.
That's how I feel like I wasraised.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
So great And I think my favorite accounts that I
follow that you know, are RDSthat talk about kids, you know,
are always talking aboutpairings And I love watching
that of like absolutely gummybears, you know, and what
protein would you like to have?
with it And I'm always like oh,that would have been so good.
Yeah, yeah.
(32:33):
So are there any other shiftsaway from diet culture that
you're interested inimplementing in the future?
Speaker 2 (32:42):
I think I just am always open to learning where I
am and where I'm notperpetuating diet culture where
I could do better.
You know, i think, as as moreinformation comes out and we
learn more about health, and youknow we, i think I think it's
just learning.
You know, i don't know what Idon't know, and so I'm always
(33:03):
open to learning more.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Well, what hopes do you have for future generations
in regards to diet culture?
Speaker 2 (33:10):
I really, really hope that you know, especially girls
will will not relate their sizeto their worth And that all
body types will be celebratedand that won't be so
internalized.
It's hard to know as an adult.
Looking now at magazines andads And I see a lot more body
diversity for sure, And I hopethat's helpful.
(33:32):
But I also know there's a lotof messages on social media that
probably aren't that helpful.
So that that's my hope is thatthat kids will grow up knowing
that their the size of theirbody doesn't make them more
interesting or less interestingor smarter or better or whatever
.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Yeah, i think that's.
It will be interesting to watchas they get older, because
they've at least been exposed tothe concept of body diversity
and that not everybody lookslike this.
That, you know, ideal body.
That's what I think, becauseyou know eating disorders are
certainly on the rise And I knowI didn't have any sort of
(34:15):
contrary.
You know it was Cindy Crawfordyou know, and there weren't any
other messages sort of rebuffingthe fact that you could look
the way that you look and thatwas perfectly fine.
So I think it will beinteresting to see what,
incorporating the other messages, and if there's a way that some
(34:39):
of this gets turned down also.
Yeah, but maybe they reject ita little bit more.
Fingers crossed, yeah, let'shope.
Well, if you could recommendone thing for someone who's
trying to move away from dietculture, what would that be?
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Getting rid of the scale, i think, is huge.
I think people keep it aroundlike just in case or whatever.
It's like you do not need toknow how much you weigh for for
any reason, unless you have someagain like dosing thing with
medication or whatever.
Get rid of the scale.
Try to look at labels less.
And I think this is what'sreally hard, because you know,
(35:17):
when I was growing up, there wasno calories when you went to
McDonald's right next to thehamburger.
And now it's like I don't, likeI don't want to know, i don't
want to see that I don't care.
So trying to avoid that as muchas possible and asking yourself
like do I want this?
You know, does this make mybody feel good?
Instead of oh, you know, i gotto check off the number of
(35:37):
calories per day, like trying toget away from those numbers
Because they don't mean anything, they really don't.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yes, i was just talking before this about
exercising.
We're talking about all themetrics and data and all the
things you can look at and howincredibly inaccurate and also
not meaningful And some peoplereally like to bio hack it all
out, and I'm you know is thatcontributing to you feeling
(36:07):
better in your body?
like more in tune with yourbody's messages?
Like right Just pullsconstantly in the way, the same.
Well, you need to be doingsomething different.
You need to be doing somethingmore like this, is it okay?
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah, and I think again it's everything starts
with something well meaning,like, yep, move your body in
ways that you love, like that'sgreat.
Oh, i love to walk, okay, great.
Well, i'm going to get a stepcounter And I'm going to do a
10,000 steps a day, and now, ifI don't get 10,000 steps, i have
anxiety.
It's like you create thenanother problem when, again, it
should.
You should be moving toenjoyable ways that make you
(36:43):
feel good, not ways that makeyou feel like you're not doing
enough.
You know, yeah, it's like weruin everything.
Yeah, with, with, diet culture.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah, and I think that is the biggest kind of the
questions of like then why am Idoing this?
you know, asking, and I think alot of it is, you know, just
true obedience of like.
Well then, this will keep me.
The scale keeps me on track,you know, knowing my steps keeps
me on track of like.
What is this?
you know, is this track track,you know, is this help me?
(37:12):
Yeah, and I think you knowthere just aren't a lot of
questions because, again, therearen't a lot of sources of that
question.
Who is ever telling you of,like no, you don't have to
participate in that like what?
So, except for me and you, yeah, well, it was really nice
(37:33):
talking to you, because I don'tknow what it is.
I enjoy an angry anti MLM voicealmost over so many others.
What?
because one it's sticking upfor women, because you know,
women are certainly the mostharmed by these organizations,
you know, and there's neverenough room for sass in my day.
(37:56):
Also, because I also do applaudyou, because I know there's
there's got to be tremendousblowback that comes from you
with your fancy opinions overthere.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Oh yeah, there is, But there's more people who
reach out and thank me or say,wow, this really opened my eyes,
or wow, I'm really glad to hearsomeone else having gone
through that that it makes ittotally worth it.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Oh, that's fantastic.
Well, even outside of, i'venever been involved in one.
I'm out.
I have several accounts that Ifollow and I really always like
your content because I'm likeyeah, exactly Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Take that Exactly.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Well, where can people find you?
Speaker 2 (38:46):
So I'm on pretty much all platforms at Emily Lynn
Paulson And, again, I do have abook coming out May 30th.
Depending on when this airs,it's either out or not out yet,
but it is called Hey Huns Sale,Sisterhood, Supremacy and the
other lies behind multi-levelmarketing.
And, yeah, I'd love to reachout, I'd love to hear what you
think about the book And I'dlove to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Great.
Well, i hope people do look,because I found you through Roe
House a while ago, yourpublisher, and so I always get
excited about their booksbecause I'm like, ooh,
somebody's going to be mad aboutthis.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
They're all about disruptive stories, which I love
, which is why I was able towrite about it.
So that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Well, best of luck with your launch And I'm sure
your book is going to do great.
I'm excited to Excited to readit myself.
Thank you so much.
All right, take care, okay, bye.
Thanks so much for listening totoday's episode of the Air We
Breathe podcast.
I would love it if you wouldfollow or subscribe to the pod.
(39:51):
That way you'll get the newestepisodes right when they come
out.
Also, please feel free to leavea five star review and let me
know what you think about thepodcast.
Take care.
Hi and welcome to The Air We Breathe.
I'm your host, heatherSayers-Laman.
I'm a certified intuitiveeating counselor, national Board
Certified Health and WellnessCoach, certified personal
trainer and weight-inclusivewell-being program consultant.
The Air We Breathe is a podcastsharing stories of individual
experiences in diet culture.
Some guests have recentlybecome aware of diet culture,
(00:23):
while others are well-versed inthe impact and have created a
career in advocacy and equity.
No story is more worthy thananother.
The goal is to help peopleunderstand that they are not
alone in their struggles, andthe systems that create these
issues impact us all.
This podcast contains talkabout eating disorders and
disordered eating.
(00:43):
We do minimize mentions ofspecific behaviors and numbers,
but it's still a topicnonetheless.
There also could be some swearsand or adult language here.
Choose wisely if those areproblematic for you.
So I'm here today with EmilyPaulson And Emily, why don't you
just jump right in and tell mea little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Sure, so I am an author.
I have a book I wrote aboutthree years ago and another
that's coming out in three weeks, and I run a group called Sober
Mom Squad for Moms in Recovery.
So I'm a recovery advocate.
I'm also a mom of five, a wife,and, yeah, all of that in my
vast spare time.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Hmm, absolutely I can imagine how much spare time you
have.
I was really interested inhaving you here because I'm so
interested in kind of thethrough lines with diet culture
and then MLM culture, but alsokind of like the boozy mom
culture I don't know if you havea name for that.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, wine mom culture or mommy wine culture.
Yeah, i think the through lineis they're all trying to fill
the same need, like there's thisidea that we have to do it all
and we're not doing enough, andthere's this elusive like thing
that we're missing And we havethis need to escape and we don't
(02:11):
have a village, and so we'reoffered these really crappy
solutions that don't fixanything.
We're offered alcohol to likenumb us, and we're offered diets
to distract us and make usthink that our smaller bodies
will be better, and we have MLMsthat promise us utopia and
(02:31):
financial freedom and theyactually have a 99.7% failure
rate.
So I think it's this.
It all stems from this lack ofhaving actual, reasonable
supports for women and moms inour country.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
It absolutely makes so much sense.
And I think when I joinedFacebook so I've been off of
Facebook, I think since 2017cause I was like this is a
dumpster fire.
But I was on it for a while andreally enjoyed it And some of
the things I thought were mostpeculiar are the things you talk
about, And I will say I grew upwith an alcoholic mother, So
(03:10):
the cute Rose all day anddrinking wine I always, you know
, hit me a little different,cause I was like, yeah, I don't
know that that is as cute as youthink it is.
It's so impactful on your kidsAnd it's also really interesting
.
My kids are gonna, say, 20 and22.
(03:34):
Now, I just forgot how old myson was And my 20 year old when
he was a teenager.
We have these sort offamily-ish functions on a
different side And he said to mehe said you know, you're the
only adult that doesn't drinkand drink a lot at these
functions, And it is not aconversation.
(03:56):
They have known they come fromalcoholism.
This is something we watch outfor And I thought it was so
interesting that he was so awareof the drinking that was going
on around him.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah, yeah, i mean, kids see and know so much more
than you give them credit for.
It's you know, they absorb allthe messages they get from the
media and TV shows.
And then you know we tell themlike don't drink, don't drink,
don't do drugs, and then we justingest alcohol at every event,
(04:31):
every social function, everybirthday party, and it's the
mixed messaging that can bereally damaging, and it's really
not a matter of whether youdrink or not.
That's one thing I always say.
It's like you don't have to bea sober person to have an
impactful, really good,meaningful conversation with
your kids.
It's you know, are you talkingabout it at all?
(04:51):
And a lot of parents are afraidto talk about it because they
don't want to confront their ownusage.
They don't want to wonder whatthat says about them, that they
can't go to a brunch withouthaving a mimosa, that they can't
have a Super Bowl party withouthaving a keg, and that's
uncomfortable, Interesting, AndI also, like Facebook,
(05:11):
introduced me to kind of MLMs,which I used to be solely in
fitness.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
And you know, I moved into health coaching And I
thought it was like the wildestthing, like people, because I
actually owned a gym at the timeAnd people were like Hey, hey,
hun, Did you want to?
And it was all this beach bodystuff, And I was so perplexed I
was like I don't even understand, like to your point of the 99%,
(05:40):
Like how does this even makesense?
And like then you want me tohave a job as, like DMing people
and selling them shakes, Like Idon't.
You know I'm very snootyMcSnoodyerson about my master's
in exercise science, And so,like, looking at that whole
thing, I was like so now you'rea coach, like you used to be a
(06:02):
bank teller but now you're afitness coach.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yep, Yeah, you bought a business kit And now you're a
health coach.
Like how does that work?
Yeah, there's no training, novetting.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Right, yeah, so very, very interesting.
So I always like find the spacevery interesting because it has
been a head scratcher to me fora while.
Yeah Well, tell me yourunderstanding of diet culture.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I think.
for me, it's this overarchingbelief that our size or the
foods we eat should dictate,like our worth and our ability
to get services, healthcare,jobs and be treated the same as
everybody else.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yes, So much, what is your first memory or your first
experience of diet culture?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
My very first memory was in sixth grade And I
remember this vividly because Idon't remember up to that point
ever really understandingdieting or why people would lose
weight or anything like that.
you know, i just ate food andwas blissfully unaware of any of
that.
And yet I was in the 80s whenthere was dexatrim and slim fast
(07:13):
and it was.
I knew about it, but we hadmandatory, you know, weigh-ins
every year with a school nurseright in elementary school, and
I happened to have lost fivepounds from the year before.
you know who knows, hadn'tgrown like who knows why.
I didn't think about it, ididn't care.
And I just mentioned it to afriend and I was like, oh, yeah,
(07:33):
i lost five pounds from lastyear.
And she grabbed my shouldersand she looked at me and she was
like, oh, my God,congratulations, good job.
And that was my first, you know.
I was like, why is shecongratulating me?
And then it was like, oh,that's a good thing to weigh
less.
And I really internalize that,i really remember that.
(07:54):
And that is when I then reallystarted noticing like, oh, we
have slim fast in the cabinet.
or, you know, there's all thesediet programs and workout
videos, and you know, then as Igot older and middle school and
high school, it was the VictoriaSecret catalogs, and so that's,
that was really what I thinkopened my eyes to it as a child.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Interesting.
I always think it's so becausefor most people I talk to it's
some comment in some way,because really, a sixth grader
losing five pounds over a yearas a cause for alarm of like, oh
, is there a growth problem?
Or, you know, is there an issue?
So it's really interesting, andalso like from a fellow sixth
(08:36):
grader that she had internalizedthat message enough to know.
Like, this is the goal, This iswhat we're going for, yeah,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Well, in what ways do you think diet culture has been
the most damaging for you?
I think again.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
It was really in my high school and college years
that there was a very onedimensional standard of beauty.
You know, around the late 90sIt was again like the Victoria
Secret model the very thin, longtorso, no body fat, huge boobs,
look natural very natural.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yes, very natural.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
And that's what I really wanted to strive for And
that's when I started, you know,trying different diets And you
know I did like the whole Atkinsthing And you know it.
Just, it began my, i think,really just the orthorexia of
knowing how many calories andeverything and and over
exercising.
(09:36):
That was really, i think it wasthe visual of.
There was only one standard ofbeauty shown in the media,
magazines, anywhere.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yes, Well, is there?
are there any ways that youfeel like diet culture was
beneficial for you?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
I mean, i guess, in a hindsight, like I did learn a
lot about nutrition, like like Ilearned and I don't know that
this is necessarily a good thingbut I learned about what
carbohydrates were And even if Ididn't understand really the
good and bad about them, it wasmore an oh how can I lose weight
(10:14):
way.
But I knew what vegetables hadvitamin A in them and what
vegetables had fiber, and so I Isought out to learn more, but I
think my intention was towardsweight loss and not necessarily
any type of health.
But I, but I still learned itall the same.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, which I think is interesting.
Like, as a coach, i certainly,when somebody comes to me, i
don't really generally questiontheir knowledge.
I feel like you probably knowmore than you would ever need to
know.
And you also have all of thisconflicting information about
(10:53):
you know, just about fiber, like, oh no, it really needs to be
here.
Oh no, you know you're going todie if it's only here.
I mean, you know these likewildly different messages, but I
do think that that is like suchan interesting side effect.
One is that everybody is anexpert but that just in your
spare time, instead of learninga new hobby or anything like
(11:15):
that, you're just like well,maybe I should be memorizing all
of this data.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, and I think learning really early that these
things are always changing.
I mean, you remember, likesnack wells, the whole craze of
like low fat, everything was lowfat, no fat, and so the goal
was like to find foods with nofat, low fat, but they had a ton
of sugar in them.
So, and then they were like, oh, no, that's not good, now you
(11:42):
don't want sugar.
And now, oh, eggs are bad.
No, now eggs are good.
I mean I can't tell you howmany things went back and forth
that I finally kind of startedto realize like maybe none of
this actually matters, maybenobody knows anything, and we're
just like throwing spaghetti ona wall to see what sticks.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, and I think that's the.
I mean, you know it's a zerosum game.
There is no winning in dietculture, because even if you're
like nailing my nutrition doingso well, it's like well, what
about your hydration?
Are you doing enough of that?
Are the?
are your supplements the rightsupplements, or what about this
spot?
I mean, there's alwayssomething else that you need to
(12:20):
be striving to change or perfect, certainly in everything that I
ever see.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, yeah, there's never a good enough.
It's.
you know well.
what about the seed oils you'reusing And what about?
it's like wait, what do youmean?
And and and a lot of the.
you know I had got my degree inchemistry And so a lot of the
things I started seeing after Igraduated from college were very
much in conflict with thethings I understood about
(12:48):
science.
And I'm like okay, so peopleare extrapolating these really
really bizarre studies that aredone on rats that actually
didn't amount to anything Andthey're extrapolating them to
everybody.
Like you know, red wine is goodfor you, like that whole thing.
that's actually not true.
And you know, aspartame causescancer and all of these things
(13:09):
that you know.
again, i think things startwith like a shred of truth and a
shred of evidence, but nothingever comes of it And people just
blow it up to serve their needto sell you products.
That's.
I really started seeing that itwas all just marketing.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Oh, that's nice that you had the the heads up.
Yeah, maybe this isn't true.
Yeah, well, tell me about.
Obviously you were in.
Well, how long were you in theMLM that you were in?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Almost seven years Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
So then, what presence did diet culture play
within that environment?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, So the particular MLM I was involved in
wasn't a health product MLM, Itwas like a skincare beauty
brand.
So it definitely perpetuatedyou know, the ideal beauty
standards.
Still, like all of the modelswere all still thin and, you
know, conventionally attractive.
Most of the consultants werewhite, thin, conventionally
(14:10):
attractive, right.
So there was still like a moldof diet culture within that
model.
So I think it was.
it was more just it kind ofbastardized what was already
present in the culture And youknow, MLM people tend to really
support other MLM people and MLMproducts.
(14:33):
So there was a lot of crossover.
Like I purchased, you know,essential oils from MLMs and I
purchased the cleanses and stufffrom MLM.
So I think there's a lot ofcrossover there And I think,
beyond that, I think MLMs reallyhit all the pain points of
motherhood.
And you know, hey, you'relonely, Here's an option for you
(14:53):
.
Oh, you need money, Here's anoption for you.
You need to lose baby weight?
Here's an option for you.
And it packages it all together.
No matter what the products are, It's all about just finding
something that fits.
And I think diet culture is areally sinister way to do that
And a really sinister way thatMLMs do that.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yes, i definitely think diet culture preys on that
vulnerability of being a womanone, and that your body may have
changed too, and that obviouslyyour moral imperative is to get
that body back, if not betterthan it was Before.
And I feel like that dietculture messaging is, like it
(15:37):
means, so wildly pervasive thatobviously we celebrate oh, she
snapped back, and I could seehow that would really kind of
having that message intertwinedwith the no community And
certainly nobody's saying like,yeah, your body would change
after having a kid And when youget to menopause, like your body
will probably change again, andlike that's okay, that's what
(15:57):
happens, that there's it feelslike and you could tell me it
feels like within thosecommunities that nobody's saying
that there's always some kindof intervention that you need to
be doing.
Oh, yeah, you always need to beimproving yourself.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Like you're never.
I think that the overarchingmessage is that you're never
good enough as you are.
There's something that you canbe approving, whether it's
improving, whether it's yourlooks or your finances, or your
social network, or you know.
Whatever It's that you're justnot good enough on your own.
And instead of figuring out howdo we embrace ourselves and how
do we love ourselves as we are,or just recognize that how we
(16:37):
look has nothing to do with howsuccessful or happy we are,
Let's, you know, make this intosomething we can purchase and
package Yikes which I mean it'sso easy to look around and see
all of those different piecesBecause I think I've been an
entrepreneur for, you know, over20 some years, and that sort of
(16:57):
hustle culture.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Again, it's like you know, are you, are you doing
something about this?
It's like you know they're allinto the tap dancing.
that you know you need to bespending more plates doing more,
and then you'll reach yourfinal destination of massive
worthiness.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, what sources of dietculture do you feel are the most
(17:23):
persistent and influential?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I think the messages are still, the size of your body
is equal to health or equal toworth.
I think that's something that'sjust people don't even realize.
Realize how much theyinternalize that message.
You know when, when you seesomeone and they've lost weight,
you know you're like tocongratulate them instead of
(17:45):
thinking, oh no, i hope they'reokay.
I wonder if they've been sick,or maybe they've had a
miscarriage, or you know, maybethey're getting cancer treatment
, or maybe there's no reason,maybe their body's just changed
for no reason, but that it'sthat smaller is better and
bigger.
There must be a problem, right,that ultimately, there must be
(18:05):
something wrong with the body.
And the whole thought of likethat, like the obesity epidemic
which is there's so much to that, that is just junk science,
that people just come indifferent body sizes and it that
(18:29):
really doesn't equate to theirhealth.
So, yeah, i think, though, thisconstant push to like know what
people weigh and know their BMI, and it's like, when we really
investigate, like where did thateven come from and why is that
a thing And there's really nolike scientific, medical basis
to it, other than like givingmedication at the right dose,
(18:49):
other than that, like you reallyshouldn't need to go get
weighed at the doctor's office.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Like yeah, yeah, i think that's an interesting.
You know, i work a lot incorporate wellness and that's
very BMI oriented And it isreally interesting because the
more I talk about it, the less Iget invited to talk.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Because they're like no, this is the metric.
We have.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
This is all we have.
Yeah, because conferences Iused to, you know, do probably
for more standard talks.
And then I had a talk of, youknow, wellness without weight
and really looking at if youreally want to help people be
healthier.
There are ways to influencehealth habits that don't have to
do with weight.
And like all these conferencesare like no, no no.
(19:39):
And I'm like Oh, so, but thatlike, because obviously you know
diet culture certainlypermeates all cultures.
So then, even in these decisionmakers, they're like constantly
conflating weight and health.
And yeah, well, how else wouldyou tell if you're healthy?
And I certainly remember, youknow, biometric screenings or
(20:00):
whatever.
And it's like Oh, blood sugaris good, cholesterol good, blood
pressure is good, But BMI.
and it's like, yeah, or itcould just be like things look
good, like you're doing well,keep it up.
Do you have any questions?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, yeah.
it's really interesting to thatwhen you see that there's no
link.
Again, it's like, well, you'reworried about my BMI because the
risk of my heart attack ishigher or the risk of this is
higher, but when you find thosebiometric results and see that
it's not, then why is my weightstill?
a thing Like that doesn't.
(20:37):
that doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Yeah, i'm a big non scale person And I think I just
did a real last week because Iwent to my doctor's office and I
got like stink eye because Ialways decline, you know, in a
perfectly normal, gracious way.
Well, do you feel that you'veperpetuated diet culture, either
consciously or unconsciously?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I'm sure I have.
I think, you know, obviouslythrough the years, like when I
was dieting and when I was, youknow, actively trying to have a
smaller body size, i think I'vefor sure perpetuated it, but I,
ever since I've been aware ofhow damaging it is, i've really
tried to.
You know, i don't comment onpeople's before and after photos
(21:22):
.
I don't comment on people'sbodies at all.
I find other ways to complimentpeople.
I just I make weight the leastinteresting thing about anybody,
and about myself too, yeah,which is oh I, i.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
It just feels so kind , also Because, again, it would
be nice to be noticed for otherthings other than your body.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Well, kind of from that, likewhat messages made you more
aware of diet culture?
Speaker 2 (21:56):
You know, i think, seeing before and afters on
social media I think, you know,the rise of social media was
great and also reallyperpetuated a lot of those
messages and realizing myself,you know, doing that discovery
of like okay, have I ever beenhappier at a smaller body size?
Have I ever been more fulfilledat a smaller body size?
(22:17):
Have I ever, you know, fill inthe blank?
And the answer was always no.
Like were there things thatwere easier?
It was easier to like, buy apair of jeans, like, that's
probably it, that's probably it.
But I wasn't happier, i wasn'tmore fulfilled, i was more
stressed out, i was moreobsessive, restricting, hungry.
So I think realizing the impactit had on me made me, you know,
(22:42):
want to stay away from it andnot, not perpetuate it.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Did like within the MLM, like were there messages or
kind of winks to people thatyou know?
this is something that you needto keep an eye on as well.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I mean the only people who were asked to like
speak on stage all looked acertain way Right.
So it was never outright saidlike, hey, if you don't fit into
a size four or whatever, you'renot going to be asked to speak.
That was never explicitly said,but you could look around and
see that people weren't on stagewho were not a straight size
like you know, small size And Ithink also it.
(23:28):
You know, mlms tend to be theirown closed environments And so
when one person does one thing,a lot of other people do it.
So there were people who wouldparticipate in, like, a diet
program or a fitness challengeor however.
You know you want to putlipstick on a pig and then lots
of other women in the MLM woulddo it Like I really specifically
remember lots of people beingon the exact same diet and
(23:49):
eating the same foods, whichmakes sense.
When you're like replicatingwhat your upline does, you know
you're going to take on reallyanything.
So I did see that a lot.
And also in in the marketing.
I mean the models and marketingand advertisements.
They're all you know thin,straight sized women.
They're not.
There was no body diversity ofany kind Interesting.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
I was wonder, with that closed loop, then if I were
in a larger body would I justnot want to even join?
or if I'm watching, you know,just the smaller people get the
rewards.
Does that make people kind offilter themselves out?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I definitely have heard from people like they see
a photo from the beach orwhatever with a bunch of women
and bikinis and they're like, oh, i don't think I could.
You know, i don't look like youguys, i don't think I could
join you on that trip orwhatever.
So I'm sure that that's a veryinternalized And if you don't
see yourself in something, whywould you want to join it?
(24:50):
But I know, you know I havefriends who were in the
organization, who did live inlarger bodies and They didn't
get asked to speak.
You know they didn't get askedto have their photos taken or
whatever.
So you know, it was definitelya thing.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And if you've been out for a while, are they?
I mean, i've seen other MLMs,like you know, awful ones,
whatever.
The beach body changed to bodyAnd I think they had rebranding
an event And there was like onewoman in a slightly larger body
(25:29):
and a woman of color on stage,when the rest of them that I see
are all small and toxic andmouthy and gross about the way
that they talk about bodies AndI was like is this, like this is
a thing that you guys are doing?
And are people like oh, look atthis diversity, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, yeah.
It's an attempt right To it'sagain.
It's just marketing, it's not.
It's nothing's changing fromthe inside.
I mean, you have to burn thewhole thing down for for that to
happen And that's not happening.
They're just putting a new nameon something because they're
trying to fit into this newworld where people are
recognizing that diet culture istoxic.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yes, well, what shifts have you made that were
helpful to get you to move awayfrom diet culture?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Not having a scale in the house, that's a big thing.
I think the numbers were alwayswhat were you know?
triggering to me.
And even if I felt likewonderful in the morning if that
number didn't say what Ithought it should, you know.
So I just knew for myself, likewhat was the point?
What am I going to do with thatinformation that's going to
change the rest of my day?
(26:41):
Nothing.
So why?
why know it?
Why, why care about it?
And just the fact that, like, nofoods are off limits to me,
because I know for myself thatrestriction and I know for most
people restriction is what youknow leads to binging And I
always considered myself Iconsider myself to have a sweet
tooth.
I like sweets, but when Irestricted them and I did not
(27:06):
allow myself to have them, thenit was, it was like you know,
binge city.
And now if I have them around,it's just they're always
available to me And I know thatI can have what I want.
I don't have to hoard anything,i don't have to be worried that
it's going to be gone later.
So I think those are thebiggest things is just not
having a scale and knowing thatall food is available to me.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
And do you see a reflection with your kids
behavior around food?
because you have it availableall the time that they're like
whatever, yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
And I think that's by design.
I've been very as a parent.
That's the one thing I thinkI've been most worried about is
passing on any of that to them,because I know how early it
started for me And you know Ihad a unique situation with one
of my daughters was a failure tothrive baby.
Just for you know, she'soutgrown it now, but for years
(27:59):
you know, we had to feed herlike weight gain shakes and like
she could eat whatever shewanted, and that was always a
hard dynamic.
When the other kids are like,why can she?
have a milkshake after dinnerAnd I'm like, well, you guys can
have, you know, your own kindof milkshake to, and, you know,
showing just that people havedifferent medical needs, people
have different nutrition needs,everybody's different.
Everybody needs a differentamount of, you know, calories or
(28:19):
whatever, and your body's goingto need different things at
different times.
And so just I was worried at atime where I was like, Oh God,
i'm letting them eat whateverthey want And it's going to be
awful, and it's like now theyhave their own likes, dislikes,
they have.
You know, they've, in myopinion, have a very normal
relationship with food And Ithink it's because nothing was
(28:41):
ever restricted for them, likethey, you know, it's never like
clean your plate, it was neverlike, oh you, if you finish your
dinner, you can have dessert.
It's just like there's cake ifyou want it, like, yeah, you
know.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
I think that really helped And I think that such an
important message because Iworry so much about, you know,
the clean eating because ofcourse you know, i had
orthorexia, you know, and I wasalso raising kids And I was
lucky to have done my thesis ingraduate school and eating
(29:14):
disorders, so I knew enough that, like they had donuts, pop
tarts, like whatever you know,they also had salmon and
broccoli, but they had access,because I see all kinds of like
awful things, like the home editis like Oh, we put the bad
snacks back here.
I'm always like, oh shit, please, i know That's not.
(29:34):
And I think you know, and partof like doing this podcast also
and like having parents listento, how important it is to not,
you know, like ram that downyour kids throat of, like, wait,
what does that have?
And I definitely, as I watchedmy kids get older, you know I
(29:55):
certainly had to go back to themand say you know what?
I was diagnosed with thyroiddisease And tried to eat my way
healthy and didn't.
And that was an eating disorderAnd that's not normal.
So you know it's also nothelpful to be eating separate
foods from your kids too.
But I think that and I had ason who was underweight when he
(30:17):
was older, you know, as ateenager, and he even said
because then it is okay.
Well, here's our weight gainstrategies.
And he said there isn'tanything I ever see that tells
me it's a good idea for me to begaining weight.
It's like.
Oh boy, yeah.
And it's like yeah, where wouldyou see that?
Yeah, yeah.
And so it's like always sointeresting, because I think
(30:39):
kids like kind of reflect themost interesting things back
that you're like Oh shit, you'reright, yeah, there is nothing
that that is saying that Andlet's talk about it now.
you know and kind of likecourse correct some of those
pieces that you know, if they'renot picking it up from us,
(31:00):
they're seeing it everywhereelse.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
I don't even know what they see on social media,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
And I think asking questions is so helpful.
You know, like my daughterwould ask, like you know, is
this healthy for you Or is thisgood for you?
And I'd be like, well, whatdoes good mean to you?
What do you mean?
Well, does it have a lot ofvitamins?
Oh, yeah, that has a lot ofvitamins.
You know, like that has a lotof nutrition.
Or like, is it bad to eat toomany whatever in a day?
too many crackers, too manysomething with like not a lot of
(31:28):
like nutrients or something?
And I'm like, well, it's not somuch that you know it's bad to
eat anything.
Nothing has like value ormorals, but it's like what else
are you eating?
You know, and, and if you know,you really just you don't have
to like over analyze it, but youknow, make sure every week
you're getting some fruits andvegetables and nutrition, and
then then it matters less whenyou eat those things.
(31:48):
Yeah, so focusing more on whatyou are eating instead of
cutting things out was hasalways been my thing.
It's like, yeah, you can have adonut, for sure.
Make sure you're also gettingsomething with vitamins.
Make sure you're also gettingsome protein.
Make sure also, instead ofdon't have that because that's
bad for you Like.
That to me is, yeah, where I.
That's how I feel like I wasraised.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
So great And I think my favorite accounts that I
follow that you know, are RDSthat talk about kids, you know,
are always talking aboutpairings And I love watching
that of like absolutely gummybears, you know, and what
protein would you like to have?
with it And I'm always like oh,that would have been so good.
Yeah, yeah.
(32:33):
So are there any other shiftsaway from diet culture that
you're interested inimplementing in the future?
Speaker 2 (32:42):
I think I just am always open to learning where I
am and where I'm notperpetuating diet culture where
I could do better.
You know, i think, as as moreinformation comes out and we
learn more about health, and youknow we, i think I think it's
just learning.
You know, i don't know what Idon't know, and so I'm always
(33:03):
open to learning more.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Well, what hopes do you have for future generations
in regards to diet culture?
Speaker 2 (33:10):
I really, really hope that you know, especially girls
will will not relate their sizeto their worth And that all
body types will be celebratedand that won't be so
internalized.
It's hard to know as an adult.
Looking now at magazines andads And I see a lot more body
diversity for sure, And I hopethat's helpful.
(33:32):
But I also know there's a lotof messages on social media that
probably aren't that helpful.
So that that's my hope is thatthat kids will grow up knowing
that their the size of theirbody doesn't make them more
interesting or less interestingor smarter or better or whatever
.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Yeah, i think that's.
It will be interesting to watchas they get older, because
they've at least been exposed tothe concept of body diversity
and that not everybody lookslike this.
That, you know, ideal body.
That's what I think, becauseyou know eating disorders are
certainly on the rise And I knowI didn't have any sort of
(34:15):
contrary.
You know it was Cindy Crawfordyou know, and there weren't any
other messages sort of rebuffingthe fact that you could look
the way that you look and thatwas perfectly fine.
So I think it will beinteresting to see what,
incorporating the other messages, and if there's a way that some
(34:39):
of this gets turned down also.
Yeah, but maybe they reject ita little bit more.
Fingers crossed, yeah, let'shope.
Well, if you could recommendone thing for someone who's
trying to move away from dietculture, what would that be?
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Getting rid of the scale, i think, is huge.
I think people keep it aroundlike just in case or whatever.
It's like you do not need toknow how much you weigh for for
any reason, unless you have someagain like dosing thing with
medication or whatever.
Get rid of the scale.
Try to look at labels less.
And I think this is what'sreally hard, because you know,
(35:17):
when I was growing up, there wasno calories when you went to
McDonald's right next to thehamburger.
And now it's like I don't, likeI don't want to know, i don't
want to see that I don't care.
So trying to avoid that as muchas possible and asking yourself
like do I want this?
You know, does this make mybody feel good?
Instead of oh, you know, i gotto check off the number of
(35:37):
calories per day, like trying toget away from those numbers
Because they don't mean anything, they really don't.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yes, i was just talking before this about
exercising.
We're talking about all themetrics and data and all the
things you can look at and howincredibly inaccurate and also
not meaningful And some peoplereally like to bio hack it all
out, and I'm you know is thatcontributing to you feeling
(36:07):
better in your body?
like more in tune with yourbody's messages?
Like right Just pullsconstantly in the way, the same.
Well, you need to be doingsomething different.
You need to be doing somethingmore like this, is it okay?
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah, and I think again it's everything starts
with something well meaning,like, yep, move your body in
ways that you love, like that'sgreat.
Oh, i love to walk, okay, great.
Well, i'm going to get a stepcounter And I'm going to do a
10,000 steps a day, and now, ifI don't get 10,000 steps, i have
anxiety.
It's like you create thenanother problem when, again, it
should.
You should be moving toenjoyable ways that make you
(36:43):
feel good, not ways that makeyou feel like you're not doing
enough.
You know, yeah, it's like weruin everything.
Yeah, with, with, diet culture.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah, and I think that is the biggest kind of the
questions of like then why am Idoing this?
you know, asking, and I think alot of it is, you know, just
true obedience of like.
Well then, this will keep me.
The scale keeps me on track,you know, knowing my steps keeps
me on track of like.
What is this?
you know, is this track track,you know, is this help me?
(37:12):
Yeah, and I think you knowthere just aren't a lot of
questions because, again, therearen't a lot of sources of that
question.
Who is ever telling you of,like no, you don't have to
participate in that like what?
So, except for me and you, yeah, well, it was really nice
(37:33):
talking to you, because I don'tknow what it is.
I enjoy an angry anti MLM voicealmost over so many others.
What?
because one it's sticking upfor women, because you know,
women are certainly the mostharmed by these organizations,
you know, and there's neverenough room for sass in my day.
(37:56):
Also, because I also do applaudyou, because I know there's
there's got to be tremendousblowback that comes from you
with your fancy opinions overthere.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Oh yeah, there is, But there's more people who
reach out and thank me or say,wow, this really opened my eyes,
or wow, I'm really glad to hearsomeone else having gone
through that that it makes ittotally worth it.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Oh, that's fantastic.
Well, even outside of, i'venever been involved in one.
I'm out.
I have several accounts that Ifollow and I really always like
your content because I'm likeyeah, exactly Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Take that Exactly.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Well, where can people find you?
Speaker 2 (38:46):
So I'm on pretty much all platforms at Emily Lynn
Paulson And, again, I do have abook coming out May 30th.
Depending on when this airs,it's either out or not out yet,
but it is called Hey Huns Sale,Sisterhood, Supremacy and the
other lies behind multi-levelmarketing.
And, yeah, I'd love to reachout, I'd love to hear what you
think about the book And I'dlove to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Great.
Well, i hope people do look,because I found you through Roe
House a while ago, yourpublisher, and so I always get
excited about their booksbecause I'm like, ooh,
somebody's going to be mad aboutthis.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
They're all about disruptive stories, which I love
, which is why I was able towrite about it.
So that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Well, best of luck with your launch And I'm sure
your book is going to do great.
I'm excited to Excited to readit myself.
Thank you so much.
All right, take care, okay, bye.
Thanks so much for listening totoday's episode of the Air We
Breathe podcast.
I would love it if you wouldfollow or subscribe to the pod.
(39:51):
That way you'll get the newestepisodes right when they come
out.
Also, please feel free to leavea five star review and let me
know what you think about thepodcast.
Take care.
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