Have you ever felt trapped in a cycle of dieting and discontent with your eating habits? 🔄
Today on the pod, I am joined by Leah Kern, a unique voice in the field of intuitive eating.
As an anti-diet dietitian and certified intuitive eating counselor, Leah brings a spiritual approach to her practice, a perspective that I was eager to explore. ✨
Our conversation delves into Leah’s personal journey, from her initial struggles with disordered eating to her path of healing through community and intuitive eating.
Dieting and disordered eating can be an incredibly lonely place, and finding a community to support you in your journey is essential.
Leah talks about the friendships that she built that helped her along the way.
I asked Leah what she thinks is the biggest challenge for people to tune into their own messages and how they are feeling.
Leah described the biggest challenge as making that initial switch, tuning out the people who are telling you what to do, what to eat, and how to exercise, and tuning into yourself and what you want.
Part of making that switch is using the universal attunement question, which Leah walks through with me at the end of the episode.
Leah also has a free panel on June 6th. She will discuss some of the common struggles going into the summer through the lens of food. You can find that free panel HERE.
I hope that you enjoy this discussion with Leah as much as I did!
Resources:
Intuitive Eating, 4th Edition Paperback by RDN Evelyn Tribole, MS (Author), RDN Elyse Resch, MS (Author): https://www.amazon.com/Intuitive-Eating-4th-Anti-Diet-Revolutionary/dp/1250255198
Leah’s podcast episode with her friends: https://pod.link/1616910063/episode/a3e84d318abb96a86f43a1913eacec8a
Christy Harrison’s podcast: https://rethinkingwellness.substack.com/
The Summer Support- Anti-diet Panel: https://leahkernrd.kartra.com/page/PNb36
Leah’s Website: https://leahkernrd.com/
Leah’s Substack: https://leahkern.substack.com/
…..
Don’t know how to start effectively journaling? 📖
Download your free 3D Journaling Guide here: https://heathersayerslehman.com/journal/
Ready to improve your self-care game? 💕
Download 3 Foundational Meta-Skills for Healthy Living that Lasts here: https://heathersayerslehman.com/meta-skills/
Trying to figure out if a program or activity will actually promote healthy behavior change? 🙋🏻♀️
Download Keys to Promoting Health Sustaining Behaviors here: https://overcomingu.com/white-paper/
Looking for a personal health coach, well-being speaker, or health education for employees? 🙌🏼
Visit https://heathersayerslehman.com/work-with-me/ for more information.
Need support overcoming emotional eating? Work through my guidebook, , Don’t Eat It. DEAL With It! Second Edition: Your Guidebook on How to STOP Eating Your Emotions, to create a healthier relationship with food. ✍🏼
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
what would feel good for me, what am I craving?
What sounds nice?
What would be satisfying?
What does my body feel like?
I think that is one kind oflike thing right in the
beginning, to answer thisquestion of like that is so
foreign to people, of like waitwhat I can, actually go inwards
and trust my own messages.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hi and welcome to the Air we Breathe, finding
wellbeing that works for you.
I'm your host, heatherSayers-Layman.
I'm a National Board CertifiedHealth and Wellness Coach,
certified Intuitive EatingCounselor and Certified Personal
Trainer.
I help you get organized andconsistent with healthy habits,
without rules, obsession orexhaustion.
This podcast may contain talkabout eating disorders and
(00:44):
disordered eating.
There could also be some adultlanguage here.
Choose wisely if those areproblematic for you.
Hi everyone and welcome totoday's episode.
I'm chatting with Leah Kern,who's a registered dietitian and
(01:05):
certified intuitive eatingcounselor, and I really wanted
to speak to Leah because shetakes a more spiritual approach
to intuitive eating.
I'm kind of pragmatic andpractical and I really wanted to
chat with her to hear moreabout her approach, which I
think ultimately is the same butjust a different wrapper of
(01:29):
really how to tune out a lot ofthe other noise and tune into
ourselves.
So I wanted to know more aboutthat.
And we chat about how she gotinto nutrition, which is the
same for so many of us.
We were trying to figure outhow to fix our own bodies and
luckily she had some influencethat helped her move away.
(01:51):
From that perspective, we'regoing to talk about two key
relationships that she had thatchanged her outlook on bodies
and her relationship with food,and I really wanted to know from
her what the biggest challengewas that keeps people from
really tuning in, and I wantedto know her solution and what
she really thinks helps, and Ithink that you'll find that
(02:14):
pretty interesting too.
Without further ado, here is myepisode with Leah.
Well, I'm very excited to behere with Leah Kern today, and,
leah, why don't you just jump inand give us an introduction?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
So I am an anti-diet dietitianand certified intuitive eating
counselor and also human who hasstruggled with my own story,
with my relationship with foodand body.
I feel like it's such a commonway into this world.
But I went to school to becomea dietician from a totally
(02:50):
disordered place.
Looking back, I did not realizethat in the moment I was like,
okay, I'm going to learn how toperfect nutrition, I'm going to
get a bachelor's and become anRD and then I'll figure all this
out.
And I didn't learn how to eatperfectly.
I learned that there was no wayto eat perfectly that's not a
thing and I also learned that Iwas struggling with disordered
(03:11):
eating unknowingly.
I was really lucky to have anundergrad mentor.
The director of dietetics whereI went to school, the
University of Vermont, was adietitian and certified
intuitive eating counselor,which was sort of rare-ish at
the time.
A lot of my colleagues who I'vespoken to have gotten very much
(03:33):
like the weight-centric dietculture, education to become a
dietitian and then had to like,unlearn and relearn on their own
after you know, getting intothe field.
But that wasn't my story.
I really learned aboutintuitive eating early on and my
life was so changed by theframework and by the anti-diet
(03:54):
health at every size approach.
It just felt so much morealigned with my values and my
whole body was like, yes, thisis exactly it.
And I just knew I wanted to dosomething with this framework
one day.
So I kind of got through myeducation as a dietitian and the
(04:16):
dietetic internship, which is alot of more weight centric ways
of viewing things, but I justkind of you know, smile, nodded,
got through it, took the testand then I pretty much started
my practice immediately and nowI work with folks to help them
heal their relationship withfood and body in a one-to-one
(04:38):
setting and have a course and apodcast and all different ways
of reaching people.
And it really feels I say thisall the time and it just feels
like the exact work I was put onearth to do and I'm really
grateful truly every day thatit's the exact work that I get
to do.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
It's really interesting because I don't know
that I have heard anyone saythat they had somebody during
their undergrad tell them likehang on, like there's a
different way of looking at this.
I feel like almost everybody.
I mean, certainly it was myexperience in school that it was
(05:15):
extremely weight centric, but Ifeel like you might be the
first person I've talked tothat's had that experience.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah, it definitely is more rare.
I think it's becoming less rareand it wasn't like 100% weight
neutral, anti-diet education atall.
But my professor, the head ofdietetics where I went to school
, was in the process of sort oflike transitioning the
curriculum to be fully weightinclusive at the time and I
(05:44):
think only you know in the lastI mean I don't even I don't even
know if she's there yet, causeit's a lot to like overhaul
curriculum and professors andmanaging people with a lot of
tenure who are extremely weightcentric.
In some cases their, theirwhole research, their whole
career could be based around,you know, obesity research or
something like this.
But I feel really lucky and I'mstill in close contact with
(06:08):
that professor.
She's been on my podcast morethan once and, yeah, I just feel
so grateful that I learnedabout this work so early on in
my education because I know itcould have looked really
different education, because Iknow it could have looked really
different, Absolutely so, doyou feel like then you started
(06:31):
healing your relationship withfood and your body while you
were actually in school.
Totally, it was a combination ofso I learned about.
I heard the words intuitiveeating for the first time my
freshman year we had this class.
It was called survey of thefield and it was where they had
different dietitians indifferent parts of the field.
Come in and talk to us andshare with us about their
careers, because you can do somany different things as a
(06:53):
dietitian.
It can look so many differentways.
And this one week a woman camein and she said I have a private
practice.
I'm an intuitive eatingdietitian.
And that was the first I hadever heard those words in that
order and I just was like socaptivated by this.
And at the end of her littlepresentation she's like if you
(07:14):
want to learn more about theintuitive eating framework, like
I recommend this book, and putsup a picture of the intuitive
eating book on the screen and Iwas like I need to get my hands
on this immediately.
I went right to the library fromthat class on the way back to
my dorm, got the book, devouredit like on the top bunk of my
little, like forced triple in mydorm, and that was the start of
(07:38):
healing.
But it wasn't just reading thebook.
It was reading the book plus aneducation in food science and,
like nutritional chemistry,biochemistry, it changed the way
I thought about food, becausewhen I was really struggling
with disordered eating, food wasnumbers, food was morality, it
(08:01):
was good, it was bad, but thisreally objective education, in a
way it was like, oh, a carb isliterally just like a chain of
hydrated carbons.
It just made me see it in moreof a detached way instead of all
of the baggage that I hadwrapped up with it, and so that
was part of healing.
(08:21):
And then another part ofhealing was the friends I met in
college.
I was extremely blessed in thatmy two best girlfriends from
college are somehow, weresomehow at the time, completely
untouched by diet culture.
I mean not completely, no oneis completely untouched but like
(08:42):
, as far as two teenage girlsliving in this country is
completely untouched, but likeas far as two teenage girls
living in this country can beuntouched, they were, and that
was so healing for me.
Like I have so many stories andmemories of just like being
with them and being like, oh,they don't force themselves to
exercise every single day.
They'll just like have a cookieand like, oh, what's the
(09:05):
special in the in the dininghall today?
Oh, that looks good, let's havethat instead of like up right
to the salad bar, like that'sthe only choice here.
And that was so eye-opening forme and I was like, oh, they're
fine, they're eating whateverand they're fine like I could
too.
And so it was reading theintuitive eating book, starting
(09:28):
my education and just likelearning about food really
objectively, and also thesefriendships that I had formed in
college.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Wow that's.
I think it's so interestingbecause I think that one piece
that I really talk about is howimportant community is and how
easy it is to form a communityaround hating your body or
changing your body, because thatis like a Tuesday in our
culture, but finding people andum, and also being that person
(10:10):
that's like, yeah, oh, they havedonuts.
Good, okay, I'm gonna have adonut and you know, even if
other people like aren't superinterested, but then your
healthy relationship with food,it's actually modeled out
totally for other people.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
I never heard these two girls, who are still my best
friends to to this day.
I never heard them speak badlyabout their body ever, and or
food, or like oh, I'm being bad,or I shouldn't literally never,
and like that is feels unheardof in, especially for women,
young women yeah, what.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
What's going on like in their households?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Were their parents just likereally neutral I have a podcast
episode with both of them.
So also every summer we do thesebig hiking trips together.
We're hiking the AppalachianTrail like section by section.
So a few summers ago we did theNew Hampshire section and I had
them on the podcast after andwe talked about it and I asked
(11:08):
them about their story withtheir relationship with food and
body.
But yeah, pretty much they grewup with neutral talk around
food Households.
All foods were there, therewere snacks, there was fun foods
.
They grew up with parents whoweren't dieting or at least like
overtly talking about theirfood and body.
(11:30):
One of them grew up with threebrothers, which I think actually
they both grew up with onlybrothers.
So I think that helps.
I just not to say men areimmune to this stuff, but I do
think it changes things whenthere's a lot of like woman in
comparison and there's extrapressure on women with
appearance and bodies.
So, yeah, I mean that's kind oflike the short answer, but
(11:52):
there's more layers and I'mhappy to give you the link to
the episode where I dive in moredeep with them and their
stories, because it isinteresting to kind of reverse
engineer and say like how didthis happen?
How did you really stay soprotected from diet culture.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, I think that's of great interest to a lot of
people because, I mean, my kidsare, you know, now 21 and 23 and
I have friends that their kidsare older and we're like, okay,
well, how do we fix what we did?
And I'm always interested to,and I think I was luckier to
(12:29):
have studied eating disordersbefore I had kids.
So there were things that Imean they were all foods fit.
You know I was eating, you know, like only the things that I
could eat over here and theycould eat anything.
So that is impactful anddamaging in and of itself.
But they did have thatexperience.
And I think there are so manypeople that are really curious
(12:50):
about like, what should I do?
And I think you know there arereally like fundamental things
that it takes a while to peelthe onion of, like, oh my gosh,
like I didn't realize I wasdoing that or I didn't do that.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
But I'm not a mom yet , but I think the best thing you
can do is work on your ownrelationship with food, because
kids feel it, they're spongesand they notice.
And I know both of these bestfriends, their mothers, like you
know deeply.
I've spent a lot of time withthem and they both, just like,
have normal relationships withfood that's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, I definitely had to go back and do a lot of
like, explaining of like, when Iwas doing this.
I thought it was for health.
Um, then it became unhealthyand and I think, like those
frank conversations are reallyhelpful with kids as well um it,
it's a lot of a lot of watersthat get very muddied too.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Um.
So in your approach tointuitive eating, um, I feel
like I see a bit more of aspiritual like really tuning in
um from some other.
You know I'm a pretty pragmatic, practical person and so I want
to hear you talk more aboutthat piece.
(14:13):
And because, again, some peoplelike practical, some people
like spiritual, some people, youknow, really like a combo, but
how did that come up more foryou?
And then how do you weave thatinto your practice?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Totally so.
It came up more for me becauseit resonates with how I relate
to the world and when I wasstarting to build my private
practice, I was thinking a lotabout who would be the type of
provider or practitioner ordietitian that I would have
(14:51):
wanted to see when I was in thedepths of my own struggles with
disordered eating and body image, and I would have wanted to see
someone like me, someone whorecognized like that this work
is so much deeper than just food.
It's like food is really justthe tip of the iceberg.
(15:11):
There's so much more there.
So that was really the momentwhere I remember at the time I
was I no longer use Instagram asa marketing channel, but that's
how I started my business and Iremember like going into my
settings, my profile, and beinglike spiritual, intuitive,
eating dietitian.
Okay, like yeah, I think thatmakes sense.
There was a bit of a moment ofhaving to kind of get over my
(15:35):
own ego, because part of me waslike I hate that.
I'm like self-identifying thisway.
But I also wanted to dosomething that someone who has
those similar values andconnects to the world in that
way could see themselves in meand my work and could find me.
So that was, you know, anatural way to do it is to
(15:55):
identify that in my profile.
So that was a natural way to do.
It is to identify that in myprofile.
So the way that I explain thisis there's this great, great
quote.
It's on my website and it's alonger quote, but the end of the
quote is something like to bespiritual is to be amazed, and
(16:15):
that's how I view spirituality.
That's really simply how I viewit.
I'm not so into like crystalsor anything really beyond.
Like I think to be spiritual isto be amazed and to like
constantly bring life back toawe and wonder, because we can
so easily lose sight of that andhow this relates to food and
(16:36):
body.
When we're in the throes ofdisordered eating, we're not
accessing awe and wonder andamazement.
We're just like trying to, youknow, fighting for our lives.
Like that might sound dramatic,but like every day is like
calculations and likeself-objectifying.
How do I, how do people imaginethat I'm?
You know, how am I imaginingpeople are perceiving me right
(16:59):
now when I'm like walking, arethey?
Do I look bad?
Do I look?
Is this jiggling?
And it just takes us so out of.
Oh my God, like look at thattree and those pine cones and
how beautifully they're likewoven in each other, or like, oh
, the sun on my face.
Or this like beautiful littlemoment that I just observed on
(17:19):
the subway, where these peopleare being so human and
connecting in this sweet way.
All of that especially in atleast in my story and for many
of the clients I've spoken towas not accessible for me for so
many years and I would like Ihad this deep sense of like I'm
missing out on something Like Ifelt like other people were
(17:41):
reaping more joy from life thanme and I just like couldn't
really explain it.
And after doing this work andkind of getting over the hump of
it, I was like, oh my God, likeI like smell the sense in
nature more and I'm more likepresent and willing to just like
sit here with my feet in thegrass and just be, because I
(18:04):
felt more comfortable physicallyand like I was nourished and I
had the mental real estate tothink about just wonders and awe
and basic things in the worldthat, like I had previously just
kind of walked by.
And so to me, the experience ofhealing your relationship with
food and really coming home toyour body is innately spiritual.
(18:28):
Like I just think there'snothing more to it.
Like my program doesn't includecrystals or you know, aura
readings or anything that likemaybe you think about when you
think about spiritual.
It's just that we talk aboutthat realm, we take it there, we
talk about it.
That's really the extent of it.
To me, it is spiritual in andof itself.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
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improving your healthy habitsdoes nothing except feel
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You don't need more rules,influencers or structured
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Let me help you discover whatyou want, what works for you and
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(19:16):
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I think that it's so lovelybecause I know from certainly my
(19:38):
experience, I know the loss ofconnection really with
relationships was one of thethings that when I look back to
because being alone makes iteasier than I can eat what I
want or not eat what I want, andthere's so much isolation that
(20:01):
surrounds disordered eating andthat you don't, I don't, I
didn't notice, I thought it wasgood, you know like, oh my gosh,
look at me, I'm all by myselfand I can do what I want, and
it's like so it's also lonelyand you're not connecting with
other people on a meaningfullevel.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Yeah, yeah.
And then I think about, like,the social determinants of
health and how social andcommunity context and social
cohesion is part of whatdetermines our health outcomes.
So like we think, oh, we'rebeing so good and healthy by
saying no to that social eventand staying home and gnawing on
our raw lettuce.
But like no, actually likethat's health is more than just
(20:41):
food.
Like lack of connection impactsyour health.
And I want to add, too, part ofhow I got into this niche of
really identifying myself as aspiritual, intuitive eating
dietitian, I came to realizethat there's sort of this
pipeline into disordered eatingthat starts with like I'm a
(21:05):
spiritual person, like my bodyis a temple, I only eat clean,
and like that whole world canquickly lead to the wellness
kind of flavor of disorderedeating.
And I really saw that in Vermont, where I went to college.
It was sort of a wellness-y vibethere and so that became a
(21:28):
niche that I became interestedin and that was also part of my
story.
Like I was really in high school, more so I was like I just I
think I was just moreimpressionable, of course, and
susceptible as a younger teenand I totally fell into like I
remember being on Pinterest andlike following all these like
kind of like spiritual women,these like nature-y women and
(21:49):
being like whoa, I want to belike them and they only eat raw,
whole foods, and it just canquickly kind of lead you to a
disordered place.
And so part of identifyingmyself as a spiritual, intuitive
eating dietitian is kind ofnodding towards those folks and
saying you know, I see you,that's part of your story and
(22:10):
you don't have to only eat wholefoods to like have spiritual
harmony within yourself.
You know, like actually that'sprobably causing more of a
disruption to your internalharmony than you know, allowing
all foods and having foodfreedom.
So that's part of definingmyself this way as well as kind
(22:35):
of hoping to bring those folksin and allowing them to still
have their identity as aspiritual person honored, while
also moving towards healing andlike actual well-being it must
be such a relief to them to hearthat message I hope so.
Yeah, I hope so.
Um, I have heard a little bit.
I had someone reach out to me,actually on Christy Harrison's
(22:57):
podcast, which we were chattingabout before we hit record.
I spoke a little bit about myjourney, starting an SSRI for
anxiety and how diet culture wasreally something that got in
the way for me to take thosesteps for a while Because, like
you and I were saying before wehit record, it was like, oh well
(23:17):
, if I could just heal myself, Icould just heal my anxiety with
exercise and food, which for me, those things wouldn't hold a
candle to the level of anxiety Iwas feeling.
And I had someone reach out tome after that episode went live
saying like I've never heardanyone talk about identifying as
a spiritual person and a personwho takes, you know, like
(23:38):
modern medicine in a way, youknow like a modern approach in
the same breath, and that feltgood to help someone see like,
yeah, you can be both.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, I think the binaries that are present in all
sort of like you, you know,community making endeavors of,
like here is our spiritual crowd, or um, because I would
consider myself almost like ashill for big pharma, because I
would be dead without big pharmaand um, and they've also
(24:13):
created catastrophic issueswithin our society, and so I
think, like trying to helppeople see that, like you don't
have to have all of these thingsto belong to this group, I mean
that the most important thingis that you're belonging to
yourself and you are unique andyou have different issues and
(24:35):
different interests, and itdoesn't have to look like what
everybody else looks likeAbsolutely yeah, when you are.
I mean because obviously peopleare probably drawn to your
message and they want to reallytune in.
What do you think the biggestchallenge is?
Sometimes for people to startlooking within, like not trying
(24:58):
to find a leader outside ofthemselves, like considering
themselves a leader andlistening to their own messages.
What do you think like is thebiggest challenge for people
when it comes to that?
Speaker 1 (25:09):
The biggest challenge is switching gears, like
literally like turning the radiostation from the one that's
like.
Switching gears like literallylike turning the radio station
from the one that's like, oh,okay, this book says, do this.
This person on you know, onOprah that I saw this doctor
said do this.
Or like this influencer saideat this many X foods and
exercise.
Like this, switching from thatlike gear or like, I guess,
(25:31):
radio station is the metaphorthat's coming to my mind to your
own internal station whereyou're like, oh, what feels good
for me?
How would I like to eat or move, or, beyond food and movement,
like values and decision-making,like, is this a person I want
to spend my time with?
Is this a I don't know activitythat I enjoy?
(25:52):
Am I just doing this because Ithink I'm supposed to somehow?
I think just that initial switchis so hard because our neural
pathways are like really deeplyentrenched in okay, when I'm
faced with a eating decision, Iresort to what should I do?
What am I supposed to do?
What are all the rules thatI've heard over the years?
(26:13):
And so kind of sending theneuron down that new path of
like what would feel good for me?
What am I craving, what soundsnice, what would be satisfying,
what does my body feel like?
I think that is one kind of likething right in the beginning,
to answer this question of likethat is so foreign to people, of
like wait what, I can actuallygo inwards and trust my own
(26:38):
messages.
And then there's a whole otherlayer from there of okay, so how
do I go inwards, like if you'vebeen ignoring the inner voices
for so long which in so many ofmy clients I'm sure the same for
you, it's been decades for someof them of outsourcing eating
decisions, it's like thosevoices, it's just like white
(26:59):
noise.
They don't even, they don'tregister.
So it's a lot of intentionallylike flexing the muscle of
dropping in, and I think of itlike exercising, like literally
getting reps in to strengthenthat ability to go inwards and
hear your body, its cues, itsmessages.
So yeah, to answer yourquestion, I think the first
(27:20):
piece is just switching gearscan feel so foreign and take so
much effort because we're usedto doing the things we're used
to doing from like a neuralpathway level.
And the second piece is, onceyou've switched gears, how do
you then actually flex thatmuscle of dropping in that can
be so vague and intangible topeople who are used to like the
concrete rules coming from abook or a diet or an influencer
(27:44):
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
I think when you talk about it, it totally reminds me
of, like the different timesduring my life where, like, I
was the adult and it's know whenyou first step into it and it
still happens, you know, into my50s, because then, with your
parents getting older, thenyou're like oh, am I in charge?
Oh, shit.
Switching gears, yeah, let mesee, um, but just of all of
(28:10):
those different choices that youmake, you know, as you kind of
grow up and you're like well,what do you want to do?
Like, oh well, this seems broad.
Are there any kind of likeactivities or mantras or cues
that you use with people to helpthem tap in or to change that
(28:34):
station?
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, are you familiar with the universal
attunement question?
Okay, so I love this.
The universal attunementquestion is a question that has
three choices for answers, soI'll do it with you, just to
kind of model.
The question is how are youfeeling physically right now in
your body?
(28:55):
Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral?
I would say neutral right now.
Okay, so what happened from thetime that I asked that question
to the time that you saidneutral?
What happened for you to kindof derive that answer?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
I'm having a bit of a girdy day so I like really did
like a kind of like a body scan,and also yesterday was leg day,
so my legs are really sore, butI was like it's a gird that's
bugging me, so I just tappedinto.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
You know how everything felt like from tip to
tail.
Yeah, so that's it right there.
Like this question makes youthere's no other way to answer
the question except for to dothat body scan.
So it's like a way to manuallyflex that muscle of dropping in.
And the cool thing is, you knowthe answer doesn't matter, of
course, like it's not fun tohave GERD.
I'm sorry you're not feelingmore pleasant, but the truth is
(29:54):
the answer doesn't matter.
What matters is the moment thatyou go inwards and sort of like
roll your eyeballs back intoyour head and like sense what's
going on in there and that inthat moment you're like doing a
rep of flexing the muscle ofdropping in.
So I love doing that withclients and making a big deal of
it of like you can do this,like look, you just did it, you
(30:16):
had to figure, you had to feel.
So that's kind of like thefirst step I like to take.
And then there's different kindof activities to more kind of
fine tune the sensations,because it starts with just like
a general sensing of likepleasant, unpleasant, neutral.
Those are pretty broad strokes,but then you can get into, like
using the hunger fullness scale, like okay, where, specifically
(30:39):
on here, are you in terms oflike one to ten your nuanced
level of hunger and fullness,and then from there you can even
get more granular and talkabout, like are you craving like
a carb, protein, fat, fiber?
Which combination of thosethings are you craving?
And a lot of people in thebeginning of this work are like
you think I can get to a placewhere I can be like, oh, I'm
(31:00):
craving, like carb and fat rightnow and like that seems crazy,
especially coming from a historyof never thinking about what
you're craving.
But you really can, like I'vehad so many clients be like, oh,
I realized my meal was missingfat today, like that's why I
wasn't really satisfied.
So you can get to a place whereit's that fine tuned.
(31:25):
It just takes time and practiceand you know, especially if
you've been years or decades indiet culture it takes patience.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Yeah Well, I think that's a great step because I
think the the lore of dietculture with the rules because
it's.
I think the the lore of dietculture with the rules because
it's.
I think it feels overwhelmingfor people to like, tune in,
like is this another thing Ineed to do?
And like, oh, I'm already tired, I don't feel great or whatever
(31:50):
.
And I think really illuminatingthat it's not that hard or it's
not going to be thatoverwhelming yeah, not even that
.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
It's not that hard or it's not going to be that
overwhelming yeah, not even thatit's not that hard, but that we
can make this tangible too,because I think people are drawn
to diets because they're so eatthis, do this.
It's so like prescribed andintuitive.
Eating is never going to beprescribed, but we can still
have structure where it's likeokay, here's a way that you can
drop in that's, you know,concrete and defined.
(32:18):
It's not just like check inwith your body and like that's
the only thing we have to sayhere, like no, there's tools and
techniques that go along withit to give it some structure,
because it can all sound sovague.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
No, I think you're exactly right, and I have had
friends who were working ontheir relationship that felt the
same, and they're also, youknow, like.
My son is a math major atuniversity, so he is a
spreadsheet, so talking aboutcertain things he's like I don't
even know what you're talkingabout.
(32:53):
But putting things into aformat and that's the biggest
piece is, you know, everybody'sso different, they hear things
differently, and understandingthere's like there are ways that
you can hear a message thatseems more like to your point.
I like that you use the termtangible.
Yeah Well, I know you've got abig panel coming up, and so I'm
(33:20):
hoping that people listen tothis right away so that they're
able to catch it.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat you have going on.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah.
So on June 6th I'm hosting afree panel, so it's myself and
three other anti-diet providers,professionals, and it's called
the Summer Support Anti-DietPanel.
So the goal is really to givefolks extra support going into
the summer, which can be anespecially triggering time, a
(33:49):
time when diet culture messagingreally ramps up.
I feel like diet culturemessaging will take any
opportunity to be loud, like newyear, new you, summer, get your
summer body.
Summer is just one of thosetimes.
So the panel is myself, so I'llbring the food side relationship
of food, talking about some ofthe common struggles going into
(34:12):
the summer through the lens offood.
And then Daisy Gillespie, who'san anti-diet personal stylist
and, I think you said formerguest on this podcast.
So she'll talk about dealingwith switching over your
wardrobe, navigating, dressingyourself, going into summer and
(34:33):
bathing suits and all that.
And then Brie Campos, who is ashe's a body image therapist and
she'll talk about going intosummer through the lens of body
image, which there's so muchthere navigating, sweating,
chafing and like the storiesthat can come with that
comparison and getting in abathing suit and feeling exposed
, all of that.
And then the last panelist isHannah Husband, who is an
(34:55):
anti-diet personal trainer whowill talk about some of the ways
that going into the summer canimpact our relationship with
movement and exercise, andHannah's just a wealth of
knowledge and really I'm excitedfor all the different
perspectives because there's somany niche parts of the
(35:16):
anti-diet world right.
It's more than just like peopledoing the work on relationship
with food, and so my hope isthat this panel will give really
like multifaceted support.
So I'll send you the link toenroll, but it's completely free
and each panelist will givelike a 10 minute presentation
(35:37):
and then there'll be a lot oftime at the end for questions
directed to any or all of thepanelists.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
I think it's great really highlighting all of the
different pieces, because I know, certainly as a health coach
and actually like a boardcertified health coach because
health coach I don't even tendto use that often because it's
so like I don't know, it justfeels smarmy.
Because people go to a weekendcourse and it's like oh my gosh,
(36:06):
you're a health coach and it'slike okay.
But there are other pieces thatare anti-diet besides
registered dietitians, because Iknow that's sort of the biggest
piece.
But diet culture is in all ofthese other facets, facets, and
(36:28):
I love highlighting that thereare people who are ready,
willing and able to help youremove diet culture from these
other pieces of your life too.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yes, totally, and yeah, the event's totally free
and if you can't attend live,you can still sign up and get
the recording, the replay.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Okay, awesome, we'll definitely put a link in the
show notes and then let peopleknow how they can find you.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Absolutely so.
The best place is my website,leahkernrdcom.
On there you can subscribe tomy newsletter, which goes out
every Monday.
I love writing, so that's likea primary form of connecting for
me.
You can subscribe to mynewsletter at leahkernrdcom
slash newsletter.
And then my podcast comes outevery Monday and that is called
(37:10):
Shoulders Down, and you can alsocheck out the podcast at
leahkernrdcom slash podcast.
And then the last thing is apersonal sort of project, which
is I have a sub stack where Ishare more like personal writing
not really related to mybusiness, and that is called the
(37:31):
sub stack.
You can get to through what isit?
Substackcom slash Leo Kern?
Yeah, I think that's it.
Oh, I don't even know.
I should figure that out.
But yeah, I recently decided tomove my business off Instagram.
I still have a profile there ifyou want to see the archives.
(37:52):
It's leahkernrd, but I'm nolonger active there and I have a
piece on my sub stack sharingabout the decision to leave
Instagram.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
So, yeah, those are all the spots and I assume you
feel really happy about leavingand, sir, oh yeah, it's been so
nice it's only been two monthsso far, um, but it feels so
freeing and and there's so much,there's so much.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
it's such a big conversation, um, but I'm really
, I'm really grateful to have,you know, taken the leap and I'm
also grateful to have taken theleap and I'm also grateful to
have had other places ofconnecting with people that I'd
been sort of working so that itwasn't like, okay, now what?
But yeah, it feels great so far.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Super Well, thanks for sharing and I'm happy that
you are here sharing and I'mhappy that you are here and I
really like your message justbecause it's so.
I don't know, I mean, it's justwarm and humanizing.
You know, instead of there areso many pieces that are really I
don't want to say not cool, butthey're just like really
(38:59):
detached of you know, here's athing that was recommended by
this person, this or this person, versus, like you know, the you
piece, because that's what youknow all my courses are based on
like what works for me, becauseit has to work for you, your
lifestyle, your budget, yourtime, your family commitments,
all of those things.
So I love that.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
That's a big piece of your message, thank you thanks
so much for having me and and umfor hosting this conversation.
It's been lovely, great, allright, thanks Bye, heather.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Thanks so much for listening today.
Do you know what would bereally fun?
If you popped over to myInstagram at Heather Sayers
Lehman and dropped me a DM andlet me know what topics you want
me to cover Something buggingyou, something holding you up?
Please just let me know.
And topics you want me to coversomething bugging you,
something holding you up pleasejust let me know and I will
tweak some content and get anepisode out just for you.
(39:51):
As always, please follow show,or you can leave a five-star
review on apple or spotify.
That would be fun too.
See you in the next episode.
what would feel good for me, what am I craving?
What sounds nice?
What would be satisfying?
What does my body feel like?
I think that is one kind oflike thing right in the
beginning, to answer thisquestion of like that is so
foreign to people, of like waitwhat I can, actually go inwards
and trust my own messages.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hi and welcome to the Air we Breathe, finding
wellbeing that works for you.
I'm your host, heatherSayers-Layman.
I'm a National Board CertifiedHealth and Wellness Coach,
certified Intuitive EatingCounselor and Certified Personal
Trainer.
I help you get organized andconsistent with healthy habits,
without rules, obsession orexhaustion.
This podcast may contain talkabout eating disorders and
(00:44):
disordered eating.
There could also be some adultlanguage here.
Choose wisely if those areproblematic for you.
Hi everyone and welcome totoday's episode.
I'm chatting with Leah Kern,who's a registered dietitian and
(01:05):
certified intuitive eatingcounselor, and I really wanted
to speak to Leah because shetakes a more spiritual approach
to intuitive eating.
I'm kind of pragmatic andpractical and I really wanted to
chat with her to hear moreabout her approach, which I
think ultimately is the same butjust a different wrapper of
(01:29):
really how to tune out a lot ofthe other noise and tune into
ourselves.
So I wanted to know more aboutthat.
And we chat about how she gotinto nutrition, which is the
same for so many of us.
We were trying to figure outhow to fix our own bodies and
luckily she had some influencethat helped her move away.
(01:51):
From that perspective, we'regoing to talk about two key
relationships that she had thatchanged her outlook on bodies
and her relationship with food,and I really wanted to know from
her what the biggest challengewas that keeps people from
really tuning in, and I wantedto know her solution and what
she really thinks helps, and Ithink that you'll find that
(02:14):
pretty interesting too.
Without further ado, here is myepisode with Leah.
Well, I'm very excited to behere with Leah Kern today, and,
leah, why don't you just jump inand give us an introduction?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
So I am an anti-diet dietitianand certified intuitive eating
counselor and also human who hasstruggled with my own story,
with my relationship with foodand body.
I feel like it's such a commonway into this world.
But I went to school to becomea dietician from a totally
(02:50):
disordered place.
Looking back, I did not realizethat in the moment I was like,
okay, I'm going to learn how toperfect nutrition, I'm going to
get a bachelor's and become anRD and then I'll figure all this
out.
And I didn't learn how to eatperfectly.
I learned that there was no wayto eat perfectly that's not a
thing and I also learned that Iwas struggling with disordered
(03:11):
eating unknowingly.
I was really lucky to have anundergrad mentor.
The director of dietetics whereI went to school, the
University of Vermont, was adietitian and certified
intuitive eating counselor,which was sort of rare-ish at
the time.
A lot of my colleagues who I'vespoken to have gotten very much
(03:33):
like the weight-centric dietculture, education to become a
dietitian and then had to like,unlearn and relearn on their own
after you know, getting intothe field.
But that wasn't my story.
I really learned aboutintuitive eating early on and my
life was so changed by theframework and by the anti-diet
(03:54):
health at every size approach.
It just felt so much morealigned with my values and my
whole body was like, yes, thisis exactly it.
And I just knew I wanted to dosomething with this framework
one day.
So I kind of got through myeducation as a dietitian and the
(04:16):
dietetic internship, which is alot of more weight centric ways
of viewing things, but I justkind of you know, smile, nodded,
got through it, took the testand then I pretty much started
my practice immediately and nowI work with folks to help them
heal their relationship withfood and body in a one-to-one
(04:38):
setting and have a course and apodcast and all different ways
of reaching people.
And it really feels I say thisall the time and it just feels
like the exact work I was put onearth to do and I'm really
grateful truly every day thatit's the exact work that I get
to do.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
It's really interesting because I don't know
that I have heard anyone saythat they had somebody during
their undergrad tell them likehang on, like there's a
different way of looking at this.
I feel like almost everybody.
I mean, certainly it was myexperience in school that it was
(05:15):
extremely weight centric, but Ifeel like you might be the
first person I've talked tothat's had that experience.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah, it definitely is more rare.
I think it's becoming less rareand it wasn't like 100% weight
neutral, anti-diet education atall.
But my professor, the head ofdietetics where I went to school
, was in the process of sort oflike transitioning the
curriculum to be fully weightinclusive at the time and I
(05:44):
think only you know in the lastI mean I don't even I don't even
know if she's there yet, causeit's a lot to like overhaul
curriculum and professors andmanaging people with a lot of
tenure who are extremely weightcentric.
In some cases their, theirwhole research, their whole
career could be based around,you know, obesity research or
something like this.
But I feel really lucky and I'mstill in close contact with
(06:08):
that professor.
She's been on my podcast morethan once and, yeah, I just feel
so grateful that I learnedabout this work so early on in
my education because I know itcould have looked really
different education, because Iknow it could have looked really
different, Absolutely so, doyou feel like then you started
(06:31):
healing your relationship withfood and your body while you
were actually in school.
Totally, it was a combination ofso I learned about.
I heard the words intuitiveeating for the first time my
freshman year we had this class.
It was called survey of thefield and it was where they had
different dietitians indifferent parts of the field.
Come in and talk to us andshare with us about their
careers, because you can do somany different things as a
(06:53):
dietitian.
It can look so many differentways.
And this one week a woman camein and she said I have a private
practice.
I'm an intuitive eatingdietitian.
And that was the first I hadever heard those words in that
order and I just was like socaptivated by this.
And at the end of her littlepresentation she's like if you
(07:14):
want to learn more about theintuitive eating framework, like
I recommend this book, and putsup a picture of the intuitive
eating book on the screen and Iwas like I need to get my hands
on this immediately.
I went right to the library fromthat class on the way back to
my dorm, got the book, devouredit like on the top bunk of my
little, like forced triple in mydorm, and that was the start of
(07:38):
healing.
But it wasn't just reading thebook.
It was reading the book plus aneducation in food science and,
like nutritional chemistry,biochemistry, it changed the way
I thought about food, becausewhen I was really struggling
with disordered eating, food wasnumbers, food was morality, it
(08:01):
was good, it was bad, but thisreally objective education, in a
way it was like, oh, a carb isliterally just like a chain of
hydrated carbons.
It just made me see it in moreof a detached way instead of all
of the baggage that I hadwrapped up with it, and so that
was part of healing.
(08:21):
And then another part ofhealing was the friends I met in
college.
I was extremely blessed in thatmy two best girlfriends from
college are somehow, weresomehow at the time, completely
untouched by diet culture.
I mean not completely, no oneis completely untouched but like
(08:42):
, as far as two teenage girlsliving in this country is
completely untouched, but likeas far as two teenage girls
living in this country can beuntouched, they were, and that
was so healing for me.
Like I have so many stories andmemories of just like being
with them and being like, oh,they don't force themselves to
exercise every single day.
They'll just like have a cookieand like, oh, what's the
(09:05):
special in the in the dininghall today?
Oh, that looks good, let's havethat instead of like up right
to the salad bar, like that'sthe only choice here.
And that was so eye-opening forme and I was like, oh, they're
fine, they're eating whateverand they're fine like I could
too.
And so it was reading theintuitive eating book, starting
(09:28):
my education and just likelearning about food really
objectively, and also thesefriendships that I had formed in
college.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Wow that's.
I think it's so interestingbecause I think that one piece
that I really talk about is howimportant community is and how
easy it is to form a communityaround hating your body or
changing your body, because thatis like a Tuesday in our
culture, but finding people andum, and also being that person
(10:10):
that's like, yeah, oh, they havedonuts.
Good, okay, I'm gonna have adonut and you know, even if
other people like aren't superinterested, but then your
healthy relationship with food,it's actually modeled out
totally for other people.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
I never heard these two girls, who are still my best
friends to to this day.
I never heard them speak badlyabout their body ever, and or
food, or like oh, I'm being bad,or I shouldn't literally never,
and like that is feels unheardof in, especially for women,
young women yeah, what.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
What's going on like in their households?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Were their parents just likereally neutral I have a podcast
episode with both of them.
So also every summer we do thesebig hiking trips together.
We're hiking the AppalachianTrail like section by section.
So a few summers ago we did theNew Hampshire section and I had
them on the podcast after andwe talked about it and I asked
(11:08):
them about their story withtheir relationship with food and
body.
But yeah, pretty much they grewup with neutral talk around
food Households.
All foods were there, therewere snacks, there was fun foods
.
They grew up with parents whoweren't dieting or at least like
overtly talking about theirfood and body.
(11:30):
One of them grew up with threebrothers, which I think actually
they both grew up with onlybrothers.
So I think that helps.
I just not to say men areimmune to this stuff, but I do
think it changes things whenthere's a lot of like woman in
comparison and there's extrapressure on women with
appearance and bodies.
So, yeah, I mean that's kind oflike the short answer, but
(11:52):
there's more layers and I'mhappy to give you the link to
the episode where I dive in moredeep with them and their
stories, because it isinteresting to kind of reverse
engineer and say like how didthis happen?
How did you really stay soprotected from diet culture.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, I think that's of great interest to a lot of
people because, I mean, my kidsare, you know, now 21 and 23 and
I have friends that their kidsare older and we're like, okay,
well, how do we fix what we did?
And I'm always interested to,and I think I was luckier to
(12:29):
have studied eating disordersbefore I had kids.
So there were things that Imean they were all foods fit.
You know I was eating, you know, like only the things that I
could eat over here and theycould eat anything.
So that is impactful anddamaging in and of itself.
But they did have thatexperience.
And I think there are so manypeople that are really curious
(12:50):
about like, what should I do?
And I think you know there arereally like fundamental things
that it takes a while to peelthe onion of, like, oh my gosh,
like I didn't realize I wasdoing that or I didn't do that.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
But I'm not a mom yet , but I think the best thing you
can do is work on your ownrelationship with food, because
kids feel it, they're spongesand they notice.
And I know both of these bestfriends, their mothers, like you
know deeply.
I've spent a lot of time withthem and they both, just like,
have normal relationships withfood that's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, I definitely had to go back and do a lot of
like, explaining of like, when Iwas doing this.
I thought it was for health.
Um, then it became unhealthyand and I think, like those
frank conversations are reallyhelpful with kids as well um it,
it's a lot of a lot of watersthat get very muddied too.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Um.
So in your approach tointuitive eating, um, I feel
like I see a bit more of aspiritual like really tuning in
um from some other.
You know I'm a pretty pragmatic, practical person and so I want
to hear you talk more aboutthat piece.
(14:13):
And because, again, some peoplelike practical, some people
like spiritual, some people, youknow, really like a combo, but
how did that come up more foryou?
And then how do you weave thatinto your practice?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Totally so.
It came up more for me becauseit resonates with how I relate
to the world and when I wasstarting to build my private
practice, I was thinking a lotabout who would be the type of
provider or practitioner ordietitian that I would have
(14:51):
wanted to see when I was in thedepths of my own struggles with
disordered eating and body image, and I would have wanted to see
someone like me, someone whorecognized like that this work
is so much deeper than just food.
It's like food is really justthe tip of the iceberg.
(15:11):
There's so much more there.
So that was really the momentwhere I remember at the time I
was I no longer use Instagram asa marketing channel, but that's
how I started my business and Iremember like going into my
settings, my profile, and beinglike spiritual, intuitive,
eating dietitian.
Okay, like yeah, I think thatmakes sense.
There was a bit of a moment ofhaving to kind of get over my
(15:35):
own ego, because part of me waslike I hate that.
I'm like self-identifying thisway.
But I also wanted to dosomething that someone who has
those similar values andconnects to the world in that
way could see themselves in meand my work and could find me.
So that was, you know, anatural way to do it is to
(15:55):
identify that in my profile.
So that was a natural way to do.
It is to identify that in myprofile.
So the way that I explain thisis there's this great, great
quote.
It's on my website and it's alonger quote, but the end of the
quote is something like to bespiritual is to be amazed, and
(16:15):
that's how I view spirituality.
That's really simply how I viewit.
I'm not so into like crystalsor anything really beyond.
Like I think to be spiritual isto be amazed and to like
constantly bring life back toawe and wonder, because we can
so easily lose sight of that andhow this relates to food and
(16:36):
body.
When we're in the throes ofdisordered eating, we're not
accessing awe and wonder andamazement.
We're just like trying to, youknow, fighting for our lives.
Like that might sound dramatic,but like every day is like
calculations and likeself-objectifying.
How do I, how do people imaginethat I'm?
You know, how am I imaginingpeople are perceiving me right
(16:59):
now when I'm like walking, arethey?
Do I look bad?
Do I look?
Is this jiggling?
And it just takes us so out of.
Oh my God, like look at thattree and those pine cones and
how beautifully they're likewoven in each other, or like, oh
, the sun on my face.
Or this like beautiful littlemoment that I just observed on
(17:19):
the subway, where these peopleare being so human and
connecting in this sweet way.
All of that especially in atleast in my story and for many
of the clients I've spoken towas not accessible for me for so
many years and I would like Ihad this deep sense of like I'm
missing out on something Like Ifelt like other people were
(17:41):
reaping more joy from life thanme and I just like couldn't
really explain it.
And after doing this work andkind of getting over the hump of
it, I was like, oh my God, likeI like smell the sense in
nature more and I'm more likepresent and willing to just like
sit here with my feet in thegrass and just be, because I
(18:04):
felt more comfortable physicallyand like I was nourished and I
had the mental real estate tothink about just wonders and awe
and basic things in the worldthat, like I had previously just
kind of walked by.
And so to me, the experience ofhealing your relationship with
food and really coming home toyour body is innately spiritual.
(18:28):
Like I just think there'snothing more to it.
Like my program doesn't includecrystals or you know, aura
readings or anything that likemaybe you think about when you
think about spiritual.
It's just that we talk aboutthat realm, we take it there, we
talk about it.
That's really the extent of it.
To me, it is spiritual in andof itself.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Do you feel like the do-it-yourself approach to
improving your healthy habitsdoes nothing except feel
overwhelming, guilt-inducing anddefeating?
You don't need more rules,influencers or structured
programs.
Let me help you discover whatyou want, what works for you and
how to maintain healthy habitsduring the ever-changing
(19:16):
circumstances of your life.
If you're ready to createsystems that stick head to
heathersayerslaymancom backslashhealth dash coaching and click,
let's do it.
I think that it's so lovelybecause I know from certainly my
(19:38):
experience, I know the loss ofconnection really with
relationships was one of thethings that when I look back to
because being alone makes iteasier than I can eat what I
want or not eat what I want, andthere's so much isolation that
(20:01):
surrounds disordered eating andthat you don't, I don't, I
didn't notice, I thought it wasgood, you know like, oh my gosh,
look at me, I'm all by myselfand I can do what I want, and
it's like so it's also lonelyand you're not connecting with
other people on a meaningfullevel.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Yeah, yeah.
And then I think about, like,the social determinants of
health and how social andcommunity context and social
cohesion is part of whatdetermines our health outcomes.
So like we think, oh, we'rebeing so good and healthy by
saying no to that social eventand staying home and gnawing on
our raw lettuce.
But like no, actually likethat's health is more than just
(20:41):
food.
Like lack of connection impactsyour health.
And I want to add, too, part ofhow I got into this niche of
really identifying myself as aspiritual, intuitive eating
dietitian, I came to realizethat there's sort of this
pipeline into disordered eatingthat starts with like I'm a
(21:05):
spiritual person, like my bodyis a temple, I only eat clean,
and like that whole world canquickly lead to the wellness
kind of flavor of disorderedeating.
And I really saw that in Vermont, where I went to college.
It was sort of a wellness-y vibethere and so that became a
(21:28):
niche that I became interestedin and that was also part of my
story.
Like I was really in high school, more so I was like I just I
think I was just moreimpressionable, of course, and
susceptible as a younger teenand I totally fell into like I
remember being on Pinterest andlike following all these like
kind of like spiritual women,these like nature-y women and
(21:49):
being like whoa, I want to belike them and they only eat raw,
whole foods, and it just canquickly kind of lead you to a
disordered place.
And so part of identifyingmyself as a spiritual, intuitive
eating dietitian is kind ofnodding towards those folks and
saying you know, I see you,that's part of your story and
(22:10):
you don't have to only eat wholefoods to like have spiritual
harmony within yourself.
You know, like actually that'sprobably causing more of a
disruption to your internalharmony than you know, allowing
all foods and having foodfreedom.
So that's part of definingmyself this way as well as kind
(22:35):
of hoping to bring those folksin and allowing them to still
have their identity as aspiritual person honored, while
also moving towards healing andlike actual well-being it must
be such a relief to them to hearthat message I hope so.
Yeah, I hope so.
Um, I have heard a little bit.
I had someone reach out to me,actually on Christy Harrison's
(22:57):
podcast, which we were chattingabout before we hit record.
I spoke a little bit about myjourney, starting an SSRI for
anxiety and how diet culture wasreally something that got in
the way for me to take thosesteps for a while Because, like
you and I were saying before wehit record, it was like, oh well
(23:17):
, if I could just heal myself, Icould just heal my anxiety with
exercise and food, which for me, those things wouldn't hold a
candle to the level of anxiety Iwas feeling.
And I had someone reach out tome after that episode went live
saying like I've never heardanyone talk about identifying as
a spiritual person and a personwho takes, you know, like
(23:38):
modern medicine in a way, youknow like a modern approach in
the same breath, and that feltgood to help someone see like,
yeah, you can be both.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, I think the binaries that are present in all
sort of like you, you know,community making endeavors of,
like here is our spiritual crowd, or um, because I would
consider myself almost like ashill for big pharma, because I
would be dead without big pharmaand um, and they've also
(24:13):
created catastrophic issueswithin our society, and so I
think, like trying to helppeople see that, like you don't
have to have all of these thingsto belong to this group, I mean
that the most important thingis that you're belonging to
yourself and you are unique andyou have different issues and
(24:35):
different interests, and itdoesn't have to look like what
everybody else looks likeAbsolutely yeah, when you are.
I mean because obviously peopleare probably drawn to your
message and they want to reallytune in.
What do you think the biggestchallenge is?
Sometimes for people to startlooking within, like not trying
(24:58):
to find a leader outside ofthemselves, like considering
themselves a leader andlistening to their own messages.
What do you think like is thebiggest challenge for people
when it comes to that?
Speaker 1 (25:09):
The biggest challenge is switching gears, like
literally like turning the radiostation from the one that's
like.
Switching gears like literallylike turning the radio station
from the one that's like, oh,okay, this book says, do this.
This person on you know, onOprah that I saw this doctor
said do this.
Or like this influencer saideat this many X foods and
exercise.
Like this, switching from thatlike gear or like, I guess,
(25:31):
radio station is the metaphorthat's coming to my mind to your
own internal station whereyou're like, oh, what feels good
for me?
How would I like to eat or move, or, beyond food and movement,
like values and decision-making,like, is this a person I want
to spend my time with?
Is this a I don't know activitythat I enjoy?
(25:52):
Am I just doing this because Ithink I'm supposed to somehow?
I think just that initial switchis so hard because our neural
pathways are like really deeplyentrenched in okay, when I'm
faced with a eating decision, Iresort to what should I do?
What am I supposed to do?
What are all the rules thatI've heard over the years?
(26:13):
And so kind of sending theneuron down that new path of
like what would feel good for me?
What am I craving, what soundsnice, what would be satisfying,
what does my body feel like?
I think that is one kind of likething right in the beginning,
to answer this question of likethat is so foreign to people, of
like wait what, I can actuallygo inwards and trust my own
(26:38):
messages.
And then there's a whole otherlayer from there of okay, so how
do I go inwards, like if you'vebeen ignoring the inner voices
for so long which in so many ofmy clients I'm sure the same for
you, it's been decades for someof them of outsourcing eating
decisions, it's like thosevoices, it's just like white
(26:59):
noise.
They don't even, they don'tregister.
So it's a lot of intentionallylike flexing the muscle of
dropping in, and I think of itlike exercising, like literally
getting reps in to strengthenthat ability to go inwards and
hear your body, its cues, itsmessages.
So yeah, to answer yourquestion, I think the first
(27:20):
piece is just switching gearscan feel so foreign and take so
much effort because we're usedto doing the things we're used
to doing from like a neuralpathway level.
And the second piece is, onceyou've switched gears, how do
you then actually flex thatmuscle of dropping in that can
be so vague and intangible topeople who are used to like the
concrete rules coming from abook or a diet or an influencer
(27:44):
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
I think when you talk about it, it totally reminds me
of, like the different timesduring my life where, like, I
was the adult and it's know whenyou first step into it and it
still happens, you know, into my50s, because then, with your
parents getting older, thenyou're like oh, am I in charge?
Oh, shit.
Switching gears, yeah, let mesee, um, but just of all of
(28:10):
those different choices that youmake, you know, as you kind of
grow up and you're like well,what do you want to do?
Like, oh well, this seems broad.
Are there any kind of likeactivities or mantras or cues
that you use with people to helpthem tap in or to change that
(28:34):
station?
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, are you familiar with the universal
attunement question?
Okay, so I love this.
The universal attunementquestion is a question that has
three choices for answers, soI'll do it with you, just to
kind of model.
The question is how are youfeeling physically right now in
your body?
(28:55):
Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral?
I would say neutral right now.
Okay, so what happened from thetime that I asked that question
to the time that you saidneutral?
What happened for you to kindof derive that answer?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
I'm having a bit of a girdy day so I like really did
like a kind of like a body scan,and also yesterday was leg day,
so my legs are really sore, butI was like it's a gird that's
bugging me, so I just tappedinto.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
You know how everything felt like from tip to
tail.
Yeah, so that's it right there.
Like this question makes youthere's no other way to answer
the question except for to dothat body scan.
So it's like a way to manuallyflex that muscle of dropping in.
And the cool thing is, you knowthe answer doesn't matter, of
course, like it's not fun tohave GERD.
I'm sorry you're not feelingmore pleasant, but the truth is
(29:54):
the answer doesn't matter.
What matters is the moment thatyou go inwards and sort of like
roll your eyeballs back intoyour head and like sense what's
going on in there and that inthat moment you're like doing a
rep of flexing the muscle ofdropping in.
So I love doing that withclients and making a big deal of
it of like you can do this,like look, you just did it, you
(30:16):
had to figure, you had to feel.
So that's kind of like thefirst step I like to take.
And then there's different kindof activities to more kind of
fine tune the sensations,because it starts with just like
a general sensing of likepleasant, unpleasant, neutral.
Those are pretty broad strokes,but then you can get into, like
using the hunger fullness scale, like okay, where, specifically
(30:39):
on here, are you in terms oflike one to ten your nuanced
level of hunger and fullness,and then from there you can even
get more granular and talkabout, like are you craving like
a carb, protein, fat, fiber?
Which combination of thosethings are you craving?
And a lot of people in thebeginning of this work are like
you think I can get to a placewhere I can be like, oh, I'm
(31:00):
craving, like carb and fat rightnow and like that seems crazy,
especially coming from a historyof never thinking about what
you're craving.
But you really can, like I'vehad so many clients be like, oh,
I realized my meal was missingfat today, like that's why I
wasn't really satisfied.
So you can get to a place whereit's that fine tuned.
(31:25):
It just takes time and practiceand you know, especially if
you've been years or decades indiet culture it takes patience.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Yeah Well, I think that's a great step because I
think the the lore of dietculture with the rules because
it's.
I think the the lore of dietculture with the rules because
it's.
I think it feels overwhelmingfor people to like, tune in,
like is this another thing Ineed to do?
And like, oh, I'm already tired, I don't feel great or whatever
(31:50):
.
And I think really illuminatingthat it's not that hard or it's
not going to be thatoverwhelming yeah, not even that
.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
It's not that hard or it's not going to be that
overwhelming yeah, not even thatit's not that hard, but that we
can make this tangible too,because I think people are drawn
to diets because they're so eatthis, do this.
It's so like prescribed andintuitive.
Eating is never going to beprescribed, but we can still
have structure where it's likeokay, here's a way that you can
drop in that's, you know,concrete and defined.
(32:18):
It's not just like check inwith your body and like that's
the only thing we have to sayhere, like no, there's tools and
techniques that go along withit to give it some structure,
because it can all sound sovague.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
No, I think you're exactly right, and I have had
friends who were working ontheir relationship that felt the
same, and they're also, youknow, like.
My son is a math major atuniversity, so he is a
spreadsheet, so talking aboutcertain things he's like I don't
even know what you're talkingabout.
(32:53):
But putting things into aformat and that's the biggest
piece is, you know, everybody'sso different, they hear things
differently, and understandingthere's like there are ways that
you can hear a message thatseems more like to your point.
I like that you use the termtangible.
Yeah Well, I know you've got abig panel coming up, and so I'm
(33:20):
hoping that people listen tothis right away so that they're
able to catch it.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat you have going on.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah.
So on June 6th I'm hosting afree panel, so it's myself and
three other anti-diet providers,professionals, and it's called
the Summer Support Anti-DietPanel.
So the goal is really to givefolks extra support going into
the summer, which can be anespecially triggering time, a
(33:49):
time when diet culture messagingreally ramps up.
I feel like diet culturemessaging will take any
opportunity to be loud, like newyear, new you, summer, get your
summer body.
Summer is just one of thosetimes.
So the panel is myself, so I'llbring the food side relationship
of food, talking about some ofthe common struggles going into
(34:12):
the summer through the lens offood.
And then Daisy Gillespie, who'san anti-diet personal stylist
and, I think you said formerguest on this podcast.
So she'll talk about dealingwith switching over your
wardrobe, navigating, dressingyourself, going into summer and
(34:33):
bathing suits and all that.
And then Brie Campos, who is ashe's a body image therapist and
she'll talk about going intosummer through the lens of body
image, which there's so muchthere navigating, sweating,
chafing and like the storiesthat can come with that
comparison and getting in abathing suit and feeling exposed
, all of that.
And then the last panelist isHannah Husband, who is an
(34:55):
anti-diet personal trainer whowill talk about some of the ways
that going into the summer canimpact our relationship with
movement and exercise, andHannah's just a wealth of
knowledge and really I'm excitedfor all the different
perspectives because there's somany niche parts of the
(35:16):
anti-diet world right.
It's more than just like peopledoing the work on relationship
with food, and so my hope isthat this panel will give really
like multifaceted support.
So I'll send you the link toenroll, but it's completely free
and each panelist will givelike a 10 minute presentation
(35:37):
and then there'll be a lot oftime at the end for questions
directed to any or all of thepanelists.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
I think it's great really highlighting all of the
different pieces, because I know, certainly as a health coach
and actually like a boardcertified health coach because
health coach I don't even tendto use that often because it's
so like I don't know, it justfeels smarmy.
Because people go to a weekendcourse and it's like oh my gosh,
(36:06):
you're a health coach and it'slike okay.
But there are other pieces thatare anti-diet besides
registered dietitians, because Iknow that's sort of the biggest
piece.
But diet culture is in all ofthese other facets, facets, and
(36:28):
I love highlighting that thereare people who are ready,
willing and able to help youremove diet culture from these
other pieces of your life too.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yes, totally, and yeah, the event's totally free
and if you can't attend live,you can still sign up and get
the recording, the replay.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Okay, awesome, we'll definitely put a link in the
show notes and then let peopleknow how they can find you.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Absolutely so.
The best place is my website,leahkernrdcom.
On there you can subscribe tomy newsletter, which goes out
every Monday.
I love writing, so that's likea primary form of connecting for
me.
You can subscribe to mynewsletter at leahkernrdcom
slash newsletter.
And then my podcast comes outevery Monday and that is called
(37:10):
Shoulders Down, and you can alsocheck out the podcast at
leahkernrdcom slash podcast.
And then the last thing is apersonal sort of project, which
is I have a sub stack where Ishare more like personal writing
not really related to mybusiness, and that is called the
(37:31):
sub stack.
You can get to through what isit?
Substackcom slash Leo Kern?
Yeah, I think that's it.
Oh, I don't even know.
I should figure that out.
But yeah, I recently decided tomove my business off Instagram.
I still have a profile there ifyou want to see the archives.
(37:52):
It's leahkernrd, but I'm nolonger active there and I have a
piece on my sub stack sharingabout the decision to leave
Instagram.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
So, yeah, those are all the spots and I assume you
feel really happy about leavingand, sir, oh yeah, it's been so
nice it's only been two monthsso far, um, but it feels so
freeing and and there's so much,there's so much.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
it's such a big conversation, um, but I'm really
, I'm really grateful to have,you know, taken the leap and I'm
also grateful to have taken theleap and I'm also grateful to
have had other places ofconnecting with people that I'd
been sort of working so that itwasn't like, okay, now what?
But yeah, it feels great so far.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Super Well, thanks for sharing and I'm happy that
you are here sharing and I'mhappy that you are here and I
really like your message justbecause it's so.
I don't know, I mean, it's justwarm and humanizing.
You know, instead of there areso many pieces that are really I
don't want to say not cool, butthey're just like really
(38:59):
detached of you know, here's athing that was recommended by
this person, this or this person, versus, like you know, the you
piece, because that's what youknow all my courses are based on
like what works for me, becauseit has to work for you, your
lifestyle, your budget, yourtime, your family commitments,
all of those things.
So I love that.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
That's a big piece of your message, thank you thanks
so much for having me and and umfor hosting this conversation.
It's been lovely, great, allright, thanks Bye, heather.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Thanks so much for listening today.
Do you know what would bereally fun?
If you popped over to myInstagram at Heather Sayers
Lehman and dropped me a DM andlet me know what topics you want
me to cover Something buggingyou, something holding you up?
Please just let me know.
And topics you want me to coversomething bugging you,
something holding you up pleasejust let me know and I will
tweak some content and get anepisode out just for you.
(39:51):
As always, please follow show,or you can leave a five-star
review on apple or spotify.
That would be fun too.
See you in the next episode.
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